[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

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So basically you want the exact same outcome (everyone can use all the merit WS at full power), but with just enough difference in how it is implemented to make it look like you won the argument. Fine by me. You win.

You hear that SE? Alhanelem Wants to use all the merit WS at full strength too now. Go get it done.

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No.
1) I don't give a rat's behind about "winning" (though, you sure seem to the way you've been fighting against me)
2) You don't understand. See below for how this is not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

So you want to be able to change your merit configuration without having to re-obtain merits, which would result in basically the exact same outcome as simply removing the caps entirely except that STR/DEX/VIT/Ect and Job Specific Merits would remain the same and you'd have to put more work into changing things around.

-_-;

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It's not anywhere near the same as removing the caps because you don't have everything all at once. It merely cuts down on the hassle of changing your mind about a decision. Choice still matters, but you don't have to worry as much about regretting a decision you made, because you can reasonably change it (Where you can modify merit points, that is). You'd have to put LESS work into changing things around vs not doing this at all, because without these changes, you'd have to go spend a few hours or whatever getting all the merits back.

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

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But with so little difference between 1 point and 5, I really don't get the extreme issue people have with this... but it's a symptom of larger attitude problem in the playerbase...

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Well most of the people here would have you believe that those few stat mod percentage points and the bit of extra damage they offer are critical and essential to winning anything when they really aren't.

SE has basically made their decision about how the merit point system works. They're going to raise the limits when they plan to raise them and neither I nor anyone here is likely to get what they want. In the end this isn't the terrible disaster of a situation that people are making it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

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Ok. Even though my Blm having +15 Str does diddly squat, or my Whm having Dex +15, or my War having Mnd +15, or my Blu having Scythe skill +16, or my Smn having Dark Magic +16, etc. You get the point. I'll relent though, it's unbalanced, it's unholy, it's a terrible idea.

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You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

Well most of the people here would have you believe that those few stat mod percentage points and the bit of extra damage they offer are critical and essential to winning anything when they really aren't.

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...Ok? It's not balanced, it's not fair, it's not with the role playing, it's too much hassle/work, it's not needed, it ruins my uniqueness, it prolly stole your lunch money, and it's most certainly going to cause the downfall of the game.

You're right, there is no winning or losing here, it's not about that, it's about talking in as wide of a circle as possible to make our points the last post. I get it.

For reals though, you even relented and said "oh, make em easily switchable so we can have whatever we want/need on any given job!" Not an attack, but do you really not see the terribly annoying flaw present with that idea?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

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I make that face because you seem not to even understand what you're really saying... You just said something and then you're going to argue my interpretation of what you said is wrong, even though it's accurate and I'm going to tell you how after this response to this stupid part of your post so that you can likely just argue with me yet again about the very same thing.

Now before I start to reply, I'm quoting myself, easier to see what I'm talking about that way.

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

So you want to be able to change your merit configuration without having to re-obtain merits, which would result in basically the exact same outcome as simply removing the caps entirely except that STR/DEX/VIT/Ect and Job Specific Merits would remain the same and you'd have to put more work into changing things around.

-_-;

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It's not anywhere near the same as removing the caps because you don't have everything all at once. It merely cuts down on the hassle of changing your mind about a decision. Choice still matters, but you don't have to worry as much about regretting a decision you made, because you can reasonably change it (Where you can modify merit points, that is). You'd have to put LESS work into changing things around vs not doing this at all, because without these changes, you'd have to go spend a few hours or whatever getting all the merits back.

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This is the exact reason I said that you'd have to put more work into changing things around than if the cap were removed entirely. Less than currently, yes, that I think is obvious, but it'd be more work than if we removed the caps all together. Why do I say your idea and removing the caps are almost exactly the same? Well lets look at your next part of your post.

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You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

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Cutting this down a bit.

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You don't have +12 to every single stat

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12 to every single stat is something I said yours would be different from. Listing that only makes it seem as though you didn't understand that part of my post or you somehow skipped over it.

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maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once.

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Yes, that's a difference. Maxing out every skill, Other, or WS, means nothing however. Why? Name me a situation in which a player needs more than 7 capped Combat Skills, more than 6 capped Magic Skills, more than two of the Other(Enmity +5, Enmity -5, Enemy Crit Rate -5, Crit Rate +5, Spell Int -5) and/or more than three different Merit WSs. Give me that magical situation where a player needs all of that and I'll agree that your idea is different outside of the STR/DEX/VIT/Ect stats and Job Specific Merits.

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You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

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Give me this power and you may as well uncap every category because it won't change much of how I function at all.

I'd go to an event as a mage, INT, MND, my core magic stats, my job's melee weapon, EVA, Shield, Parry, Spell Int, and - Enmity.

I'd go to an event as a melee, STR, DEX, my primary weapon, whatever magic I might need, EVA, Parry, Crit Rate, and - Enmity.

I'd go to an event as a tank, DEX, VIT, my primary weapon, whatever magic I might need, EVA, Shield, Parry, Enemy Crit, and + Enmity.

In each of these scenarios I'm using a max of 2/2 stats, 4/7 Combat Skills, 0~6 Magic Skills, and 2 Others. Others could be pushed further, the only one I see any use in going above the current cap and even then 4 would be the max any job would ever need. At the very least you're looking at having to find a job that uses 4 types of weapons or 7 magic skill categories for an event, I can't think of a single one.



Your solution is no different than uncapping, except it hurts jobs more by restricting abilities in the Job Specific category like RDM whose spells are locked behind a stupid system meant for customization that provides next to none, the fact it requires more work on the part of the player when it comes to changing jobs, and the fact it doesn't let us uncap STR/DEX/VIT/Ect. That said, feel free Alhanelem to correct me on how I'm wrong, argue with me the semantics of how I'm incorrect in all of this and how your idea is different and would allow for customization, give me such an example in which those restrictions listed above can't be dealt with within your idea. If you can't do that, then admit your idea's similarities and stop acting as though it's so different that while our idea would somehow break the game, yours wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

huge pile of sarcasm

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If you can't reply in a serious / civil tone, don't reply at all. I'm really sick of your rude behaivor.

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For reals though, you even relented and said "oh, make em easily switchable so we can have whatever we want/need on any given job!" Not an attack, but do you really not see the terribly annoying flaw present with that idea?

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I would consider uncapping all categories a much more significant flaw.

Most people - that is, everyone outside of the hardcore elitists- aren't going to feel the need to constantly change their merits around. They'll only bother to change them in cases where it really makes a difference (though I have argued that it usually doesn't matter much very often). For those of you who feel the need to min-max everything you do, I can see how it would be annoying, but it's still far better than having to farm tens of thousands of XP over again- and I consider making merits easier to change a far more likely thing to actually happen than a total unrestriction of all merit point categories. If they thought that was a good idea they would have done that a long time ago. Heck, actually, the Job Point system was meant to cater to the minmaxers- it lets you get everything, assuming you have the time and patience to do so.

Thus we have:

Merit Points - Customization system- doesn't let you have everything at once, moderate time investment
Job Points - Pure progression system - lets you get everything, extensive time investment

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Yes, that's a difference. Maxing out every skill, Other, or WS, means nothing however. Why? Name me a situation in which a player needs more than 7 capped Combat Skills

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I mentioned how this favors certain jobs more than others-This is because certain jobs can use more of the WS. The heavy melees, which can use a number of different weapons and the skills for them, benefit notably more from an uncapping than light melee/ranged/support/mages. The latter jobs might only ever use one or two of the WS, so they gain less advantage out of such a change versus say warrior or DRK. (as an aside, this general discrepanacy is one of the things that annoyed me about voidwatch- something that was intended to include more jobs failed to do so). I suppose you can argue that this is more a flaw in the combat system itself than the merit system, however uncapping merits would certainly not help that situation.

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except it hurts jobs more by restricting abilities in the Job Specific category like RDM whose spells are locked behind a stupid system meant for customization that provides next to none

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They most indeed do provide customization. It's not my fault if a lot of people copy eachother and ignore it. In some cases it's SE's fault for not balancing the different merit options well- Something I would agree they should address if they want these categories to serve their intended purpose. That said, you still don't have 100% of all people picking the same Job merit combinations.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No.
1) I don't give a rat's behind about "winning" (though, you sure seem to the way you've been fighting against me)
2) You don't understand. See below for how this is not the same thing.


It's not anywhere near the same as removing the caps because you don't have everything all at once. It merely cuts down on the hassle of changing your mind about a decision. Choice still matters, but you don't have to worry as much about regretting a decision you made, because you can reasonably change it (Where you can modify merit points, that is). You'd have to put LESS work into changing things around vs not doing this at all, because without these changes, you'd have to go spend a few hours or whatever getting all the merits back.

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

Well most of the people here would have you believe that those few stat mod percentage points and the bit of extra damage they offer are critical and essential to winning anything when they really aren't.

SE has basically made their decision about how the merit point system works. They're going to raise the limits when they plan to raise them and neither I nor anyone here is likely to get what they want. In the end this isn't the terrible disaster of a situation that people are making it out to be.

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You're arguing semantics. In your scenario, I still go to every event with the max stats for the job I'm on. The only difference is that in my scenario, I have to merit them all or choose which ones not to merit. In yours, You just have to have enough merits to move around.

Yours actually makes customization less likely. I have other stuff to spend merit points on. I'm probably not going to merit CHR or MND right away. But, If I can just swap out my strength and DEX merits whenever I wanna play bard, well.. I'll always have em.

My way... My bard will probably not have CHR merits for a very long time because I'd rather spend them on things like armor upgrade fights. Customization yo. My bard will be mad unique.

And I just want to merit all the weapon skills. Not sure how this turned into "merit all the things...".

I honestly don't care how I end up getting all my stuff merited. As long as it happens. If you would prefer that I have to move a bunch of merits around every time I job change rather than just meriting them all, well that's annoying yet better than the current setup.

Wait, so in either scenario are we saying that two players on the same job will bring the exact same optimal merits to the event?

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Originally Posted by detlef

Wait, so in either scenario are we saying that two players on the same job will bring the exact same optimal merits to the event?

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Yes, Unless they are too lazy to swap them and / or Alhan's scenario makes swapping them a pain in the arse.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I mentioned how this favors certain jobs more than others-This is because certain jobs can use more of the WS. The heavy melees, which can use a number of different weapons and the skills for them, benefit notably more from an uncapping than light melee/ranged/support/mages. The latter jobs might only ever use one or two of the WS, so they gain less advantage out of such a change versus say warrior or DRK. (as an aside, this general discrepanacy is one of the things that annoyed me about voidwatch- something that was intended to include more jobs failed to do so). I suppose you can argue that this is more a flaw in the combat system itself than the merit system, however uncapping merits would certainly not help that situation.

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I say again, name me a situation in which any job needs more than 3 of those WSs. I'm not saying that they can use them, but that they would use them. Neither VW nor any other event in this game would you see any DD job use more than 3 of these WSs in any event that I can possibly think of. At most I can come up with 3 needed for an event and that's only if SAM can use Req, which I don't think they can, in which case they might need Apex, Req, and Shoha. In either case I still present you the challenge of naming a situation in which a player would use more than 3 of these WSs without being able to return to their room. Name one, and you'll have some ground to stand on with that part of your argument, till then you've none.

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They most indeed do provide customization. It's not my fault if a lot of people copy eachother and ignore it. In some cases it's SE's fault for not balancing the different merit options well- Something I would agree they should address if they want these categories to serve their intended purpose. That said, you still don't have 100% of all people picking the same Job merit combinations.

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Ok, perhaps I should've been more clear. There are good choices, ok choices, and terrible choices. Most jobs have 2~3 good, 1~2 ok, and 1~2 terrible. There are hardly any jobs where it's truly a hard choice of what to pick to merit for a job. You can continue to argue semantics of there being customization and us simply ignoring it in favor of not sucking and talk about how they should improve the choices not remove them but really it's just a pointless argument. The system isn't a good one, and you're saying they should create multiple powerful abilities for jobs with the complete intention of locking half of them behind merits for 'customization' reasons, sorry but that's stupid when so many jobs are already unbalanced and it'd only make it harder to make up for those differences.

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There are good choices, ok choices, and terrible choices. Most jobs have 2~3 good, 1~2 ok, and 1~2 terrible.

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I really don't disagree with you, but that's a defect of the particular bonuses/abilities, not of the merit system as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I really don't disagree with you, but that's a defect of the particular bonuses/abilities, not of the merit system as a whole.

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Well, provided we have boiled this argument down to this, I think we're at the dead end. You don't mind the system as it is in a customization type of idea and I'm the opposite and see it as a horrible idea. My job is one of those which currently have the most difficult of choices with spells such as Paralyze II and Slow II as well as Dia III all being in my merits. I wouldn't budge on this part of the issue no matter how long we continued it as it simply wouldn't matter to me how much you change other jobs or not since my categories wouldn't likely change. That said, I understand you want to keep that same system we have now with alterations that would leave almost nothing intact of a customization type of system outside of this itself, which means you'd not budge on this issue either most likely.

In the end continuing this debate with you on the topic would lead to circles and no real result probably so I think it best to leave it at this one final thing.

Making it so we can cap every combat skill and magic skill won't change anything from your idea, and will be just what many of us are asking for, so do that at very least as well as Other. If it must be done, leave STR/DEX/VIT capped as well as job specifics, I'll hate it personally but it's progress more so than we have now so I'll take it. It's ground on what we want, works with what you're saying you'd prefer, and hurts no one at all in doing so.