It'll do enough, especially if it scales correctly. The idea isn't so much to out-compete other jobs, but to allow the existing function to be used without argument. From that point we can move onto increasing the average performance through gear/job abilities, etc.Quote:
A nice idea, but alone it won't do much. It needs to be part of a larger set of changes. Also, lulzy damage would still be a real negative to having a RDM in the front, as the damage generated by other classes would have a good chance of outweighing the utility.
But that wont get pushed unless there's a utility that allows us to be there in the first place. Too much arguments among players to get any headway with the 'I want nothing but teh bestz' crowd.
Again, half the time they're talking about entirely different situations. I don't want to melee Voidwatch mobs (though I would if I thought it was useful. It's not.) I want it so I can draw my sword without people having a fit about it.
On Red Mage melee...
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06-21-2011, 05:42 AMHyrist
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06-21-2011, 05:42 AMSeriha
Again with 99.9% and all sorts of fun fictional statistics.
Chase down 100 meleeing RDMs on your server, take screenshots, have a parse, link to FFXIAH profiles, the whole nine yards. I'll be disappointed if at least 99 of them aren't in full mage gear swinging a martial anelace. -
06-21-2011, 05:44 AMNeisan_Quetz
I've yet to meet one not meleeing in mage crap either, except myself
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06-21-2011, 05:44 AMDaniel_HatcherDon't get me wrong I have nothing against WHM being able to Melee, more the fact it's better than RDM's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
I should note, I'm on about basic gear set for meleeing, I mean WHM can cap the Equipment haste cap much easier than RDM can. -
06-21-2011, 05:45 AMAuraraLol, poking holes in my argument to make it seem like it holds no water. My argument is still valid, 99.99% was a made up number meant to represent the majority of melee RDM I have met.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriha
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06-21-2011, 05:46 AMHyristThen you've no further place in this conversation, aside from trolling.Quote:
Not possible, in order to make rdm viable on frontlines would have to make it broken.
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06-21-2011, 05:47 AMAuraraRDM can cap easy, lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Turban/sent shield
Goliard NQ dusk/goading belt/3% ASA legs/NQ dusk feet -
06-21-2011, 05:48 AMDaniel_HatcherTo be fair, I have seen a few in just mage gear meleeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriha
I'm personally trying to build a TP set for when I'm bored and still hunting the vile Dark Rings, and Refresh hairpin for WHM. Though finding and getting gear is annoying, still have yet to even see the Goliard Saio let along get it.
I didn't say they couldn't, I said WHM could cap easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
Zelus Tiara and you can get rid of that crap shield as you'd /nin -
06-21-2011, 05:49 AMAuraraExcept I haven't been trolling, I'm pointing out that every one of the ideas that has been spouted out of here would break the balance of the game/overpower RDM and you guys really don't seem to get that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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06-21-2011, 05:51 AMAuraraI left tiara out because people would cry how hard it is to get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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06-21-2011, 05:53 AMDaniel_HatcherNothings hard in Abyssea, Weakness then kill, if you struggle to kill it brew it. lvl.75 content is harder than Abyssea still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
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06-21-2011, 05:55 AMAurara
I know this, i have a tiara, went 7/8, but my statement stands, people tend to make things harder than needed.
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06-21-2011, 05:55 AMRazushuI know WHM haste gear is a bit ridiculous 15% before you start trying, I think they melee better to make up the fact you can nuke(this is speculation on Dev motivations)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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06-21-2011, 05:56 AMDaniel_HatcherLucky. I want that thing so bad, along with the dumb refresh hairpin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
Possibly, I would like to know the Dev's plans for RDM (Well all jobs really), so I know whether to continue to level it to 99, or stop. Hopefully the Job Road-Map will show it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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06-21-2011, 05:57 AMAuraraI have this too, :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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06-21-2011, 05:57 AMSerihaAs have I, I'm just poking fun at this glorious omniscience that speaks of all RDMs on all servers at any given moment. Meanwhile, he's just just chirp, chirp, chirping away on BG how we all have no arguments, whining that we're poking holes, ignoring things, and emitting drab stereotypes while remaining blissfully unaware or willfully ignorant of the thread's premise. As Hyrist pretty much pointed out a few posts back, if they're not even willing to contribute positively, they're not exactly a welcome presence.Quote:
To be fair, I have seen a few in just mage gear meleeing.
Enlighten us, then. What would you do? Nothing is not an acceptable answer.Quote:
Except I haven't been trolling, I'm pointing out that every one of the ideas that has been spouted out of here would break the balance of the game/overpower RDM and you guys really don't seem to get that.
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06-21-2011, 05:57 AMDuelleOf course not. The damage was and still is below par and people were too damn desperate for healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
Firstly, RDM is a melee mage.Quote:
RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.
Secondly, it's impossible to contribute what is expected of a front-liner along with the buff cycles and everything else. If Refresh procced on the whole party from an on-use Job Ability (like the one I mentioned in the Red is Obsolete thread) and haste could be AoEd and lasted 30 minutes, I might be inclined to change my opinion on the matter.
Shackling us to Refresh, Haste and Cures has done much, much more to damage the name of Red Mage than the melee enthusiasts ever have. The bandwagon jumpers loved their fact invites, but that's where it begins and ends.
That's not really necessary. Certain parts of most jobs were kept up to concept. PLD is very well design, as is WHM and BLM. The problem comes with RDM because of balance reasons, and such a situation calls for adjusting the job to still match its concept from previous FFs but with a new spin.Quote:
Drop the previous Rdm argument first though, it isn't a RPG, it's a MMO, so it goes both ways. The battle system/casting sytem doesn't support being able to effectively do what you could in a single player as it does in the current MMO of FFXI.
RDM got a new spin, but it was the wrong and possibly worst spin we could ever get from a design perspective; The magic swordsman turned into a refresh bot.
This is because the original developers wanted to keep the pure generalist design, despite all signs and evidence from the past to show it didn't work and led to something unpleasant, and in the worst cases, pure bait-and-switch.Quote:
What the problem is Red Mage is the focal point of where these two genres (RPG, MMO) Clash, and it classes very hard.
Granted, companies like Blizzard only recently opened their eyes on the matter, and guys like Trion opened their eyes because Blizzard did it first.
False. People will still play what they want to play and will still get brought. Just like how RDM "sucked" the entirety of abyssea as healers yet were still borught for exactly that purpose.Quote:
You ignore the fact that 99.99% of people wouldnt be able to perform the duties of a RDM and would only do "DD" RDM, wouldn't get invites because they sucked, and then would come here and cry for more broken buffs to melee rdm.
False. You've seen the plethora of ideas in this thread alone. That's not even going into my yet-to-be-posted redesign of the job.Quote:
Not possible, in order to make rdm viable on frontlines would have to make it broken.
Not one to defend Hyrist, as he and I disagree a lot on RDM, but stop putting words in his mouth.Quote:
So because I dont like melee rdm/disagree with it I'm not a "career" rdm?
What long term balance effects? The fact that some of us would start meleeing while those that like to heal and support would just keep on doing that?Quote:
Please, I'm not asking you to stop asking I'm asking you to be logical about what you want, and to think about the longterm effects/how it would impact the balance of the game.
The sword is only a means to an end. Red Mage is a combination of thre disciplines: Destructive/Crippling Magic, Healing/Defensive Magic and Martial prowess. We've been 2/3 for too long now, and that needs to be corrected.Quote:
Because swords are feature of RDM, and have always been. This is like saying "war's af1 weapon is an axe, WAR should ONLY use axes!" It doesn't hold water because WAR w/axes is terrible.
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06-21-2011, 05:58 AMHyrist
Goading is harder than Tiara, honestly.
Calmecac Trousers is better than ASA legs, in spite of the Acc Down.
And Sentinel's Shield Murders DW, even if you're not hitting the haste cap without it you're better off taking full advantage of DW.
Most your points are laced with the same bias that's been not only done to death, but disproven before it got accentuated post abyssea.
Some of the ideas are broken here intentionally just to joke around about the elitist mentality that will haunt any and all RDM updates.
And you're flat out lieing to yourself if you think there is such a thing as "Job Balance" in this game. Favorites of Jobs shift with pretty much every major change.
Ex: Samurai. -
06-21-2011, 05:59 AMDaniel_Hatcher:( No fair!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
Hunted that so long, saw countless Dark Rings though less than great but hey, ~30,000 and never even saw a hairpin. -
06-21-2011, 06:01 AMAurara
People would get brought, melee, be terrible at it then get kicked. I'm getting tired of trying to be coopertive, so I'm just gonna end my argument here. If you want spellblade where you can instacast spells from your weapon go right on ahead.
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06-21-2011, 06:15 AMHyristLet's take a look... at Red Mage and Warior.Quote:
Because swords are feature of RDM, and have always been. This is like saying "war's af1 weapon is an axe, WAR should ONLY use axes!" It doesn't hold water because WAR w/axes is terrible.
Warrior:
Bravura (Relic) (G.Axe)
Ragnarok (Relic) (G.Sword)
Conqueror (Mythic) (G. axe)
Ukonvasara (Empyrean) (G. Axe)
Farsha (Empyrean)
So... you have 1 Axe in your list of possible end-goals to get items wise, if someone wanted to. And Look at that, 3 Great Axes.
Red Mage?
Excalibur (Sword)
Mandau (Dagger)
Murgleis (Sword)
Almace (Sword)
Do you see the problem here?
For a job you profess to be a mage class only. Our Trophies, our highest end goals for weapons are all melee weapons. However, to go for these weapons lands me a boat load of harassment, because of the intent to use them.
Ignoring everything else , that alone is an unacceptable problem. I should not feel disuaded to work on an weapon of that calibur because the public opinion of my intent to use such a weapon is low, especially when I have no alternatives available to my job. No matter what side of the camp you are on, that is inherantly flawed. If SE is going to advertise melee end-goals for Red Mage, then they need to back up its front line performance better, period. -
06-21-2011, 06:16 AMDuelleI guess I'll close with you with this then:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
It's not so much about the ability. It's about what it does and how it affects the group. That's what I was getting at with that post. If you want utility tied to the front line action, thats all and good, but it won't matter much in the numbers game if the other pieces of the puzzle aren't there. It never has and never will. Not to mention I'd find that idea much more bearable than buff cycling. -
06-21-2011, 06:20 AMAurara
I guess we both play RDM differently, I appreciate you not being a complete dick and claim to have "won" the conversation/debate like some people do.
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06-21-2011, 06:24 AMNeisan_Quetz
Every mage job has a melee weapon for relic/mythic/emp bar Nirvana which is actually useful even if you don't melee, see lolclaustrum.
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06-21-2011, 06:27 AMDaniel_Hatcher
What's with the tag for this thread: troll tagging 101?
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06-21-2011, 06:29 AMAurara
Beats me, I didn't do it, lol
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06-21-2011, 06:33 AMDaniel_Hatcher
Probably the amount of times "troll" has been said in this thread. :p
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06-21-2011, 06:36 AMHyristThe problem is, Dulle, you're talking about a complete job Rework, and honestly, Red Mage does not need a "Delete, Reinsert" type of working with the job.Quote:
I guess I'll close with you with this then:
It's not so much about the ability. It's about what it does and how it affects the group. That's what I was getting at with that post. If you want utility tied to the front line action, thats all and good, but it won't matter much in the numbers game if the other pieces of the puzzle aren't there. It never has and never will. Not to mention I'd find that idea much more bearable than buff cycling.
The pieces to preform are there. People who down the job's performance are exadurating the gap, even though it is large, and difficult to close.
But even if that gap was closed, you'd have the problem of it not being enough. For someone of the mentality we're being displayed. Simply having Refresh and Haste in our spell list automatically makes us duty-bound to forsake all other aspects of our class, simply to cycle those two spells endlessly. Oh, and throw out an inefficent cure sevral times in a row when needed.
Kind of funny, cause by the time 99 comes around, every single mage or melee job that subs Red Mage will be able to spread haste around. However it will stll be Red Mage's 'duty' to do so. SE would do well to just buck up and give RDM hastega and make it party only. -
06-21-2011, 06:39 AMRazushuSame here waiting "patiently" for itQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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06-21-2011, 06:41 AMAurarafriend has 30 hours total time farmed trying to get it D:Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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06-21-2011, 06:47 AMRazushuThat is awful I once spent a weekend in Aydeewa Subterrane farming Fenrir's crown I lost the will to live... almostQuote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
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06-21-2011, 06:52 AMHyrist
Aurura assumes the worst out of players, which is fine. It all boils down the the individual players, after all.
To cross quote:
No matter what update comes about, it will be up to the individual Red Mages to make the best or worst of it. Again, you woulden't catch me dead Meleeing in Mage gear so long as my Macros are working properly, but the reverse is also the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
But the first step would be making an utility that would be useful in many situations. Deducting an enemy's TP gain is not broken. Truth of the matter is, the game has far too few methods to handle TP attacks, which is why the TP argument is so prominant among melees. Giving Red Mage a front line method to address it would solve a lot of problems across the board.
But it would still be up to the Red Mage to preform well in the front lines. That can be regarded both with playstyle changes, and with further updates. -
06-21-2011, 07:08 AMManaKingLOL no one wins this debate. This debate exists so that people can share ideas. If your purpose was to brainstorm and share ideas, then that is as close to winning as you can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
If you came here to tell people what they already know, then you are redundant at best and wasting your time at worst. I don't care if you want to try to waste my time on this forum, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do it in the brainstorming and theorycraft thread because it is rude to tell people what they should think. -
06-21-2011, 07:26 AMHyrist
Not to metion speaking in absolutist terms.
Someone tells me 'can't', 'never', etc. It translates to me as "I won't try."
There are people who do push the envelope, and have convinced their peers as to the benefits, and they know the risks and know how to weigh them better than those who simply theorycraft or parrot that it's 'bad'.
Of course there's horrible RDMs in the front line meleeing in mage gear. They make my eyes roll too. However, you canot use that as the example for every Red Mage who actually puts the effort into preforming well, nor can you fault those who are making a genuine effort for continuing to persue and request update for, an aspect of the job that is, to this day, still being advertised as the iconic RDM of olde.
Mose of those who are posting in the thread, have persued this at the very least on the hobby level and have all felt the shortcommings. We've also seen the shining aspects of it. This conversation has gone on back or forth a good 8 years and it has influenced some updates for the job. A lot of the arguments being said here, they've been heard, ad nasuem, before the offical boards even came up. So hitting frayed nerves should not be unexpected.
You may not like the solutions that were come up with, or the ideas that are coming about, but we're most certainly not doing it with closed eyes. However, given the furstrations of almost a decade worth of the job becoming a shadow of what it, in many Red Mage's opinions, should be, some of us are willing to see the job get broken first in order to get fixed properly. -
06-21-2011, 07:30 AMAuraraIt appears you missed my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
Edit: I never told anyone how to think, i just said it wasnt efficient, we have different play styles and opinions about rdm, let it go already. -
06-21-2011, 07:43 AMHyrist
That said Aurara, I'd encourage you to try to push your limits in the Melee department on RDM. Even if you find it inefficient, it's an aspect of the job that provides a challenge unique in to itself.
I woulden't go so far to say start Meleeing Voidwatch, of course. But gather the bits of gear, start working on the Magian Swords. (Badelair path if you're leary of trying to get people to help you with Empy drops, then probably OA 2-4 Khanda for offhand.)
Even as a hobby, you might find it as a worthile venture that could change your opinions on the job a bit. -
06-21-2011, 07:52 AMAurara
I have a melee build for rdm, i'm working on STR sword for blu, I'm also working on almace. Making a melee set on rdm would be really easy:
Almace/OAT or STR+9
Zelus/PCC/Brutal/Suppa
Goliard/Dusk/Rajas/Accring
Atheling/Goading/ASA3/Dusk+1 -
06-21-2011, 07:55 AMHyristhttp://www.ffxiah.com/item/11958/calmecac-trousersQuote:
Originally Posted by Aurara
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06-21-2011, 08:02 AMAurara
Seeing as i have the 3% ASA legs already, i doubt i'll spend the $ on those because i never use melee rdm ever.
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06-21-2011, 08:05 AMHyrist
It has a large job list that justifies the purchase if you have other jobs that can use it.
Consiter Dex 9 as well for CDC, as it's a full dex mod. I'd go OA 2-4 just for the superior TP building but that's just more a taste thing, you probably get better results on your BLU using the OAT.
I'm still playing between Raja's/ACC and Lava's-Kusha's.
It's all a matter of tastes though. I prefer to open for others when I'm front-lining on RDM. And the faster TP building in trade for a bit of damage seems to result in higher overall group output, and more burst oppertuinity for myself and other mages.