Summoner update ~ new job ability "sacrifice"

[Covenant]

This new job ability "Sacrifice" when used by a Summoner, cause a loss of given abilities(such as ATT, DEF, ACC, TP gain, etc) by a certain percentage and gives this to the summoner pet. Basically, weaken a players melee ability while strengthening a pets. I guess, you can call it a "summoner's stance".
This could add to the versatility of the job somewhat and play style. Most Summoners, tend to hold back anyway, whether from fear of AOE's or other reasons.

[Quedari]

Except there's already a WHM spell called "Sacrifice". Even so, SMN doesn't get much in the way of melee ability unless you sacrifice a lot of -perp and/or refresh gear.

[Dallas]

We still don't, even if you sacrifice that gear. We get modest haste gear and the 2H update.

[Covenant]

Which was my point..if a summoner doesn't want to melee, and probably shouldn't the few extra stats given up to their pets could increase a pets power. "Sacrificing" 10-20% of a Summoners melee potential, allowing them to remain at a distance, while boosting their pets by the same 10-20% amount could be awesome. By the way when I name something in quotes, that's just a filler name. I'm open to name suggestions, actual numbers, and debate.

[Dallas]

So, basically, you want to penalize summoners who get any of the "big 3" staves?

[Covenant]

No, not penalize...this is a job ability to be used as a summoner sees fit. If your gonna "stand back" why not feed your pet extra power?

[Dallas]

Why not just buff the pet? To people too lazy to get a melee staff, it makes no difference... right?

[Malamasala]

If you stand back, you are probably not in melee gear, and it would be a bad ability. If you are up meleeing in melee gear, you probably wouldn't want this ability to ruin your chances at melee.

I don't see any moment anyone would use this. Unless you are talking taking natural stats, like giving 200 staff skill to the avatar's "staff" attacks. (Well, they are too slow to be 1 handed swings)

[Covenant]

Hmm...I'm reading the post I'm not understanding what people are talking about? If u want to melee you WOULDN'T use this ability. If however, you fear either AOE damage/stat issues such as cerebus "gates of hade", feeding mobs TP, or enimity issue...why not stand back and boost your pets ability?
Game mechanic/programming. This ability could sap any "melee" stats(individually or group) of summoner. I'm talking ACC for things like multi-hit moves such as predator, or even MaB for spell damage.
Let's try to rephrase it..if a standard summoner formula is 50/50 summoner and pet. When a player stand in support position and use this move the formula now becomes 25/75 to the pet. Since a summoner is standing back and not fighting..the loss of their melee strength is negated anyway. This is similar to many other moves such as a warriors defender and berserk job ability. Where your pushing either ATT or def up while losing it's opposite.

[Dallas]

Just learn how to melee. Problem solved.

[Razushu]

Or maybe just make it a job trait available at level 70ish that gives our avatars a bonus to their stats based on 50% of our total stats capping at say 40-50ish per stat, nice bonus but no one could call it overpowered

[Razushu]

Just learn how to melee. Problem solved.
I think everyone knows how to melee it's just not usually advisible on certain jobs

[Dallas]

SMN is not one of those jobs.

[Razushu]

It's the definition of "one of those jobs"

[Dallas]

I advise it, and I've been succeeding at it for 5-6 years. It's gotten so easy, that anyone can follow me now.

Of course, you might convince people to take advice from a naysayer. Good luck convincing them success can't exist.

[Razushu]

I advise it, and I've been succeeding at it for 5-6 years. It's gotten so easy, that anyone can follow me now.

Of course, you might convince people to take advice from a naysayer. Good luck convincing them success can't exist.
I fail to see how I'm a naysayer I'm just pointing out any of the numerous reasons for a SMN to stay back line. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything any SMN friends I have are of equivalent or greater skill than me and they would agree with me. I find myself wondering what your successes are. Seeing how hard it is for a RDM to be accepted frontline, it begs the question who's letting you melee and on what? Does everything in your LS melee? It's just seeing how SMN is the job in game least suited to melee your parties must be melee free for alls.
Even if I was trying to convince anyone I would hope it'd be relatively easy seeing as how one look at a job including SMN will tell you which position in battle a SMN should take(behind the avatar) most of the time. there are exceptions to this but for SMN it's few and far between

[Soundwave]

So if I'm getting this right, this JA is mainly just to boost your pet due to a selected mobs AoE?? It sounds mob dependent to me.

[Razushu]

So if I'm getting this right, this JA is mainly just to boost your pet due to a selected mobs AoE?? It sounds mob dependent to me.
It's more taking stats from the SMN that aren't needed and adding them to the pet i.e the player isn't going near the mob anyway so siphon STR and DEX etc. and add it to the Avatar atleast thats how it looks to me

[Malamasala]

Seeing how hard it is for a RDM to be accepted frontline, it begs the question who's letting you melee and on what?

RDM is expected to cast spells, SMNs are expected to trigger BPs. The question if melee is good or not, is the same question as if you are constantly rotating avatars or not. For all intents and purposes, a SMN is a weak DRK. Of course that is nothing to be proud of, but don't lump it together with WHM, SCH, BLM, BRD.

[Dallas]

there are exceptions to this but for SMN it's few and far between

Recently (within the last week), I have meleed:
Exp/skillup parties
Abyssea alliances
Abyssea NM farming
Nyzul, including all bosses
Magian trials
Atomos fight
Fenrir fight (just avoid the 2hr)
VNMs both inside and outside Abyssea

Where you see "a few exceptions," I am out there meleeing everything any other DD would melee. And just to skunk the anti-melee crowd a little more, I did get 1-shot last night by a NM mage. For 5 minutes in a weakened state, I played as strong as a non-melee. That's the other way to interpret your advice: treat *every* minute like you just got pwned.

[Razushu]

RDM is expected to cast spells, SMNs are expected to trigger BPs. The question if melee is good or not, is the same question as if you are constantly rotating avatars or not. For all intents and purposes, a SMN is a weak DRK. Of course that is nothing to be proud of, but don't lump it together with WHM, SCH, BLM, BRD.
Why shouldn't it be lumped together with WHM, SCH, BLM, BRD we share one quite important thing with them LACK OF MELEE TRAITS if by weak DRK you mean nothing like a DRK remotely then yes i agree with you.

[Razushu]

Recently (within the last week), I have meleed:
still wondering who is letting you melee? And if everything in your groups melee?

Exp/skillup parties
Abyssea alliances
nice try but weak ass mobs are generally picked for this type of thing.


Abyssea NM farming
Nyzul, including all bosses
Atomos fight
Fenrir fight (just avoid the 2hr)
VNMs both inside and outside Abyssea
fair enough but you're still placing yourself in danger to contribute more and keep your avatar out when you can do the same thing backline i.e contribute more give party buffs we lots of avatars and some of the have useful buffs and refresh and -perp gear solves MP very easily and if your solo meleeing causes all kinds of problems if you need to resummon


Magian trials
again easy prey is what people shoot for here anyway so if your solo or lowman on these things everybodies probably meleeing



Where you see "a few exceptions," I am out there meleeing everything any other DD would melee. And just to skunk the anti-melee crowd a little more, I did get 1-shot last night by a NM mage. For 5 minutes in a weakened state, I played as strong as a non-melee. That's the other way to interpret your advice: treat *every* minute like you just got pwned.

Yes you do melee but it's weak melee SMN melee is weak as hell you've posted your TP gear and you don't use Att or Acc just haste and -emnity so you're only going to be hitting around as hard as I would just faster and when you see that big ol' 0 dmg on myrkr you're not really contributing that much to the group with melee. Any group would benefit more from extra buffs cycled from avatar than they are gonna get from your melee.
What do you BP in weapon wise do you swap it and sacrifice your TP or just skip the weapon swap and slightly gimp your BP to save TP for Myrkr?
Of course you got one-shot your up front on the softest job in the game it's gonna happen, what about when you take damage but don't die?
Any melee worth it's spot will take hate atleast once in a group unless things are very strictly controlled who heals you?
Is the WHM wasting their MP on you or are you wasting melee strikes on stopping to heal yourself?

[Malamasala]

Why shouldn't it be lumped together with WHM, SCH, BLM, BRD we share one quite important thing with them LACK OF MELEE TRAITS if by weak DRK you mean nothing like a DRK remotely then yes i agree with you.

You can't lump them together because Summoners don't cast magic every single second. That is like saying PLD and DRK is the same job group because both wear the same armors, have MP and melee monsters.

A melee SMN and a melee DRK are played on the surface identical. Engage, melee, do not stop and cast long slow spells. Naturally the jobs differ on closer inspection, like pacts, pets, dark magic, staffs, scythes, etc. But you can't exactly compare two jobs in FFXI and ever end up saying "yea, they are the same job".

Melee SMN can also be compared to melee BLUs, except BLUs actually casts more spells than DRKs do or SMNs do. BLU is actually a better job to lump up with WHM and the crowd. Even if it has one or two traits it gained from spell sets.

[Malamasala]

Any group would benefit more from extra buffs cycled from avatar than they are gonna get from your melee.

I'd just want to point out that there are plenty of group combinations that wouldn't benefit more from buffs. It is up to the party leader to be sane enough to make parties that work with a Summoner. Just how you can't just pick random jobs for a COR party.

I personally tend to end up in mage/mule/leftover parties. These usually only benefit from like 1 ward, or there are 2 people benefitting from hastega and 2 people benefitting from MAB and I just say "screw this, I'm not putting 50 MP per person to make them deal slightly more damage." Either you give me 4+ people wanting buffs, or I'm going to rage only.

[Razushu]

You can't lump them together because Summoners don't cast magic every single second. That is like saying PLD and DRK is the same job group because both wear the same armors, have MP and melee monsters.

A melee SMN and a melee DRK are played on the surface identical. Engage, melee, do not stop and cast long slow spells. Naturally the jobs differ on closer inspection, like pacts, pets, dark magic, staffs, scythes, etc. But you can't exactly compare two jobs in FFXI and ever end up saying "yea, they are the same job".

Melee SMN can also be compared to melee BLUs, except BLUs actually casts more spells than DRKs do or SMNs do. BLU is actually a better job to lump up with WHM and the crowd. Even if it has one or two traits it gained from spell sets.

SMN is far more easily lumped in with WHM, BLM, SCH and BRD than DRK. The only comparision we have with DRK is that there's groups of people that find us useless. We share nothing with DRK other than the Game we inhabit. They have the good native WS, good melee traits, good melee abilities and they even have a trait that gives them TP from casting. Now point to that list and show me how they're the same.

Please tell me your not trying to imply SMN has more reason to be up front than BLU. Again BLU gets good native WS, good melee traits(depending on what they set), good melee abilities. Which leaves them more comparable to DRK than SMN ever could be. Even WHM trounces SMN as a DD they also get good native WS and now with Afflatus Misery + Auspice they get Enlight and Subtle Blow plus an acc bonus when they miss with it active. Not to mention they can Dual wield thier main weapon type further increasing both thier DoT and WS frequency if they have and OAT weapon off hand or a K.Club. Now before you say if they're meleeing they're not performing their main job role, neither is SMN seeing as it's a DD/Support class if your meleeing your not rotating avatar's/buffs your just performing 1/2 a SMNs role.

[Razushu]

I'd just want to point out that there are plenty of group combinations that wouldn't benefit more from buffs. It is up to the party leader to be sane enough to make parties that work with a Summoner. Just how you can't just pick random jobs for a COR party.

I personally tend to end up in mage/mule/leftover parties. These usually only benefit from like 1 ward, or there are 2 people benefitting from hastega and 2 people benefitting from MAB and I just say "screw this, I'm not putting 50 MP per person to make them deal slightly more damage." Either you give me 4+ people wanting buffs, or I'm going to rage only.

If your in that kind of party as part of an alliance as a SMN that's a waste of a SMN. 50mp isn't alot why not spend it it's not like mp is hard to come by nowadays anyway

[Dallas]

when you see that big ol' 0 dmg on myrkr I see a big ol' 1500mp on Myrkr. Right after that, I see 900 damage from crits. Know your weapons! (know your mobs too, nothing fought by abyssea alliances are EP @ 90)

I don't wear all the acc/att gear because I deal insane damage that Garuda can't match. I own the gear, I'm just too smart to wear it. I don't use my levelled /SAM either.

You see, your problem is you are trying to invent a scenario that doesn't exist. If I were the 7th wheel in a pt full of bandwagon jobs pimped to the ears, they'd just break down the pt and make an alliance. I'm also pimped to the ears.

There is no situation that throwing an extra SMN, especially one that isn't afraid to bring everything at the NM, is a bad thing. I am one of those SMN.

My melee weapon is better than most people carry. If everyone is meleeing, I'm meleeing. Whenever we proc red, I am triggering aftermath and zerging. Whatever the BLM and RDM sleeps, I'll go TP on. I still die less than everyone else.

This train took off 6 years ago. You can't uninvent melee SMN, you can only catch up.

[Razushu]

I see a big ol' 1500mp on Myrkr. Right after that, I see 900 damage from crits.

In Abyssea show me that outside Abyssea, everyone can do that kind of damage in abyssea I can do 700+ Full swings with gimped staff skill and a Fay crozier. 1500mp? nice, serious but do you need all that well maybe you do. I don't because I have a perp/refresh set that saves me 280mp a minute with Garuda out.


I don't wear all the acc/att gear because I deal insane damage that Garuda can't match. I own the gear, I'm just too smart to wear it. I don't use my levelled /SAM either.

In Abyssea. And if not does that not tell you something about melee SMN? If you can't afford to gear yourself like a DD because you'll die what you have is a pet thats meant to be alone beside the monster. By all means melee if you want but don't try to tell the world that the only way to play SMN is as a faux DD.


You see, your problem is you are trying to invent a scenario that doesn't exist. If I were the 7th wheel in a pt full of bandwagon jobs pimped to the ears, they'd just break down the pt and make an alliance. I'm also pimped to the ears.

There's no amount of pimped to the ears jobs that won't benefit more from buffs than kitten level melee. You're not pimped to the ears, by your own admission you can't gear all out because hate=death for a SMN you can't even make use of /SAM. But then again this is all in abyssea so maybe outside of abyssea you do low enough damage that the mob won't mind being tickled to death by you with hasso up.


There is no situation that throwing an extra SMN, especially one that isn't afraid to bring everything at the NM, is a bad thing. I am one of those SMN.

When I fight an NM I bring everything a SMN excels at to the fight. there are MANY situations where "one of those SMN" is an exceedingly bad thing.


My melee weapon is better than most people carry. If everyone is meleeing, I'm meleeing. Whenever we proc red, I am triggering aftermath and zerging. Whatever the BLM and RDM sleeps, I'll go TP on. I still die less than everyone else.

Of course it is it's an empyrean. Of course if everyones meleeing go for it if I saw a BLM whacking the mob with its staff I might be tempted to. Why are you attacking slept mobs? Of course you do you hide behind the mobs knee and tickle it, I never die in a group, well almost never I can't even remember the last time I died in a group and I still throw my whole self into the fight DD(from avatar), Rage BPs, cycled wards, subheals, removing debuffs and emergency sleeps/kited adds


This train took off 6 years ago. You can't uninvent melee SMN, you can only catch up.

Less a train, more of a tonka ride on tractor for all the pace it has. No one is trying to uninvent it it's there and if you find it fun go for it I melee on EPs all the time, you however are trying to uninvent the flexible style of play that SMN excels at. There's no need to catch up at all, you act like you invented a style of play that saved SMN from the abyss. SMN is fine without meleeing we do fine damage from avatar alone we can buff an entire party and still have enough downtime to back up the party in most ways that pop up.

[Malamasala]

SMN is far more easily lumped in with WHM, BLM, SCH and BRD than DRK.

Why do you insist on listing all things DRK has but not SMN, but then don't do it on the mage jobs?

Like how can you lump SMN with SCH if SCH has so many white mage spells and black mage spells when SMN has zero? If you attemp the "you can sub it" route, I'll just say I could sub DRK and lower the difference to DRK in comparisons.

SMN isn't like any job. But if you walk up and melee, DRK and DRG will be the closest jobs to compare to. If you go hide in the back you are more like a SCH. I happen to be talking about the SMN up front.


Again BLU gets good native WS, good melee traits(depending on what they set), good melee abilities.

That is what the thread is all about. SMN is made for melee based on what we can and can't do, but we do not get any WSes to help us, any armors to help us, or any traits to help is. SMN is like DRK, but they forgot to add anything else than tier 2 nukes to it. (Not saying SMN has tier 2 nukes, saying what we have is about as useful for melee as tier 2 nukes)

[Dallas]

Hey Raz, are you seriously trying to school me with underlevelled staff skill and a Fay Crozier using Full Swing? 700 damage from a WS when I just got done saying my regular melee hits (critical + aftermath) are 900 damage?

I just threw out a single Full Swing and did 1845 damage in Abyssea. The WS neither crits, nor gains the effect of Aftermath. How confident are you that you know what SMN melee potential is?

[Razushu]

Hey Raz, are you seriously trying to school me with underlevelled staff skill and a Fay Crozier using Full Swing? 700 damage from a WS when I just got done saying my regular melee hits (critical + aftermath) are 900 damage?

I just threw out a single Full Swing and did 1845 damage in Abyssea. The WS neither crits, nor gains the effect of Aftermath. How confident are you that you know what SMN melee potential is?
School you? No I'm merely pointing out the ridiculous damage ANYTHING can do in Abyssea. I asked youn to show me anything near the numbers you claim outside Abyssea.

[Razushu]

Why do you insist on listing all things DRK has but not SMN, but then don't do it on the mage jobs?

Like how can you lump SMN with SCH if SCH has so many white mage spells and black mage spells when SMN has zero? If you attemp the "you can sub it" route, I'll just say I could sub DRK and lower the difference to DRK in comparisons.

SMN isn't like any job. But if you walk up and melee, DRK and DRG will be the closest jobs to compare to. If you go hide in the back you are more like a SCH. I happen to be talking about the SMN up front.



That is what the thread is all about. SMN is made for melee based on what we can and can't do, but we do not get any WSes to help us, any armors to help us, or any traits to help is. SMN is like DRK, but they forgot to add anything else than tier 2 nukes to it. (Not saying SMN has tier 2 nukes, saying what we have is about as useful for melee as tier 2 nukes)

I'm talking about SMN upfront and when you compare SMN to DRK, SMN looks scarily like a backline. I'm not talking about spells what I'm talking about is that SMN has a job has 0 things going for it as a melee no job has less going for them melee than SMN. Comparing DRK to SMN up front is like comparing DRK to WHM as a healer. Now we're like DRG too? Yeah right, please stop comparing a job that was designed for backline to dedicated melees it's just silly. We'd be more like a BLM or SCH deciding to just walk up and melee not a DRK. Sure you can /DRK but then a DRK can /SAM which is a melee/melee combo which will dance all over a mage/melee combo.

Yes SMN is unique, but it's our versatility that makes us unique not our B staff skill and literally that's all we have going for us melee. We are like not other job because we can DD(Avatar) buff a party(avatar) at the same time all the while leaving us with enough time to fully utilise our subjob to support the party. If youn want to melee go ahead just don't pretend we're the same as a dedicated melee or even need to melee to be useful to the party. Sure you can just use Garuda spam Predator Claws and hastega ever 5 minutes and have the time to melee but then the party would be losing the buffs that were more than likely expected of you.

SMN is in no way melee based in design it's purely pet based in design. They didn't forget to add WS and melee traits there not meant to be there in the first place. You're like a fish complaining about where it's wings and feathers are.

[Dallas]

School you? No I'm merely pointing out the ridiculous damage ANYTHING can do in Abyssea. I asked youn to show me anything near the numbers you claim outside Abyssea.

To be clear, NO, you have no idea what this job is capable of. You do 1/3 the melee damage at 1/2 the speed of me. I can't take you seriously, so go cap your staff skill, get that 75 DMG, 2% Haste staff, and tell me your Retribution numbers.

[Razushu]

To be clear, NO, you have no idea what this job is capable of. You do 1/3 the melee damage at 1/2 the speed of me. I can't take you seriously, so go cap your staff skill, get that 75 DMG, 2% Haste staff, and tell me your Retribution numbers.

OMG! I'm not trying to get into a melee p*ssing contest with you I'm merely stating that
ANYTHING Can do big numbers in Abyssea(mega bolded because you're missing the point)from atma alone, so you can claim all the OMGWTFBBQ!11!! DAMAGE you want but as soon as you type "in Abyssea" in the same sentence it becomes moot.

I'm fully aware of what SMN is capable. In a party I'm a great DD/support job and solo I'm an amazing soloist, I've BP kited manys a NM to hell. I'm aware of what a SMN can do melee really I am but I find myself unimpressed wwithout atmas. With atmas I say nice but then anyjob can equip the same atmas and every job has more going for it melee than SMN natively or from gear/subjob

[Soundwave]

Thanks for the setup

[Dallas]

I'm merely stating that
ANYTHING Can do big numbers in Abyssea

Then why can't you? 700 is pathetic.

[Razushu]

Then why can't you? 700 is pathetic.
Are you deficient? Seriously I tell you that neither geared nor skilled for WS i hit for 700, not to gloat merely to point out your numbers aren't special and all you can say is it's pathetic? I know it's pathetic compared to a real melees WS power but as I said I am neither geared nor skilled for melee. I think it's kinda sad that you can't see past numbers here and when some are posted you see it as a challenge and ignore the rest of the post.

I'll repeat myself ANYTHING CAN DEAL HIGH NUMBERS IN ABYSSEA, it doesn't matter what you claim you can put out in side because any job can match/surpass it similarly geared with ease and there's no way you'll come close to the same damage outside Abyssea. By all means melee, but don't try to pretend like it's an essential part of SMN or the best/most efficent way to play

[Soundwave]

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0903/derailed-train-derailed-thread-demotivational-poster-1237346157.jpg

[Razushu]

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0903/derailed-train-derailed-thread-demotivational-poster-1237346157.jpg
They started it /cry

[Dallas]

Are you deficient? I deal three times the damage as you at twice the speed. That means I deal damage 6 times as fast as you. By definition, the best person is not deficient.

Your inability to master staff skill in no way makes you an authority on melee SMN. You certainly show an extreme lack of predictive ability if you thought your lack of knowledge on the subject was enough to sway a 6-year melee smn veteran.

Guess what? Melee still exists today.

[Razushu]

I deal three times the damage as you at twice the speed. That means I deal damage 6 times as fast as you. By definition, the best person is not deficient.

Your inability to master staff skill in no way makes you an authority on melee SMN. You certainly show an extreme lack of predictive ability if you thought your lack of knowledge on the subject was enough to sway a 6-year melee smn veteran.

Guess what? Melee still exists today.

I meant mentally Deficient, which your lack of ability to comprehend simple english and interpret context seems to point to it. First off you deal that much damage with applied avatars the gulf closes a good bit when you realise a BIG chunk of DD comes from the avatars and the fact that cycling certain buffs will increase the over all DPS of the party, which they won't be getting from you, so again the gulf closes a little more. See where you do more damage I am a better support character it balanaces out really. The real difference comes in the form of invites, if people(the ones on my server anyway) are inviting frontline DDs they'll pick one of the 100+ SAMs, DRGs etc. that are hanging around Port Jeuno over a SMN any day because it's the safer, more effective, more powerful option, where as dd/support SMN holds it's own against the other buffing jobs nicely only thing I get turned down for on SMN is seal farming because of our lack of procs.

It's not inability to master staff skill it will get capped eventually but it doesn't hold my SMN back WHATSOEVER so it takes a backburner to things like gearing my SMN and leveling/gearing BST and WHM or even just doing something fun in game. I have more than enough knowledge on the subject 3 year veteran of SMN here and never really had a problem being useful in a fight.

Melee exists for every job but there's jobs that are designed towards it and jobs that aren't, you sir are playing a job that isn't.

[Soundwave]

They started it /cry

lol <3!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Dallas]

Hey, guess what? I caught at least 4 delusions. I'm going to ignore all attempts by you to compare yourself to melee SMN. Everyone knows you have no idea what that number is.

1) You cycle buffs. This means your pets are NEVER buffed, and your pettp is ALWAYS 0. My pets > your pets.
2) You can't cycle buffs AND melee with your pet. Pathing and summoning time alone reduce this by half. Common delusion, but we all know it's false.
3) My buffs hit 2 party members that in your setup do nothing or get unsummoned.
4) 6-man colibri parties are dead, so just L-O-L at the thought of someone sending /tells to SAM in Jeuno to fill a party

Don't worry about what this all means. I certainly don't care about "cycling buffs." Have fun on WHM!

[Razushu]

Hey, guess what? I caught at least 4 delusions. I'm going to ignore all attempts by you to compare yourself to melee SMN. Everyone knows you have no idea what that number is.

1) You cycle buffs. This means your pets are NEVER buffed, and your pettp is ALWAYS 0. My pets > your pets.
2) You can't cycle buffs AND melee with your pet. Pathing and summoning time alone reduce this by half. Common delusion, but we all know it's false.
3) My buffs hit 2 party members that in your setup do nothing or get unsummoned.
4) 6-man colibri parties are dead, so just L-O-L at the thought of someone sending /tells to SAM in Jeuno to fill a party

Don't worry about what this all means. I certainly don't care about "cycling buffs." Have fun on WHM!

1) Manacede, merits, Caller's Spats and Caller's Pendant Avatar TP is not an issue. pets are equal

2) You can't cycle buffs and melee yourself. pathing is not always an issue and depending on the buffs I'm cycling the same avatar might be out for 90secs or so, so they do sometimes melee.

3) How are you claiming to apply more than one buff and still think points 1 & 2 are valid for me and not you. No avatar has more than 2 buffs and Garuda the best DD avatar only has hastega which is also our most useful buff. No matter your setup Garuda can only ever get haste and lol shadows, Which means your party is only getting these or your cycling avatars giving more buff and sacrificing melee DoT to fully buff a party.

4) Your server must be dead I can't run through Port Jeuno without seeing XXXNM X/4 DD <can I have it>. also my brother can't afk in PJ for more than 20 mins with getting a /t <invite> he's a SAM btw.

I certainly don't care about weak melee have fun playing dress up as a DD, I try to save the make believe for Halloween.

[Malamasala]

1) Manacede, merits, Caller's Spats and Caller's Pendant Avatar TP is not an issue. pets are equal

You use manacede? I avoid it like the plague unless I'm in abyssea. It is about as MP efficient as AM magic for BLM. (The difference of course being that a BLM can cast more often on other nukes instead of attempting one a minute)

[Razushu]

You use manacede? I avoid it like the plague unless I'm in abyssea. It is about as MP efficient as AM magic for BLM. (The difference of course being that a BLM can cast more often on other nukes instead of attempting one a minute)

I have MORE than enough MP from my perp/refresh set, sublimation and elemental siphon so why wouldn't I use it my MP never goes below 70% or 60% if I've been particularly busy and my siphon/sublimation recast is just about up. Seriously I'm rolling in MP why would I not manacede every time it's up and I'm nuking

[Dallas]

Poor Raz, thinks that <pettp> = merit BPs and Blood Pact: Ward = buffs only.

Whispering Wind:
0 pettp: 241 healed
300 pettp: 508 healed

I can spam wards with only ONE avatar.

[Razushu]

Poor Raz, thinks that <pettp> = merit BPs and Blood Pact: Ward = buffs only.

Whispering Wind:
0 pettp: 241 healed
300 pettp: 508 healed

I can spam wards with only ONE avatar.

Poor me? Why Spam Whispering wind if the the party doesn't need it and if the healing situation is that desperate you're a liability front line. I know exactly what <pettp> is for and I know what every ward at our disposal can do and when it's useful. Please stop trying to tout the merits of the buffing side of lol melee SMN. garuda has Hastega, lol shadows and curaga. one has a 5 minute duration, one is just lame and the other shouldn't be needed that much.

Congratulations you pointed out that leaving an avatar out to melee can boost it's healing wards any one can leave it out melee doesn't magically allow this. If I was using Whispering Wind/Spring Water or Healing Ruby II with anywhere near the frequency where it matters chance's are I've found myself in a role as Healer(happens to the best of us lol) in which case I'll be letting the avatar melee for TP since they're free anyway and I have more than enough MP to fulltime cure and BP spam so I might as well add some damage too.

[Dallas]

Make up your mind. Is SMN going to take billions of damage in the front line or is Whispering Wind useless?

[Razushu]

Make up your mind. Is SMN going to take billions of damage in the front line or is Whispering Wind useless?
Whispering wind spam is useless or you have yourself a monster SMN shouldn't be near it

[Dallas]

Yeah, 500 damage is SOOO dangerous. LOL. Wimp.

[Razushu]

Yeah, 500 damage is SOOO dangerous. LOL. Wimp.

LOL fool if the monster is so successfully beating the hell out of your party that the main heal needs you to spam Whispering wind(this is ignoring the fact that only the 1st of the spammed WWs wil be 300%TP) to keep the party alive
Yes the lowest def/HP/VIT job in the game shouldn't be on it or even near it. My HP is 800 less when charging sublimation that kind of atack will leave a SMN with my HP at 300-96 MP.

[Dallas]

A real SMN isn't using /SCH for MP.

[Razushu]

A real SMN isn't using /SCH for MP.

I don't use /sch just for MP it has many applications but I'm sure a L33T SMN like you knows what they are

[Dallas]

No, I don't. It doesn't have Banish, Dia, Cure 4, or red procs. It only has subpar refresh.

[Razushu]

No, I don't. It doesn't have Banish, Dia, Cure 4, or red procs. It only has subpar refresh.

MP still hasn't become an issue for me since i last told you so so it's a moot point still. It has usable Sleep and Dispel, AoE-able -nas, Buffs which include capped stoneskin with no extra gear needed. Banish, Dia, Cure 4 if these are needed I... wait for it... /WHM. Red procs? shouldn't the undoubtedly present WHM and/or WAR have those covered if not see Banish, Dia, Cure 4.

[Dallas]

So, your utility includes only partying with a WAR, WHM, but not a BLM?

LOL

[Razushu]

So, your utility includes only partying with a WAR, WHM, but not a BLM?

LOL

Why because I said usable sleep? Yeah because a BLM is never busy and will stand in a party for hours on end praying for sleep to be needed or is this about procs?

[Dallas]

Oh, were we talking about a Frog exp pt in Abyssea - La thiene?

[Razushu]

Oh, were we talking about a Frog exp pt in Abyssea - La thiene?

Can you feel the left side of your body, do you know what day it is? I'm starting to worry you're having the slowest striking stroke in history.

[Dallas]

I was thinking of a place where it wasn't complete incompetence to have to deal with adds more than once. Apparently, we aren't talking about good players.

[Razushu]

I was thinking of a place where it wasn't complete incompetence to have to deal with adds more than once. Apparently, we aren't talking about good players.

Did I say this way a regular occurrence? No I just asid it was one of the many things I can be ready for. But seriously how can you imply I deal with poor player's when they let you melee on SMN?

[Dallas]

Poor /SCH. The one time competent players get adds is during the pull. If your BLM isn't asleep, he is sleeping the adds.

[Razushu]

Poor /SCH. The one time competent players get adds is during the pull. If your BLM isn't asleep, he is sleeping the adds.

Did I say thats the only reason I /SCH? No but your desperate need to feel right has focused on one of the less used abilities of my SMN and ignored the rest

[Dallas]

I know, you do some sort of mystery package of support role jobs that does not include measurable curing.

[Razushu]

I know, you do some sort of mystery package of support role jobs that does not include measurable curing.

I can cure well with /WHM if I feel the event is gonna require heavier cures I'll use that. If I think cures are mostly covered I'll /SCH for AoE of -nas and regens and I'll help keep the melees HPs topped up while everythings going smoothly to make the WHMs job easier.

[Dallas]

So going back to the ridiculous "500 damage we're all gonna die!" argument, you are perfectly fine using a subjob that doesn't make you a liability? Why didn't you say you knew how to not be a wimp?!?

[Razushu]

So going back to the ridiculous "500 damage we're all gonna die!" argument, you are perfectly fine using a subjob that doesn't make you a liability? Why didn't you say you knew how to not be a wimp?!?

Of course I'm not a wimp, just smart. 500 damage isn't that much(ignoring the fact its >62.5% my Max HP), my point was if something is doing the kind of damage where a ~500HP AoE heal is repeatedly needed to help the WHM keep the party a float a job like SMN shouldn't really be near the Mob

[Dallas]

Wimp in spirit, then? I like you. Consistent.

[Razushu]

Wimp in spirit, then? I like you. Consistent.

No not wimp, smart. I've died on more than one occasion to help a party, the difference is I keep my distenace because of the squishiness of the job we play but will throw myself in the danger zone ANY time it's for the good of the party

[Habiki]

SMN is far more easily lumped in with WHM, BLM, SCH and BRD than DRK. The only comparision we have with DRK is that there's groups of people that find us useless. We share nothing with DRK other than the Game we inhabit. They have the good native WS, good melee traits, good melee abilities and they even have a trait that gives them TP from casting. Now point to that list and show me how they're the same.

Please tell me your not trying to imply SMN has more reason to be up front than BLU. Again BLU gets good native WS, good melee traits(depending on what they set), good melee abilities. Which leaves them more comparable to DRK than SMN ever could be. Even WHM trounces SMN as a DD they also get good native WS and now with Afflatus Misery + Auspice they get Enlight and Subtle Blow plus an acc bonus when they miss with it active. Not to mention they can Dual wield thier main weapon type further increasing both thier DoT and WS frequency if they have and OAT weapon off hand or a K.Club. Now before you say if they're meleeing they're not performing their main job role, neither is SMN seeing as it's a DD/Support class if your meleeing your not rotating avatar's/buffs your just performing 1/2 a SMNs role.

Maybe try meleeing some instead of only being useful every 45 seconds, you could sub samurai and probably out dd your pets dmg with just meditate and sekkanoki along with your DOT. If your not caipable of switching pets or buffing while your autoattacking I feel bad for you.

Theres nothing really wrong with any of the jobs in ffxi, whats wrong is their roles are dictated by the playerbase not the devs. The elitist math geeks say its one way and everyone takes their word as gospel, not willing to try anything else for fear of being called a gimp for meleeing on rdm etc.

[Razushu]

Maybe try meleeing some instead of only being useful every 45 seconds, you could sub samurai and probably out dd your pets dmg with just meditate and sekkanoki along with your DOT. If your not caipable of switching pets or buffing while your autoattacking I feel bad for you.

Theres nothing really wrong with any of the jobs in ffxi, whats wrong is their roles are dictated by the playerbase not the devs. The elitist math geeks say its one way and everyone takes their word as gospel, not willing to try anything else for fear of being called a gimp for meleeing on rdm etc.

First off I know about melee I know it's upsides and downsides.i also know the upsides and Downsides of SMN buffing. If you sub SAM the party gains some damage(but it's from a source that is in greater damage of eating dirt than any other job), but you lose the ability to back up the party also. If you're meleeing and cycling buffs you're losing DoT and if you've decided to gear yourself you've become dependant on your melee for MP. if you've decided to /WHM, SCH or RDM to support the party while meleeing and cycling buffs you're further lowering your DoT and your MP management to the point where it's not worth the risk of the SMN being up front for the minor damage increase from the odd swing between casting.

There is SMN is hurt badly by our BP delay alone, add in the fact we've been left with our BPs from 20 levels ago and some of our buff haven't scaled up from 75 cap. The roles aren't dictated by the player base in most cases, but by FF canon and the way the jobs are designed. It's possible to gear jobs in ways other than originally intended and by all means if you want to go for it. But if you think backline SMN is useless except once every 45 seconds you are doing it wrong.

Also please be careful of how and where you advocate melee SMN the "do not feed the Trolls" is being repainted and I'd rather not turn a real conversation into "I'm Leetz coz I haz a stick"

[Dallas]

Maybe try meleeing some

No use Habiki. This guy has unlocked Full Swing, apparently nothing else.

[Razushu]

No use Habiki. This guy has unlocked Full Swing, apparently nothing else.

See Habiki told ya Trolls

What we have here is a failure to communicate, Dallas here is incapable of reading anything other than "I've seen my folly SMN melee is the only way forward, teach me oh master!"

as evidenced by his missing my post


First off I know about melee I know it's upsides and downsides.i also know the upsides and Downsides of SMN buffing. If you sub SAM the party gains some damage(but it's from a source that is in greater damage of eating dirt than any other job), but you lose the ability to back up the party also. If you're meleeing and cycling buffs you're losing DoT and if you've decided to gear yourself you've become dependant on your melee for MP. if you've decided to /WHM, SCH or RDM to support the party while meleeing and cycling buffs you're further lowering your DoT and your MP management to the point where it's not worth the risk of the SMN being up front for the minor damage increase from the odd swing between casting.

There is SMN is hurt badly by our BP delay alone, add in the fact we've been left with our BPs from 20 levels ago and some of our buff haven't scaled up from 75 cap. The roles aren't dictated by the player base in most cases, but by FF canon and the way the jobs are designed. It's possible to gear jobs in ways other than originally intended and by all means if you want to go for it. But if you think backline SMN is useless except once every 45 seconds you are doing it wrong.

Also please be careful of how and where you advocate melee SMN the "do not feed the Trolls" is being repainted and I'd rather not turn a real conversation into "I'm Leetz coz I haz a stick"

That was right under yours and clearly displays my point

[Dallas]

You deal 700 damage with Full Swing and Fay Crozier and think it's a lot. You don't know as much about SMN melee as you say you do.

[Razushu]

You deal 700 damage with Full Swing and Fay Crozier and think it's a lot. You don't know as much about SMN melee as you say you do.

Ok this discussion was days ago but I'll repeat myself for the shortbus crowd

It's alot for no gear, poor weapon -100 staff skill 1 DD atma on a T+ mob. Seriously the point wasn't to gloat, but illustrate the point that any damage you brag about in Abyssea is moot because... and I'll try to be clear on this.... ANYTHING CAN DO HIGH DAMAGE IN ABYSSEA IF THE HAVE THE BUFFS AND GEAR FOR IT.

[Dallas]

700 wasn't high damage then and it isn't high damage now.

[Razushu]

700 wasn't high damage then and it isn't high damage now.

You really are incapable of basic communication, the chimps they teach sign language too would have got it by now

[Dallas]

Communication was always gonna work one way here. I know melee, you don't.

[Razushu]

Communication was always gonna work one way here. I know melee, you don't.

Nope, last time I checked I know about melee too, haven't done it on SMN. The communication works one way because you are mentally incapable/unwilling to see past your own ego. Time and again I've made relevant points and called you out only to have you resort to silly arguments and name calling. Fool that I am, I keep trying I suppose I believe even the most willfully stupid person can be brought into a reasonable and productive debate

[Dallas]

Well, you did choose to not melee, so yes, you are willful.

[Razushu]

Well, you did choose to not melee, so yes, you are willful.

Once again you predictibly illustrate my point beautifully.

I love the insinuation btw, that it's stupid to not melee on a job not designed for it and play as a support/DD class

[Dallas]

I do have years of practice at it, and you seem to be lacking in that experience. Why do you think it odd that I would speak from a position of authority on the subject?

[Razushu]

I do have years of practice at it, and you seem to be lacking in that experience. Why do you think it odd that I would speak from a position of authority on the subject?

I think it's odd that you find it so hard that you feel only years of experience can give you insight into it

[Dallas]

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion. Obvious escapes you. Next time you need to go to the grocery store, ask the nearest 5 y.o. to drive your car. No, he's never driven anywhere, but I bet he's seen the Disney movie.

[Razushu]

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion. Obvious escapes you. Next time you need to go to the grocery store, ask the nearest 5 y.o. to drive your car. No, he's never driven anywhere, but I bet he's seen the Disney movie.

First off I don't drive, no lessons, no tests nothing. Yet Because I'm capable of thought and high level reasoning I have been able to get behind the wheel competantly enough to drive before. if you lack the intelligence and imagination to only do something well after years of doing it I feel sorry for you I really do. But Implying this game requires more than a couple of hours research to know how to play a job well is pure idioacy. The obvious hescapes you and has been doing so with every post you miss the point on.


Nope, last time I checked I know about melee too, haven't done it on SMN.

See that Bolded.

I've melee'd quite well on DRG and SAM before and geared them and everything wasn't quite that hard, and this is all from just reading about them on the wiki

[Dallas]

OOH, so you're a DRG and/or SAM. Then we're done here and you can get back to the general forum with the MNKs and WARs. Laughing at you any further serves no purpose for people who want to play SMN well.

[Razushu]

OOH, so you're a DRG and/or SAM. Then we're done here and you can get back to the general forum with the MNKs and WARs. Laughing at you any further serves no purpose for people who want to play SMN well.

Did I say I was a DRG or a SAM? Not that that would bar me from Discussing SMN melee. I play SMN DAMN WELL and can garuantee I'm better than you at it. The SAM and the DRG are my brother's and I have on More than one occasion taken over for him in parties and events. It's not hard to know how to do something in this game all it takes is a little effort and will to learn before you pick up the job

[Covenant]

Weird how threads evolve. Maybe I'm not understanding the math but if C = the total damage a summoner AND pet can do per say a given time. A player weakening themselves to bolster a pet still has the same C whether the style of play is stand back or fight with pet. As long as it's consistent.
The moves was simply a way around boosting a avatar's ACC, strength and MaB, without having to necessarily farm gear. As a summoner I'm in the melee/avatar favor camp, except when I'm at risk for AOE's or strong hate. Then I would stand back and boost my pet with this move and still an I way "contribute" to damage without actually swinging my staff.