On Red Mage melee...

Wait, I think I read it wrong then. I see what your point is.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Considering it does away with the need for staves while front-lining, it'd be ideal for enfeebling while in melee gear.

On a concept level, it also works well with the melee mage aspect. Don't see why it would be a problem to have something like that, really.

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Because Staves on a Red Mage is borderline Placebo for everything but cure bombing and nuking to begin with.

Anything that is going to resist you AF3 alone, not including the +45 skill we can get if we decide to peace-meal for Skill, they they are likely to be flat out immune, or have a hard capped resistance rate which make staves (and enfeebling skill by proxy) useless.

It really was this way as well leading up to the levels. Those were having high ass resistance rate were over-reaching on IT++ mobs with uncapped enfeebling skill and no gear to back it up, which persisted the idea that RDM needed the staves to land his debuffs reliably. Then a WHM comes along and lands Slow on a Sky god wearing a light staff and MND gear, when RDM had been trying several times over in full acc + HQ Earth staff with a fully merited Slow II.

Nuking is the best excuse for having staves at this point. Increasing our Enfeebeling accuracy? We have that to the point of overkill.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Because Staves on a Red Mage is borderline Placebo for everything but cure bombing and nuking to begin with.

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Aside from this, however, Acc => M.Acc is also a step in streamlining the class. Streamlining RDM is not a bad thing, either.

Wouldn't mind it as an additional trait we could have on top of some of our other ideas, that's for sure. Though we'll have to balanced what we're doing as far as that goes.

As far as controlling the degree as the Acc -> MAcc, I'd say... 1/10. 400 Root Accuracy = +40 Magical Accuracy is a sizable boost.

I'm talking about gearing and meriting for magic accuracy and getting regular accuracy for it, are you guys taking it the other way?

If so discuss.

ALSO

Why does the only job with an A in enfeebling not have SleepGa I or II? The more i think about this, the more it doesn't make sense.

I think if we had HasteGa and SleepGa I and/or II we would be a lot more attractive right now even without melee fixes.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I'm talking about gearing and meriting for magic accuracy and getting regular accuracy for it, are you guys taking it the other way?

If so discuss.

ALSO

Why does the only job with an A in enfeebling not have SleepGa I or II? The more i think about this, the more it doesn't make sense.

I think if we had HasteGa and SleepGa I and/or II we would be a lot more attractive right now even without melee fixes.

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We only have 1 native AoE spell, that's why.

Yes, we are taking it backwards.

Because, Mana, we've got ZERO existent gear that has magic accuracy that's important to our melee, period. In Melee, Haste is King, followed by Melee Accuracy and Attack. There is absolutely no point in trying to warp the mechanic to make it ok to melee in mage gear.

Your proposal would make... Limbus drops slightly more worthwhile. Taking it in reverse puts the entirety of melee gear more acceptable to wear in lower levels on the way up, and makes it possible to harness Melee accuracy to cut down on number of sets we need to carry around. (No so much spent on Mag Acc gear and more focus on potency of WS/Spells.)

I am sorry, but there is just no way you can get around gearing properly for melee.

I'm just throwing this stuff out there for us to talk about. I want to hear it from everyone perspective that is actually interested. I actually like it just as much the other way around, possibly even more. I just wanted to make sure we are all talking about the same thing.

Gearing properly for Melee only applies to whatever it takes to make your job effective while doing it. I would much rather run around in melee gear than mage gear as well, I'm only looking at the trends over the last couple of years. The purpose for my last large post was to what it would look like to get RDM meleeing with the gear we are provided from aby in the form of the Teal set and our AF3.

I want to be able to function in my AF3, but I can only see it as a step in the wrong direction.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

We only have 1 native AoE spell, that's why.

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It's still a poor excuse. Not from you, but from the Devs.

We were lucky to get that 1 AoE spell...

we were lucky to get Diaga?

Whats Even funnier is they removed Diaga II for RDM's.

Yeah, I still balk at the "enfeebler" aspect when you consider the lack of -gas or the variety of debuffs that BLU gets, but RDMs don't. Dream Flower was an abso-frickin-lutely awesome addition to BLU, and that wasn't even their first multi-target sleep. However, they can also go and stack a Blind and ACC Down, affect specific stats without a particular sub, and so on, often with some bonus damage on top. Herpderp DD onry BLUs make me sad, but I can't exactly fault them for offense's glaring superiority over defense in this game.

With the enemy offense's so easily muted between cures, counters, debuffs, etc. How else could it be though?

Enemy TP moves is about the only thing bosses have going for them, really, and the only way 'defense' could be properly utilized. But with White Mages able to powerhouse recovery, especially in Abyssea, there's almost no point in defensiveness.

Blame the fact that the majority of the jobs now are ridiculous powerhouses offensively though. I'd say as far as DD performance wise, SE needs to put the breaks on any further updates that do anything more than balance them out between each other, and then start working on the rest of the utilities of these jobs while the rest of classes catch up. In the end it'll be the utilities and stylization that should separate the melee classes.

Without going into a giant hypothetical on the game without Atma or even Utsusemi, I'll just say things would be different. Moreover, with the majority of fights simply being an angry mob trying to take our HP to 0, and us to them, you kind of pidgeon hole everyone into the now. I've babbled about more complex encounters and environments before, but without them, the game will ultimately be a lot more of more of the same.

Offense in general is just too effective. When you are 16 v 1 against a boss. Only 1 or 2 people actually have to be able to take hits.

If they are physical, almost everything in the game can be negated by /NIN.

Oh man a caster? Stun, Silence, Addle.

AOE or Resets hate? a tank 1 v 1 the mob with a WHM healing them.

Yeah it's not like there isn't some challenge left in the game, but for the most part everyone has gotten out of hand. The reason I bitch about needing buffs for RDM is that we really haven't. If the entire game is going to be dumbed down, at least include RDM in it. It's the discrimination and comparison that hurts more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Offense in general is just too effective. When you are 16 v 1 against a boss. Only 1 or 2 people actually have to be able to take hits.

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To be fair, few of the jobs were designed to be able to take more than one or two hits before kissing dirt. At the same time, because of this you can't really implement too many encounter mechanics that involve group/raid damage (not to mention group healing would have to get some adjustments to work with the new mechanics).

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Yeah it's not like there isn't some challenge left in the game, but for the most part everyone has gotten out of hand. The reason I bitch about needing buffs for RDM is that we really haven't. If the entire game is going to be dumbed down, at least include RDM in it. It's the discrimination and comparison that hurts more than anything else.

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I'd rather think that we want changes to RDM so that it can start doing things we've been wanting to do since some of us rolled one.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

As far as controlling the degree as the Acc -> MAcc, I'd say... 1/10. 400 Root Accuracy = +40 Magical Accuracy is a sizable boost.

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I was thinking more along the lines of 3/10, or 1/5 if that's too much.

iirc, 35 is the total magical accuracy given by Elemental Saves, so 40 would be superior to that Going twice that or more would be really broken.

Not that I'd particularly mind. I hate Staves on RDM with a particularly venomous hatred. People who tote multiple staves around are the ones who complain most about inventory issues. Bare minimum of them, you're talking 3 inventory slots that can be done without the clutter.

Of course, you'll have to get the healers away from their +22% cure potency though, and even I get tempted by a full potency Ice Magians. But then again, I'm more tempted in the prospect of having BLU at the ready for any time I get flat out told I can't front-line on RDM.

As far as group/raid mechanics and some jobs just being too squishy. I'd say that's a direction SE can take the other jobs. Right now most DD's got their damage aspects down, I don't see it it improving much more than it already is for many of them. Expanding their utilities would allow for another direction for them to improve/sidegrade without running into the redundancy we have with so many damage dealer jobs out there. Plus, it would help keep battles more interesting if they're given tools to deal with a different kind of endgame than your typical tank and spank.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Not that I'd particularly mind. I hate Staves on RDM with a particularly venomous hatred. People who tote multiple staves around are the ones who complain most about inventory issues. Bare minimum of them, you're talking 3 inventory slots that can be done without the clutter.

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Could be worse. You could be like me who uses a +MAB Shamshiir as an excuse to never use staves. I'd just like to kill the reliance on staves when front-lining, though. If you're spamming nukes or healing one should ideally be in caster gear and nothing else. The image of real mageblades that put staves to shame is still a very nice one, though.

Shamshir +2
Mainhand Inverse Light

Offhand Darkness

or, Offhand Darkness Shamshir +2 and mainhaind fully magian upgraded Murgleis, if you've got a pack of zombie slaves to help you.

However, the draw of the staves now isn't just the magical accuracy. Goodness knows we've got plenty of that. It's the +22% Cure potency, and the extra Nuke Potency given on these Magian staves that look attractive, even to me.

Still, I've got such a deep seeded detest for how a set of level 51 staves were used for years as an argument against ever letting a Red Mage draw their blades. And SE's reaction to it was about 5 years too late, and way too weak of an adjustment. I doubt I'll ever take the staves I do have out of satchel.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Shamshir +2
Mainhand Inverse Light

Offhand Darkness

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If by "Inverse Light" you mean the one with the Additional Effect, why not Mainhand the +Magic Accuracy Shamshir +2 and Offhand the Additional Effect, and use them with Enspells II?

As enamored as I was with a Magic Accuracy Sword at first, though, we aren't exactly lacking in Magic Accuracy nowadays. So you might as well get a Sword that maximizes your physical ability, be it a Lightning-path Accuracy Shamshir +2, some kind of Khanda +2, or a Chant du Cygne weapon.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

If by "Inverse Light" you mean the one with the Additional Effect, why not Mainhand the +Magic Accuracy Shamshir +2 and Offhand the Additional Effect, and use them with Enspells II?

As enamored as I was with a Magic Accuracy Sword at first, though, we aren't exactly lacking in Magic Accuracy nowadays. So you might as well get a Sword that maximizes your physical ability, be it a Lightning-path Accuracy Shamshir +2, some kind of Khanda +2, or a Chant du Cygne weapon.

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Go Almace, best looking weapon in game :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Go Almace, best looking weapon in game :)

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I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, because I don't even feel like getting mad now.

By keeping RDM cures to cure iv it will help redefine RDM isnt just a healer role. It does need some sort of boost to be recognised as the enfeebler role that most players seem to over look and a boost to its melee so that RDM who want to melee dont have to justify why they are meleeing in parties. I would like to see some boost to the healing powers as a secondary healer role, maybe give use Regen I -V lol.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

If by "Inverse Light" you mean the one with the Additional Effect, why not Mainhand the +Magic Accuracy Shamshir +2 and Offhand the Additional Effect, and use them with Enspells II?

As enamored as I was with a Magic Accuracy Sword at first, though, we aren't exactly lacking in Magic Accuracy nowadays. So you might as well get a Sword that maximizes your physical ability, be it a Lightning-path Accuracy Shamshir +2, some kind of Khanda +2, or a Chant du Cygne weapon.

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I was thinking strictly Magical Accuracy if you were concerned, but no I agree with you fully on that part.

Going Badelaire +2/ Oa 2-4 Khanda +2 until I can get into a VNM/Empy Weapon LS that would accept me going after an Almace.

There is a laundry list of those swords I want though. And I'm really hoping the physical Trial Swords are going to split in name here soon.

And Stat Wise, Almace is the best looking sword in game, at least to me. Aesthetically... eh...

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, because I don't even feel like getting mad now.

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???

Almace is the single biggest improvement to our melee damage in a long time, plus it is a gorgeous weapon.

The only thing to keep in mind is when dual wielding the activation rate for the additional effects on the TotM weapons is reduced

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Almace is the single biggest improvement to our melee damage in a long time

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This is the truth.

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plus it is a gorgeous weapon.

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This couldn't be any further from the truth. Unless you're like one of those FFVII fanboys who think that the bigger a sword is, the better it looks.

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

Yep, that's why I said main hand first. it would be at the expense of enspells, but whatever.

I personally find Almace to be a touch gaudy and broad, especially for RDM to wield, but to each their own. You can't deny the stats, or the WS, for that matter.

I just imagine it's an "H" My character is slashing.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

This is the truth.



This couldn't be any further from the truth. Unless you're like one of those FFVII fanboys who think that the bigger a sword is, the better it looks.

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

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I disliked FFVII. I like the Almace however.

Personally I like Almace's look except while performing Chant du Cygne. There's just something odd about such a broad sword doing the Z for Zorro.

yah.. looks-wise it doesn't quite "fit" rdm.. but whatever, i have one, and they can pry it from my cold dead fingers at this point. i <3 it.

ideally, looks-wise.. i like the honorbound model. crimson and gold longsword. though i know a lot of rdms would say fleuret/rapier types.

To be honest, the longsword model myself is my personal favorite, too (such as on the Enhancing Sword). The only reasons I would think of to tolerate the fleuret model is if (pre-Abyssea) you're in a level range where it's the absolute best weapon you have for 10+ levels (Royal Guard's Fleuret) or you're unlocking Death Blossom (Vorpal Sword). I mean, I guess that the Chimeric Fleuret looks kind of cool to toy around with as well, from a stat perspective.

But yeah, if you have an Almace, well, I hope you like lugging about an ugly bar of blue metal for the rest of your career . . .

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But yeah, if you have an Almace, well, I hope you like lugging about an ugly bar of blue metal for the rest of your career . . .

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Oh... hello Joyeuse.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

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Ah, so I'm not alone in disliking the look of that sword. It does look completely imbalanced as a sword. The blade itself is too wide for practical use, and reminds me of Clemente from tales of destiny (sans the soul of the perverted old man).

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Oh... hello Joyeuse.

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Bad example. I disliked Joyeuse's design, as well (but for slightly different reasons).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Ah, so I'm not alone in disliking the look of that sword. It does look completely imbalanced as a sword. The blade itself is too wide for practical use, and reminds me of Clemente from tales of destiny (sans the soul of the perverted old man).

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I was surprised by this post, but pretty much yes.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

Bad example. I disliked Joyeuse's design, as well (but for slightly different reasons).

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As much as I wish it were the case, not every game can have rapiers that look like this.

I know its ugly but srsly choosing the WoE Gimpyrean over Almace?

This is one of the lesser known reasons why RDM melee is laughed at. "I'll melee in full Relic because it looks good :3"

Fashion and function dont always go hand in hand, You have to learn that in FFXI =.=a

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I know its ugly but srsly choosing the WoE Gimpyrean over Almace?

This is one of the lesser known reasons why RDM melee is laughed at. "I'll melee in full Relic because it looks good :3"

Fashion and function dont always go hand in hand, You have to learn that in FFXI =.=a

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I think that there's a slight difference between knowingly settling for the second-best weapon, and not having any clue what TP/WS sets are.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

I think that there's a slight difference between knowingly settling for the second-best weapon, and not having any clue what TP/WS sets are.

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I don't think so, Both cases you willingly gimp yourself.

Knowing which is better and purposefully choosing the worse of the two i think is actually worse than not knowing which is the worse of the two >.<

I don't think he literally meant he would use the badelaire over the almace because it looks better...