To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

Nah, even then Eyeballed has the right to voice a concern over changes. Just like we have the right to disagree with that opinion.

Eyeballed, do you think that voice that said that the game was too slow was just one? For the developer to take it into account, I would assume it was most of his paycheck complaining.

There are becoming a good handful of you "old-schoolers" out there yes. But not enough to flip the coin back onto your side. And when people tell you to go and play another game, it's really them trying to look out for your happiness.

The game no longer makes you happy...so why still give your hard-earned money to it? Even if it was suddenly reverted back, everything will not be as it was back in 2006. The world doesn't work that way, I wish some things could revert back.

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Originally Posted by Komori

Eyeballed, do you think that voice that said that the game was too slow was just one? For the developer to take it into account, I would assume it was most of his paycheck complaining.

There are becoming a good handful of you "old-schoolers" out there yes. But not enough to flip the coin back onto your side. And when people tell you to go and play another game, it's really them trying to look out for your happiness.

The game no longer makes you happy...so why still give your hard-earned money to it? Even if it was suddenly reverted back, everything will not be as it was back in 2006. The world doesn't work that way, I wish some things could revert back.

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I appreciate your honesty. And, trust that I'm hardly the only one who wants it back. Either side may or may not be the majority, but who's really to say? There's certainly not enough on my side where this game's concerned, but for the game (FFXIV) I graduated to, there seems to be plenty. See here.

Perhaps on that game, but that's for another game entirely. They're yelling for FFXIV to go that route, not FFXI. FFXI has been through it and changed; they would lose what money they have slingshotting backwards.

But with FFXIV being a totally new game still somewhat in development, they could perhaps work something out over there. But the "hardcores" who want things slow and steady have always been minority. They're typically people with nothing else in life better to do. And so of course they want a game that can't be won over in the matter of a few months and then they're bored again.

Why are people still posting in this thread?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

As far as "NIN spells are unnecessary", I can tell you that's not true, either. I did use shuriken from Lv19 onward, all of my debuffs and the full wheel on my way up. Doing so, I could tank without a THF in party. Yeah, it was expensive, but if you can't afford to do it right then don't do it.

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Shurikens and the Wheel (except for a brief stint between 40 and 60, after you get Ni nukes and before you get Jin) are a DPS loss unless your 60-75 melee gear is really lacking. The fact you wasted your parties' time by casting Ichi nukes to try to stay capped is their business, but you still wasted it. Kura/Hojo/Jubaku are fine, but they won't cap you alone.

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You seriously doubt? Speaks volumes to me.

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Yes, I seriously doubt. Maybe he would have run into a prissy bitch or two along the way doing classic XP, but what are they going to do? Kick the only tank within five levels?

Honestly, how can a person in his or her 30s want to go back to the multi-hour commitment a non-endgame-event FFXI session used to entail? I could never see myself doing that again after acquiring a real job and a wife.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Shurikens and the Wheel (except for a brief stint between 40 and 60, after you get Ni nukes and before you get Jin) are a DPS loss unless your 60-75 melee gear is really lacking. The fact you wasted your parties' time by casting Ichi nukes to try to stay capped is their business, but you still wasted it. Kura/Hojo/Jubaku are fine, but they won't cap you alone.

Honestly, how can a person in his or her 30s want to go back to the multi-hour commitment a non-endgame-event FFXI session used to entail? I could never see myself doing that again after acquiring a real job and a wife.

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20 levels is not a "brief stint". It might be by today's pace, but certainly not back then. My wife and I play this game together, and she is far from what anyone would define as 'hardcore' and has voiced opinions on the subject that are not dissimilar from my own.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I'm not saying your dilemma is imaginary, but I've never encountered this problem of "not being able to play with my friends". I assume you're talking about your real life friends?

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Well real life friends as well as in game friends. People in general starting fresh on the game who know no one could be left out because they are at the start of the game. In this game in particular it used to be hard to get much of anywhere quickly due to how long it took. So a new player could be stuck for months doing something like soloing, even though the original reason for getting on the game was to play with other people, be it friends or strangers. The game has changed that so that now you can catch up relatively fast rather than the old way of taking months.

But as a real life example I have a friend Miller I have wanted to get on this game for some time. I have actually left my SMN at lv1 for this exact reason, I wish to have something to level with him and show him around if he does get the game. My problem used to be that if he ever actually got on the game that he would be so far behind me that it would become boring for us both and he would quit. Now I don't have this problem, only now you can not find the game on 360 which his only option. The point being that before him getting on the game was a problem because he would be far behind me, and now he can be up in the 90s in a matter of a week or 2 with me to show him around.

It's pretty brief. That's what, Crawler's Nest, Beetles in Altepa, Garlaige Basement, then ToAU?

I mean, I hate to break it to you, but partying was essentially dead long before Abyssea or even Fields of Valor were introduced. Once Campaign provided a way for high-level players to get some extremely modest XP on their own, people were willing to accept anywhere from a quarter to a third of the XP they knew they'd get in a party to avoid dealing with the sort of attitude that moves you to post in this thread. They were happy to solo before that, thanks to Signet defense/eva in 2005-6.

I don't think your opinion is totally without merit but i have been here every step of the way, man, and I'm telling you virtually nobody wants it (though some people think they do, having forgotten 2008).

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Originally Posted by scaevola

It's pretty brief. That's what, Crawler's Nest, Beetles in Altepa, Garlaige Basement, then ToAU?

I mean, I hate to break it to you, but partying was essentially dead long before Abyssea or even Fields of Valor were introduced. Once Campaign provided a way for high-level players to get some extremely modest XP on their own, people were willing to accept anywhere from a quarter to a third of the XP they knew they'd get in a party to avoid dealing with the sort of attitude that moves you to post in this thread. The were happy to solo before that, thanks to Signet defense/eva in 2005-6.

I don't think your opinion is totally without merit but i have been here every step of the way, man, and I'm telling you virtually nobody wants it (though some people think they do, having forgotten 2008).

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Who are you? And who elected you spokesman for the entire FFXI community, past and present? And even then, you go even farther by suggesting you know what other people want despite their opposing views. Really?

The fact that people actually do fall all over themselves to book-burn and Abyssea their way to 99; in other words, the very existence of this thread is what stakes mine out as the majority position. What would it take to convince you you're in the minority?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Shurikens and the Wheel (except for a brief stint between 40 and 60, after you get Ni nukes and before you get Jin) are a DPS loss unless your 60-75 melee gear is really lacking. The fact you wasted your parties' time by casting Ichi nukes to try to stay capped is their business, but you still wasted it. Kura/Hojo/Jubaku are fine, but they won't cap you alone.

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As well, my 200+ criticals on Colibri with Manji Shuriken would like to have a word with you. But then again, I highly doubt you ever used them, so how would you know?

Bird parties, no THF, and that Penta Thrust SAM isn't taking hate off me. Not before it dies out-right.

Mommy what's seigan

And good for you, wasting several million gil on using shuriken in XP parties. I'm sure way more than like a tenth of the people you party with even remember anybody did so, much less the name of the guy who did.

Wait, you're complaining about a terrible nin when you were a terrible nin?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Mommy what's seigan

And good for you, wasting several million gil on using shuriken in XP parties. I'm sure way more than like a tenth of the people you party with even remember anybody did so, much less the name of the guy who did.

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Who cares about who remembered? I did it because it was FUN. And because it was fun, the gil was hardly wasted. All 20-30k per stack. Woo.

You know what else is fun?

Doing stuff other than pulling the same mob for hours and hours.

I really would like to know what I could do to convince you you're in the minority, other than what everyone else in the thread has been doing, which has, for whatever reason, escaped you.

(ps you should care who remembered, inasmuch as you're offering your experience as an example of how using shuriken or whatever in an XP party actually matters)

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Originally Posted by scaevola

The fact that people actually do fall all over themselves to book-burn and Abyssea their way to 99; in other words, the very existence of this thread is what stakes mine out as the majority position. What would it take to convince you you're in the minority?

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You do understand the concept that the wholly modest number of people that remain playing this game are naturally, and wholly, going to be the remainder that "fall over themselves" to burn their levels, right? You know what the word 'skewed' means?

Simple, stop fighting. If you cant win a battle, stop fighting. I assumed a diplomatic position, trying to find out info and convince rather than insult and attack. Which no offense to anyone but that is admittedly what it looks like everyone started doing. Thats why I brought up the point about people saying stupid things when they have no idea what they were talking about, like with the UO convo.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

You do understand the concept that the wholly modest number of people that remain playing this game are naturally, and wholly, going to be the remainder that "fall over themselves" to burn their levels, right?

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Why? Anybody who remembers the old way of leveling and liked it enough to do it a lot is done leveling, so this whole debate doesn't affect them.

Gosh, it's almost like people are sticking around to do all the stuff that isn't leveling!!

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Simple, stop fighting. If you cant win a battle, stop fighting. I assumed a diplomatic position, trying to find out info and convince rather than insult and attack. Which no offense to anyone but that is admittedly what it looks like everyone started doing. Thats why I brought up the point about people saying stupid things when they have no idea what they were talking about, like with the UO convo.

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Like I said long ago, and have demonstrated, I'm here to discuss and debate. I'm with you on this, at least.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

As well, my 200+ criticals on Colibri with Manji Shuriken would like to have a word with you. But then again, I highly doubt you ever used them, so how would you know?

Bird parties, no THF, and that Penta Thrust SAM isn't taking hate off me. Not before it dies out-right.

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How many times could you have swung your katanas in the time it took you to hit your ranged attack macro to toss that shuriken and how much dmg would you have done per swing? How much TP would you have gained from those swings versus what you gained from the shuirken? How many times could you WS just meleeing versus throwing shurikens? How much overall dps is your happy fun time with shurikens costing you and your party?

I could sit here and regale you with stories of the times I put up nice numbers doing something out of the ordinary, but it doesn't mean that what I was doing was ideal or efficient. It's great that you got nice dmg out of your shuriken, but there's very good reasons why that's not the normal way of damage dealing for NINs.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

How many times could you have swung your katanas in the time it took you to hit your ranged attack macro to toss that shuriken and how much dmg would you have done per swing? How much TP would you have gained from those swings versus what you gained from the shuirken? How many times could you WS just meleeing versus throwing shurikens? How much overall dps is your happy fun time with shurikens costing you and your party?

I could sit here and regale you with stories of the times I put up nice numbers doing something out of the ordinary, but it doesn't mean that what I was doing was ideal or efficient. It's great that you got nice dmg out of your shuriken, but there's very good reasons why that's not the normal way of damage dealing for NINs.

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Did you use shuriken on Colibri? Was your throwing skill capped? Do you think I threw more than 1-2 per fight (first being as it was coming in, just before voke). Do you really know what you're talking about, or just attacking something because it's not the route you or any of your friends took? Regarding your first question, did I miss something or did Ninja lose auto-attack somewhere? The ranged in question has a 1.92 delay. See here.

Somebody get Wish in here, quickly.

That Penta Thrust SAM wasn't pulling hate off of you because he was holding back. If he wasn't then he was doing something very, very wrong. If he was holding back it's because you weren't holding up your end of the bargain. He was probably riding Seigan instead of Hasso, slowing down attack rounds and lowering DPS and WS frequency. The accuracy that comes with Hasso may have made a difference too depending on level and camp. If the SAM isn't going as hard as he can that is slowing down the already painful process of leveling.

The math has been done, if you take the time you can look it up. Throwing shuriken on NIN is a loss in DPS, which means less hate, which means it's making it harder for you to tank.

EDIT Oh the fail is strong now. That's a 192 delay not 1.92. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's 3+ seconds delay (plus animation? not 100% sure on that). In that time you are definitely getting in at least one attack round if not 2. According to that link they can be bought from an NPC for 7-10k gil, or made as a medium-high level crafting recipe (above the old soft cap of 60), and involve a HQ result from making Steel Ingots. If these were ever even made they went for a pretty penny. On top of the already (moderately) expensive cost of ninja tools (especially if you were using those as often as you claim) that's a lot of gil down the drain to make you do LESS damage overall.

I just read lack of knowledge of game mechanics and blaming burn parties on gimps that would have existed anyway without burn pts being around.

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

That Penta Thrust SAM wasn't pulling hate off of you because he was holding back. If he wasn't then he was doing something very, very wrong. If he was holding back it's because you weren't holding up your end of the bargain. He was probably riding Seigan instead of Hasso, slowing down attack rounds and lowering DPS and WS frequency. The accuracy that comes with Hasso may have made a difference too depending on level and camp. If the SAM isn't going as hard as he can that is slowing down the already painful process of leveling.

The math has been done, if you take the time you can look it up. Throwing shuriken on NIN is a loss in DPS, which means less hate, which means it's making it harder for you to tank.

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Where is this math? You brought it up. I don't have any need to.

Yours was the original claim.The burden is on you.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Where is this math? You brought it up. I don't have any need to.

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I did find this, however: Related Link.

Which speaks quite the contrary to everything you're saying. Then again, I have first-hand experience in its capabilities, so I'm not sure why I'm even discussing it. It's not up for debate.

And this: Related Link.

And this: Related Link.

Seems like they do exactly what they were intended to do, with the biggest down-side being cost. Sorry, try again.

All I read was lack of knowledge on how dual wield and haste works.

Like really 05 threads, seriously? You have to be trolling.

Yeah, because linking to threads from 2004 when people were still largely ignorant of the game mechanics is a sure-fire way to prove your point.

brb, digging up one of Wish's posts on shurikens and why they're awful.

edit: blarg, I can't find the thread where he lays out the math in excruciating detail.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

All I read was lack of knowledge on how dual wield and haste works.

Like really 05 threads, seriously? You have to be trolling.

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Got something better? Something I obviously don't know? If it's such common knowledge, put up or shut up, yeah?

Despite that, my Ninja and its capabilities are in question, correct? I leveled that job to 75 in 2006. Now what?

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Yeah, because linking to threads from 2004 when people were still largely ignorant of the game mechanics is a sure-fire way to prove your point.

brb, digging up one of Wish's posts on shurikens and why they're awful.

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Explain to me what shuriken have to do with the thread topic, again? Please?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ighlight=haste

Read this, and try being less ignorant

post on shuriken: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ll=1#post74737

Also lol'ing at leveling a job in 06 when you don't know how game mechanics others have been over for years work.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ighlight=haste

Read this, and try being less ignorant

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Are you serious? You're implying that a Lv40~65 Ninja can even start thinking about a haste build? Hahaha...

I saw no math in those threads, and to reiterate the point made above the threads are from '04, '05, and '08. Also on a forum that personally I've never heard of. Were they at one time a source of good information? Can someone else clue me in on that?

EDIT A full 26% Haste? No of course not but there is haste gear at that level, I had it when I leveled NIN through those levels a few years ago. When you add in magic Haste it starts to make a significant difference.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ighlight=haste

Read this, and try being less ignorant

post on shuriken: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ll=1#post74737

Also lol'ing at leveling a job in 06 when you don't know how game mechanics others have been over for years work.

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Yeah, good try, but sorry it's invalid when you're talking about 2006 mid-game play versus Lv80? cap gears.

Anyway, remind me again why we're talking about my Ninja and how it's related to this topic?

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

I saw no math in those threads, and to reiterate the point made above the threads are from '04, '05, and '08. Also on a forum that personally I've never heard of. Were they at one time a source of good information? Can someone else clue me in on that?

EDIT A full 26% Haste? No of course not but there is haste gear at that level, I had it when I leveled NIN through those levels a few years ago. When you add in magic Haste it starts to make a significant difference.

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And perhaps the biggest point of all is me stating that I happened to level my Ninja to 75 back in that time period. One that's been blatantly neglected simply to prove a fallacious point. A point that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Really gotta stop responding to you guys.

>Implying leveling a job in 06 means you have any clue about what you were doing, when you obviously do not, bringing in threads from 04 and 05 when people didn't understand game mechanics to support your flawed argument

> Complaining about a burned Nin and nearly failing a UO run (lol) and that it's level leeching at fault, when gimps/unskilled players existed before abyssea or burns themselves were around, they just levelled slower

>Shuriken were gimp for damage dealing for Nin from at least 55+, your nin was gimp, and you didn't know what you were doing.