On Red Mage melee...

You have to dismiss any claim about "hybrid" gear, its usually people finding excuse's for why their inventory always seems to be full no matter how much space SE gives us. At 60 it was "full", at 70 it was "full" and at 80 it was "full" now with mog sack and mog satchet.. its still "full". To properly melee on RDM will require twice as much gear as other jobs for the simple reason that you have two different facets. Thing is you shouldn't ever have both full sets on you at all times, your role is decided when you leave the MH by which sub you choose. If your going "mage" then bring your mage gear and leave most if not all the melee stuff at home. If your going "melee" then bring your TP / WS sets and a then only a few other sets, namely "emergency healing" "basic melee enfeebling" and "melee enhancing" with the possibility of a token nuke set thrown in.

Now for the reason "hybrid" gear is a complete BS argument. In FFXI we switch our gear depending on the action we must do. WAR's don't WS in TP gear, and they don't TP in WS gear. Your going to TP in the best TP gear you can get, WS in the best WS gear you can get, and cast in the best casting gear you can get. You will not TP in a casting piece just because it has a few melee stats on it. If there is a better TP piece available you will be wearing that piece instead of some "hybrid" piece. If there is a better casting piece available then you'll be using that to cast instead of some weaker "hybrid" piece.

Ex,

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Attack +10
Haste +2%

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
INT +15
MND +15
MAB+5
M.Acc+5

Obviously those two pieces have dedicated functions. Now let me introduce a "hybrid" body piece.

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Acc +5
Atk +5
Haste +1%
INT +8
MND +8
M.Acc +2
M.Atk +2

There a piece that has parts of both the above specialized pieces but isn't better then either. No one would possible TP in that if they had access to the TP body piece, conversely no one would Nuke in it if they had access to the Nuke body piece. What the "hybrid" people really want is this,

Omega Supreme Body Piece
Attack +15
Accuracy +15
Haste +5%
INT +15
MND +15
M.Atk +10
M.Acc +10

They want gear that is the "best" at both melee and casting. This isn't "hyrbid" gear, its simply new casting gear.

Considering AF3+2 stats, is this gear really much to ask for? But honestly, a Hybrid Gear setup wouldent be that good, or that bad.

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy+15
Attack +10
Haste+5%
STR +10
DEX +5

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
Magic Acc+10
Magic Atk Bonus +5
INT+10
MND+10

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Haste +3%
INT+ 5
MND +5
Magic Acc +5
Increases Recast Timer on Spells

This seems to be a more realistic Standard. Keeping in mind that the Melee Piece can only be equipped by a melee job and the casting piece can only be equipped by a casting job. But Barring rdm from both of those pieces. considering the real situation is we are at least unable to equip the melee piece. However a Hybrid Piece like the one in my example shows what we need. Something that improves both our roles in retrun for a trade-off, not only that the piece dosent out class ether piece of Melee/Mage gear equippable by a main job of the role.

Oh please, spare us the broken equipment spiel. The fact the issue is even an... issue, is because the options we have haven't been satisfactory in terms of getting people to accept the full breadth of RDM's potential. So, while one person might be fine giving up a good percentage of their mage potential to melee a bit better, if they're suddenly in a situation where they need that? Tough? Congrats, you're then a "bad" RDM or better off playing some other job.

Even giving up hMP, Dark Magic (if not subbing DRK, BLM, or SCH), and (in Abyssea) a Convert set, inventory is still tight while juggling TP, WS, INT, and MND gear. This translates to fewer seals, crystals, or other incidental drops in the long run. This tends to be a problem any mage faces, really, but at least BLM, SCH, and SMN have the luxury of staff WS that feed off their mage gear.

More of the same isn't gonna change RDM's position (Take the last 15 levels, for example... we've fallen behind). And if SE isn't going to address the job directly, it will have to come through gear. Otherwise, we may as well start the loljob memes.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Oh please, spare us the broken equipment spiel. The fact the issue is even an... issue, is because the options we have haven't been satisfactory in terms of getting people to accept the full breadth of RDM's potential. So, while one person might be fine giving up a good percentage of their mage potential to melee a bit better, if they're suddenly in a situation where they need that? Tough? Congrats, you're then a "bad" RDM or better off playing some other job.

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He does have a point, though. And it is one I've touched in a different way when I talked about item budgets earlier in this thread. The potential good hybrid piece simply can't exist without making it broken like all hell. Such is the downside of being versatile at the core with no inherent mechanics to streamline the class in any one direction.

And like I said later in the post, gear's the next step over job-specific qualities. If SE wanted to give us some kind of trait that converted some percentage of INT/MND into meaningful STR/DEX equivalents if you have an enspell active, I'd let up a bit on the idea. Functionally, when people just mass gear swap anyway, the only thing gained by gear consolidation is inventory space. In the long run, is that tantamount to a glaring, overpowering balance issue in RDM's favor? Why is it "fair" that a good, well-rounded RDM in all aspects needs like 120 of 240 overall "active" inventory spaces (80 of main usable aside) while the next joe could get away with just 60? Plan B would be to let us equip things from our sack/satchel just like our main inventory, but you still run into the issue of RDMs basically having to work twice as hard to fully gird themselves while never actually adding up to match the mains. Some might call that the balancing of a hybrid job, but it doesn't quite account for how people don't want hybrids over specialists when a strong niche isn't needed or non-existent. Meanwhile, people know this, so those on the fence don't bother because they'll never get the chance to put said gear to use, so they don't try, so SE thinks RDMs don't wanna melee, and we basically get the Empyrean set that we got.

It's been a stinky situation for years. The whole DoT/pinning solo angle or "stealing WHM's role" didn't help as it merely gave fodder for naysayers to play down class gripes.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

And like I said later in the post, gear's the next step over job-specific qualities. If SE wanted to give us some kind of trait that converted some percentage of INT/MND into meaningful STR/DEX equivalents if you have an enspell active, I'd let up a bit on the idea.

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Then we should probably focus on trying to get the devs to give us something like that. I'd specifically wouldn't gun for INT/MND, though. I'd gun for Magic Accuracy derived from Accuracy and modest or minor boosts to spell potency from Attack. Sure, INT=>STR would mean I'd finally get to melee while wearing the pimp hat, but it just doesn't sit well with me.

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Functionally, when people just mass gear swap anyway, the only thing gained by gear consolidation is inventory space. In the long run, is that tantamount to a glaring, overpowering balance issue in RDM's favor? Why is it "fair" that a good, well-rounded RDM in all aspects needs like 120 of 240 overall "active" inventory spaces (80 of main usable aside) while the next joe could get away with just 60? Plan B would be to let us equip things from our sack/satchel just like our main inventory, but you still run into the issue of RDMs basically having to work twice as hard to fully gird themselves while never actually adding up to match the mains. Some might call that the balancing of a hybrid job, but it doesn't quite account for how people don't want hybrids over specialists when a strong niche isn't needed or non-existent.

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Indeed. It's a sign of how poor balancing of hybrid classes have been for the last decade or so. And that's not just here, but in other MMOs as well. Well, that's barring WoW, but that's because it has been the only game to date that has allowed hybrids to do something other than heal and support in the content that mattered.

On hybrid gear, another gripe I have with hybrid gear is that it deals with the symptom, not the actual problem.

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Meanwhile, people know this, so those on the fence don't bother because they'll never get the chance to put said gear to use, so they don't try, so SE thinks RDMs don't wanna melee, and we basically get the Empyrean set that we got.

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Things would probably have turned out differently if we'd actually gotten some feedback on RDM melee on some of the fansites that were our hang outs before these forums opened up. Hell, I've yet to see any mods set foot in here. DRK and DRG got responses, but we're still in the dark about what the devs intend to do with our class and whether they are even aware of what we need to make RDM more than just a support bot.

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It's been a stinky situation for years. The whole DoT/pinning solo angle or "stealing WHM's role" didn't help as it merely gave fodder for naysayers to play down class gripes.

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Team Tanaka neglecting those issues got us where we are. Communication really needs to open up from the devs and the community team, in my opinion. It's been depressing to see so many Q&A sessions with the devs go without any mention of RDM melee despite all the threads and discussions, really.

Seriha still at the "give me broken gear" argument? I rebuffed you years ago on this. What you want isn't "hybrid" gear, you just want melee + casting gear +1. You want a single set that is the best at everything and keep lying to others that its "hybrid" when its not.
Using Tran's example,

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Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy+15
Attack +10
Haste+5%
STR +10
DEX +5

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
Magic Acc+10
Magic Atk Bonus +5
INT+10
MND+10

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Haste +3%
INT+ 5
MND +5
Magic Acc +5
Increases Recast Timer on Spells

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If I had both the TP body and casting Body I would ~NEVER~ use the "hybrid" piece. Heck the current Teal Body makes a better nuking piece then that "hybrid". The "Hybrid" piece just becomes mog house decoration or town gear. Or it is full timed by people too lazy or too incompetent to make decent macro swaps. The "inventory" argument is complete bull sh!t. You have as much space as you desire, if SE was to give you 20 more spaces you'd just fill it with more specialized casting gear then complain that you don't have room for melee gear.

Our AFv3 was actually amazing casting gear, I was impressed that SE took a single direction with it instead of the schizo approach they usually do. We're still lacking in the melee gear department, I'm carefully optimistic that SE will be looking into that soonish. Honestly the "cheap" and effective fix would be to put RDM on the same gear BRD / BLU is on and call it a day, somehow I doubt they'll do that.

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Team Tanaka neglecting those issues got us where we are. Communication really needs to open up from the devs and the community team, in my opinion. It's been depressing to see so many Q&A sessions with the devs go without any mention of RDM melee despite all the threads and discussions, really.

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This is totally true. What I've come to understand is there is some sort of internal disagreement on the "vision" of RDM. Some devs see it as a "Casting only" mage job while others see it as the multi-role job from previous FF's. Tanaka obviously sided with the "mage" guys. The current team has had its plate full making abyseea and modifying the older content, hopefully they'll take time to give this a serious look. RDM desperately needs a direction to go in. In the past we were basically WHM-1 but with abyssea and level 85+ content RDM can no longer cut it as a healer. We're now WHM-2 and BLM-2, and while we're good enough to get by on our own, in groups we need to contribute more. I find myself being asked to come BLU and WAR to abyssea LS runs rather then RDM, even though I'm the main RDM for the LS. We simply don't have any need for what RDM brings to the table.

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Originally Posted by saevel

If I had both the TP body and casting Body I would ~NEVER~ use the "hybrid" piece. Heck the current Teal Body makes a better nuking piece then that "hybrid". The "Hybrid" piece just becomes mog house decoration or town gear. Or it is full timed by people too lazy or too incompetent to make decent macro swaps. The "inventory" argument is complete bull sh!t. You have as much space as you desire, if SE was to give you 20 more spaces you'd just fill it with more specialized casting gear then complain that you don't have room for melee gear.

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Well keep in mind, my theories are assuming that only the hybrid piece is equipable by rdm. Basically I'm comparing an example of prime job gear to what a hybrid job like rdm would have in response. More then likely we would never be able to utilize most big DD pieces. It would be nice to have gear that pushes us in the melee direction, but along with that were gonna need Traits/Abilities to complement it.

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Originally Posted by Trangnai

Considering AF3+2 stats, is this gear really much to ask for? But honestly, a Hybrid Gear setup wouldent be that good, or that bad.

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy+15
Attack +10
Haste+5%
STR +10
DEX +5

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
Magic Acc+10
Magic Atk Bonus +5
INT+10
MND+10

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Haste +3%
INT+ 5
MND +5
Magic Acc +5
Increases Recast Timer on Spells

This seems to be a more realistic Standard. Keeping in mind that the Melee Piece can only be equipped by a melee job and the casting piece can only be equipped by a casting job. But Barring rdm from both of those pieces. considering the real situation is we are at least unable to equip the melee piece. However a Hybrid Piece like the one in my example shows what we need. Something that improves both our roles in retrun for a trade-off, not only that the piece dosent out class ether piece of Melee/Mage gear equippable by a main job of the role.

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No thanks, Composure added enough to the recast timer as it is and now we more or less have to full-time composure if we do anything non-solo with the EA+2.

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If I had both the TP body and casting Body I would ~NEVER~ use the "hybrid" piece.

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I can't help it you're stuck in the thinking that a hybrid piece has to be all around weaker. Every job should get what every job needs to thrive. To arbitrarily declare some should have to chase twice as much loot, if not more, is not good game design. Doubly so when you consider RDM is still at a disadvantage if they managed to do that in its current state.

Hint: Matching a BLM's INT or MATK doesn't automatically make us better than them as they still have T5s, -agas, and other goodies. Similar applies to WHM with Cure Potency and having their subbable status cures. Working on RDM doesn't exactly mean attention itself should be focused on RDM, but we're at the point where personal diversity is a priority. Even if by some freak of nature we could match a DRK's ATK/STR, we're still bound to swords and daggers, the former further restricted by WS limitations.