ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

ODD cannot proc during WS on relics, this was proven years ago. Now we know you don't know what you are talking about.

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You are totally right about me not knowing if that true or not, I just remember someone saying it was, sort of like how you are just claiming torcleaver is better without providing anything to prove it is, and without even proving you know someone with a 90 ragnarok or with a 90 caladbolg. I guess hearsay isn't reliable.
Heck, you wont even tell us how many WS's you did, how you calculated the damage averages(eyeballing? parser? pen and paper?) what you killed, how many of it you killed, what gear you used, what lvl your weapons are, etc, etc, etc. We're just suppose to believe you based on nothing.

Not that i'm a fan of horrible back and forth. But really, At least Wish is trying to explain his point of view by providing examples/Math where he gets his opinion from.

He's at least providing his side of the argument by backing it up with what he believes to be the reasoning behind his statement.

Picking 1-2 Sentences out of his post and making some asinine comment on it in an attempt to save face by acting like a turd Isn't helping anyone here. Either provide Screenshots /Parses /Evidence that you have Tested 90Caladbolg and 90 Ragnarok side by side under equal circumstances like you claim, Or stop saying you did.

Maybe this argument isn't 100% on topic (I think it is, ITs a discussion about Relics and Empyreans), but going back and forth throwing out random bullcrap statements like "I totally tested 90 Caladbolg and Ragnarok right now, Caladbolg won, Proof? no i dont have any. I'll just read your posts carefully and look for a sentence to take out of context and exploit"

Simply provide evidence, It is all we need. If you are right, why fear bringing evidence? Your tests clearly convinced you you were correct, why not post them and convince us? I don't deny you have proof, I simply wish to understand why you would conceal it.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

When did providing math to back up what you say become trolling?

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That happens a lot here. If you try to defend yourself and your opinion using the best of your knowledge you're apparently a troll.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]


I used this for relic and this for empy. And no they are not the best the final difference is self explanitory as to why better sets won't change the ratio a lot.

general assumptions : I assumed 100% accuracy for both. 30% crit for torcleaver, 35% for scourge. If you don't agree please give the correct value ( I put 10% base crit + 20% base on empy, 10% base + 25% on increase crit IV). I used RCB on both sets. The target is level 97, 90 VIT, 450 def. Both sets use the corresponding gorget + belt. No special buff so everything is outside abyssea no berserk etc. 5% crit damage up assumed. Max GS merits. Didn't assume any specific subjob.

relic set up :
The above set gives 766 attack / 165 str / 87 CHR / 112 MND / 8 multiattack rate ( 8 DA)

1474 damage average

details : average ftp (takes DA/TA into account) 3.280 ; weapon skill D 207 ; average pdif (takes crit rate and crit dmg trait into account) 1.73

the formula for scourge damage is

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((3.0+0.1*(gorget+belt))*(1-da)+ da*(4.0+0.1*(gorget+belt)))*dmg*WSacc*( wscrit*pdif_crit*critdmgup + (1-wscrit)*pdif_normal )*(1+1*0.25);

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with dmg being the wsc

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dmg:=wpndmg+min(floor((STR_WS-vit_mob+4)/4),wpnrnk+8)+floor( floor( (MND_WS+CHR_WS)*0.40)*0.85 );

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empy set up :
The above set gives 801 attack / 170 str / 125 VIT / 10% multiattack rate (10 DA).

1782 damage average

details : average ftp (takes DA/TA into account) 5.05 ; weapon skill D 204 ; average pdif (takes crit rate and crit dmg trait into account) 1.73


the formula for torcleaver damage is

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( (4.75+0.1*(gorget+belt))*(1-da)+ da*(5.75+0.1*(gorget+belt)) )*dmg*WSacc*( wscrit*pdif_crit*critdmgup + (1-wscrit)*pdif_normal);

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with dmg being the wsc

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dmg:=wpndmg+min(floor((STR_WS-vit_mob+4)/4),wpnrnk+8)+floor( floor(VIT_WS*0.60)*0.85 )

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This means that torcleaver is 21% better.



EDIT(18/7) : I removed epona from both sets and put a stat ring instead. I corrected the relic boost and the base VIT/CHR/MND values.

What random statements have I thrown around exactly? lol

BTW your links dont work.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

What random statements have I thrown around exactly? lol

BTW your links dont work.

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I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.

Let alone ever once using math in an argument. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't expect everyone to take them at face value. When it comes to math, I'll general find someone whos more knowledgeable at it and ask their opinion.

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BG trolls are bad at maths

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Lie down over there and tell Dr.Karbuncle why you hate BG so much?.

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What is hypocrite is spaming a certain thread on BG laughing at other sites because they doubt maths demonstrations

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One comment on this, At work do you go around throwing slang to your boss asking him "wassup man?", If you work at any professional location, the answer is no, but you might with your friends. Do you let out a fart in the middle of a meeting? Probably not, But you would at home on your couch.

If you had to use the restroom during a meeting, would you tell your boss you had to take an epic Sh*t? probably not, But you might to your buddies/brothers/etc.

What i'm trying to say is, Trying to put on a happy face here and going to BG to release your rage is no different than the above scenario, Which i do not believe to be hypocrisy unless they at one point previously condemned someone for doing the same act.
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Would i call it shady? Perhaps a little, But Its not really a secret, nor is it abnormal for people to act differently based on where they are.

Point being, its not abnormal to act differently depending on where you are or who you're with. Which is why people who post here from BG GENERALLY try to maintain a positive attitude/try to help (I do, Mostly), And on BG when they post about here they attempt to get all their negative thoughts/words out of the way.

In a way its much better, If they get their nerd-rage out on BG, it makes it easier to not do it here. Does everyone in that thread act the same way? No, saddly, But i do not agree with how some people there act, same as you.

There is nothing wrong with changing your attitude to better suit who you're with/where you are. Rules here are different from rules on BG Also, So that in itself is suitable enough to change your attitude.

Again, Not everyone does this... But i at least try my best to keep things positive.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

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I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.

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The only reason he needs to group you in is that you're a BG poster, obviously. Christ, it was only a 2 year ban.

Can't wear epona's on Drk

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Originally Posted by LancerLeon

Can't wear epona's on Drk

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I used it on both it will not affect anyhting - it will just improve the empy slightly since multiattacks have decreasing returns on pure ws damage. - I just edited the math result it's now 40% better, so yeah...



I'm still waiting for a math justification form wish12oz about how caladbolg can be better than than it's relic counterpart - wish a random statement that goes against ALL players experience.

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I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.

Let alone ever once using math in an argument. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't expect everyone to take them at face value. When it comes to math, I'll general find someone whos more knowledgeable at it and ask their opinion

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You have been asking for a parse (actually no, ten parses) that would have discredited wishor12z, and as such you supported her claims, when in reality you should have actually asked the parses to him.

Atomic was the one going around saying he had parses and testing with him and his friend using empy and relic that proved empy was better than relic.

How is it so wrong to ask for Atomic to actually show these parses he says he did?

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You have been asking for a parse (actually no, ten parses) that would have discredited wishor12z, and as such you supported her claims, when in reality you should have actually asked the parses to him.

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Both sources could have provided any amount of tests i would have gladly accepted. In reality you just seem to be bringing it up as if i was defending wish, I was not.

Someone made a statement saying they had tested Ukon, and Bravura, side by side, And i was interested in those testing results.

You are the one giving me ulterior motives that were not my original intent. From my Iwish himself did not have the means to test, He only had his theoretical data, which is usually good, But i was interested in seeing real experience/parses.

If that doesn't make very much sense I'm sorry, But it was my intentions, I wanted the knowledge Atomic claimed to have.

And i still fail to see how any of this was me throwing out "BG Maths" and "random statements". Because, It was more of a question i do think.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Atomic was the one going around saying he had parses and testing with him and his friend using empy and relic that proved empy was better than relic.

How is it so wrong to ask for Atomic to actually show these parses he says he did?

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It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

From my Iwish himself did not have the means to test, He only had his theoretical data, which is usually good,

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Do you have an empy ? I don't think you do. The day you get a level 85 one it's obvious that the damage nearly double instantaneously thanks to the WS, and the aftermath makes it godly. You don't have that on relic since they are just evolutions from level 75 weapon with slight boost here and there. Common sense tells you why they are much better. Plus on some relic the WS itself was already bad at 75 so you have a weapon that has a DPS like 20% better than a normal weapon with a WS that may be 25% better than a WS that was bad at 75. In the end you can't beat a weapon that nearly doubles damage. Common sense tells you that it is necessarily wrong.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Do you have an empy ? I don't think you do. The day you get a level 85 one it's obvious that the damage nearly double instantaneously thanks to the WS, and the aftermath makes it godly. You don't have that on relic since they are just evoutions from level 75 weapon with slight boost here and there. Common sense tells you why they are much better. Plus on some relic the WS itself was already bad at 75 so you have a weapon that has a DPS like 20% better than a normal weapon with a WS that may be 25% better than a WS that was bad at 75. In the end you can't beat a weapon that nearly doubles damage. Common sense tells you that it is necessarily wrong.

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You are corrent in that no, I do not own an Empyrean, I have 5 friends with them, But its irrelevant (i'm working on Mandau), But what is important is that, as you say, Using common sense and to the best of my abilities i will name a few Relics that should outperform their Empyrean counterparts in pure damage at level 90.

1) Mjollnir. (Its still counts!)
2) Amano. (Easier 5-hit)
3) Guttler (Farsha is Meh, 90 Guttler has it on DPS, Rampage > w/e so Aftermath staying up on Farsha gimps your WS damage phase, no?)
4) Mandau (This one i can't say for sure)
5) Gugnir (Rhong... is kinda meh, Gutler, despite shitty WS, is better. Higher DPS, and Its Drakes drakes anyway)
6) Apocalypse (self explanitory)
7) Annihilator

Of course I have no proof, Its all using as you said, Common sense, and in my opinion common sense tells me the above Relic weapons should almost always outperform their Empyrean counterparts, if only for pure damage (Ignoring utility, like say Coronochs almost non-existant enmity gain)

Thats my take on it. Opinions as far as the eye can see.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

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Ahem. I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying.

But There was no attitude in my post. You are the one giving me some ulterior motive. My post was nothing more than seeking knowledge that one person said they had.

I did not care one bit about the tiff you had going on with Wish, and i was not taking sides. If my posts came off differently, I assure you it was coincidental. I had no ill intent behind it. Just because me and wish both post on BG doesn't mean we have secret PM Sessions on how to p*** people off.

I saw a chance to learn, I took it. From my understanding Wish was not basing his math off of actual in-game tests. Atomic said he was. This was knowledge i wanted. nothing more, nothing less.

do not put words in my mouth or motives in my actions. I assure you, i had nothing but the desire to learn, and from my best understanding, Atomic was the one claiming to have actually gone out and done side-by-side comparison tests thoroughly enough to prove without a doubt Ukon > Bravura.

i wanted this information. Why? I said it in my post on that page.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

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Wish didn't say he had actual parses of it because he doesnt have either or knows people with it. He posted his math to back up his claim.

Atomic said he had done in game testing, so lets see it. Wish never said he did.

If someone makes a claim, and then someone else says "You're wrong, i did testing that proves it" and then fails to produce said results, its on them, no one else.

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

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I never said I had either weapon, in fact I said I do NOT have either, I simply posted math saying if all things are equal ragnarok is better, as long as you gain 17.5% damage from the aftermath and acc.

As for your math for the gear sets you use, you probably did something wrong, and I will be looking into it today at some point to find out.

Atomic said they did testing, and that cala was better, I simply asked for information about the testing, and was told 'I wont tell you anything other then cala is better.' And after what happen with that other guy, who claimed to have a relic and turned out to be some random noob with nothing, I am not inclined to believe anon people who won't provide any sort of proof.

EDIT: Currently sitting at 69 carabosse gems and 52 cc lanterns, maybe I should quit being lazy and go do pre trials for masamune and caladbolg =[

If I recall correctly the goal was to bring the relic and mythic weaponskills up to the same level as the empyreans? I cannot quote it exactly but the general meaning of what the Dev was saying at the time was that they did not want to bring down the empyreans so instead they were going to bring to relic/mythics up to the level of the empyreans. Is this still the plan? I only bring this up because some of us that spent years making these weapons would like to have the WSs be valid top-shelf contenders instead of novelty WSs. I appreciate any time that a Dev could put into responding to this question. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

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The best math is still estimates(Very accurate estimates...). *sigh* I Can't explain what I'm trying to say well enough. I mean, When comparing two weapons... Do you assume capped Accuracy. Capped Attack? If not what DEF/EVA Values do you compare them against? I'm not being sarcastic I'm admitting my lack of understanding in this field, Could you enlighten me?

I'm not unaware Parses can also be skewed because of things like not engaging fast enough, dying, etc.

When i asked Rune for those parses, I assumed he had (And asked for, go look) tests on Voidwatch, something i was interested in seeing comparisons in, because that kind of content (not specifically voidwatch, but non-abyssea HNM-level) is what direction FFXI is going in. And i was interested to see how Those two weapons stood up next to eachother.

Again, Yah, Math is lovely, it tells us so much about the game, and they are incredibly accurate, But when i can get my hands on a real parse, I want it, Because for me its easier to understand and its relevant to my interests so to speak.

I don't deny the math, But sometimes having multiple sources of it makes it simpler to understand, For instance, for me, a lot of the math shit is babble, i literally tl;dr and skip to the % Values. Its what i do. Parses are easier for me to understand.

I saw a chance to learn something i found interesting, I took it. It didn't pay off, but i'd take it again no matter who was asking.

And again, I didn't ask Wish, because from what i read, he had no parses, Only the math, I wanted both sources for the reasons i explained above.

If you still don't understand why i did it I'm sorry.

Edit: And really, When it comes to math, don't you ever notice people trying to skew it in their favor? Your math Says Caladbolg, Wish says Ragnarok, Who are the readers suppose to believe? Thats another issue i have with taking shoulder-math at face value.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Do you assume capped Accuracy. Capped Attack? If not what DEF/EVA Values do you compare them against? I'm not being sarcastic I'm admitting my lack of understanding in this field, Could you enlighten me?

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Accuracy : I gave the answers. Torcleaver is 40% better if capped 15% if not.
Capped attack : I didn't assume dia 1,2 or 3 so nope. Capped attack is done at 2.2*450=990 attack so we are quite far. You can do a more precise description if you assume beserk available, or dia 3, which is going to decrease the benefits form crit rate and therefore increase the benefits from the empy ODD.
def : I put 30 more def than level 87 mobs which puts them on HnM levels (same as fafnir vs mamoolja at 75). Already gave my attack value and mob's def.

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I'm not unaware Parses can also be skewed because of things like not engaging fast enough, dying, etc.

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You asked for parses on weapon skill, so irrelevant.

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Again, Yah, Math is lovely, it tells us so much about the game, and they are incredibly accurate, But when i can get my hands on a real parse, I want it, Because for me its easier to understand and its relevant to my interests so to speak.

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I will just suggest you to get an empyrean first to check what kind of weapons they are. People already parsed their WS numbers to pinpoint the value of WS mods. There is no need to to it again.

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Edit: And really, When it comes to math, don't you ever notice people trying to skew it in their favor? Your math Says Caladbolg, Wish says Ragnarok, Who are the readers suppose to believe? Thats another issue i have with taking shoulder-math at face value.

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Me. I detailed the math while giving 2 concrete gearsets with therefore actual value for WS mods. He made incorrect assumptions which was assuming you could WS with the same amount of MND/CHR/STR/VIT on any set. It's like comparing WAR and BLM melees and assuming both are capped on accuracy.

Pchan is almost always wrong and skews numbers to make himself look right so no, I wouldn't trust him with anyting.

3,8k SA + Mercy stroke outside of abyssea, i won xD

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

I used this for relic and this for empy. And no they are not the best the final difference is self explanitory as to why better sets won't change the ratio a lot.

1301 damage average
1834 damage average

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Ragnarok
121 badedamage 90+68str 64+48mnd 62+25chr
121 158 112 87
(121+18+38+29)*3.28*1.73*1.25=1461
206 675.68 1168.9264 1461.158
1461 Average

Caladbolg
120 basedamage 90+73str 78+32vit
120 163 110
(120+19+56)*5.05*1.73=1703
195 984.75 1703.6175
1703 Average

Why is it that when I use your pdif value, and my characters stats with your sets my numbers are so much different than yours? Not that either of these sets are optimal, I'm just pointing out that you must of done something wrong cause my torcleaver isn't that far ahead of scourge, like 15%, not 40% =3

I corrected an error and used your values for base mnd/chr. Also you forgot the +15 vit on the empy. I now find the empy 20% better. Give me a hitrate and I will ajust the food and the ws gear on both gear to still make it that much different. Although I bet they both are getting innate ws accuracy boost...

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

I corrected an error and used your values for base mnd/chr. Also you forgot the +15 vit on the empy. I now find the empy 20% better. Give me a hitrate and I will ajust the food and the ws gear on both gear to still make it that much different. Although I bet they both are getting innate ws accuracy boost...

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WS accuracy will be 95%, both are simple 1 hit WSs.
TP accuracy will not be. If you look at my accuracy doing voidwatch the other day, I had 85%, on warrior, which wears about 50 more acc in gear then my drk.
I could shrink that damage gap between WS's further if I cared to look into gear for ragnarok and try to find out what to use, but I don't. The question was 'When is Ragnarok better' the answer is 'When you need the accuracy, or if the crit rate increase on it is above 30% it stands a very good chance of being better' And with the standard DRK TP set not really having any accuracy, I'd say there's a good chance Ragnarok would pull ahead at 99 all the time regardless of whether or not SE adjusts it any further, since accuracy will be an issue and actually matter again like it did at 75 cap.

And really, the only real problem here honestly, is that Torcleaver has better WS gear. If they had the same WSC stats/da/pdif/etc Scourge would win. So it's not that Scourge is worse, its that it has inferior WS gear, so it needs to try and make up for that in the TP phase to win.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Ragnarok
121 badedamage 90+68str 64+48mnd 62+25chr
121 158 112 87
(121+18+38+29)*3.28*1.73*1.25=1461
206 675.68 1168.9264 1461.158
1461 Average

Caladbolg
120 basedamage 90+73str 78+32vit
120 163 110
(120+19+56)*5.05*1.73=1703
195 984.75 1703.6175
1703 Average

Why is it that when I use your pdif value, and my characters stats with your sets my numbers are so much different than yours? Not that either of these sets are optimal, I'm just pointing out that you must of done something wrong cause my torcleaver isn't that far ahead of scourge, like 15%, not 40% =3

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STR 91+79
VIT 78+51
Attack 759 (did not use Last Resort)
Level 85 Caladbolg (still gathering hearts)

Went out and used Torcleaver 10x on Seabord Vultures. after 10 WS there didn't seem any point to continuing because the damage hardly varied.

First number is TP, second is WS damage.

103 / 2045
126 / 2155
108 / 2351
102 / 2279
118 / 2216
120 / 2353
100 / 2310
124 / 2159
109 / 2355
121 / 2431

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And with the standard DRK TP set not really having any accuracy

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My DRK tp set has +34 ACC +26% haste.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

STR 91+79
VIT 78+51
Attack 759 (did not use Last Resort)
Level 85 Caladbolg (still gathering hearts)

Went out and used Torcleaver 10x on Seabord Vultures. after 10 WS there didn't seem any point to continuing because the damage hardly varied.

First number is TP, second is WS damage.

103 / 2045
126 / 2155
108 / 2351
102 / 2279
118 / 2216
120 / 2353
100 / 2310
124 / 2159
109 / 2355
121 / 2431

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Which is right where damage should be if your attack is capped. And I dunno anything about those birds, except that they probably have low defense.
I mean if you look at your stats, theyre slightly above what I did the math for earlier, so you're looking at like
215*5.05*2.2=2388.65
Maybe you should figure out what the mobs stats are before you go assuming that it has some hidden effect no one knew about when they figured out the WS properties, to me it just looks like you have capped attack.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

My DRK tp set has +34 ACC +26% haste.

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So you dont use aces hose, calc trousers, aces shoes, etc, you give all that up for acc? With a Ragnarok you wouldn't have to.

I will just wait til august to see what our trial is and how much of an increase it is. I am done bitching and complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

I will just wait til august to see what our trial is and how much of an increase it is. I am done bitching and complaining about it.

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I hope they increase Mandau by more than 1 base dmg :D

I have a feeling I will be swinging a 150 damage weapon :) with 40 Acc and another 50% WS boost

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Which is right where damage should be if your attack is capped. And I dunno anything about those birds, except that they probably have low defense..

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You don't cap attack on anything that is decent challenge or high easy prey at 90. If he capped with 759 attack that would mean the mob had 759/2.2=345 DEF which puts them on mamoolja levels so nope. The high numbers on his weapon skills are due to no level correction, period. If you redo the maths I did in post #603 with no correction you get 2140 instead of 1782 average. For the info a capped attack torcleaver on level <= 90 mobs would average ~2600 with the gear I gave which is probably not very elitist.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You don't cap attack on anything that is decent challenge or high easy prey at 90. If he capped with 759 attack that would mean the mob had 759/2.2=345 DEF which puts them on mamoolja levels so nope. The high numbers on his weapon skills are due to no level correction, period. If you redo the maths I did in post #603 with no correction you get 2140 instead of 1782 average. For the info a capped attack torcleaver on level <= 90 mobs would average ~2600 with the gear I gave which is probably not very elitist.

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So you're in agreement with me, and Atomic needs to go fight something that is actually difficult and tell us what the numbers are?
I wish my friend who has Caladbolg didn't quit, or that I bothered to do all these dumb pretrials I'm currently doing so I had one =/

It's funny how Atomic suddenly disappeared and won't give numbers for harder stuff since I mentioned I will have a Caladbolg in a few days. Must be afraid of getting caught lying and not actually having one.

EDIT: 6 Urds, 6 whatevers and then 6Tammuz/Chesma and I'm done with the 85.

It is funny how you get corrected everytime you call him or me. Not sure what you want to prove with your next weapon either. Maybe you want to disprove math with parses ? It lije BG went back in time. Those weapon skills have a ftp and mods that were tested long ago, probably by JPs, and you want to go out of the wood and attempt try to prove you are right and maths are wrong. So far his numbers are corrobating the math behind.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It is funny how you get corrected everytime you call him or me.

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More like, it's funny how you get corrected every time you say anything.
I remember this one time you talked about how you couldn't kill Dragua without super tons of earth resist gear and it was noob to brew it, then like a week later people found you brewing it, and someone showed it was easy without any earth resist gear or MDT: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/20...mnk/8/#1280665 It was somewhere in this thread around here.

Or that other time here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ll=1#post54703 when I called you out and proved you wrong and you ran away and ignored it. Maybe you should do that again, cause I'm tired of talking to you.

And there's nothing anywhere talking about a cratio or pdif bonus for torcleaver, guess I'm stupid to think if people figured out the properties of the WS and how to calculate it's damage they would list all of that information on the wiki and other places, and not just list some of them.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Maybe you want to disprove math with parses ?

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So this is ok when Atomic does it, but not anyone else? Not even a parse, Atomic listed 8? WS's damage numbers on a mob no one knows anything about and doesn't list gear, no SS's, no anything, just says "I had these stats and got these numbers" and you take his word as fact for proof of your side of the argument. How about we test the WS on harder mobs? How about we have Atmoic show some kind of proof he actually has a Caladbolg and a Ragnarok so we know he is at least able to test this stuff, instead of just listening to the person who obviously has something to hide and won't even reveal his characters name/server. It wouldn't be the first time someone came around on these forums claiming to have stuff and knew everything and ended up not having anything.

And BTW, as I pointed out earlier, Scourge is the better WS, if everything was even it would win, Torcleaver only does better cause it has better WS gear, unless it really does have some kind of pdif bonus that somehow mysteriously evaded the notice of the people who figured out how the WS's damage is calculated.

just qqing because relic beats their emp is all

The 35acc from Ragnarok is very very useful on DRK. (the crits are impressive as well) The reason Apoc is still the best DRK weapon is because you can cap haste and acc on the hardest mobs in the game, something you can't do with any other DRK weapon. Capping haste and acc is the current bane of DRK.

Torcleaver is a beast of a WS and its damage scales with TP which is a big bonus over Scrouge esp with items like Moonshade which guarantees a 5.0+ modifier.

I stopped posting in this thread because A: It's not going anywhere and is now a complete waste of time. And B: wish12oz is obsessing over people that don't display their character info and is obviously trying to track me down in game by getting me to give details on my equipment.

Also I don't have Ragnarok and never claimed that I did (I'm not dumb enough to waste that much time and gil on not-Apocalypse) I have Caladbolg, someone else in my Ls has Ragnarok.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

The 35acc from Ragnarok is very very useful on DRK. (the crits are impressive as well) The reason Apoc is still the best DRK weapon is because you can cap haste and acc on the hardest mobs in the game, something you can't do with any other DRK weapon. Capping haste and acc is the current bane of DRK.

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With Apoc you can wear the full DRK AF3+2 set and get all of it's bonuses and still have capped haste.

No, he doesn't care what gear you have to "stalk you down" Just wants to verify what gear sets you were using in your "tests"

Im sure he doesn't even care if its a game screen shit and just make an AH gear set.

You're way to paranoid about people finding out who you are. If you honestly believe the things you are saying, you would have no need to hide who you are.

Seriously, if you are going to make claims like this, you need some proof to verify it.

Im not sure how hes going to "track you down" when you arent even on the same server.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

And BTW, as I pointed out earlier, Scourge is the better WS, if everything was even it would win, Torcleaver only does better cause it has better WS gear, unless it really does have some kind of pdif bonus that somehow mysteriously evaded the notice of the people who figured out how the WS's damage is calculated.

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Using your logic : pup would be better than monk if it had the same martial art value or cor would be useful if bard did not exist. Unfortunately ws mods are what they are and your wanting to have your shiny weapon stay the best will not change this.