Hello Square! Community Reps! Players alike!
Recently, a Discussion came up on another Website about the expansion, What players would like to see, what the focus could be, what you could add to fights to make them more interesting... Ways to counter PD Zergs, Chainspell Zergs, Etc. Not entirely eliminate it for every fight, but to add some fights that are simply more than just a CS > Zerg or PD > Zerg.
A lot of these strategies are useful, and I don't mind them, But some ask for fights that would require a good solid strategy, that would challenge your knowledge of the job, and your skills and monster knowledge.
Let me post some of these Ideas and concepts that were spitballed in this thread, as Well as me giving you an idea of all these concepts working together in sync. So Without further ado,
---Basic Concepts---
-Originally suggested by Yugl on Bluegartr
To expand on this. The Objectives would be split up into different categories. Imagine yourself entering a room, and You're in 3 parties. Its an Alliance fight. You would have the option to go straight for the boss, Or to target side objectives that would do things likeQuote:
The best way to do that is to break up the PT into groups with different objectives. Using current events as an analogy, the event would be like completing 5 different assaults at once. After completion, the group reunites to fight against a NM.
1) Improve boss drop rates
2) Weaken the bosses Defense
3) Weaken its offense
etc, as well as provide a small chance to drop the item the bosses drop - ala Einherjar/Odin.
The Categories would be designed around different party situations - Mage, Tank, DD. For example, If you have a mage party take the mage path, It will be a trial of your knowledge on Enemies.
You'd spawn in an area, in front of you would be some enemies, Different families, etc. They would aggro after you nuke them. If you nuke them with their weak element (I.E if you hit a crab with Ice) they will die instantly, If you nuke them wrong, They will proceed to aggro you. These enemies would be strong defensively and offensively, But not impossible. Knowing their weakness will save you trouble. Hitting the Enemies Weakness will also activate the bonus.
Another possibility is a room with multiple enemies, testing a mages ability to crowd control and kill. These are just examples of a Mages room.
-Originally suggested by Me.
This one is explained pretty well above. It would encourage a reliable tank, like Paladin, as well as encourage diverse jobs. BLU for instance would be valuable for both stages.Quote:
The Enemy could move throughout the fight to a certain "Aura" Area, It would of course have draw in... But
*If it moves to the north corner of the room, It will receive a potent MDB,
*If it moves to the South side of the room, It gains a potent Physical Resistances
*If it moves to the East side of the room, It gains the ability to Chainspell, and Immunity to stun.
*If it moves to the West side of the room, It gains a Hundred-Fist like Effect, and Immunity to stun.
You can encourage it to move based on actions taken. It moves every 1~2 minutes based on a few things. Like say
- Moving it North would be triggered by hitting it heavily with magic moves,
- Moving it South would be triggered from heavy physical damage.
- Moving it East would be from Stunning its Magical moves too often.
- Moving it West would be from Stunning TP moves too often.
This allows you to control the outcome of the fight, and also encourage a good tank so you don't have him chainspelling/Hundred Fisting because of needing to stun often, Also it encourages a diverse damage groups, since it can gain heavy resistances either way based on your strongest damage output during that time.
Originally Suggested by Me
Pretty summarized above. These precautions would be anti-zerg, without creating an Absolute Virtue situation.Quote:
1) Have it Use a very strong, Single target move that will bypass Perfect Defense if it switches its current target, Like the Pixie in Abyssea. This discourages Zerging because it would end up killing everyone in seconds with your typical zerg fest.
2) Have it have Ever changing Directional Immunities, Or Damage immunities, To All but the current tank.
3) Have its Physical Attacks bypass PDT/MDT entirely, Making Defense the strongest and most key function to defending it, thus PLD's, Who have naturally higher defense, Would need less "Maintenance" than a DD would to stay alive. Have Shield Blocks do much better against it as well.
Originally suggested by Rocl on Bluegartr.
Perhaps jokingly, But he has a point. You could bypass all the fancy fight mechanics to prevent Zerging, and just require your 2hour to be used on Entry, Maybe recharge it when you exit. Rather simple, But easier to program.Quote:
How about upon pop the monster puts 2HR on cooldown and you can't buff beforehand? '~' No temp items, so no Revitalizer, and you couldn't use a COR to reset because their 2HR would be down too. Fuck, you could make an available 2HR an entry condition, and upon entering your 2HR is set to maximum recast.
I mentioned in a previous thread but I never liked CS+Stun and I don't care for PD+Embrava either, despite loving every job involved in those situations =P
Originally suggested by Taim Meich
I think this is a great idea.Quote:
Also, some kind of part-breaking mechanics, like breaking imp horns could be neat. If you WS the NM from the left side when it's casting a spell, you break its left wing (for example) and no longer can do the wing-flapping TP move, but the breaking does trigger an Roar TP move that dispels everything: Do you want to avoid the annoyance of the wing TP move (let's assume it's quite annoying), being forced to rebuff, or prefer conserving the potent buffs, but deal with the wing flap? The breaking should only be possible a few minutes after the fight has commenced, to avoid breaking immediately while unbuffed and then buffing.
---An Example of a Fight---
Lets take the above examples and put them together in a scenario. Lets start with the entering. Its an 18 Man fight. Time Limit 60 Minutes.
You enter in a Room, There's three paths. Labeled "Mage" "Melee" "Tank". These would be objective based rooms only 1 party each could enter. Balancing your parties would still be the best idea, But the Objective would vary depending on the room, given you knowledge on what to expect going in. You can take a DD party into mage room, But it will be harder. You can enter all 3 Simultaneously.
Mage side objectives would be.
1) Bypassing enemies through Sneak/Inviisble - ala Maze Monger.
*Perfect clear would be getting through undetected.
2) Randomly spawned Enemies, Nuking with their weak element kills instantly,
Wrong element causes aggro.
*Perfect Clear would be 1-shotting all enemies.
3) Multiple Enemies, testing your ability to Crowd Control/Kill.
*Perfect Clear would be taking Less than 1k Damage total.
4) Every so often Enemies would Be hit with a phantom Skillchain - Any Magic Burst kills instantly.
*Perfect Clear would be Killing more than 5 enemies with a Magic Burst.
Melee Objectives.
1) a "Blitzkreig" style wave of Enemies. Easily killed. Tests your survival and damage.
*Perfect Clear would be killing all within 5 minutes.
2) A Mini boss, Weak in all, High Defense, Easily killed by overpowering its defense with your attack.
*Perfect Clear would be winning within 5 minutes.
3) Enemies spawn randomly, Hitting them with the Physical damage they're weak too One shots (Slashing, Blunt-Staff/club, Blunt-H2h, Piercing), Hitting wrong aggroes them.
*Perfect clear would be one shotting all Enemies.
Tank options. (All have high PDT/MDT, But can still be killed through melee) (Ninja Works well in some rooms, PLD more in others)
1) Strong enemy dies slowly to DoT, Tests your Survivability.
*Perfect clear would be never dropping below 75% HP.
2) Enemy attacks slow, Takes multiple shadows, Hits hard, Easily remedied by Defense, or well timed Flash, or keeping shadows up. Dies slowly from DoT.
*Perfect clear would be never dropping below 75% HP.
3) Shield Blocks will damage enemies significantly, Enemies PDT/MDT Removed.
*Perfect Clear would be Doing the majority of Damage from Shield Blocks (For PLD). Or Receiving no damage at all (For NIN)
4) Multiple Enemies in waves ala Blitzkreig, Die slowly from DoT as well as damage reflect from shield blocks, Tests your crowd control/Positioning skills (Keeping enemies infront of you for shield blocks) Enemies have Low accuracy as well.
*Perfect Clear would be keeping all enemies in front of you for the majority of the fight.
**(Dies slowly from DoT = about 2 minutes per fight)
These are spitballed ideas, Not really incredibly thought out - But the idea is each room would have a specialty where certain jobs would shine, and your knowledge and abilities will be tested. Each room rewards you with something when you successfully complete it. "Perfect" Clears would add bonuses.
Completing a mage room would weaken the enemies Magic Defenses. "Perfect" Clear lowers it magic attack.
Completing a Melee room lowers its Physical Defense. "Perfect" Clear lowers its Physical Attack.
Completing a Tank room Increases its drop rate. "Perfect" Clear adds an additional drop slot.
You can however, Ignore all options, and shoot straight for the boss if you're in a hurry.
--- Moving on to the boss. Boss is say, a Manticore. It has...
200,000 HP. (??)
Special Abilties:
Physical Attacks ignore PDT. Defense effects enemy heavily. Takes enchanced damage from "Reprisal" (2x-3x)
Fight begins with Enemy in the center of the room, no special abilities at start. Has a decent attack speed, and good double attack. Can cast high level magic. Every 1-2 Minutes, It will move to a certain side of the room. As shown above.
*North Side gives it a Strong MDT (90%)
*South Side gives it a strong PDT (90%)
*East Side gives it a Chainspell Effect - Immunity to Stun.
*West side Gives it a Hundred Fist effect -Immunity to Stun.
*Center of the room - Benefits from all Auras. Gains access to "Weapon Break".
North is triggered by heavy Magic damage over the course of the 1-2 minutes, South is from Heavy Physical damage, East is from Stunning too many spells, West is from Stunning too many TP moves. Remains stationary within the "Aura" for duration, Has Draw in. If Draw in is used, It is followed by a Tail Swing. - The directional dynamic of this fight encourages a diverse party set up, of Melee, Mages, and a strong tank (To avoid stunning too much).
Moving to the Center of the Room is triggered by dealing more than 20% of its HP within 30 seconds. Which would only be possible through a zerg. This would be an Anti-Zerg tactic.
Has the following TP moves.
Heatbreath - Single Target very powerful Fire damage. Used when another Player takes hate.
Scorchbreath - Conal fire damage, Strongly reduced with high defense.
Tail Swing - Single Target. Used after draw in.
SandTyphoon - Conal Earth Damage, strongly reduced with high defense.
Roar of Eternity - Gains Haste, Attack, and Magic attack bonus, Enemies in range inflicted with Terror for 5~10 seconds.
Sphinx - Reduces HP and MP of enemies in range by 80%, Ignores current Target.
Weapon Break - Reduces Attack and Magic Attack of targets in range by 85%. Used only if extreme damage is down in a short time.
All moves can be Shield Blocked as well. If blocked, Reduces damage and/or Negates additional Effect.
Every 75% HP, He will use Roar of Eternity, Which boosts his attack/magic attack/haste by 50% each. It lasts up to 3 minutes. However, Each successful shield block will create a "Reprisal" like effect, lowering the enemies attack, Magic attack, and Haste by about 2%, Reducing the impact of this significantly if you have a good Paladin.
As for how Defense will play a role, It will have a high base damage, but only moderate attack, and its pDif will be able to fall below 1.0, So stacking Defense, or as a PLD, your natural high defense, Will grant you much stronger resistance to the enemy, where as a normal DD, due to it bypassing PDT on physical attacks, will get hurt much more significantly.
A Normal DD could stack DEF, but a PLD would be able to do it more easily. Its not a fix to PLD, just an example of a fight that could encourage a more dynamic "Team Play" element with balanced parties.
---In Closing
This will give dynamics to a fight, But its not going to fix real tanks, Like PLD. The above is just an example of how fights can involve more than zerging. Zerging i find a good strategy for some fights, But it would be nice if fights had a little more dynamic too them. P.S PLD still needs a fix. The above, while it would encourage a strong paladin, Would not fix the job, as Ochain/Aegis would vastly improve it.
The above is only an example of a fight that might make PLD more appealing, and use a "Single Tank" Style combat over DD Zerg combat. Its not to say all fights should require PLD, Its to say some variety would be nice. This shouldn't be retro-active, and should just apply to a small number of new fights. There would still be those fights you could PD Zerg (Dont wanna make SMN useless), But there would also be those fights that discourage Zerging.
Feel free to add your opinions. Remember, none of the above is intended as a fix to be the absolute next content, Just an idea of how adding some small ideas could lead to a dynamic fight, that can change each time you play, but remain entertaining for a time. Every game gets boring, every event will get old, But its no reason to not try something new.
Throwing 3 HNMs at us in the same time doesn't involve strategy, its Zerg and hope for the best. Many Vs 1 HNM fights are the best ways to make dynamic battles, focus on one aspect, and make it something you can enjoy doing the first few times, since thats all you can hope for.
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07-12-2012, 09:03 PMKarbuncleSuggestions for new Battle Content and Dynamic Fights.
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07-12-2012, 11:53 PMSpankWustler
I really like the simplicity of the "this machine kills 2-hour abilities" idea. Obviously, it wouldn't be a good mechanic if used very often, but I think the concept is interesting.
Difficult monsters and Perfect Defense going together like my crippling existential misery and the drinking of mouthwash (or a lock and key, for the more adjusted among you) is getting a bit old.
Phases and changes throughout a fight are always good. Even if it's just a specific action at a certain level of HP, such as the way both Odins roll, being able to predict and deal with drastic changes is more strategic than simply predicting a massive HP pool and dealing with drastic area-of-effect spells and abilities.
Particularly if the phases come with physical damage resistance or an aura that is bad news for melee, because that's the only way I can imagine folks who cast Blizzard and whatnot coming close to buffed folks who hit things with things. Given, the folks who cast Blizzard generally have far more utility, but the difference in damage is just that huge unless something is present that makes melee mostly miserable.
As for enmity and tanking and tanks, that's a weird issue. I honestly think there's no one easy solution there, and making monsters do weird stuff will just make fights feel awkward if that's the only thing done.
The enmity system needs work. Vague and much easier said than done, but still true.
It would probably help if "tanks" evolved into something more like guardians or caretakers or leaders or father-figures or whatever for the party. This is how the tanking role works in many modern games, both single-player and online, in which the "tank" is more of an all-purpose damage mitigation system for a group than simply a brick wall that stuff might want to hit sometimes.
Also, as the party's father-figure, Paladin's new two-hour ability could be giving a monster a disappointed look until that monster gives up on performing stand-up comedy and casting Kaustra on people in funny-looking armor. With a single tear running down its cheek, assuming it is of a species with both eyes and cheeks, the monster would hand over whatever it may have dropped and trudge off to see if any desperate medical schools might accept it.
Except for Arch-Dynamis Lord. He would respond by coming out of the closet and tromping off to open a very successful Bear Bar somewhere in New England, taking his Umbral Marrow with him because I think that stuff is the equivalent of body hair for him.
That stuff isn't really related to monsters or new content, though...so...
Monsters themselves really do need stronger single-target or conal skills that aren't just casting Death, and these should generally be more damaging than the area-of-effect jazz rather than more or less the same.
TLDR Version: "Anything that reduces the huge importance of Perfect Defense is good. I like phases and changes. I worry enmity-stuff and tanking-stuff are basically irreparable. Thursday nights at Beara Slash remain lame due to too many college-kid sightseers." -
07-13-2012, 12:03 AMKarbuncle
Enmity is a huge issue, And SE seems to have no way to fix it, I think making PLD a strong presence in the party might be a good direction. Think like a Tanking BRD, Except not as drastic as that. It would improve your own parties defenses, as well as its own. RNK seems like it might be taking this path as well though.
So instead of Enmity being the focus, the focus should be making enemies damaging enough that a DD Tank might not be the safest solution, but it has to be damaging in a way that removes a lot of what makes DD Tanking Viable... PDT/MDT Sets, and to a lesser extent, Fanatics/Fools.
Making certain special enemies normal hits a Non-Elemental Magic attack (Like Twilight Scythe) so it ignores most/all Defenses would be a start. It would hurt PLD, but if the Enemy was given a high Damage (Think of it like, a D:150 Weapon), But only a moderate attack, a good PLD Could overpower his attack, and dip the enemies damage down quite low. Would have to rework the fact mobs pdif bottoms out at 1.0, At least for these enemies.
I'm not against DD Tanks, IN fact, the above could be done as easily with a DD Tank by allowing the use of PDT/MDT to work finely, But PLD would just be a safer bet. You also have to look at jobs like NIN who don't fill many rolls well in this scenario.
Its a tough issue to resolve, Enmity and the way PLD plays, play a big part in why tank jobs are a dying breed in FFXI. That issue won't be solved overnight, But dynamic, Zerg-resistant fights could still be introduced, DD Tank or no. -
07-13-2012, 09:06 AMRosina
i skimmed thru some of it. And i like. I'm beyond tired of the zerg fest that ffxi player base (*on forum) calls good. it makes fighting so dull..... its like "wait for proc" >> "massive zerg"
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07-13-2012, 10:32 AMRekin
The suggestions presented by the OP could turn this game's meta on its head. Developers please seriously consider some of the provided suggestions... assuming its not lost in translation.
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07-13-2012, 10:55 AMKarbuncle
Also as a bonus to my original idea, this type of Zerg-resistant fight also encourages a spot for Debuffers. Since the mob would be killed in a slow manner, Debuffs would be more valuable, since its not just a PD/CS Zerg.
So it might give a small part to Red Mage, or at the very least, some debuff jobs. -
07-13-2012, 11:28 AMRosinai welcome this. my main used to be rdm... then with all the bs i ended up putting down my sword. ; ;Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle