To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

I think most people in here are listening about as much as you are.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

But you were the healer in the situation and everyone died.

It's possible that an uncapped healing magic, lack of MP, lack of cure gear, or anything else, would have been your fault and would contribute to the fall of your run. Not one player does make a trio. I'd make sure those were on cap and then retry it again with a different ninja.

Good luck!

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Remind me again who died? Sorry, I guess I missed that.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

If he'd leveled the classic way, he might not have had nin past 50 yet. Do you think a 50 nin would have spent hours skilling up yet, or do you think he would start doing that as he hit the cap?

Sorry Eyeballed, I don't think the nin would have been any better if you had it your way.

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Ninja starts getting Ni nukes and debuffs around Lv41; Do your job right and there won't be any of this manual-skillup corner-standing.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Ninja starts getting Ni nukes and debuffs around Lv41; Do your job right and there won't be any of this manual-skillup corner-standing.

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No. I actually leveled NIN to the mid-50s in 2005 and exercised due diligence in keeping Ninjutsu capped. Until you actually get those Ni nukes, NIN lacks a reasonable way to skill up ninjutsu; Ichi nukes do insignificant damage and have a long cast time, so it's impossible to do reasonable damage (and thus tank) with them. Even if you could, you still don't even get THOSE until 15, at which point you're horribly behind skill already. You can only get skillups off unresisted spells, meaning you have to devote solo time to getting Ninjutsu close to cap before you can start landing the unresisted spells on ITs you'll need to keep it up while leveling.

There was, simply put, no way to level ninjutsu in an XP party without devoting possibly tens of hours to the extremely expensive and unrewarding process of leveling it specifically. It is perhaps not unreasonable to expect a NIN to make an effort to leveling ninjutsu but at no point could that have ever happened without substantial extracurricular effort, 6-man parties or no.

If you wanted to make the case for old school partying, ninjutsu skill is basically the worst possible evidence you could have used.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No. I actually leveled NIN to the mid-50s in 2005 and exercised due diligence in keeping Ninjutsu capped. Until you actually get those Ni nukes, NIN lacks a reasonable way to skill up ninjutsu; Ichi nukes do insignificant damage and have a long cast time, so it's impossible to do reasonable damage (and thus tank) with them. Even if you could, you still don't even get THOSE until 15, at which point you're horribly behind skill already. You can only get skillups off unresisted spells, meaning you have to devote solo time to getting Ninjutsu close to cap before you can start landing the unresisted spells on ITs you'll need to keep it up while leveling.

There was, simply put, no way to level ninjutsu in an XP party without devoting possibly tens of hours to the extremely expensive and unrewarding process of leveling it specifically. It is perhaps not unreasonable to expect a NIN to make an effort to leveling ninjutsu but at no point could that have ever happened without substantial extracurricular effort, 6-man parties or no.

If you wanted to make the case for old school partying, ninjutsu skill is basically the worst possible evidence you could have used.

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Please, read this carefully. If I had some crayons and a helmet, I'd draw you a picture:

NINJA LV99

I was not the one who brought up ninjutsu as an example of how old XP styles made skilling up more fluid.

Ninjutsu is not only expensive to level but also generally lacks the sort of spammable self-buffs others use to level magic skills and does not get practical skill-up spells for a very long time. I wouldn't condone making it to level 99 with 100 skill but I seriously doubt old-school XP would have made this particular guy more inclined to keep it capped.

If it had really become a problem, it is much more likely he would have stopped playing NIN entirely, which is only a good result if you're a psychopath.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

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Pretty much this:

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Except, as we continuely told you, leveling a job has zero impact on whether a person has learned their job or not. There is a world of difference between (say for example) blink tanking for an experience party and doing an Under Observation run.

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You will not come anywhere near capping ninjitsu just by using shadows and you will find very little use for casting anything else in an exp party on the way to 40 (or even 99 for that matter).

Your right about it not being an issue though. Like I said earlier, if he hadn't burned his ninja up, you wouldn't have this issue because you would have done nothing instead of going on a run.

If you would rather do nothing, then no changes need to be made to the game. You don't even need the game for that matter. As I also said earlier, there is a free jeuno chat watch window on FFXIAH.com. You don't even have to pay for a FFXI account to sit in town and do nothing.

Basically the guy lied to you and he sucked, but you chose to blame an arbitrary game mechanic for his behavior instead of him. I would really like to borrow some gil from you. I'm curious to see if you will blame the auction house or the magian moogles when I don't pay you back.'

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Please, read this carefully. If I had some crayons and a helmet, I'd draw you a picture:

NINJA LV99

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Read this carefully: His ninja would probably not even be high enough to do the BCNM without having abyssea burned it.

That last part made me smile, Frank :o.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

What you're saying is that I'm assuming a BLM in 2005 could have gotten to Lv75 basically without nuking. Preposterous.

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Wait, I didn't get the memo where NIN was now a nuker with an extensive array of spammable spells that don't use up tools [which are limited] and an array of self-buffs to constantly spam in order to keep his skills leveled! This is good news for me! brb let me go spam the elemental wheel without tools to skill up, I might be done next year.

No offense, but comparing a NIN to a BLM is severely fallacious. NIN honestly has absolutely no need to use any ninjutsu at low levels other than Utsusemi, and even then the skills you obtain from Utsusemi are few and far in between. If you're expecting someone to spam their elemental wheel in an XP party instead of tanking normally, you have absolutely no idea how a ninja works [I'm inclined to believe].

Even then, post-50, your only real use for the elemental wheel is... procs?

...Where do you use procs anyway? Abyssea?

...VW? Gosh, I guess we have a problem then. I guess I'll just waste millions of shihei to get my skills capped then!

In all seriousness, a career ninja doesn't get his Ninjutsu capped very easily at all. Please realize this. Don't blame him for not having them capped. I understand you made a mistake in assuming he was somehow an amazing player that would effortlessly win the BCNM for you, but you'd be very surprised how many people suck at some of their jobs. Lack of knowledge implies lack of training, lack of training could easily make you aware that they do not spend a lot of time using the job, therefore their skills will be... lacking [redundancy!]?

Oh, and I've had my ninja for a long time, I still haven't finished capping ninjutsu. Sure, I have it past subjob level, but it took a very long time.

i returned because of abyssea. (well i returned out of curiosity, i STAYED because of abyssea) now that abyssea is over, i've left again.

i dunno where this "silent majority" of aby haters are. all my friends quit LONG before aby (i was the last holdout.) and i don't think i've met one player in game who hated aby. at least none ever mentioned it to me... and the fact that i suddenly had people to play with again makes me think they liked it.

no bullshit, i've met more PRO-rdmmelee players than ANTI-aby players. i'm fairly certain they're imaginary. even on these forums, which include players from every server at once, we get like... what, 5 of them?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I was not the one who brought up ninjutsu as an example of how old XP styles made skilling up more fluid.

Ninjutsu is not only expensive to level but also generally lacks the sort of spammable self-buffs others use to level magic skills and does not get practical skill-up spells for a very long time. I wouldn't condone making it to level 99 with 100 skill but I seriously doubt old-school XP would have made this particular guy more inclined to keep it capped.

If it had really become a problem, it is much more likely he would have stopped playing NIN entirely, which is only a good result if you're a psychopath.

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You seriously doubt? Speaks volumes to me.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Pretty much this:

You will not come anywhere near capping ninjitsu just by using shadows and you will find very little use for casting anything else in an exp party on the way to 40 (or even 99 for that matter).

Edit:

Read this carefully: His ninja would probably not even be high enough to do the BCNM without having abyssea burned it.

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I started to respond, but then I remembered I'm talking to someone who didn't know what Under Observation was in the first place. Silly me.

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Originally Posted by Modoru

Wait, I didn't get the memo where NIN was now a nuker with an extensive array of spammable spells that don't use up tools [which are limited] and an array of self-buffs to constantly spam in order to keep his skills leveled! This is good news for me! brb let me go spam the elemental wheel without tools to skill up, I might be done next year.

No offense, but comparing a NIN to a BLM is severely fallacious. NIN honestly has absolutely no need to use any ninjutsu at low levels other than Utsusemi, and even then the skills you obtain from Utsusemi are few and far in between. If you're expecting someone to spam their elemental wheel in an XP party instead of tanking normally, you have absolutely no idea how a ninja works [I'm inclined to believe].

Even then, post-50, your only real use for the elemental wheel is... procs?

...Where do you use procs anyway? Abyssea?

...VW? Gosh, I guess we have a problem then. I guess I'll just waste millions of shihei to get my skills capped then!

In all seriousness, a career ninja doesn't get his Ninjutsu capped very easily at all. Please realize this. Don't blame him for not having them capped. I understand you made a mistake in assuming he was somehow an amazing player that would effortlessly win the BCNM for you, but you'd be very surprised how many people suck at some of their jobs. Lack of knowledge implies lack of training, lack of training could easily make you aware that they do not spend a lot of time using the job, therefore their skills will be... lacking [redundancy!]?

Oh, and I've had my ninja for a long time, I still haven't finished capping ninjutsu. Sure, I have it past subjob level, but it took a very long time.

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Ninja was my 3rd job to 75 some time ago. Sure, it was very expensive to play, but that fact bears no weight with the fact that myself and every Ninja since had been able to do what was asked of this guy. This is the first time I've encountered it, really.

As far as "NIN spells are unnecessary", I can tell you that's not true, either. I did use shuriken from Lv19 onward, all of my debuffs and the full wheel on my way up. Doing so, I could tank without a THF in party. Yeah, it was expensive, but if you can't afford to do it right then don't do it.

When was the last time you tanked on Ninja in a Lv12-54 classic grind party?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I started to respond, but then I remembered I'm talking to someone who didn't know what Under Observation was in the first place. Silly me.

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Now you've lost any and all priviledges of accusing other people of running out of arguments.

I got to 65 on NIN nearing the end of Meripo era, so I can tell you, I tanked quite often. I did not need the wheel.

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Originally Posted by Modoru

I got to 65 on NIN nearing the end of Meripo era, so I can tell you, I tanked quite often. I did not need the wheel.

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I just happened to say shuriken, debuffs and the wheel. I used all 3 just to be sure. So you're saying you did just fine with provoke and TP spam? And why did you stop at 65?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Now you've lost any and all priviledges of accusing other people of running out of arguments.

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Oh no, lol. Just tired of wasting my energy on people who are being deliberately obtuse.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Oh no, lol. Just tired of wasting my energy on people who are being deliberately obtuse.

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Sorry to tell you but looking at what you said...

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I started to respond, but then I remembered I'm talking to someone who didn't know what Under Observation was in the first place. Silly me.

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Are you not the same with current end game? You speak of how bad it is, how your leveling went the way of the dinosaurs but you have never done current endgame so far as we have heard from you. Meaning that you cant really say much about Abyssea being bad, VW being bad, or anything endgame being bad, because you have yet to try it. They don't know what UO is, but you have never tried these contents either so really what does that say about your end of the argument?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Sorry to tell you but looking at what you said...Are you not the same with current end game? You speak of how bad it is, how your leveling went the way of the dinosaurs but you have never done current endgame so far as we have heard from you. Meaning that you cant really say much about Abyssea being bad, VW being bad, or anything endgame being bad, because you have yet to try it. They don't know what UO is, but you have never tried these contents either so really what does that say about your end of the argument?

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Because I'm not arguing against endgame, that's why! I'm arguing against book-burning, afk progression, and the destruction of any need for party tactics that were once in place.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Because I'm not arguing against endgame, that's why! I'm arguing against book-burning, afk progression, and the destruction of any need for party tactics that were once in place.

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You argue against Abyssea(afk progression), which is a form of end game. A simple way to say it is I agree, leveling while doing nothing is bad, if your leveling you should be doing something. But thats the extent Ill agree, keying is ok, GoV is ok, rest is fine, just not getting something for nothing. Now on the other hand I make 1 exception to that, which is FCs and their sort. You work for the money you have every reason to level a job while not playing because you did play for the time you had to obtain said money and thus earned it.

Also while you may not argue against Endgame directly let me remind you much of endgame would be even more impossible to do without everyone being so high of level so fast because it would limit job options and available players. VW is starting to die again on my server already, and I think if leveling wasn't how it is now, it would be even worse for it, not to mention Legion, Nyzul, and all of the like. The game is admittedly not for midgame anymore, endgame is all it is, and all it should probably be after 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

You argue against Abyssea(afk progression), which is a form of end game. A simple way to say it is I agree, leveling while doing nothing is bad, if your leveling you should be doing something. But thats the extent Ill agree, keying is ok, GoV is ok, rest is fine, just not getting something for nothing. Now on the other hand I make 1 exception to that, which is FCs and their sort. You work for the money you have every reason to level a job while not playing because you did play for the time you had to obtain said money and thus earned it.

Also while you may not argue against Endgame directly let me remind you much of endgame would be even more impossible to do without everyone being so high of level so fast because it would limit job options and available players. VW is starting to die again on my server already, and I think if leveling wasn't how it is now, it would be even worse for it, not to mention Legion, Nyzul, and all of the like. The game is admittedly not for midgame anymore, endgame is all it is, and all it should probably be after 10 years.

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Maybe your definition of Endgame differs from mine, but the way I define it is "What you do after you hit level cap".

And by the by, just browsing ffxiclopedia doing some of my own NIN scroll quests, I happened on upon this:

Ninja: Doing it Right.

Which pretty much re-affirms everything I've said about the job.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Maybe your definition of Endgame differs from mine, but the way I define it is "What you do after you hit level cap".

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Yes much of Abyssea is done after cap. As I said as well, the game is now focused on endgame not midgame, which is leveling. Midgame is mostly dead, which is what bothers you. I understand that, but the game has been going 10 years, I think this is the reason endgame has been put on focus. Rather than trying to make new players go through from the start to end slowly they allow a fast progression to the end now so that you may begin endgame with the other players not to long after starting. By that I mean only a 1~3 months, not 8~12 months as before.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Yes much of Abyssea is done after cap. As I said as well, the game is now focused on endgame not midgame, which is leveling. Midgame is mostly dead, which is what bothers you. I understand that, but the game has been going 10 years, I think this is the reason endgame has been put on focus. Rather than trying to make new players go through from the start to end slowly they allow a fast progression to the end now so that you may begin endgame with the other players not to long after starting. By that I mean only a 1~3 months, not 8~12 months as before.

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Mid-game should not be dead. Level cap gear should not be the apex of progression. MMO developers seem to be moving in this direction, and that's fine if they want to take that developmental stance in order to appease these kinds of players for the sake of (potentially) fattening their wallets. If this is to be the case, then I only ask they stop misleading the rest of us and remove the acronym of "RPG" from the game's title.

And if anything, they should not have changed this game so drastically mid-run and let it die an honorable death.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

remove the acronym of "RPG" from the game's title.

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In an effort to prove a point I used Bing search(my commmon search engine)to look up what the definition of an RPG is, as you wish this not to be called a RPG due to the leveling being cut down. I will be listing the 1st 3 results, and their idea of what makes a game, a RPG.

In my 1st result I got this page. Now myself I saw it discribe not just RPGs, but many genres of games. But if you get to the main part of speaking about RPGs you find this paragraph...

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What is a Role Playing Game? Personally, I like to define a Role Playing Game as a game that MUST, ABSOLUTELY have three elements. One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. Two, it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). Three, it must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters. Given there are other elements of RPGs that I'll leave out because of their obvious nature, these are the elements that are required for a game to be labeled RPG.

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Now lets look at this list. We have the 1st thing that is required, "a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character" sounds alot like the races & job selection, so we have that. Next up is "it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics" we have alot of gear, and endgame is mostly about us getting said gear, so we seem to have that as well. Last is "It must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters" we have this, the interface that defines the game as a RPG. So the 1st of my 3 pages I will list/talk about, says this is in fact a RPG.

My 2nd result is none other than Wikipedia. Now while there is no clean cut guide lines that it gives, most of what is said implies that the main thing that makes a game a RPG, is a story, and that the player be a part of said story, and affecting it as a plot point. Spoilers inside of the quote box!

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In FFXI we are the main character through all story lines, we are there for the battle against the Zilart, in Tu'Lia, we fight by Prishe's side against Promathia, we stand up against the powers of Odin & Alexander, and we even fight for our worlds right to exist against Lady Lilith. Not to mention Shantotto's crazy incident, the Kupo d'Etat, and the Crystalline Prophecy, and we took up arms to fight a hoard in an alternate version of our own world, where we lost the battle of Promathia.

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We are very involved in the happenings in the story, and while we do not make choices that effect said story, we are still a part of it. Being a part of the story in such a way, I believe, qualifies FFXI as a RPG, by Wikipedia's definition.

The last result was very short, nothing as detailed as the others, but is a very clean and cut definition of RPG. Now the 1st is unrelated to FFXI, its related to PC terms, however the 2nd is...

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Short for role-playing game, it is a game genre where one or more players adopt a role and act it out in a virtual reality. Usually in an RPG game, you will set out on an adventure or quest, and multiplayer RPG games allows gamers to complete these quests with other gamers as allies over the Internet or as a LAN game.

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Now we have quests, and missions. We have adventures through these, and so this seems to also qualify FFXI, as a genuine RPG.

I state all of this because, FFXI is a RPG game, and a MMO, thus a MMORPG, and nothing should change that, or its title as one.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

In an effort to prove a point I used Bing search(my commmon search engine)to look up what the definition of an RPG is, as you wish this not to be called a RPG due to the leveling being cut down. I will be listing the 1st 3 results, and their idea of what makes a game, a RPG.

In my 1st result I got this page. Now myself I saw it discribe not just RPGs, but many genres of games. But if you get to the main part of speaking about RPGs you find this paragraph...Now lets look at this list. We have the 1st thing that is required, "a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character" sounds alot like the races & job selection, so we have that. Next up is "it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics" we have alot of gear, and endgame is mostly about us getting said gear, so we seem to have that as well. Last is "It must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters" we have this, the interface that defines the game as a RPG. So the 1st of my 3 pages I will list/talk about, says this is in fact a RPG.

My 2nd result is none other than Wikipedia. Now while there is no clean cut guide lines that it gives, most of what is said implies that the main thing that makes a game a RPG, is a story, and that the player be a part of said story, and affecting it as a plot point. Spoilers inside of the quote box! We are very involved in the happenings in the story, and while we do not make choices that effect said story, we are still a part of it. Being a part of the story in such a way, I believe, qualifies FFXI as a RPG, by Wikipedia's definition.

The last result was very short, nothing as detailed as the others, but is a very clean and cut definition of RPG. Now the 1st is unrelated to FFXI, its related to PC terms, however the 2nd is...Now we have quests, and missions. We have adventures through these, and so this seems to also qualify FFXI, as a genuine RPG.

I state all of this because, FFXI is a RPG game, and a MMO, thus a MMORPG, and nothing should change that, or its title as one.

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So essentially, you're saying they could remove experience points completely and begin the game at cap (remove level-based progression)? The first example seemed out-right a personal opinion, but I'll let it slide. Actually found the site you're referring to in my own search, btw.

Your second point sounds a lot like this: See First Paragraph.

While EXP and level-based progression might not define the genre exclusively, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find such a thing in a game that didn't claim to be an RPG.

Other links regarding the debate over the "true definition":

Inventory Management
Fantasy Character/World Interaction
Self-improvement by Proxy

"Commercial interest in Japanese role playing games steadily declined throughout the latter half of the 2000s, and critics generally considered newer entries in established franchises, such as Final Fantasy XIII and its sequel, to be inferior to their predecessors. Japanese game developer Hideo Kojima, the director of the Metal Gear Solid series of games, claimed that Japanese developers lacked the global outlook and modern technological feats to survive the industry and needed to catch up with Western developers."[270] (Quote pulled from this Wikipedia.)

Castlevania II had experience points and a leveling system. I would be hard pressed to call that an RPG. I'm sure if I cared I could remember other examples.

Oh, and The Legend of Zelda II had those same elements. It's a bit closer but I've never personally considered the Zelda games to be RPGs (I know many people will disagree, this is only a personal opinion).

After reading much of what you gave me (admittedly I have a memory problem, so my eyes may have gazed over things I do not recall) I did not see anything saying a RPG had to have leveling or exp at all in the game, for it to be a RPG. I will give you credit, most RPGs do feature it, so it is a very common trait. However these also list off many traits games hold so often they become a defining piece of the genre such as items, combat statistics, and story. However in none of these pages did I see it say that leveling itself was a defining factor in RPGs, rather stat progression is, and as I (and many others) have pointed out, endgame does fill this role very well. In fact I would actually say endgame is almost similar in a way because content does change in terms of difficulty, and thus you normally must complete one and attain gear to make another more likely or better your odds. Much the same as with leveling you can fight things at a lower level, but the higher level you are the better your chances of success. But this is simply my opinion on it.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

"Commercial interest in Japanese role playing games steadily declined throughout the latter half of the 2000s, and critics generally considered newer entries in established franchises, such as Final Fantasy XIII and its sequel, to be inferior to their predecessors. Japanese game developer Hideo Kojima, the director of the Metal Gear Solid series of games, claimed that Japanese developers lacked the global outlook and modern technological feats to survive the industry and needed to catch up with Western developers."[270] (Quote pulled from this Wikipedia.)

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I find this quote to be interesting. Final Fantasy XIII was complained about for the reason that it was to linear of a game, and while this is the case, it was mostly solved in the sequel, but not to the normal extent of a Final Fantasy game. But both of these gave leveling and experience point systems. While they may be seen as inferior to most fans when compared to other FF titles, I can not see leveling as much to do with it, as it featured the same type of progression, with little change.

It says that they need to catch up with western developers, which includes Blizzard, the makers of WoW. Now seeing as this is the case, I can understand why people make comparisons between the 2 in terms of leveling, however maybe this is an example of Japanese game devs making changes in how their games are to fit what apparently is considered "modern." Now this change is what you do not like, which is why I wonder why you gave this quote. It seems to show just why they would change the game's progression ideals so vastly, and would look to actually counter your argument on why to do this in my opinion as it shows just why they would, because they are doing it to be more modern with their game.

This is simply how I have seen it myself, I could be misinterpreting some parts, but this is my general ideal on it myself. But in the end I think it comes down to 1 thing, it seems many people have different ideas of what a RPG may be or contain. As such, we can not be sure of what SE's views on it are, or even if they are the ones who chose for it to be seen as a MMORPG. For this reason I think it is somewhat unreasonable to ask them to change which genre it is seen as, being their opinion on it may greatly differ, and they may not even be the ones who gave it such a title in the 1st place.

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

Castlevania II had experience points and a leveling system. I would be hard pressed to call that an RPG. I'm sure if I cared I could remember other examples.

Oh, and The Legend of Zelda II had those same elements. It's a bit closer but I've never personally considered the Zelda games to be RPGs (I know many people will disagree, this is only a personal opinion).

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Hmm~ not sure if Ratchet & Clank was ever claimed to be a RPG or not, but I know it also featured an experience point system. Not as traditional as leveling your character, but it leveled your HP & weapons through a similar method.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

It says that they need to catch up with western developers, which includes Blizzard, the makers of WoW. Now seeing as this is the case, I can understand why people make comparisons between the 2 in terms of leveling, however maybe this is an example of Japanese game devs making changes in how their games are to fit what apparently is considered "modern." Now this change is what you do not like, which is why I wonder why you gave this quote. It seems to show just why they would change the game's progression ideals so vastly, and would look to actually counter your argument on why to do this in my opinion as it shows just why they would, because they are doing it to be more modern with their game.

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Simply because it seems SE is following this trend of Western development because, for some reason, Japanese RPG's that I grew up with are falling out of favor. And to me, it's because the common western gamer is, or has become, only interested in bigger/better/faster/more. They're selling out and actually collaborating with Blizzard on FFXIV (request the source if you want, I don't have it to hand). Some things I used to know and love in the gaming world are apparently becoming extinct and I don't like that one bit.

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

Castlevania II had experience points and a leveling system. I would be hard pressed to call that an RPG. I'm sure if I cared I could remember other examples.

Oh, and The Legend of Zelda II had those same elements. It's a bit closer but I've never personally considered the Zelda games to be RPGs (I know many people will disagree, this is only a personal opinion).

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Good show. Though they did blur the lines in the title, passing them off as Action-RPG's, which is a more appropriate title. Funny thing is, if you subtracted the EXP system from the game, they might have gone with simply 'Action' or 'Adventure'.

Change happens, get used to it.

Personally I don't care for western style "sandbox" RPGs so I don't play them. There are still plenty of traditional JRPGs out there, I guarantee you haven't played them all even for the current generation of systems, let alone the availability of classic games as downloads.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Simply because it seems SE is following this trend of Western development because, for some reason, Japanese RPG's that I grew up with are falling out of favor. And to me, it's because the common western gamer is, or has become, only interested in bigger/better/faster/more. They're selling out and actually collaborating with Blizzard on FFXIV (request the source if you want, I don't have it to hand). Some things I used to know and love in the gaming world are apparently becoming extinct and I don't like that one bit.

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I will agree that MMOs are going this way. However Single-Player games are not, there are still many various SPRPGs out there which hold true to the old JRPG format. Also some companies are making remakes of older games, and while it is not out yet, I myself heavily await info on FFX:HD, as it is one of my favorite games of all time.

I think the reason MMOs are becoming more fast paced however is because people play MMOs to play with each other. If a new player starts a game far after everyone else (in this game for instance) it can leave you feeling left out, leaving you to solo or something of the sort, which takes away the exact feeling you play a MMO for. However with fast progression as we have it now, you can see that many people go to Abyssea, I have met many good friends in worm parties for instance, and it becomes a way for you to quickly get new players to a point in the game where many others are. Now this is my opinion on it, but it seems to be the general idea, and I think its why everyone seems to oppose you so much.

How old are you really eyeballed? I'm still in my late teen years and would do anything not to see FFXI go. I started playing when I was ten when I told my parents I really wanted to try it. And they made my brother let me have a character; two characters that I played with when he wasn't home. So I've been around for some time, a little back to when you probably were too. I was a 62 WHM and a 54 THF when I finally stopped those characters. But then I got my own XBOX and my own account and made Komori. And now it's level 99 on 17 jobs. (SAM49, COR12, RNG7) right now I'm grinding voidwatch for gear as well as money and doing magians to try to further my character.

I leveled all of the jobs because I wanted to be able to be useful in any situation my friends or linkshell needed me. But I really love DRK, DRG, BLU, THF, PUP, WHM, BLM the most. But I wouldn't even have that band of levels if it hadn't been for abyssea because I really wasn't going to level anymore after BLM, BLU and perhaps PUP before it came out. But anyway, tell me why it's acceptable for you to go around and stamp your feet because the game has changed? Why is the money you give SE every month somehow better than mine that they use your ideals and ignore the rest of us?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I will agree that MMOs are going this way. However Single-Player games are not, there are still many various SPRPGs out there which hold true to the old JRPG format. Also some companies are making remakes of older games, and while it is not out yet, I myself heavily await info on FFX:HD, as it is one of my favorite games of all time.

I think the reason MMOs are becoming more fast paced however is because people play MMOs to play with each other. If a new player starts a game far after everyone else (in this game for instance) it can leave you feeling left out, leaving you to solo or something of the sort, which takes away the exact feeling you play a MMO for. However with fast progression as we have it now, you can see that many people go to Abyssea, I have met many good friends in worm parties for instance, and it becomes a way for you to quickly get new players to a point in the game where many others are. Now this is my opinion on it, but it seems to be the general idea, and I think its why everyone seems to oppose you so much.

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QFT.

Again I say, it's "Join us, or die"?

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Originally Posted by Komori

How old are you really eyeballed? I'm still in my late teen years and would do anything not to see FFXI go. I started playing when I was ten when I told my parents I really wanted to try it. And they made my brother let me have a character; two characters that I played with when he wasn't home. So I've been around for some time, a little back to when you probably were too. I was a 62 WHM and a 54 THF when I finally stopped those characters. But then I got my own XBOX and my own account and made Komori. And now it's level 99 on 17 jobs. (SAM49, COR12, RNG7) right now I'm grinding voidwatch for gear as well as money and doing magians to try to further my character.

I leveled all of the jobs because I wanted to be able to be useful in any situation my friends or linkshell needed me. But I really love DRK, DRG, BLU, THF, PUP, WHM, BLM the most. But I wouldn't even have that band of levels if it hadn't been for abyssea because I really wasn't going to level anymore after BLM, BLU and perhaps PUP before it came out. But anyway, tell me why it's acceptable for you to go around and stamp your feet because the game has changed? Why is the money you give SE every month somehow better than mine that they use your ideals and ignore the rest of us?

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I'm in my 30's. My money is no better than your money, and by that rationale, I have an equally proportionate voice in what I like or dislike about this game.

Your free to voice your dislike for the game.

What your not free to do is voice them to change it to your own personal preference.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

QFT.

Again I say, it's "Join us, or die"?

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But as I said, the reason most play a MMO is for playing with other players, this exact thing is more easily done when doing exactly what is being done now, making endgame the main focus and thus a easier place for people to gather & work together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Komori

Your free to voice your dislike for the game.

What your not free to do is voice them to change it to your own personal preference.

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This statement works both ways, you realize? If you were to replace 'change' with 'revert', which is actually what I'm asking for, then you might better see what I'm saying. Somewhere, someone complained and moaned enough that the game was too slow or punishing or what-have-you, but their personal preference got my game changed into something I didn't like. Follow?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

But as I said, the reason most play a MMO is for playing with other players, this exact thing is more easily done when doing exactly what is being done now, making endgame the main focus and thus a easier place for people to gather & work together.

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I'm not saying your dilemma is imaginary, but I've never encountered this problem of "not being able to play with my friends". I assume you're talking about your real life friends?