The Gear of Pup

I've been enjoying my experience on this job. One thing, however, has just constantly been causing me to have plenty of "wtf moments." That is pup gear. My intention to level this gear was for Reive and Solo Salvage. When searching through gear options to make myself stronger (since, ya know, I have h2h), I keep coming across all these mistakes of Pup being added to mage gear. I get it. You can't have a puppetmaster's strength to the point it would make mnk cry. However, I'd prefer updates of filler(near useless just to make it seem there's a plethora of things to obtain in the FFXI world!) and side-grade(SE's forte) gear that would add Pup access rather than throw their name on something useless to them. I just don't understand who thought it'd be a good idea to throw a Pup's name on random mage gear, just to make it seem that Pup does have an equal amount of gear options that RELATE to our job. The puppetmaster is a melee job. If you can't replace Pup with another melee job and have it make sense, Pup shouldn't be on there as well.

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Originally Posted by Miiyo

I've been enjoying my experience on this job. One thing, however, has just constantly been causing me to have plenty of "wtf moments." That is pup gear. My intention to level this gear was for Reive and Solo Salvage. When searching through gear options to make myself stronger (since, ya know, I have h2h), I keep coming across all these mistakes of Pup being added to mage gear. I get it. You can't have a puppetmaster's strength to the point it would make mnk cry. However, I'd prefer updates of filler(near useless just to make it seem there's a plethora of things to obtain in the FFXI world!) and side-grade(SE's forte) gear that would add Pup access rather than throw their name on something useless to them. I just don't understand who thought it'd be a good idea to throw a Pup's name on random mage gear, just to make it seem that Pup does have an equal amount of gear options that RELATE to our job. The puppetmaster is a melee job. If you can't replace Pup with another melee job and have it make sense, Pup shouldn't be on there as well.

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Dude. Stop with the color coding. Seriously.

I just spent 5 seconds trying to double click the first piece of blue text thinking you can compiled a spread sheet of "wtf" gear for PUP, then I noticed the random colors across your post and stopped reading...

Meanwhile, you're a bit late to the game on this one. It was way way worst before the cap was raised above 75. The first decent set of melee gear that pup really appeared on aside from random pieces was either part of "end" game (Enkidu/Usukane) or was stuff like Cobra/Pahluwan. Mirke was the first non-AF/Relic piece that was greatly specialized towards the job's needs and that was only because of the augments.

Looking back and remembering to ignore the synthesis stuff, you can still say how painful it was to be a PUP back in the day.

Post 80, though, PUP's options open up quite a bit now and with Verethragna (even without it), you find yourself being able to contend with just about all DD's. Additionally, the automaton is capable of some potent and exceptional damage all its own, not to mention being able to tank quite effectively in some scenarios. PUP's not really in so bad of a position with regards to gear anymore.

Not to say it isn't still one of the least loved jobs, but its way better than it was when I was slaving to build PT's for it and having people drop out haphazardly saying "lolPUP".

EDIT:

And PUP being on mage gear was not a mistake. The original intention for the job was for you to match via subjob what your automaton was going to do. You go to a PT with Mage puppet, you sub a mage job, Healer? /WHM. etc. etc. The game's community just never endorsed the idea [read: it never worked as well as SE imagined it would because of the Automaton's wonky AI] so it never took off, and SE, for fear of making PUP too powerful, never gave them the tools they needed to make it a reasonable expectation that this style of play should work. PUP started to find a more efficient and practical home as a damage dealer and solo'er -- when SE came around to the realization that their original plan didn't work, they started giving us better DD gear.

PUP is on mage gear because it was supposed to be uniquely capable of emulating other classes, but the plan never came together. Additionally, if you do the research, you'll find that your burden rates are affected by the differences between your stats and your automatons -- If your automaton has more INT than you do, you generate more burden per Ice Maneuver and so on for each other stat with DEX having some undisclosed affect across the board. (which is why the advanced animators give DEX boosts.)

I know its kind of the trend of the game culture now with how quickly you can level a job to max -- but you can't really jump onto older jobs, especially ones with histories as sorted as PUP or say, DRG, and just start talking about them without doing any real research into how things have worked out thus far... A lot more goes into it than "Puppetmaster is a melee job."

No, Puppetmaster -became- a Melee job. Where it is now is, despite how well it works and how enjoyable it became, quite a bit separated from what SE originally intended. The same thing is likely to happen to Geomancer and Rune Fencer, as it happened to Corsair, Monk, Ninja, and even Beastmaster.

Could probably toss Dragoon, Summoner, and Red Mage on that list as well.

EDIT 2:

Side note, some of the most successful PUP solo'ers I knew pre-75+ were PUP/Mages, and utilized a full set of mage gear for things such as Mount Zhaylom burns and the like.

I don't see what's wrong with the OPs suggestion. Some changes could be made to old gear, and even the new gear (see also; Orvail). I know that SE might have a philosophy that differs from reality, but when the players want to play their jobs a certain way - what's the harm?

Also, I know it's kind of the trend of the game culture now, but you don't need to condescend to people on the forum when you respond. :)

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

I don't see what's wrong with the OPs suggestion. Some changes could be made to old gear, and even the new gear (see also; Orvail). I know that SE might have a philosophy that differs from reality, but when the players want to play their jobs a certain way - what's the harm?

Also, I know it's kind of the trend of the game culture now, but you don't need to condescend to people on the forum when you respond. :)

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You can take it as condescending if you want, but the point still remains that there's a long standing history of the way PUP is offered gear that fits along side its original design. It is a style of play that works, it is just not readily supported by the community.

It's not a mistake that PUP is on gear like Orvail -- it is a specific decision that supports a perfectly viable manner in which the job was meant to be conducted. We just don't use it. PUP/Mage works. It works for solo, it works in some low man scenarios. People just choose and prefer to gear and operate PUP as a straight damage dealer class when it reality it is not.

Coming into a forum for a job you've obviously only recently started complaining about things that have been discussed through and through for years and have actually IMPROVED quite a bit (as I pointed out, PUP has received quite a number of boons towards its roll as a straight damage dealer and, when properly geared, can contended with most, if not all, jobs of equivalent build in most scenarios within reason.)

It is incredibly late in the game to start rattling off about how PUP is geared (i.e. claiming that certain choices are mistakes, which is incredibly pretentious) when they already rectified what used to be a problem by including us on more melee gear without slapping the people who tried to play the job one of the ways they intended from the beginning.

"The harm" as you put it is what it always is -- When something in this game is designed to work a certain way, countless other things piggy back off of that baseline. PUP was included in newer gear after the community's preference for it as a DD started to shine through SE's attempts to push their own agenda -- going back and changing old gear, gear which only a small fraction of the community bothers with giving the haste at which you can reach lv. 99, is an asinine request even if you're considering people who solo from 1 to 99. If I could use the existing gear (which is was a lot worse back in the day) to get to 75, including stints of soloing out of boredom, when a DC only gave 50 xp, I see now reason why the same gear (again, which is arguably better in terms of selection than it used to be) has to be changed to support solo'ing to 99 when EP's give nearly 100.

It's just a weird, wasteful request. There are plenty of things the job needs, but right now gear isn't really one of them. Frankly after years it feels weird for me to even be able to say that, but considering my PUP can wear most of the same DD gear as my RUN and several of my other part time DD jobs including BLU, MNK, and BST.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Dude. Stop with the color coding. Seriously.

I just spent 5 seconds trying to double click the first piece of blue text thinking you can compiled a spread sheet of "wtf" gear for PUP, then I noticed the random colors across your post and stopped reading...

Meanwhile, you're a bit late to the game on this one. It was way way worst before the cap was raised above 75. The first decent set of melee gear that pup really appeared on aside from random pieces was either part of "end" game (Enkidu/Usukane) or was stuff like Cobra/Pahluwan. Mirke was the first non-AF/Relic piece that was greatly specialized towards the job's needs and that was only because of the augments.

Looking back and remembering to ignore the synthesis stuff, you can still say how painful it was to be a PUP back in the day.

Post 80, though, PUP's options open up quite a bit now and with Verethragna (even without it), you find yourself being able to contend with just about all DD's. Additionally, the automaton is capable of some potent and exceptional damage all its own, not to mention being able to tank quite effectively in some scenarios. PUP's not really in so bad of a position with regards to gear anymore.

Not to say it isn't still one of the least loved jobs, but its way better than it was when I was slaving to build PT's for it and having people drop out haphazardly saying "lolPUP".

EDIT:

And PUP being on mage gear was not a mistake. The original intention for the job was for you to match via subjob what your automaton was going to do. You go to a PT with Mage puppet, you sub a mage job, Healer? /WHM. etc. etc. The game's community just never endorsed the idea [read: it never worked as well as SE imagined it would because of the Automaton's wonky AI] so it never took off, and SE, for fear of making PUP too powerful, never gave them the tools they needed to make it a reasonable expectation that this style of play should work. PUP started to find a more efficient and practical home as a damage dealer and solo'er -- when SE came around to the realization that their original plan didn't work, they started giving us better DD gear.

PUP is on mage gear because it was supposed to be uniquely capable of emulating other classes, but the plan never came together. Additionally, if you do the research, you'll find that your burden rates are affected by the differences between your stats and your automatons -- If your automaton has more INT than you do, you generate more burden per Ice Maneuver and so on for each other stat with DEX having some undisclosed affect across the board. (which is why the advanced animators give DEX boosts.)

I know its kind of the trend of the game culture now with how quickly you can level a job to max -- but you can't really jump onto older jobs, especially ones with histories as sorted as PUP or say, DRG, and just start talking about them without doing any real research into how things have worked out thus far... A lot more goes into it than "Puppetmaster is a melee job."

No, Puppetmaster -became- a Melee job. Where it is now is, despite how well it works and how enjoyable it became, quite a bit separated from what SE originally intended. The same thing is likely to happen to Geomancer and Rune Fencer, as it happened to Corsair, Monk, Ninja, and even Beastmaster.

Could probably toss Dragoon, Summoner, and Red Mage on that list as well.

EDIT 2:

Side note, some of the most successful PUP solo'ers I knew pre-75+ were PUP/Mages, and utilized a full set of mage gear for things such as Mount Zhaylom burns and the like.

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QFT - Couldn't have said it better myself. More posters need to give reasonable replies to posts that, upon "initial review" tend to make sense until you realize after you start reading it, that it was something that was an issue years upon years ago and has since been resolved. Kudos!

Before we get into the merits of "in my day, we had to level PUP the hard way... in the snow... uphill.. both ways..."

I just wanted to respond to the OP to point out that there is still some great gear for you to consider when leveling your PUP the old-fashioned way: link.

I just think it's sad that, while it sounds like you agree that most people play the job as a DD, and it probably would make sense to add PUP to the gear... you just don't want to see this request made because there are more pressing priorities. Don't worry, SE will thoughtfully disregard all requests equally.

Also, it does suck that newer players have things easier... we should punish them and praise SE for their solid direction on PUP...

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

Before we get into the merits of "in my day, we had to level PUP the hard way... in the snow... uphill.. both ways..."

I just wanted to respond to the OP to point out that there is still some great gear for you to consider when leveling your PUP the old-fashioned way: link.

I just think it's sad that, while it sounds like you agree that most people play the job as a DD, and it probably would make sense to add PUP to the gear... you just don't want to see this request made because there are more pressing priorities. Don't worry, SE will thoughtfully disregard all requests equally.

Also, it does suck that newer players have things easier... we should punish them and praise SE for their solid direction on PUP...

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No, I don't care about this request because there is plenty of gear to achieve the goal of leveling up solo without them devoting specific time to it. 95% percent of the pre-Abyssea Puppetmaster community did it -- it is completely possible, and /Mage is actually the superior manner to do it (up until you get into the higher stages of /DNC waltzes, I guess, but I prefer /WHM or /RDM from time to time myself), especially with how easy it is to solo against EP-EM and still make good EXP. It would be a reasonable request back when solo'ing T's was the only way to assure solid EXP per hour, but these days you can solo with Valordedge and Sharp well much farther than you could before. The White Mage head isn't even that good until later down the line -- meaning that you honestly want Mage gear to facilitate safer progress. Pair that with the fact you have access refresh from books well into lv. 80, and "doing it the old fashioned way" actually makes mage gear a decent idea.

Just like how Beastmasters sub WHM to solo.

EDIT:

And as far as "praising SE" goes, you can shove it up your ass. I have plenty of problems with SE and this game, but frankly stupid requests are stupid no matter how bad a company's development direction ends up being.

Just because you refuse to play a job the way it is meant to be played at certain levels doesn't mean the entire world as to cater to you. If I go around on Ninja using G.Katana, complaining that they don't get any of the best ones that doesn't make Ninja's G.Katana situation worth looking into, it makes me an idiot.

If you're having a hard time solo'ing as PUP, then it is likely there is a miscalculation present in your own play style -- that's not a problem with the gear selection, that's a problem with the player. And it applies at all levels. If you're not having a problem, there's no real reason for the request to begin with.

And I'm as nice and helpful to new players as the next guy. If this was a "what should I wear?" post, I'd have gone through the oceans of gear, including DD-assisting gear, that already exists for the job from 1 until 99-- but it wasn't. It was someone who obviously doesn't know anything about the job's options trying to say that special time needs to be spent fixing a problem that's not really even a problem anymore. I've got nothing to say to praise or even defend SE, I just don't think people should presume to know what is best for a job after a couple of months of limited exposure and without even really looking at what their options are.

If you want to brow beat every monster down in seconds, PUP is not the job for you -- and even later at 99 creative thinking, gear choice, and play style adjustment is a -requirement- to be successful at the job.

look another unprevoked Malekith, er um I mean Horadrim tirade

/shocked

Instead of browbeating someone some advice would have been helpful. You could have started with something like "Actually the reason pup is on that gear is because..." and "There are options if you look. Such as..."

I have my days too when something I typed comes across more trollish than intended, but these sort of consistant, arrogant and needlessly mean responces from the same and very vocal players are why ppl who actually have good points and ideas that would do this game TONS of good do not bother posting on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Elphy

look another unprevoked Malekith, er um I mean Horadrim tirade

/shocked

Instead of browbeating someone some advice would have been helpful. You could have started with something like "Actually the reason pup is on that gear is because..." and "There are options if you look. Such as..."

I have my days too when something I typed comes across more trollish than intended, but these sort of consistant, arrogant and needlessly mean responces from the same and very vocal players are why ppl who actually have good points and ideas that would do this game TONS of good do not bother posting on this forum.

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EDIT:

Actually no.

If you've got a problem with me and my posts, feel free to add me to your ignore list. I don't see you contributing anything useful to the conversation either. Like I said, if this had been a post asking for help I would have contributed it -- but it wasn't.

Beyond that, you can have whatever opinion you want of me and how I respond to people -- I'm not asking you to read any of them, and frankly, if you don't want to or have a problem with me I'd prefer you just make ready use of the feature as it is presented to you.

I'm with Horadrim here. Though the reply was passionate, it was not a tirade and merely a reaction to the OP, which was a tirade of sorts...
There are always people who go on and on about 'the good ol' days'' and how it was better, but when you start a job, you should be aware of what the job is about or was intended for. Saying that you levelled PUP for solo salvage and reives does not justify a demand for more DD gear. If we start going down that road (and SE has to a certain extent) the job balance that is buggered at least at the moment will completely fall apart. 'I want to do such and such, therefore the gear available for my job should be such and such' is a ridiculous idea and worthy of a little bashing.
The fact that PUP can now equip Neo Nyzul DD gear is enough to show that SE has at least acknowledged PUP's adopted role in the game. That is not to say it is the intended role.