Ok...let me level with you here SE...

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

I really hope and pray that SE does not ignore all these posts all over these boards. If they do, that just shows us one thing, they do not care about it's player base.

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You need to follow other threads a lot more often if you think this is a unique thing happening.

BST's threads, SMN threads, VW threads, etc etc. And these are just the recent ones.

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Originally Posted by Staren

Cuz I read the strategy and I dodge when a mob uses fire spit or weapon toss and tp feed it with clubs?

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I actually just bothered reading this garbage...you really think that works? lol this isnt quake 2, you cant circlestrafe

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Please people stop suggesting killshots. You're going to run into the same problem down the line when there are a handful of 95 relics.
Look at the 95 cap fight, anyone who missed the initial wave is still at 95, or quit because they cant find anyone to do the fight.

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LB is a joke. People who can't finish it aren't going because they don't have the cookie-cutter group for it. If you have someone with an item, just one, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to get a group together. You're comparing this to ADL? Seriously?

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

How about ppl that dont want to upg relic and are needed for kill? they wont be rewarded at all.

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These people are rewarded by not wasting their time. Why would you go to kill an NM you only have a chance at killing for a smaller chance at an item you could sell for less then you are (almost) guaranteed by farming on your own? If I didn't want to upgrade a relic and didn't want other items from ADL I'd farm elsewhere. Hell, if I did want items from an NM like that I'd probably still pass.

Why spend all day fishing when you could just work to buy fish and have money left over? You might not catch any fish at all and you'll be hungry and broke. People never consider the opportunity costs?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

LB is a joke. People who can't finish it aren't going because they don't have the cookie-cutter group for it. If you have someone with an item, just one, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to get a group together. You're comparing this to ADL? Seriously?

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lrn 2 reed

Im comparing it to the fact the fight is being dumbed down further cuz some ppl r stuck

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Originally Posted by Nynja

lrn 2 reed

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I read it again twice, but it still seems like you're comparing LB to ADL.

I agree that a dumbied down LB is ridiculous because it's so easy. The ADL situation is actually complicated enough to deserve it because of the difficulty of the NM compounded by the daily lockout and the fact that only one item drops.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I agree that a dumbied down LB is ridiculous because it's so easy. The ADL situation is actually complicated enough to deserve it because of the difficulty of the NM compounded by the daily lockout and the fact that only one item drops.

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I agree with this, not to mention the high potential for bottleneck and wasting your daily dynamis time fighting to pop. Some have speculated a 3x ??? but honestly .... there is really nothing good about having ADL for this trial.

No longer in the "hot topics". :(

Still have my fingers crossed in hopes there will be a change to the ADL trial. (not expected but you know)

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Originally Posted by Staren

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Supplies_Recovery (debatable)
At 95 my monk and a blue mage and a whm killed all buy one imp before the npcs could get to them.

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You're full of shit...I just tried to 3box this assault. I killed 8/10 imps, and lost the assault with them somehow getting 5 packages to my two. I then did it a second time and got 5/5 packages before they got any.

to say its a skill based assault is a joke

If you killed 8/10 and still lost because they got 5 packages you didn't read the wiki. Any imp they touch is theirs. This is why you position yourself at the top of the cliff and work your way down so you can kill mobs before they even finish with their first. It sounds like the first time you tried, you were fighting the same mobs the NPCs were.

I thought this assault would be a pain in the ass like it was at 75 but it's incredibly easy now.

Luckily, assaults can be discussed in a thread about that topic.

On topic for this thread:

To be completely fair, there may come a time where a perfect strategy for ADL is formed out and the fight becomes nothing but a minor nuisance. In that case, five items wouldn't be horrible.

However, I don't think we should bank on that fact, because in the event ADL remains a permanent ass, five items per person, per relic is going to be murder on a LS's schedule and members.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Luckily, assaults can be discussed in a thread about that topic.

On topic for this thread:

To be completely fair, there may come a time where a perfect strategy for ADL is formed out and the fight becomes nothing but a minor nuisance. In that case, five items wouldn't be horrible.

However, I don't think we should bank on that fact, because in the event ADL remains a permanent ass, five items per person, per relic is going to be murder on a LS's schedule and members.

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Not to mention that most LSs with relics will be hording the pop location. So change it SE.

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

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Except opportunity cost is a perfectly good reason to look at something when it's being done for a product rather than for fun. There is a reason many shells did not bother with HNM camping, and no it had nothing to do with bots. It was simply a horrid waste of time after a certain scale. An 18-man HNMLS may be on standby for 3 hours for a shot at 1 Ebody, but another 18-man LS could use those same 3 hours (54 man-hours) to accumulate enough gil to buy 2-3 Ebodies.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

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People aren't exactly lining up for sagasingers here and dynamis is a HUGE opportunity cost. This isn't like missing out on a bc20 or a vw run that probably wouldn't drop anyway. This a cumulative loss of 2 mil+ a person x 17 (not counting the person who gets the drops for relic)
per run.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

People aren't exactly lining up for sagasingers here and dynamis is a HUGE opportunity cost. This isn't like missing out on a bc20 or a vw run that probably wouldn't drop anyway. This a cumulative loss of 2 mil+ a person x 17 (not counting the person who gets the drops for relic)
per run.

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I'm not by any means supporting this trial. I don't relish the idea of farming ADL for a year or two down the road for the relicholders in my LS. But as I said, can't boil everything down to opportunity cost because every event you do in the game where someone is standing around to help someone else out (even during average LS event) can be reduced to a gil amount. It's a non-starter argument. It assumes all 17 people would be farming gil if not for the event. It assumes everyone WOULD have entered Dyna that day if not for the relicholders. It assumes NOBODY is farming currency for the ally simultaneously to building an ADL pop. It assumes people aren't after 1 or more Arch boss drops. Simply put, it assumes way too much. Why limit your gil farming to a 2-hour Dyna event? Why not spend every waking moment online farming bee chips? Quick, the time you are posting while waiting for that VW PUG to gather is time you could be farming Tiger King Hides.

When drops for sea torques were terrible and people camped Ix'Drg and some of the more time consuming jailers, an entire LS was lucky to have walked away with one virtue or, worse, nothing. Yet it was done. I hate farming sea, yet as a SH in my LS I helped run sea events because people wanted the gear. And yeah, we did it when it was very clear how the chips would fall in the DKP and only one person would walk away with a Torque (or a Novio, or insert-your-own-drop). Yes, I am aware that the difference between farming sea and entering Dyna is that one isn't "giving up" money by entering sea. See paragraph above though.

Also, GG's points re: HNM camping being a waste of time and product/fun idea are subjective. Objectively, these events were done. We aren't in 2005 here. You are making a value judgment on a known phenomenon that happened years ago. It's a phenomenon I'm glad I wasn't involved in hardcore, but not every shell that camped HNM's would have sold that desired drop to another LS no matter how many manhours you expended to pay its price tag.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

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didnt kirshy run the numbers on this, back at the 20 ADL drop, on average you'd farm enough currency for half a relic by the time you got all your ADL's done?

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Also, GG's points re: HNM camping being a waste of time and product/fun idea are subjective. Objectively, these events were done. We aren't in 2005 here. You are making a value judgment on a known phenomenon that happened years ago. It's a phenomenon I'm glad I wasn't involved in hardcore, but not every shell that camped HNM's would have sold that desired drop to another LS no matter how many manhours you expended to pay its price tag.

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Are you being intentionally dense? The point that doing HNMs was a net loss for many shells is an objective stance. The fact that people did it in the first place indicates that they enjoyed the content to some degree, or just didn't know better.

Objectively? Farming gil and buying drops was better for a hell of a lot of stuff. Still is. But unless some people find Arch Dynamis Lord super fun and thrilling and totally worth doing regardless of the drops, you're going to have to weigh people's proclivity towards the event against the opportunity cost they incur by doing it. Every relic taken 95-99 is essentially another 75 Relic that could have been built from scratch.

You're also completely convoluting the issue. It's not a matter of people entering Dynamis or not entering Dynamis. They already entered Dynamis. The opportunity cost being weighed is what they're doing after entering Dynamis. They're there. They have a choice between farming ADL and farming currency. Farming ADL means not farming nearly as much currency. That is a loss.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Are you being intentionally dense? The point that doing HNMs was a net loss for many shells is an objective stance. The fact that people did it in the first place indicates that they enjoyed the content to some degree, or just didn't know better.

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Or that they did stuff in the game that benefited the one or two over the many, in return for similar favors being done for them or for LS DKP. The fact that the game shifted to the point where you are distilling everything down to its opportunity cost (or more specifically, "how much gil is this time costing me?") says more about player temperament these days than anything else. At this point, it is clear SE isn't changing the trial, likely just the number of drops. I may not like the trial myself, but Hell, I'm willing to give it a go in my own LS.

Regarding the HNM scene being a "net loss", it's still subjective. You are neglecting the argument in my previous post that most HNMLS did not sell the drops they were camping until most, if not all, of their LS was capped on the gear. You are viewing the HNM scene from circa 2007-2008, where LS's affirmatively camped the Kings for the express purpose of making gil from people who wanted to buy the drops. However, back in the early days of Kings, the HNMLS were botting/competing over claims to gear their LS and "wasting" all that time camping because they felt they had no choice. Doing HNM wasn't a "net loss" for these shells because all the farming in the world wouldn't have bought them their E. Bodies. It was the nature of the game. Shells competed fiercely, and some would rather have CFH'd the King or let abjurations hit the floor than dare sell to a competing LS. Marrow won't be any different for those groups that do it. The secondary market will be near-nonexistent as most Marrow generated will stay intra-group. The shells that DO undertake this trial won't consider it a "net loss" because there will likely be no viable market alternative.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Objectively? Farming gil and buying drops was better for a hell of a lot of stuff. Still is. But unless some people find Arch Dynamis Lord super fun and thrilling and totally worth doing regardless of the drops, you're going to have to weigh people's proclivity towards the event against the opportunity cost they incur by doing it. Every relic taken 95-99 is essentially another 75 Relic that could have been built from scratch.

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Sure, a Relic that will never be 99 if nobody ever actually does this trial. I am not denying the statistics that you could make another 75 Relic for the time and manpower involved in making a 99 Relic, but if we are really comparing timesinks here, why upgrade ANY weapon? Might as well compare the time and manpower hours involved in getting an Empy to 90 to the time it would take another Empy to be built from scratch for the people who help you, or other things in-game they could be doing WHILE helping you. I actually agree with you that people will weigh their proclivity toward the event against its downsides. Ultimately, I feel that SE misrepresented this trial to their playerbase since a majority of the 95 Relicholders will not finish this.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're also completely convoluting the issue. It's not a matter of people entering Dynamis or not entering Dynamis. They already entered Dynamis. The opportunity cost being weighed is what they're doing after entering Dynamis. They're there. They have a choice between farming ADL and farming currency. Farming ADL means not farming nearly as much currency. That is a loss.

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Again, assumes those are the only two goals for someone entering Dynamis, or that they care about hardcore farming currency. I'm not convoluting the issue, I'm pointing out assumptions inherent in the argument that 17 other people are "wasting" 2 mill. Perhaps 4-5 of the people in the ally are relicholders who want to lot Marrow. Perhaps another 3-4 people are helpers who don't step into Dynamis regularly and are only doing so because they get DKP for a LS event. Perhaps another 1-2 people want a chance to lot on Sagasinger. You are looking at everything in terms of pure gil loss, and declaring the event DOA because it is literally taking gil out of your pocket. And that's fine for your goals. I wouldn't force those people in my LS to come on an ADL run. I am saying that if everybody viewed every event in the game through that lens, there would be no "utility" to doing most things when they could just be spending every waking moment in game farming gil. But some activities are done for gear, not gil.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

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Using conservative estimates and assuming people duo farm instead of solo since not everyone has a solo job leveled, 18 people could farm enough currency for a new relic in about 8 days. One day longer than it would take to finish the ADL trial assuming a 75% win rate.

Conservative
9 groups of 2 x 200 currency = 1800 currency per day
highest possible relic requirement not including the final 3k 15300/1800= 8.5 days

Realistic
9 groups of 2 x 270 currency = 2430
15300/2430 = 6.29 days

Possible but not likely
18 solo well geared BST or DNC x 175 currency = 3150
15300/3150 = 4.85 days

This is all assuming no white procs.

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

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Yeah, I find it to be unlikely though...

I'm not going to quote that wall of text but holy shit you're dense if you think there's no opportunity cost involved in giving items to members in exchange for DKP instead of selling them for gil. "But guuuuuuuyyyyys, I wasn't going to sell it anyways" doesn't change the objective value of any item or amount of time.

If an Ebody is worth 5M then it's worth 5M whether you sell it or give it to a shell member. You are giving them assets totaling 5 Million gil, typically at the expense of "DKP". Their DKP, which is a currency proportional to time invested, has a gil value. When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP. It's just money with a different name.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that they haven't. I'm probably wrong that SE would ignore NAs in favor of JPs, I know crazy talk right?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm not going to quote that wall of text but holy shit you're dense if you think there's no opportunity cost involved in giving items to members in exchange for DKP instead of selling them for gil. "But guuuuuuuyyyyys, I wasn't going to sell it anyways" doesn't change the objective value of any item or amount of time.

If an Ebody is worth 5M then it's worth 5M whether you sell it or give it to a shell member. You are giving them assets totaling 5 Million gil, typically at the expense of "DKP". Their DKP, which is a currency proportional to time invested, has a gil value. When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP. It's just money with a different name.

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First, ad hominem on the "dense" shit.

Second, I never said there wasn't an opportunity cost, just that it varies for each person to such a degree that it isn't useful to look through that lens for everything you do in game. The 17 other people who go on an ADL run don't necessarily equal 17 * 2 mill if those people weren't going to farm currency anyway, and if you weren't going to force them to do so in lieu of ADL. You aren't giving them a Hobson's choice. Reimbursing with DKP or other rewards should be sufficient, and they will know that another event will benefit THEM next. That is the only way groups will accomplish these trials. SE misled the playerbase into thinking the majority could do it, but only a fraction of the playerbase would probably want DL/ADL drops so PUGs won't work by and large.

Third, any shell worth its salt doesn't reimburse gil for time in an exact ratio simply because different events are more "lucrative" than others. I agree when you say DKP is "money with a different name." My point was that it is not useful to distill every event in game down to a gil value because LS events vary widely and (as I keep saying in my posts) some items do not have a viable market alternative. Yes, "When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP." No, you aren't paid in opportunity cost of what you gave up in gil, because it varies by person and no group is going to pay you for your time that way outside of merc situations.

Back in the day, when LS's helped their BLM's get Novio Earrings, many manpower hours were expended and one person walked away with a 15 mill item, and perhaps another with a Love Torque. Would you demand an opportunity cost of 2 mill from the LS for your "time" in helping because you could have farmed that amount of gil gardening or goldsmithing? No, it's exactly as you said, you took the DKP and knew that another event would benefit you down the road. There is no difference here for shells that do ADL. The only reason you are seeing a difference here is that you can directly measure the "net loss" from your individual (read: subjective) activities in Dynamis far more easily than other events.

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Your post exemplifies the fatal flaws of many "Old style" linkshells, and why the vast majority of the game's best players now want nothing to do with them whatsoever. Fact is, we wised up. We learned to appreciate the value of our time. If we were in a linkshell to work, and we weren't getting properly compensated, then the linkshell was taking more from us than it was giving out. Whether it's a matter of efficiency, or poor/tilted distribution systems, people got tired of selling themselves off for less than they were worth.

Keep in mind that I'm completely ignoring "fun". If people have fun doing these things, they should do them. But I am working under the assumption that these things are not fun, as ADL is not fun, and people are doing work for DKP so that they can buy some reward later.

In this case, it is straight up bad practice for a linkshell to do an event where they spend more in man-hours than they obtain in loot on average. If Odin costs you 2x18 = 36 Man-hours at an average cost of 500k/manhour and you average out 15M per Odin in Abjurations, then you're much better off not doing Einherjar at all and letting your members buy Ebodies/Mbodies/etc from other shells. So yes, some events are more lucrative than others. But frankly, that's not important. If the linkshell makes more in profit than they put in in man-hours, they make a net profit. If they don't, they shouldn't be doing the event.

The real issue when it comes to large linkshells in the difference of the worth of any individual member's man-hour. A good player can easily push 500k+/manhour, but a shit player may be sitting on 0 or 10k average. People still made linkshells for horribly inefficient events because it allowed them to make a net profit at the expense of the rest of their shell. When I'm worth 500k/manhour and Joe Shmoe is worth 10k/manhour, and he makes a linkshell with me to do an event that pays out 250k/manhour, Joe is making a huge profit while I'm sitting there wasting my time for him. This is why linkshells were popular and kept doing these "variably lucrative" events even though the members did not enjoy it. Linkshell events were FFXI socialism at its finest. Everybody's work was worth the same amount, even if it wasn't.

Again, I'm leaving out fun. If the fun of the event and the people is worth the loss in net gil to you, by all means do it. That's what I do, personally. But ADL is not fun. You are not recouping fun on that gil you lose. All you have then is the numbers.

While I understand your viewpoint more now, and sympathize with it to an extent, you are playing the wrong game if you boil everything down to your worth in manhours and use that to judge whether to participate in an event (especially because not everything has a market alternative). I hesitate to use the hackneyed phrase "don't hate the playa, hate the game," but I can't think of anything more appropriate. Most of the game is a grind. I could have made reams of gil farming when I was spamming Akvan for Heka Kalasiris, but I went ahead and did the event because I wanted the gear, not the gil. Most people who play this game do not weigh their choice of activities based on individual manhours to gil ratio.

I would submit that you "wised up" because of FF in 2012, which is a different creature from FF in 2005. These days, most stuff can be lowmanned, almost EVERYTHING has a market alternative, and you can make scads of gil from just spamming JA's in Dynamis. But even today, if you were to go after Voidwatch and/or Legion stuff, you would need to sacrifice your "worth in time/gil" to mindlessly spam stuff because unfortunately that is what most of the endgame is now. Abyssea was a flash in the pan where the gear grew on trees and you could literally measure the effort you put in resulting in rewards put out.

As for fun, hell most people in my shell last night had fun when they chose the right clone and we killed ADL, and wow something actually DROPPED (from Tome NM's too, which will be liquidated for the LS bank). They enjoyed the change of pace from endless Logwatch.

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SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

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Bolded the important part. We never really expected anything else in the past..the amount of complaints we gave on the same issues over and over that they totally ignored.. lol, then new guys came in and amazed us by listening and giving us everything we wanted. Now it's back to the old management, not only will the next update still bring the horrible new trials but all new things to rage about too with Legion and whatever else.

The people in charge now operate under the "we know best" rule and there is no changing them as was the case before Abyssea with what they they did and with how they ran FFXIV (and blamed the players for not getting the game to the point they had to be fired for it to change lol). That is the mentality of the people we have running the show here now, they will not be moved on their ideals under any circumstances...even if it kills the game (as seen with FFXIV, they near killed it rather than listen to what players wanted).

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

But ADL is not fun.

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Fun is subjective, it could be fun for somebody!



















And I hope I never meet that person, because he or she is probably not well.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

While I understand your viewpoint more now, and sympathize with it to an extent, you are playing the wrong game if you boil everything down to your worth in manhours and use that to judge whether to participate in an event (especially because not everything has a market alternative). I hesitate to use the hackneyed phrase "don't hate the playa, hate the game," but I can't think of anything more appropriate. Most of the game is a grind. I could have made reams of gil farming when I was spamming Akvan for Heka Kalasiris, but I went ahead and did the event because I wanted the gear, not the gil. Most people who play this game do not weigh their choice of activities based on individual manhours to gil ratio.

As for fun, hell most people in my shell last night had fun when they chose the right clone and we killed ADL. They enjoyed the change of pace from endless Logwatch.

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I only still play the game because I have fun. I simply do not enjoy ADL, and frankly neither will your linkshell after a while if you have more than a couple relics. There is no reason for me or anyone else to throw away millions of gil on an event that they do not find fun.

Perhaps (updated my last post btw with "fun" elements). We throw away millions of gil for our "manhours" on Voidwatch though when we are through having fun killing Pil/Akvan, etc. It's all subjective in the end and the nature of SE's game.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Perhaps (updated my last post btw with "fun" elements). We throw away millions of gil for our "manhours" on Voidwatch though when we are through having fun killing Pil/Akvan, etc. It's all subjective in the end and the nature of SE's game.

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Abyssea had nothing to do with wising up. People knew the worth of their time long before that mess. Why is that such a quick fallback for everyone these days? It's dumb, and only attempts to convolute the issue.

Voidwatch is a poor example because the items people are trying to obtain do not have a static gil value. Rather, they have an infinitely high value. People will either pay in whatever amount it takes to obtain a body, or they won't. It's not the least bit subjective.

Most people were valuing VW bodies as 20 million based on the dev's suggested implementation of tickets. Sure, it doesn't have a static gil value, but you can bet that whatever gil value it DOES have is many many times lower than the hundreds of manhours people have invested in NM's that don't drop anything but logs. My point is we do stuff that doesn't directly compensate our hours for gil all the time, and will continue to do so.

EDIT: In fact, VW with a ticket system is a better analogy. Once the tickets are implemented, bodies WILL have a static cost. However, the secondary market will be extremely low because people won't do PUGs if they already have the rare item, and most tickets will remain intra-LS because that is commonly when someone will do a VW and get an extra ticket for something they already have. Limited-to-zero market alternative, and all the opportunity cost gil in the world you could farm in Dynamis won't get you closer to the item. At some point, if you want the item, you will have to spam the NM another hundred times in PUGs or join a LS where tickets are sold/DKP'd to other members.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Most people were valuing VW bodies as 20 million based on the dev's suggested implementation of tickets. Sure, it doesn't have a static gil value, but you can bet that whatever gil value it DOES have is many many times lower than the hundreds of manhours people have invested in NM's that don't drop anything but logs. My point is we do stuff that doesn't directly compensate our hours for gil all the time, and will continue to do so.

EDIT: In fact, VW with a ticket system is a better analogy. Once the tickets are implemented, bodies WILL have a static cost. However, the secondary market will be extremely low because people won't do PUGs if they already have the rare item, and most tickets will remain intra-LS because that is commonly when someone will do a VW and get an extra ticket for something they already have. Limited-to-zero market alternative, and all the opportunity cost gil in the world you could farm in Dynamis won't get you closer to the item. At some point, if you want the item, you will have to spam the NM another hundred times in PUGs or join a LS where tickets are sold/DKP'd to other members.

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The bodies can be valued if and only if there is a ticket system. If there is a ticket system, smart people will stop doing Voidwatch as it would be a complete waste of their time when they can just buy bodies (assuming a 20M pricetag). As long as the ticket system is not currently implemented, then the bodies have infinite cost which explains the past trends.

If they can find a body ticket, sure. I don't expect the secondary market to flourish because of the scenario I laid out in my last post where most, if not all, tickets will be traded/sold/DKP'd in the confines of a LS.

In any event, the reason I used this analogy is that there is no current viable market alternative for Umbral Marrow. Hell, if I could just tell the relicholders in my shell to farm up 6 million and buy each Marrow rather than waste a LS event on it, don't you think I would? That won't happen though, so I have to compensate my members in other ways. They seemed happy enough when we farmed Relic, Forgottens, and currency in the time we had left over in Xarca. Hell, they got MORE during that LS event than they get in Voidwatch usually.

It remains my hope that SE lowers the requirement of the trial.

A full alliance of 18 people getting more in a lowman-geared level 90 event than a level 99 alliance-based event? No way.

6Mil/Marrow is laughably cheap. Why? Because of the god damned opportunity cost. That's how these things are priced. That's why no one will sell them and no one will buy them. The opportunity cost you'd have to incur to farm ADL means that each marrow would be worth an easy 20M+, essentially costing relic holders another 100M+ (another full relic) to go from 95-99. Whether they pay that out or do the event themselves makes no difference, it's still 100M down the drain.

Why you're somehow unable to see that and insist on arguing with everyone here is beyond me.

How do people still not understand why the baseline value of 20 mil per marrow came to existence and why it wont change?

People don't seem to comprehend the value of what is lost if you're spending the whole run trying to get marrow. You're missing out on millions in easily farmable currency or currency that could be used on a brand new relic.

And really, who's honestly lining up for a Sagasinger or either Archon item? Nobody is going to farm ADL for marrow when you can easily make more, faster, and with more benefit to the other people with other means.

I've already broken down the ADL drops:
The swords are pretty garbage, the sagasinger glows, so its a trophy item...but then again any item with a 0.1% drop rate is a trophy item, which begs the VW question of why are people bitching and moaning about inventory space about having to hold mekira's/toci's?
The archon items are weaker versions of the shadow items. Instead of annuling damage 10% of the time, they'll annul severe damage 10% of the time. The only decent thing about the ring is its the best Comet ring out there...of course if you're casting Comet theres a 99% chance you're dumb (the other 1% being a taru with dark dmg+6% staves), and would explain why you want ADL items.

There really is no incentive to ADL -.-