Is it possible to show what stats it provides, along with the previous animators when they get updated in the next version update? I feel that it is unfair to hide animator stats when all other equipment show what occurs when you equip them, outside of hidden effects. At the moment, we are forced to meticulously test out what stats it has instead of simply enjoying the job.
Sarcasm
If this is impossible, please make it so that all future weapon and armor come with a detailed description instead of showing their stats as well, so all jobs, not just puppetmaster, would have to test out what benefits their equipment provides. /sarcasm
Thank you SE for Alternator, but...
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05-17-2013, 09:48 PMSvensThank you SE for Alternator, but...
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05-18-2013, 05:01 AMTheytakSeriously, it's clear what they do. The animators don't need the flavor text hiding the stats any more than Bard's need "This instrument lets you play music!" on their harps and flutes instead of just showing what songs the instruments enhance. Same goes for Geo's bells, for the record.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svens
That said, while this would be nice, I'm betting that it wouldn't help us much with the alternator, because from the drastic number of stats it has, I'm guessing it that even if the stats on it were listed, it would look like:
Alternator:
Automaton: STR+70 DEX+70 VIT+70 AGI+70 INT+70 MND+70 CHR+70
Enhances Automaton Parameters
Because there's so much going on with it that it clearly exceeds the normal equipment stat slot cap. Remember that, for example, there aren't enough slots on an item like, say, Apollo's staff for it to say:
str+2 dex+2 vit+2 agi+2 int+2 mnd+2 chr+2 vs. Dark+20
Cure Potency +10%
Additional Effect: Light Damage
Light Magic Potency +15%
Darkness Magic Potency -15%
Light avatar and spirit perpetuation cost -3
Darkness avatar and spirit perpetuation cost +3
Charm success rate +15%
That's too much to fit. Alternator is turning out to be much the same way, since it seems like most of the stat boosts exceed what we would typically expect from the stats alone (ie: ~40 r.atk, as opposed to the expected 35)
Still, it would be really nice for all the other animators, and any new ones, if SE just told us what they do, since apparently they do have more hidden stats than we thought (ie: JP data seems to say that Deluxe Animator has Automaton: Acc+4 M.Acc+4). The problem is that they've ninja-overhauled puppet damage equations at least twice in the last year or two, and a lot of our old testing, which was fairly solid when it was done, is now giving completely different results, so they apparently like to randomly tweak how puppets work and not bother mentioning it to us.
By the way, cut that out, SE. If your doing something to our puppet, tell us when you do it. We're going to notice, and it's just going to annoy us if you try to slip it under the radar. -
05-18-2013, 11:04 PMKristalIt might not be a change to the puppet, but rather a change to mobs. They've been messing around with a lot of stuff lately, and it sometimes does weird things when they only check player vs mob. Such as the wonky enmity on pets... doing a 1500 Victory Smite then having the mob run after the pet for casting Dia II...Quote:
Originally Posted by Theytak
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05-19-2013, 11:44 AMKarbuncle
Wouldn't quite need all that crap if they could expand on what information we see, Like they did with FFXIV.
Acc, Macc, matk, Eva, etc would be nice info to see, but I'd settle with Atk/def for Automatons -
05-20-2013, 06:17 AMShinron-PUP
I also believe that Square Enix needs to disclose the hidden effects of alternator. Alternator clearly does more than what we can see. If you compare between having alternator on and off, the pet normal attacks are nearly being doubled (including ranged attacks), BLM pet's nukes are getting about 1000 damage tacked onto it, and our Pets WS, excluding magic moarter and cannibal blade, are also get 1000 damage tacked onto it (depending on the ws of course), and even volt gun and blaze spikes are doing 100 dmg on enemies. Knowing what alternator does isn't just for kicks and giggles; by knowing the status effects, it allows us to optimize what it does. For example: if alternator gives evasion +100 (Just making something up) then it won't be neccessary to use Acellerator II/I in some cases. By knowing its effects, we can use it to our advantage.
Please like svens post so that we can bring this matter to the attention of the Dev team. -
05-20-2013, 06:41 AMTheytakThat's also true. We don't really now for sure how similar pet damage equations and monster damage equations are, though, beyond the fact that they're both different from how damage works for players. Consider all the variables, and things get a bit tricky. In all, though, the single biggest difference between us is Skills. Players have skills that they need to level up in order to function well, and our skills play major roles in nearly everything as far as damage goes, as they're the largest portion of our base attack, our base accuracy, and our base evasion. The only one of the four core physical stats (atk acc dev eva) that doesn't have a skill-based influence is defense, which replaces the need for a skill with the need to have armor. Generally speaking, aside from beastmen and some beastmen-related mobs, monsters don't wear armor, but it's generally pretty obvious that their defense calculation is different from our own due to SE accounting for the lack of armor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
Thus, it becomes a matter of "do monsters have skills that are just assumed capped for their level? Or do all of their calculations function similar to defense, where the difference between player variation and monsters is accounted for through different means?" I think the primary reason we've always assumed that pets and monsters use the same formulas is that outside of pup, and to a lesser degree smn, pets aren't affected by their own skills. I say a lesser degree for smn because the avatars don't have to skill up, the player does, and summoning skill only partially relates, at least as far as I understand it, which isn't very far, so I may be completely wrong on that. Anyway, the automaton is the only pet with its own skills to level, independent of the player's skills, and even then, it has its own quirks, because it's generally pretty clear that automaton defense values are more in line with player defense than monster defense, thus why they've had survivability issues (alternator and valoredge aside).
Now obviously, bst pets clearly use monster calculations, because they're monsters, but it's always bothered me that we seem so certain that bst pets, avatars, wyverns, and automatons all use the exact same calculations. Sure, it makes sense from a logical perspective; if they're all classified as pets, they would all function similarly, and in truth, that may well have been the case early on, but over time, pets have been changed so much on an individual basis that it's hard to say they all work the same way at all. If you look at pets back just after pup was released, and then look at them today, you can sort of see what I mean:
2006:
- Bst's charmed pets function like normal monsters, because they are normal monsters
- Bst's jug pets are all noticeably weaker than same-level counterparts (ie: compare a level 35 tiger familiar to a level 35 tundra tiger in beaucedine glacier.), though this was reflected in bst monsters's pets, who were noticeably weaker than their same-level counterparts and thus made for marvelous mage solo exp (add a level 35 Gigas's Tiger to that comparison)
- Drg's wyverns are even wimpier than jug pets
- Pup's Automatons without attachments/maneuvers are a bit tougher than wyverns, but not quite as tough as jug pets, but the distinction isn't large
- Smn's avatars outside of bloodpacts and their innate 50% damage reduction, are about the same strength (general melee)
- Overall: they're all relatively similar in function and weakness.
2013:
- Bst's charmed pets function like normal monsters, because they are normal monsters
- Bst's post-75 jug pets are much closer to normal monsters than they are to the wimpy jug pets of old
- Drg's wyverns aren't significantly stronger, but now they have their weird level-up functionality that no other pet has
- Pup's Automatons have had their damage tweaked a lot and their skill caps raised once, but at their core are mostly the same (since most of our changes have been to AI and VE getting DT-)
- Avatars are a bit beefier as well, and are more directly linked with summoning skill
At the same time, where do combat NPCs fall in this? They're not at all consistent. Some of them function like players almost perfectly, especially the older ones, in terms of survivability and general damage output, but others (I'm looking at you, Serpent Generals and Campaign Leaders) clearly use something entirely different.
We know monsters have recognizable jobs, but consider, for example, the Rng shadows in Fei'Yin. Rng has no native h2h skill, and those shadows reflect that by only punching once (and using one h2h weapon, for some reason), but those punches are definitely a lot harder and more accurate than they should be if the monster's using a skill basis for their atk/acc, and if they had h2h skill, shouldn't they attack twice per round, like every other h2h-using mob? Sure, sure, SE could apply something special to them, but why would they go out of their way to do that to that one particular mob? It makes a lot more sense if you consider that monsters base attack and accuracy is calculated without considering skills at all, and instead they're given a (most likely level-based) relative base-line value instead. Really, giving monsters/pets/npcs a relative baseline and tweaking their calculations seems a lot more likely, resource-wise, than having to assigning them all values for all the miscellaneous variables in the player calculations and then ramping up the scaling.
Honestly, I'd love some clarification from SE:
Do pets, monsters, and combat npcs all function identically in regards to their stats? Or are they each distinct from one another, in the same way they're distinct from players? I'm not asking for the exact equations, though I wouldn't mind them, just a simple "Is it A, B, or some thing we hadn't thought of, C?".
Alternator, at present, gives at least 120 evasion, and similar accuracy, as it's been shown to take floored hit rates and evade rates (20% and 5% respectively) to capped (95% and 80% respectively) with no other change to the puppet, against the same monsters. It's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
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05-20-2013, 09:18 AMCljader1
I love alternator my puppet is in complete "Beast Mode," had my valoredge or Sharpshot solo VT Burning Mantis while I just watched and sipped a glass of lemonade, I literally would have been in my puppet's way. Sharpshot's Armorshatter does over 4k damage on VT's its nuts! Of Coarse I had flame holder on, but never have I seen A VT's life drop to half with one weapon skill and my ranged is not even capped. Not to mention, VT's cant even hit the sharpshot frame, miss after miss after mother lovin miss. "Relic Animator" is what it is.
Edit: and if alternator wasnt enough to kill the mob, I'll just take it to stage 2 and hit "Overdrive" and stats go through the roof! -
05-21-2013, 08:18 AMTheytakNo. *Swats you with a rolled up newspaper* Bad. That's like saying "I want a bard puppet!" or "the puppet should be able to cast AM!". Terrible ideas. Don't insult Alternator like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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05-21-2013, 11:48 AMCljader1I have absolutely NO idea what your talking about...Quote:
Originally Posted by Theytak
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05-24-2013, 07:38 PMZhronneYeah but appearently they can't do that becuase it's not data currently transmitted in the normal Server<>Client protocol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
To add that data they have two options I think:
1) Either change/adjust the protocol, in a way that doesn't make communication between clients and server any slower than it already is (this would be best on the long run but possibly the most complicated to do too)
2) Add a new window with "additional stats", these stats are not there by default but each time you try to access that menu a request will be sent to the server, which will reply with the requested data and after a few seconds you'll be able to see the window open up with all the additional data.
I think a solution such as this would be more likely and I wouldn't mind at all. Could be a sub menu of the "Status" menu.