[dev1010] Job Adjustments

I'm only "venomous" because after seeing years of the same old tired excuses against showing RDM some love, it's only now that it's so bleedingly obvious that you still have people doing the same old anti-update song and dance (It's mostly just their own flavor of spite). Now, if you're going to start demanding they take things away from the job, I might've agreed some at the 75 cap (And still think T4 nukes were a bit curious a move, despite their obvious benefit to the "BLM side" of the job and overall relationship with SCH). However, you could consider the general lack of attention until now it's own preemptive loss. And I've even said in the past that buffing other jobs can be indirect buff to RDM by opening the door toward alternative paths for the job. Still, if we're going to insist on taking things away, I'd start with the various exploits that allowed some of the solos people are so quick to hold over the job's head. SE's dabbled on that some with rage timers, regens, regains, flee speeds, outright immunities, and grav resist building, but they still left things like Bind and various DoTs like Bio and Poison largely untouched. And while some may love pinning, enemy pathing AI really should get a look over to eliminate some of the absurdity when it comes to various obstacles. That a fair enough start?

As is, we're only looking at Thunder IV and Gain-STR/DEX/INT as "guarantees" in the future updates, with them not even being a consideration this update with the cap increase stalled. If we knew SE was going to make up for these past 15 levels, I'd let up some. The complete absence of info with the pending adjustments doesn't leave many RDMs with high morale (again... we're a strangely masochistic bunch when it comes to hope for change). Is there a "Part II" ahead? We dunno. We'll be sad if not, though.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Yeah, taking a dump on the rest of the game to fix something that`s not that terribly broken in the first place probably wouldn`t go down too well. I suspect.

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Outside of stuff like Minhocao, I don't know of any NMs or bosses that are balanced entirely around utsusemi, so I'd like you to enlighten me, please.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Outside of stuff like Minhocao, I don't know of any NMs or bosses that are balanced entirely around utsusemi, so I'd like you to enlighten me, please.

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Pretty much everything pre-level cap increase. Blood Tanking can work, but only PLD can do that effectively. Even then, you're still asking for all healers to dump MP on you. I think the only exception is Sky Gods since Utsusemi back then was only just beginning to get exploited.

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Outside of stuff like Minhocao, I don't know of any NMs or bosses that are balanced entirely around utsusemi, so I'd like you to enlighten me, please.

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If we're going to talk in in absolutes, then nothing in the game is entirely based around Utsu OR Counter, it's all down to personal preference. Let me think though, off the top of my head Bukhis is a great example where blink tanking shines. In fact, ninja is a great tank for a lot of stuff in Abyss. Then again I'm not sure what i'm trying to prove here (or why I have to prove anything), as nerfing utsu and counter would do nothing to help RDM.

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I'm only "venomous" because after seeing years of the same old tired excuses against showing RDM some love, it's only now that it's so bleedingly obvious that you still have people doing the same old anti-update song and dance (It's mostly just their own flavor of spite).

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That's the thing though, it's typically not that at all, at least from my point of view. It's people trying to talk sense into the debate and generally being ignored or written off as haters.

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Now, if you're going to start demanding they take things away from the job, I might've agreed some at the 75 cap (And still think T4 nukes were a bit curious a move, despite their obvious benefit to the "BLM side" of the job and overall relationship with SCH). However, you could consider the general lack of attention until now it's own preemptive loss. And I've even said in the past that buffing other jobs can be indirect buff to RDM by opening the door toward alternative paths for the job. Still, if we're going to insist on taking things away, I'd start with the various exploits that allowed some of the solos people are so quick to hold over the job's head. SE's dabbled on that some with rage timers, regens, regains, flee speeds, outright immunities, and grav resist building, but they still left things like Bind and various DoTs like Bio and Poison largely untouched. And while some may love pinning, enemy pathing AI really should get a look over to eliminate some of the absurdity when it comes to various obstacles. That a fair enough start?

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Personally I'd suggest waiting until 99 and re-examining everything. There's a few jobs that have been left a bit short between 90 and 99, and RDM is certainly one of them. On the other hand, this is the one time in 10 years that RDM has actually had a break from being an extremely popular job.

You start off on the wrong foot by calling things "exploits". "Exploits" are POS hacking and duping items in Salvage. What you're referring to are considered valid strategies by SE, even if you don't see them as such. Actually, over and over again, we've been told that pinning (for example) is a valid strategy, unless you force the mob into a position where you can stand still and it can't actually damage you. It actually takes some skill and half decent gear to do too, which I think is a point missed by a lot of people. By requesting them to "fix" that stuff, you're effectively asking them to screw over a lot of the RDM's who do like to low man and solo things. People who've put a lot of work into their gear and a lot of effort into their job, basically.

People behaving like all RDMs were out to steal WHM's job or that every one is (interested in) soloing everything under the sun is a stetch at sense, but nonetheless has been used for ages. None can otherwise answer how this theoretical overpowered RDM could handle a 6 man haste/refresh, main cure, nuke, enfeeble, and melee at all the same time if we're suddenly what they think we're asking for. So yes, we've seen plenty of haters over the years.

Well for awhile it did steal whm job least in exp, though fo alot of people a healer is a healer in toau. Sucks though rdm tank will get the final nail in the next update. Again it has been on the top of the pile for a long time, just wait and see what they have planned for 99. Also melees would like to say hi they been there done that over and over.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Well for awhile it did steal whm job least in exp, though fo alot of people a healer is a healer in toau. Sucks though rdm tank will get the final nail in the next update. Again it has been on the top of the pile for a long time, just wait and see what they have planned for 99. Also melees would like to say hi they been there done that over and over.

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Not really, people often pigeonholed jobs into a particular nitch if they think it's more practical or useful. Most real non-Bandwagon RDM's and BRD's pre-Abyssea despised Exp/Merit parties because the general populus forced them into something that limited their versatility or what they could do. And it is hard to go from enfeebling, buffing, healing, nuking, MB, and even the occasional melee scenario, to just healing and occasionally buffing.

When Abyssea had came out and hp reached higher than 3k+, Cure IV would'nt cut it. Atmas gave melees such power that mobs die too quick to warrent enfeebles in most situations, and the increased resistances and immunities to enfeebles furhter hindered our strengths in that aspect. Then to top it off, even the need for refresh has greatly dwindled because of Atmas and /RDM. All in all the game and the players put RDM in an uncompromisng position leaving them with little to do.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

If we're going to talk in in absolutes, then nothing in the game is entirely based around Utsu OR Counter, it's all down to personal preference. Let me think though, off the top of my head Bukhis is a great example where blink tanking shines. In fact, ninja is a great tank for a lot of stuff in Abyss. Then again I'm not sure what i'm trying to prove here (or why I have to prove anything), as nerfing utsu and counter would do nothing to help RDM.

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My response was made at the post that talked about tanking. I simply pointed the finger to the obvious culprits of why certain people feel tank classes like PLD are useless in terms of relative DD survivability.

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Personally I'd suggest waiting until 99 and re-examining everything. There's a few jobs that have been left a bit short between 90 and 99, and RDM is certainly one of them. On the other hand, this is the one time in 10 years that RDM has actually had a break from being an extremely popular job.

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The wait and see approach is fine when you have a decent chance of getting something beneficial and that you actually need. That's not really the case here. We're talking about the job that was one thing but is used as another, with a team of developers that make no actual statement on the class or troll us with stuff like shield mastery. Better to get the foot in the door now than to wait until everything is set and dry, IMO.

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It actually takes some skill and half decent gear to do too, which I think is a point missed by a lot of people. By requesting them to "fix" that stuff, you're effectively asking them to screw over a lot of the RDM's who do like to low man and solo things. People who've put a lot of work into their gear and a lot of effort into their job, basically.

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And yet this is the same stuff that keeps us from getting looked at for changes. It is also the same lame excuse people toss in when RDM asks for changes. I'd give that up in a heartbeat if it meant my class actually took a decent direction and not remained something that would have been hotfixed within hours of being discovered under any other developer team.

All this talk--more like concern trolling to me--about game balance where RDM is concerned is a lot of junk, blowfin. You know it, and so do your lackeys at BlueGartr and the elitist wannabes at Alla. There is nothing wrong about RDM that can't be fixed with some actual gear/JAs/JTs that re-emphasizes Red Mage as the original "fighter-mage" job. I could care less if that means having to bring in an actual White Mage instead of another [fill in "flavor-of-the-month" melee job].

The thinking of you and your kind is the very reason Estoqueur's Armor has absolutely NOTHING pertinent to close combat. Why should it have such stats when the jackals of this playerbase scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of Red Mages actually becoming more than capable of contributing on the front lines?

My quick solutions:

*JT: 2 Tiers of Attack Bonus, 1 tier Accuracy Bonus, Fencer, 4 tiers of an Elemental Enhancement Bonus (increasing the damage and accuracy of both tiers of En-spells), 3 tiers of Auto-Haste (stackable with the Haste spell).

*JA: Doublecast (S-E's held out for far too long with this), Bravery, Faith.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

The thinking of you and your kind is the very reason Estoqueur's Armor has absolutely NOTHING pertinent to close combat.

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Actually Red Mage's AF3 could VERY easily be spun to be powerful melee armor....If they gave us a powerful Elemental Weaponskill. Now I'm not talking about something like Wildfire, but a powerful elemental weaponskill for the sword that is native to Red Mage would put that armor to good use real fast :D