How would you design Avatar's Favor?

[Kisuke]

Just for fun, I'm not really concerned with the mechanics and balance side.

"Avatar's Favor" was introduced partially as a mechanics response to the tendency of summoners to cycle avatars for their abilities rather than leave them out for longer stretches. However, it could also be said that Avatar's Favor is thought to have the 'story component' to show how the summoner had bonded with their avatar and that the avatar grew increasingly potent based on the duration (strength) of that bond. Previous FF games come to mind, with characters that had specific avatars they could summon, or something like FF8's system where each character had an affinity stat for each avatar depending on how much they had been called forth.

If it were you designing a system for FF11 that stressed the bond between Evoker and Evokee, or lent some advantage to leaving an avatar out for long periods of time, what would you do? Something like the buffs of Avatar's Favor, or an entirely different mechanic? I'd like to hear what creative things the summoners among us come up with!

[Ninian]

Not specifically creative but, the longer you leave the avatar out, the shorter your BP timers would be would be very nice. Perhaps add MAB+ and STR+ or something as they're left out too. Maybe give access to new BPs as well.

[Malamasala]

I would have done it almost the same.

Pros:
Aura effect (choose in list of 10 effects available to all avatars)
-Perpetuation

Cons:
Summoner slow cast (takes twice as long to summon a new avatar, or cast a cure spell etc)

I.e. put the focus on the avatar, and lower the subjob reliance by force. Also of course no weaker BPs, or lowering of potency on using BPs. This would also motivate more people to melee, since spells become weaker.

[Arciel]

if it were up to me, I'd make Avatar Favor effects apply the maximum effect you can get from the moment you summon the avatar and leave the effect tier linked to smn. magic skill. and increase the radius to like 15 yalms.

Also since rage pacts are put at a disadvantage I'd say I'd also make it so that BP timer is reduced with favor up.. like by 15s.

..for the lore element and discouraging pet switching.. hmmm...
I'd make it so that if your avatar is out for more than 75s (current time it takes to hit max favor), the SMN gains access to a 3rd Blood Pact category..

since this is for creative fun...
Blood Pact: Favor
- either adds an additional effect onto the Favor, or grants a bonus effect to the avatar.
lasts for as long as Avatar's Favor is effective. all BP:Favors are 0 mp, but only 1 BP:Favor effect can be applied at a time on the avatar (the latest one overwrites the previously used one)
Lv55 - Astral Ward: damage taken -10% added to aura
Lv65 - Avatar Bless: recover's 20% of avatar max HP and grants avatar 5hp/tic regen.
Lv75 - Astral Breeze: 3hp/tic Regen, 1mp/tic Refresh and 1tp/tic Regain added to aura
Lv85 - Avatar Guard: removes status effects from avatar and grants avatar damage taken -15%
Lv95 - Astral Paling: Occasionally nullifies damage / magic damage added to aura
Lv99 - Avatar Cede: Convert avatars TP into Summoner's MP. inhibits avatar from gaining TP.

[Razushu]

I would have done it almost the same.

Pros:
Aura effect (choose in list of 10 effects available to all avatars)
-Perpetuation

Cons:
Summoner slow cast (takes twice as long to summon a new avatar, or cast a cure spell etc)

I.e. put the focus on the avatar, and lower the subjob reliance by force. Also of course no weaker BPs, or lowering of potency on using BPs. This would also motivate more people to melee, since spells become weaker.

Why would you want to motivate people to melee? What is the fixation on utilizing the WEAKEST aspect of a job a side that's not meant too be used in a serious manner/situation.

If I were designing a system for FF11 that stressed the bond between Evoker and Evokee

Infused Summoning

recast 5 minutes
duration 2hrs or avatar death

Summoner sacrifices health to empower currently summoned

drains 25hp per tick from summoner

grants following bonuses to avatar:
Blood pact Damage +20%
Melee damage +50%
regen +20
Haste +20%

grants Summoner the following bonuses:
Blood Boon +10
BP delay -10 passes cap

[Soundwave]

if it were up to me, I'd make Avatar Favor effects apply the maximum effect you can get from the moment you summon the avatar and leave the effect tier linked to smn. magic skill. and increase the radius to like 15 yalms.

Also since rage pacts are put at a disadvantage I'd say I'd also make it so that BP timer is reduced with favor up.. like by 15s.

..for the lore element and discouraging pet switching.. hmmm...
I'd make it so that if your avatar is out for more than 75s (current time it takes to hit max favor), the SMN gains access to a 3rd Blood Pact category..

since this is for creative fun...
Blood Pact: Favor
- either adds an additional effect onto the Favor, or grants a bonus effect to the avatar.
lasts for as long as Avatar's Favor is effective. all BP:Favors are 0 mp, but only 1 BP:Favor effect can be applied at a time on the avatar (the latest one overwrites the previously used one)
Lv55 - Astral Ward: damage taken -10% added to aura
Lv65 - Avatar Bless: recover's 20% of avatar max HP and grants avatar 5hp/tic regen.
Lv75 - Astral Breeze: 3hp/tic Regen, 1mp/tic Refresh and 1tp/tic Regain added to aura
Lv85 - Avatar Guard: removes status effects from avatar and grants avatar damage taken -15%
Lv95 - Astral Paling: Occasionally nullifies damage / magic damage added to aura
Lv99 - Avatar Cede: Convert avatars TP into Summoner's MP. inhibits avatar from gaining TP.

I like:) seems like T2 Favors with less suck.

[Malamasala]

Why would you want to motivate people to melee? What is the fixation on utilizing the WEAKEST aspect of a job a side that's not meant too be used in a serious manner/situation.

It is the ONLY thing you can do except stand and watch, that is part of your main job. And I'm all about using the main job and ignoring the sub since it has dominated too much in the past.

[Razushu]

It is the ONLY thing you can do except stand and watch, that is part of your main job. And I'm all about using the main job and ignoring the sub since it has dominated too much in the past.

If you're just standing and watching you're doing it wrong. Why ignore the subjob job it's there to enhance your role in a party, it's the reason it's there. I was never dominated by my subjob in the past I used it to expand my usefulness to a party.

[Karbuncle]

If you're just standing and watching you're doing it wrong. Why ignore the subjob job it's there to enhance your role in a party, it's the reason it's there. I was never dominated by my subjob in the past I used it to expand my usefulness to a party.

I can't honestly name 1 single time I've done anything on SMN outside of maybe throwing 1-2 -na spells between BPs, because well, i play with good people.

Truthfully, there are actually some mobs a SMN would be better of meleeing than dropping Cure IVs that you don't need if you're in a good group, or standing around with their thumb up their but waiting for BP Timer and desperately trying to find something to do to look productive.

This really only works in Abyssea though, Outside our terrible accuracy, terrible attack, and bad Staves really don't make it viable. That and inside Abyssea we have more "survivability", and Atmas to augment our fighting skills that wont completely gimp us (since Predator claws/etc Benefit from those DD atmas as well).

Its obvious not useful on every mob, and its obviously not going to match a real DD's potential. But if you're in a good group, and the mob doesn't have Super-WTF AoEs, Melee on SMN would actually be slightly better than sitting around looking for something to do.

Now, I'm not saying you neglect Cures if someone needs them, You would still perform that if your WHM came behind. a good SMN would know when to draw the line and pull back from the frontlines and help around the back. These are rare situations with a good WHM though...

Sometimes you're not always with a WHM though!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

on the topic of Avatar's Favor, I'd of made it the following-

"Avatar's Favor"
Dur:1hr recast:1min

I would remove the "Negative Impact" on the Avatar. The Aura should be a benefit the avatar gives from its presence, it should not weaken it, and further it should gain the actual benefit of the Aura itself too.

that being said, I would enhance the potency of some of the buffs, and change some around/improve them, also, also add some job traits that enhance Avatar's Favor, and 1 special JT at level 90+ that gives each favor another bonus. Like follows-

(These Effects are gained at level 90 when you get the Trait i talked about above)
Carbuncle - Adds Regain (1-2Tp/tic)
Fenrir - Adds Triple Attack (~5%)
Diabolos - Adds "Drain or Aspir" to Melee Attacks
Ifrit - Adds "Attack Bonus" (Scale % same as Dbl)
Shiva - Increases Magic Crit.rate/dmg (Same % as MAB)
Leviathan - Increases Cure Potency (+~20%)
Garuda - Adds Haste Effect (~+10% JA Haste)
Titan - Adds a -DT Effect (-10~15%)
Ramuh - Increases Critical hit Damage (Scales same as Crit-rate)

Bonus!
If Summoned with Avatar's Favor currently Active, Odin/Alexanders will perform different actions.

*"Odin's Favor" will grant a powerful buff to all stats(+30) and add a small chance to "death" enemies on striking (Similar to Twilight Scythe, Low Activation rate though 1-2%)

*"Alexander's Favor" will raise all Elemental Resistance to 200, and occasionally absorb Physical and Magical Damage (~10% Rate).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And how about a Job Trait specifically for Favor? if you can't remove the bad effects, maybe give us something like this

*JT "Celestial Favor"
55/65/75/85/95
-Decreases the penalty on avatar's when using "Avatar's Favor". Increases Stats in relation to Avatar.
*First Trait would reduce the penalty to attack/matk by 5%, each trait after would be 3 for 17 back. (Would still have a small penalty in effect)
*+5 To Stat related to Avatar's Element (bar fen/dia), +3 Each level after.
**Fenrir Would get an increase to all Stats @ +3 First Stage, +2 Each after
**Diabolos Would Increase MP, +30 first stage, +15 each after.

[Razushu]

I can't honestly name 1 single time I've done anything on SMN outside of maybe throwing 1-2 -na spells between BPs, because well, i play with good people.

Truthfully, there are actually some mobs a SMN would be better of meleeing than dropping Cure IVs that you don't need if you're in a good group, or standing around with their thumb up their but waiting for BP Timer and desperately trying to find something to do to look productive.

This really only works in Abyssea though, Outside our terrible accuracy, terrible attack, and bad Staves really don't make it viable. That and inside Abyssea we have more "survivability", and Atmas to augment our fighting skills that wont completely gimp us (since Predator claws/etc Benefit from those DD atmas as well).

Its obvious not useful on every mob, and its obviously not going to match a real DD's potential. But if you're in a good group, and the mob doesn't have Super-WTF AoEs, Melee on SMN would actually be slightly better than sitting around looking for something to do.

Now, I'm not saying you neglect Cures if someone needs them, You would still perform that if your WHM came behind. a good SMN would know when to draw the line and pull back from the frontlines and help around the back. These are rare situations with a good WHM though...

Sometimes you're not always with a WHM though!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

on the topic of Avatar's Favor, I'd of made it the following-

"Avatar's Favor"
Dur:1hr recast:1min

I would remove the "Negative Impact" on the Avatar. The Aura should be a benefit the avatar gives from its presence, it should not weaken it, and further it should gain the actual benefit of the Aura itself too.

that being said, I would enhance the potency of some of the buffs, and change some around/improve them, also, also add some job traits that enhance Avatar's Favor, and 1 special JT at level 90+ that gives each favor another bonus. Like follows-

(These Effects are gained at level 90 when you get the Trait i talked about above)
Carbuncle - Adds Regain (1-2Tp/tic)
Fenrir - Adds Triple Attack (~5%)
Diabolos - Adds "Drain or Aspir" to Melee Attacks
Ifrit - Adds "Attack Bonus" (Scale % same as Dbl)
Shiva - Increases Magic Crit.rate/dmg (Same % as MAB)
Leviathan - Increases Cure Potency (+~20%)
Garuda - Adds Haste Effect (~+10% JA Haste)
Titan - Adds a -DT Effect (-10~15%)
Ramuh - Increases Critical hit Damage (Scales same as Crit-rate)

Bonus!
If Summoned with Avatar's Favor currently Active, Odin/Alexanders will perform different actions.

*"Odin's Favor" will grant a powerful buff to all stats(+30) and add a small chance to "death" enemies on striking (Similar to Twilight Scythe, Low Activation rate though 1-2%)

*"Alexander's Favor" will raise all Elemental Resistance to 200, and occasionally absorb Physical and Magical Damage (~10% Rate).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And how about a Job Trait specifically for Favor? if you can't remove the bad effects, maybe give us something like this

*JT "Celestial Favor"
55/65/75/85/95
-Decreases the penalty on avatar's when using "Avatar's Favor". Increases Stats in relation to Avatar.
*First Trait would reduce the penalty to attack/matk by 5%, each trait after would be 3 for 17 back. (Would still have a small penalty in effect)
*+5 To Stat related to Avatar's Element (bar fen/dia), +3 Each level after.
**Fenrir Would get an increase to all Stats @ +3 First Stage, +2 Each after
**Diabolos Would Increase MP, +30 first stage, +15 each after.

I play with good people too and I still find myself very useful on SMN and it's very rare I'd find myself doing nothing between BP timers. I love your ideas for favor esp. the trait, I always thought Avatar's favor as is is weak enough that it could've been made a Job trait - the damage gimp.

[Soundwave]

All these ideas are really good I really like Karbuncle, very well thought out with odin/alex,

my idea for favor just with odin/alex

Odin's Favor - Odin will be a playable summon and grant a 5% quad attack bonus to allies.
Assault, retreat, release all accessible to the summoner.

Alexanders Favor - Alexander will be a playable summon and grant a bonus to elemental resistance and Death/Doom
Assault, retreat, release all accessible to the summoner.

[Malamasala]

I'm not going to sit down and count on it, but 5% quad does sound worse than 25% double.

[Soundwave]

I'm not going to sit down and count on it, but 5% quad does sound worse than 25% double.

I need to remember to put like 5% *****as an example*****

Not like what I say is 100% balanced......they are just there w/e the x amount could be "if" idea is added.

I think the goal of this thread is ideas not numbers.

[Malamasala]

Just saying that quad isn't that different from double that it would sound like a new thing. If you were to suggest something like WS bonus 10% it would at least sound new.

Best though would be if all get 1% chance to inflict Death :)

[Soundwave]

*shrug*****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4UdK0lBafM

[Dallas]

I'd only make 1 change to the current Favors. Remove the reset.

[Razushu]

I'd only make 1 change to the current Favors. Remove the reset.

And the charge up

[Dallas]

No, that would be stupid.

[Razushu]

No, that would be stupid.

why would that be stupid? because then it wouldn't favor your style of play? the reset isn't as bad as the 75 second warm up. the best thing they could do for favor is make it a 5 minute duration buff on a 1 minute recast that changes effect based on what avatar was out when it was used.

[Dallas]

Why would the best SMN DD use Favor? This ability is for weak SMN. I just happen to think you are too weak.

EDIT: You have failed in 2 posts to impress me to talk to you. Back to the emp weapon thread for you, I'm done here too.

[Razushu]

Why would the best SMN DD use Favor? This ability is for weak SMN. I just happen to think you are too weak.

EDIT: You have failed in 2 posts to impress me to talk to you. Back to the emp weapon thread for you, I'm done here too.

Your arrogance is actually enteraining

[Karbuncle]

Your arrogance is actually enteraining

I agree, mostly because its completely unfounded and he's a giant laughing stock everywhere.

"Avatar's Favor" isn't for weak SMNs, its a buff that supports your party. If they would just remove the negative effect on avatars I would really love it.

Problem being is that it nerfs our damage to slightly improve others. Unless you're hitting ~3/4 People who gain full benefit from the favor (I.E, Hitting Melee With Dbl Attack, or only Mages/cors with Shivas) you'd probably be better off not using it.

[Razushu]

I agree, mostly because its completely unfounded and he's a giant laughing stock everywhere.

"Avatar's Favor" isn't for weak SMNs, its a buff that supports your party. If they would just remove the negative effect on avatars I would really love it.

Problem being is that it nerfs our damage to slightly improve others. Unless you're hitting ~3/4 People who gain full benefit from the favor (I.E, Hitting Melee With Dbl Attack, or only Mages/cors with Shivas) you'd probably be better off not using it.

Some of the buffs are great I wish they'd just applied them as wards sometimes lol. The perp isn't even an issue any more

[Fyreus]

I would design it to strengthen the pet instead of weaken it or resetting its aura for actually doing something. Nothing fancy...

[Dallas]

"Avatar's Favor" isn't for weak SMNs, its a buff that supports your party. If they would just remove the negative effect on avatars I would really love it.

It provides a single buff that is decent ONLY if you stack SMN magic. If you cycle wards, it's useless. If you use ANY BPs, it resets, which is worthless. It reduces damage, which is worthless for SMN DD (aka me). It reduces perp which is useless for even subpar SMN.

If you stand around and do nothing but spam Cure 3, it's useful. When Favor was released, this was what SMN were doing. Only the worst players still play this way. I have underlined the only rule I think is unfair for the worst SMN.

[Razushu]

It provides a single buff that is decent ONLY if you stack SMN magic. If you cycle wards, it's useless. If you use ANY BPs, it resets, which is worthless. It reduces damage, which is worthless for SMN DD (aka me). It reduces perp which is useless for even subpar SMN.


You mentioned yourself twice there

[Covenant]

I enjoy the balanced approach to avatar's favor as they are now. Slightly weakening an avatar to boost party performance. Alliance buffs are game breaking, imagine if summoner got it how long before scholars and other want their own versions. As it is scholar in campaign cheat with accession and cures/buffs.
I did really like the idea of lowering bloodpact timers the longer the avatars are out as long as it gets cap to 50%. Enmity alone will insure that a multi-bloodpacting summoner will ear dirt if not careful.
Addtional effects I'd like to see to avatar favor however, would be a natural elemental resistance ala bar spells. And/or weather effects ala a scholars storm spell. I'd go one step further when matching avatar to current day and weather effects, by adding an partial "absorption" of magical damage.
For example, having Ifrit "out" would gi e the normal double attack percentage, but would also have a barfira or barfira II effect. As well as, boost all fire element accuracy/damage as if under a storm spell. If players match firedays AND fire weather, than any fire damage direct at them has a chance to be not only severely weaken but absorbed.
Obviously, opposite elements would cause double damage as a game balance.

[Malamasala]

It provides a single buff that is decent ONLY if you stack SMN magic.

I'm sorry, but favors are not wards. You are not counting skill over cap, you are counting total skill. So even without equipping for it, you'll at 90 be far superior to a max decked out 75, and already at that time it was quite moderate bonus (12% DA).

It is more that if you were to use Ifrit for that good DA, you are stuck with the sucktastic Flaming Punch or whatever it is called instead of predator claws. SE should have made Favors like rolls. Pick one and go with it, instead of locking it up with avatars so crazy people have their "DD avatar Ifrit... that can't DD himself" and their "Nuke avatar Shiva... that luckily can nuke herself but doesn't get the MAB bonus and gets a -damage penalty".

Why SE can't make a single thing correct with Summoner is beyond me. Or rather it is explained by none in the staff playing the job.

[Razushu]

I'm sorry, but favors are not wards. You are not counting skill over cap, you are counting total skill. So even without equipping for it, you'll at 90 be far superior to a max decked out 75, and already at that time it was quite moderate bonus (12% DA).

It is more that if you were to use Ifrit for that good DA, you are stuck with the sucktastic Flaming Punch or whatever it is called instead of predator claws. SE should have made Favors like rolls. Pick one and go with it, instead of locking it up with avatars so crazy people have their "DD avatar Ifrit... that can't DD himself" and their "Nuke avatar Shiva... that luckily can nuke herself but doesn't get the MAB bonus and gets a -damage penalty".

Why SE can't make a single thing correct with Summoner is beyond me. Or rather it is explained by none in the staff playing the job.

They Could have added them as JAs that the SMN uses on a 1 minute recast and a max of 2 can be applied at once. You know Kind of a "As recognition of the growing bond between the avatars and you they have bestowed upon you the ability to support your party using their powers"

[Malamasala]

The sad part is that the existing favors are 100% as people suggested it... I was of course voicing my opinion against it, since they obviously missed how bad it is to make favors depend on avatars. But this is how it goes when SE trusts the majority, which have always consisted of people who have better ideas than knowledge of cause and effect.

SE would do better if they only listened to me. But I'm not saying I'm the only one with good ideas, I'm justing saying my supply of bad ideas are very small.