So after completing my Ochain recently, after a year and a half of chipping away to the best of my abilities, I got to test it out in a new ToAU VW pickup shout. Was fighting some imp where he would call about 5 other imps later into the fight to assist him, and they all would share hate with the main NM from the time they were spawned and be glued to whichever DD was lucky enough to be the most recent highest on the hate list.
Issue started where no matter what I did, it wouldn't pull any of the additional imps away from the DDs until they basically were killed, which is all kinds of fail on the PLD front. First fight I ran in and did Circle Blade, then popped Sentinel as well as Provoke on the one I had targted, and then tossed a few Cure IV on the DD I was failing to yank hate off of, then second fight I basically did the same thing but also tossed in Invincible after making sure I had damage on all their lists, and still wasn't enough for me to land high enough on the hate list, so another wipe ended up occuring after my failure. It's to my understanding that PLD itself is worthless usually anymore in VW because most groups usually have a support job like BRD go /PLD to cover shield bash, unless it's not on the Jeuno path, given all those VWNMs spawn additional mobs to swarm the players, which is where PLD is supposed to pull them off to the side and hold with Ochain / Aegis while the rest of the group work on procs and slowly killing the extras that keep spawning periodically throughout the fight.
Dunno, since it seems you want to introduce new content where PLD is going to be best at managing a group of mobs in special occasions to utilize the higher DEF and MDEF they're known for, would it be too much to ask for a few new tools to entertain a group of mobs instead of just the usual... Flash, if you're not /WAR?
Hey Devs, can I get some form of AoE hate control?
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06-19-2012, 07:55 AMChilzenHey Devs, can I get some form of AoE hate control?
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06-20-2012, 03:57 AMOakrest
+1/Like. PLD needs a general/overall hate control benefit. I.e., introduce a JA or JT that raises enmity cap for the PLD - I know they said they won't raise the hate cap - but if they want to fix PLD, it seems like they need to make an exception.
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06-20-2012, 04:03 AMDaniel_HatcherHate is NOT PLD's main problem, never was!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakrest
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06-20-2012, 04:13 AMOakrestOk sure - it never was. It is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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06-20-2012, 05:37 AMDaniel_HatcherNo it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakrest
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06-25-2012, 04:08 AMTeraniku
The problem is holding aggro, has nothing to do with the hate cap. DD's can hit the hate cap so fast anymore it isn't funny.
So basically the mob plays musical chairs between the Tank and the DD's when both are at the cap. I think a more effective ability would be some type "Lock" ability where you use it to have the mob lock on you for 30 sec. once it drops it's back to the merry go round, but give it a 2-5 min recast time and it might help. Make it a lvl 90 ability. -
06-27-2012, 01:30 AMOakrestJunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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06-27-2012, 06:55 AMLlana_VirrenHate is not a problem for PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakrest
The problem is that current hate mechanics allow almost all DDs to hit the enmity cap within 2-3 weaponskills. In any zerg event (read: all modern FFXI events) this will be the case.
In order for tanking to be even feasible at this point, a dramatic change in enmity calculation will be required, including reducing enmity-via-damage by over 50%. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
All in all, you need to understand the how's and why's of enmity before you suggest what a tank's problem is in maintaining hate. -
06-30-2012, 01:58 AMOakrestWhat?!?! We're saying the same thing (except that you're combining "tanking" with "enmity control" and that's a mistake - there should be a distinction there. Tanking is about damage mitigation, and enmity is about enemy control/focus)Quote:
Originally Posted by Llana_Virren
In any case, the fact that you're not making any real separation from what I'm saying yet finding a way to say, "you need to understand the how's and why's of enmity before you suggest what a tank's problem is in maintaining hate" is insulting and a waste of time. My understanding of CE, VE and enmity mechanics probably far exceeds yours. I am an Ochain/Almace Paladin that has been playing since NA launch and know enough to know that your argument is just useless - what exactly are you sayin? No changes to enmity for paladin, right?
You say:
and then you say:Quote:
Originally Posted by Llana_Virren
So if hate is not a problem for PLD, why are you proposing any changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Llana_Virren
Moreover, I remind you that tanking is different than enmity control. Further still, the fact that you think the enmity loss from damage is a problem tells me you really don't know anything about this. Caping haste on any melee job (including paladin) can easily regenerates the enimity cap but the monster is bouncing around like a marble game of hungry-hungry-hippos because the cap chart keeps capping and uncapping and switching to the next ID on the enmity lists (CE and VE). The cap needs to be raised, such that select characters (PLD foremost) can exceed other party members on the enmity lists and safely perseve focus as even that new raised cap increases and decreases (99%-100% and back).
Obviously they may need to rewrite the entire enmity mechanic - I don't really care, I'm not getting paid to be a game developer for SE to figure that out. The point is, the enmity cap increase should be done for paladin (and maybe some other select jobs as well). I don't care how they do it, and I don't care how much of the "iceberg" is under the surface either.
Stop getting so granular. Paladin should be able to control enmity and currently can't reliably at any point in the battle once enmity caps (and as you pointed out, that happens really fast at present). Perhaps another solution is to just lower the amount of enmity generated across the board (and I mean drastically) for all spells, ja, etc - and then increase it for pld. Effectively/relatively achieving the same thing, but that approach has a more clearly defined limit/ceiling before 0. -
07-03-2012, 04:57 PMChilzen
I know I kinda bailed on the topic I made, but I was really just asking for something like an AoE Flash or something that would help me get hate on alot of mobs at once for basically the not Jeuno VW fights they've introduced that have additional mobs, or something like Fistule where he spawns in additional mobs as a rough example. I've just noticed they been adding in alot of fights like that where extras keep spawning midfights as of late and not much a tank can really do besides toss native Flash with a long cooldown or... Banish 1 + 2, without having to change targets mid fight to get a hit or two in to have the mob's attention.
Just looking to see if SE plans to update PLD to keep it up with the times, now that we've hit the hopefully final cap increase.
In retrospect to my issue in the main post, I learnt from doing additional VW fights like Bismark and a few others that the effective way is for PLD to flash claim and hold the VWNM until his adds spawn and wail away on the PLD, then have DDs yank the main NM off while PLD sits back and does alot of nothing as Ochain blocks all the minion attacks. Not really engaging combat on my part, and if a mage or melee somehow had an AoE land on a single minion mob, the entire pack would swarm them and I'd be stuck with my gripe of having no effective ways to get the rowdy group back under control until whoever pulled hate died, or I pull hate over whatever it was they did. Then toss in the fact that any person that healed them would then have hate on the mobs and leave me with the task to find the one that was missing HP in a group of tightly woven roaming pack to yank hate on it was kinda not the easiest thing to do in a panic situation as /p is exploding and everyone's trying to figure out what went wrong.
Dunno, just my two cents for consideration, if they're looking for honest feedback about ways to improve PLD performance in VW and other events, current and future. Better ways than having a BRD/PLD in party to cover the one proc needed.