Nyzul Isle Assault Bug

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

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Complete BS. SE knows exactly how *hard* this is. They programmed in the randomness, they know that floor 100 isn't going to be reached but once out of thirty to forty runs (completely legitimately). They introduced all the "screw yous" that ruin your runs, things like WS restriction is just the blatant ones. You have the ridiculously large floor layouts that one 1 random lamp or enemy a good 30~60+ second run from the start, all sorts of NMs to screw with you and then the infamous lamps. Not only must a "vanilla" group make it to 100, they must do so with a low number of jumps and minimal number of "screw yous" from SE.

SE knows this, their not going to make it any easier. They don't want people 15/15, they want you 1/5 after four months. They want you still doing Nyzule Isle for gear in 2014. Just like Voidwatch, just like Legion.

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

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They know exactly how many people are cheating. Don't let their feigned innocence fool you. They didn't budget time to apply any major fixes to Nyzul Isle after it was released, and now it needs to be fixed but they have no time to do it, so they are putting a band-aid on the bullet wound. It's apathy towards paying customers and to the benefit of people who cheat.We shouldn't even be concerned about whether people cheat. We should be concerned about why the content was designed in such a poor state that people who cheat get to shit all over our experience. People will always cheat no matter how much they threaten to ban, or screw with the game to stop them. The only options are too either make a game where people can cheat, but it doesn't affect other peoples quality of game, or (the SE way) make the game however the hell you want, and then bullshit the public as if you care. Something tells me that forum reps get paid far less than game designers, so guess which option they chose. They chose "Let's send some forum reps out to make PR Posts.".

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Originally Posted by kyomi

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

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Think by "fluffing the data" Kyomi means that they are making it where SE can't reliably establish how difficult it is for even well geared players without doing the following:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

I've suggested it in other thread but i'll reiterate my suggestion :

@ SE devs :

1) record all F100 nyzul wins since release.
2) out of those wins, check how many of those runs had a lamp order floor.
3) examine the % of those runs where people went 1/1 on guessing lamps.

If you don't find 99%+ or more plese let me now.

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I know that NIU isn't impossible as I know a couple groups who complete it under legit means, but they also run into many of the issues that make it extremely difficult to complete. This is the core data that needs to be recorded along with all the rest without the issue of altered/fluff data making it seem perfectly viable on an acceptable scale to complete NIU. This is how using the dat swaps becomes harmful and creates "victims" because it relays the message that the difficulty is sufficiently acceptable and requires no further changes.

With dat swaps you have:
Possible pathos restrictions (one of largest time killers based on pathos and floor you get it on)
Kill all floors (2nd largest time killer depending on number of mobs/NM type)
Kill spec family. (tied 3rd with don't be discovered by gears)
Kill Spec enemy. (negligible, you kill one mob)
Kill boss. (not a major time killer as most can be disposed of in less than a 1-3 minutes of being engaged)
Always known lamp order floors (removes a percentage of the difficulty by a fair amount since this is one of two largest time killers in the entire event; one floor can literally destroy 5min or more)
Lamp register. (negligible, you all click one lamp)
Don't be discovered by gears. (3rd due to possible penalty of time loss if aggro or locking of WS/Spells)
Don't destroy gears. (negligible, not hard to not kill)
Random floor skip of 3~12 (Primary time killer if unlucky)

So, when you fluff data on one of the biggest time killers in the entire event you relay the message to developers that there is no further need to adjust the difficulty because X amount of players are already 5/15~15/15 in only the space of a month or two. Look how long it took for SE to admit there was a significant issue with distribution of VW drops because people with the items were getting them multiple times and could not give them to other players. Granted this is still an issue with a handful of the desired items, but no longer with some of the most desired items (HQ weapons, Most bodies), not to mention adjustments to AOE damage taken to players without primary hate, etc. VW is much easier and distribution of the items has increased due to data collection and feedback via the community, but it took time to do so.

Applying it to NIU becomes problematic when you can't prove via data that the successful progress made by the community is extremely low when cheaters fluff the data by showing that it isn't extremely low. Every run they are getting 1 promised drop of choice, and up to 3 additional random by completing floor 100 at greater than 50% of the runs cause they spend less than 1 minute on lamp floors. If they get multiple lamp floors this can make the run fairly smooth since they can always get the right order every time. What this says to developers is that they made it just right and no further tweaks are necessary because groups who do the event regularly are making acceptable progress when that isn't the case when played legitimately.

@Frank
When you look at the gear and the difficulty to achieve it while comparing it to the low drop rate of even VW gear/abj which is up on the same level of desirability it does make sense that it isn't easy to accomplish. However, allowing cheaters free reign to do as they please because it seemingly "hurts no one else" is no better a fix than stopping/reprimanding the cheaters after being caught. The cheaters will then do 1 of 2 things, stop doing the event because they got what they want, or turn around and turn it into a cash cow because other players can't cheat, or don't have the resource/time to do the event. Already see groups shout for it on my server and charge upwards of 10-15mil per piece of gear. So no, I don't see any viable reason to just "leave the cheaters to cheat" because it has too many noticeable affects on the community when one takes the time to look beyond themselves to see it.

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Originally Posted by Ragmar

Right people download the non SE approved version to not use these things. Fact is you simply want to think your cheating is ok but that others cheating with other programs isn't because you don't use those other programs. It's normal mind you but flawed none the less. Also you don't "need" to use windower at all as myself and many other PS2 players have done without it for years. I do play on PC as well.

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Sorry to disappoint you but I removed every single plugging from Windower the day I downloaded it because I found many parts of it annoying. Only thing I wanted, 1 macro to do my swaps for RDM because I refused to keep hitting 3 every single time I wanted to do something. If you think the main reason people use Windower is because they are all evil cheating assholes, look again. Alot of players who use it use it only because they want better macros yet time and time again SE says no, so we make due with what we can.

Also if i'm not mistaken, Windower itself is said to run at a better standard FPS than the SE Windower, Which can cause a bit of lag easier.

I just vaguely remember hearing about it.

Edit: P.S - Its really not worth wasting your breath arguing with people who demonize windower, People who think Windower is the source of the Devils magic are usually Starcade-level, It'll be like arguing with an impenetrable brick wall of hate.

That is primarily due to the official windower being coded to constantly prioritize the process to "low" even if you go into task manager and change it to normal or high. Unofficial windower on the other hand doesn't do this. It defaults as a normal priority and will not change that even if you go in and change it to low or high. So on official windower when the most menial task starts up with a higher process priority it'll divert resources to that process over windower causing client lag.

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?

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It really wouldn't. By removing it you stand another chance of all enemies, leaders, family etc... It does however remove a floor that should NOT be in something restricted to 30 minutes with so many random rules in play.

Removing the lamp order floor evens it up among all players. The only other cheat (flee hacks) SE could easily detect if they wanted.

make it 40-45m per run? ive failed so many times and only needed literally between 30s and a few more minutes. one time i did get retardedly lucky floor jumps and was on F87 with 10m left.