Ok...let me level with you here SE...

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I don't think a kill trial was the answer either but telling us they would basically have to multiply the number required by 18 for the sake of balance is such a load of bullshit.

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You mean BSTx18 all upgrading Guttlers can kill ADL? Oh wait, you mean you need healers and Perfect Defense and actual DD's?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

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I may be a little confused here...

Is this sarcasm?

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

"The imaginary balance god will smite us if we accidentally make the trial easier in the process of making it unstupid."

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He smites everyone all the time forever, in order to keep it balanced. For every really inspired spell or ability added, there's another that isn't even worth the 2+ seconds of melee-time you lose for it. For every tree that grows in Brooklyn, a tree falls and crushes someone to death in Arkansas. For every awesome weapon added, one more person undertakes the Magian Trial for a horrible thing that Occasionally Attacks 2-4 Times with horrible distribution and horrible delay. For every rare animal that is shown compassion and saved, one gorilla is captured and shaved and put to work in a brothel.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I don't think a kill trial was the answer either but telling us they would basically have to multiply the number required by 18 for the sake of balance is such a load of bullshit. They seem to be completely ignoring the time restriction, the difficulty of the mob, the trade off people make for helping with a run, and the massive gap between number of relics in circulation and the number of mythics/95 emps.

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This. This to infinity.

They didn't take the incentives for killing the monster into account, either. Archie the Dynamis Lord drops stuff that was never that good and he drops that stuff at a disappointing rate, Pandemonium Warden drops stuff that while awesome at 75 is more pointless than performing breast augmentation on a young boy's corpse, and the Voidwatch things drop...Oh, hey, stuff that actually makes people want to fight them; trial or no trial.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

Majority you say in there. Majority = 85% or higher, not .0000000000000001% that stage 2 will get. Follow your own words SE. Change it, or lose your player base.

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as of right now, they're -3 if you count my mules.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

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Do you realize what the team is saying, those that already killed him for the items, they can be working on Stage 2. Don't sit there and tell us that SE programmers are that lame.

an aspect the devs should look into: compare what the trial item is AND what else the target trial NM drops... for a low level example lets take idk Sobek it drops items that ppl do need yes but there is no way in hell you'd get a single party willing to get you all 50 when they would need NOTHING from it after they get the +2 armor upgrades they need

Oh and if they want to worry about balancing shit, they're gonna have a tough time balancing their checkbook if they keep this shit up. Let them figure out what realistic balancing is, then get back to me, i'll be on star wars.

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Originally Posted by Camate

... and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

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Is the number of players who have already started collecting really that high? Is a refund really that hard to issue? Do people seriously get mad when something is altered to be better?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

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WTF? No! We both know how this game has been played for the last X number of years. When you have to turn shit in for uber weapons you have to turn A LOT of shit in. Nobody in that 18 person fight wants to be there more than once or twice unless there are other [significant] rewards to be had. Just lower the fucking requirements already.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

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Why would there be a huge gap? What the hell? Do the devs not see these 40+ page threads about how people are tired of putting in more work for less results?

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Is the number of players who have already started collecting really that high? Is a refund really that hard to issue? Do people seriously get mad when something is altered to be better?

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Theres no need to refund...that would be admitting that no ones going to upgrade a stage 2 99 relic

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

Your changes should be one of the following.

1 item needed

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But then they'd just make that one item have a drop rate so astronomically low that it'd make a Voidwatch Chest seem like a Test Server Moogle.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

Camate while I understand where their logic is coming come expecting 17 other people to get you an item WITHOUT ANY BENEFIT to them is not going to work unless it drops for mutiple NMs. If they expect relic holders to find 17 people to be their slaves for almost a month on ADL it won't be completed for most people. This doesn't even get into the ADL numbers for stage 2. I don't mind working and having somewhat a challenge for upgrading my relic but considering ADL and his pop requirements and killing strategy I doubt I see myself getting that kind of help.

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Solution: Dev team will give you a signal pearl at start of the trial and a GM will kill it for you once you use it!

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Why would there be a huge gap? What the hell? Do the devs not see these 40+ page threads about how people are tired of putting in more work for less results?

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That's their answer to everything. SE knows that it'll take people a long time to finish this trial. They WANT it. Otherwise they wouldn't be spewing about having a kill trial being multiplied over drops. Nevermind that getting just 20 kills would take how long for the average relic holder? I don't even want to think about it. So what would they chose? 50 kills? 100 kills? Whatever they think will match the amount of effort to get stage 1 with ADL drops. Are they thinking 1 out of 18 kills? 18 people alliance, 1 per drop every kill? So like, hold on let me do the math on that... oh ok, 360 kills. Yeah.

Lolololololololololololololol. I'm so past the rage stage and am into the laughter stage. This trolling is pretty epic. Hit it, Rick!

Aww don't worry my fellow Japanese brothers and sisters, I didn't forget about you! Hit it, Japanese Rick!

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

He smites everyone all the time forever, in order to keep it balanced. For every really inspired spell or ability added, there's another that isn't even worth the 2+ seconds of melee-time you lose for it. For every tree that grows in Brooklyn, a tree falls and crushes someone to death in Arkansas. For every awesome weapon added, one more person undertakes the Magian Trial for a horrible thing that Occasionally Attacks 2-4 Times with horrible distribution and horrible delay. For every rare animal that is shown compassion and saved, one gorilla is captured and shaved and put to work in a brothel.



This. This to infinity.

They didn't take the incentives for killing the monster into account, either. Archie the Dynamis Lord drops stuff that was never that good and he drops that stuff at a disappointing rate, Pandemonium Warden drops stuff that while awesome at 75 is more pointless than performing breast augmentation on a young boy's corpse, and the Voidwatch things drop...Oh, hey, stuff that actually makes people want to fight them; trial or no trial.

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you're picture is about as creepy as the cover of "The Shining". Take it as a compliment. I'm proud of you.

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Originally Posted by Vold

That's their answer to everything. SE knows that it'll take people a long time to finish this trial. They WANT it. Otherwise they wouldn't be spewing about having a kill trial being multiplied over drops. Nevermind that getting just 20 kills would take how long for the average relic holder? I don't even want to think about it. So what would they chose? 50 kills? 100 kills? Whatever they think will match the amount of effort to get stage 1 with ADL drops. Are they thinking 1 out of 18 kills? 18 people alliance, 1 per drop every kill? So like, hold on let me do the math on that... oh ok, 360 kills. Yeah.

Lolololololololololololololol. I'm so past the rage stage and am into the laughter stage. This trolling is pretty epic. Hit it, Rick!

Aww don't worry my fellow Japanese brothers and sisters, I didn't forget about you! Hit it, Japanese Rick!

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i cant believe i fell for that rick roll....

Thread over here as well.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...R-M-E-upgrades

I'd rather have 500 PW kills, then 300 PW x1 drop.

Edit: Actually, keep the stage 1 trial as item drops, make the stage 2 trial mob kills. This way everyone can make progress. And people who have completed stage 1, will help others complete stage 1.

SE, listen to your player base in this.

Experiences/trials that cause people to work together towards a common goal are a benefit to the community. It builds relationships and causes trust. If I know 10 other people that need to kill PW, I can work with them and co-ordinate on building pops and kills.

But when we each need a drop, and that drop is uncommon, we become competitors. We don't work together, we don't build relationships. Relationships are the core of this game. Poll your players, most of them play because of the people they play with, not because they just HAVE to kill Akvan 73 more times.

I play because of my linkshell and the people that I know in real life that I met through the game.

In fact, doesn't SE assert that they don't want players competing over drops and selling them? Isn't this the whole logic behind the horrible, horrible drop system that is voidwatch?

Let us work together, benefiting ourselves, but others at the same time.

The only way this will end well is if they make the trial requirement 1 item or add Umbral marrow to a lot of different dynamis NMs. That or the dev team can get their heads out of their asses and listen to the player base. Killshots will not upset any balance, I bet a total of 10 umbral marrow have been collected intentionally across all servers.

Forget it... I'm done.

I dont think the developers even care, You get our Hopes up, Stating that ALMOST EVERYONE with a relic will be able to complete stage 1 of the 99 trial, but then you throw this in our face. It is NOT possible to do this trial for EVERY relic owner, hell not even MOST relic owners in a timely manner, you completely lied to our faces, even if the number turns out to be 1, ADL is terrible, and people will still be screwed because people are not going to fight ADL 50 times for everyone relic weapon.

freaking wow... i'm just shocked at this point... well as an idea how about all peeps make thier own thread about R/M trial requirements, if 1 post with a shit ton of likes doesnt fly just barrage them with posts........ FFS whats wrong with these retards.........

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

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My name is Hitler, and I approve of this message.

Camate how about you pass this on to the devs, they are not just craping on FFXI they are effectively killing any chance they might have had at getting current FFXI players over to 14. On top of 14 already doing the low drop rate crap they pullig here the critics will point to the mess they allowed to happen to FFXI and give people even more reason to stay away from your MMO titles. There is a limit to what even fanboys can put up with.

On another note which smaller studio do you think SE will have to eat next to get titles they haven't already put under.

Honestly all this shows is the dev's complete lack of respect for its customers, especially the long term ones who have been playing for a long time and have had their relics before the dynamis update. It's obvious what the community wants, but they'd rather be stubborn about it.

Stage 2 aside, if concerns of people collecting marrow is wasted, then simply allow them to trade them in on the Stage 1 phase for X amount of kill credit, maybe 3-4 per. If the requirement is then 20 kills, it would take 5 or 7 marrows. Post-patch, people will then be more likely to be doing the fights themselves with others. Do 18 fights with everyone needing kill credit and they can all get 1 marrow to trade to complete without needing to do the last 2. Sure, people are unlikely to be doing more than a couple ADLs per Xarc, but for those operating in a linkshell, it's more likely everyone participating won't have a relic. Thus, the choice can be made to give the marrows to those who do so they can finish more quickly, or give them to someone who's not quite on that phase yet the ability to play catch up.

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

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Um... yes? They say that as if that was news to anyone, when it was, in fact, the entire point we've been trying to make. We want the number of finished trials to rise significantly, because right now it's absurdly low. Hence we suggested killshots. Alternatively, we suggested to lower the required amount of items, again, to reduce the retardly low number of people who'd ever finish this. Why else would we be complaining? Please tell the development team that the number of finished trials going up isn't an overlooked side-effect of a new method we'd prefer for some other mysterious reason, but the entire point of this exercise. It's not bad that this number is going up. It's good and we want it, that's why we suggest it. It's bad that the number is currently so low. Yes, bad. Very bad. They've been a fucking naughty development team and they shouldn't be surprised if everyone wants to spank them now. And not in the good way.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

I'm glad the idea of moving to killshots has been shot down. All you have to do is look at the 95 cap fight to see why: anyone stuck at 95 now is pretty much stuck, and thats for one quick fight.

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As opposed to one guy who'll need the 20 marrows after everyone else is done? Even if some compromises in job selection have to be made, as long as the number is the same, killshots will average a lot better than item collection, invariably.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

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Is this sarcasm? I really can't tell.

I am done bitching. This is fucking pointless.
I am glad I will never start playing FFXIV and will stay away from SE products in the futur generaly.

I can understand not wanting to play MMO's by SE, but really going to stop playing ANY game SE makes?

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Originally Posted by Damane

I am done bitching. This is fucking pointless.
I am glad I will never start playing FFXIV and will stay away from SE products in the futur generaly.

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I kinda agree. The past week not playing has been pretty awesome so I'm not sure why I'm still arguing to get them to change it. Maybe I just miss my FFXI friends ;_;

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Originally Posted by Kimble

I can understand not wanting to play MMO's by SE, but really going to stop playing ANY game SE makes?

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I stoped buying the Final Fantasy games after VIII alllready, not missing them kind of. Gave FFXIII a try and found it utter bullshit. And everything else from them has gone to garbage too, so yeah I dont need SE products when there is stuff like mass effect, skyrim etc. I will keep on playing FFXI, but my motivation kind of slipped away with no hope that this trial would ever change. Lets see how long that keeps me going.
Everytime I think now of a SE game, I have this bitter stomach feeling, because of those stupid things they did in FFXI.

Waiting on Guild Wars 2.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Hey! Remember when that other team at SE decided not to listen to their players when they said FF14 was turning out to be garbage? You're doing the same again SE! Learn from your past mistakes and don't implement these shit trials. NO ONE likes them.

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Exactly my thoughts as I was reading the replies to this utterly depressing information from Camate.

It's also depressing to see how Yoshi and the 'new' XIV team are bending over backwards to try to listen and accommodate players' suggestions and criticisms as they [SE] work on XIV 2.0, while the XI team after a period a year or so back of apparently learning from the years of completely ignoring the XI playerbase and making many changes to XI to make it more 'user friendly' (and reaping much praise for their changed attitude), have now sunk back into their former deaf-to-the-players state.

I'm not an end-gamer, I don't have a relic and never will, but their back-to-group-or-die design also has an impact on those of us who play solo or in small (read 'usually less than full') groups: witness the 95 Limit Break as another example.

I really wonder why people hate XIII so much. I thought it was a pretty fun game.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

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You do realize that you pretty much need Perfect Defense in order to kill him, right? Since that's a 2 hour ability, you can't use it more than once during a single dynamis run. Unless you brought spare summoners (lol), you can't do more than 1 ADL per day.

SE already lost me and my $60 per month because of this and other "balance" issues, my accounts were cancelled a few days ago. I wonder when my forum access will be cut off...

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

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Are you serious?? Worst case scenario that'll cost a relic owner 340 million gil - how can you, or anyone else think that's reasonable in any way, shape or form??? I really, truly hope you're being sarcastic - or could it possibly be the fact that you don't own a relic and maybe noone in your ls owns one either? "It doesn't affect me personally so it's ok" - right?


As for Camate's post - first of all, Camate you've said that you do indeed play this game, I wonder what you really think of this? And yes I know you won't answer that, but still, I do wonder... I'm also sorry that you have to post such nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

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So what? Seriously, so what? It's those players' own damn fault for jumping the gun, so to speak. And if the numbers were to be changed, and it turns out they have more items than they need, they could sell the excess, you know? Or what others have already suggested, if the trial is changed from X amount of items to X amount of kills, they could turn in the items and get kill credit. Or sell them to those poor saps that actually go for the stage 2 weapon.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

I really wonder why people hate XIII so much. I thought it was a pretty fun game.

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XIII suffers from what every FF has suffered from since VIII came out...that it isn't FFVII or FFVII-2 or a remake of FFVII.

I've seriously enjoyed every FF that's ever come out, even Mystic Quest. Sometimes I think people find it's more fun to nitpick at games than actually play them.

Yeah, I loved XIII and XIII-2 should be here in the morning.

On-Topic:

You know what we need? A strike. If Idk... 50-60% of the playerbase... canceled there account for hell just a month... it would hurt them bad. If they won't listen to reason then why not give them something to listen to? Something that will show them what the future of this game looks like if they keep pulling this shit.

Lol, I always kinda felt it was something like that. For most people, VII was the greatest game ever made, so any game that isnt VII, is going to suck for them.

If they really go through with this trial, I feel like I might as well go ahead and finish my 95 Mandau, then proceed to toss it as soon as the moogle hands it to me, log out and cancel payments on both of my accounts. That seems to be what they want. Do they hate money that much? I've tried to tell myself they aren't REALLY trying to kill the game every time someone says it but I'm starting to believe it now. That's how much of a slap in the face this whole situation feels to me. I've probably given them more than $2500 over the last 6 years, that's pretty shitty to think about with the way they're treating their customers.

I think when my living situation gets worked out here in a few months, I'm going to be cancelling both of my XI accounts and my XIV account (which will probably go sooner because that game isn't worth paying for as it is), and my fiance will probably follow suit, so they'll be out ~$70 a month due to this retardation if they really keep it up. If they actually keep their word and fix this stupid trial so that MOST players can complete it, we'll reconsider. Imagine if every relic holder stopped paying them over this. Do the math SE, you're digging your own grave. Maybe that's what you want though.

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Originally Posted by Damane

I stoped buying the Final Fantasy games after VIII alllready, not missing them kind of. Gave FFXIII a try and found it utter bullshit. And everything else from them has gone to garbage too, so yeah I dont need SE products when there is stuff like mass effect, skyrim etc. I will keep on playing FFXI, but my motivation kind of slipped away with no hope that this trial would ever change. Lets see how long that keeps me going.
Everytime I think now of a SE game, I have this bitter stomach feeling, because of those stupid things they did in FFXI.

Waiting on Guild Wars 2.

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I find it absolutely hilarious that you call FFXIII bullshit while praising a bug-ridden game like Skyrim. You do know that if you play Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 long enough, it becomes nigh unplayable with freezing/lag issues right? Yeah, I know that those issues CAN be fixed but seriously, shit like that never should have made it out of the development studio, especially on a single player console game.