FINAL FANTASY XI® Seekers of Adoulin

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

No, I don't think you understand what piracy is. Making a copy of something, like a movie or a game or OS, then giving that copy away is piracy, therefor illegal. Money doesn't have to change hands for it to be piracy, though it does change how much money in reparations the suing party can get if it ever goes to court. Nor does prior ownership of either individual involved as then it comes down to proving that you own the copied material, and in the case of games with codes and OSes only one person will be able to make that claim. I'll not be a party to such behavior.

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Companies dictate that as Piracy simply to try to trick you into purchasing another copy, the law however does NOT.

If you own a copy of software, movies etc you can legally view/use them in whatever means you wish to so long as you do not sell them or supply them to people who did not previously, legally purchase them.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Companies dictate that as Piracy simply to try to trick you into purchasing another copy, the law however does NOT.

If you own a copy of software, movies etc you can legally view/use them in whatever means you wish to so long as you do not sell them or supply them to people who did not previously, legally purchase them.

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It's not as clear cut, it is definitely a legal grey area. Technically you are buying the license, so some argue that you are only allowed to use the product as intended. On the other hand you have physically bought a thing, so another strong argument is as that thing is yours, you can do with it what you will.

However, if you give that thing away, then using a digital version is completely illegal. As is downloading a digital version from illegal sources, of a game you bought physically.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

... so long as you do not sell them or supply them to people who did not previously, legally purchase them.

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And that is the point right there. Thank you for making it yourself so I didn't have to. Just because I own a copy of a version (in this case the PS2) of FFXI doesn't mean I own a copy of all versions of FFXI.

You don't buy software itself, you buy licenses. Your license is attached to your POL ID, not the physical copy of the disk.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

However, if you give that thing away, then using a digital version is completely illegal. As is downloading a digital version from illegal sources, of a game you bought physically.

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What are "illegal sources" in this case? The FFXI black market? I admit I'm not fully up to date on US law, but here as well as in other countries I know of it's perfectly legal to possess a digital copy of something you physically own (such as backing up a DVD to your hard drive, or rip songs from your music CD to your MP3 player). And that still doesn't compare to what's going on here, because as people said, you're not buying games, you're buying licenses. Registration codes with which to access the game, not obtain the game, as is normally the case when buying offline games. You can't just obtain a copy of the game from a random source and play it, not if you don't have your own license. And for that you need to purchase the game once for yourself, through any means you want (PS2 discs, PC discs, Steam download, whatever).

It makes perfect sense from a logical view. Think about it, what are game companies trying to sell? Games? No, they want people to pay for playing a game. And selling the games is usually the best way to achieve that. However, this doesn't apply here, because even if people have it they can't just play it. That's because SE aren't selling games, they're selling licenses to the one game that they are running, on their servers.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

And that is the point right there. Thank you for making it yourself so I didn't have to. Just because I own a copy of a version (in this case the PS2) of FFXI doesn't mean I own a copy of all versions of FFXI.

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Sure, skip over all the post lecturing you and reply only to those against which you can come up with something. And no one is saying you own a copy of all versions, but you own access to all versions, because there only is one version of FFXI, namely the one that runs on SE's servers. When you install FFXI, you're not installing the game at all. You're using a client-side interpreter to access the game that the server feeds you. It's like a web browser. Just because you have a browser, doesn't mean you can access the web. For that you need an internet connection. Browsers are free, internet isn't (unless you're leeching off someone, and I'm sure you can find a FFXI analogue to that situation as well).

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

It's not as clear cut, it is definitely a legal grey area. Technically you are buying the license, so some argue that you are only allowed to use the product as intended. On the other hand you have physically bought a thing, so another strong argument is as that thing is yours, you can do with it what you will.

However, if you give that thing away, then using a digital version is completely illegal. As is downloading a digital version from illegal sources, of a game you bought physically.

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The only thing you are technically "buying" is the license. By this, you can use your disc to download the contents (ie. the expansions) on as many computers as you want; however, the license is registered to a single content ID. Once that registration is completed, as far as SE (and the law is concerned), the license is a redeemable item, and by registering it with a content ID you have effectively "redeemed" and forfeited ownership of that item. In essence crossing the territory between physical and digital property.

The content of the discs can be shared indefinitely, however the registration code cannot. At least, not without breaking the law.

The thing people are missing is that EULA talks about what your rights are in using the software on the disks, not the disks themselves. The disks are only intended to deliver that software then, well, sit on your shelf collecting dust until you need to reinstall or sit in your disk drive as an archaic form of DRM. It's governed by different rules that most corporations expect people to know without having to be told. Your freedoms with the disks are extremely limited in regards to sharing, they're intended for one owner and only one owner. Why do you think game companies hate Gamestop? There is a grey area in regards to backing up disks in case of damage but it's possible that laws have changed that makes that illegal, too.

A fine example of this lack of freedom is EA's Project Ten Dollar. If someone gives you their old copy of an EA game, say Battlefield II, you can't just install it an expect to be able to play online without hassle. They will require you to 'buy' the game from them (for $10) just to be able to play online. Only then do you actually own that install of them game, but those game disks still belong to the person that gave you the disks. At least they do in EA's eyes, and that's the crux of the matter. And hope you don't have to reinstall, cause I doubt that code EA gave you will work more than once.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The thing people are missing is that EULA talks about what your rights are in using the software on the disks, not the disks themselves. The disks are only intended to deliver that software then, well, sit on your shelf collecting dust until you need to reinstall or sit in your disk drive as an archaic form of DRM. It's governed by different rules that most corporations expect people to know without having to be told. Your freedoms with the disks are extremely limited in regards to sharing, they're intended for one owner and only one owner. Why do you think game companies hate Gamestop? There is a grey area in regards to backing up disks in case of damage but it's possible that laws have changed that makes that illegal, too.

A fine example of this lack of freedom is EA's Project Ten Dollar. If someone gives you their old copy of an EA game, say Battlefield II, you can't just install it an expect to be able to play online without hassle. They will require you to 'buy' the game from them (for $10) just to be able to play online. Only then do you actually own that install of them game, but those game disks still belong to the person that gave you the disks. At least they do in EA's eyes, and that's the crux of the matter. And hope you don't have to reinstall, cause I doubt that code EA gave you will work more than once.

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You're really going to use EA as an example, it's one of the worst companies around when it comes to little care for it's customers.

EA is the easiest example that everyone can relate to... so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

The thing people are missing is that EULA talks about what your rights are in using the software on the disks, not the disks themselves. The disks are only intended to deliver that software then, well, sit on your shelf collecting dust until you need to reinstall or sit in your disk drive as an archaic form of DRM. It's governed by different rules that most corporations expect people to know without having to be told. Your freedoms with the disks are extremely limited in regards to sharing, they're intended for one owner and only one owner. Why do you think game companies hate Gamestop? There is a grey area in regards to backing up disks in case of damage but it's possible that laws have changed that makes that illegal, too.

A fine example of this lack of freedom is EA's Project Ten Dollar. If someone gives you their old copy of an EA game, say Battlefield II, you can't just install it an expect to be able to play online without hassle. They will require you to 'buy' the game from them (for $10) just to be able to play online. Only then do you actually own that install of them game, but those game disks still belong to the person that gave you the disks. At least they do in EA's eyes, and that's the crux of the matter. And hope you don't have to reinstall, cause I doubt that code EA gave you will work more than once.

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The example that you give of EA is exactly why I think they got the worst company in America award, or at least part of the reason. What your saying makes some sense, but I'm going to tell you this now, its stupid. I myself do not like stupid rules, or people.

If I buy a game, I spent my money on it. If I go to my friends house, I should be able to play it on their console, if I play on PC & Xbox but spent money on the PC version of FFXI, I should be able to play it on my Xbox all the same, not buy 2 of them. If I buy a disk with half of the games true content on it, I should be able to share it with my friends using my disk, I paid for it, its my item, and so I should be able to do what I see fit with it within certain bounds.

If this is truly the way the law is, I am sorry to tell you, but I am sure many, many people break this if they buy these kinds of things, and can let their friends use them as well. I myself have done something similar, I split costs of these types of things with friends, so that when we get the full content for us both, we pay half the price.