Cumulative Enmity Problems for Melee DD (Particularly Dual-Wielders)

I would like to start by acknowledging and thanking the Dev team for their attention to Melee viability over the last several months. We're still a long way off from gaining community acceptance in hard events and while I feel like the adjustments for melee accuracy and survivability could be bolder, I think it's heading in the right direction.

In this thread though, I would like to ask about enmity control now that Melees are hitting harder and faster than ever (when accuracy isn't a problem that is). This is particularly a problem for content levels below 130 because of the damage multiplier for cumulative enmity. I think the issue is that even though the damage caps were raised in February, the enmity calculations were not adjusted to account for the higher damage output. Additionally, our equipment and weapons have gotten considerably more powerful since the last enmity adjustment.

So I would like to ask SE if the developers are examining melee enmity issues at these CL ranges, and if they are discussing possible solutions.

My main DD job is Dancer and I have put a lot of time and effort into it. I'm a 2100 JP Mythic Dancer and I have very good TP sets and WS sets. But I can't use it to help my friends! For content below 130, I pull hate within one or two WSes or sometimes just from auto-attacks. And for content 130 and above, it's hard to get invites because everyone would rather have a BLU for melee!

So please consider adjusting the damage multiplier for cumulative enmity. It's simply too high for the melee damage output these days.

u act like this is a issue. lol it's not as a 75 go to a 50 camp with them as a 50 and see if u don't have the same issue. your probably a 140ish dd fighting a even prey or decent level mob what did u expect

I am really good at enmity control but I'm very nearly best in slot on my PLD. I've never had a melee pull off my PLD on any escha NM without a hate reset.

That said, lower content level UNM, where enmity cap is attainable because of differences in enmity calculation (affected by level as well as zone I believe), and hate against melee becomes a problem.

This is why level correction was removed from Legion just as Ambuscade was introduced, otherwise enmity in there would likely be a problem.

I'm not saying you should have to be as geared as me, or saying that no melee could pull off me, just that it hasn't happened in escha.

No, I don't think a sparks tank, or a tank without enmity swaps, should be able to hold off very geared melee giving it their all but many tanks giving their all are failing.

Further, the wide gap between mage and melee enmity is just absurd.

Melee will cap in HTBF but one voke and flash will pull back off any number of mages (1-5) after a hate reset.

If i can hold Maju off you, I should be able to hold King Behemoth off you. I don't actually care about KB, I just think mob level should not be a factor in enmity calculation.

With NUKE ALL THE THINGS being the goto strategy, the cracks in melee enmity have been largely ignored.

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Originally Posted by zataz

You act like this is a issue. lol it's not as a 75 go to a 50 camp with them as a 50 and see if you don't have the same issue. You're probably a 140ish dd fighting a even prey or decent level mob what did you expect.

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It is an issue which is why I posted it. And I'm not fighting mobs that check as easy prey. The content I am specifically talking about is CL 119+ content such as normal/difficult high-tier battlegrounds, unity, and Escha T1s. Many physical jobs run into this issue in this CL range. I literally have had to intentionally bring a weaker job instead of my Dancer.

For example, last night I was fighting Bakunawa with my friends. That's lvl 125 content. The first attempt, I hit it with a 2-step skillchain. it turned, and then hit me with a 5-hit crit multi-attack. The second attempt I waited a good minute or so to let the tank stack enmity, I auto-attacked to 3000 TP for AM3, then used only one 15k Pyrrhic Kleos before it turned. That's all it took to eclipse our Runefencer's enmity, who was stacked to the brim with it. We didn't start winning until I switched to my 0-JP DRK in ambuscade gear, and held my TP so that the tank could close all of the skillchains to hog more enmity. The mob still turned briefly though, even after my weak DRKs weaponskills.

My friend's tanking was definitely not the issue, because he is a very good tank. It's just notable that this consistently happens typically in the 119-125 range for most melees I know. That's why I think the enmity calculations are not fitting with current melee damage output. A 15k weaponskill generates about 21k total enmity. Keep in mind that the last time enmity was adjusted was back when 119 AF gear was some of the best gear available. Not many melee were hitting 15k weaponskills in lvl 119 content back then.

And you really can't compare ilvl content with sub-99 content with ilvl 119+ content. The gear at that level is nowhere near as varied as 119 gear, and there is also a level-scaling factor for enmity gains when fighting mobs lvl 51-99. Enmity gains against ilvl 100+ mobs are purely based on damage dealt. That's why it can be a problem on mid-ranged content levels like 119 up through around 130 where it's easy for players in 119 gear to reach the damage and haste caps, but the NMs still hit hard enough to deal very substantial damage to melee DDs.

I specifically have tanked Bakunawa, frontloading as much enmity as a Paladin can, and will lose it to any decent dd by their third ws.

No amount of "holding" back really fixes this. In none of this content does dd enmity decay as fast as they build it.

Bakunawa is as "hard" as many T1s (not hard) but enmity works completely different especially considering a progressed DD has plenty of vorseals to increase their damage in escha.

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Originally Posted by Shyles

I would like to start by acknowledging and thanking the Dev team for their attention to Melee viability over the last several months. We're still a long way off from gaining community acceptance in hard events and while I feel like the adjustments for melee accuracy and survivability could be bolder, I think it's heading in the right direction.

In this thread though, I would like to ask about enmity control now that Melees are hitting harder and faster than ever (when accuracy isn't a problem that is). This is particularly a problem for content levels below 130 because of the damage multiplier for cumulative enmity. I think the issue is that even though the damage caps were raised in February, the enmity calculations were not adjusted to account for the higher damage output. Additionally, our equipment and weapons have gotten considerably more powerful since the last enmity adjustment.

So I would like to ask SE if the developers are examining melee enmity issues at these CL ranges, and if they are discussing possible solutions.

My main DD job is Dancer and I have put a lot of time and effort into it. I'm a 2100 JP Mythic Dancer and I have very good TP sets and WS sets. But I can't use it to help my friends! For content below 130, I pull hate within one or two WSes or sometimes just from auto-attacks. And for content 130 and above, it's hard to get invites because everyone would rather have a BLU for melee!

So please consider adjusting the damage multiplier for cumulative enmity. It's simply too high for the melee damage output these days.

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This also have been an issue for Blue Mage as well. Tank have a hard time holding hate from people who close Skill Chain. At this point the only tank that can hold hate would be a PLD with a mythic sword master 2100 job points. Dnc does have issue and they pull hate extremely fast. I almost feel like they are like a tank but if only Fan Dance was damage taken -% instead of only physical damage -%. :/

There is a perfectly good reason on why people prefer Blue Mage DD over other job.

Blue Mage can solo with 5 trust against Leviathan Avatar Very Difficult and kill it under 3 minute the moment it engage. Now that is what i call the coolest thing in the game. I believe it was the august 2016 update made this possible. Even when campaign trust is gone Blue Mage can still kill Leviathan. I was like OMG the coolest job ever created in the history of FFXI. Since I am not very good Blue Mage and not well equip with mythic or empyrean 119 weapons i can only kill it under 10 minute with trust.

Blue Mage and Red Mage have very high magic evasion and magic defense armor set empyrean 119. Blue Mage can go beyond that with their spell buffer that explain why they have so much durability than other DD and they can put out huge amount of damage with Chant du Cygne.

Now can a Dnc, Thf, War, Drk, Drg, Mnk, Sam without the use of 1 hour SP solo Leviathan Avatar Very Difficult with 5 trust with campaign trust or without.
The answer is HELL no and most of those job would end up dead by NM magic attack bonus.

Akihiko Matsui If you are their I am not asking for nerf to Blue Mage because a long time ago no one wants to play this job and no one care. Now they are popular and you see people making Almace weapon 119 all over the place and that is a good thing. I only ask if you improve the magic defense and magic evasion armor set of all DD job to be on par with Blue Mage and Rdm empyrean armor 119 set. Even if you do this keep in mind that a Blue Mage + their spell buffer goes beyond but at least other weak DD like War, Drg, Drk, Mnk, Sam can close the cap.

So go out there and start playing Blue Mage Akihiko Matsui and let us know what you discover. If you have no plans to not make adjustment not Nerf Blue Mage but improve other DD durability than I don't mind being Blue Mage all day and everyday just so i can solo stuff with trust. =)