Red is obsolete.

[idx1]

I've played as Red since the start of '07, what attracted me was Fast Cast, the 'unique' ability to refresh yourself or the party, 'unique' spells such as Enspells, and also being the best enfeebler.

All is lost. So I quit. One note is that I do not have Abby.

Fast cast? No, for one a Blue can cast 100-500% faster than a Red.
Dancers can recast Utsusemi: Ni faster than Red - with Abby haste items, literally everybody has Fast Cast in the form of Haste.

Composure was great, until you cast something like Utsu: Ni - goodbye Fast Cast.
Full-time one of your best MP-saving Job Abilities and you can shove that Fast Cast.

Enspells.
PLD and DRK Enspell ONE is better than all of Reds Enspell I + II.

Refresh.
Everybody has Refresh. You go /SCH and it's already better than Refresh II.
Blue can Refresh-ga.

Enfeebling.
With maximum merits, a Red has access to more potent forms of basic enfeebles such as Paralyze, Blind, and Slow. Though it's just unfortunate that these enfeebles are heavily defensive, and only assist with keeping the Red alive in solo situations.
Though they may help keep a party 'alive', a stronger cure from a White or Scholar inevitably outweighs all forms of defense a Red can offer in terms of "defensive magic".

Sure, a Red can sleep mobs.
Well, a SCH or BLM has natural Sleep-ga capabilities, making them inevitably better in that department.


Nuking and enhancing aren't even worth talking about.
Red is the weakest nuking class (unless they 2-Hour).
A Red has no -ga type enhancements.

Melee.
You go anything that is not /NIN and your melee is beyond useless.

tldr; Haste II? Enspell III? Stoneskin II? Reraise? Cure V? Regen III? Tier 5 Nuke?
From 90-99 these won't exist.

A Red is nice - but only when you don't have a Blue, Black, White, or any other mage around.

/quit

One last thing; can we get some long term (at least 3year plus) RDM players into the discussion instead of these Blue or SCH main-ers?

[Raxiaz]

Haste is not Fast Cast. It affects recast timers but it does not affect casting speed.

RDMs excel at hindering their foes. They do very well in this field, and without a RDM a mob can be a pain. To my knowledge, NOTHING beats Refresh II. /SCH Sublimation is only 2MP a tic.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[idx1]

Fast Cast on Sleep - with a natural cast time of 2.5 seconds.
A red casts it about a second faster.
Big whoop.

Refresh II - nothing gives more MP a tick, but do you see any Blue or SCH needing Refresh II?
Only Mage/NIN type characters need it.

And way to choose less than 10% to discuss against before trolling.
Mad respect.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Blu using Diffusion... ahahahahaha, nice jokes. and waste of merits. Blu also can't set all their spells at once. Blu doesn't have Fast Cast better than Rdm, in fact recent information now points to that Blu's fast cast is inferior (that or SE changed how it works with the Fast Cast update, so it's either intentional or a bug). A second faster is faster regardless of how minimal you think it is, and for FFXI shaving even a second off casting time can make a difference, especially in a pinch. Enlight and Endark degrade over time and with composure Rdm's lasts much longer, try again (their real benefit is the additional stat ups, enspell 2s are just fail anyway).

The weakest nuking class is Drk (Techincally Whm too) btw, even with higher skill they have no MAB. Sch has higher spells but no native MAB, locking them in /rdm or /blm if they're serious about nuking.

Lots of mayad that a generalist class can't match up to a specialist... Rdm was never better than a specialist class in any field, ever. The only class you can have any gripe over is Blu and that's only that they're better at melee/healing if they focus on it. Any healer not whm sucks in Abyssea as it is anyway, Rdm isn't alone in that.

[Raksha]

Sch has higher spells and no native MAB, locking them in /rdm if they're serious about nuking.


Fixed that for you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Forgot about FC :/

[idx1]

Blu doesn't have Fast Cast better than Rdm, in fact recent information now points to that Blu's fast cast is inferior (that or SE changed how it works with the Fast Cast update, so it's either intentional or a bug)

Info was taken from FFXIclopedia.

Quadratic Continuum
Cast time: 1 second. With Fast Cast 1 = Less than a second.
Recast: 24 seconds. With Fast Cast 1 = 22 - 23 seconds.

vs.

Blizzard IV
Cast time: 8.25 seconds. With Fast Cast V = 5.775 seconds.
Recast: 36 seconds. With Fast Cast V = 30.6 seconds.


Enlight and Endark degrade over time and with composure Rdm's lasts much longer, try again (their real benefit is the additional stat ups, enspell 2s are just fail anyway).

Typically, Red's enspell 1 does about 22-26 damage per hit.
Enlight or Endark is about 50 per hit, with degrade.
You're telling me double damage that can be 'refreshed' every 30 seconds, is inferior to 'a longer lasting enspell'?
You might be right if both spells were only casted, once.


The weakest nuking class is Drk (Techincally Whm too) btw, even with higher skill they have no MAB
Last time I played FFXI - DRK didn't nuke. They didn't pull out their Jupiter's staff and Thunder III'd. From what I remembered, they did Nether Voids, Dark Seals, and Drain and Drain II. And from what I remember, DRK was a TP job, not a nuke-type. Amongst the .Nuker. type jobs, Red is the lowest.

Blizzard IV base value for magic attack is 506. With Magic Attack Bonus III it's roughly 647.
Aero V base value for magic attack is 738. Any additional Magic Attack Bonus easily beats out a RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Individual spell casting time =! Fast cast. Once again, Blue mage is a better hybrid job when it comes to melee, except their physical spell damage drops drastically on anything that isn't a trash mob, and their magical nukes suffer from short range and long recasts, in addition to the fact they cannot access all of their spells at one time. The more often you have to cast spells, the more it detracts from dealing damage from through melee/WS, to the point without honourbound Enlight is actually a detriment to keep up for Pld, especially at higher levels of haste/delay reduction. Just because they do not use their elemental spells, does not the change the fact Whm and Drk are the weakest nuking jobs. In fact, it's precisely for that reason they do not use them, and in Drk's case, in addition to the above.

You would have a case for Sch, when they have haste and MAB, until then, they can't do everything. If it mattered, they also have the worst melee ability in the game, even Blm is better at meleeing than Sch is. Rdm is a generalist job specializing in enfeebling magic, why are you expecting it to perform better at nuking than Blm/Sch in the first place?

Before getting a higher tier of magical nukes Sch was considered pretty useless as a main job.

[idx1]

SCH/WHM = Haste. Slap on a Staff you get the MAB on tier V spells that WILL outdo Red nukes.

And since you're so insistent about WHM and DRK being nukers, lets go with it.
RDM is better at nuking at classes that simply, don't nuke. Woahepic.

I'm not expecting it to be better.
No class should nuke better than a BLM/xxx

You say best enfeebler but what enfeebles are useful outside of Sleep/Gravity.
Do you really need Para2 to kill a mob, any mob?
Do you really need Slow2 for the same?
No, you don't.

Dancer's have Gravity, it requires no cast time.
They can insta heal - IMO better a DNC than a RDM for those jobs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There's 7 jobs with the potential to nuke (5 dismissing Drk and Pld and not counting pet jobs), Rdm is 3rd, this is a problem how?

All I see is mayad Rdm is less useful if you have specialist jobs already, but that's the case with any generalist job in any MMO.

That's more of an issue of where you are using said enfeebles/mob immunity really. The more people you bring to a fight with specialized roles, the less attractive Rdm becomes, and I don't see that as being a problem at all.

The fuck @ comparing Dnc Healing to Rdm, one of these jobs isn't stuck on a universal timer to either cure or remove status effects. Hint: it's not the mage one.

[idx1]

Curing Waltz V 900HP instantly 23 sec recast.

Red Cure IV and Cure III alternating is still far less. By the time you alternate your second cycle the DNC is ready.

The fuck at picking some redundant factor such as a universal timer vs. a practical situation where numbers are more important within a shorter time frame.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I have no words for taking 23 seconds to cast Cure 4 twice.

Not that a dnc should be using Waltz V in the first place it's that fucking terrible.

[idx1]

Looks like I gotta spell it out for you.

Curing Waltz V 23 sec recast. 900 HP NOT including curing potency, which is a heavy boost.
Cure IV 8 second recast. 390 HP.
Cure III 6 seconds. 190 HP.

You Cure IV twice, that is 16 seconds of recast and guess what, you're still UNDER healing vs. Curing Waltz V.
You do Cure III in the middle, that's 22 seconds of total recast time you've accumulated, not to mention the casting TIME of THREE spells.

DNC just shot off another Curing Waltz V or IV for that matter, and is still ahead.
Even with just Curing Waltz IV, still ahead, not to mention the healing is instant.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Oh okay, so you cast spells naked and don't know what macros are, that's all you had to say. And you somehow break the game because 8 second recast on Cure IV is impossible for Rdm barring Slow/Composure up. Even more so if you [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] knew how Fast Cast works.

[Ketaru]

I've played as Red since the start of '07, what attracted me was Fast Cast, the 'unique' ability to refresh yourself or the party, 'unique' spells such as Enspells, and also being the best enfeebler.

I've been playing a RDM since 2004. You're surprised that a job that is referred to as a "Jack of all trades, Master of none" doesn't have many "unique" qualities? The whole premise behind the job is it steals qualities from other jobs.


Fast cast? No, for one a Blue can cast 100-500% faster than a Red.
Dancers can recast Utsusemi: Ni faster than Red - with Abby haste items, literally everybody has Fast Cast in the form of Haste.

Composure was great, until you cast something like Utsu: Ni - goodbye Fast Cast.
Full-time one of your best MP-saving Job Abilities and you can shove that Fast Cast.

1) As others have pointed out, Fast Cast is not Haste. 2) RDM can equip Haste too. It is not as easily accessible to us as most frontline jobs, but we can still cap Haste with what's available now.

Composure has a downside? We've totally never seen that before. Not in old nonsense like Berserk or Counterstance.


Enspells.
PLD and DRK Enspell ONE is better than all of Reds Enspell I + II.

...

Typically, Red's enspell 1 does about 22-26 damage per hit.
Enlight or Endark is about 50 per hit, with degrade.
You're telling me double damage that can be 'refreshed' every 30 seconds, is inferior to 'a longer lasting enspell'?
You might be right if both spells were only casted, once.

The more attacks you get in, the better your Enspell is relative to theirs. Swing faster and get a better weapon. By the way, numbers I see range more like 27-32. And I'm not even capped yet. Looks like you haven't been casting your Enhancing magics!



Refresh.
Everybody has Refresh. You go /SCH and it's already better than Refresh II.
Blue can Refresh-ga.

PLD/SCH. The wave of the future.



Enfeebling.
With maximum merits, a Red has access to more potent forms of basic enfeebles such as Paralyze, Blind, and Slow. Though it's just unfortunate that these enfeebles are heavily defensive, and only assist with keeping the Red alive in solo situations.
Though they may help keep a party 'alive', a stronger cure from a White or Scholar inevitably outweighs all forms of defense a Red can offer in terms of "defensive magic".

Where are you getting this from? Or are you just parroting what you heard other people whine about in Abyssea? Because you admitted at the beginning of your post you don't have Abyssea yourself.


Nuking and enhancing aren't even worth talking about.
Red is the weakest nuking class (unless they 2-Hour).
A Red has no -ga type enhancements.

Clearly you're only interested in BLM and SCH as other nuking classes. But hey, at least you admit BLM should be the strongest because of their other limitations.

Special something about SCH that people who whine conveniently ignore about the job: without using Addendum: Black, SCH is restricted to tier III nukes. RDM has unrestricted access to tier IV nukes. Even if RDM subs /SCH, and therefore must work within the Arts stances, that is still one less limitation that RDM must account for to be a nuker. RDM also has access to a much wider variety of gear than SCH, including more Magic Attack Bonus. Not that SCH can be discounted as a nuker, but I play the job (do you?) and it requires much more fine management than RDM does.

Throw in other generalist jobs like BLU and DNC, and clearly RDM is still the one that most seamlessly transitions between roles.


Melee.
You go anything that is not /NIN and your melee is beyond useless.

The word you're looking for is situational. It's niche and rather redundant in a game full of a bunch of meleers. But it's not useless.



tldr; Haste II? Enspell III? Stoneskin II?
From 90-99 these won't exist.

You're mad because you won't get these?


Reraise? Cure V? Regen III? Tier 5 Nuke?

I thought you wanted "unique" stuff.


Curing Waltz V 900HP instantly 23 sec recast.

Red Cure IV and Cure III alternating is still far less. By the time you alternate your second cycle the DNC is ready.

The fuck at picking some redundant factor such as a universal timer vs. a practical situation where numbers are more important within a shorter time frame.

They need TP to do it, which often means being in range of melee attacks and Area attacks. But please, by all means, keep ignoring the limitations all these other jobs have that RDM does not.

To Neisan_Quetz...you need to watch your language. Not because you aren't right. But because the powers that be have the authority to censor you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Thanks for the concern but I have no intention of censoring my posts.

[idx1]

Oh okay, so you cast spells naked and don't know what macros are, that's all you had to say. And you somehow break the game because 8 second recast on Cure IV is impossible for Rdm barring Slow/Composure up. Even more so if you [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] knew how Fast Cast works.

Nice assumption, but that's just you talking dirty with baseless fact, and without tact in regards to discussion.
I had enough "Equipment changed" spamming my chat log and lifelong inventory problems, and in regards to my 'skill' in using a RDM - there are players that can vouch - I can PM you their IGN on Odin.

Ketaru - I did not say Fast Cast was Haste. I said that 1) Blue can cast faster than a Red. 2) Everybody has access to Fast Cast in the form of Haste - though where I wasn't clear about the 'cast faster than the bar reaching 100%', I was more talking about recast.

"The more attacks you get in, the better your enspell is"
Yeah let me just get my Beestinger, oh wait even better a Kraken with Enspell II the "pwns".
You're obviously one who thinks haste is better than higher damage outputs per swing.
27-32, yeah perhaps with a Fencer's ring or an enhancing sword.

None of my input is in anyway related to what I heard 'Abby players whine about'.
It's the sad truth but most Reds don't have those enfeebles maximized. Simply put, those merits are better off in other areas, in other jobs.

And stop trying to belittle me with baby talk about me being mad regarding Red not getting whatever spell I mentioned - it's called calling out what a Red won't get - however you perceive it is your deal.

In regards to "unique stuff" - yeah, that would of been nice - but it ain't so unique anymore now, is it?

DNC healing vs Red healing - there are limitations on both sides. A Red's is safer and weaker but consistent, and a DNC can actually save your life.

[saevel]

The guys a troll. Best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them and not read their posts. They crave attention as evident that he keeps responding to each of you in some sort of "I'm right" war. Deny them that attention that they go away. Chances are he doesn't even play RDM, he's just coming on here hoping to stir up stuff and get a laugh at your expense.

In short,
Don't feed the trolls.

[Silverleaf]

RED MAGE POWER FOREVER!!!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Shouldn't argue with the OP.

He's joined simply to troll.

[Stylin]

You're surprised that a job that is referred to as a "Jack of all trades, Master of none" doesn't have many "unique" qualities? The whole premise behind the job is it steals qualities from other jobs.

That's not what being a Jack means. At all.

Being a Jack also implies that you're worth your salt at any given trade.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's not what being a Jack means. At all.

Being a Jack also implies that you're worth your salt at any given trade.

Which admittedly is rather sparse where RDM is concerned at the moment, nuking wise we are good at that, once less tier than BLM is a good way for it to be.

Healing and Melee though we are rather far behind on.

[Kiroko]

I think everyone is looking too black and white at it. If the Rdm keeps people alive, helps in the situation in some positive way, then they are still worth having like any other job. Yes some jobs are better than others but its how you use them that matters.

[Duelle]

what attracted me was Fast Cast, the 'unique' ability to refresh yourself or the party, 'unique' spells such as Enspells, and also being the best enfeebler.Too bad none of those were what a Red Mage should have been. Specially so in the case of Refresh.
That's not what being a Jack means. At all.

Being a Jack also implies that you're worth your salt at any given trade.Except that in the context of MMO game balance it is an OP concept. Hence why hybrids work so well in single player RPGs but tend to get shafted with support or healing in MMOs.

[Babekeke]

All is lost. So I quit. One note is that I do not have Abby.

This is what your whole rant is about... you don't have abby and everyone else does, so you're sat on your own in aht urgan.

/thread

[scaevola]

you play a bad job in a game where every job can solo everything anyway

DWI B)

[idx1]

RDMs excel at hindering their foes. They do very well in this field, and without a RDM a mob can be a pain. To my knowledge, NOTHING beats Refresh II. /SCH Sublimation is only 2MP a tic.


SCH at 90 is 7MP a tick Sublimination - Refresh II is six.
/SCH at 45 is 3/mp a tick - without even the need to use any mp to cast Refresh but receiving the refresh effect.

Refresh II < SCH and /SCH.

Other jobs need a Red more so he needs himself.

And no, I can get Abby whenever I want. But what does a Red get from Abby - Empyrean that will actually allow a Red to have a stronger Refresh effect that a SCH that gets it naturally?
OK.
I'll pay for that.

And no I wasn't sitting in Aht Urghan - there have been an influx of new characters that Abby burned and had Limit Break problems because nobody gave a rat's ass about them vs. Abby burning.

Last days before I quit was helping them get their genkais done.

Whether somebody has Abby or not does not entail one being better than the other.
ohwaitschisomg.

You guys can nitpick at my posts and attempt to trump one minute side of a discussion - but please don't forget the BOLD text posted in the first post.


A Red is nice - but only when you don't have a Blue, Black, White, or any other mage around.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can stop making yourself look stupid now, you already confirmed earlier you don't know how gearswaps work. I suppose it's excusable since you said you don't have Aby, so you don't have any gear from there either!

[idx1]

Neisan - virtual items take you so far in life - but if it's a conduit that allows you to feel better than someone else, I'm more than happy for you.

You can bark all you want about how gearsets work - you've nothing but assumptions and slander, sadly.

[Leonlionheart]

Lol I'm liking this thread, OP even brought up virtual items vs RL argument! I love it when they do that to try and validate why they can't even put in minimal effort to get better at something that they spend time doing, or enjoy doing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I know right?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SCH at 90 is 7MP a tick Sublimination - Refresh II is six.
/SCH at 45 is 3/mp a tick - without even the need to use any mp to cast Refresh but receiving the refresh effect.

Refresh II < SCH and /SCH.

Other jobs need a Red more so he needs himself.

And no, I can get Abby whenever I want. But what does a Red get from Abby - Empyrean that will actually allow a Red to have a stronger Refresh effect that a SCH that gets it naturally?
OK.
I'll pay for that.

And no I wasn't sitting in Aht Urghan - there have been an influx of new characters that Abby burned and had Limit Break problems because nobody gave a rat's ass about them vs. Abby burning.

Last days before I quit was helping them get their genkais done.

Whether somebody has Abby or not does not entail one being better than the other.
ohwaitschisomg.

You guys can nitpick at my posts and attempt to trump one minute side of a discussion - but please don't forget the BOLD text posted in the first post.


A Red is nice - but only when you don't have a Blue, Black, White, or any other mage around.

Oh, dear! You really have no clue.

As both a RDM (90) and SCH (90)

Refresh II is superior to SCH for 3 simple reasons.

1. Instant, don't need to wait for it to charge up to gai the MP back, making sure your HP is fine, or getting annoyed as a SCH if you take the hate and drop below 50% health.
2. Main RDM get's more gear for better Refresh than SCH gets for quick charge Sublimation.
3. Composure which even for others now can be augmented with af3 to last almost double the duration

Yes, Refresh I is kind of rubbish for /rdm but no one subs RDM for Refresh they do so for the benefits including Convert, MDB, MAB, Fast Cast III, Phalanx, Stoneskin and so on for jobs that don't get 'em but get use such as BLM or even BLU.

On top of that outside unlimited abyssea most people would have a main RDM to give the jobs that need it Refresh II which with AF3 pants = 7mp/tic so massively superior to the limited Sublimation

As opposed to Sublimation (to block sleep), some stratagems and Conserve MP

As for your last part:


A Red is nice - but only when you don't have a Blue, Black, White, or any other mage around.
BLU - Great job no doubt about it but you forget a few things like alliance targeting, limited buffs to use on others and so on.
BLM - A BLM will want either a BRD or RDM simple enough the spells are still expensive MP wise even with loads of MP Cost
WHM - Outside abyssea (which your doing) Cure VI is rarely needed same with Cure V (mostly used for -enmity) and again they want a BRD or RDM.

Admittedly a BLM or WHM will always be picked over a RDM, but guess what their is limited times you're restricted to only 3-6 people so in an ideal world most people would take a BRD or RDM so hardly useless.

I'm actually surprised someone who doesn't have Abyssea can't understand that.

In Abyssea where MP is nearly infinite, anyone can solo, and the buffs are crazily over powered I could understand your reasoning of thought.

But outside I have no clue where you've come up with these, even using the point BLU's spells are fast casting to trump the trait... Weird!

[ManaKing]

Lots of mayad that a generalist class can't match up to a specialist... Rdm was never better than a specialist class in any field, ever. The only class you can have any gripe over is Blu and that's only that they're better at melee/healing if they focus on it. Any healer not whm sucks in Abyssea as it is anyway, Rdm isn't alone in that.

DNC is better than both of them, but they are the same in that you can't be a main heal in a serious party.



I'm still enjoying playing my RDM and that is all that matters. I do play DNC because it tanks a lot better in Aby and in Lowman situations. That doesnt mean I don't still love my RDM. It's still my main. Just because other classes are blatantly ahead of us doesnt mean we can't still have fun.

Obsolete is just a horrible word to describe RDM. We have proficiency in a lot of different things at the same time. We don't have the ability to do them all at the same time, which is our biggest problem. Historically, we could solo better than almost anyone in the game because of our diversity. That is no longer a unique characteristic of RDM.

The other problem seems to be the Dev teams lack of interest in our current lack of personal power and desirability to a team. Now that we aren't the only class that can low man difficult content, we don't have any real niche besides Phallanx 2 5/5. Our value to a party that isn't a FC isn't significant. But to us, RDMs value is very significant, because it is what we love playing.


To the OP, If you don't want to play RDM because it's not the hot job right now, then you've identified yourself. I can't say that RDMs are reasonable people, but real RDM are diehard about their job. No one that frequents these forums has any intention of giving up RDM, ever. It doesn't mean we agree on what RDM should be, and in fact we fight like animals with each other, but no one wants to play any other job.

I've been playing RDM since NA release. Everytime I come back to this game, I make one. It's my favorite job and regardless of what direction the game takes, I would rather play it than not. It is my favorite job, it always will be.

[Stylin]

Except that in the context of MMO game balance it is an OP concept. Hence why hybrids work so well in single player RPGs but tend to get shafted with support or healing in MMOs.

What does that have to do with anything? "Jack of All Trades, Suck at Them All" is not what the title means. The type of RPG is irrelevant, all the MMO tag means is there's much more room for a dev team to screw up.

[Supersun]

Except that in the context of MMO game balance it is an OP concept. Hence why hybrids work so well in single player RPGs but tend to get shafted with support or healing in MMOs.

How can a concept be OP?

[Duelle]

How can a concept be OP?From experience, generalists are designed to be inherently weaker. The issue is more how much weaker than the "pure" or specialized classes and how it affects everything else. You're either running the risk of being overpowered or so gimp that the playerbase forces you into a niche just to give your class some use.

The type of RPG is irrelevant, all the MMO tag means is there's much more room for a dev team to screw up.I disagree. The MMO tag means that approach in design for certain job concepts have to switch gears in order for them to work.

It stops being about the classes as part of a bigger whole because you're not talking about one unit out of several on the field; you're now dealing with one player behind each character out there. This is why shackling Refresh to RDM was a huge mistake. It would have worked in a single player RPG because you could just ignore that part and continue swinging your sword. MMORPGs always have higher stakes when it comes to gameplay, and because of it you have trends that develop within the playerbase. All of those stem from class design and decisions made when implementing classes.

[Stylin]

Duelle, you disagree with me but pretty much made my case in your reply to Supersun. What the hell man?

As for Refresh I beleive that the mistake wasn't giving RDM the spell, it was NOT giving any other mage a good MP recovery option until Scholar's debut.

[Hyrist]

Just noted this thread, my how it exploded.

Some Fact Checking for people:

Waltz 5 is 900 every 23 seconds.

In the span of 23 seconds I can cast Cure IV nearly 3 times, before factoring in Fast Cast, arts, etc.

So no, comparing raw cure power to raw cure power, we're actually in line with dancer, just using your numbers.


Refresh II is 840 net MP return for 7.5 minutes.

Sublimation would need 6 minutes of uninterrupted ticking to reach that amount. However, for that to happen, Scholar would need a max HP of 3360, due to Sublimation max return limitations.

Essentially, Sublimation's 30 second recast timer hampers its long term use, making Refresh II a superior effect.

There's almost no accurate comparison when comparing /sch to /rdm. Inside Abyssea, with Atmas, I'd heavily recommend /sch due to cast time assistance and the abundance of refresh, as well as status removals. /RDM outside due to the fact Refresh I, Stoneskin, and Convert make for a superior MP Self-maintenance.

Situational subjobs for a varying game.

As far as RDM being obsolete, everyone here has stated reasons why not. I'll simply defer you to low-man parties. Red Mage is still incredible in low man situations, especially outside of Abyssea. The simple vastness of what it can do, on the fly, with changes as minimal as gear, makes it an great staple to have. A RDM and a BLU should be able to pretty much duo anything in short order. RDM BLU AND Dancer? Forget about it.

Hybrid jobs rule lowmans, and RDM is still right up there.

[Annahya]

While I know that the OP had asked for us BLU to stay out of it - a pretty transparent way of trying to control the dicussion, anyway - but something I think the OP is forgetting about BLU is that the majority of our "supah fast damage spells" all have a pretty laughably short range. If a mob is moving (being returned via the puller, or someone breaks hate) we can't just stay in one place - and often a spell cast right after movement is stopped is interrupted. So yeah, if we are fighting worms, and in ideal situations, we are pretty darn fast.

But any number of situations can make our damage output take nearly as long as the casting time on that tier IV that was mentioned...

[Duelle]

Duelle, you disagree with me but pretty much made my case in your reply to Supersun. What the hell man?Well, I think where you and I differ is more on the "worth your salt at your trades" bit. RDM as it is is currently not worth its salt in the melee department. We've gone over why in the melee thread, so no need for repeats here, though.

As for Refresh I beleive that the mistake wasn't giving RDM the spell, it was NOT giving any other mage a good MP recovery option until Scholar's debut.I disagree. Support-oriented things should be given to support-oriented classes. It made sense for Bard to get this through ballad, but it never made sense to give it to RDM because RDM at the time was a generalist that should have been pushed towards the option of front-lining and hitting things or back-lining and healing/nuking.

This is why I also say MP regeneration should be inherent to anyone with an MP bar. Ideally, SMN, BLM and WHM would have gotten 3 tiers of Auto refresh, RDM, PLD and DRK would get 2. Refresh would be implemented as self-cast for RDM and +Refresh on gear could have been put in stuff as early as the lv70 JSE armor for those classes (though I would go and just put it on one piece of each original AF set). No need for Refresh II, no refresh-whoring forced upon RDM (cure botting would still probably be an issue, though), and so on.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not sure how a generalist having support spells stops it from being a generalist...

[Seriha]

Well, when all people want of you is the support spells, what's the point of being a generalist again?

[Duelle]

Not sure how a generalist having support spells stops it from being a generalist...When it trumps every other aspect of the generalist, it is a very bad thing.

I could also start using "hybrid", since that puts everything I say in a more clear context.

[Raksha]

Well, when all people want of you is the support spells, what's the point of being a generalist again?

So do you want RDM to be good at everything? Or do you want RDM to become a specialist? If the latter, what should RDM specialize in?

[Duelle]

So do you want RDM to be good at everything? Or do you want RDM to become a specialist? If the latter, what should RDM specialize in?The specialization should be up the player. That'd make the RDM's hybrid nature shine more than soloing genbu and spamming refresh ever would.

[Seriha]

So do you want RDM to be good at everything? Or do you want RDM to become a specialist? If the latter, what should RDM specialize in?

It's a line that's unfortunately been blurred with DNC's implementation as a martial enfeebler with secondary support tools, but to say both can't coexist without offering their own unique talents would be akin to sluffing off BRD and COR as their own flavors of support.

I've mentioned before I'd be okay if SE took the enfeebling ball and ran with it, and while that wouldn't exactly solve the issue of being a wannabe WHM for EXP purposes, harder mobs would rightfully suffer under a wider array of debilitating spells. At the moment, we're just a little better than a WHM, or any enfeebling capable job that subs RDM, really.

[Stylin]

Well, I think where you and I differ is more on the "worth your salt at your trades" bit. RDM as it is is currently not worth its salt in the melee department. We've gone over why in the melee thread, so no need for repeats here, though.

Operative word "should be". But yes, it's been discussed so I'll stop there.


I disagree. Support-oriented things should be given to support-oriented classes. It made sense for Bard to get this through ballad, but it never made sense to give it to RDM because RDM at the time was a generalist that should have been pushed towards the option of front-lining and hitting things or back-lining and healing/nuking.

This is why I also say MP regeneration should be inherent to anyone with an MP bar.

I am really confused now. You just said exactly what I said, but on a broader scale.

[Duelle]

I am really confused now. You just said exactly what I said, but on a broader scale.Not sure why it would be confusing. I disagree with the approach to, in this case, distributing Refresh. I'm of the belief no class should be shackled to a "resource management" spell like Refresh. If Refresh has to be on the table, as I mentioned, it should be self-cast only or a proc precipitated by action in the front lines. To me that would mean:
Spellblade I (lv10, 1 minute cooldown)
Requires Red Mage as main job
Requires Fencer's Oath (the RDM melee stance)
Requires Sword or dagger equipped

Cast an elemental spell through the equipped blade, bypassing casting timers entirely. Spellblade accuracy is affected by main-hand weapon accuracy and is not affected by MAB.Combined with:
Mystic Resonance (RDM lv40 job trait)
Requires Fencer's Oath

Spells cast through Spellblade I cause magic resonance around all party members, giving them the effect of Refresh for 90 seconds.That's how I'd do it, anyway.

[Zatias]

Yes, red is obsolete. Green is a much better color.

All joking aside, Abyssea is broken, not the job.

[Demonized]

hey all i got a question that i think would be interesting to get the answer too lol
why is it rdm got cure4 at 48 and now its 90 and still got cure4 no upgrades ??
short but just interested to find out ya thoughts

[Daniel_Hatcher]

hey all i got a question that i think would be interesting to get the answer too lol
why is it rdm got cure4 at 48 and now its 90 and still got cure4 no upgrades ??
short but just interested to find out ya thoughts

RDM had Cure V originally it was removed.

After RDM replaced WHM for such a long time I suspect SE doesn't really want to give RDM Cure V back now WHM is the healer again, that said come 99 RDM will have the same Cure spell as every other mage /rdm I would hope SE will decide that they should have higher, though every mage will also have Haste /rdm and no way will they give a higher haste.

[Hyrist]

Higher haste? Perhaps not, but I would not fault SE for giving us hastega in late levels once it becomes available to everyone, just to rub it in some on us.

Though, I would be happy if we got it at all. It makes no sense to me when we're played as a support job, that all other support jobs, (Cor, Brd, Even WHM if you count Bar-ra, Curega, prot/shell and Boost spells) get AoE versions of their buffs. It's an artifical hurtle that really does not add anything to gameplay except redudancy.

[Raxiaz]

RDM "Gain" and "Bar" spells are self-target only. That's not being very supportive of the group. So I don't see how the AoE versions create redundancy when it was already redundant to have those spells to begin with (unless you're soloing).

If I remember correctly, Haste stacks with BRD's March. Slow and Slow II also stack with Elegy... so no, it's not really redundant for RDM's single-target buffs/enfeebles to be available to other jobs in an AoE form that still stacks with our own.

[Rayik]

If SE stopped making mobs IMMUNE to the one thing RDM has going for it it(enfeebles), we might actually be sought after for parties, other than just when the leader can't find a WHM and settles for us.