SMN adjustments....seriously?

I'm simply saying that in many of the events you listed in which a SMN is already brought for unique SMN moves (most especially VW, ADL, AV, WoE, and upcoming Legion), a good SMN should prove his or her utility with more than just the unique moves. SMN more than earns its spot in half or more of the events people do these days.

I really can't count WoE because of how dead it is, but that's just me. I recognize you do ADL runs, outside of him and perhaps the Arch Diabolos you wouldn't really bring Smn to dynamis (could just bring a mule if you're like markovchan). VW I'm really split on. PD isn't used and EA is only used while temps are down, but typically they're refreshed quickly from procs in a good group, so its usefulness goes down. 1 Smn is usually all that's taken, and just for procing. It can do fair damage, but is easily surpassed in support and damage by other jobs - pre nerf to Miser's Anyway, I can't say for after.

WoE isn't dead for good linkshells. With the update this week and the new spammability, it is certainly premature to consider it dead. Some of the gear is quite good, and other pieces are bought by rich JPs for niche purposes where the supply is so small that you can get away charging high prices. I agree SMN isn't that useful in non-Arch boss Dynamis play. Most VW shouts ask for one SMN, certainly the job is looked more favorably than other jobs with unique procs such as BST or PUP.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Assuming those SMN have BRD or COR.

Buffs aren't all PD/EA too, not sure how you play SMN. 6 minute Hastega and a potent ATT down, EVA down for fights like VW Beetle, and an extra Stun arent useless.

Anyway three of the six events you listed above give a role to SMN, and you can add Legion to that list so its 4/7. The job certainly needs improvements but it is certainly in no more dire a situation than PLD, THF, PUP etc.

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You have proposed utility beyond the once-every-two-hours-for-a-single-fight "role." Your definition has utility in 7/7, throughout the entire event. At a bare minimum, Neisan should have to defend why he isn't providing Haste every 5 minutes instead of being just the "proc lump."

Because Smn is the only job with haste/all the Smn does is proc/EA... oh wait no this isn't the case, it's pretty clear you didn't read anything again.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I really can't count WoE because of how dead it is, but that's just me.

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Have you looked in WoE over the weekend during JP prime time? With enough for 2 full fluxes on Phoenix server I'd be shocked to find that Quetzacotl can't even get enough people together (2-3 smn) to do a flux like #3 which hyas some very highly priced drops. (and they should cost even more if noone on your server does WoE)

I'll check next week, if they are doing it they're keeping most of the drops for themselves. Windbuffet Belt seems to drop fairly often, the others are fairly rare, and flux 15 either is not done, or the mittens drop as often as VW bodies.

Going by AH sales I would say Fluxes 12 and 13 are being cleared, but 14 and 15 are very rarely done.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Because Smn is the only job with haste/all the Smn does is proc/EA... oh wait no this isn't the case, it's pretty clear you didn't read anything again.

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That honestly just sounds like a lazy excuse no matter how you spin it. Just because others can shouldn't mean you don't Neisan!

I know Dallas' Reputation in here, But I rarely come across such a close minded group of people. I mean, Your guys entire argument against Dallas is probably based on the idea you hate him, cause your arguments are paper thin...

"I don't haste cause others do"
"I don't do XXX cause society tells me not too"

Its dumb. Just because Dallas reputation is not that great doesn't man his words are rooted in some truth. Say for instance, When I'm in Voidwatch on SMN, I use my Ascetics and Dusty wing whenever i get them, run in, and pop a Cataclysm in my full MAB Gear, I can do up to 1.3k or higher.

Compared to other DD, its pretty weak damn weak, But it contributes to killing the enemy quicker, and It gives me shit to do, I have a Fanatic's, Why shouldn't I beat the mobs ass? Even if My staff is doing 40-50 damage a hit, Its still killing the enemy quicker, and contributing to the over-all dispatching of the Enemy.

Nothing is written or said that you can't still gear swap to BP Delay or BP:Damage While meleeing, right? The only thing of consequence would be your staff. Still, With all the MP Healing items you get, Perpetuation cost is nothing to worry about, and as far as say, PET:MAB Staves go, Your melee DPS and WS Damage over the course of the 45 seconds you wait for BP to come back up would outweigh what, 12 MAB?

Just because the idea of Melee SMN is something shunned and frowned upon doesn't mean its not a reasonable course of Action. Look at it this way.

You're invited to VW To proc - You have 45 Seconds between BP's. What do you do in the mean time? Correct answer is twofold, Buff your team in any way you can, and dish out some damage in the mean time. You have Stalwarts for your Melee, Ascetics for your WS, and Fanatic's Drink to keep you alive.

The only mob I'd truly never melee on SMN in voidwatch is Botulus Rex, Even with a Fanatic's, fudge that guy.

I should note, the above doesn't apply to every event, Nor do i think chosing a SMN over xxx is a good idea. As was my argument when this whole SMN melee debacle first came up, If you're invited to an Event on SMN, and you can melee without putting yourself in Danger (AoE's, Especially silence), you should. You're not hurting anyone, and you're contributing to the dispatching of the Enemy in a meaningful way.

This game is built in this funny way where you can Melee, and Cure, and -na all at the same time, While still maintaining an Avatar. It doesn't work in every event, and obviously its situational, and it will never ever compare to a real DD's potential, but as I say, Its better than sitting on your ass.

The real reason everyone is so adamantly against SMN melee is simply because that stigma comes from an Era in FFXI's history basically equivalent to cave-man Logic. "me no like. you no melee.", back then, TP Moves could often spell danger for groups, So SMN melee was needless extra TP, that and SMNs would die easily, or get silenced, etc, need to be out of range, They had very little acc/atk/haste gear, etc.

Today, You should be carrying Echoes, In Voidwach you get access to Fanatic's, Stalwarts to buff your low Rating, etc.

*sigh* I'm rambling here, but to clear this up, What I'm saying is, I don't condone the idea of MELEE ALL THE THINGS on SMN, but "Smn melee" stigma is from the stupid ages, Today, especially in voidwatch where you can obtain Physical Immunity on a regular basis, The idea of SMN sitting in the background acting as a third-rate Gimp healer is an outdated idea.

SMN Is a broken flawed job, but you make the best of what you got.

And for the record, I'd like to say - I didn't really read all of the debate, I just saw Dallas and assumed it was about SMN melee and maintainning MP or something.

Edit: I Should mention, SMN Can obtain 25% Haste:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/206905
So with Garuda and /SAM, they're one of the few jobs than can get a solo 50% Haste. Which is a fun thought for when you solo :)

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

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Then i can more than agree.

SMN needs a huge overhaul, SE designed the job from a lv 75 2005 stand point, In todays FFXI, its such a horrible job that its almost in itself a fundamentally useless job. The only time its used anymore is in WoE where the mass amount of Disposable allies (Avatars) is actually useful.

If they reworked Avatar Damage like they did with Jug Pets, It would fix SMN. Avatar Melee as is is something akin to a Damage of a Dagger and Delay of an Axe, Its abysmal. It needs to be completely redesigned.

That, and removing the BP Delay Timer would be nice. :)