Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by hiko

droping the dnc is stupid, a buffed dnc is better than an unbeffed one (drop the whm, he don't need to be in pt for most spells anyway)



because DD/DDsub +DNC outdmg DD/dnc +smn

and why use a job that is only good once every min to save haste cycle to the whm?
and IMO if smn have a buff that is worth using, loosing 45sec because you wasted your ward for hastega when the whm could have done it is waste.

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It's a buff we can cycle and it's more efficent than spell haste I don't lose anything by keeping it up.

Again not getting into a DMG vs DMG p*ssing contest, SMN adds buffs/DD/support to a party which is a potent combo if used right

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Good god. How many groups are these people in where there are no other mages tossing out Haste such that Summoner's Hastega suddenly means a flying frappoli?

Protip: When the people in the party would be getting Spell Haste with or without a Summoner, Hastega means absolutely nothing. You are not providing 15% Haste to the party. You are providing 120~ MP to the White or Red Mage. Net gain to DDs from Summoner's Hastega? Zero.

I'm not sure where this "I can do 3 things that Cor can do, all weaker than COR, but I still earn my place" deal is coming from either. I'm sorry, but your definition of "earning a spot" is just different from other people's. Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? No. Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? I'm sorry, but absolutely not. Fortunately for Summoners everywhere, FFXI players are used to having to pull other people's weight on a regular basis.

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Maybe the people you play with have to and are happy to pull someone elses weight, I'm not one of them and no one I know is. Please stop trying to tell me that the way I've proven useful time and again doesn't work, because clearly it does or I wouldn't be a career SMN that does it

Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? Absolutely, I see it all the time.

Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? More than enough to justify my being there.

If you're gonna stay close minded and bring nothing to the discussion but "I am right so SFTU" there's no point in you being here. As i said I do it it works, it doesn't stop working because you say so. You can say the sky is green as much as you want but it'll still be blue when I check my window

Wait, what the heck is this?

SMN won't outdamage any DDs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outbuff any RDM/WHM/COR/BRD/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outheal any WHM/RDM/SCH/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outnuke any BLM/SCH. That is a universal truth.

Yes, SMN can do all 3 described above without any problems, but that is not the point. SMN will not take over any single job. They just do the same job as everyone else, abet a moderate job. Not enough to not do, but not enough to become the best at in the game.

The point of the SMN is solo ability. SMN can outsolo 17 out of the other 19 jobs, and is equal to the other 2 jobs. Having versatility is just a bonus, not a trait.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Wait, what the heck is this?

SMN won't outdamage any DDs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outbuff any RDM/WHM/COR/BRD/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outheal any WHM/RDM/SCH/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outnuke any BLM/SCH. That is a universal truth.

Yes, SMN can do all 3 described above without any problems, but that is not the point. SMN will not take over any single job. They just do the same job as everyone else, abet a moderate job. Not enough to not do, but not enough to become the best at in the game.

The point of the SMN is solo ability. SMN can outsolo 17 out of the other 19 jobs, and is equal to the other 2 jobs. Having versatility is just a bonus, not a trait.

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Solo ability is great, but it adds nothing to party play. Our versatility is as much a trait as our solo ability and it can be used to back up a party well

I don't know. I think that if anything, solo ability and versatility aren't equal, because of the limitations on BP timers.

lower our timers, and our versatility goes up like that.

My opinion of the SMN job ability structure.

1)Solo
2)Damage
3)Buffs
4)Heals
5)Versatility

Lower the BP timers, then it becomes:

1)Solo (tie)
1)Damage (tie)
3)Versatility (tie)
3)Buffs (tie)
5)Heals

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Solo ability is great, but it adds nothing to party play. Our versatility is as much a trait as our solo ability and it can be used to back up a party well

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How versatile are you when White Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Red Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Corsair can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Bard can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Scholar can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Gee, I think I listed every job in the game that's capable of buffing, healing, and damaging simultaneously. They all do it better than Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

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See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

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Most of your post is correct, however, Dancer's role in the buff department is only Job Ability Haste.

Yes, I know that Haste = Hastaga, and Haste Samba > Hastaga, so lets take that out of the equation. Does SMN have no other buffs to offer? Sure, having special buffs, like AoE Stoneskin, AoE Damage Mitgration, AoE Blink (for those of them who aren't NIN or /NIN or /SAM), AoE Phalanx (for those who aren't SCH or /SCH), AoE Evasion Up, AoE Evasion/Accuracy Up, AoE Spikes (Enspell and Damage Spikes both). I mean, there are a lot more buffs that SMN can give to the party than what DNC is capable of doing. So, I don't think that DNC can outbuff SMN. Outdamage and Outheal, yes.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

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Hmm, and you accuse me of poor reading skills?

Maybe you have selective reasoning disability. You only see what you want to see, and only if it makes you look good.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Most of your post is correct, however, Dancer's role in the buff department is only Job Ability Haste.

Yes, I know that Haste = Hastaga, and Haste Samba > Hastaga, so lets take that out of the equation. Does SMN have no other buffs to offer? Sure, having special buffs, like AoE Stoneskin, AoE Damage Mitgration, AoE Blink (for those of them who aren't NIN or /NIN or /SAM), AoE Phalanx (for those who aren't SCH or /SCH), AoE Evasion Up, AoE Evasion/Accuracy Up, AoE Spikes (Enspell and Damage Spikes both). I mean, there are a lot more buffs that SMN can give to the party than what DNC is capable of doing. So, I don't think that DNC can outbuff SMN. Outdamage and Outheal, yes.

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This implies that all of those buffs are useful. Phalanx most certainly is not as omgawesome as it sounds. In most cases, the effect is practically moot when dealing with anything that hits harder than an EP mandragora. Stoneskinga has limited use and is also available from practically every SCH and SCH sub mage in existence, so that's not a unique buff. Hastega is also absolutely worthless so I won't start there.

10% JA Haste is absolutely godly in practically every circumstance, even without a bard (looking at going from 40% to 50% Haste for most competent DDs, no bard). I dare say that alone is more of a buff than any sort of Eva boost, crappy Blink, or rehashed Stoneskin can offer. Summoner's best (read: only good) DD buff is completely incompatible with DNC to boot, sharply throttling its practical usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

How versatile are you when White Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Red Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Corsair can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Bard can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Scholar can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Gee, I think I listed every job in the game that's capable of buffing, healing, and damaging simultaneously. They all do it better than Summoner.

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First off no job can really DD/buff/support at the same time, they can focus on maybe 2 except SMN.

How is this RDM TPing,WS, healing and keeping a refresh/haste cycle all at once?

When Bard can TPing,WS, healing and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Scholar can TPing,WS, healing and nuking and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

DNC gan give drain aspir or haste samba at a time they do better damage but will have to sacrifice TP to heal.

I keep pointing that we aren't the strongest in any particular one role but can add healthy amounts of all 3 at the same time

What was typed was MUCH stupider than even your Byakko's Axe WAR idea, Korpg.

GG, mind telling us what the WAR in your math was subbing? I remember it being /SAM for Hasso. Now the WARs want to sub DNC because SMN buffs are too threatening.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

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Go away this is a serious discussion

If the topic is DD, you aren't involved Raz.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

This implies that all of those buffs are useful. Phalanx most certainly is not as omgawesome as it sounds. In most cases, the effect is practically moot when dealing with anything that hits harder than an EP mandragora. Stoneskinga has limited use and is also available from practically every SCH and SCH sub mage in existence, so that's not a unique buff. Hastega is also absolutely worthless so I won't start there.

10% JA Haste is absolutely godly in practically every circumstance, even without a bard (looking at going from 40% to 50% Haste for most competent DDs, no bard). I dare say that alone is more of a buff than any sort of Eva boost, crappy Blink, or rehashed Stoneskin can offer. Summoner's best (read: only good) DD buff is completely incompatible with DNC to boot, sharply throttling its practical usefulness.

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Stoneskinga from a SMN is stronger than one from a SCH or WHM/SCH.

Even then, if you have a SMN who's job is to keep stoneskin up for the tank and DDs in the same party, it frees up the WHM who is supposed to continue to keep the tank and DDs healed. A well placed stoneskin can be the difference between a wipe and a semi-wipe.

Mind you, I wouldn't expect you yourself to have a SMN in the party since I know your caliber of playstyle, but dismissing the idea wholly in favor of DNC's one buff is not right. SMN does have more than one useful buff, abet with limited situations, but still very useful in its own right.

What's worse, a DNC or a DNC with Stoneskin up?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If the topic is DD, you aren't involved Raz.

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Says you, you're the first to mention SMN melee in a while

Can someone edit the lolwiki then, cause it's still saying Earthern Ward is vastly inferior to Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

What was typed was MUCH stupider than even your Byakko's Axe WAR idea, Korpg.

GG, mind telling us what the WAR in your math was subbing? I remember it being /SAM for Hasso. Now the WARs want to sub DNC because SMN buffs are too threatening.

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You still accuse me of reading comprehension, but you yourself can't comprehend the idea of an example.

I think you are purposefully being stupid because you think it would make your argument look better. Go ahead and continue to use Byakko's Axe from my example if you want to think you look better. Point still stands, melee SMN still sucks, and your argument has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

First off no job can really DD/buff/support at the same time, they can focus on maybe 2 except SMN.

How is this RDM TPing,WS, healing and keeping a refresh/haste cycle all at once?

When Bard can TPing,WS, healing and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Scholar can TPing,WS, healing and nuking and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

DNC gan give drain aspir or haste samba at a time they do better damage but will have to sacrifice TP to heal.

I keep pointing that we aren't the strongest in any particular one role but can add healthy amounts of all 3 at the same time

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That is absolutely not true and you have absolutely no idea what the potential of other jobs is if you think that they are incapable of doing all 3 simultaneously. The better a player is, the better they are able to focus on multiple things at once.

RDM's refresh/Haste cycle is easy and every good RDM in the entire game should have this internalized to the point where it's not even taking a moment of their attention away from everything else. Healing is also very easy, and not something that needs to be spammed fulltime. Good RDMs can melee and outdamage SMN. Good RDMs can also Nuke and outdamage SMN. All while keeping up Haste/Refresh and tossing out cures. I've been doing it every time I've used my RDM without issue. Got spare MP? Not riding your nuke timer and your temp meds? Nuke more.

BRD casts 2 songs every 2-3 minutes. 4 if there's Ballads in play. There's a reason they were so often called on to pull for parties. They have a ton of spare time. And with Evisceration, they handily destroy Summoner in the damage department. They also heal as well, or better, than SMN by having the same spells and better access to fast cast/haste gear/buffs.

SCH can Heal, Buff, and Nuke at the same time easily. That's basically what they do. They will also outdamage Summoner in sheer nuking power, completely ignoring melee. What your pet can do every 45 seconds, they can do every 5-10.

DNC's Haste Samba is singularly better than every Summoner buff in existence combined. They can heal significantly better than Summoner, all while doing exceptional damage. Just ask Byrth, Dancer is sorta his thing. They are exceedingly powerful damage dealers, even more so inside Abyssea.

Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department, while being the best healer in the game and keeping a healthy barspell/Shellra5/Haste/etc set up at all times. I keep my WHM at 88 these days specifically to take advantage of my Octave club offhand and handily destroy things while main healing parties.

Edit: War was /SAM. Also, the SMN in that test was using Red Curry Buns with March +3 x2 and Haste Samba. An unbuffed, unfooded SMN (the way you claim to play it) is not coming anywhere close to their Avatar's damage so please stop throwing around that 150/400 number like it means anything for you personally. It was comparing the theoretical maximums of the jobs.

Summary of this page: No one likes a jack of trades.

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Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department,

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BS

Also I'm getting sick of your overuse of the word "handily"

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Says you, you're the first to mention SMN melee in a while

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As someone who has used the stupid "TP feed" argument to fill over a dozen posts now, you should know that's referring to a SMN that actually deals damage, not that feeble attempt of yours.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Summary of this page: No one likes a jack of trades when you have enough specialists to fulfill the roles they can.

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We're making progress!

Is there anything in the game that does less damage than Smn meeleeing bar Sch? If it's Nuking you're facing stiff competition from jobs that don't have a 45 second timer on their nukes minus pld/drk.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Can someone edit the lolwiki then, cause it's still saying Earthern Ward is vastly inferior to Stoneskin.

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Yes please.

I have not done the actual math of it, but I know absorbs more damage than 230.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Summary of this page: No one likes a jack of trades.

BS

Also I'm getting sick of your overuse of the word "handily"

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I like the word handily. We've already looked at SMN's damage. Do I really need to go make a spreadsheet for WHM's now too? Hexa Strike is a 7-hit Critical-based WS with STR and MND mods. It is an absolute beast. And the best part is WHM can take advantage of Haste buffs.

Edit: Any time you want to argue about Damage ability, that's all I really should need to say. Haste buffs. Haste buffs. Haste buffs. Get Garuda some marches and we'll talk, buddy.

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And the best part is WHM can take advantage of Haste buffs.

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Stop bringing up haste. Both jobs have native spell haste. If you can have marches, so can I. If you can have haste samba, so can I. The only citeable gap in haste is a small gap in gear haste.

I'll give you your Hexa, and won't argue that one. But for the love of all that's holy, stop pretending like SMN doesn't have its own haste spell or anything.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

As someone who has used the stupid "TP feed" argument to fill over a dozen posts now, you should know that's referring to a SMN that actually deals damage, not that feeble attempt of yours.

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Saying TP feed repeatedly does not constitute argument unles you're 8yrs old

But you still wont be as useful for dmg, as say an WAR NIN MNK DRG SAM COR PUP, etc

Frankly I think the best thing to come out of this thread is acknowledgement of PUP being a decent DD now...

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We're making progress!

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Stop editing quotes. When a new page rolls over and you edit a quote, it makes it look like the person really wrote that.

SMN stomps SCH
SMN stomps a BLM in melee and isn't far off from a BLM that isn't suicidal
Due to lack of good weapon skills and no other real spike damage, SMN probably stomps RDM in melee mode. I suppose RDM could spam nukes and that might be better but that takes you to BLM suicide mode
SMN probably on around the same level with BRD

If there was no cap on BP delay minus, SMN would be more competitive in all roles.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Point still stands, melee SMN still sucks, and your argument has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.

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It's still the reason why you aren't able to compare YOUR SMN, which hasn't showed up on the radar.

As far as I've seen, there has been no explanation of the following "mathies" flaws:

1) Why they think there is always a pt of exactly 6. Doesn't happen.
2) Why that non-existant pt always has 3 types of haste, only one healer and a WAR who subs /SAM. Doesn't happen.
3) Why a WAR with 80% haste is worried about the WHM running out of MP (in abyssea) instead of the WHM keeping up with heals.
4) Why they think that Ukon math extends to every DD with every weapon.
5) Why SMN being one of the buffers (and backup healers) counts for nothing, and that only DD matters.
6) Why it's OK for a WAR to drop /SAM to fight the claims in #5, as if it does nothing to their epeen setup in #2. They lose Hasso and their Haste Samba is half potency if they use it.
7) WARs are scared to death of the unbuffed maths. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Saying TP feed repeatedly does not constitute argument unles you're 8yrs old

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Says the "OH NO! 500 DAMAGE!" wimp!

What the hell did you just type?

Why wouldn't the War be /Sam?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

What the hell did you just type?

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Flaws that were ignored because one mathie posted numbers for a WAR in a 5-man party where everyone's job was to make him look good.

Let's face it, Ukon WAR need 3 other people to look good, so divide all their damage by 4.

Since it didn't get in your thick skull the first time, it was an example of maximum damage potential a job can give (which was unfair, since it compared the best melee DD in the game to the second worst). Yours falls far short on mereesmn.

EDIT: you know what, what in the fuck, I give up. Obligatory are you CM/elementa so I can save everyone else time.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Let's face it, Ukon WAR need 3 other people to look good, so divide all their damage by 4.

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yeah, that makes real sense, I'm sure those other three people are each responsible for 25% of the WAR's damage... not...


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At any rate.... we can have a pissing contest about which job is the best at whatever all day long. All I was ever trying to say is that meleeing increases SMN's damage capability (quite significantly, as the spreadsheeting shows). It's not enough to make SMN a competitive job, which goes to highlight the job's inherent flaws like how it has dozens and dozens of abilities that are all locked to two shared recast timers. But it's still an improvement for the job when used well. It's just not going to be enough to make it any more popular than it is now.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That is absolutely not true and you have absolutely no idea what the potential of other jobs is if you think that they are incapable of doing all 3 simultaneously. The better a player is, the better they are able to focus on multiple things at once.

RDM's refresh/Haste cycle is easy and every good RDM in the entire game should have this internalized to the point where it's not even taking a moment of their attention away from everything else. Healing is also very easy, and not something that needs to be spammed fulltime. Good RDMs can melee and outdamage SMN. Good RDMs can also Nuke and outdamage SMN. All while keeping up Haste/Refresh and tossing out cures. I've been doing it every time I've used my RDM without issue. Got spare MP? Not riding your nuke timer and your temp meds? Nuke more.

BRD casts 2 songs every 2-3 minutes. 4 if there's Ballads in play. There's a reason they were so often called on to pull for parties. They have a ton of spare time. And with Evisceration, they handily destroy Summoner in the damage department. They also heal as well, or better, than SMN by having the same spells and better access to fast cast/haste gear/buffs.

SCH can Heal, Buff, and Nuke at the same time easily. That's basically what they do. They will also outdamage Summoner in sheer nuking power, completely ignoring melee. What your pet can do every 45 seconds, they can do every 5-10.

DNC's Haste Samba is singularly better than every Summoner buff in existence combined. They can heal significantly better than Summoner, all while doing exceptional damage. Just ask Byrth, Dancer is sorta his thing. They are exceedingly powerful damage dealers, even more so inside Abyssea.

Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department, while being the best healer in the game and keeping a healthy barspell/Shellra5/Haste/etc set up at all times. I keep my WHM at 88 these days specifically to take advantage of my Octave club offhand and handily destroy things while main healing parties.

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Again yes things will out Damage me, yes they will out buff me yes they will out heal me. but all at the same time I doubt it with the exception of RDM and SCH maybe but hate can become a problem.
DNCs one buff isn't better than all SMN buffs.
BRD this BRD /WHM to heal pull and DD?
WHM yes great DDs but I've yet to see one main heal and buff and while DDing

The fact we can do all three easily at the same time is a good reason to except us.

I'm not trying to say we'll out perform anything just that we perform well enough make usm a worthwhile invite

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

yeah, that makes real sense, I'm sure those other three people are each responsible for 25% of the WAR's damage... not...

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Of course they aren't, but no one has the guts to show unbuffed contribution of WAR vs SMN. If I alone answer my question, it stands.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Stop bringing up haste. Both jobs have native spell haste. If you can have marches, so can I. If you can have haste samba, so can I. The only citeable gap in haste is a small gap in gear haste.

I'll give you your Hexa, and won't argue that one. But for the love of all that's holy, stop pretending like SMN doesn't have its own haste spell or anything.

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Have you looked at how abysmal SMN melee damage is? Especially using Mykrr? A fully buffed (RCB, Marchx2 +3, Haste Samba) SMN is looking at around 250 DPS (400 if you include Garuda spamming claws), compared to a Ukon WAR's 1,000/s. White Mage probably falls in around 500-600, but I can math it out if you really want me to. Haste Spell is only a minor Haste buff. That's 40% total Haste (for a WHM, or 37 for SMN). Add in real Haste buffs. Yes, real ones. Marches. Samba. And White Mage absolutely destroys SMN. Why? Because:

A) Garuda will never get more than 15% Haste

B) Predator Claws will never happen more than every 45 seconds

C) Staff Weaponskills are absolute crap, and every Mykrr used will constitute 0 DMG in the WS phase. Especially if used at 300TP.

D) Garuda will never eat food, and Avatars have abysmal damage ratings and rely primarily on their extremely high pDif cap to deal damage. Result: Attack means a hell of a lot to Avatars, and they are in no way capping it on things higher level than them.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Frankly I think the best thing to come out of this thread is acknowledgement of PUP being a decent DD now...

Stop editing quotes. When a new page rolls over and you edit a quote, it makes it look like the person really wrote that.

SMN stomps SCH
SMN stomps a BLM in melee and isn't far off from a BLM that isn't suicidal
Due to lack of good weapon skills and no other real spike damage, SMN probably stomps RDM in melee mode. I suppose RDM could spam nukes and that might be better but that takes you to BLM suicide mode
SMN probably on around the same level with BRD

If there was no cap on BP delay minus, SMN would be more competitive in all roles.

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1. wut
2. Blm has more defensive abilities than Smn and has no problem going 'suicide' inside abyssea, maybe less outside (Assuming Smn was even in Aoe/melee range)
3. CDC says what to melee argument, still has good defensive tools to blm suicide argument
4. possibly, haven't mathed it out but Brd is still looking more attractive overall.
5. Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Of course they aren't, but no one has the guts to show unbuffed contribution of WAR vs SMN. If I alone answer my question, it stands.

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Uhm... that's already been done.

We learned two things:
SMN's damage ability does significantly increase by meleeing with an empyrean/relic weapon (Which is all I'm trying to say)
The WAR still stomps the SMN despite this. (which is what you're failing to argue against)

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Have you looked at how abysmal SMN melee damage is?

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It's not abysmal. It's not anywhere touching a WAR, but a WHM can't do that either. Also, you're wrong that the avatar can't achieve more than 15% haste. You can get pet haste through gear augments.

GG will avoid the question as long as it benefits the BG cause.