To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Here it's the archaic magic skilling system at fault. I've leveled White Mage the old fashioned way, back when people still partied in Whitegate areas. My healing skill only just recently broke 300, and my other magic skills are even lower, despite the spam. My Ninjutsu isn't that much higher than 200 despite constant spam.

Your arguments are invalid. Again.

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You're seriously trying to tell me that a Lv99 Ninja should not be expected to have capped Ninjutsu on a Lv40 capped BCNM? And this is your defense? Ha!

More like, "don't get mad when you lose an orb because you suggested doing a BCNM40 that wasn't Royal Jelly."

Also, yes, I would expect a NIN I was bringing to UO to have capped Ninjutsu for level 40. However, I would ask first, because I know that leveling Ninjutsu is a huge pain in the ass and has always been.

If you were justified in taking Random Shout NIN's capped skill as an article of faith in any way at all, it's that it's way more reasonable to expect him to have capped Ninjutsu now than it was back when people were doing UO pretty regularly. Care to hazard a guess as to why?

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

skipped over that...

skill level would still be irrelevant on the ninjutsu. just sounds like someone who burned it up for procs.
also, don't go on capped fights with /sh's, they usually fail.

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Do you know what the strategy is for this particular BCNM? It doesn't sound like you do.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

More like, "don't get mad when you lose an orb because you suggested doing a BCNM40 that wasn't Royal Jelly."

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What's wrong with UO? PCC; 2x Ni; Phalanx; Refresh, etc.

Nobody needs PCC. Royal Jelly has the same scrolls and is basically idiot-proof.

EDIT: Alright, I'll take that back. But who the hell are these morons still paying 400k for peacock charm?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Nobody needs PCC. Royal Jelly has the same scrolls and is basically idiot-proof.

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Nobody needs 400-500k? Nobody needs two scrolls instead of just one Ni? Woo, the logic here escapes me.

RJ can be done easier with two DRGs than UO can be done with 3 of anything. Quicker turn-around for multiple runs. Fail once in either and the difference becomes moot.

I'm not the one complaining that a terrible NIN almost cost me multiple orbs, man.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

You're seriously trying to tell me that a Lv99 Ninja should not be expected to have capped Ninjutsu on a Lv40 capped BCNM? And this is your defense? Ha!

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In my defense you didn't exactly make yourself clear when you we're talking about ninjutsu skill levels not being at cap for another player. I still stand by my observation that the skilling system needs a complete overhaul.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

RJ can be done easier with two DRGs than UO can be done with 3 of anything. Quicker turn-around for multiple runs. Fail once in either and the difference becomes moot.

I'm not the one complaining that a terrible NIN almost cost me multiple orbs, man.

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Apparently you've never done UO with 3 BLM. Stand in one spot and spam -ga. Can't get any easier than that. And it could have been just the same on your DRG DRG RDM Royal Jelly with a Red Mage that can't stick bind/gravity. Also, he would have only cost me a single orb, man.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Nobody needs 400-500k? Nobody needs two scrolls instead of just one Ni? Woo, the logic here escapes me.

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sounds liek you need a more reliant way to make gil without wasting resources, or relying on others.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

sounds liek you need a more reliant way to make gil without wasting resources, or relying on others.

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Sounds like you need a new argument. I suppose your next piece of infinite wisdom is that I throw away my seals, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

In my defense you didn't exactly make yourself clear when you we're talking about ninjutsu skill levels not being at cap for another player. I still stand by my observation that the skilling system needs a complete overhaul.

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When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care. The other Ninja who wasn't ultra-gimp finished off his mob and had to help him through the other half of his. Almost cost us the run 3x over, if we hadn't had to carry him.

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I'm sorry, I did assume that people were aware this was in fact a BCNM 40, which means it is capped at Lv40. I would assume that anyone playing the game for any substantial period of time would know this one by now, along with RJ. What did you assume I was talking about?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Apparently you've never done UO with 3 BLM. Stand in one spot and spam -ga. Can't get any easier than that. And it could have been just the same on your DRG DRG RDM Royal Jelly with a Red Mage that can't stick bind/gravity. Also, he would have only cost me a single orb, man.

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You don't need a third person for RJ with two DRGs.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

skill level would still be irrelevant on the ninjutsu.

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Actually no, Under Observation is a BCNM in which you fight 3 Hecteyes. They use a paralyze gaze often so doing a normal fight against them is bad. To make things worse its 3 people only, and 1 of them is tougher than the others. A normal strat for this fight is to have a RDM kite the large mob while the other 2 are either NIN, BLU, or BLM, and nuke the smaller ones to death with magic/ninjutsu. This is why skill does matter for this occasion, you need the skill for the magic damage the NIN is expected to use for fighting, if the NIN has low skill or is meleeing chances of failing rise due to killing slower, or being paralyzed for a good duration of the fight.

Just pointing it out, in either case, should probably pay more attention to what you are replying to. I mean no offense, just if you are skimming posts then replying wrongly it looks kinda bad for both you & the others who are trying to make a point, because then people become like Rosina and think everyone is just trying to pick on them for no reason other than to be mean.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Sounds like you need a new argument. I suppose your next piece of infinite wisdom is that I throw away my seals, yeah?

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Please stop picking fights with every respondent to this thread and take advice or leave it.
And throwing away seals is stupid; just save them up for BB items, by not using them for the chance of a chance that you'll get phalanx or utsu: ni.
I'd focus your in-game time at hitting 99 on a job that can farm dynamis (preferably solo) and gearing that, instead of PUGs for BCNMs.
But you have free will and you decide, just know that we are pointing you in more profitable directions.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Umm~ guys... Under Observation is a level 40 BCNM, I have no idea what level would have to do with this, or what your talking about when you say a KS99, because unless my eyes just avoided it, nothing was talked about outside of UO which is a BCNM40.

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I was just assuming that level 61 rdm didn't know / didn't discuss the strategy with the group that she didn't form (funny because I haven't seen a shout for that in probably a year) and she says she always forms her own groups. The funny thing is that I used to do that BCNM a lot for gil and I saw a lot of groups wipe to it back in the "good ole days". She's trying to blame abyssea for the guy sucking, but the truth is that he had to level to 30 without skilling before he got into abyssea. So at most you can blame abyssea for 10 levels of ninja skill ups.That shouldn't screw up a UO run, unless everyone else on the run sucks too.

TLDR; from reading her previous posts, I find her highly suspect and would likely trust a level 99 burned nin over her on red mage.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I'd rather have gone to bed without running it. As well, I have a little thing called patience, which for many of you I strongly assume is a foreign concept.

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Yes, doing nothing is super fun and patience is what people should need in a video game. /sarcasm I'll personally save that patience for the DMV or the line at the bank where it is rightfully expected, not in my entertainment. You will get no credit for work ethics in a video game from me. I have a real job for that sort of thing.

Have you ever tried FFXIAH.com? They have a jeuno shout feature where you can just sit in jeuno and watch the shouts. It's just like old ffxi, only you don't have to pay a fee. You should just do that. We need more of that in the game. Or better yet, you can pay me for a game service where I provide you no entertainment and we both win :)

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Actually no, Under Observation is a BCNM in which you fight 3 Hecteyes. They use a paralyze gaze often so doing a normal fight against them is bad. To make things worse its 3 people only, and 1 of them is tougher than the others. A normal strat for this fight is to have a RDM kite the large mob while the other 2 are either NIN, BLU, or BLM, and nuke the smaller ones to death with magic/ninjutsu. This is why skill does matter for this occasion, you need the skill for the magic damage the NIN is expected to use for fighting, if the NIN has low skill or is meleeing chances of failing rise due to killing slower, or being paralyzed for a good duration of the fight.

Just pointing it out, in either case, should probably pay more attention to what you are replying to. I mean no offense, just if you are skimming posts then replying wrongly it looks kinda bad for both you & the others who are trying to make a point, because then people become like Rosina and think everyone is just trying to pick on them for no reason other than to be mean.

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Response.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

You don't need a third person for RJ with two DRGs.

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There we go.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I'm sorry, I did assume that people were aware this was in fact a BCNM 40, which means it is capped at Lv40. I would assume that anyone playing the game for any substantial period of time would know this one by now, along with RJ. What did you assume I was talking about?

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I didn't assume anything because this is the first time hearing of Under Observation, whereas I have done Royal Jelly hundreds of times. Based upon the description I read on it it seems like something you don't have to try very hard to fail at and still has nothing to do with how you got your levels. The two things are entirely unrelated.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

Response.



There we go.

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I'm not sure how Royal Jellys has anything to do with UO when the subject was about a gimp NIN being the cause of a potential failure. The point of a NIN having low skills was somewhat valid. Only to the point the low skills is what caused it, not abyssea, nor GoV. I was and am simply attempting to point out that it was kinda stupid you 2 seemed to make comments based on reading the post only partly and skipping over the actual BCNM in question, or how to do it. Also from my experience, UO has had better drops for me than RJ, however this is of little relevance, if you are disputing the difference between why to do certain ones, I myself always do UO with 2BLUs & 1RDM, because there is better chances for drops, or even 2 rare drops.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Sounds like you need a new argument. I suppose your next piece of infinite wisdom is that I throw away my seals, yeah?

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While the arguments against you are becoming increasingly retarded, the reason for that is not that you're right but because you refuse to accept the majority's opinion and call it a day. From that people conclude a lack of insight and intelligence on your part, which people would normally brush off with some sarcastic and vaguely insulting comments. However, your stubborness in this regard makes them increasingly desperate and as such they tend to lower their standards to deal with someone like you. That, sadly, leads to a lack of proper arguments and ad hominem attacks (despite some of them being justified, but still not a pretty sight).

The only one argument people need against you is that your suggestion would be infringing on their ability to enjoy the game. Your method would ruin a big part of the game for a majority of players, and that's why it shouldn't happen. There's nothing at all you can say against that.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

Please stop picking fights with every respondent to this thread and take advice or leave it.
And throwing away seals is stupid; just save them up for BB items, by not using them for the chance of a chance that you'll get phalanx or utsu: ni.
I'd focus your in-game time at hitting 99 on a job that can farm dynamis (preferably solo) and gearing that, instead of PUGs for BCNMs.
But you have free will and you decide, just know that we are pointing you in more profitable directions.

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I'm trying to be nice. Really. Black Belt items are from Kindred Seal runs, if I remember correctly. We're talking about a BCNM/BSNM, which is commonly known to require Beastmen Seals. And I'll ask again, do you suggest I throw out said seals, as they are obviously worthless?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I was just assuming that level 61 rdm didn't know / didn't discuss the strategy with the group that she didn't form (funny because I haven't seen a shout for that in probably a year) and she says she always forms her own groups. The funny thing is that I used to do that BCNM a lot for gil and I saw a lot of groups wipe to it back in the "good ole days". She's trying to blame abyssea for the guy sucking, but the truth is that he had to level to 30 without skilling before he got into abyssea. So at most you can blame abyssea for 10 levels of ninja skill ups.That shouldn't screw up a UO run, unless everyone else on the run sucks too.

TLDR; from reading her previous posts, I find her highly suspect and would likely trust a level 99 burned nin over her on red mage.



Yes, doing nothing is super fun and patience is what people should need in a video game. /sarcasm I'll personally save that patience for the DMV or the line at the bank where it is rightfully expected, not in my entertainment. You will get no credit for work ethics in a video game from me. I have a real job for that sort of thing.

Have you ever tried FFXIAH.com? They have a jeuno shout feature where you can just sit in jeuno and watch the shouts. It's just like old ffxi, only you don't have to pay a fee. You should just do that. We need more of that in the game. Or better yet, you can pay me for a game service where I provide you no entertainment and we both win :)

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This is so full of holes I'm not even going to bother. Meh.

You can convert seals now; 3 of any 1 type to 1 of any other.

If you have a solid regular BCNM40 group it's worth hanging on to Beastmen's, but otherwise KSNM99's where it's at.

Not that there's really any reason you'd know this, of course, but the guy who does the exchanges stands right next to Shami so if you're doing a lot of BCNM40s you'd have probably figured this out by accident.

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I'm not sure how Royal Jellys has anything to do with UO when the subject was about a gimp NIN being the cause of a potential failure.

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At the risk of glibness, it was the decision to do Under Observation rather than Royal Jelly that was the cause of a potential failure.

I think it's pretty self-evident that if you decide to put people in situations where they are more likely to fail than other, equally-productive situations, you must accept responsibility for when they ultimately fail even if there's a chance they (or a more competent somebody else) might not have, but I've met a lot of MBAs who can't wrap their heads around this so I'll try not to judge FFXI players for not getting it either.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

The only one argument people need against you is that your suggestion would be infringing on their ability to enjoy the game. Your method would ruin a big part of the game for a majority of players, and that's why it shouldn't happen. There's nothing at all you can say against that.

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There shouldn't be anything to be said, but that was true 30 pages ago and somehow this thread is still here.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

This is so full of holes I'm not even going to bother. Meh.

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About as many holes as your "I didn't realize that the ninja who didn't have Utsusemi: Ni yet might be a gimp" story.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I'm trying to be nice. Really. Black Belt items are from Kindred Seal runs, if I remember correctly. We're talking about a BCNM/BSNM, which is commonly known to require Beastmen Seals. And I'll ask again, do you suggest I throw out said seals, as they are obviously worthless?

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This page should assist you.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

At the risk of glibness, it was the decision to do Under Observation rather than Royal Jelly that was the cause of a potential failure.

I think it's pretty self-evident that if you decide to put people in situations where they are more likely to fail than other, equally-productive situations, you must accept responsibility for when they ultimately fail even if there's a chance they (or a more competent somebody else) might not have, but I've met a lot of MBAs who can't wrap their heads around this so I'll try not to judge FFXI players for not getting it either.

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I'm speechless. I didn't "put" this guy anywhere. He joined knowing full well what was expected of him. He was even asked if he knew the setup/strategy, which was affirmed. What in God's name are you talking about??! You're not even entertaining the issue we're talking about.

Sure you did. You decided to shout for Under Observation, which is substantially more difficult than a similarly-situated BCNM with roughly equivalent rewards. Having done so, you lost.

This does not necessarily mean you shouldn't have done UO rather than RJ, but you absolutely shouldn't be coming here to blame book-burning and Abyssea and God knows what else for something that was ultimately your decision and thus your responsibility.

This is called "leadership".

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I'm speechless. I didn't "put" this guy anywhere. He joined knowing full well what was expected of him. He was even asked if he knew the setup/strategy, which was affirmed. What in God's name are you talking about??! You're not even entertaining the issue we're talking about.

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You have a situation where you went into a BCNM with a total stranger whose skills and abilities are unknown to you and the fight is more likely to wind up in a failure than another, easier fight. All this for an extra 400k and a useless necklace?

There's a failure here alright, and it has nothing to do with the current leveling system.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care. The other Ninja who wasn't ultra-gimp finished off his mob and had to help him through the other half of his. Almost cost us the run 3x over, if we hadn't had to carry him.

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So, one NIN is bad and the world is ending? Ok...

You know there were loads and loads of bad and mediocre players back when the game was "hard" and leveling took ages. There were people who sucked and cost people wins, gil, and XP back then too. If the old system was so much better at training players than the current one, how do you explain that? Shouldn't the majority of players have been highly skilled killing machines ready to take on any challenge? They weren't though. If the system was so great, why did it fail so many people?

In their defense I'm not reading any of eye's posts as they hurt my brain too much to bother, I've only read the responses to them and am able to get the gist of what s/he is saying enough so that I feel no need to cause myself brain damage.

Also I tend to overlook double/triple posters, at least rosina has a semi valid excuse(only very marginally...)

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Sure you did. You decided to shout for Under Observation, which is substantially more difficult than a similarly-situated BCNM with roughly equivalent rewards. Having done so, you lost.

This does not necessarily mean you shouldn't have done UO rather than RJ, but you absolutely shouldn't be coming here to blame book-burning and Abyssea and God knows what else for something that was ultimately your decision and thus your responsibility.

This is called "leadership".

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

You have a situation where you went into a BCNM with a total stranger whose skills and abilities are unknown to you and the fight is more likely to wind up in a failure than another, easier fight. All this for an extra 400k and a useless necklace?

There's a failure here alright, and it has nothing to do with the current leveling system.

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In case you both missed it, this isn't about the title of a BCNM, the jobs used in said BCNM, or the drops found in that BCNM. And as such, we can move the discussion back on track with my original point being that said participant took up the responsibility offered to him knowing full well what was to be expected of him and his character's abilities. What you two are proposing is it's my fault he wasn't prepared, and/or that this level of un-preparedness should have somehow been expected.

I don't know about you guys, but once upon a time, I only had to ask if members were familiar with the strategy of the run - not if one of my members' A-skills was severely under-skilled. But, here we are no less; The lot of you defending your stance at any cost. Quite a shame.

And Trisscar, just FYI, the Peacock Charm is completely sell-able and is far from the term 'useless'. How long have you been playing this game again?

Scaevola, just out of curiosity, what set-up did you normally run Under Observation with and why?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

In case you both missed it, this isn't about the title of a BCNM, the jobs used in said BCNM, or the drops found in that BCNM. And as such, we can move the discussion back on track with my original point being that said participant took up the responsibility offered to him knowing full well what was to be expected of him and his character's abilities. What you two are proposing is it's my fault he wasn't prepared, and/or that this level of un-preparedness should have somehow been expected.

I don't know about you guys, but once upon a time, I only had to ask if members were familiar with the strategy of the run - not if one of my members' A-skills was severely under-skilled. But, here we are no less; The lot of you defending your stance at any cost. Quite a shame.

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So the ninja was not at fault for lying about his skill / knowledge. Abyssea forced him to do it. Okay, sounds plausible.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So the ninja was not at fault for lying about his skill / knowledge. Abyssea forced him to do it. Okay, sounds plausible.

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In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

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Except, as we continuely told you, leveling a job has zero impact on whether a person has learned their job or not. There is a world of difference between (say for example) blink tanking for an experience party and doing an Under Observation run.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Except, as we continuely told you, leveling a job has zero impact on whether a person has learned their job or not. There is a world of difference between (say for example) blink tanking for an experience party and doing an Under Observation run.

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For crying out loud will you please stop trying to derail the point I'm making. He knew exactly what he was supposed to do, what was expected of him, and he would have done it - but because his skill was so gimp, he could not. No amount of knowledge or effort on his part could change that!

It's like you people are now not even trying to follow what I'm saying; You're just making up your own arguments so you don't have to agree with me in any capacity.

Unpack that. If he'd leveled the classic way, he would have had his skill appropriately leveled?

That's a pretty big assumption!

If he'd leveled the classic way, he might not have had nin past 50 yet. Do you think a 50 nin would have spent hours skilling up yet, or do you think he would start doing that as he hit the cap?

Sorry Eyeballed, I don't think the nin would have been any better if you had it your way.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

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But you were the healer in the situation and everyone died.

It's possible that an uncapped healing magic, lack of MP, lack of cure gear, or anything else, would have been your fault and would contribute to the fall of your run. Not one player does make a trio. I'd make sure those were on cap and then retry it again with a different ninja.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Unpack that. If he'd leveled the classic way, he would have had his skill appropriately leveled?

That's a pretty big assumption!

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Not even. I can't even believe you had the audacity to say what you just did. Listen to yourself - "A Lv99 leveling the 'old way' would not have an A-skill capped at Lv40 or near 130+ skill. Like I just said, by now you're all disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and not even trying to hear anything. Not that you really were to start with.

What you're saying is that I'm assuming a BLM in 2005 could have gotten to Lv75 basically without nuking. Preposterous.