[dev1017]* Dancer Support/Healing Redux Idea (also /Dnc suggestions) [Archive]

Eri

06-11-2011, 11:41 PM

(*Dev Tag referes to Future Job Refinements)

We all like probably the Idea of spliting Waltz Timers, Which is a great Idea!

But this here will go on about something Diffrent!
Ppl were complaining about like Jig Durations/Samba Duration as a Sub... moveing on...

the potency of Ability's that support Job dancer uses are more or less as Potent
as the ones of a mainjob Dancer~ I suppose that is not working as initially intended.

While i wiedely support the whole Idea of giveing a Meele Job the possiblity, to heal
themselfes as /Dnc and Stuff, the main Jobs Dancer's only 'Edge' over a Support job Dancer
is solely to have more Potent Abilitys as the subjob ones and haveing acess to say
'Waltz Potency Agumenting Gear' 'Samba duration Gear' 'Step Acc. Gear'.

That does not serparte a Main from a Sub in Terms of Potency. Period.

I play as a light DD and supportive Class but can't support my Party as good as say a Bard,
Its not like i want the Same amount of Usefullness in support but lets compare
the Ability Haste 'Haste Samba' to the Spell Haste 'Victory March'.
And Ignoreing Bard can cast 2 Songs.

Compareing:
Haste Samba: 5% Haste (Full Merrited Main Job Dancer 10%)

Victory March 10% Haste (varis with equipment like 'Faerie Piccolo' and Skill)

Given these are fairly similar effect wise Lets Compare.

Level 75

A Dnc at capped Haste Samba gets 10% Haste,

A 75 Bard gets ~10% Haste Varying by Skill.

Level 90

A Dnc at capped Haste Samba gets 10% Haste,

A Bard gets ~12% Haste Varying by Skill and Gear.

Conclueding: Something is Weird here!

I would NOT purpose to set a Main Dancer on par with a Bard!
Im going at the "Varying by Skill and Gear" Part.

Lets me Quote the Job introduction on Dancer given by SE and highlight something:

Dancer
With their agressive steps, these thewy terpsichoreans would
weave forbidden magicks* upon themselfes and their enemies,
producing results rivaling the most powerful
sorcerous cants. The popularity of this profession reached its
peak during the Great War, when dancers were common dditions
to the allied army fighting on the front lines.
(For reference: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/altana/index.html)
*Really?

Let make an excursion to see what other Jobs have:

White Mage: Enhancing Skill, Enfeebling Skill, Devine Skill, Healing Skill
Black Mage: Elemental Skill, Enfeebling Skill, Dark Skill
Summoner: Summoneing Magic Skill
Blue Mage: Blue Magic Skill
Ninja: Ninjutsu Skill
Bard: Singing Skill, Wind Instrument skill, Stringed Instrument Skill
And so on.....

Introduceing Danceing Skill!

This is what you hoped i would say i Suppose!

Dancer's and /Dnc Abilitys should Vary with Skill!

Say we give main Dancer a A- rateing in 'Dancing Skill'

The Duration/Potency of Samba's and the Acc and Potency of Steps, Duration of Jigs as well as the Stun Acc Of Violent Flourish and the Enmity gained via Animated Flourish
would all be determined by Danceing Skill.

Therefore DNC 'Haste Samba' would be on par with 'Victory March' of a brd because Skill would
influence the Samba effect.
Of course you could Merrit Danceing Skill (under Magic) Allowing a Further increase of you current Abilitys.

As this would also affect /Dnc you could expect a Change in duration of Sambas and Jig respectively.

Any Feedback on this Idea would be really helpfull.

Edit: Spelling.

Edit 2: If you have a Better Idea,
regarding Samba Potency or preventing overwriting Sambas main to sub, or potency in case of steps, Post that too pls.

Zyla420

06-12-2011, 12:27 AM

if dnc get's dancing skill, i would hope it'd cap out at A+ not A-. other than that, i think it's a solid idea as every other subjob is only half as effective as its mainjob counterpart.

AyinDygra

06-12-2011, 01:17 AM

I am very happy without a Dance combat/magic skill. The Dancer job was designed from the beginning with its "support job" functionality in mind. (If I could link to the interview, I would) They essentially wanted it to replace /nin in many cases, and for solo, it most certainly has. Also, unlike /whm, I have never seen any melee be asked to use the /dnc support job to heal the party like mages are asked to use /whm. It just doesn't work out in most cases. (Samurai can make a good showing with their TP gaining abilities, but they're put to much better use in creating damage, not healing.) We're in no danger of being replaced by melee/dnc people in parties.

On a few of your points, I have to comment:
* Healing as Support Job "as good as" Main Job. I think having more potent Curing Waltzes is fine as a separation, although, with shared timers we end up using waltz3 the same as the highest waltz available as a support job. The one thought that comes to mind, besides our waltz potency gear, would be to keep the shared waltz timers on support job, but split timers on Main Job. That would be a major advantage for Dancer Mains, while keeping the support job limited.

* I like that we don't have to worry about gaining both Dance skill-ups AND Dagger skill-ups after we attain each level. Big benefit, in my opinion. I think our "Dance Skill" is actually "Dagger skill", because, in effect, melee combat gives us the TP we need to perform our dances.

Eri

06-12-2011, 01:41 AM

On a few of your points, I have to comment:
* Healing as Support Job "as good as" Main Job. I think having more potent Curing Waltzes is fine as a separation, although, with shared timers we end up using waltz3 the same as the highest waltz available as a support job. The one thought that comes to mind, besides our waltz potency gear, would be to keep the shared waltz timers on support job, but split timers on Main Job. That would be a major advantage for Dancer Mains, while keeping the support job limited.

* I like that we don't have to worry about gaining both Dance skill-ups AND Dagger skill-ups after we attain each level. Big benefit, in my opinion. I think our "Dance Skill" is actually "Dagger skill", because, in effect, melee combat gives us the TP we need to perform our dances.

Sadly that does not affect that our Sambas Potency as opposed to Jobs like Brd as stated in the OP therefore, i can't feel ok with the Situation.
Spliting timers does give enough supportablity, you can always sub mage for status cures and such. Point being however you put it a /dnc's sambas will overwirite a Main Dnc sambas considdering its the same 'Samba Tier' by Skill the stronges Samba would also overwrite the weakest. Also Jig Duration would be a Major Point to keep im mind for /dnc.
Also. As im consumeing the same tools as /nin than main Nin i should get the same debuff landing rates? well if that was the case i could nuke as /blm and be only limited on spells available and my Mp pool?
I mean ok you like it. Thats fine. It aint got any logic whatsoever.

Kimble

06-12-2011, 02:41 AM

The problem is, Sambas etc, are not magic skills like everything you listed. Really the best thing they could do, is make it so a samba of the same tier from a dancer main, would overide the samba of a /DNC

Eri

06-12-2011, 02:53 AM

The Idea is to create "Dancing Skill" and considder it Magic as started above.... (wonder if you read the OP?)
So Samba overwriting would not occur and the silly /dnc would be depending on Skill like everyone else on anoth SJ is.

Kimble

06-12-2011, 03:00 AM

If they changed it to a magic type skill, do you purpose everyone have their skill auto capped then to whatever their current level is? Also, DNC can already make Jigs and Sambas last longer through use of their AF and Relic.

Honestly if you want your Samba to be as strong as bard's march, all you have to do add a piece of gear that "Enhances Samba Potency" and problem solved without having to revamp a whole system.

Eeek

06-12-2011, 03:12 AM

The Duration/Potency of Samba's and the Acc and Potency of Steps, Duration of Jigs as well as the Stun Acc Of Violent Flourish and the Enmity gained via Animated Flourish
would all be determined by Danceing Skill.

There's no need to add 'Dancing Skill' when DNCs can already do all of these things via gear and merits.

Eri

06-12-2011, 03:14 AM

Bumbeen

06-12-2011, 03:31 AM

This is extremely difficult to read

Kimble

06-12-2011, 03:32 AM

So, if your skill starts at 0 even if you are a 90 dnc, how would you "learn" your waltz, sambas etc? Would you make it like other magic jobs? Where you have to be the current level in order to learn the spell to use it?

Would there be a negative for having low skill when using a waltz or samba?

DNC is a DD support job. Which is why it was made the way it was. Instead of looking at it like "If I want to be as good as bard" look at it more like "If I want to be as good as NIN, THF, etc" which are gear depended jobs.

AyinDygra

06-12-2011, 03:40 AM

Sadly, the only logic I see here is: "Make it worse for them!" I really have to wonder what prompted this supposed "need" to have new skill levels to impact Job Ability potency/durations (something that is handled on a JA by JA basis for other jobs) Such as:

Sneak Attack was nerfed as /thf (because people saw war/thf and drk/thf and sam/thf as more desirable with that ability.) They didn't add a new "Thievery combat skill" to determine sneak attack damage & other thief job ability potency/durations.

Berserk is full power on /war (should Warrior have "Rage skill") and Focus and Dodge are full power on /mnk (should they make them based on "Years of Martial Arts Training skill"?) Notice that in each job ability's case, they have gear that increases their Job Ability potency/durations, and/or partially removes drawbacks.

Those are just a couple examples on both sides on how SE deals with Job Abilities.

As I said in the first paragraph of my reply, I don't see Dancers in danger of being replaced by /dnc, nor are we in competition with them except in events like Campaign. The only way I could see SE "nerfing" the /dnc support job would be if people suddenly replaced us with /dnc.

If that's not your logic, and you mean to say this skill will give Dancers a boost in all of these abilities due to having skill in it now, how much of a boost do you think Dancers need over their current potencies and durations?

When someone is out soloing with /dnc, I hope they get as much use out of it as possible, up to the support job level they have access to (notice, they moved Curing Waltz III down to support job level, so they want it used in that way). They're already limited on Jigs with super short durations without our gear. Sambas don't last as long, so they cost more TP, and take more time to keep up.

There are many ways to improve Dancer Main, so I see no reason to hurt the support job's functionality.

If SE really wanted to make sure we don't compete with one another in making use of all of our abilities, they should look into the concept of choreography.

Job Trait: Choreography
Level 50
Increase Potency and/or Duration of Steps, Sambas and Flourishes when two or more Dancers use the same abilities against the same target. (steps already function in this way, building on existing steps, this Trait would extend this concept.)

For a simple example: Two dancers (one Dancer Main, the other /dnc) using the same type of samba (different tiers)... now, with the Choreography Job Trait, instead of one overwriting the other... they gain a boosted effect! Dancer Main is benefited, Dancer support job isn't hurt. (Two /dnc would not have this effect, so it remains a bonus for having a Dancer main in the party.)
Conflicting sambas would be an issue of communication. Either the party wants one or the other, not both. (since only 1 samba can be active)

Eeek

06-12-2011, 03:51 AM

Don't care if its lvl 0 to begin with ... that lvls by playing the Job if you dont wanna play it y lvl it to begin with?

I dont see that Gear being as useful and i personally would not have room for it also y would a Dancer would need Gear
and plase stop trolling and not reading the topic ' If you want...' thats a general fault in the job and not 'If i want', If i want to be a good Brd i do lvl my Skills. If i want to be a good dnc i get Gear for it? No Thanks really. Lol on a Serious Note Read the OP before replying. Nothing in you Post is benefical at all.

and no Dancer cant do it again read the Op lol at ppl speaking before reading.

Edit: And btw y would dnc need Gear to exceed a Subjob Dancer for anythin with other Jobs dont needing it?

I'm not trolling. I'm disagreeing with you. There's a world of difference.

Also, DNC's abilities already surpass those of a Melee/DNC. Additional gear enhances said JAs even further. You seem to be against the idea of DNC using gear that augments Job Abilities and Job Traits, but every job has accesss to such gear, especially on the AF1, AF2, and AF3 sets.

The job's main fault is not a lack of Dancing Skill. A properly-geared DNC's abilities are already more potent and reliable than Melee/DNC, and I see no reason to potentially weaken a nice subjob or waste development time implementing a 'Dancing Skill' system that's not even needed. Everything you want to do with 'Dancing Skill' can already be done through gear.

Yes, if you want to be a good DNC, you do need to get gear for it. This holds true for all jobs, not just DNC.

Finally, DNC's main problem is it's universal Waltz timer.

Daremo

06-12-2011, 03:52 AM

Dear. God. No.

As one who plays Dnc main and /dnc at every opportunity, I think this is a horrible idea. /dnc is already horribly gimped if you're used to playing Dnc main. The waltz calculation gives you a much lower cap, Haste Samba only gives you 50% of what you're used to, you're limited to Drain Samba II, you can only gain one Finishing Move per Step, and Reverse Flourish is capped at 60.

Gear is the only advantage? Please.

Haste Samba being weaker than Marches is NOT a fault in the job, that's how it was intended to be.

Alkalinehoe

06-12-2011, 04:17 AM

Zyeriis

06-12-2011, 04:25 AM

Byrth

06-12-2011, 05:03 AM

I'm not opposed to this idea, as I like to see Dancer getting buffed all the time and forever every update until we have Dual wield XIX, but I think SE intentionally avoided adding a "Dancing Skill" to the game. They've done all the things that Skill normally does through specific item effects.

Also, this should have been posted in the Dancer subforum.

Eri

06-12-2011, 06:27 AM

If you think gear isn't important for DNC then ur doing it wrong.

I have every sigle Piece of 'Enhances xxx effect' now running on like ~60/80 excluding Weapons.
Thats even beside the Point cause other Abilitys and Traits should like improve by Level given a Supportive role.
(add Weapons and Ninja Tools to that, like all of them since they are needed sometimes on procs and such almost full)

Dear. God. No.

As one who plays Dnc main and /dnc at every opportunity, I think this is a horrible idea. /dnc is already horribly gimped if you're used to playing Dnc main. The waltz calculation gives you a much lower cap, Haste Samba only gives you 50% of what you're used to, you're limited to Drain Samba II, you can only gain one Finishing Move per Step, and Reverse Flourish is capped at 60.

Gear is the only advantage? Please.

Haste Samba being weaker than Marches is NOT a fault in the job, that's how it was intended to be.

I personaly newer saw a horrible disadvantage in subbing Dnc other then the one Finishingmove and the Reverse flourish nerfed, Whalzes power raises propotional as own chr and targets vit change- applys on main and sub. Samba Duration Felt like unchanged.

Victory March at 75 gave the same amount of Haste as Haste Samba(Max Merrited) at 75.
That is not the case at 90. Thats just a Fact. Thats nowhere near intended, its just being overlooked.

So, if your skill starts at 0 even if you are a 90 dnc, how would you "learn" your waltz, sambas etc? Would you make it like other magic jobs? Where you have to be the current level in order to learn the spell to use it?

Would there be a negative for having low skill when using a waltz or samba?

DNC is a DD support job. Which is why it was made the way it was. Instead of looking at it like "If I want to be as good as bard" look at it more like "If I want to be as good as NIN, THF, etc" which are gear depended jobs.

Learn? lol is this like blu or something? You get them by leveling up.
Does a Summoner learn bloodpackts or Avatar controls? No they are given to them by Level! As for favors they the Potency varys by Skill.
As if you look at Summoning Skill there is no real negative. Instead of that power is increasing with more skill as it should.

Its never a question of I wanna be as good as.... Its more like say im a subjob Ninja and i cast Kurayami ... it totally get resisted because i have only subjob skill - i could fix that by adding magic acc gear.

Now i main nin and sub dnc and just like step i land it easyly and it has the same potency as a main dancers... only drawback is 1 Finishing move.

Subjob Dancer is way to forgiving. If i want to land a step i should have to wear as mutch acc gear as i could to just land it like seriously. Like if you would wear a lot m.acc to land a nin debuff.

I'm not opposed to this idea, as I like to see Dancer getting buffed all the time and forever every update until we have Dual wield XIX, but I think SE intentionally avoided adding a "Dancing Skill" to the game. They've done all the things that Skill normally does through specific item effects.

Also, this should have been posted in the Dancer subforum.

Dual Weild caps at 50% which i exceed already with Gear i dont think they will add more. Anyway as started above theres practically no way to miss a step or like to cure really low on /dnc.

And finally noone ever said silence would Affect Abilitys. But seriously i can contol an Avatar if silenced i just cant call a new one now.
I can see that SE trys to change stuff via Gear so where is that Samba Potency gear then?
Potency of like Sambas have to increase by Level not by a LOT but they should because any other kind of supportinve Party buffing Job increases by Skill.
If someone really wants to use the job as sub or main (skill a it!) there wouldnt be any drawback really seems like you are lazy atm.

Btw This is also Subjob related and as such i think its not right to post it in Dancer as it concerns ppl that /dnc too.

Daremo

06-12-2011, 07:20 AM

Curing Waltz III example:

* Formula (for DNC):

Amount Healed = floor(((Target's VIT+Caster's CHR)*0.750) + 270,1)

* Formula (for /DNC):

Amount Healed = floor(((Target's VIT+Caster's CHR)*0.375) + 270,1)

While the base amount healed is the same, the amount based on target vit and caster chr is cut in half.
When this change was made, as a frequent mnk/dnc I felt a heavy nerf.

Eri

06-12-2011, 08:08 AM

Thats rather intresting i never noticed that, tho i may not have noticed due to cure potency gear on main Dnc ... the cures had to be higher anyway... so they did change things but overlooked sambas or is there any subjob Samba nerf i might have not noticed? that 50% i truely not think thats right lol In any Case step acc is weird as it does not differ from sub to main.

Deadvinta

06-12-2011, 08:56 AM

Am I to assume that silence would become a dancer's greatest enemy now because you want it changed to magic skill based instead of it's actual concept which is a tp/melee based healer/support class? You just gimped healing waltz btw, how am i going to remove silence to cast utsusemi if silence affects my waltzes? I may as well level whm. Or do you assume that it would be the exception to the rule and silence wouldn't affect it's magic? I'll take an order of pure absurdity, thanks.

Oh god. I already hate having paralyze and/or Amnesia. I would hate to have to fear Silence, too.

Eri

06-12-2011, 09:46 AM

Am I to assume that silence would become a dancer's greatest enemy now because you want it changed to magic skill based instead of it's actual concept which is a tp/melee based healer/support class? You just gimped healing waltz btw, how am i going to remove silence to cast utsusemi if silence affects my waltzes? I may as well level whm. Or do you assume that it would be the exception to the rule and silence wouldn't affect it's magic? I'll take an order of pure absurdity, thanks.

You are to assume ppl Ignore your Post, as i would have. With being Spells cast without consuming MP (Nin / Brd)
Dances would neither and my idea of changeing it to Magic? strange SE stated it was a of Magic way back as stated in the OP already.

Zyeriis

06-12-2011, 10:19 AM

You are to assume ppl Ignore your Post, as i would have. With being Spells cast without consuming MP (Nin / Brd)
Dances would neither and my idea of changeing it to Magic? stange SE stated it was a of Magic way back as stated in the OP already.
I'm unsure what you just said but, nin and brd spells are affected by silence, I made no mention of mp. Do you not consider job abilities such as rampart, mijin gakure, spirit link, and the like to be of magical properties? None of these are based upon magic skill, every and only thing affected by magic skills are affected by silence (and mute for that matter). There are no exceptions to this. Making DNC's primary abilities rely on magic skill would gimp the job not help it. As for the advantages of dnc as a main? There are tons. The same reason you take a WHM over a RDM (Cure 5 and 6) when RDM only have Cure IV (which you can get from a sub job) applies here. DNC > /DNC, WHM > /WHM, RDM > /RDM (/RDM45 doesn't have Cure IV). Did I mention that Healing Magic skill has almost no affect on how much you cure for? It does have some effect (a few hp) but it's laughable really. The same logic applies to the formula used for waltzes, they are only slightly less powerful when used as a sub but, if dnc is used as your main, then you get higher tier versions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with DNC or /DNC.

Eri

06-12-2011, 10:41 AM

I'm unsure what you just said but, nin and brd spells are affected by silence, I made no mention of mp. Do you not consider job abilities such as rampart, mijin gakure, spirit link, and the like to be of magical properties? None of these are based upon magic skill, every and only thing affected by magic skills are affected by silence (and mute for that matter). There are no exceptions to this. Making DNC's primary abilities rely on magic skill would gimp the job not help it. As for the advantages of dnc as a main? There are tons. The same reason you take a WHM over a RDM (Cure 5 and 6) when RDM only have Cure IV (which you can get from a sub job) applies here. DNC > /DNC, WHM > /WHM, RDM > /RDM (/RDM45 doesn't have Cure IV). Did I mention that Healing Magic skill has almost no affect on how much you cure for? It does have some effect (a few hp) but it's laughable really. The same logic applies to the formula used for waltzes, they are only slightly less powerful when used as a sub but, if dnc is used as your main, then you get higher tier versions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with DNC or /DNC.

The Idea of dance being Magic isnt mine. Check on what SE wrote on introduceing the Job way back.
And that Sambas To not increase in Effect by any means is also a Fact as for /dnc Landing debuffs withe same potency as a Mainjob its fairly uncommon.
Or would you land a debuff as a /nin haveing no Ninjutsu skill? It makes perfectly no sense.

Slightly less Powerful? a BLM/DNC clould selfcure being slightly less useful on that self cureig.
A DNC/BLM could nuke and would not be only limited by the Spells they would get they would be horribly gimp.
so y would 1 Job have no Skill in their own Profession?
...Just saying.

I dont even get started on all jobs have a 300% TP Pool but only some have MP that Argument would be silly.
But atm this discussion moves along that Level.

Byrth

06-12-2011, 12:46 PM

Dual Wield doesn't cap at 50%. There, now your thread was worthwhile and you learned something.

Alkalinehoe

06-12-2011, 01:10 PM

Dual Wield doesn't cap at 50%. There, now your thread was worthwhile and you learned something.
and idk how he is hitting upwards of 50% DW without sacrificing major haste spots (Like Nusku's for Twilight).

Zetonegi

06-12-2011, 04:57 PM

Slightly less Powerful? a BLM/DNC clould selfcure being slightly less useful on that self cureig.
A DNC/BLM could nuke and would not be only limited by the Spells they would get they would be horribly gimp.

First off a BLM/DNC will straight up cure half as much as a DNC/anything(assuming same VIT and CHR totals).

Second, the only differences between a BLM and a DNC/BLM nuking with the same tier nukes(no gear) would be the BLM has a higher native int, high MAB from traits, and will get less resists/spell interruptions.

Third, did you think this through? Lets suppose for a moment DNC does become based on skill AND there is gear for it.
Now remember to macro it in on EVERYTHING oh but keep the trait specific ones on for this particular dance. Oh and welcome to partial resists and full resists. This actually hurts DNC main more than it hurts /DNC because /DNC is really only used for sambas and waltzes. Steps and finishing moves are a cute bonus but sambas and waltzes are why you use it as a sub. Waltzes are already gimped if you're /DNC in ADDITION to the bonuses DNC gets to them through gear and DNC main also gets gear for sambas(and the bonus finishing move for applying steps). And be glad you don't have some stupid skill to keep capped because(little known fact) skilling up stuff like Enhancing or Healing Magic is a bit of a pain. And don't think you'll get 1 skill for all your dances You can have a skill for steps, a skill for waltzes, a skill for sambas, and then a skill for flourishes. And before you say that's ridiculous, remember, mages have a skill for healing, a skill for enfeebling, a skill for enhancing, a skill for nuking, a skill for divine(Red Mage has this skill with no native spells because Dia became enfeebling magic),which is like elemental magic, enfeebling magic, and enhancing magic, a skill for dark, which is like elemental magic, enfeebling magic, and enhancing magic. In fact lets just make them be Healing, Enfeebling, and Enhancing magic because why add new skills when its doing the same thing as already existing ones?

Eri

06-12-2011, 09:15 PM

First off a BLM/DNC will straight up cure half as much as a DNC/anything(assuming same VIT and CHR totals).

Second, the only differences between a BLM and a DNC/BLM nuking with the same tier nukes(no gear) would be the BLM has a higher native int, high MAB from traits, and will get less resists/spell interruptions.

Third, did you think this through? Lets suppose for a moment DNC does become based on skill AND there is gear for it.
Now remember to macro it in on EVERYTHING oh but keep the trait specific ones on for this particular dance. Oh and welcome to partial resists and full resists. This actually hurts DNC main more than it hurts /DNC because /DNC is really only used for sambas and waltzes. Steps and finishing moves are a cute bonus but sambas and waltzes are why you use it as a sub. Waltzes are already gimped if you're /DNC in ADDITION to the bonuses DNC gets to them through gear and DNC main also gets gear for sambas(and the bonus finishing move for applying steps). And be glad you don't have some stupid skill to keep capped because(little known fact) skilling up stuff like Enhancing or Healing Magic is a bit of a pain. And don't think you'll get 1 skill for all your dances You can have a skill for steps, a skill for waltzes, a skill for sambas, and then a skill for flourishes. And before you say that's ridiculous, remember, mages have a skill for healing, a skill for enfeebling, a skill for enhancing, a skill for nuking, a skill for divine(Red Mage has this skill with no native spells because Dia became enfeebling magic),which is like elemental magic, enfeebling magic, and enhancing magic, a skill for dark, which is like elemental magic, enfeebling magic, and enhancing magic. In fact lets just make them be Healing, Enfeebling, and Enhancing magic because why add new skills when its doing the same thing as already existing ones?

Intresting considdering im near cap /on all my Jobs) on all my Skills excepions are parrying and guarding (which are a bit of a pain),

the Chr and Vit mods are be it sub do not make you cure for half as mutch even if the formula as /job has a changed modifier.

Now here we see real lazyness, Blue Mage was added, does it use Healing, Enfeebling and Elemental respectively?
Not it got a Blue Magic Skill, by you argumentation NIN wouldn't need a Ninjutsu skill either, just baseing everything on existing Skills, but that simply does not work out.... as mutch as the only stat based modifiers as main or sub dnc do not work out really. Why is that? Sambas are not affected by any stat bonus that i know of.

Lets say Sambas were Chr based, so the potency on Main and sub would respetively rise, equally to the extra bit of Chr you get each Level. Considdering diffrent Chr modiefiers by Main and Sub and haveing the Most Potent one overwrite any other Samba just in that Party.

Now you say there is Samba augmenting Gear. There's 2 Options i know of of which none aguments potency whatsoever. Dancer's Tiara/+1 (extends the duration of sambas by 30 seconds if worn while casting) and the Empirean Attire +2
occ. cauiseing Double Dmg on Meele Strikes. Which both do not change Sambas Potency at all.

In Addition there are a few Ability influenced by Magic Acc. and M.AB respectively. Violent Flourish's Stun effect proc being affected by m.acc.
And sadly enought Aeolian Edge which is strongly influenced by M.AB and M.ACC
I probaly forgot some here. So there are Abilitys that are considderd Magic but have no native skill to come up with.

Party of the Blue Macig Spells are also modified by M.AB since the job has a Magic Skill to them thats cool whatsoever. But y are Physical Blu Spells modified buy ACC and ATTACK then? Does that make any sense? you can say its Physical Spells you speak of. I would argue why a 'spell' would use meele affiliated Modifiers.
So Dances and stuff could indeed be of a magical Nature but affected by meele
affiliated things thats correct? So if thats the fact why isnt there anything like a 'Dancing Skill'? Makes no Sense.

To the resist Point ... Self buffs canot be resisted in any way. Offensive actions like steps or stun(vf) could be resisted to a degree. Thats like if you miss a step(acc mainly) or your violent fourish stun doesnt take effect(m.acc), solution throw acc or m.acc at it (i do that already to Stun)
So to a degree Dancer abilitys act like some Blu spells already.

If its not Magic we are looking at here what is it then?

So its already at the Point where Dancers Main or sub can benefit for Acc and M.acc
so your Argumentation is: No im lazy i don't wanna level a new Skill ? Cause its not easy?

Eeek

06-12-2011, 09:25 PM

So its already at the Point where Dancers Main or sub can benefit for Acc and M.acc
so your Argumentation is: No im lazy i don't wanna level a new Skill ? Cause its not easy?

No. Because it's pointless.

DNC does have issues, but a lack of 'Dancing Skill' is not one of them.

Eri

06-12-2011, 09:39 PM

Your Sambas do not increase in Potency by any means. Thast not an Issue then?
Dancer subjob is doind steps and stuff at the same potency thats no issue?

Spilting timers to a degree help the job but does not change the imbalance betwwen dnc sub and other subs

this isnt a Dancer only Problem.
Seriously i do like that splitting timers thing, but couldnt i just sub whm or sch for the status cures?
And cure with waltzes if needed?
As opposed to i canÄt do anything to enhance Samba or debuff potency?

The overall to high recast times outside of status cures are an Issue.
Potency of Sambas and Steps are as mutch.

Malamasala

06-12-2011, 10:39 PM

I support "Skill over cap" dancing skill implementation. I always want to spread the misery to more jobs so that SE gets more complaints about it. I can imagine it in practice. DNC having to macro in 8 pieces of +skill gear each time they do a JA, so that they get any kind of bonus.

AyinDygra

06-12-2011, 11:33 PM

Your Sambas do not increase in Potency by any means. Thast not an Issue then?
Dancer subjob is doind steps and stuff at the same potency thats no issue?
First off, we get higher tier sambas for that increase in potency. Secondly, I don't see steps/samba/flourish potency being the same on main and support job as an "issue". Did you ever think they are balanced to the strength that SE thinks is proper for their TP cost and finishing move requirements? Any less probably wouldn't be worth using.

Plus, you lose a lot of time using abilities (our bane is ability delay due to all of our abilities)... Dancer gets gear that makes those more worth using. While some steps can be useful while soloing (Box step, maybe), steps are mainly for Violent Flourish when fighting ancient magic casters and Reverse Flourish to gain TP; we get 2 finishing moves per step, while support job only gets 1... that's a huge nerf for any support /dnc, because they don't gain TP out of using reverse flourish, so steps are purely an expense for their effect, rather than a means to do more. If they made Violent Flourish any less accurate, I'd question if it's worth the time lost doing steps to build finishing moves to "rarely" (the rate you seem to expect from a support job's skill level) stun when we need it. (the only really useful reason for the flourishes on support job.)

Spilting timers to a degree help the job but does not change the imbalance betwwen dnc sub and other subs

this isnt a Dancer only Problem.
Seriously i do like that splitting timers thing, but couldnt i just sub whm or sch for the status cures?
And cure with waltzes if needed?
I would never use white mage or scholar support jobs on Dancer. We're not mages, we need to melee to use our core abilities. If we're casting status cures, we're using up whatever limited MP we get from /whm. When we run out of that mana, we can't just go rest and fulfill our main duties. So, either we get refreshed (doubtful) or use Aspir Samba (instead of the Haste Samba everyone expects from us usually?) That's just not practical. Plus, we need to use our melee support jobs as much as any other Damage Dealer out there hitting the enemy.

As opposed to i can't do anything to enhance Samba or debuff potency?

The overall to high recast times outside of status cures are an Issue.
Potency of Sambas and Steps are as mutch.
I wouldn't mind a way to increase the potency of our steps, but keep in mind that as a support job, steps are already nerfed as I said above, only giving 1 Finishing Move. Sambas can simply be new tiers that aren't available to /dnc.

An overall thought about Dancer's concept:
Job abilities are not spells. There's a reason SE designed them as Job Abilities (it would have been just as easy to make them spells and make use of the existing magic types for each of their effects potency/durations).

Lots of things that are not magic are called "magic" in lore. I like to think that Dances are one of those things that simply create effects in those watching or allow greater attacks due to positioning as the enemy "dances" with us. Waltzes making people "feel better", Sambas cheer them up and encouraging them to attack faster (people automatically move along with music and dance, even babies respond before being taught!). Box step mesmerizes enemies, taking their attention away from their defenses, perhaps even increasing our attack power as we strike along with the proper step when we get closer to the enemy's weak areas. The Animated Flourish acts similar to a matador's cape provocation while Violent Flourish is an attack so vicious that it leaves the enemy stunned.

It all seems very physical to me.

Amanie

06-13-2011, 12:40 AM

well if you want a dancing skill, i would want more dancing "spells" to go with it.

but before the dancing skill is fully thought out and implemented. why not wait to 99 and t3 merits to see if we need to increase potency on anything

who knows:
samba potency merits - that stack with haste samba merits :D
step potency merits - perhaps
waltz recast or even potency
anything else that will make thf and nin green with envy

Eri

06-13-2011, 12:50 AM

Nynja

06-13-2011, 02:21 AM

Are you seriously comparing dnc to brd?

Heres another comparison, infinite survivability:
dnc heals via TP
brd couldnt solo a wet paper bag

Eeek

06-13-2011, 03:57 AM

However Merrit's only apply to a Main and Sambas should like gain potency by increaseing lvl and stats for a subjob too shouln't they?
As the Waltz Potency % cap is 30% (testing in Abys with Atma and Gear) and thats obtainable right now without any Atmas, Potency will most likely not happen. For the rest yes i'd be in for that though Samba/Step Potency/Acc should vary by lvl main or sub in my Opinion.

DNC's Sambas already gain 'potency' over Melee/DNC via increasing levels:

DNC can use Drain Samba III. /DNC is limited to Drain Samba II.
DNC can use Aspir Samba II. /DNC is limited to Aspir Samba I.
DNC's Haste Samba grants 10% JA Haste with 5/5 merits. /DNC Haste Samba is limited to 5% JA Haste.

DNC's Sambas, when used with Dancer's Tiara, last 30 seconds longer than Sambas from /DNCs.

DNC's AF3+2 Set Bonus allows DNC to occasionally deal double damage with an active Samba, and that's the case a majority of the time. A /DNC melee can't do that.

DNC's Waltzes also already gain 'potency' over Melee/DNC via increasing levels and through the Waltz formula:

Melee/DNC is limited to Curing Waltz III. DNC, though, has access to Curing Waltz V.
Melee/DNC is limited to Divine Waltz I. DNC, though, has access to Divine Waltz II.

DNC has access to more Waltz Potency gear than /DNC melees.

As for Steps, DNC has access to several pieces of "Increases Step Accuracy" gear. /DNC melees don't have access to that gear. Also, /DNC melees can't use Feather Step.

Melee/DNC are limited to one Finishing Move per Step. DNC get two Finishing Moves per Step, and if they use Presto, DNC can get three Finishing Moves per Step. By way of merits and Charis Bangles +1/+2, DNC sees much higher TP returns from Reverse Flourish than /DNC melees and DNC can build 5 Finishing Moves with only 2 Steps.

With Etoile Casaque, DNC's Violent Flourishes are inherently more accurate than a Melee/DNC's Violent Flourish.

With Dancer's Toe Shoes and Etoile Tights, a DNC's Spectral Jig is boosted from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. A /DNC melee is limited to a 30 second Spectral Jig and /DNC does not have access to Chocobo Jig.

Should I continue?

EDIT: Continuing!

Here's a list of DNC's Job Traits*, all of which are more potent than those granted by /DNC:

Dual Wield IV
Subtle Blow IV
Accuracy Bonus III
Evasion Bonus III
Skillchain Bonus IV
Critical Attack Bonus II
Resist Slow
Conserve TP
Tactical Parry
Closed Position (via merits)

That's insane! :D

*Note: I nabbed the Job Traits list off the Wiki. It may or may not be incorrect.

Eri

06-13-2011, 05:55 AM

DNC's Sambas already gain 'potency' over Melee/DNC via increasing levels:

DNC can use Drain Samba III. /DNC is limited to Drain Samba II.
DNC can use Aspir Samba II. /DNC is limited to Aspir Samba I.
DNC's Haste Samba grants 10% JA Haste with 5/5 merits. /DNC Haste Samba is limited to 5% JA Haste.

DNC's Sambas, when used with Dancer's Tiara, last 30 seconds longer than Sambas from /DNCs.

DNC's AF3+2 Set Bonus allows DNC to occasionally deal double damage with an active Samba, and that's the case a majority of the time. A /DNC melee can't do that.

DNC's Waltzes also already gain 'potency' over Melee/DNC via increasing levels and through the Waltz formula:

Melee/DNC is limited to Curing Waltz III. DNC, though, has access to Curing Waltz V.
Melee/DNC is limited to Divine Waltz I. DNC, though, has access to Divine Waltz II.

DNC has access to more Waltz Potency gear than /DNC melees.

As for Steps, DNC has access to several pieces of "Increases Step Accuracy" gear. /DNC melees don't have access to that gear. Also, /DNC melees can't use Feather Step.

Melee/DNC are limited to one Finishing Move per Step. DNC get two Finishing Moves per Step, and if they use Presto, DNC can get three Finishing Moves per Step. By way of merits and Charis Bangles +1/+2, DNC sees much higher TP returns from Reverse Flourish than /DNC melees and DNC can build 5 Finishing Moves with only 2 Steps.

With Etoile Casaque, DNC's Violent Flourishes are inherently more accurate than a Melee/DNC's Violent Flourish.

With Dancer's Toe Shoes and Etoile Tights, a DNC's Spectral Jig is boosted from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. A /DNC melee is limited to a 30 second Spectral Jig and /DNC does not have access to Chocobo Jig.

Should I continue?

EDIT: Continuing!

Here's a list of DNC's Job Traits*, all of which are more potent than those granted by /DNC:

Dual Wield IV
Subtle Blow IV
Accuracy Bonus III
Evasion Bonus III
Skillchain Bonus IV
Critical Attack Bonus II
Resist Slow
Conserve TP
Tactical Parry
Closed Position (via merits)

That's insane! :D

*Note: I nabbed the Job Traits list off the Wiki. It may or may not be incorrect.

I seriously do not see y your posting that: Tell you what. Other jobs get diffrent Spells ( I II III so on) of one kind.
but these are still affected. By skill and gear in their potency to a degree.
Anything above Waltz 3 is highly unpratcical due to recast times. (other topic thu)

Party problem:
Answer that: Has Haste Sambas Potency increased since 75? (outside of Merrits)

Summoners Avatars favor for exaple gain Potency via Gear and Skill.
Bards Songs (even marches) gain potency by skill and Gear. (theres 2 marches. Thats not the diffrence because victory march gained ~2% haste since 75 via skill and increased stats. its compareable since its both AoE party only buffs.

And to the person that want to mentioned solo: Don't care this is a MMO.

Noone EVER compared the Jobs... i Compared Haste samba to Victory March,
i think your trolling thu.

Kimble

06-13-2011, 06:12 AM

Someone telling you you're wrong, giving you reasons why you are wrong and that has a difference of opinion then you, is not a troll.

Eri

06-13-2011, 06:34 AM

No he didn't say i was wrong. hes telling me i compared the Jobs. Which i did not ever.
I compared 2 things with that had a similar effect by but do not have now.
Then compareing soloability in an MMO.

So its totally annoying to see~ if i compare 2 PT buff abilitys that are similar have by 75 standarts,
and are not any longer.

Thats what then? anyway. back to Topic pls.

Kimble

06-13-2011, 06:37 AM

Well if you choose to compare March to Haste Samba, I choose to rather compare Haste Samba to Haste spell.

Eeek

06-13-2011, 07:20 AM

I seriously do not see y your posting that ...

Oh.

My.

God.

Here's why I posted what I did:

However Merrit's only apply to a Main and Sambas should like gain potency by increaseing lvl and stats for a subjob too shouln't they?
As the Waltz Potency % cap is 30% (testing in Abys with Atma and Gear) and thats obtainable right now without any Atmas, Potency will most likely not happen. For the rest yes i'd be in for that though Samba/Step Potency/Acc should vary by lvl main or sub in my Opinion.

I addressed both of the bolded points quite clearly in my long post. Did you actually read it?

A DNC main already has access to more potent Sambas than a melee/DNC via a combination of level (90DNC versus /45DNC), equipment, and merits.

A DNC main already has more potent Steps as DNC receives more Finishing Moves than melee/DNC. Also, a DNC can use Presto for an additional Finishing Move and as a way to increase a Step's debuff potency in less time than a melee/DNC. A DNC main's Reverse Flourish is unquestionably and significantly better than a melee/DNC's Reverse Flourish.

A DNC main's Waltzes are inherently more potent than a melee/DNC's Waltzes due to differences in the formula. A DNC main also has access to more Waltz Potency gear. The AF1 Body, Dancer's Casaque, grants +10% Waltz Potency in a single incredibly-easy-to-acquire piece of gear.

A DNC main has a much more accurate Violent Flourish in part because the AF2 Body, Etoile Casaque, greatly enhances it.

And for the last time, I'm not trolling you. I'm disagreeing with you, and it's so easy to disagree with you as you don't seem to have any earthly idea what you're talking about.

Eri

06-13-2011, 07:24 AM

Eeek

06-13-2011, 07:34 AM

You brought up DNC main versus /DNC. I highlighted their differences and exactly why there's no need to add 'Dancing Skill' to accentuate the differences between DNC and /DNC.

I don't know why you're now talking about Hastega, Haste, and March when that was never the point I addressed. Also, here's a tip: Haste Samba is not magic Haste. It's JA Haste.

Zetonegi

06-13-2011, 07:49 AM

You could do that, as tho it is neither the same amout of Haste nor its a Aoe Party Buff.
Unless you take Garuda's Hastega i Suppose which is 15% Haste but its duration varys by Skill up to 5 min
(rdm and whm 3 min) So your yet again looking at someting that is affected by still to a degree. Given its not Potency
because it would be Highy imbalanced to increase Garuds Haste over say a RDM's Haste.

Its right in the sense to compare them however due to the fact they did not change potency since 75.
However y would i bring a Dancer over a Rdm or Whm or Brd it i wasnt capped on Spell Haste.
so assuming i wasnt capped on Spell or JA haste and had only 1 party spot open i would naturally invite someone to Haste. It if have someone to haste my Meeles and im still not capped on Spell Haste i would get a Brd over a Dnc since
it adds more Haste im asuming the Brd adds a 2 songs Attack+Haste. As you see in this example you cant compare
Haste Spell to Sambas due to the 5% diffrence in Potency. How can i compare v.march to Sambas then? because they were similar potent at 75 and are both party affecting only.
1) March is almost always at least 20% because you cast both outside of very rare situations unless you are a terrible BRD.
2) March is 12% haste unless you're a gimpbard even at 75
3) Why should DNC be able to buff on par with a job that's SOLE PURPOSE is buffing.
4) You aren't happy with 10% JOB ABILITY haste(this means it bypasses the caps from gear and Magic)
5) What in the heck does this have to do with /DNC versus main DNC? Main DNC gets 5% more haste on Haste Samba should they choose to merit that. Main DNC has a better formula on Waltzes. Main DNC has MORE Waltzes and Sambas. Main DNC has GEAR to boost those Waltzes, Sambas, and Steps. Main DNC gets 2 finishing moves when they apply a step. Main DNC benefits more from flourishes. Everything I just said was mentioned by other people in the thread and you have ignored it.

Eri

06-13-2011, 07:51 AM

Oh.

My.

God.

Here's why I posted what I did:

I addressed both of the bolded points quite clearly in my long post. Did you actually read it?

Yes sadly . No Adressed about nothing.

A DNC main already has access to more potent Sambas than a melee/DNC via a combination of level (90DNC versus /45DNC), equipment, and merits.

Main did not change Sambas 75 > 90

A DNC main already has more potent Steps as DNC receives more Finishing Moves than melee/DNC. Also, a DNC can use Presto for an additional Finishing Move and as a way to increase a Step's debuff potency in less time than a melee/DNC. A DNC main's Reverse Flourish is unquestionably and significantly better than a melee/DNC's Reverse Flourish.

if a main Dnc use a say Box Step 1 time that applys a 5% dmg down on the mob.
if a Sub uses one Box Step if apply a 5% dmg down on the mob.

so there is no diffrence in Potency at all.

the finishing move part is unarguble but is no potency.

A DNC main's Waltzes are inherently more potent than a melee/DNC's Waltzes due to differences in the formula. A DNC main also has access to more Waltz Potency gear. The AF1 Body, Dancer's Casaque, grants +10% Waltz Potency in a single incredibly-easy-to-acquire piece of gear.

Look at Whm now they get easy to Obtain Potency gear, a stat mod and skill in healing that Modifieds the Amount cured.
Say i choose to Cure as a Smn i get acess to the said Skills but not to the Gear

and as oposed to spell cures the waltz cures potency caps at 30%, and subjob dnc gets only the mods as in Chr and Vit.

A DNC main has a much more accurate Violent Flourish in part because the AF2 Body, Etoile Casaque, greatly enhances it.

Add enought m. Acc and you can Aquire about the same stun rate on any Job.

And for the last time, I'm not trolling you. I'm disagreeing with you, and it's so easy to disagree with you as you don't seem to have any earthly idea what you're talking about.

You may not Trolling im ok with you disargeeing. But do you seriously have any idea about what modifies what? I'm pretty unsure about that.

Eeek

06-13-2011, 07:54 AM

Okay, it looks like we've firmly established that you have no clue what you're talking about. Or reading, for that matter.

So, what now?

Eri

06-13-2011, 08:40 AM

Your are not even seeing that you fail on the argumnt and cant do anything but throw out insults right?

Other than THAT you could accept my opioin on stuff like i accept yours. and you show lack of skill on the argument as well as you proven that. Oh and instead of telling me i dont know anything about this Job you should Test it.

Im open to useful suggestions not to: no we Don't need it. I want my shard Timers. *whine* oh here all the gear (that does nothing about Stuff i expect skill to do.) oh i know everything.

Like seriously noone needs posts that are not of a benefical nature to the Thread. I answer them still since ppl might get it more easy what im going on about. And i find i rather rediculus to have you telling me i have no clue. If i talk about something i have tested it. Unlike you.

Zatias

06-13-2011, 10:31 AM

This is pretty difficult to read and I hate big walls'o'text, but I read it anyway.

No to dancing skill, it's pretty pointless. The main problem and mostly complained about is the shared waltz recasts. I hate having to choose between healing myself once for 600 or erasing one of my debuffs, which has an annoying 15 second recast. Would really appreciate multiple waltz categories, a bit like flourishes. Maybe even just have Erase as its own category... this alone would solve many headaches.

Otherwise, sorry but no. Haste Samba isn't even really magic haste like march is, it's job ability haste. They are a bit different. You can stack them, as magic haste and job ability haste are separate.

Dancer abilities are already gimped as SJ compared to the main, but still useful. Having skill would likely just gimp this even more to the point of drain samba draining 1's and 2's on higher level monsters, waltz 3 curing for under 300, and having dnc as a subjob would be near pointless.

You don't see provoke of warriors being influenced by some kinda "warrior" skill, it's all based on your +enmity, as Animated Flourish should be.

I could go on, but for the sake of not becoming a wall'o'text, I won't. Sorry.

AyinDygra

06-13-2011, 11:09 AM

Eri, your argument is essentially: Make Dancer abilities into magic so they are subject to accuracy/potency/duration changes due to a new magic skill: "Dancing" so Dancer's abilities increase in accuracy/potency/duration as we skill-up. You want things to "get better" as we level up, right?

The Repercussions of "Dancing Skill":
In the process of making Dancer "get better" with "Dancing Skill" as they level up, you would make the Dancer Job Abilities essentially useless as support job abilities, since no other job has this "Dancing skill" natively, which is the main thing that allows mage jobs to be useful as support jobs to other mages that share the same magic skills that their spells rely on.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. I see any one of these scenarios playing out:
1) Best case scenario: Dancing skill improves some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish (accuracy, potency and duration) beyond their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut in half.

To get higher potencies/durations for Dancer Main, you'd have to convince SE that their current strengths are not sufficient and are in need of increasing at the default level before merits and gear; otherwise, see point 2.

2) Most likely scenario: Dancing skill causes some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths (justifying the need for such a skill in the first place, if the difference is minimal anyway, what's the point?), requiring us to skill up and level up enough to have high enough skill caps to bring these same abilities up to their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut far below half of their current strengths since they already started lower to begin with.

I don't see a reason to punish the support job use of Dancer, nor the lower levels of Dancer, especially since the abilities are already balanced for what SE thinks are their proper potencies and durations AND the Dancer job was designed to be a new, desirable melee support job alternative, a function which this destroys.

3) Worst case scenario (this is SE we're talking about): Dancer skill causes all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths, requiring us to skill up and level up enough and wear "skill increasing" gear to bring these up to their current strengths. Using Dancer as a support job becomes a joke, healing for less HP than damage taken in the time they take to use a waltz. Steps have 50% accuracy due to skill, Sambas only last 30 seconds and heal in single digits, jigs wear off before the jig animation finishes, and flourish effects fail to trigger even more often, making steps far less accurate and only really useful for their own effects since the finishing moves they provide are for the now-even-more-unreliable flourishes.

My argument (and probably many others') is essentially: Why break something that is NOT broken? No, the support job use of Dancer is not broken; it is exactly as SE intended for the use of /dancer. No, our Job Abilities are not broken; they function like Hasso's "job ability" version of Haste (not spell or gear haste), Chakra's healing (follows a formula that is changed by vitality and gear), Focus' accuracy up (Quick step reduces targets evasion by fixed amounts), and Berserk's attack up (Box step to reduce their defense by fixed amounts), not like spells that change with "skill levels." Nothing "is weird here", as you proclaimed in the original post.

We wouldn't mind even more ways to improve Dancer ability strengths (beyond new tiers of our current abilities, split waltz timers, new merits and gear), but this idea of "Dancing skill" is NOT the way to implement it.

Do you have a Scenario 4 that I have overlooked?

Korpg

06-13-2011, 11:14 AM

Don't care if its lvl 0 to begin with ... that lvls by playing the Job if you dont wanna play it y lvl it to begin with?

I don't know about anyone else, but I leveled DNC to have a subjob for my WAR so I can solo skillup various weapons.

Korpg

06-13-2011, 12:01 PM

I seriously do not see y your posting that: Tell you what. Other jobs get diffrent Spells ( I II III so on) of one kind.
but these are still affected. By skill and gear in their potency to a degree.

But they don't need TP to do damage, or cure, or need to actually hit anything.

The main difference between jobs with skill and jobs that don't is MP. Although Ninjutsu doesn't require MP (tools instead) and Songs doesn't require MP (limited by type of instrument played) they are still effective by silence.

Also, look at where you can find spells and Dances.

Spells (those affected by silence) are found under the "Magic" Category on the menu, while Dances are under the "Job Abilities" Category on the menu, and only when you have the job as main or sub.

By making them where you would need skill, it wouldn't be under the "Magic" skills, since these are "Job Abilities" so they would have to be under combat skills....except they aren't combat skills at all.

So, where would you put them if you had your way and made them into "skills" setting?

Alkalinehoe

06-13-2011, 04:03 PM

If SE decides to up the haste given by haste samba they need to do the same for garudas hastga, haste, refueling, and animating wail to maintain balance.
Those are all magic haste..... Why should they get their values upped?

No haste spell is really affected by skill of said job except Brd but their a true support job in the since all they can do is support,
BRDs get Evisc and a decent dagger skill, they can pump out some nice numbers.

new spell animating wail which is 15% haste.
the spell is nearly a year old, hardly what I'd call new.

Alkalinehoe

06-13-2011, 07:11 PM

There is more to the game the then abyssea, brd is horrible for dmg without RR outside with eviseration and to the point that their magic haste then why did the op compare it to victory march its magic haste as well but it ups with skill lvl, and I referanced animating wail because its a new form of haste besides refueling, just like haste samba II would be, I supose you just wanted someone to argue with though.
BRD still isn't that bad, they get access to quite a few decent melee pieces and can cap gear haste. Plus they can always count on being able to March x2 themselves, or even madrigal themselves if ACC is an issue (although with the level cap there isn't much you'll have difficulty hitting outside Abyssea). Also, I wasn't asking why the OP was comparing March with Haste Samba, I was asking why you were comparing "Haste Samba II" with Hastega/Animating Wail/Haste. I get why the OP went with Victory March as an example of possible Haste Samba tiers, but why would implementing a new form of JA haste make SE increase the haste values of some magic haste sources? And Animating Wail still isn't new.

Eri

06-13-2011, 09:10 PM

First to Say i liked this post. Even thu it against the Idea of skill.
But its pretty mutch benefical.

Eri, your argument is essentially: Make Dancer abilities into magic so they are subject to accuracy/potency/duration changes due to a new magic skill: "Dancing" so Dancer's abilities increase in accuracy/potency/duration as we skill-up. You want things to "get better" as we level up, right?

This is about right, but its also small things that are weird.
Say we got a main Dancer and a supportjob Dancer in the same Party.
the most recent hit of the Main or Sub will determine which Samba effect the person hitting after main or sub will 'get'. That Main Dancers Sambe has always to take Priority.

The Repercussions of "Dancing Skill":
In the process of making Dancer "get better" with "Dancing Skill" as they level up, you would make the Dancer Job Abilities essentially useless as support job abilities, since no other job has this "Dancing skill" natively, which is the main thing that allows mage jobs to be useful as support jobs to other mages that share the same magic skills that their spells rely on.

You forget /SCH who actually can get Skill to a dedree (B?) via Dark Arts and Light Arts probably only designed to give a /sch the Skill which the person subbing it will not posess at a decent none gimped Lvl .

That's just the tip of the iceberg. I see any one of these scenarios playing out:
1) Best case scenario: Dancing skill improves some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish (accuracy, potency and duration) beyond their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut in half.

To get higher potencies/durations for Dancer Main, you'd have to convince SE that their current strengths are not sufficient and are in need of increasing at the default level before merits and gear; otherwise, see point 2.

2) Most likely scenario: Dancing skill causes some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths (justifying the need for such a skill in the first place, if the difference is minimal anyway, what's the point?), requiring us to skill up and level up enough to have high enough skill caps to bring these same abilities up to their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut far below half of their current strengths since they already started lower to begin with.

I don't see a reason to punish the support job use of Dancer, nor the lower levels of Dancer, especially since the abilities are already balanced for what SE thinks are their proper potencies and durations AND the Dancer job was designed to be a new, desirable melee support job alternative, a function which this destroys.

3) Worst case scenario (this is SE we're talking about): Dancer skill causes all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths, requiring us to skill up and level up enough and wear "skill increasing" gear to bring these up to their current strengths. Using Dancer as a support job becomes a joke, healing for less HP than damage taken in the time they take to use a waltz. Steps have 50% accuracy due to skill, Sambas only last 30 seconds and heal in single digits, jigs wear off before the jig animation finishes, and flourish effects fail to trigger even more often, making steps far less accurate and only really useful for their own effects since the finishing moves they provide are for the now-even-more-unreliable flourishes.

My argument (and probably many others') is essentially: Why break something that is NOT broken? No, the support job use of Dancer is not broken; it is exactly as SE intended for the use of /dancer. No, our Job Abilities are not broken; they function like Hasso's "job ability" version of Haste (not spell or gear haste), Chakra's healing (follows a formula that is changed by vitality and gear), Focus' accuracy up (Quick step reduces targets evasion by fixed amounts), and Berserk's attack up (Box step to reduce their defense by fixed amounts), not like spells that change with "skill levels." Nothing "is weird here", as you proclaimed in the original post.

We wouldn't mind even more ways to improve Dancer ability strengths (beyond new tiers of our current abilities, split waltz timers, new merits and gear), but this idea of "Dancing skill" is NOT the way to implement it.

Do you have a Scenario 4 that I have overlooked?

Yes i do have.

4. Given Skill Senario
Just give it a SCH like Ability to to give a SJ a Decent amount of Skill (Stance Type)
As Oposed to haveing half lvl skill as a subjob you would attain a decent amount of skill trough that. By that you would not have any Problems of which i could think right now.
There might be broblems i overlooked on this but as the to a useful lvl you could also restrict certain things which a subjob shouldn't do when a Main is Present anyway.

Korpg

06-13-2011, 10:57 PM

You still haven't answered my question:

If you make it into a skill, where do you place the skill?

Magic or Combat skill?

Eri

06-14-2011, 12:44 AM

You still haven't answered my question:

If you make it into a skill, where do you place the skill?

Magic or Combat skill?

Oh sorry for the late Reply.

I would take a bet that this is like: are Dances of Magical or Physical nature?

So Let me answer that acordingly.

Dances use TP instead of MP so its Physical?

Looking at how MP and TP are obtained respectively.

MP - Straight resting
TP - Hitting a Mob.

So judeing by that it seems clearly physical, but before the Dancer Job was introduced,
it was not even possible to do anything with your TP unless WS. It was an all Magical asset to Heal/Buff/Debuff.
So this has Changed.
TP and MP are two things that can essentially be used in a similar Way.
To Heal/Debuff/DD etc

Even Avtars Modify their nukes by TP instead of MP
- The Summoner loses MP to perform a Bloodpact - the Avatars TP Modifys the Dmg of a magical nuke to a degree.

Moveing on to look at Blue mage which has a Magical skill that also applys on 'Physical Spells'.

As in that a BLU Mage that uses MP to perform Physical Attacks.(God that sounds weird!)

Let have a look:
Physical Spells Acc is modfied to a degree by the weapon the BLU weilds,
so Wearing a Staff (no native skill) will cause the Physical 'Spell' to be far more inacurate then
while haveing a Sword equiped.

Best example that cones in mind would be 'Head Butt' (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Head_Butt)
Which is Modified by Physical and Magical Attributes, and also, to a degree, being modified by skill since it has Magical and Physical Attributes.

Now haveing cleared that a MP consume 'Spell' can be Modified by a meele Skill (Acc)
Can't a TP consuming 'Spell' not be Modified by a Magical Skill?

Are Dances Physical or Magical and in which Merrit Category does 'Dancing Skill' fall ?

As mutch as a Physical Blu spell falls under the Category 'Magic' a Dance as tough consumeing TP would fall under Magic aswell. Theres no Critical diffrence in effect beside the Fact that it consumes TP instead of MP.
How could a Magic Skill affect physical Spell (for Blu) but Dances cant be 'Spells' because of they consume TP instead of MP?

Also theres Violent flourish (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Violent_Flourish) already, which as both Physical and Magical aspects and can be modified by either lowering magic defense or adding "Magic Accuracy" accordingly.

In Short: Magic

Does that sound about right or did i make some crtical mistakes?

Byrth

06-14-2011, 01:44 AM

Where you put the skill doesn't matter, nor does your logic behind it.

The fact of the matter is, SE made a decision to not introduce any new skills with Wings of the Goddess. Suggesting something they already decided not to do is a waste of time. You've wasted your time. Cut your losses and stop talking about this.

Eri

06-14-2011, 02:16 AM

Quote on that pls?

Its a lot small things that can be changed serperatly of couse! And there would not be any need to add skill to it!
Still Skill would most likely fix everything instead of changeing everything seperately.
And i would like to see the Quote that sais: no new skills in Wotg which i probably have missed. All that despite the fact that Wotg has been around a while, and things can change.
Where is the loss in talking about this?

Byrth

06-14-2011, 02:22 AM

Zyeriis

06-14-2011, 02:34 AM

Dancer's real dancing skill: Dagger skill. /thread

Eeek

06-14-2011, 02:39 AM

Dancer's real dancing skill: Dagger skill. /thread

Haha, I'm pretty sure this just a flippant post, but I'll be damned if there's not an element of truth to it. Nicely done.

Eri

06-14-2011, 02:48 AM

Any time/effort they spend adding something unnecessary to the game is time/effort that they don't spend making new content. Adding a Skill for Dancing would take a lot of time/effort and would only minorly affect the game. Not worth doing.

What is the purpose of making something skill-based?
1) The potency is lower or the effect is enhanced when subbed.
2) The potency is increased or the effect is enhanced when you "skill it up" or stack gear that increases skill.

If you can't figure out how Dances already fulfill the purposes of 1 and 2, you have some problems. Because they obviously designed Dances to fulfill conditions 1 and 2 but didn't do so through a skill, they obviously made the conscious decision to avoid making a Dancing Skill.

1 No . where does Step Potency vary with sub or main? are a main debuff is more potent on the mob. No.
therefor thats an Issue. The only diffrence i the amount of finishing moves obtained which has nothing to do with potency.
You could be like but 'Dia' does not gain Potency by lvl. Where does dancer get tier 2 debuffs thu?

As a Sub i can only Dia 1 while i can dia 2 as Main.
How does that work on Dnc main and sub where both are as Potent?

2. Since a /dnc Samba can overwrite a Main's dances and that's the case even if you stack on gear that 'enhances xxx effect' i does not fulfil its purpose in not overwriteing a Subjobs Samba as though as it is maybe more potent for its purpose.

It would work without Skill, and still needs fixes... where skill would fix overall.

Kimble

06-14-2011, 02:59 AM

Eri

06-14-2011, 03:17 AM

You don't need a quote about no new skills when its a fact, no new skills were added with WOTG.

Dance has been out for like 3+ years now, if a change were to have been made, it would have been made long ago

And, you can get Dia II as a subjob.

I do need a Quote about SE staed that no new skill would be (or will be later on) introduced in that addon since i did not see anything along that by that time. Im well aware that it is that that nothing was introduced. It has been 3 years yes. and some things are now not working as intended anylonger. (Like Pld being unable to Tank)
And after the time some fixes have to be made. One Way or the other.

Not every problem is as obvious thu.

Kimble

06-14-2011, 03:23 AM

PLD had tanking issues before abyssea came out.

Everything you want can easily be fixed without having to add dancing skill. And as I already told you several times, most people /DNC when they are solo/low man and even then MOST people who /dnc wont be using steps anyways so the potency "problem" isnt really that big of an issue.

Byrth

06-14-2011, 03:29 AM

Eri

06-14-2011, 04:06 AM

Step Potency is hardly an issue, because Steps alone are pretty worthless. Spend at least 50 TP and ~10 seconds of JA delay to give the monster Defense -9%? Oh awesome. That's almost a whole Dia 2 that costs me a Weapon Skill between time spent swinging and TP spent on Steps >^,^<

If you want to play the Reverse Flourish card to justify using Steps, then you've found the difference between Dancer main and sub Dancer. Steps give twice as many finishing moves to Dancer Main jobs. Even then, the Step/Flourish system is so limited by JA delay that it's barely worth doing even with 100 TP Reverse Flourishes and 2 Steps per 100 TP.

Theres no such thing as a 'Reverse Flourish Card' don't see a lot of use for it even as Main. Unless you lose your tp or or you wanna SC or something. Other that Reverse is like for harder Solos. In Pt you get to much tp anyway.

Of course you would debuff every 15 sec anyway because it helps the PT (don't think of mentioning Abys)
and you would be at 5 fm anyway. Debuffing via Step and Flourishes. /dnc won't a lot ok... unless nin/dnc vokeing.

Still the Sub and Main overwriteing on Sambas. Hardly an Issue for Step Potency?
only because /dnc do not debuff? I think theres still a Problem i CAN see. That i would not want a sub Dnc in Pt. (Solo Ok :o)

*Off Topic* Btw a Good/really good (Gear and Playerskill) Pld had Perfectly no Problem before lvl Increases.

Byrth

06-14-2011, 04:21 AM

Reverse Flourish is our most useful Flourish. Its only competition is Violent, and that's only more useful in certain fights.

Why do you worry about debuffing monsters to improve your party's damage while complaining that SE needs to patch the game to prevent idiots in your party are overwriting your Sambas?

You have Rambus-quality writing skills, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't reply to all of the things you write. I think that's fine, because you obviously don't understand the things I write or we wouldn't still be having this discussion.

wish12oz

06-14-2011, 04:43 AM

I refuse to read this thread, I'm just here to say the OPs idea is terrible.
I'm sure rest the thread is simply lots of people explaining how its terrible, and the OP being mad.

Dreamin

06-14-2011, 04:55 AM

Please close and kill this thread. Last thing we need are MORE Skills that we CAN merits but has NO MORE slot to merit because there are a limit on the current SKILLS. So introduce another merit that most people who has more than a few jobs is just a failure unless SE is willing to give us more merit slots. [That in itself should be a separate request though].

I'm sorry all these wall of text lost me, but all DNC's skills are MELEE skills. Your Samba stop working if you disenaged or you can't land any hit. So your ACC is your skills. And if you dont already know the major difference between DNC and /DNC, then you're doing it wrong.

Eri

06-14-2011, 05:14 AM

Reverse Flourish is our most useful Flourish. Its only competition is Violent, and that's only more useful in certain fights.

Most useful if your TP gain Blows. Other then that its not most useful. Its : Only thing worth useing.

Why do you worry about debuffing monsters to improve your party's damage while complaining that SE needs to patch the game to prevent idiots in your party are overwriting your Sambas?

Wait let me highlight that: Why do you worry about debuffing monsters to improve your party's damage while complaining that SE needs to patch the game to prevent idiots in your party are overwriting your Sambas?
Because i cant do anything about its gets overwritten. But i can debuff to increase the Party overall performance?

You have Rambus-quality writing skills, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't reply to all of the things you write. I think that's fine, because you obviously don't understand the things I write or we wouldn't still be having this discussion.

So well, instead of throwing out insults you could tell me what your Issue is?

Korpg

06-14-2011, 05:15 AM

In Short: Magic

Now, guess what.

You have to deal with the following:

Silence (since every skill under the magic categories can be silenced)
Magic Aggro
Resists
Skillup on "casting."

Also, you have spell interruptions (again, everything under the magic category can be interrupted).

And you would have to put EVERYTHING away from Job Abilities and make their own "brand" of "magic" in this case.

Your example of Blue Magic is a horrible one. You know why? Blue Magic skill is required for 1 of two things: Learning Blue Magic and Magic Accuracy for either Physical Additional Effects (for example, Head Butt's Stun effect) or resist rates for Magical Attacks (for example, Magical Accuracy for 1000 needles).

How can you interrupt dance moves if they are instantaneous? You can run and use a dance move at the same time, how can that be the same as magic? Since when can you cast a spell and move at the same time?

Also, having a Dance Skill category would do what? Affect enhancement potency for the DNC? What about those who don't have DNC or /DNC in your party? How would the potency affect them, since they are the ones who don't get the buff? Would you be rocking on a full buffed potency while everyone else gets a supergimped version of the same buff? That is not how dances work.

Also, you would now add another variable to steps. Instead of just accuracy to the steps, you now have magic accuracy added on too. Violent Flourish's stun accuracy is solely dependent on the mob in question; you can stun anything that doesn't have a strong resist, as long as you don't whiff that flourish.

Now, lets get into the concept of getting skillups. How do you propose Dancers in getting skillups? By dancing? By steps? By Finishing moves? Are we looking at another 3 skill breakup as in the same way as Bard?

Also, you would have to introduce a lot more gear into the lineup for DNC skill....

My question to you really was: Is Dancer Skill really plausible?

Edit: Forgot to add this, but here is another thing.

If you make Dancer Skill into a magical category, you would have magical haste capped a lot earlier and lose ability haste cap that you could have otherwise hit. In other words, Dancer would now become pointless in capping haste (well, it already is, but still). You would have less of a reason to get DNC in a party to cap haste, since you can't have that nice 10% Haste Samba as a Ability haste and instead magical haste.

Sayelle

06-14-2011, 05:22 AM

Still the Sub and Main overwriteing on Sambas. Hardly an Issue for Step Potency?
only because /dnc do not debuff? I think theres still a Problem i CAN see. That i would not want a sub Dnc in Pt. (Solo Ok :o)

If you're in a party with people who are even remotely competent why would you have someone there /dnc when they could sub something infinitely more useful like /war or /sam. The only way it would happen is if you play with a bunch of gimps and retards and if that's the case then you have much bigger problems than /dnc samba overwriting the Main dnc.

Alkalinehoe

06-14-2011, 05:40 AM

And the reason I mentioned it is because dancer might very well get Haste Samba II which would be a new form of haste, so it would make no sense to up the potency of Haste Samba unless they were going to up the potency of all haste effects
Again, if they were going to add a higher tier of Haste Samba, why would other haste effects be increased...? You still haven't answered my question.

Korpg

06-14-2011, 05:42 AM

Thanks Alkalinehoe, I forgot to mention another thing to my above post

Kimble

06-14-2011, 05:46 AM

Again, if they were going to add a higher tier of Haste Samba, why would other haste effects be increased...? You still haven't answered my question.

Um... he is saying, we still have 9 more levels to go and they might add Haste Samba II.

He then says, there is no reason to increase the potency of Haste Samba as it is right now, unless they do it with all forms of haste. IE: The value on the spell Haste, Refueling, Hastega, etc do not change as you level up.

Zyeriis

06-14-2011, 07:17 AM

Wow you need to go back to english class and learn some more, I'm done with you your far to dense.

Wow, you need to take another english class, to understand the language better. I'm done with you, you're far too dense.*

Side note: Can anyone find the mistake in that sentence?

Alkalinehoe

06-14-2011, 07:18 AM

Um... he is saying, we still have 9 more levels to go and they might add Haste Samba II.

He then says, there is no reason to increase the potency of Haste Samba as it is right now, unless they do it with all forms of haste. IE: The value on the spell Haste, Refueling, Hastega, etc do not change as you level up.
Still doesn't answer my question. If they were to alter Haste Samba in any way, why would they increase other non-JA forms of haste? Doesn't make sense. But hey, since they increased Last Resort duration Hastega/Animating Wail should last 10 mins.

Wow you need to go back to english class and learn some more, I'm done with you your far to dense.
*you're

You're the one with the reading comprehension problem. Or is that you just dodging more questions about your poor arguments?

Kimble

06-14-2011, 07:27 AM

Perhaps because hes stating it in co-text to what the OP wants. They arent going to go out and alter Haste Samba to scale in any way since other jobs do not get the same with their haste spells (apart from bard)

Fact is, Haste Samba is fine as is, only way to make it stronger would be to add Samba Potency gear, Samba Potency Merits at 99, or add Haste Samba II.

Chairman

06-14-2011, 07:31 AM

I have never once had a problem with other party members overwriting my Samba with their own. Are there players of front-line jobs out there who would rather waste their MP and annoy a healer than stop using a /DNC samba?

The poster who said before that "dancing skill" exists and is called Dagger skill is completely correct. I don't see what this change would meaningfully contribute besides a tedious skill-up process for existing dancers.

Eri

06-14-2011, 07:34 AM

Now, guess what.

You have to deal with the following:

Silence (since every skill under the magic categories can be silenced)
Magic Aggro
Resists
Skillup on "casting."

Since Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP is it competely unimaginable that silence wont affect it?
I think not.

Also, you have spell interruptions (again, everything under the magic category can be interrupted).

And you would have to put EVERYTHING away from Job Abilities and make their own "brand" of "magic" in this case.

Again Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP, is it competely unimaginable that you would only need to add Resists to Steps (which are virtually acc based since there is no additional effect)?

Your example of Blue Magic is a horrible one. You know why? Blue Magic skill is required for 1 of two things: Learning Blue Magic and Magic Accuracy for either Physical Additional Effects (for example, Head Butt's Stun effect) or resist rates for Magical Attacks (for example, Magical Accuracy for 1000 needles).

It might be a bad example, its a pretty mutch reasonable explaination.

How can you interrupt dance moves if they are instantaneous? You can run and use a dance move at the same time, how can that be the same as magic? Since when can you cast a spell and move at the same time?

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

Also, having a Dance Skill category would do what? Affect enhancement potency for the DNC? What about those who don't have DNC or /DNC in your party? How would the potency affect them, since they are the ones who don't get the buff? Would you be rocking on a full buffed potency while everyone else gets a supergimped version of the same buff? That is not how dances work.

Its a Party buff therefore everyone get the version that was Cast. That was obvious to beginn with no?

Also, you would now add another variable to steps. Instead of just accuracy to the steps, you now have magic accuracy added on too. Violent Flourish's stun accuracy is solely dependent on the mob in question; you can stun anything that doesn't have a strong resist, as long as you don't whiff that flourish.

Simply Wrong. Why would applying Stutter Steps (Lowes a Target resistance)
have any effect on Violet Flourish if you were correct? As long as Steps do not inflice any Dmg and for that reason the debuff is the only effect applyed by it. Its Ok to have only one modifier.

Now, lets get into the concept of getting skillups. How do you propose Dancers in getting skillups? By dancing? By steps? By Finishing moves? Are we looking at another 3 skill breakup as in the same way as Bard?

Like Every Jobs by useing its natural Abiltys So by doing your Job.

Also, you would have to introduce a lot more gear into the lineup for DNC skill....

My question to you really was: Is Dancer Skill really plausible?

I have no answer for that. but to make stuff really
useful in a Pary situaltion you would need a ton new 'Augments xxx effect Gear'

Edit: Forgot to add this, but here is another thing.

If you make Dancer Skill into a magical category, you would have magical haste capped a lot earlier and lose ability haste cap that you could have otherwise hit. In other words, Dancer would now become pointless in capping haste (well, it already is, but still). You would have less of a reason to get DNC in a party to cap haste, since you can't have that nice 10% Haste Samba as a Ability haste and instead magical haste.

Essentially thats a very good Argument. I can only say yes that would be BAD but,
since you do not use MP but TP and the Job virtually stays the way it is haveing,
just a skill to modify you Abilitys to a degree. If a Job can cure with TP at all it can be magical and still not be affected by all that Stuff. And Still have JA haste

If you're in a party with people who are even remotely competent why would you have someone there /dnc when they could sub something infinitely more useful like /war or /sam. The only way it would happen is if you play with a bunch of gimps and retards and if that's the case then you have much bigger problems than /dnc samba overwriting the Main dnc.

And welcome to random Abyssea exp Groups. (Good reason to avoid them).

Also i would like to thank Korpg to think everything through as thu hes no conviced by the Idea^^

Anyway would like everyone be ok if i closed this Thread?
I think everyone has his/her position by now.
Or would anyone want to add something?

Kimble

06-14-2011, 07:40 AM

The fact is, if you make Dancing skill a magic skill, it WILL be affected by silence. Singing, Ninjitsu, Wind, String, Blue, Dark, Elemental, Enfeebling, Divine, Healing, Summoning can all be silenced.

Chairman

06-14-2011, 08:03 AM

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.

You can use a job ability while moving, even if it does root you momentarily. You can't use a spell while moving.

Korpg

06-14-2011, 08:08 AM

Since Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP is it competely unimaginable that silence wont affect it?
I think not.

If you are going to make it into a magic ability, it has to have all the weaknesses and strengths of being a magic ability. Including, but not limited to, silence.

Again Dnc is unique in its Abiliys to use TP, is it competely unimaginable that you would only need to add Resists to Steps (which are virtually acc based since there is no additional effect)?
Again, you can't have a slice of cake without making the whole cake first. Making anything that a DNC does into magic qualities means you have to include everything that separates it from physical qualities. Which is resists, spell casting, spell interruptions, and silence.

You can not move while the Ability is executed. Its been that Way and will stay that Way. Try Autorunning and executeing a Waltz you will stop until the animation has run trough.
Try moving at all while casting a spell, including near-instantaneous spells (dia, flash, and stun) and you will STILL get interrupted. Even BRD songs get interrupted, and they can have 20 mobs beating on them and not get interrupted at all.

Yes, you "stop" but you can START the ability WHILE moving. That reason alone is why this wouldn't be anywhere near magical qualities.

Its a Party buff therefore everyone get the version that was Cast. That was obvious to beginn with no?

Here, lets play this little game.

Find two WHM friend, and have them both cast a Bar spell on you, one of them naked, the other one with a lot of enhancing magic equipment on.

You will notice that the WHM with the enhancing magic + equipment will have the better of the two WHM Bar spells.

Also, notice that you also have the symbol of whatever Bar spell they put on there. Does the other melee have your samba symbol on when they are attacking with you and you have a samba on? No. So how does the system determine what strength of samba to put on? Sure, it could see that XX player used XX Samba, but then ask yourself this: What would happen if 2 players have the same Samba, but both at different strengths? It would be confused if you include DNC skill in the equation, because there are too many variables in determining the strength of anything. Only way it wouldn't is if Sambas become AoE type spells, like Bar spells, and that is not how DNC works, is it? Adding skills would completely change DNC.

Simply Wrong. Why would applying Stutter Steps (Lowes a Target resistance)
have any effect on Violet Flourish if you were correct? As long as Steps do not inflice any Dmg and for that reason the debuff is the only effect applyed by it. Its Ok to have only one modifier.
Violet Flourish does damage. Do you even play DNC? Heck, my DNC is at 49 and I know that.
Yes, Magic Accuracy does play a role in chance of stun effect, but most everything does not resist stun, so you can stun a lot of things. NMs build resistance to stun as the fight goes on, but thats for everything. Adding a new variable (DNC skill) would make Violent Flourish that much less effective. You are basically asking SE to gimp DNC.

Like Every Jobs by useing its natural Abiltys So by doing your Job.

Let me ask you this then: Have you ever tried to skill up Summoning Magic by only the summon method? (Not including BP:R/W) It was a pain before they included the ability to gain skillups by BPs, and what you are asking is for everyone to start out from being at capped skill to being a 0 skill, at up to 3 different skill sets. At level 90. Assuming that so-called DNC skill will have an A+ rating, that is up to over 1,100 skill levels to gain until level 90 cap. Not including level 99 in the equation yet. That would take months to do, including the fact that some skills, like Waltzes, will take the longest to do.

I have no answer for that. but to make stuff really
useful in a Pary situaltion you would need a ton new 'Augments xxx effect Gear'

That is still a lot of gear to change. Think SE would want to include this system based on changing the whole structure of augments alone?

Essentially thats a very good Argument. I can only say yes that would be BAD but,
since you do not use MP but TP and the Job virtually stays the way it is haveing,
just a skill to modify you Abilitys to a degree. If a Job can cure with TP at all it can be magical and still not be affected by all that Stuff. And Still have JA haste

So basically, you want this to be a magical skill but operate under job ability rules? Think that SE, who is a stickler for making specific rules, is going to want this? Or players, who have played this game for almost 10 years, want to accept this adaptation of the rules to include something that would make a lot of people lives very miserable?

In end, I have given you many reasons why this would be a bad idea.

I hope this answers your query and know that most everyone, if not everyone but you, will say no to this new system.

Eri

06-14-2011, 08:19 AM

Let call it cast time, you can't move while casting because you have to concentrate, while speaking a Formua right?

While dancing however its a Movement that Inflicts an effect.
That is in many cases of a Magical Nature thats a Fact.

Exapmples of that would be most of the Steps effects and also to a degree Sambas Effects.

Anyway im Offering to close the Thread if ppl are ok with it.

Chrisstreb

06-14-2011, 08:30 AM

Sadly the only thing a 90 Dancer has that a Subjob Dancer doesn't is Waltz IV & V (both of which suck timer-wise), the Merited JAs (Fan/Saber Dance) and any of the post 75 Dancer JAs and such (Presto/Climactic & Striking Flourish and Feather Step). Think one of THE biggest mistakes was giving /Dancer Waltz III, everyone nowadays is going /DNC for tanking. Also giving Waltzes & Violent Flourish pretty much the SAME potency as main DNC was another huge mistake. Take it from someone who leveled Dancer before the 75-cap was broken (lolDNC back then), a lot about the level cap increase basically gave ALL other jobs what made DNC shine by itself. Personally I'd like to see double Waltz recast time for /Dancer subjob, and an Accuracy nerf to Violent Flourish when Dancer is subbed. You dont see people going /Bard on jobs (aside from yellow processes when no Bard mains around). Personally I believe that Dancer needs to have its own identity again, instead of being 'everyones subjob of choice'.

Kimble

06-14-2011, 08:33 AM

/DNC is only usefull solo and very low man grouping.

And Dancer was not loldnc at 75, anyone who thought so was just a moron and didnt know what DNC could do.

Eri

06-14-2011, 08:42 AM

Well i might not made 1 thing clear enought in the OP i want some changes to certain things
they can or can not be Skill, the Skill idea was mine sure but it was an idea to adress certain Issues.

As for ppl that go like: No dont like the idea. Thats fine.
Im looking for a useful solution to seperate Main from support Job, so cool if you think my Skill idea through!
Though you are not Limited to Discuss my Idea, you are rather in the position to fine Solutions to serperate main and sub
I apologise for not makeing that more clear in the OP.

Korpg

06-14-2011, 08:52 AM

Let call it cast time, you can't move while casting because you have to concentrate, while speaking a Formua right?

It can't have a cast time if it is instantaneous. In case you don't know what that means, it means that you do it instantly, no casting, you hit the button and it comes on, like a light bulb.

While dancing however its a Movement that Inflicts an effect.
That is in many cases of a Magical Nature thats a Fact.

Magical in what way? I mean, you are converting your TP into an en-effect or cure or debuff. But for the en-effect to work, you have to hit the mob. In order for the debuff to work, you have to hit the mob. Curing doesn't require you to hit the mob, but to maintain cures, you have to gain TP, which means you have to hit the mob.

Spellcasting does not require you to have to hit anything. You can do it as long as you have the tools or MP to do so, or instruments to make it happen.

Exapmples of that would be most of the Steps effects and also to a degree Sambas Effects.

Your examples require you to hit the mob for it to take effect. Even though almost all does not do any damage (with the exception of Violent Flourish) you still have to hit the mob for the added effect to take place. When you wiff your round of hits, your samba effect on the mob wears off until you hit it again. If you don't land a step, it won't take effect. Both require accuracy for you to be effective. What spell do you know requires you to hit something to take effect?

Anyway im Offering to close the Thread if ppl are ok with it.

Go ahead and close it, you lost anyway, and closing this thread is a sign of defeat.

Knock yourself out if you want to close this. Just don't bring it up again.

But thanks for the laughs.

Dmer

06-14-2011, 08:59 AM

This thread is still going?

OK, here is the fact that seems to be escaping the OPs notice: DNC and SCH were designed to work effectively as subjobs from the start for melee and mage jobs respectively. They are WORKING AS INTENDED!

You even mentioned in one of your inane posts that light/dark arts give the main job a B rating in the respective magic skills. This was done ON PURPOSE to make SCH a better support job for mages who did not have the skills natively. SMNs and BRDs can sub SCH and not have gimped healing skill. They can also cast bar-spells and not have them be a total waste of MP and casting time due to natively crappy enhancing skill.

SO what is the difference between a main-job sch and a /sch? nothing more than the differences between a main-job DNC and a /dnc. SE just found 2 different ways to make them work that way: SCH with arts to boost the magic skills and DNC with JAs not based on skill at all; and not overly-gimped by formulas that are different for main or subbed DNC.

The thing that separates the main and subbed versions of these jobs is the tier of the spell/JA that is available to the player, as almost everyone who has replied to this post has told you. The higher tier splls/JAs of these jobs are not available when subbed, and the subbed spells/JAs are not overly-gimped. There is you balance.

Chrisstreb

06-14-2011, 08:59 AM

/DNC is only usefull solo and very low man grouping.

And Dancer was not loldnc at 75, anyone who thought so was just a moron and didnt know what DNC could do.

Sadly that was what I was told when I wanted to level it upon release in '07, and people didn't take DNC seriously enough. OMG it's only worthy for subjobing. Yes Abyssea has changed DNCs perspective a bit, but for the most part, it's still the same from way back in '07, everyone whoring /DNC.

Eri

06-14-2011, 09:33 AM

It can't have a cast time if it is instantaneous. In case you don't know what that means, it means that you do it instantly, no casting, you hit the button and it comes on, like a light bulb.

Magical in what way? I mean, you are converting your TP into an en-effect or cure or debuff. But for the en-effect to work, you have to hit the mob. In order for the debuff to work, you have to hit the mob. Curing doesn't require you to hit the mob, but to maintain cures, you have to gain TP, which means you have to hit the mob.

Spellcasting does not require you to have to hit anything. You can do it as long as you have the tools or MP to do so, or instruments to make it happen.

Your examples require you to hit the mob for it to take effect. Even though almost all does not do any damage (with the exception of Violent Flourish) you still have to hit the mob for the added effect to take place. When you wiff your round of hits, your samba effect on the mob wears off until you hit it again. If you don't land a step, it won't take effect. Both require accuracy for you to be effective. What spell do you know requires you to hit something to take effect?

Go ahead and close it, you lost anyway, and closing this thread is a sign of defeat.

Knock yourself out if you want to close this. Just don't bring it up again.

But thanks for the laughs.

Actually i offerd to close it because i didnt see my own mistake in not makeing clear that im not 100% if Skill is the right solution to the overwriteing and the not increasing Potency of Ablitys.
You made me laught too so it was fun to discuss my Idea no?

Anyway IF anyone has a better Idea to Address these Issues im open to other sugestions.
Closeing is not a Sign of defeat to me but it will stay so ppl that may have Ideas (better Ideas?) can add them aswell!

Kimble

06-14-2011, 10:12 AM

Sadly that was what I was told when I wanted to level it upon release in '07, and people didn't take DNC seriously enough. OMG it's only worthy for subjobing. Yes Abyssea has changed DNCs perspective a bit, but for the most part, it's still the same from way back in '07, everyone whoring /DNC.

Abyssea didnt change DNCs perspective, getting Merits (namely haste samba merits) did.

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

Zatias

06-14-2011, 02:39 PM

Actually i offerd to close it because i didnt see my own mistake in not makeing clear that im not 100% if Skill is the right solution to the overwriteing and the not increasing Potency of Ablitys.

I THINK I understood what you just said here, but not sure. If you made a mistake in your original post, you can always edit it so people can read it now and prevent "misunderstandings" like this. XD I mean, that's likely the first thing people read when they open the thread.

Chrisstreb

06-14-2011, 03:07 PM

was meaning moreso the lowman groups (that and alt WHMs, but hey, thats their $12.95 lol)

Eri

06-14-2011, 05:50 PM

Added an Edit to the OP for this Matter.

Korpg

06-14-2011, 10:09 PM

I still say you want a full change of Dancer job, one that would no longer be anywhere near what Dancer is today.

Why not ask for a new job instead of completely changing Dancer and still call it Dancer?

Eri

06-14-2011, 10:39 PM

scaevola

06-14-2011, 10:52 PM

Omg lol... How about you add something productive that you would like to see
which doesn't change the Job to your understanding?
(instead of makeing rather weird asumptions)

what if i think the job is pretty much right where it needs to be, at least outside abyssea?

Korpg

06-14-2011, 10:57 PM

Omg lol... How about you add something productive that you would like to see
which doesn't change the Job to your understanding?
(instead of makeing rather weird asumptions)

I mean really i think we discussed my Idea and it seems to not be the best one around
(more like the only one around). However there could be better better ideas to adress the outlined Problems! Oh dont be that destructive, try to think of another plan.

(to distract me from 'wanting to change everything' >:). If its only for that reason thats fine too)

Wait, because I stated my opinion on the matter, it is not productive?

What do you want me to say? That I agree with you 100% and you are absolutely right, SE should change the job into your idea of what it is?

Because you are not going to get that.

Eri

06-14-2011, 11:06 PM

Let me give an example, in this case to stop sambas from getting overwritten.

Idea!

You 'Tier' the Daze effects infliced on the mob by Sambas.

So: Aspir I > Drain I > Aspir II > Drain II > Haste Samba > Drain III >
Hasts Samba(Merrited)

Therefore a Mob would never get infliced by a Lower Tier Daze Effect.

So if you had a main Dancer casting a Merrited Haste Samba and a sub dancer in the Group that casts a Drain Samba I. Everyone would get the Merrited Haste Samba
instead of the person that hit last inflicting an alternate Daze effect.

that would be an Idea to prevent overwriteing. Dunno if its good but its an Idea.

Byrth

06-14-2011, 11:16 PM

I still don't understand why you're ever having trouble with people overwriting your Sambas. The people I play with aren't eager to burn their TP to give an inferior buff.

Amanie

06-14-2011, 11:45 PM

i got it!!! make all the sambas stack with each other

so 5 /dnc using haste samba = 25% JA haste
or 1dnc 3 /dnc use haste samba and another /dnc use drain samba
heck 1dnc 1brd/dnc 1haste mage/dnc and 3DD/dnc and get super haste and drain samba 4

think of the awesomeness!!!
melee mages would be hot no?

but seriously SE. i want more steps/sambas/jigs. waltzes need fixing. and t3 merits better rock!

StingRay104

06-15-2011, 12:02 AM

how would you skill up? /dance?

Eri

06-15-2011, 12:14 AM

I still don't understand why you're ever having trouble with people overwriting your Sambas. The people I play with aren't eager to burn their TP to give an inferior buff.

Well some ppl that do that like subbing Dnc in a Pt Situation for whatever Reason
(dont get that either.)
and feel like use Abilitys given to them by dnc Sub. Which is not benefical at all :o

i got it!!! make all the sambas stack with each other

so 5 /dnc using haste samba = 25% JA haste
or 1dnc 3 /dnc use haste samba and another /dnc use drain samba
heck 1dnc 1brd/dnc 1haste mage/dnc and 3DD/dnc and get super haste and drain samba 4

think of the awesomeness!!!
melee mages would be hot no?

but seriously SE. i want more steps/sambas/jigs. waltzes need fixing. and t3 merits better rock!

Stacking Sambas would indeed be cool thu i think it would be a bit overpowerd....
(and i'm not really fond of Meeleing mages(Aspir Samba?)) also!
Anyway i'm thinking if you could Stack Sambas would it be like:
Haste (Yellow) + Drain (Redish) = 10% Haste+ Drain (Purpleish)
that'd be pretty funny and colorful!

On another Note im thinking about a system to increse debuff effects increaseing by lvl rather than Skill... that idea is not a finished concept yet thu (to make it fair for main and sub)

AyinDygra

06-15-2011, 12:44 AM

The assumption here is that there needs to be a gradual change: making things worse than they are currently, at lower levels, and increasing the abilities beyond their current strengths at higher levels. The other point is that Dancers shouldn't conflict with each other, Main or Support. I only agree on some points. I'll go through a few that I see here.

First: Sambas
Their potency is based on weapon delay and Tiers. Dancer gets higher tiers to increase potency, and when used as a support job, they do not get the highest tiers. The ONLY issue that I can see here is overwriting of Sambas with inferior sambas, but that can be handled with communication.

* I already suggested the Job Trait: Choreography (level 50) earlier in this thread to stop Dancers from stepping on each others' toes, as far as applying lower tier sambas and overwriting each others' effects. This trait would make Dancers more powerful with two in a group, or even a main with "backup" "/dnc"ers.
- This effect should be limited to "normal Samba" and "Enhanced Samba" (only 2 stages total). Either one can be on the target to create the "normal" Samba, but a Dancer Main's Samba must be up to gain the "Enhanced Samba" when anyone else is using the same type of samba. (two different sambas would not be enhanced - just communicate and use the same one!)
- Steps are already cooperative.
- No impact on Waltzes or Jigs.
- The only Flourish impacted by this Job Trait would be Desperate Flourish, increasing the potency of gravity, even when the "spell" version of gravity is already on the target.

Jigs:
Jigs are already limited in duration without the gear we have. I personally like fixed durations. No changes here.

Waltzes:
Waltz formulas already take into account stats at different rates for Main and Support. Dancer Main gets higher tiers of Waltzes. The only change I'd make is splitting waltz timers. This change should be for both Main and Support. It's a silly limitation - TP and individual recast timers are the only limitations needed on Waltzes: you just can't spam waltzes for very long with 300 max that drains quickly.

Finally Steps:
Steps already have a cooperative element built into them as all Dancers using the same steps will simply increase the level of the step, or extend the duration at the highest level (no fixes needed for conflict there.)

Now, I mainly use steps to build finishing moves. Which step is chosen isn't really all that important against most targets. I'd like our choice of steps to be more important. The main issue with steps is how they build in power over time as more and more steps are applied, which makes them have only negligible effects in short fights. Since there is no distinction, currently, between a Dancer Main and a /dnc's steps, (the existing game mechanic is all steps of the same type building on the same status effect) the power of a Dancer Main's steps cannot differ from support /dnc steps.

* The most complicated method would likely be be accomplished by allowing Steps to have varying power levels that build a step effect's potency. This would be an overhaul of the current step code. It would allow steps to increase in potency in more incremental amounts, instead of a simple "5 level" status effect. Dancer Mains would get stronger per-step increases than support /dnc. This would make it harder to see how powerful the current step effect is, since it would be handled similarly to how Haste is handled on a fractional basis, and we can't see the step's power level directly like we can see Haste on gear and add it up. (they could increase step "numbers" to show more incremental steps, but the current method of gaining finishing moves relies on the 5 step method to make dancers switch up the steps they're using to continue getting the most finishing moves per step, since they currently only gain 1 finishing move after the level 5 status effect is achieved, rather than 2 per step under level 5 effect.)

* A simple solution, though less incremental, keeps the "numbered" system in place. The difference being all of Dancer Main's steps increase the step level by 2, while support /dnc raises it by 1 each time. (Presto would have to be adjusted to +1 more level on its activation) This would allow Dancer Mains to bring their steps to full power quicker than support jobs, which is a major bonus when you consider the Damage caused by the rest of the party for the durations that certain levels of each step are on the enemy. A further bonus to this change is that Dancer mains could keep more level 5 effects up at a time, or build steps back to level 5 faster when they let certain steps drop off.

That's all I'd do about existing abilities in the light of Conflicting with other Dancers and support Dancers, and improving accuracy/potency/duration of abilities as we reach higher levels.
(Unrelated to this post directly) I have many other ideas for additions to Dancer, though (link (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2059-Dancer-ideas?p=21272&viewfull=1#post21272) and link (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2059-Dancer-ideas?p=65412&viewfull=1#post65412))

Korpg

06-15-2011, 01:12 AM

Korpg

06-15-2011, 01:17 AM

* I already suggested the Job Trait: Choreography (level 50) earlier in this thread to stop Dancers from stepping on each others' toes, as far as applying lower tier sambas and overwriting each others' effects. This trait would make Dancers more powerful with two in a group, or even a main with "backup" "/dnc"ers.

That Choreography idea of yours is the best one on this thread, hands down.

Chrisstreb

06-15-2011, 01:39 AM

Zatias

06-15-2011, 02:16 AM

think my biggest 'beef' with /DNC still is the fact that they have access to most of the things that make main DNC great (specially for lowman situations). Still say giving /DNC Waltz III was probably the biggest mistake SE has made. I do like the JA Idea
Waltz III (or any waltz for that matter) as a SJ rather than main is severely underpowered as far as I have seen. It's viable enough for melee to heal themselves to not die, but still very nerfed.

Stacking Sambas might be a good idea, but that would be difficult to do, as the "Daze" effect on the mob is inflicted by the last melee attack under the samba effect. DNC attacks fast enough to simply keep overwriting with the more potent samba. Simply put, overwriting is no different than one mage casting Dia then another overwriting with Bio. Or, further down the line, a mage casting sleep on a mob then another person waking it up with DoT or melee. You just have to tell the other person to stop.

Doesn't listen? What's the shape of Italy?

Eri

06-15-2011, 04:35 AM

What's keeping you from kicking that person who puts on Drain Samba and get a real DD?

Ima nice Person at heart? =P No really im against kicking ppl even if someone
doesn't listen they learn it eventually~
I can't be like: 'I'm the DNC here all your Sambas are MINE!' can i?

Finally Steps:
Steps already have a cooperative element built into them as all Dancers using the same steps will simply increase the level of the step, or extend the duration at the highest level (no fixes needed for conflict there.)

Now, I mainly use steps to build finishing moves. Which step is chosen isn't really all that important against most targets. I'd like our choice of steps to be more important. The main issue with steps is how they build in power over time as more and more steps are applied, which makes them have only negligible effects in short fights. Since there is no distinction, currently, between a Dancer Main and a /dnc's steps, (the existing game mechanic is all steps of the same type building on the same status effect) the power of a Dancer Main's steps cannot differ from support /dnc steps.

* The most complicated method would likely be be accomplished by allowing Steps to have varying power levels that build a step effect's potency. This would be an overhaul of the current step code. It would allow steps to increase in potency in more incremental amounts, instead of a simple "5 level" status effect. Dancer Mains would get stronger per-step increases than support /dnc. This would make it harder to see how powerful the current step effect is, since it would be handled similarly to how Haste is handled on a fractional basis, and we can't see the step's power level directly like we can see Haste on gear and add it up. (they could increase step "numbers" to show more incremental steps, but the current method of gaining finishing moves relies on the 5 step method to make dancers switch up the steps they're using to continue getting the most finishing moves per step, since they currently only gain 1 finishing move after the level 5 status effect is achieved, rather than 2 per step under level 5 effect.)

* A simple solution, though less incremental, keeps the "numbered" system in place. The difference being all of Dancer Main's steps increase the step level by 2, while support /dnc raises it by 1 each time. (Presto would have to be adjusted to +1 more level on its activation) This would allow Dancer Mains to bring their steps to full power quicker than support jobs, which is a major bonus when you consider the Damage caused by the rest of the party for the durations that certain levels of each step are on the enemy. A further bonus to this change is that Dancer mains could keep more level 5 effects up at a time, or build steps back to level 5 faster when they let certain steps drop off.

Steps
I thought the same at start but increasing the Tiers gained by only one step maybe proves to be overpowering as in being able to keep 3 Steps at full Tier all time.
Also Presto does that... which leads me to the following.
Why not adjusting the recasttimer for Presto from 30 seconds to 20 second,
and the Duration from 30 to 45 seconds hereby allowing that you can hit a second step in case you missed one and also allowing a more frequent usage that results in higher potency of Steps.

Also lower the lvl of Presto to Something in the lvl 50s.
A Lower lvl Dancer needs to learn using it frequently so lvl 80 is just to high i shouldn't be subjobable thu. Lvl 50ish to clearly devide sub and Main
And Subjubs doen't need any adjustment in this example

Sambas

I had an intresting Idea!

I was thinking about Bard... then i realised something.
Why shouln't Dancer be able to get an Ability that is similar but weaker and a lower recast as Bards Troubadour?

"Memorable Dance" Lv 81

"Your next Samba will be increased by 1/3 of its Potency and Duration"

Recast: 6 Minutes

So lest take the all favorit Haste Samba an Combine it with this ability shall we?

You get: Haste Samba (Full Merrited)
Duration: 2:00 (AF head excluded) Effect: 13% (Rounded down) Ability Haste

How about this one?
(It a Samba Fix that seems fine maybe Korpg wants to adjust the rescast timer a bit)

I support the rest of AyinDygra's post.

Korpg

06-15-2011, 04:43 AM

Ima nice Person at heart? =P No really im against kicking ppl even if someone
doesn't listen they learn it eventually~
I can't be like: 'I'm the DNC here all your Sambas a MINE!' can i?

Then you can't blame anyone but yourself if your party sucks.

Also, why are you asking for my permission for anything? I don't care about DNC that much, I'm just pointing out some flaws that would make others hate your idea, before they voice it in a more aggressive tone.

Eri

06-15-2011, 04:52 AM

Because you seem to know enought about the game to see if something is overpowerd or just right or absolutly disturbing, in the prospect of Jobs interacting in one party.
So i asked you to adjust that recast timer accordingly :p its not about Dancer afterall its about a Job or subjob played in a Group of ppl.

Edit: and for the kicking Part thats a rethorical question to myself, I could not justfy kicking anyone for that.... everyone makes mistakes.

Korpg

06-15-2011, 07:27 AM

Because you seem to know enought about the game to see if something is overpowerd or just right or absolutly disturbing, in the prospect of Jobs interacting in one party.

Having recast timers for individual Waltzes would be good. I don't think they would be overpowered at all because WHM/RDM/SCHs aren't limited to one cure timer. But then again, they have the most ability for healing, while DNC only has a static healing ability (very few equipment would increase potency for Waltzes).

Creating a skill for any Dancer ability would be horrible, because you are limiting the actual effect of all dance moves, not just one set of moves. Also, creating a skillset would also bring in resist factors, meaning Steps will have 2 points of accuracy, Physical and Magical Accuracy. So would all Finishing Moves. But I already have stated that in this thread.

So i asked you to adjust that recast timer accordingly :p its not about Dancer afterall its about a Job or subjob played in a Group of ppl.
How would changing recast timers for all dancer abilities have any effect on any job that is not currently using Dancer as a main or sub job? I mean, sure, having separate timers for Waltzes would bring on the cures a lot faster if you don't have a dedicated healer, but if the DNC is the main healer, I would worry about being in that group as is.

Edit: and for the kicking Part thats a rethorical question to myself, I could not justfy kicking anyone for that.... everyone makes mistakes.

There is a difference between mistakes and errors. Anyone can make a mistake, it is when you refuse to fix that mistake is when it becomes an error.

Having 2 DNCs in the same party(2 mains, 2 subs, or one of each, doesn't matter), one who uses Haste Samba, the other Drain Samba, that is an error if you don't fix it. If the person who is using Drain Samba continues to do so, even though you already told them to stop, it is the leader's responsibility to fix that "mistake," and assuming you are the leader, if you don't kick them (or threaten to kick them, but you should have already done that prior to kicking them) then the mistake becomes your error, and you have nobody but yourself to blame for that. Unless, of course, you are the one who is doing the Drain Samba, then the error goes to your party members for not leaving.

Eri

06-15-2011, 07:40 AM

How would changing recast timers for all dancer abilities have any effect on any job that is not currently using Dancer as a main or sub job? I mean, sure, having separate timers for Waltzes would bring on the cures a lot faster if you don't have a dedicated healer, but if the DNC is the main healer, I would worry about being in that group as is.

That Recast Time comment was directly directed to the "Memorable Dance" thing, as mentioned in that brackets.

XD but you made a good post there whatsoever! Anyway im against kicking....
i make evil comments till ppl leave by themself >_>

Eeek

06-15-2011, 07:52 AM

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

This is still relevant several pages later. :)

Eri

06-15-2011, 10:36 PM

I'll throw one out for Dancer sub.

So, we do not want 2 Ppl in a Group useing Sambas at the same Time.

So how about adding an Ability in the lvl 30-40s that renders Sambas unuseable,
but gives you further Benefit from any Samba (Daze) Effect present?

So if this is effect, a Dancer sub useing it, would be unable to use their own Sambas,
while getting more out of the Sambas of another Party member?

I would guess that everyone could benefit from that.
And its also an alternated solution for the Overwriteing Main to Sub.

Korpg

06-16-2011, 01:55 AM

You know, I still don't see any reason to have anyone sub DNC if there is a DNC main in the party.

People generally sub DNC when they are going to solo something (THF/DNC, NIN/DNC, MNK/DNC).

In a party situation, if any MNK, THF, NIN, WAR, or any other DD out there subs DNC for any reason, that is an automatic kick from that party as far as I'm concerned.

Why you ask?

Can a person who /DNC heal the entire party? No.
Can a person who /DNC increase their DoT as say /WAR or /SAM? No.
Can a person effectively tank as /DNC? Hell no.

I would question DNCs mainhealing parties, but I have been in a small group where our only healer was a DNC, and they did just fine, so DNC mains can do so as far as I'm concerned. Would I choose them as first priority (or even second/third priority) as main healers? No.

Adding that ability of yours Eri would do nothing to the party except make it worse off.

Eri

06-16-2011, 05:24 AM

As the for ppl subbing dnc. Some ppl do that only for solo.
Sometimes you come accross ppl that are like: ' /dnc ! i dont trust the healer, rather be able to cure my self.' you can find such things in Partys.

I give you that, it doesn't give the Party anything but gimpy dmg output.
But then again i'm in the opinion that everyone can do what they figure too be the best solution.

Honestly I do see like a THF in party that subs /DNC over /NIN that makes me wanna cry but then again if im not in a leader position and i cant leave ppl needing my help (maybe) whever job i may go as . So in some occasions you can keep telling ppl like: 'Dude you could be doing Tons of more Dmg on another Sub' and you can excpect either thing happens.

1. They are listening and swiching that sub out. (soooo unlikely)

2. They say: '....And lose my exp chain here and Abys? Hell no!' (Abyssea only)

3. They go like: 'Don't tell me how to play my Job!'

4. You get ignored.

Well Dancer healing is somwhat limited to how much dmg you Pt would take (considdering long recasts)... by 75 if you had a Coli-Burn ~ if it was a good Group you could go like: DD/nin DD/nin DNC BRD BRD COR/WHM get the same or better exp then a normal Group.

But for the average group Dancer as a mainheal was a no-go in most cases, so you depend on ppl takeing not a lot dmg or have 1 person soak it up to pull that up.
(Dancer can only Spot Heal afterall)

As many ppl mentioned Dancer was designed to keep also the subjob utility in mind... they gave a bit of the subjob usability to /dnc in case of Dual weild.

Example of what 'could happen':
So Your in al lvl 50ish exp situation for whatever reason... maybe you wanna get Conquest points or something. Doesn't matter y.

So you ask ppl for Party and theres not a whole lot on seek.

You get a Pld, Some half asleep Drk, a Blu/Dnc, a War, a Dnc (who will only samba and Ws) and a Smn.
You took what you could cause you don't have a lot time to Seek!
You have Only like 2 Hours to Party gotta work next day!

The Blu is /Dnc for DW as thu /Nin would be a higher tier DW...

Your wont bother asking ppl to swich to go get exp while you are on limited time.

The party blows obviously! (You figured as mutch i guess)

So as the Dnc uses Sambas the Blu would get a kind of Bonus for no useing them.
Like +50 Attack or something (make it BIG lol should be less.), no idea what that Bonus would be but it would have to be noticeable.

A noticeable Bonus to justfy subjob Dancer in Party. Hell yes .
Because right now it for soloing and lowmanning and farming in cases but has no use as a subjob in a Party other then Gimping Dmg and disturbing Sambas.

I personally would not accept /dnc in party for any reason but you ocassionally just end up with something and you have to deal with it.

And i would like such a bonus (or a bonus along the lines of that) for not useing Two Sambas for 3 reasons.

1. Give them a good reason not to do it.

2. Helping an otherwise bad Party setup out a bit.

3. Getting rid of the Overwriting in another way.

And seriously dont ask me WHY ppl go to exp with a crappy SJ hell if i knew lol.
I seen i a few of times thu. It happens.

On a sidenote: Thf/dnc is a horrible Idea for any PT dont let me see that again. Ever.

hiko

06-16-2011, 06:35 AM

no to dnc skill because it will make it a totally useless sub.
with stupid sub skill you wont be able to land a single step on anything EP +, so you wont be able to use any flourish (no FM if cant land steps)

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.
if you have >2people meleing and not capped in delay reduction having one /dnc haste sambaing is a bigger increase in dmg than any other sub

Korpg

06-16-2011, 08:18 AM

no to dnc skill because it will make it a totally useless sub.
with stupid sub skill you wont be able to land a single step on anything EP +, so you wont be able to use any flourish (no FM if cant land steps)

if you have >2people meleing and not capped in delay reduction having one /dnc haste sambaing is a bigger increase in dmg than any other sub

If you have 2 people or more meleeing and are not capped in delay reduction, either get a real dancer or have somebody cast haste on you. That would be much better than having one person subbing dancer and lowering their damage output.

Korpg

06-16-2011, 08:34 AM

As the for ppl subbing dnc. Some ppl do that only for solo.
Sometimes you come accross ppl that are like: ' /dnc ! i dont trust the healer, rather be able to cure my self.' you can find such things in Partys.

If they don't trust the healer, then why are they in that party? If I didn't trust my WHMs so much, I would ask them to go as a different job and be WHM myself. Although, I don't trust my WHM that much either, but that is lack of experience than ability.

So in some occasions you can keep telling ppl like: 'Dude you could be doing Tons of more Dmg on another Sub' and you can excpect either thing happens.

1. They are listening and swiching that sub out. (soooo unlikely)

2. They say: '....And lose my exp chain here and Abys? Hell no!' (Abyssea only)

3. They go like: 'Don't tell me how to play my Job!'

4. You get ignored.

Keep those that do number 1, kick the person who does number 2, kick and blacklist the person who does number 3, kick the person who does number 4 and tell your linkshell about it, make sure you laugh at them and bonus points for shouting around the area you are in about how gimp they are, that would really get their attention then.

Well Dancer healing is somwhat limited to how much dmg you Pt would take (considdering long recasts)... by 75 if you had a Coli-Burn ~ if it was a good Group you could go like: DD/nin DD/nin DNC BRD BRD COR/WHM get the same or better exp then a normal Group.

But for the average group Dancer as a mainheal was a no-go in most cases, so you depend on ppl takeing not a lot dmg or have 1 person soak it up to pull that up.
(Dancer can only Spot Heal afterall)

Why do you think a WHM, RDM, or SCH would make better healers in party situations, or at least larger party situations?

DNCs can mainheal at most (in my opinion) 4 other people, and thats pushing it (in other words, depends on the skill of the Dancer). Anything greater than 4 people, get a WHM. There are lots of them out there, just find one.

As many ppl mentioned Dancer was designed to keep also the subjob utility in mind... they gave a bit of the subjob usability to /dnc in case of Dual weild.

I think they gave Dual Wield to DNCs so they don't always have to go /NIN to do so. But again, that is my opinion, I don't know why they gave Dual Wield to DNCs if the basis of their abilities was TP (and how much they can gain). I would have given DNCs Store TP instead of Dual Wield, but thats me.

Example of what 'could happen':
So Your in al lvl 50ish exp situation for whatever reason... maybe you wanna get Conquest points or something. Doesn't matter y.

So you ask ppl for Party and theres not a whole lot on seek.

You get a Pld, Some half asleep Drk, a Blu/Dnc, a War, a Dnc (who will only samba and Ws) and a Smn.
You took what you could cause you don't have a lot time to Seek!
You have Only like 2 Hours to Party gotta work next day!

The Blu is /Dnc for DW as thu /Nin would be a higher tier DW...

Your wont bother asking ppl to swich to go get exp while you are on limited time.

The party blows obviously! (You figured as mutch i guess)

So as the Dnc uses Sambas the Blu would get a kind of Bonus for no useing them.
Like +50 Attack or something (make it BIG lol should be less.), no idea what that Bonus would be but it would have to be noticeable.

A noticeable Bonus to justfy subjob Dancer in Party. Hell yes .
Because right now it for soloing and lowmanning and farming in cases but has no use as a subjob in a Party other then Gimping Dmg and disturbing Sambas.

If I saw that BLU subbing DNC and his reason was for Dual Wield, I would drop him and get another DD. Maybe one that wouldn't be so stupid. You can learn a lot about a player by what subjob and reasoning behind that subjob is. If they don't care enough to make the party work, why are they looking for a party? Or playing a Massive Multi-Player Online game???

I personally would not accept /dnc in party for any reason but you ocassionally just end up with something and you have to deal with it.

If that is all you have, then don't invite the noob and go with 5 people. Nothing says you have to have a party of six players to start a party.

And i would like such a bonus (or a bonus along the lines of that) for not useing Two Sambas for 3 reasons.

1. Give them a good reason not to do it.

2. Helping an otherwise bad Party setup out a bit.

3. Getting rid of the Overwriting in another way.

And seriously dont ask me WHY ppl go to exp with a crappy SJ hell if i knew lol.
I seen i a few of times thu. It happens.

If you are the leader, and you invite that player to the party with that crappy subjob and you didn't ask for them to change to a better subjob, then the reason why that party sucks is because you are a bad leader. Not that one player's fault, but your own. Grow some balls and either kick that player or find a replacement for him pronto. Still kick that player because they refuse to learn how this game is played.

And yes, I'm a little aggressive on this post. That is because you HAVE to realize that if you don't take action, noobs will stay as noobs and your parties would suck period. Absolutely NO REASON why any melee should /DNC in a party. NONE AT ALL. Either have a WHM who will cast haste on you while curing you, or find a real DNC. If the melee wants to go as /DNC, then they can solo their levels themselves.

Eri

06-16-2011, 10:23 AM

*a bit offtopic*

I may would've acted like in kicking ppl if this whole game was in a better state but as it is...

Just no. New ppl miss out on learning their Jobs on their way to 75 since either Smn Burns of Abyssea alike. I been around here for a long while. Had 9 Jobs by 75 cap.
I reduced that to 4 since i was in the opinion that i wouldnt be able to keep on supplying all my Jobs with the Gear needed.

If i get a random tell and some lower lvl Player asks me something i'm happy since it shows that some ppl still want to do things right.

And kicking ppl from Partys is totally against that, of course in some cases it unavoidable to keep everyone happy. Everyone can learn to play their Job in a way the party can benefit from it... eventually.

Some ppl may say getting everything for 1 Job is 'grinding' but i don't wanna see it that way. Everytime you are playing on a Job you get a bit better you gain experince in doing stuff. Therefore i liked lvling the old long way. I liked CoP on levelcap too!

So MAYBE its just me. But kicking someone who doesn't know how to Act in partyplay is just like ignorant i think. I'm Happy enought if someone wants to party at a low Level and not leech exp OR Level in Qufim only!

So i'm in the opinion that SE sould support ppl that actually Level 'the old Way' (which is probably hard nowadays) and add Abilitys that help good and bad partysetups alike, to keep ppl playing outside of 'Abys Onry'.

and im fond of things that take a while... ( NOT Trail of the Magians ~ i do it its boreing)

However SE goes a way where ppl are driven to Level fast and not learn what they are doing. A Lot of stuff i lost intrest in like Dymamis (did that 6 Years) and it was tactical and challengeing! Now its just mindless.... now let proc a Silly !!! and Stuff.
Once ppl come out of Abyssea some will be like: no its to hard can't play this.

Now im not saying 'Don't level anything you can't play' but i do say ppl should have a chance to learn to play a job from someone who did it a while and is good at it. Yes that goes to the older Players... swich to Mentor sometime!

So let me list what i would love to see in a short pregnant way:

1. Ppl that have a Chance to Level and learn their Jobs.
(dont think anyone learns from kicking!)
2. Abilitys that help 'bad setups' to play as they are. (All better than leeching!)
3. Older Players that give advice as needed.
4. Some fixes to Dancer that are not solo by party related.
5. No more Dancers that wear (Kila+2 'Evasion') that sooo does not help the pt.

Thats kind of a wishlist :p now back to the topic.

*On Topic*

I'll think of a better way better than Skill that still keeps the balance and allows dancer to play in a Party. As it is the Job has very few Party uses outside of a rather limited supporting factor, its ok for sub healer, don't say its a DD, it can but is limited on that too. But i would think BRD and SMN could both be as if not more benefical in their own ways. Outside of the merrited Haste Samba and the Skillchain options (talking about things noone does), dancers dont have a whole lot to contribute to a Party at least nothing that can't be coverd by another Job (aside from Ability Hase which only matters if Spell Haste would be capped). Im happy about every great Idea!