Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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I'm not limiting my statement to summoner. How you've decided to play summoner makes those specific weapons plenty nice for you.

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Almost no weapon is universally useful for every job that can equip it. As long as it's useful to someone, that's all that matters.

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You aren't going to see people say: "Oh look a Hvergelmir smn! Lets get them!"

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I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Almost no weapon is universally useful for every job that can equip it. As long as it's useful to someone, that's all that matters.

I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

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I never said it had to be universal but it's just funny that for most any dd it's always going to be a full time or near full time gear and yet mages only get a couple uses if that. And just being useful to anyone does not warrant a spot as an empy much less a relic or mythic. These weapons should be top tier and at the very least formidable for multiple purposes of a job.

If you have something else to go off such as past experience with the player or someone knows them then sure but if you're doing some random event or shout group and you have the option of inviting a blu with an almace or a blu with dual mp sticks is that not going to tip the decision? I'm not saying they are going to see some job and go oh hey let's recruit that person to our ls, simply that given someone has good equipment that will certainly tip the scales. An empy doesn't make a person good but anyone who is serious about a job will have it decently geared. So what exactly do you go off of?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

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It's really hard to suck in Abyssea with Ukko's Fury and aftermath. I'm sure some people still manage it, but if they have Ukon then they should at least be a pretty safe bet.

It's easy to suck on Summoner even with Empyrean, but the Empyrean is such a marginal upgrade that getting it shows dedication to the job. Unfortunately, a lot of people are very dedicated to jobs they're horrible at. For instance, every example I know of where someone has completed Claustrum.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.

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People who think that laughable melee is the best and only way to contribute to a group are in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SMN has B skill which is plenty good enough, it's second only to PLD and tied with MNK. I have full strength merits, full staff merits, appropriate gear, etc. I can assure you that coupled with garuda using hastega and predator claws, it is damage that keeps up with anyone else. The only real problem with staff is the WS- If you calculate the base DPS (ratio of damage to delay converted to seconds) the relic/mythic/empyrean staves are right up there with all the other ones. They are not inferior weapons, it is just difficult for the average person to make use of them. That is fine though- They're not for the average person, they're for dedicated specialists who think outside the box.

No tp loss on weapon switching would be nice and allow BLM and SMN to actually make use of Occult Acumen; but this would probably be overpowered for other jobs. Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.

Thats because WHM's main weapon is club, not staff. And Yagrush (sp?) is awesome and the most commonly obtained mythic in the game.

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Ok so I have read into your posts.. Your playstyle is unique, and I welcome that. (so not meaning to troll if this sounds like I am about to) >

Parse any of my melee jobs (use all the ws's you like - I won't even ws for you) vs. your staff (buffing yourself as much as you like) and compare the damage. Even add garuda's predator claws in.. I can guarentee you, any equally-geared / skilled melee job as your smn & garuda combo - the melee will still out-parse you.

Mages weren't designed for melee damage, and although your playstyle is unique and semi-unheard of these days (and as I say I welcome it) - I very much doubt you would out-damage a melee job.

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Mages weren't designed for melee damage, and although your playstyle is unique and semi-unheard of these days (and as I say I welcome it) - I very much doubt you would out-damage a melee job.

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That's not the goal. The goal is simply to broaden our capabilities, not win an e-peen contest. That being said, after putting the requisite effort into it, it works quite well and allows the SMN to kill things more quickly when they are not in danger.

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Parse any of my melee jobs (use all the ws's you like - I won't even ws for you) vs. your staff (buffing yourself as much as you like) and compare the damage. Even add garuda's predator claws in.. I can guarentee you, any equally-geared / skilled melee job as your smn & garuda combo - the melee will still out-parse you.

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If the SMN is smart, he'll claim a naked contest and while the melee is equally equipped (naked) you just parse the hell out of them. Though the claim "equally geared" is pretty rough since to match a SMNs gear choices, a melee would have to wear level 20 armors. I'm assuming you just mean "If a SMN has the best -perpetuation armor, and the melee the best STR, acc, attack, haste armor, the melee will win" which is just duh!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not the goal. The goal is simply to broaden our capabilities, not win an e-peen contest. That being said, after putting the requisite effort into it, it works quite well and allows the SMN to kill things more quickly when they are not in danger.

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Now if only Dallas could realize that.

My only beef with Emp Staff was (emphasis on the was) lack of perp gear to keep avatars out.

Alhanelem made me realize that with that WS, you can keep your avatars out indefinably and you can keep BPs and everything going. I know that Dallas kindof said the same thing, but in a more arrogant than not.

Emp Staff is great in party settings. Can do decent damage and as long as you are able to survive, can outparse gimp DDs. Solo playstyle, I don't think that it would work at all.

I'm glad that Alhanelem got his staff. Good for him!

I really should point out that even without meleeing, a perp staff is really not that important these days, once you have the full empyrean set. There is enough perp and refresh out there that you now have choices of where to get your perp cost down, or your MP up. If you're BP-releasing, using favor, or keeping pets up only for a short time, you don't have to have every bit of perp gear to manage your MP well.

SMN used to have very few gear choices to make at all. Now, there's a lot more to choose from and a lot more methods of playing available. SMN's gear situation has never been better- it just needs some tweaking and adjustments to better compete with other jobs in general situations.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I really should point out that even without meleeing, a perp staff is really not that important these days, once you have the full empyrean set. There is enough perp and refresh out there that you now have choices of where to get your perp cost down, or your MP up. If you're BP-releasing, using favor, or keeping pets up only for a short time, you don't have to have every bit of perp gear to manage your MP well.

SMN used to have very few gear choices to make at all. Now, there's a lot more to choose from and a lot more methods of playing available. SMN's gear situation has never been better- it just needs some tweaking and adjustments to better compete with other jobs in general situations.

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Well, with a full emp +2 gear, with either a fay staff (with -3 perp) or Bahamut's Staff and Evoker's Ring, you can have +1 perp cost (meaning you have +1 mp per tick when avatars are out for those of you guys who don't know) on all avatars outside of day/weather bonuses that gloves give (-1 perp on Caller's Pendant too). That is the best any SMN can get actually. With -2 perp more, can get as much as +3 "Refresh" from gear/traits and that would be the absolute best. Thats just for avatar though, doesn't really affect the player at all except mp usage.

What SE can do that would make us very close (or closer) to actual DDs now would be to reduce BP timers to 30 seconds (either making it so you can't do more than 2 BPs per minute like we are doing, but giving us the choice in WHICH two BPs we want to do, or making it a flat rate of 30 seconds per BPs) and that would give us a shot at being actual DDs. It would make it possible to compete with WARs and NINs now. That is our biggest issue right this minute.