Just because I've noticed some people here and other places wanting to hear what sort of alternative I had expected for pup, I'll provide two examples of how using the same concept would be implemented in a much more appropriate/useful fashion:
First Example: Similar to the current one, but admitting that while the puppets are each based on player jobs, they are not, themselves, those jobs, and their unique 2hours should not be identical.
- Harlequin: An ability that either puts a nasty debuff on the mob (similar to the thought behind brd's new 2hour) or gives THE MASTER a buff that validates using harlequin for any reason other than getting laughed at.
- Valoredge: An ability that temporarily transfers all damage taken by the master to the puppet, or vice versa, or both, transfering it to whomever doesn't have hate, and ignoring AoE damage that hits both. Alternatively, do it with TP.
- Sharpshot: An ability that drops the Ranged Attack recast to 0~2 seconds, essentially giving sharpshot the ability to make use of that rapid crossbow we had to pay out the ass for/spend forever finding mats and a crafter for when we made the thing. It could even weaken the ranged attacks a bit to not be totally overpowered, since at best we're able to hit 12 seconds between ranged attacks and then have to rely on low-skill melee attacks to actually get TP. For the record, 12 seconds between ranged attacks is equal to ~1320 ranged delay, and that's with an r.acc penalty. The 20 second base delay is an outrageous 2200 delay. If SE tried to force players to use weapons with over 1k delay, everyone would just laugh at them.
- Stormwaker: The opposite of what harlequin got; if Harle was given an enfeeble, give stormwaker a badass buffing ability; if harle got the badass buff, give stormwaker a really nasty 2hourdebuff ability.
- Soulsoother: Since soulsoother is probably the most like its base job, giving a benediction-esqe effect would be fine, so long as it's not stupid like this one, and actually effects the entire party. If you want to keep off whm's toes, make it so that it only heals 50% of everyone's max HP or something, or that it gives them their HP back as a regen effect instead of in one big chunk. Actually, I kind of like that latter one, instead of Benediction it'd be Regenediction, and could be like, 5% HP/tick regen, which would heal 100% of a player's HP over 60 seconds, and would actually be as useful as benediction, without being the same thing, and useful in different situations. Alternatively; Mijin Gacure (terrible spelling pun, I'm sorry), the puppet detonates itself and the explosion heals all the surrounding party members.
- Spiritreaver: Spiritreaver's a bit trickier, since manafont is functionally pointless, and chainspell with T5 nukes would be... a tad wonky, since it would be more like nuke nuke aspir aspir aspir aspir nuke aspir aspir nuke aspir aspir aspir nuke, unless the target isn't aspirable, and then it would be nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke mpgonenowwhatdoIdo? Simply giving it a damage boost would be questionable, because every other nuking job would want that as their 2hour too, and the alternative of giving it access to an otherwise inaccessible spell would be silly, since the only spells strong enough to actually make that work would be Impact, Comet, and Meteor, any of which would cause blms to rage pretty hard, though meteor more so than the other two. We could make pretty good use of Comet and Impact, I'd think, but having them as a 2hour would be a bit underwhelming. I really can't think of anything special for spiritreaver otherwise, though.
Second Example: One I sort of touched on earlier, and the one I feel would be more appropriate for pup, given the split between pet/master heavily favors the master (not to the degree of drg, but still); a spirit surge-esqe ability that could vary by frame, or just be universal.
- Standardized: Merges the Master and the Automaton, and really, the buff could be nearly identical to spirit surge (25% magic haste, Max HP+15%, adds pet's TP upon usage) and replace the Jump enhancements, and the large str enhancement, with this instead: any active maneuvers when the JA is used will be converted into stat buffs for the master (ie: fire maneuver -> str, thunder -> dex, etc), giving +20 stat for the first of a type of maneuver, and +5 for each identical maneuver (so 3 FM would be STR+30, 2 FM 1 TM would be STR+25 DEX+20, and 1 FM 1 TM 1 EM would be STR+20 DEX+20 VIT+20)
By Frame:
- Universal traits: Pet is lost, max HP is increased, and at the time of use the master will both receive the pet's TP, and be healed based on the pet's current HP; additionally, it would give stat buffs based on the current pet's head/frame combo, converting elemental capacity x3 to stats (essentially, Fire -> str, Thunder -> dex, Wnd -> agi, Earth -> vit, Water -> mnd, Ice -> int, but let's convert light maneuvers to a regen effect, since chr is useless, and since dark maneuvers translate to mp, let's change that, to a 1:1 regain effect (1 slot = 1 tp/tick)
- Harlequin: Gives the master an averaged buff; Stat buffs (harle head/frame would be str/dex/vit/agi/mnd/int+15 9HP/tick regen and 3tp/tick regain), atk+5%, acc+15, def+5%, eva+15, MDT-5%, 10% JA haste
- Valoredge: Gives the master a boost in survivability; Stat buffs (str/vit +21, dex/agi, mnd+9, int+6, 15HP/tick regen and 2tp/tick regain), atk+10%, def+10%, a larger increase to max HP relative to the other frames, as well as temporarily granting valoredge's natural DT (it would give the master -20%; it's actually -12%+9% from stout servant, but I'm rounding down for clean numbers), and just because it wouldn't be SE otherwise, it would also significantly boost guard's proc rate while active (they might even let it go as high as a staggering 10% proc rate!); Additionally, it would change the pup's melee attacks to slashing damage (WS would still be blunt)
- Sharpshot: Gives the master a boost in damage; Stat buffs (agi+21, str/dex+18, mnd+15, vit+9, int +6, 15HP/tick and 2tp/tick regain), 25% JA haste, acc+30, crit rate+10%, and it would change the pup's melee attacks to piercing damage (WS would still be blunt)
- Stormwaker: Gives the master a magical edge; Stat buffs (see below, since it would vary by head), 10% Magic haste, MDT-10%, M.Eva+ (whatever the equivalent amount would be based on the other frames), and it would convert the pup's melee attacks to magical damage (either non-elemental, like formless strikes, or elemental, based on either the day or the weather (or both; like how geode drops work: Weather takes priority, but if it's not present, the day will determine it); WS would still be physical blunt damage)
--- Full Stormwaker Stats: int+21, mnd+18, vit+15, agi+12, dex+9, str+6, 9HP/tick regen, 6TP/tick regain
--- Soulsoother Stats: int+21, mnd+18, vit+15, agi+12, dex+9, str+6, 18HP/tick regen, 4TP/tick regain
--- Spiritreaver Stats: int+21, mnd+18, vit+15, agi+12, dex+9, str+6, 9HP/tick regen, 7TP/tick regain
Did I actually expect SE to implement something this intricate? No. Did I expect SE to do better than what they're presenting now? Yes. By a good deal. The only real downfall with overdrive is that it affects the pet, and not the master, since the pet is the lesser focus for pup. If Overdrive affected the master, that shit would have been so nice...
New 2-hour Abilities
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08-02-2012, 01:37 AMTheytak
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08-02-2012, 01:42 AMKitkat
To be honest a lot of these sound more like 5~20minute timer abilities rather than new desirable 2hours. SE really needs to make it's mind up on what the heck they want rdm to be cause they are driving it more and more into soloer with the spells and 2hour it is getting, not to mention passing off enfeeble spells, that should be exclusive, to other jobs while our only real exclusives come in the form of merits that we can't even benefit the full power of on all because of merit category caps.
Thf Major damage...so what...is this some kind of super sneak/trick attack? That major damage better be 3 or 4x what we can already do.
Blu, as others have already said, the recast on the spells are far too long to really make this worth anything at all. This would have to reduce recast of UK spells and activate the TP modifiers of the spells to make it worth using over AL (cause face it, we already know these two hours are more than likely going to share timers with pre-existing 2hours) -
08-02-2012, 01:44 AMBadieh
If someone pissed me off, I would use Sch 2h ability on them... LOL! Oh nooooo!
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08-02-2012, 01:57 AM0nionKn1ght
Ok lets get rating!
Sounds good, Mighty Misses was always a kind of crappy emergency button, this improves on that greatly.Quote:
WAR
Regular attacks will become non-elemental and grants a drastic increase in accuracy.
Another good one, good for tanking, great for doing some fast damage, stacked with Hundred Fists you could solo Absolute Virtue! :D - Alone, a good enough ability to stand up and stand out, people would use this over Hundred Fist's.Quote:
MNK
Grants a 100% counter-rate against regular attacks from enemies. Also, the amount of enmity gained by this will increase drastically.
I see it's application, but with it being so situational, and most endgame being zerg fests, it would only serve as a ward, incase something may go wrong. Can see it being useful on NM fights with Morbol's and particularly nasty status inflicting encounters.Quote:
WHM
Grants party members protection from status ailments.
I believe that BLM already has a similar JA, so doubt this would be used so long as they still have Manafont. It would literally need to reduce all spells to 0 for the duration of the 2 hour to even raise consideration. Can only see very selfish BLM's considering this for their arsenal.Quote:
BLM
Grants a drastic decrease in enmity generated by magic attacks.
Yeah... sorry SE no idea what you are thinking here, it's like you have pushed RDM so far out of the game, you are now trying to push it into other games. See my thread in the RDM forums for an alternative suggestion to this.... thing....Quote:
RDM
Grants an increase to the effect and effect duration of enhancing magic.
As good as Perfect Dodge in terms of utility, if you can find someone to be your Patsy. It sounds like a Trick Attack status for a short time frame basically. No problems with this one, I see it being used far more than PD is at the moment.Quote:
THF
Major damage is dealt to the enemy and all enmity will be transferred to the player standing in front of them.
No complaints, Invincible is still going to pip this one at the post, but this has situational application where you know when an encounter is going to use humongous physical damage, thus all of it can be bounced back onto the target.Quote:
PLD
Grants an increase to the chance of blocking with a shield and reflects the blocked damage to the attacker.
Eh, Blood Weapon and this are about equal, as you are going to be Weapon Skilling faster for this time frame. No issues, seems this one will be down to the DRK's choice. Don't see it as anything too mental, compared to what that class already has.Quote:
DRK
Steals an enemy's TP through regular attacks while the effect is active.
This would have been amazing pre-Abyssea Alliance exp days when the only way to level was out at the back end of beyond, and still good-ish now, but doesn't offer anything that temp items and GoV books don't already. Seems odd that a BST 2 hour removes your pet though. Would be interesting to see if this can be used on Charmed pets, giving it a drastically higher usability, but for now, Familiar is far far better. Would have much preferred to have seen the 2 hour give 5 minutes of a summoned Wyvern or Morbol.Quote:
BST
Absorbs the pet and recovers both HP and removes status ailments. Also, the player will receive a Reraise effect.
People still play BRD? Haven't seen a single one since returning a few weeks back, but in any case, a usable 2 hour, but eclipsed by Soul Voice, due to it giving such a huge boost. Can't see people using this one, unless on a fight where Physical damage is kind of useless, and magic damage is the only option.Quote:
BRD
Drastically reduces the magic defense, magic evasion, and INT/MND of the target.
If this is just for one shot, then it is awful, but if it's a 5/10 minute buff, it sounds pretty damn useful. EES has already been made kind of useless, due to most of the RNG's WS's exceeding it's damage. I would have preferred to see some kind of super Shadowbind, meaning the target is bound, slept, silenced etc for 30 seconds and nothing can break it, even damage done to the affected target.Quote:
RNG
The range modifier will become the optimal distance no matter the range to the target. Also, ammunition will not be consumed.
A solo ability if I am reading it right, in that you gain almost like an enrage as you evade more incoming attacks. Sounds fine, Meikyo Shisui (sp?) is already kind of outpowered by SAM's generally being able to generate enough TP to skillchain continuously now, this would definately see some usage.Quote:
SAM
All damage caused by physical special abilities will be evaded. Additionally, weapon skill damage will increase as more special abilities are evaded.
Excellent, far better than the D3 they currently have. No complaints about this one, a functional and practical 2 hour.Quote:
NIN
Grants a drastic increase in parry rate. Additionally, Ninjutsu recast times will be reduced by 50% and ninja tools will not be consumed.
Sounds great, it's a halfway line at summoning a full grown Wyvern. Hopefully the Wyvern will grow a little while this is active at least.Quote:
DRG
Wyvern’s HP is completely restored and all status ailments are cured. Additionally, the wyvern’s stats will increase.
THIS SOUNDS BALANCED AND IN NO WAY SHOULD BE CHANGED AND NOT AT ALL BECAUSE I AM PLAYING A SMN99 AND SEE THIS AS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL ABILITIES OF ALL TIME... OF ALL TIME! >_>Quote:
SMN
The recast time of both summoning magic and Blood Pacts will become 0 while under the effect of the ability.
BLU's are heading for a major nerf at some point I think, being as they can currently solo chain 15-20 mobs at once in Abyssea for huge turnaround. This 2 hour has further put them into the mentally OP category. Don't enjoy this too long BLU's, SE won't allow this forever :)Quote:
BLU
While the ability is in effect, blue magic from Unbridled Learning can be used continuously.
Perfect, no complaints. Will be used over their current one alot.Quote:
COR
Grants the ability to use up to 3 Phantom Roll effects.
Love it, functional, practical and appropriate for whatever situation the PUP will already be in. Reactive and very nicely thought out. I likes!Quote:
PUP
Automaton will use special abilities. Special ability usage will depend on the automaton head.
Harlequin Head: Mighty Strikes
Valoredge Head: Invincible
Sharpshot Head: Eagle Eye Shot
Stormwaker Head: Chainspell
Soulsoother Head: Benediction (Will only apply to the master and automaton)
Spiritreaver Head: Manafont
Trance is already powerful, this is equal in power. Sounds good.Quote:
DNC
Grants maximum amount of Finishing Moves and the recast time of all Flourishes will be reset.
Additionally, while the ability is in effect, Finishing Moves will not be consumed.
Meh, nothing I wasn't expecting, but was hoping for SCH to see something a little more interesting, however it serves a nice purpose. Would be used, if it wasn't for Tabula Rasa already being in their arsenal.Quote:
SCH
Will direct enmity of all party members to an indicated player.
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08-02-2012, 02:21 AMKitkatThink you're misunderstanding something about blu. At most I see this possibly being a chainspell-type 2hour with hardly any potency backing it up (AKA no tp modifiers active). In this sense it just turns the spells, which aren't exactly high on the zomg-pwn meter without tp modifier active, and very few of them are even worth using. So if it does reduce spells to "active" and no recast then it has the same exact pitfall of chainspell: if it is on something that has high def, resists the type of dmg, or the spell just doesn't have much umph behind it without TP mod active anyway it is just an mp sink. In this case we are better off sticking to Azure Lore over using this.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0nionKn1ght
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08-02-2012, 02:31 AMHayward
Can't really say that PLD ability is game-changing enough to warrant a 2-hour cooldown unless it reflects all physical damage including TP moves.
That SMN 2-hour sounds crazy for all-out blitz fights. I like it.
The RDM 2-hour? Try again, guys.
Automaton 2-hours sound almost too insane for words. On top of that, I have an excuse to use Harlequin again. -
08-02-2012, 03:00 AMOMEGA_HACK
SCH one sounds like it fits the role (lore-wise) being a tactical mage. So while it will probably NEVER be used over Embrava + Embrava + Embrava with a toss in of Kaustra for giggles, it fits the "lore bill". So meh...would've been happier if we got to unlock Ultima or something...
Or hell make it the same as Tabla Rasa, name it Omnes in Unum, wipes all spells from our list and gives Ultima (Non-elemental massive magic damage) and the other spell be the current ability you are using as this new two-hour.
DRG's 2hr is crap, hands down crap. Yes, I know we don't know the values of the strength increase but still I would've liked to see something more along the lines of a Spirit Bond kind of ability wherein both Dragoon and Wyvvern are sync'd and share all traits and abilities for a duration.
This means the Wyvern will gain any status enhancements you have (haste+bar spells+rolls+songs+etc+etc) as well as your current traits (double attack+evasion bonus+resists+etc+etc) and the Dragoon will receive all the Wyvern's status enhancements (Steady Wing being the big one) as well as traits. Also the Wyvern will gain the ability to use the Jumps attacks as well (they will just use it when you use yours, and they will deal damage and gain tp as you do) as well as any other abilities. Duration 30sec-1min
Now we've solved both problems of Dragoon's ability to stay alive as well as the Wyvern's weakness on bigger bads. -
08-02-2012, 03:53 AMCamate
Greetings!
Thanks for all the feedback thus far on the new 2-hour abilities.
Along with the feedback from the test server, we will be sure to utilize it for further adjustments.
In regards to effect durations and values, they will most likely be adjusted before they are implemented to the live server so please try them out first on the test server and get a feel for them. We are looking forward to hearing your thoughts after testing them out.
We are getting closer to the final stretch to implement these abilities on the test server, so hang in there just a bit longer.
Additionally, we made a few corrections to two of these new abilities. (The original list posted yesterday has been corrected as well.)
- RDM:
Incorrect: Grants an increase to the effect and effect duration of enhancing magic.
Correct: Grants an increase to the effect of enhancing magic.
- PUP:
Incorrect: Soulsoother Head: Benediction (Will only apply to the master and automaton)
Correct: Soulsoother Head: Benediction (Will apply to the party members and automaton itself)
- RDM:
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08-02-2012, 04:02 AMtyrantsynUgh, that suck's on RDM. Tell em we like it better the way you had it Camate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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08-02-2012, 04:17 AMSpankWustler
Other than Beastmaster and Bluemage, I don't see a lot of these as that bad. Some are ridiculously situational and some are only mildly less awful than the current disappointing 2-hour ability for whatever job they're on, but I could see them being useful at least once before the Earth tumbles into the Sun.
I just noticed that there's no "Reduces recast of Finishing Moves to 0," in the Dancer ability. It could be worse than I thought at first if that's not in it. Still, probably better than Trance.
Nothing new to add about the Beastmaster ability, but I still want to ruminate on how pointless it is for a moment. I have never felt the desire to eat my hideous monster buddy to gain the effect I get from a Reraise Earring and a few spells or waltzes.
I'd be fine with giving up defense for offense, actually, I'd love that. Giving up offense for defense would be useful in some situations. This is basically giving up defense for defense, though, and it feels like trading one orange for another orange that somebody peed on.
Run Wild II: God Hates You, All of You
A major nerf at the point somebody uses the new two-hour instead of Azure Lore. The ability sounds much worse if one knows that the modifiers and fTP values for Unbridled Learning spells are pretty much the same as those for normal spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0nionKn1ght
A lot of the spells have useful effects, such as Bilge Storm, but casting the spell over and over won't apply more of those effects. Sometimes the effects are also highly situational, such as that from Gates of Hades.