Relic Weapon Skills at Level 99

I've never had any problem at all keeping at least a level 1 aftermath up at all times when I'm not proccing in VW. Ussually it's level 3 because of wings and that's often outside of ideal circumstance. Worst case you are fighting something like Kaggen with shitty amnesia AoEs and then you start seeing drops in ODD rate but you really shouldn't take that big of a hit unless he catches you right before you overwrite an aftermath that is about to wear. I can't imagine it ever getting as low as 18%.

I could care less about Emps staying on top (which is still extremely relative). The issue is that you can't globalize Relic buffs. Some Relics are solid, others aren't. They're far less consistent than Empyreans, and some are still better for utility than pure damage - giving them both would be scary. Imagine if Yoichi could outdamage Gandiva while still generating near-null Enmity.

My point wasn't that Relics didn't need buffs, but rather than Relics need to be looked at much more closely than a simple across-the-board boost or a buff to Relic WS. Buffing some Relic WS +50% still won't make them worth using as a primary skill, and you'd still fall into the same trap that Empyreans fall into - only being able to use 1 WS effectively, even if that WS isn't the best.

Ukonvasara and Verethragna are good poster children for Empyrean powerhouses, but people often neglect to mention that Bravura and Spharai are pretty awesome Relics as well - Spharai moreso after tomorrow's update. When you look at the whole list, Mandau is still the best Dagger in the game, Annihilator destroys Armageddon, Yoichi is far more useful than Gandiva, Apocalypse destroys Redemption, Mjollnir has always been the top club by a mile, and Ragnarok should handily beat Caladbolg post-99.

The fact of the matter is, Emps are not globally on top. It's not even an isolated case or two either. Spharai is stronger than Verethragna, straight up. Many Relics are also far more useful than Emps due to the more varied nature of their WS/Aftermaths.

I think people in general really need to take a long, hard look at their Relics and this 99 update and figure out just how much weaker they really are. There are Relics that really need fixing - Emps too. It's just not a global thing. If we want to set aside Relics to fix, Kikoku, Gungnir, and Guttler easily have it the worst. Likewise, Redemption, Farsha, and Rhongomiant could use some serious work. These things should be handled individually, though. Simply "Buffing all Relics" will get us nowhere, and cause an even worse power gap in the system.

Problem being that people love to ignore the utility aspects of relics and what they offer to them/their group compared to an extra 1000~2000 or so damage on their weaponskills.

I think we are on the same page then GG. I agree that a global buff for relics would be asinine because it would break some and leave some in the realm of garbage. I even said that a few pages back. My mandau for instance is well balanced with Twashtar and needs very little. I would most like to see WS damage scale with TP and I would like my 3x damage to proc on additional hits. Beyond that it's fine. The relics that get to use their WS really don't have much to complain about and I have never truly complained about my Mandau. I really don't think anyone made the argument that all relics suck but that's what some people seem to think we are saying. This thread started with the intent to get peoples opinions on individual relic WSs and what they needed/wanted but like all other relic related thread sit got hijacked and turned into a relic vs. emp (hey what about mythics) thread.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Problem being that people love to ignore the utility aspects of relics and what they offer to them/their group compared to an extra 1000~2000 or so damage on their weaponskills.

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I think a lot of people are overstating those effects as well.

@Insaniac

That is why it is a medium ground for ODD, the adjustments were meant to show that the possibility to go higher or lower exist for emp, but that even with hidden adjustments relic hidden did not compare because it is a low percentage constant static. In current status it shows this even more by being restricted to the first hit (a point we both agree on). People like to use very small windows to express overall performance, I was merely allowing for instances that fall outside of those windows because they are inconsistent variables that do change depending on situation and circumstance.

Nothing I said shows that is the over all average as each situation changes the average, just that it was a possible medium. Even with this assumed medium it doesn't negate the fact that relics still need adjustments since at this range of medium emp still come out on top, especially so in ideal circumstance. The primary reason for a 60% adjustment was to show that is how much it would need to be adjusted on average, all the time, just to eve consider that the change to relic hidden to become "too strong." As you stated, this is not an over all average, but it is a possiblity I wanted to touch on to show just how much of a difference there is between the ODD aftermath and an always active hidden.

Just because it is always active doesn't mean it is equal or even close to ODD aftermath unless you put strict limiters on it. I also wanted to account for the few emp that have WS that aren't ideal for use. Being in an LS were you see both relics and emps everyday, the middle ground has to be established if you want to even hope to have a worth while standing (unlike those who want to hijack the thread and use highly situational comparisons).

And at this point my cold is messing with my train of thought so I'm not sure if I make total sense the entire time here....

I wish currency was 11-8k on bismark...funny how i've had my currency for less than that in my bazaar for 3 days now with 0 purchases. Maybe you need to play more and see all the shouts selling it for 5-7k now. All you see is the overpriced currency like I have in my baz and assume that's the going price. The stuff you see in rollanmart is the stuff people didnt buy! Just cause I put it at 10k and you see it doesn't mean that's the going price. It's there cause its not 8k and instantly purchased. If I put a HMP there for 200k, would you assume that's the going price too?

Relics don't cost 130-200m, mine cost me 0 gils. It only costs if you buy it. It's easily soloable.

And OP, I just finished my 75 relic (yoichi), so am I allowed to post now?

Bravura vs Ukkos, bravura will win when you are soloing mobs, so that's one case where bravura is stronger.

Twilight torque is 5% dt, not 10%.

Easy to farm HMP by spaming VW huh? I've done over 600 VW battles, over 200 Qilins alone, only gotten around 200 hmps ever. Unless you had crazy ammounts of CP and AN like me, or blow 20k gil per voidstone buying them, good luck spamming VW. I've spent all my free daily stones, 850k cp, 300k AN so far buying stones. The avg player has no where near that much to spend. I had the money, it still took me 1 month to find enough HMP to buy. I only had around 100 HMP i got from vw myself when I completed it, and that was with very little competition. Alot of people are buying them up now, and less and less doing t3 VW. Getting to be like alex, but not as bad.

Come tomorrow we'll have 99 available. Let's see how many 99 relics there will be vs 99 empys.

In a zerg situation, a bravura keeps up with Ukon easily. First off all when you zerg you will use sekkanoki, you won't ws at 300%. Well maybe you would, I don't. I'd rather pump out 2x 5k ws instead of 1. Dot dmg on both weapons is on par, I've parsed many zerg battles with 95 ukon vs 95 bravura. You'd be surprised. Heck apoc dot dmg keeps up with ukon easily. You normally see big numbers with ukon when blood rage and zerk is up. When it's down both ws are comparable, but ukon still easily stronger.

Anyhow you should have 1 war with brav 1 with ukon in your alliance, or one guy with both lol. Go make an ukon instead of whining. Or make that almace instead of the excalbur if all you care about is dps. My ls leader has all 3 weapons, and both shields, using them based on the situation and battle. I never hear him whining about how this suck and that sucks.

If you use 130 mil worth of currency to get something it still cost you 130 mil because you could have sold it and had 130 mil. Even if someone randomly walked up to you and gave you a relics worth of currency which you used to get a relic instead of spending months farming it, it still cost you 130 mil. Please never say relics are free ever again.

That logic works both ways. Empys should cost millions too, because you could have sold those soulstones and t3 vnm spawns instead of making your ochain or harp? Could have sold all the glavoid shells moth wings and orthrus claws to buyers as well, thus ukon costs millions as well? Exping isn't free cause you are taking someones leech spot worth 200k?

If you won a relic from the moogle lotto, is that free then? Or should you have taken a 10000 currency and sold it?

Just cause others pay 130m, doesn't mean that's what it costs. I spent 0 gil on it, thus it's free. All it cost me was time and my monthly fees.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Apoc.

Make the haste aftermath counted as it's own type of haste or at least magic haste, putting it as gear haste in a time when capping gear haste is so easy ruins its main claim to fame.

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Same ,agreed and thank you. The aftermath from apoc = where? almost all jobs get cap haste so what are we gaining other than the drain?

and SE if you not gona fix our relics at least remove the rare/ex from them so we can sell them >.> and buy pet foods which is realy worth more than the relics right now.

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Originally Posted by Brook

Same ,agreed and thank you. The aftermath from apoc = where? almost all jobs get cap haste so what are we gaining other than the drain?

and SE if you not gona fix our relics at least remove the rare/ex from them so we can sell them >.> and buy pet foods which is realy worth more than the relics right now.

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What you gained was the ability to wear attack gear in place of haste gear. i havent had an apoc past 75 but at 75 that was huge.