Thief Treasure Hunter

Maybe the best linkshells could do it, maybe.

However most linkshells were struggling to kill him with optimized setups and good people playing support. I don't see 4 thieves keeping up with 4 of the typically stronger DD.

Also remember that Tojil dropped the weapon that made killing Tojil easier so while the first kill was rough, the second+ kills became much easier, especially if monks who didn't get oats as drops were willing to go and get them. I see the fight going on too long, stacked with thieves, and Tojil becoming very resistant to stun, but who knows. Could work.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I don't see 4 thieves keeping up with 4 of the typically stronger DD.

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They wouldn't.

But the arguement is not whether or not they would keep up with MNKs, DRKS , etc. The argument is whether or not the current "best" DD Jobs are necessary to complete the content - to the point where it's impossible to complete content with a THF.

The other issue was touched upon earlier. Not many players gear THF to DD on that level. If they are going to ready up a DD, it's going to be one with more potential. The result of which is a lot of mediocre (being generous) Thieves walking around shitting up the water for the rest of us.

A THF strategy would certainly be more difficult, take longer and be less flexible to mistakes...which is generally why people use better jobs. But it is/was certainly possible.

But again, why would you do it? Lots of easier, better designed DD jobs with more damage potential are just waiting around the city for shouts to join groups.

There's no reason to even think of inviting a PUG Thief, because the job itself, does not offer anything of value relative to other jobs.

Flip that on its head though - Duty Finder gets implemented into FFXI. All of a sudden other DD's start getting to go into delve on PUGs. Groups would still complete content.

At the point the content was released, they were, and that's what matters. New Delve is coming, and it will be the same situation again. You will need the ideal setups.

I think people underestimate just how good 200 accuracy and attack is, it's like having a Bard on your fists.

Scenario:
You want to buy something at auction which you know retails around 400 dollars.
You can take one and only one of the following with you to the auction:
4 x 100 dollar bills (THF)
6 x 100 dollar bills (MNK)

So maybe it can be done with THF, but it's a better bet to take MNK. Now lets say you don't know how good your people are, now it looks like:
2-4 x 100 dollar bills (THF)
4-6 x 100 dollar bills (MNK)

So the perfect THF can get it done, but the less than perfect MNK can get it done. But now let's say you have multiple people, the auction item retails at 32, but you don't know how they are, so assuming 8 DD's, it looks a bit like:
16-32 x 100 dollar bills (THF)
32-48 x 100 dollar bills (MNK)

So do you want to take 8 people who all have to be perfect, or the maximum number of people who don't, because if five of those monks are perfect, 2 of them suck, and 1 of them DC's, you still can win. So yeah, you can replace that DC guy with a THF and still win, but how do you know which MNK is going to DC, and what if you get it wrong?

This is why good DD isn't good the vast majority of the time. You can't know who is reliable, but you can know which jobs have the greatest potential, and successful people build based on what they know takes the fewest risks when the rewards are equal. The only way THF gets to go is if the risks are outweighed by the rewards (ie: Treasure Hunter matters), and even then it's only ever going to be the one.

If I had to boil Thief's plight down to one thing, it would be this: When Treasure Hunter doesn't matter, Thief offers less damage as well as less utility compared to almost anything else.

Monk is an expert at punching stuff in the junk, and also brings Mantra and Formless Strikes to the table. Blue Mage is really good at poking stuff in the junk with a sword, has access to Requiescat, and has all kinds of weird magic that might or might not help given the situation. Dragoon leaps into the air and drives polearms deep into the crotch of all wickedness, and has Angon which is freaking awesome. Even Warrior, which has a PHD in burying great axes in the giant crotches of villainy, has Tomahawk and Warcry.

Thief has Feint, which is about 576% less useful than it was in 2009. If a group has low accuracy in modern content, they're going to need a more permanent solution such as Madrigals or Hunter's Roll in order to kill a bunch of different monsters before being defeated by a time limit. Collaborator would be pretty decent if it were alliance-wide and could be used on a Geomancer who got carried away casting Thunder II on Kurma or some awful crab, but no such luck there, it's party-only!

Even if Thief did exactly the same damage as Monk, it's hard to make an argument for a job with lower max HP and utility abilities that have been outdated.

I'd love to see a Puppetmaster/Scholar type reworking of Thief, given how differently FFXI plays now compared to that distant era when Sneak Attack and Treasure Hunter were huge boons. Heck, the game even works differently now than the relatively recent "attack giant enemy crotch and kill it or die in 60 seconds" period when Feint was amazing!

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Originally Posted by Danita

Main Job
WAR lv. 99

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Gotcha

I kid i kid... I don't argue your points, you seem to fully understand FFXI is a matter of variables, your MNK can be gimp, your THF can be gimp, THF can be > MNK, etc... I don't debate that but the problem is deeper, not everyone seems to comprehend this like you do.

Most of the population believes, that a Great THF wouldn't even be able to out DD a mediocre DD. The stigma is the gap is too huge that in all scenarios even a Mediocre DD > THF. I can tell you, even while PROC'ing in Voidwatch in a scrub party, with my 99 Mandau I've out-DD'd many a Ukon/Vereth MNK who were receiving buffs.

Why? They sucked. This is the reality of FFXI. your job does not mean you'll do better. You can suck. You can fail. No job is exempt from this. My problem is when a group shouts for an unspecified DD, almost literally trying to fill a spot, I can't even get in on THF Despite it being more than fully capable of fullfilling the role because the stigma behind the job is so bad. When a group looking for a last filler-DD who they probably won't even screen if they say "WAR" or "SAM" won't even think about considering a THF, gear checking it, etc... this is the state of the job I'm speaking most toward.

Do we argue a THF Is better than a normal DD? No.
Do we argue that PUG's should accept THF regardless? No.

The only point I'm truly trying to drive at is THF is not as horrible as the majority make it to be, Vacuum math is bad, and that the jobs current situation is due in equal parts to THF being from an era of FFXI heavy on slow battles, and THF getting a bad stigma from the waves of people shitting up the water with their mediocrity.

(OH!) and before i forget. I mention above a few times DDs can suck and THF can do better, but I should note i do not blame PUG people for going with WARs/MNKs/SAMs etc because their margin for error can be considerably better than a THF. for example say a THF is between 10-1000, a MNK might be 100-1200. So you gamble on the MNK being better than a THF as it has more tools to remove the "Idiot" from the equation... They're banking on probability and as I've explained above, them odds favor a more heavy DD, as THF's get sh*t rep from the countless idiots who play the job poorly because of its "not a DD" stigma which adds to the stigma in a vicious cycle.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Spanks Response!

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You rustled my jimmy card... But, I can't rebut because your argument is 10 levels of valid. THF does really bring very little to the table.

Steal/Mug/Despoil/Hide/Flee are all useless on any endgame event.
Bully/SA/TA/AC are DD Abilities that are necessary to even perform decent WS numbers
Collab/Accomp are all but worthless.
Feint, while being the most useful party ability, is as you said infinitely less useful today.
Conspirator, same boat as feint, if acc is a problem your DD need to be replaced or you need Mad's/Hunters.

THF is just a disappointment to "Rogue" classes everywhere and SE is content with making it both obsolete and useless as systematically a possible. By removing the need for TH on all new content, and making it so THF's low HP is a heavier liability. The game at this state is designed against THF which is part of the overall problem.

One of the biggest issues that THF has always, and always will have, is that even THE #1 THF across all servers will still put out less damage if the mob turns when using Sneak Attack when bully is not on, or if the person in front of you moves when using Trick Attack.

Even taking enough THFs to full-time Bully doesn't help the TA issue.

Another is that with max haste and decent acc, you'll over-spill on TP if you wait for SA/TA timers before you WS every time.

Another Shameless Plug for Great Justice

Does Aurasteal even work on anything in SoA? >.>

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Originally Posted by Daemon

Does Aurasteal even work on anything in SoA? >.>

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No, it can't steal "Auras". /sigh