Thief Treasure Hunter

Witty and cute, except that they advise players to do it.

I can understand max TH gear being necessary for a hit (it's still flawed design that a very weak weapon is part of that), but the amount of TH you have shouldn't affect the upgrade rate.

If anything, if they really feel gear should be part of that, make it part of armlets +2. "Increases the upgrade rate of treasure hunter.".

They also advise players to use Ninjas as tanks. SE puts things in their games without consulting how the players view the mechanics, or in cases like this, plain common sense. If you anything more than put on your TH gear for the initial tag and opt to spend 5x the amount of time slowly white-hitting something to death using your Thief's Knife you have a very distorted concept of opportunity cost. The testing that has been done for TH past level 2 suggests that each level comes out to being an extra pair of trousers from a monster every 100 trousers.

Even if you want to argue that that's one more than you would've gotten, think about that from a "how often/long am I playing this game" perspective- you are going on 100 runs to kill 100 hellbeasts and unless you are a obsessive person that runs 5 times a day, this means you're getting maybe 1 extra pair of trousers every year or something. The initial tag of TH7 is worth it because it only takes a couple seconds of your time and it's an increase of 4-5% over what you would've had otherwise. Spending 10 minutes hitting something hoping to go above lv8 or 9 (even getting to 9 requires like 100 rounds in TH7 gear on average) is insane. Keep in mind the evidence suggests that it's not an absolute increase of 1% otherwise it would certainly be worth it for low-drop items. Before Adoulin came along I might've accepted people meleeing in the armlets and the boots because it was the knife that really hurt your DPS, but with the massive power creep in armor stats coming too the armlets and the boots are also problems now.

The fact that some guy at the SE headquarters who probably doesn't even play the game came up with this mechanic and made it so worthless nearly makes me have an aneurysm every time I think about it. It's so stupid that the only way it would make sense to me is that they realized how obsessive their playerbase is and thought of it as a diabolical plan to artificially increase your playtime while making you think you're actually getting something done when you see those feathers fly out of your dagger.

(Yes I know I sound cranky, but srsly actively trying to increase your TH is a waste of time)

I never said a thing about white-hitting something to death. I hate people that do that at Behemoth. I especially hate people that do that single-wielding a thief's knife.

It's already achievable with the 9% belt, or a 7% belt and Ionis, but it won't be long before haste-capping with TH gear on is commonplace. I can't imagine that hands and boots being on are a huge dps loss when you're switching them for ws, as you should be.

Maybe I'd feel different if thf was being invited to things where the speed of the kill was vital, or even worth concern. Certainly, if they change the mechanics of the class, it would be time to rethink things. As for solo farming, like dynamis, I can't help but kill too fast Izi and Apho melt everything solo.

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I can't imagine that hands and boots being on are a huge dps loss when you're switching them for ws, as you should be.

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It was already a pretty big drop in DPS in old pre-Adoulin sets, in the ballpark of 5% or so (This is without losing any haste btw, I used to swap out Raiders Armlets +2 and Asn. Poulaines +2 for the TH stuff before Salvage 2 came along), basically the only time I bothered meleeing in it, like you, was in Dynamis before I had procced anything because I usually just kill them before I am able to proc them, so might as well get some chances at some extra TH. Other than that I can think of one situation where the increased THF damage doesn't matter- places where THF is taken to poke monster for TH and then run back. In these cases you can just full time the TH and maybe plant random sneak attacks and hope for the best.

If hands and feet weren't ilevel slots it wouldn't be as big a deal, but now you're losing like 40-50 base stats etc from swapping the two out, it can make a really big difference (not to mention now those slots DO have haste now). I wouldn't be surprised by a 15+% drop in DPS simply by wearing the TH stuff. THF gets a lot of its damage from TP phase.

But you are right that there's a lot of other things they could fix for the job. Personally I think they should just remove the stupid TH level up mechanic though, because players that don't know any better think it actually does something. I'll take the 10 less bills a week from Dynamis, I can handle it.

(In b4 their solution is to make AF1+2 all have TH+5 on it so THFs only ever wear that anymore, "we want you to assess the situation and see when you should be wearing full Rogue's+2 or gear 10 levels higher")

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It's already achievable with the 9% belt, or a 7% belt and Ionis, but it won't be long before haste-capping with TH gear on is commonplace. I can't imagine that hands and boots being on are a huge dps loss when you're switching them for ws, as you should be.

Maybe I'd feel different if thf was being invited to things where the speed of the kill was vital, or even worth concern. Certainly, if they change the mechanics of the class, it would be time to rethink things. As for solo farming, like dynamis, I can't help but kill too fast Izi and Apho melt everything solo.

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I think i see your logic. You think THF is a useless job and its just not accepted in endgame, and therefor you care so little about it its difficult for you to comprehend that people who truly love the job hate the idea of TH and the failed logic of keeping said gear on and the "Im hr 4 th imma th" mindset that makes normally logical people play like mediocre retards half-a**ing their way to high levels of PlaceboHunter.

That's not to say that's your playstyle, but its the playstle of many-a-thief. Regardless, back before I.lv gear, Hands/Feet being swapped meant that you were, for an example lets say you were using EMp+2 Hands and Relic+2 Feet. Here's the differences.

Treasure Hunter Fulltime TP:

AGI+15
CHR+7
Acc+9
Eva+20
Enmity+5
TH+3.

Useful Armor:

STR+8
DEX+15
CHR+7
Triple Attack+3%
Increases Triple Attack Damage (+3%)
Accuracy+12
Attack+16
Enmity+4

Loss from Fulltime TH Gear:

STR+8
DEX+15
Triple Attack+3%
inc. Trp. Dmg +3%
Acc+3
Attack+16

Gains:

AGI+15
Evasion+20
1 Enmity

I.E Massiv Differences... Even before I.lv Gear. After Item level gear? Well use Iuitl Hands and Iuitl Feet, which will take you like an hour or less worth of effort to obtain. We'll not add Augments (Which would likely be Double Attack+2% each). But here...

Net Gains from Iuitl Gear

STR+19
DEX+47
VIT+35
AGI+28 (over raiders)
MND+34
INT+10
CHR+38
Attack+10
Evasion+53 (Over raiders)
Acc-1 (Asn+2)
m.eva+86
Haste+8

This isn't mentioning PDT-8% and Dbl Atk+4% from both pieces with perfect augments, and I'm leaving out some of the more useless stuff (Snapshot, MDB), and i'm not mentioning the gigantic DEF Gain, honestly if you don't see how this stuff would vastly, VASTLY impact your melee DPS and survivability i don't think you're looking hard enough. The DEX alone is enough to make your dDEX capped on many a thing... It has more of everything except Accuracy, which is made up for in spades through the large DEX bonuses.

Even if the haste doesn't apply because you cap it elsewhere, you're going to be losing significant amounts of DPS fulltiming TH Gear even if only during the TP phase.

Genuinely, thank you for a serious and informative reply.

It truly is tragic that the job has fallen to bits when there are players that truly love it. The same for RDM, PLD, SMN and a few others.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I think i see your logic. You think THF is a useless job and its just not accepted in endgame, and therefor you care so little about it its difficult for you to comprehend that people who truly love the job hate the idea of TH and the failed logic of keeping said gear on and the "Im hr 4 th imma th" mindset that makes normally logical people play like mediocre retards half-a**ing their way to high levels of PlaceboHunter.

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More or less, yeah. That's the case. Except no, it's not difficult for me to comprehend people wanting the job to be more. I am, after all, a paladin. Like you thieves, I still play the job to my very best but I know that the enmity set and the ws set and the different TP sets I carry, depending on whether or not I think my enemy can kill me, are mostly useless. I know that if I showed up in merely my supertanking gear and 40 or 50 free spaces, noone would notice.

In many situations, if I showed up in any gear and just twilight-zombied, noone would notice.

Still, for what meager place PLD has, I am the best pld I can be. ^^

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That's not to say that's your playstyle, but its the playstle of many-a-thief. Regardless, back before I.lv gear, Hands/Feet being swapped meant that you were, for an example lets say you were using EMp+2 Hands and Relic+2 Feet. Here's the differences.

Treasure Hunter Fulltime TP:

AGI+15
CHR+7
Acc+9
Eva+20
Enmity+5
TH+3.

Useful Armor:

STR+8
DEX+15
CHR+7
Triple Attack+3%
Increases Triple Attack Damage (+3%)
Accuracy+12
Attack+16
Enmity+4

Loss from Fulltime TH Gear:

STR+8
DEX+15
Triple Attack+3%
inc. Trp. Dmg +3%
Acc+3
Attack+16

Gains:

AGI+15
Evasion+20
1 Enmity

I.E Massiv Differences... Even before I.lv Gear. After Item level gear? Well use Iuitl Hands and Iuitl Feet, which will take you like an hour or less worth of effort to obtain. We'll not add Augments (Which would likely be Double Attack+2% each). But here...

Net Gains from Iuitl Gear

STR+19
DEX+47
VIT+35
AGI+28 (over raiders)
MND+34
INT+10
CHR+38
Attack+10
Evasion+53 (Over raiders)
Acc-1 (Asn+2)
m.eva+86
Haste+8

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Okay, and if I was thief playing in that content, I'd definitely be doing that, but nobody is a thief playing in that content. There's no reason to bring a thief to that level of content. In most the places I farm, because I don't farm in adoulin, because there's just not real money drops, Maybe I'm not capped on the potency of stats (ddex, etc), but I'm pretty close--I'm probably attack-capped, and in that situation, all I'm losing is 4 DA since the stuff usually isn't hitting me harder than drain samba can take care of.

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Even if the haste doesn't apply because you cap it elsewhere, you're going to be losing significant amounts of DPS fulltiming TH Gear even if only during the TP phase.

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In the content thieves are doing... they don't lose that much dps. The only major hit to DPS is that stupid dagger.

I am all for buffing thieves, and buffing the desire to have them there. I'm all for getting rid of that stupid dagger, but until they do either, I'm happy with my thief optimized for where it's at.

Like my paladin, I respect that some thieves want to take it to the very limit but I have no logic reason to hate on a paladin who has accepted what paladin is, and I think it's not a bad thing that some people have accepted the "value" (I don't like that word, but couldn't think of a better one) of TP'ing in TH gear. It's basically kill speed vs the quality of TH. In trivial content, neither one greatly outshines the other. Sometimes TH7, or TH9, or whatever may just be the reason the 100 piece dropped. We simply can't know why something dropped, merely that it did, or it didn't.

To me, Its not about "Accepting what Thief is". For all intents and purpose I'm rarely invited to a party on Thief to "TH and gtfo", my goal is Treasure Hunter and Damage, and most thieves fail to understand the "Damage" Part which is the issue. I propose Thief's who fulltime TH Gear for any phase (TP or otherwise) have forgotten their role in a party all together as they are more than just TH whores, they have the potential for aiding in the fight in more than just the Placebo pill Job Trait. The fact that Thieves have forgotten how to damage and not simply accept "I'm a TH" is the core reason why the job is fallen to such a dismal state. There's not an event in existence right now that would be made or broke based on a Thief being in a DD party.

So, I hate Thieves who use "Treasure Hunter" as an excuse to be gimp... Let me try to explain it best i can. Paladin is a great defensive job, Magical and Physical. Imagine an alternate universe where PLDs all have Aegis in the form of a Job trait. 50% MDT, breaks cap... Now, imagine because of this they are invited a good deal for said Job trait to tank magical enemies, but still able to easily use Ochain to tank Physically... But over time people just adopt "Aegis" as their key role, and the ability for PLDs to tank Physically heavy enemies become harder because PLDs adopt the mindset "I'm only here for Aegis" and fail to gear the job properly for its other roles, in this case, taking physical damage.

Now, imagine you are a PLD who utilize Ochain and know you can tank Physically as well as magically, but due to the incompetence of your peers over the course of time, you are not wanted for it because no one believes you are capable to any degree due to the stigma the job now holds.

Ergo you are now considered useless for something you know you are capable of because your peers have ruined the jobs image. You cannot play your job because of the incompetence, laziness and excuses for mediocrity that other of your job have spewed for years to the point it is both the logical norm and accepted status quot. Now if you can honestly say you would not grow to hate or look in disgust at the type of PLDs who put your job into the sad state it is, You're lying.

This is the situation Thief is currently in. Due to the mindset of "I'm just here for TH", the job has a stigma of being just plain awful, when in the reality of it they can perform competently and contribute at the very least a solid amount of damage to current endgame fights as well as the benefit of TH, an that a good Thief can in fact out-perform the majority of Pick up DD's, and just because the WAR has an Ukon (Or in this age, a Ixtab) does not mean he's going to win the parse in his Twilight Helm/Body 3/5 Karieyh set.

Point for Point a True 2-handed DD > THF if performing well, but Thief is actually so far down the sh*t hole that people can't even imagine a GREAT thief outparsing a sh*t DD. Even when i had 99 Mandau back when it was good, it was rare I'd get into the BRD party despite me outparsing half the DD in it with me unbuffed.

So its not that i hate Thieves for "knowing their place", its that I hate the Thieves who used "Their place" as an excuse for their poor damage, mediocrity, and over-all discrediting the entire job as a whole. I know the Potential Thief has, and while it has room to grow as a DD or in many fields, Its not nearly as bad as the stigma the job holds. This is why i hate those types of thieves and their logic of "TH onry".

Well said Karbuncle.

I wish SE would buff these jobs so that they weren't in a position where people expected one task out of them. I'm not one of the mediocre thieves you talk about (and you even said you weren't saying that I necessarily was), but I certainly don't play it at your level (and never will), but we both have capped TH, I'm sure, good ws's sets, and probably have access to the same gear (besides relic, af+1, etc) and groups would expect exactly the same from our thieves.

A real shame.

(In a real group setting, where you desire to bring your thief, I wouldn't TP in TH gear lol^^). They need updated for new skirmish freebies, but I do have non TH TP macros.

It's not ALL doom and gloom for THF DD:

The ability to dual wield two delve daggers before shark dagger is a nice change.

1 hand stat buffs and Att cap raise helped close the gap.

But there are a couple of glaring reasons THF still can't compete (as a job):

• Positionality - THF is the only DD running the "I have to be in position to use my abilities" gambit. Monsters constantly change directions. Other players constantly move, fidgit, etc.
  
• Recast Timers - 60 seconds recast time on Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is far too long. This means our WS spam gains significantly less than proper DD's that do not rely on timed abilities for respectable WS.
  
• Generally weaker WS Options - Exenterator is pretty "meh" in the DD ratrace with its super cool AGI mod :rolleyes:. REM WS are dead till updates (but even these are still tied to SATA timers).

Even at a perfect hypothetical 100% land rate of SA/TA, and perfect riding of timers each time they are up, THF DD is still weaker than other DD's that don't have to work as hard. Add in the things from my list and THF starts falling behind even more. A certain portion of your DD potential is just at the mercy (no pun intended) of your group.

The things from this list also mean that THF gains significantly less than other DD's from stacking Haste buffs. All that lead time trying to get into position, the less than perfect land rate with SATA, the timer restrictions, the generally weaker WS options, etc.

It's never been that a THF CAN'T DD. It's that it's more work for less damage payout than a more accepted DD. It's also a pain in the ass for the group to try and cater to your positional needs (they just won't).

Realistically, why would anyone take a Pick up THF to DD when there are more than enough MNK DRK WAR SAM waiting on shouts.

I think it can be saved with a tweak or two to SA/TA. I'd be more than happy to wipe the floor with 95% of the playerbase while DDing on THF.

The main problem is the mindset of the playerbase, nobody is going to invite a THF to DD over a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG or SAM unless they're a good friend or placebohunter is needed, it doesn't matter how good you are.

Look how many threads there are of thieves saying they've out parsed real DD`s on THF, the response is always the same, "if you out parsed a DRK on THF then that DRK sucked" it's never, wow you're a good THF that knows how to DD, it's always the other DD`s suck.

This mindset is what is keeping THF out of Adoulin events more than the job itself. A lot of thieves just play the job for TH because they don't see a reason to be the very best THF on the server because it still won't get you into events.