Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Abelia]

Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack the utility of their counterparts for other jobs. I have been bugged by this for a long time now. These weapons are supposed to be most sought after items across Vana'diel, but the staff versions of these weapons seem to for lack of a better word, suck, at least in my opinion. They are designed to be melee weapons, and thus lack any of the skills that would be useful for a Mage class (Summoner Mythic Staff aside). The Hvergelmir although it has a really neat weapon skill when is it really useful to a mage doing their job properly. The Claustrum again sort of had a neat weapon skill, that pales in comparison to the Hvergelmir, still lacks the basic stats a mage would use on it.

Mages in Vana'diel tend to use the elemental staves over these "Ultimate Weapons," because they lack the bonuses to magic damage and accuracy. These weapons are poorly designed in my opinion. They seem to be nothing more than a toy to play with outside of actual real content. I think its rather disturbing to find that ever time they make a new "Ultimate Weapon" for mages, they are just a stick for hitting an enemy with. Mages are changing their staff for each spell that is used, unless they only use spells of one element. It makes it hard to hold TP with the current way mages play their jobs. Maintaining TP isn't where the problems stop. Most mage jobs don't focus on haste as a priority, therefore TP gain is relatively slow. Even if it was viable for a mage to melee, I am pretty sure that there is a melee job better suited for that purpose. Am I the only one that thinks that these weapons lack the oomph their melee counterparts?

[Tagrineth]

The Empyrean Staff is actually pretty neat for BLM - you forego the ability to wield elemental staves or magian staves for offense, but every handful of nukes, you can fire off Myrkr to refill your MP.

It's still bad, though, since Spirit Taker accomplishes the exact same task. :\

[Malamasala]

Well, Mythic staff for SMN is exactly how all staffs for SMN should look like. Just a shame it is the hardest one to get.

Empyrean staff is so-so for SMN. It isn't the staff that is wrong this case, it is the WS that doesn't do damage while it is on the highest damage staff. A concept that is just wrong. Either you have high damage for dealing damage, or you have low damage and high TP rate to make a lot of WSes that do not rely on damage. Basically Myrkr should be redesigned. 20% MP back, 40% of your MP pool in damage would have been a nice design. And at 300% it would be 60% MP back, 120% your MP pool in damage. Still nothing amazing, but it would lower the gap between those Great Axe WSes and Staff WS.

Relic staff though. lol.

[Raksha]

Yes they all suck, but that's fine with me cause I don't want to have to waste all that time doing dynamis/salvage/abyssea to get one ;_;

[Gokku]

iirc its been tested but the level 90 BLM staff is currently the best nuke staff available. ill search for the proof.

[Raksha]

iirc its been tested but the level 90 BLM staff is currently the best nuke staff available. ill search for the proof.

relic or mythic?

EDIT: <3 Byrth

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/101068-Random-Question-Thread-XVII-Toy-Surprise-Inside!?p=4287092&viewfull=1#post4287092

[Gokku]

relic or mythic?

EDIT: <3 Byrth

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/101068-Random-Question-Thread-XVII-Toy-Surprise-Inside!?p=4287092&viewfull=1#post4287092

ah was thinking mythic , and ok its close but can still be beat.

[Mezzopiano]

...You even have to ask this? Of course they're terrible. The sole exception is the SMN mythic staff, which is actually pretty decent.

[Alhanelem]

Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility? ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY NO.

They are extremely useful, you just have build yourself and use a playstyle to suit them.

Nirvana is easily the best general-purpose staff in the game for summoner. The relic and mythic staves are the most powerful staves in the game as weapons. You just have to think outside the box to use them.


...You even have to ask this? Of course they're terrible. The sole exception is the SMN mythic staff, which is actually pretty decent. They are not terrible. They are awesome. The relic WS gives you a huge refresh effect when using it, and the empyrean WS isn't even an attack- it just restores a huge amount of MP, cures status effects, and gives you occasional double damage (hello 800+ melee crits on SMN- the proof is in the pudding) Just because these are high damage weapons instead of having +5000 magic attack bonus does not mean they are useless.

If you get it out of your heads that this job has to act this way and that job has to act that way, they are extremely powerful weapons that are very useful to the people who want them. They, of course, are not for everybody. But that's also part of why they're hard to get.

SE made these weapons for to cater to a specialized group that would be interested in them. They aren't meant to be desired by everyone, and that's fine. Just don't go around telling people their weapon is useless when it's not.

[Glamdring]

The problem with staff is that it's a relatively high delay/low damage weapon in general. For mages it's really there more for the added effect (whatever it is on that staff) than for any special combat utility. Hell, most blms I see swap staffs so much for the elemental bonuses that getting a WS off is a miracle.

What really showed off the combat deficiencies of staff to me was NPCs. I got my NPC right when it came out, and I powerred thru much of the content before a great deal was known. I have too much time invested in it now to start over. When I got it, I never envisioned using it in any form other than healer, so I went with a staff, mistakenly believing that it might get staff-type bonusses. Unfortunately, down the road I started leveling other jobs and wanted to use other options. Even with its A+ in staff, my NPC tank can't hold hate, not even if I TA DE onto it, simply becase staff is slow and doesn't do much when it DOES land.

Later, when I started leveling jobs that staff main I got to experience this myself. I still use staff on my bard, mostly for red/blue !! to take some of the load off the jobs that can use other weapons, but when I don't need to !! I switch to daggers, unless I need the staff to juice a support job (Apollo's for my /whm for example).

it would be nice to get a staff that gave elemental bonuses in 1 weapon, especially since the powers that be decreed bard can't use Kirin's... but outside that, even if I did level a staff type job, I think I would have more important things to do than make an augmented staff, unless I had LOTS of downtime.

[Alhanelem]

The problem with staff is that it's a relatively high delay/low damage weapon in general. Staves are relatively high damage, relatively low delay- the lowest delay of any 2-H weapons. The relic staves have high enough DMG: to compete with other 2h weapons, but have lower delay. Their DPS overall is right up there with any other 2-H weapon.

Staff's only true weakness as a weapon is not a whole lot in the way of weapon skills. But the specialized ones on the relic/empy weapons are great.

[Tagrineth]

Actually, no. Staff's biggest weakness as a weapon is the jobs that are stuck using it! No amount of willpower will grant SMN, BLM, WHM, or SCH a better skill ranking in it nor will it grant them job traits/abilities or even remotely decent gear relevant to DD.

For the most part the only gear those four jobs get access to for DD is "All Jobs" gear. WHM gets some spotty melee bonuses (e.g. Haste on the Blessed set), but it's extremely limited in scope (same example, Blessed only boosts Haste, not even token Accuracy or base stats).

Not only that but out of those four, the only job that gets access to the full array of WS is WHM. The other three don't get the elemental WS unless they sub WAR MNK PLD or WHM. None of which is an ideal subjob for the task.

Following that, of course, is the hilarious catch: WHM can't even wield Hvergelmir. So the three jobs that can wield it don't even have the "ability" to use all of its weaponskills, including Cataclysm which BLM and SCH would be able to use pretty well!

...and finally, the hilarious dealbreaker: Myrkr is worthless because Spirit Taker (that and to use Myrkr you'd have to fulltime the staff over an affinity staff).

If you want an Empy Staff, by all means go for it. It's not "bad" per se, it's great for SMN soloing for example... but don't kid yourself, it's definitely extremely lacking in utility and will absolutely never be more useful in a group setting than other staves.

[Byrth]

You want staves to be worthwhile? Make it so you don't lose TP when you swap them, and give all the important ones hidden 2TP/tick regain.

[Alhanelem]

Actually, no. Staff's biggest weakness as a weapon is the jobs that are stuck using it! No amount of willpower will grant SMN, BLM, WHM, or SCH a better skill ranking in it nor will it grant them job traits/abilities or even remotely decent gear relevant to DD.SMN has B skill which is plenty good enough, it's second only to PLD and tied with MNK. I have full strength merits, full staff merits, appropriate gear, etc. I can assure you that coupled with garuda using hastega and predator claws, it is damage that keeps up with anyone else. The only real problem with staff is the WS- If you calculate the base DPS (ratio of damage to delay converted to seconds) the relic/mythic/empyrean staves are right up there with all the other ones. They are not inferior weapons, it is just difficult for the average person to make use of them. That is fine though- They're not for the average person, they're for dedicated specialists who think outside the box.


Make it so you don't lose TP when you swap themNo tp loss on weapon switching would be nice and allow BLM and SMN to actually make use of Occult Acumen; but this would probably be overpowered for other jobs. Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.



Following that, of course, is the hilarious catch: WHM can't even wield HvergelmirThats because WHM's main weapon is club, not staff. And Yagrush (sp?) is awesome and the most commonly obtained mythic in the game.

[Raksha]

Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.


no no no no no


no

[Zumi]

SE could actually learn from WoW on this one.

For example Blizzard is making a new Legendary staff for casters in their upcoming patch, the weapon is by far the best for any caster and there is a long quest and farming raids to get it, but in the end they have the best weapon they can get for the current patch and will let them do the most damage with their spells.

So why can't BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM get actual empyeran staffs and club that actually let them perform the best at what they do best which is casting spells?

[Dallas]

Seriously guys, go look at the DOT numbers on Hver 90 and Ukon 90. Hver is 7.5% under Ukon.

Hver 90:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hvergelmir_(90)

Ukon 90:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ukonvasara_(90)

This is a source of damage that most BLM/SCH/SMN don't touch with a 10-foot pole. No, you don't have the melee skills to make your staff "WAR awesome," but WAR don't use Tier V nukes, Hate-free avatar damage, or any of our numerous buffs/debuffs.

Yes, you will lose spike damage. You will do more total damage.

Myrkr is miles ahead of Spirit Taker, which can miss. SE did a great job designing a WS to surpass Spirit Taker. Not all emp weapons have WS that people want to use, so mages got the best deal.

Relic and Mythic are much weaker due to less popular WS, but they still surpass common weapons.

[Greatguardian]

You will do more total damage with an Empyrean staff than a Ukonvasara WAR?

Because of the Damage/Delay on the weapon with absolutely no regard for pDif/cRatio, fStr, x-hits, or Accuracy?

Using a weaponskill that does 0 damage?

Casting spells that interrupt TP'ing and take 5s~ (Blizzard V by not-suck blm) to cast?

Using BPs with a 45 second minimum cooldown?

Get out.

[Dallas]

I don't have to deal more damage than a Ukon WAR, I just have to do more damage than an ice staff SMN.

[Greatguardian]

So if you're hitting things in addition to BP'ing as opposed to just BP'ing, how are you "losing spike damage" again?

Your post made it sound very much like you were claiming to do "more total damage" than a Ukon WAR, and that is just absolutely, 110% batcrap preposterous. Something smells very much like safeface.

Edit: Also, looking at "DPS" numbers by comparing Damage/Delay ratios on weapons is an absolutely horrid way to compare anything at all ever. Please just stop talking about comparing your Emp Staff to anything but other Staves on other Mages until you realize this.

[Alhanelem]

Using a weaponskill that does 0 damage?

Using BPs with a 45 second minimum cooldown?


Myrkr gives you a high rate of double damage attacks after use. It indirectly does do damage. A LOT of damage, if you're using DD atmas. Yes, other jobs can get this too, but with a high damage, low delay 2H weapon, it works out really well. You may not beat the best WARs in total damage output, but you will easily be a mid to upper tier DD.

you don't cast spells. You use predator claws, and the hasted melee DoT of you and your avatar, which easily does thousands of damage in between blood pacts. Hell, with one double attack volley after a Myrkr, I did almost 1700 dmg (two crits for ~850 each)- a lucky triple attack did over 2k damage in a single volley. And that's not a weapon skill.

If you open your minds and stop playing theorycraft, you'll actually see how good it is. Find someone who has one and watch them play.

Cruor stat buffs blurr the difference in base attribute totals. Even on SMN, STR is my 2nd highest stat after MND, as a Galka with 6 merits in STR (1 in INT atm so capped) But when you have like +50 to all stats, the difference betwen my STR and some other DD's str becomes much smaller.

The BP cooldown is a problem yes... but you can easily belt out 5-8k predator claws each time it comes up. Both you and your avatar are hasted. The DMG output of this setup is much higher than you think it is. It's definitely higher than gearing for a max damage heavenly strike and not meleeing at all, despite how much people go OMG over a souped up heavenly strike. As long as you're fighting something that allows for melee DDs to be on the mob, a SMN can stand alongside them and perform at a level that makes it worthy of being in their presence. It was really quite pathetic when my melee DoT was matching that of a (admittedly gimp) DRK in my party.

[Greatguardian]

Myrkr gives you a high rate of double damage attacks after use. It indirectly does do damage. A LOT of damage, if you're using DD atmas. Yes, other jobs can get this too, but with a high damage, low delay 2H weapon, it works out really well. You may not beat the best WARs in total damage output, but you will easily be a mid to upper tier DD.

you don't cast spells. You use predator claws, and the hasted melee DoT of you and your avatar, which easily does thousands of damage in between blood pacts. Hell, with one double attack volley after a Myrkr, I did almost 1700 dmg (two crits for ~850 each)- a lucky triple attack did over 2k damage in a single volley. And that's not a weapon skill.

If you open your minds and stop playing theorycraft, you'll actually see how good it is. Find someone who has one and watch them play.

Cruor stat buffs blurr the difference in base attribute totals. Even on SMN, STR is my 2nd highest stat after MND, as a Galka with 6 merits in STR (1 in INT atm so capped) But when you have like +50 to all stats, the difference betwen my STR and some other DD's str becomes much smaller.

The BP cooldown is a problem yes... but you can easily belt out 5-8k predator claws each time it comes up. Both you and your avatar are hasted. The DMG output of this setup is much higher than you think it is. It's definitely higher than gearing for a max damage heavenly strike and not meleeing at all, despite how much people go OMG over a souped up heavenly strike. As long as you're fighting something that allows for melee DDs to be on the mob, a SMN can stand alongside them and perform at a level that makes it worthy of being in their presence. It was really quite pathetic when my melee DoT was matching that of a (admittedly gimp) DRK in my party.

I never said Emp staff sucked, or that using an Emp staff on SMN was a bad idea (I think it's neat, personally).

I said it was 110% batcrap preposterous to compare it to a Ukonvasara. I brought up spells because he mentioned BLM, SCH, and SMN. None of them are going to come anywhere near the total damage of a Ukonvasara with Emp staff, ever. The gap only widens with additional Haste buffs. There's "Emp staff Melee vs BP only", and then there's "Emp Staff is only 7% behind Ukonvasara plus we have spells/BP so we're better".

Edit: Ukon ODDs too.

[Byrth]

Aw mang, what an awesome DD SMN is. The DPS is only 7% behind Ukon... which means it's about 8% behind Twashtar. Maybe some day it'll be almost as good a DD as Bard. You want to talk "extra damage from abilities/magic?" How about Marches.

Anyway, stupid argument is stupid. Summoner's use is Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense. If you use it for more than that, you have tolerant friends or a lack of useful jobs.

[Tagrineth]

It was really quite pathetic when my melee DoT was matching that of a (admittedly gimp) DRK in my party.

Er... you are aware that DRK is pretty much the bottom-tier melee in Abyssea, right? Matching a "gimp DRK" in melee DoT is like saying you were able to "keep up" in the Special Olympics.

And again, you don't really get much in the way of gear that would help boost you any further than that.

So congratulations, your Empyrean weapon let you dangle just a hair above the bottom of the barrel... and that's even in Abyssea, where you get to cheat - by your own admission - with gigantic and completely free stat buffs.

I really think you're also badly missing the big issue that weapon skills provide a much, much larger % of a good DD's total damage than you seem to think - and is the reason top-tier DD will even wear gear like Hoard Ring and Tactical Mantle to ensure they WS as frequently as possible.

edit: Good catch on the DPS rating of Twashtar. <_<

[Dallas]

Aw mang, what an awesome DD SMN is. The DPS is only 7% behind Ukon... which means it's about 8% behind Twashtar. Maybe some day it'll be almost as good a DD as Bard. You want to talk "extra damage from abilities/magic?" How about Marches.

Anyway, stupid argument is stupid. Summoner's use is Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense. If you use it for more than that, you have tolerant friends or a lack of useful jobs.
Yeah, if you play SMN like that, I'd make you my March ho too.

[Alhanelem]

Aw mang, what an awesome DD SMN is. The DPS is only 7% behind Ukon... which means it's about 8% behind Twashtar. Maybe some day it'll be almost as good a DD as Bard. You want to talk "extra damage from abilities/magic?" How about Marches.

Anyway, stupid argument is stupid. Summoner's use is Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense. If you use it for more than that, you have tolerant friends or a lack of useful jobs.
You are stupid, end of story. I wish there was a nicer way to say it. Summoners can do a whole ton of things. They are not just cure bots or AV killers.


I said it was 110% batcrap preposterous to compare it to a Ukonvasara.I wasn't really the one making that direct comparison, it is an apples/oranges kind of thing. SMN can be a respectiable dealer of damage if you build for it. If only more people were a little more open minded than "you're a mage, cure me and give me stoneskin."


Er... you are aware that DRK is pretty much the bottom-tier melee in Abyssea, right?Right. Which means that a SMN DD setup is not bottom tier because it's better than that. That said, I disagree with how low DRK gets ranked in this. I realize you can't have it on all the time but souleater WS in abyssea are ridiculous. One trick pony, maybe. But a fun one trick pony.

[Dallas]

Al, I make the comparisons I do in a very specific way to lure the BG spies out from hiding. Here, I'll teach you how to do it as well:

Never start a melee SMN conversation mentioning avatars.

That's all there is to it. If I don't mention it, they don't know it exists. They are correct in one very specific argument: if you only look at auto-attack, you only have auto-attack.

I hope he retreats to bring back reinforcements!

[Bumbeen]

BG spies lol.

[Tagrineth]

Right. Which means that a SMN DD setup is not bottom tier because it's better than that. That said, I disagree with how low DRK gets ranked in this. I realize you can't have it on all the time but souleater WS in abyssea are ridiculous. One trick pony, maybe. But a fun one trick pony.

There's no agree/disagree here. DRK is the lowest. Yeah Souleater WS are ridiculous, but Souleater is on a six minute timer. An upper-class melee DD should be able to WS at least every ~20 seconds or thereabouts. DRK can actually gain TP decently well now thanks to the buff on Desperate Blows, so that means that even assuming inefficient WS every 30 seconds, that means 1 WS out of every 12, the DRK can use Souleater and make the WS compare to every other DD besides SAM that ISN'T using Souleater. SAM only beats DRK because of its better use of Meditate/Sekkanoki and more powerful average WS (the colossal STR boosts in abyssea DO make Gekko hit pretty hard, though it's definitely still not comparable to multi-hit crit WS that the "good" DD get).

Beating the lowest class "dedicated DD" with what is literally your absolute best weapon by a huge margin really isn't all that great. It IS impressive considering you get ZERO DD abilities/traits/dedicated gear, but I'd still tell you to get the fuck back out of range and just bloodpact FFS.

[Abelia]

Thank you for all the responses. It is always nice to get other's points of view.

[Leonlionheart]

You are stupid, end of story. I wish there was a nicer way to say it. Summoners can do a whole ton of things. They are not just cure bots or AV killers.

I wasn't really the one making that direct comparison, it is an apples/oranges kind of thing. SMN can be a respectiable dealer of damage if you build for it. If only more people were a little more open minded than "you're a mage, cure me and give me stoneskin."

Right. Which means that a SMN DD setup is not bottom tier because it's better than that. That said, I disagree with how low DRK gets ranked in this. I realize you can't have it on all the time but souleater WS in abyssea are ridiculous. One trick pony, maybe. But a fun one trick pony.

You're lying to yourself if you think that SMN can keep up with, well, anyone. It might beat out WHM, but Gambanteinn is pretty beastly too. In the end, SMN has absolutely nothing other than Perfect Defense going for it. Some good solo maybe, although anything a SMN can do I'm certain another job could solo better. I hate to say it, cause SMN is a great concept but you have to face the truth man.


Al, I make the comparisons I do in a very specific way to lure the BG spies out from hiding. Here, I'll teach you how to do it as well:

Never start a melee SMN conversation mentioning avatars.

That's all there is to it. If I don't mention it, they don't know it exists. They are correct in one very specific argument: if you only look at auto-attack, you only have auto-attack.

I hope he retreats to bring back reinforcements!

If you're saying that SMN Melee is the only job with auto-attack, which is what it sounds like, you're pretty wrong. WHM can Auto-attack too I heard.

No one else though, everyone just meditates for TP.

[Byrth]

Being 7% below Ukon makes it the lowest DPS Empyrean. That whole example was stupid.

Also, what does Summoner do better than other jobs while meleeing? It may be the best hateless damage source at range, but fights that require hateless damage sources at range generally don't want a Summoner meleeing. Beyond that, your actual DPS is dwarfed by every other job that claims the title "DD" (probably including PUP - who also does hateless damage) and you can't heal as well as White Mage. You can worry monsters to death safely if you have enough Summoners, but it's not very relevant these days with proc systems.

Play the job if you want. Lead linkshells that sing the praises of Summoner and impose your melee summoner on them every fight. Just don't forget that you're a burden.

PS. Git mad

[Korpg]

I'm guessing Dallas is forgetting things like Physical Damage and Magical Damage.

If you gear for Melee SMN, you would be great inside Abyssea, where you don't need the perp gear to do awesome melee damage on your SMN and avatar gets the boosts from atmas also.

Outside Abyssea? Your avatar wouldn't last more than 2 minutes with the melee gear needed to keep it out with the emp staff.

But Ukon is great outside of Abyssea as well as inside. If this game was only Abyssea, Dallas would have a point.

But then again, you got to understand his attitude.

Personally, I would listen to Alhanelem when it comes to melee SMN.

[Malamasala]

So why can't BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM get actual empyeran staffs and club that actually let them perform the best at what they do best which is casting spells?

I'm just glad SE didn't make the empy staff either a MAB staff or a cure potency staff. I'm sick and tired of all "all mages" weapons and armors being either WHM or BLM designed and never SMN designed.

[Korpg]

I'm just glad SE didn't make the empy staff either a MAB staff or a cure potency staff. I'm sick and tired of all "all mages" weapons and armors being either WHM or BLM designed and never SMN designed.

All we need is Nirvana.

You can't get any better than that. In fact, you don't NEED anything better than that.

[Alhanelem]

Al, I make the comparisons I do in a very specific way to lure the BG spies out from hiding. Here, I'll teach you how to do it as well:

Never start a melee SMN conversation mentioning avatars.

That's all there is to it. If I don't mention it, they don't know it exists. They are correct in one very specific argument: if you only look at auto-attack, you only have auto-attack.

I hope he retreats to bring back reinforcements!
Frankly the BG crowd can stay where they belong- they're too stuck up and stubborn for their own good.


All we need is Nirvana.

You can't get any better than that. In fact, you don't NEED anything better than that. Nirvana is great, if only for the pet MAB now. It's been superceded as a weapon, and the perp - is no longer really needed in the weapon slot with so much other perp and refresh available.

That and mythic weapons are nearly impossible to get. At least the empyrean weapon is obtainable.


Outside Abyssea? Your avatar wouldn't last more than 2 minutes with the melee gear needed to keep it out with the emp staff.It works just as well outside of abyssea. Your power decreases but so does everyone else's. And I don't understand your statement. You don't use a refresh or defensive atma in Abyssea with the DD setup. The avatar lasts just as long no matter where you are. I personally keep some of the perp on and mainly use non-visible gear slots for DD stuff (which is where the most DD type items are available anyway). I don't think you realize just how much MP Myrkr returns.

[Korpg]

Nirvana is great, if only for the pet MAB now. It's been superceded as a weapon, and the perp - is no longer really needed in the weapon slot with so much other perp and refresh available.

Of course, thats all you really need from a Nirvana. But who wouldn't say no to MAB+30 on Magical BPs?

Also, Nirvana gives that nice little stat that makes gearing for melee that much nicer (Acc+30).

I'm not saying that the perp- isn't needed, but its way too much now with +2 armors. But it is still the best weapon for BPs.



It works just as well outside of abyssea. Your power decreases but so does everyone else's. And I don't understand your statement. You don't use a refresh or defensive atma in Abyssea with the DD setup. The avatar lasts just as long no matter where you are. I personally keep some of the perp on and mainly use non-visible gear slots for DD stuff (which is where the most DD type items are available anyway). I don't think you realize just how much MP Myrkr returns.

Pwer does decrease, but it decreases at a more rapid rate than actual DDs. Its easy for a WAR to go from doing 10k Ukko's Fury to a 4k Ukko's Fury, and still have a decent DoT rate. Also, WARs are also able to obtain TP really easy, even on IT+ mobs. SMN, however, have a horrible rate of obtaining TP, even with capped skill and fighting DCs or higher. Sure, you can gear for it, and have a small increase of TP gain, but you are losing out a lot of perp- gear, and by the time you are able to get 300% TP, you would have less than 10% of your MP, if at best! Although, this is speculation.

I can ride Convert timers with only +4 refresh (+1 from auto-refresh traits and absolute free avatars, and +3 from Refresh from /RDM) and still do ~10 BPs without even any of them Blood Boon procs. If anything lasts that long that is.

Inside Abyssea I use Minkin so I don't HAVE to use convert at all. I can BP:R and BP:W without converting. Maybe adding a Mana Cede every now and then.

But thats my playstyle. Generally I only solo as SMN, with a very rare occasion of petkills party.

That's why I'm probably will never get an emp staff. Well, unless I have everything else.

[Sparthos]

It works just as well outside of abyssea. Your power decreases but so does everyone else's. And I don't understand your statement. You don't use a refresh or defensive atma in Abyssea with the DD setup. The avatar lasts just as long no matter where you are. I personally keep some of the perp on and mainly use non-visible gear slots for DD stuff (which is where the most DD type items are available anyway). I don't think you realize just how much MP Myrkr returns.

On anything remotely difficult outside Abyssea you're putting yourself in AOE range/-ja/-ga4 range for minimal gains. By the time you get TP to use Myrkr, you've either drained another mages MP keeping you alive, used up MP curing yourself or have died to the variety of AOE TP, AOE attacks (Hahava/Celaeno/Voidwrought/Ixion-style dd) or AOE aura effects.

Everyone's power decreases but DD SMN is something that just isn't practical in a world where HP pools are smaller and eating AOE is less than ideal(deadly). It's like DD BRD - a toy that exists inside the world of Abyssea where everyone can potentially be awesome but make no mistake it sucks outside and isn't worth eating the lightest of AOE.

On garbage like Sea NMs or Sky or other 75 content? Sure, DD SMN away but don't be surprised when your acc is terrible on anything designed for lvl90 outside Abyssea.

That being said, the staves should have had relevant stats for mages (hiRelic) or access to spells locked otherwise like the Twilight Cloak. In their current states the weapons just don't make enough of an impact (see what I did there?) to be worth the effort beyond the Empyrean weapons. Never have.

Everytime I see a Claustrum my heart sinks knowing all that work went into a weapon that practically will never be used outside clowning around.

[Alhanelem]

Its easy for a WAR to go from doing 10k Ukko's Fury to a 4k Ukko's Fury, and still have a decent DoT rate.Same for SMN. The whole point of the weapon is the higher DoT. Staff is not about its weapon skills. But you also have an avatar up doing its own melee DoT and the periodic spike damage.


and by the time you are able to get 300% TP, you would have less than 10% of your MP, if at best!My personal experience declares this false. If you can't keep your MP up from one TP to the next, you're doing something wrong. And even if that's the case, you still have elemental siphon to fall back on.
Offensive gear in the visible gear slots is pretty limited. So you can keep most of your perp- and refresh, and favor the rings/earrings/back/waist/neck/weapon/grip. Additionally, Myrkr's mod is max MP (effectively), and with your usual SMN gear mostly having lots of MP on it, you will have it on for that. If you are using up more than 60% of your MP in the time it takes to build TP, you're doing something seriously wrong.

You can exercise your right to not use this playstyle, but I will exercise my right to say and prove that it is a useable and viable playstyle.


Everytime I see a Claustrum my heart sinks knowing all that work went into a weapon that practically will never be used outside clowning around. Anyone who builds one of these weapons is not "clowning around." They are among the most serious and dedicated about their job. Besides, it is their right and privilege to get whatever weapon they want, who are you to tell them it's wrong?

[Sparthos]

Anyone who builds one of these weapons is not "clowning around." They are among the most serious and dedicated about their job. Besides, it is their right and privilege to get whatever weapon they want, who are you to tell them it's wrong?

If you're serious about a class, you understand and recognize the flaws of the given job. Failing to do so is a show of denial. This isn't about elitism, the facts are simply the facts.

-BLM is a terrible damage dealer yet Claustrum encourages melee-oriented play. The weapon does nothing to enhance the magical aspect of the class.
-SMN is slightly better than BLM at melee yet Claustrum again does nothing to enhance the nature of the class.

Why would you chase these weapons down other than show off at Easy Prey mobs/Jeuno? You won't nuke harder, your avatars wont behave any differently so you're basically just clowning around and there is nothing wrong with that....

'til you realize you spent months if not over a year to master the art of killing Easy Preys that much faster.

If you're dedicated to a class, you understand the staff weapons (barring Mythics) are largely impractical and inferior to other easier options. I won't tell people not to get these but the numbers will not lie.

You will do worse nuking in a Claustrum.
Your Claustrum will do nothing on SMN.
The weapon by definition lacks utility outside soloing EPs.

[Alhanelem]

If you're serious about a class, you understand and recognize the flaws of the given job. Failing to do so is a show of denial. This isn't about elitism, the facts are simply the facts. Wrong. If you're serious about your class, you overcome the weaknesses of the job and become able to wield it for things people couldn't before. Using a relic/empyrean weapon and building a DD kit isn't a denial of anything. The facts are not being presented by you, thus they are not simply the facts. You do not have the facts because you do not have these weapons, this gear or have played this play style and know nothing except the theorycraft, which usually varies significantly from what people actually perform. We who are doing this already know about the formulas and the numbers.

The actual facts are this is a competent, viable strategy for those who prepare for it, and while it may not surpass what some other jobs are capable of, it DOES expand the capability of summoner and enables it to do more things with less help. Thinking outside the box and being creative with what you do allows you to dedicate yourself to your job instead of playing every single job just to be able to do everything you need to do. This isn't about being the best, it's about being more flexible and capable of a wider range of things.


-SMN is slightly better than BLM at melee yet Claustrum again does nothing to enhance the nature of the class.It absolutely does. It enhances the damage-dealing nature of the class when using the class to inflict damage. The simple fact is that while an avatar can launch out some nice spike damage with its blood pact, you can inflict more damage if the avatar continues to fight before and after and if the master also fights. Both the relic and empyrean weaponskills offer you more tools to maintain your MP to allow this damage dealing to continue. I will not argue about BLM, because it cannot help them in any way short of using a TP wing in abyssea, and they are more dependent on elemental staves/MAB and must constantly switch weapons, while summoner doesn't have to do that.


The weapon by definition lacks utility outside soloing EPs.Funny, those 800 damage crits against T mobs sure lacked utlity. Funny, those NMs I killed with melee-atma-buffed predator claws and recovering MP with myrkr to last the whole fight aren't EP mobs...

These weapons have great utility because they make something possible that wasn't very possible or at least not effective enough otherwise (Well, there was the mekki-shakki I guess, but that's about it). Nirvana in particular has no business being in a thread about weapons lacking utility for conventional summoner purposes, but all of these weapons are of some use to someone who knows how to use them.

[Sparthos]

Wrong. If you're serious about your class, you overcome the weaknesses of the job and become able to wield it for things people couldn't before. Using a relic/empyrean weapon and building a DD kit isn't a denial of anything. The facts are not being presented by you, thus they are not simply the facts. You do not have the facts because you do not have these weapons, this gear or have played this play style and know nothing except the theorycraft, which usually varies significantly from what people actually perform. We who are doing this already know about the formulas and the numbers.

How do you propose to overcome the fact that melee puts your frail SMN in range of deadly AOEs more than likely to kill you? Just pretend the mob isn't swinging, using tp or aoes I guess. How do you intend to overcome SMN and BLMs terrible hitrate on anything that matters (IT mobs, NMs, HNMs designed for lvl90)? How about the fact that meleeing on a mage puts you at more risk than standing back and doing what you do best?

But please, show me parses of your damage outside Abyssea with the Empyrean staff on Voidwatch or other content designed for level 90 players.

Like I said before, melee SMN or BLM for that matter is simply something to do on things that do not matter (old content, EP mobs) or within Abyssea where anyone can pass as being a good melee. It isn't useful on anything harder because you put yourself in danger of dying for pitifully low amounts of extra damage through staff melee.


The simple fact is that while an avatar can launch out some nice spike damage with its blood pact, you can inflict more damage if the avatar continues to fight before and after and if the master also fights. Both the relic and empyrean weaponskills offer you more tools to maintain your MP to allow this damage dealing to continue. I will not argue about BLM, because it cannot help them in any way short of using a TP wing in abyssea, and they are more dependent on elemental staves/MAB and must constantly switch weapons, while summoner doesn't have to do that.

Funny, those 800 damage crits against T mobs sure lacked utlity. Funny, those NMs I killed with melee-atma-buffed predator claws and recovering MP with myrkr to last the whole fight aren't EP mobs...

You keep mentioning Abyssea where you have a plethora of buffs supporting you and where ironically enough damage doesn't mean much without procs backing them up.

If you want to make waves and show how great melee SMN is, do it outside Abyssea. At least there you'd have a leg to stand on when you exclaim that melee SMN is a viable option.

Outside Abyssea where the rest of the game is (whats left of it), the Relic staff fails to live up to the reputation as an "ultimate weapon" granted it focuses on something the two classes do poorly at on anything that matters.

[Alhanelem]

How do you propose to overcome the fact that melee puts your frail SMN in range of deadly AOEs more than likely to kill you?I'm not frail. I'm a Galka, and if it's deadly to me, it's deadly to others. If I can't be in melee range, then no one who isn't a tank can be either.

What part about this isn't ALWAYS applicable don't you understand? This isn't an end-all, replace everything else strategy. It is just one way of playing the job. There are many other ways that also come in handy in many situations. What part of this aren't you getting?

It's not like we are suddenly incapable of using normal SMN strategies just because we got these weapons.


If you want to make waves and show how great melee SMN is, do it outside Abyssea. At least there you'd have a leg to stand on when you exclaim that melee SMN is a viable option.It is just as effective, if not more, outside of abyssea. It's just easier to display it there with people doing it all the time, and since Abyssea is the big thing right now, what you do there is what matters most.

[Sparthos]

I'm not frail. I'm a Galka, and if it's deadly to me, it's deadly to others. If I can't be in melee range, then no one who isn't a tank can be either.

Plenty of mobs where DD can be in range taking AOE so long as the support can handle it. PDT/MDT etc etc.


What part about this isn't ALWAYS applicable don't you understand? This isn't an end-all, replace everything else strategy. It is just one way of playing the job. There are many other ways that also come in handy in many situations. What part of this aren't you getting?

Guess you didn't bother to read where I said SMN melee is practically viable.

Weak mobs (lacking crippling aoes), lvl75 content and Abyssea are where it becomes an applicable strategy.

If you want to believe that Claustrum is fine as a melee tool that does nothing to improve the main talents of BLM and SMN, that's fine. I'll continue to acknowledge Claustrum as one of the many failures SE failed to address over the years.

No serious BLM will ever cast in Claustrum and melee SMN practicality is so slim that for the most part you'll never put the weapon to use.

It's a pretty legitimate reason for me to weep at any complete Claustrums. Well that and the disturbing prospect that hundreds of LS hours went into a solo toy.

[Malamasala]

-SMN is slightly better than BLM at melee yet Claustrum again does nothing to enhance the nature of the class.

It is leaps better at melee, due to mainly just having a 0.1 second activation delay on JA's instead of 5 seconds spell casting delays. I've always said SMN is even better than DRK for actual melee rounds, they just get screwed on armors.

[Korpg]

My personal experience declares this false. If you can't keep your MP up from one TP to the next, you're doing something wrong. And even if that's the case, you still have elemental siphon to fall back on.
Offensive gear in the visible gear slots is pretty limited. So you can keep most of your perp- and refresh, and favor the rings/earrings/back/waist/neck/weapon/grip. Additionally, Myrkr's mod is max MP (effectively), and with your usual SMN gear mostly having lots of MP on it, you will have it on for that. If you are using up more than 60% of your MP in the time it takes to build TP, you're doing something seriously wrong.

You can exercise your right to not use this playstyle, but I will exercise my right to say and prove that it is a useable and viable playstyle.

Well, I still don't see the reason behind Emp staff. Then again, not many people actually have one either.

If I'm going to make a superweapon for SMN, my choice would be Nirvana.

[Alhanelem]

any normal mobs, lvl90 content and Abyssea are where it becomes an applicable strategy. Fixed that for you. Any fight in which DDs can spend time in close proximity to the target, the SMN can do it too.


If I'm going to make a superweapon for SMN, my choice would be Nirvana. I would like one too, but it's almost impossible. The Empyrean staff suits my purposes, and is not insurmountable to obtain (up to the lv85 version- Azdaja is a pain for all of the relevant trials =\)

Is this strategy amazing, oh, my god the best thing there is for anything? No. Is it useable, viable, and effective, and does it expand SMN's versatility and capability? Yes, it does, and that's the whole point. I'm not suggesting anyone throw away their Soulscourges or bahamut staves or whatever else you might be using. But if you want to try something different that can be both fun and effective, that's what it's there for. There's nothing more or less to it than that.


It is leaps better at melee, due to mainly just having a 0.1 second activation delay on JA's instead of 5 seconds spell casting delays. I've always said SMN is even better than DRK for actual melee rounds, they just get screwed on armors. Pretty much the truth. My melee attack rounds don't look much different from those of any other 2-hander. The fact that most SMNs are using staves with DMG ratings lower than some daggers is what leads to these misconceptions. If BLM got better than D skill in scythe and access to all the same scythes as DRK, they wouldn't be terrible at their melee swings either.

[Leonlionheart]

You ignored my comment :[

Let's just to some comparisons by eye-balled observations anyone can make against two non-assisted Empyrean classes.

DRK, which has been stated to be one of the worst in Abyssea (although personally I don't agree)
and SMN.

DRK using Redemption, because we all know Caladbolg is beastly so this would get my point out more.
SMN using Hvergelmir.

DRK: 25% true haste in gear easily, along with 15% DA and 2% TA. Capped accuracy, gets to use RCB or STP food.
SMN: Zelus (8) +Goliard (4)+ Ninurta (6)+ Nashira Hands (1)+ Nashira Legs (2)+ Nashira Feet (1)= 22% in gear, losing tons of needed accuracy, since SMN won't actually be capped without the use of food.

DRK: 25% JA haste 60% of the time (assuming no recast merits). (something like 72% of the time with merits)
SMN: 15% Spell Haste all of the time. Not bad.

DRK: Capable of 6hit without /sam. Roughly 25 seconds for 100% TP.
SMN: Gets a 9hit :\ Roughly 37 seconds for 100%, you'll be saving for 300% to keep your great aftermath. Probably. Either way it doesn't matter since I'll just assume you both always have aftermath (DRK will assuming DA or TA procs), and SMN WS doesn't even do damage. Oh, and this is assuming 100% accuracy, which SMN doesn't easily get.

DRK: Crits doing probably 600 normally and ODD for 1.2k+. Probably a lot more, just saying what my WAR usually does. DRK is actually hitting faster than SMN with Last Resort up, and Crits will probably be more like 800 and 1.6k with Souleater.
SMN: Crits doing 300~400 (roughly what a MNK will be doing per hit with impetus up lol) ODD for 700~900. A SMN's Avatar is doing probably like 120 normal, and maaaybe 300 damage crits. They don't get your gear haste however. If Garuda ever dies, you have to stop and recast too, where as DRK doesn't actually need it's spells.

Here's the kicker:
DRK: A good quietus can do upwards of 3k damage. Every ->25<- seconds.
SMN: 45 seconds to do 4k Predator Claws, which you have to switch out all of your gear to do. More like 3k on NMs, where as Quietus scales better on tougher mobs.

DRK is doing nearly the same spike damage nearly twice as fast, and it's hits are doing twice as much at the same speed.

SMN is awful.

[Alhanelem]

losing tons of needed accuracy, since SMN won't actually be capped without the use of food.Nonsense.B skill + merits gives you plenty enough accuracy for ordinary stuff. Then, in Abyssea, your DEX is ridiculously boosted, giving you more accuracy.


Oh, and this is assuming 100% accuracy,Accuracy caps at 95%.
Souleater has a 6 min recast.
Last resort is not active 100% of the time.


SMN: 45 seconds to do 5k Heavenly Strike, which you have to switch out all of your gear to do. More like 3k on NMs, where as Quietus scales better on tougher mobs.You don't do heavenly strike. You do Predator Claws. Which can easily do 8k or more with a DD atma set.


SMN is awful. You are awful. You don't even know what you're talking about? Why would I build a DD setup and use heavenly strike (which isn't going to do 5k damage in a DD setup anyway)? You also fail to factor in the avatar's DoT, which brings the SMN's total DoT in line with the DRK if not past it. If worse comes to worse, can DRKs pet with a kite or immediately adapt to a totally different strategy if the situation demands it? No. All DRK can do is kill shit. SMN can do a lot more than that.

[Leonlionheart]

Nonsense.B skill + merits gives you plenty enough accuracy for ordinary stuff. Then, in Abyssea, your DEX is ridiculously boosted, giving you more accuracy.

Accuracy caps at 95%.
Souleater has a 6 min recast.
Last resort is not active 100% of the time.

You don't do heavenly strike. You do Predator Claws. Which can easily do 8k or more with a DD atma set.

You are awful. You don't even know what you're talking about? Why would I build a DD setup and use heavenly strike (which isn't going to do 5k damage in a DD setup anyway)? You also fail to factor in the avatar's DoT, which brings the SMN's total DoT in line with the DRK if not past it. If worse comes to worse, can DRKs pet with a kite or immediately adapt to a totally different strategy if the situation demands it? No. All DRK can do is kill shit. SMN can do a lot more than that.


Heavenly Stike was a typo broseph. And I did factor in avatar's DoT, their DoT just sucks.

Even still, we're talking about DoT, not kiting.

EDIT: Pics of 8k or it didn't happen.
Edit2: Used 100% accuracy to level the playing field.

[Alhanelem]

Heavenly Stike was a typo brosephThat's one hell of a typo. "Heavenly strike" and "predator claws" barely share any letters in common. =\


Even still, we're talking about DoT, not kiting.We're talking about everything a SMN can do. If a SMN gets in trouble, he can adapt and alter his strategy to survive. all a DRK can do is keep attacking.

[Leonlionheart]

That's one hell of a typo. "Heavenly strike" and "predator claws" barely share any letters in common. =\

I don't use predator claws on SMN personally, I'm geared for Heavenly Strike mab so that's where my head goes.

[Dallas]

Inside Abyssea I use Minkin so I don't HAVE to use convert at all. I can BP:R and BP:W without converting. Maybe adding a Mana Cede every now and then.

Inside Abyssea, I use 3x physical atma because I get 1500MP from Myrkr whenever I feel like it. I sub /WHM to get all those proc WS which I can use because I have TP. I also get Cure 4, which I use whenever I feel like it because I have MP flowing out my ears.

Sure, you could put away /RDM but you are still riding that MM Atma like it's paying for college. You can't possibly compete, so why do you try?


I don't use predator claws on SMN personally, I'm geared for Heavenly Strike mab so that's where my head goes.

2/3 of your potential damage does not benefit from MAB builds. ALL potential damage can benefit from a physical build. The gear is better too.

[Alhanelem]

Without using Dallas' language, you really don't need RDM or SCH sub, or Minikin to function just fine on SMN.

[Leonlionheart]

2/3 of your potential damage does not benefit from MAB builds. ALL potential damage can benefit from a physical build. The gear is better too.

I only got SMN to 90 for kicks and giggles, and never use it for any practical situations.

WAR, MNK, and BLU deal more damage, WHM and BLU heal better, and BLM and BLU nuke better than SMN.

Although if I find myself fighting against a worm, or something that needs kiting, I will consider bringing SMN out of the closet.

[Leonlionheart]

Without using Dallas' language, you really don't need RDM or SCH sub, or Minikin to function just fine on SMN.

Not every SMN has Hvergelmir.

[Alhanelem]

Not every SMN has Hvergelmir.
You don't really need that either, from an MP standpoint. SMN MP is easy to manage...


I only got SMN to 90 for kicks and giggles, and never use it for any practical situations.Then you're in no position to comment on topics like this.

There isn't anything you can't kill with a few SMN in some way or another.

[Dallas]

Before Hvergelmir, there are a dozen acceptable staves to use with Spirit Taker. No, you won't be taking off all that perp gear anytime soon, but you will be self-sustaining. I recommend that 75 DMG, 2% haste staff. It's the highest damage/no work staff out there, as I recall.

The good/bad news is all SMN melee gear is suitable for all jobs. If you have a meleeing (anything non-traditional) you probably have the gear.

[Leonlionheart]

You don't really need that either, from an MP standpoint. SMN MP is easy to manage...

Then you're in no position to comment on topics like this.

There isn't anything you can't kill with a few SMN in some way or another.

I know everything about the job, and this is in general discussion not the SMN forums. Hell my BRD is 18 but I know how to play it, how does that change my position to comment?

You can kill stuff with a few SMN, yeah. Without procs. In twice the time than it would take for a MNK and WHM to do it.

[Alhanelem]

If your BRD is 18 you have no experience. Knowledge doesn't equate to skill or experience. (That being said, BRD is about the simplest job in the game...)

If you're not taking a job seriously, as you have suggested you aren't, then you shouldn't be participating in serious discussion on it.


In twice the time than it would take for a MNK and WHM to do it.Good for them. I'm not a MNK or WHM, so I don't care.

[Leonlionheart]

If your BRD is 18 you have no experience. Knowledge doesn't equate to skill or experience. (That being said, BRD is about the simplest job in the game...)

If you're not taking a job seriously, as you have suggested you aren't, then you shouldn't be participating in serious discussion on it.

Good for them. I'm not a MNK or WHM, so I don't care.

IDK what game you're playing, but in this one knowledge is pretty much the same as experience.

Either way, I'm discussing the effectiveness of a job overall in terms of cold hard facts. In terms of actual feasibility SMN doesn't cut it. At all.

DPS is lower than everyone, and the only way it really does damage is every 45 seconds, when real DDs when pushing their limits can deal twice as much damage every 5 seconds.

The only thing SMN has going for it, and they are actually great things, is Kiting forever (good SMNs essentially never die) and Perfect Defense. At the moment in the game these are relatively useless however.

[Alhanelem]

IDK what game you're playing, but in this one knowledge is pretty much the same as experience. Sorry, no. It's not the same thing. Keep trying, though.


In terms of actual feasibility SMN doesn't cut it.It is completely totally feasible. You're just too blinded and inexperienced to see it.


DPS is lower than everyone,False.


and the only way it really does damage is every 45 seconds,False.


when real DDs when pushing their limits can deal twice as much damage every 5 seconds.False. I don't know anyone that can bust out 10-15k damage every SIX (need 2 ticks for 100 TP) seconds without a primeval brew. Exaggeration and hyperbole do not help your point.

[Korpg]

Is this strategy amazing, oh, my god the best thing there is for anything? No. Is it useable, viable, and effective, and does it expand SMN's versatility and capability? Yes, it does, and that's the whole point. I'm not suggesting anyone throw away their Soulscourges or bahamut staves or whatever else you might be using. But if you want to try something different that can be both fun and effective, that's what it's there for. There's nothing more or less to it than that.


Bolded part for emphasis.

Something we can all learn from. Is Emp staves the best out there for SMN? No, because it is an alternative to a playstyle.

That's why I like talking to you Al. You don't say "if you don't melee, you are gimp and are hurting your party" and instead say what it really is.

[Korpg]

IDK what game you're playing, but in this one knowledge is pretty much the same as experience.

Either way, I'm discussing the effectiveness of a job overall in terms of cold hard facts. In terms of actual feasibility SMN doesn't cut it. At all.

DPS is lower than everyone, and the only way it really does damage is every 45 seconds, when real DDs when pushing their limits can deal twice as much damage every 5 seconds.

The only thing SMN has going for it, and they are actually great things, is Kiting forever (good SMNs essentially never die) and Perfect Defense. At the moment in the game these are relatively useless however.

I don't know of any other job that can solo Onvi.....

SMN isn't worthless, it is a great job for a different perspective player.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Dnc, Nin, Cor, anything that can pin it...

[Korpg]

Isn't that against ToS? To pin a NM against the environment?

[Neisan_Quetz]

No because he can legitimately kill you at flee speed if you don't keep moving.

EDIT: Terrain exploitation was patched by SE was because Iron Giants could be forced in a position where they were literally 'stuck' and could not hit you, ever, no matter what they did, this was an exploit and was patched. There was a patch on height but I don't remember if it was the same patch... Pinning was never condemned by SE nor was it condoned to my knowledge.

[Zetonegi]

BST can solo Ovni and it comes with TH.

[Korpg]

BST can solo Ovni and it comes with TH.

I didn't know that.

Same thing as SMN solo? PDT-87.5% and Regen Atmas out of the rear end?

[Leonlionheart]

False. I don't know anyone that can bust out 10-15k damage every SIX (need 2 ticks for 100 TP) seconds without a primeval brew. Exaggeration and hyperbole do not help your point.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Retaliation can give WARs instant 100% directly after using TP, there's a video on the war forums to prove it.

SMN DD is not even CLOSE to WAR, but it's not even close to SAM or DRK for that matter.

No one can bust out 10~15K in 6 seconds your right, but no one can bust out those spikes in 30 seconds either, or 44 seconds for that matter.

Exaggeration and hyperbole don't help your argument.

[Leonlionheart]

BST can solo Ovni and it comes with TH.

THF can solo Ovni and it comes with TH lol.

[Korpg]

No because he can legitimately kill you at flee speed if you don't keep moving.

EDIT: Terrain exploitation was patched by SE was because Iron Giants could be forced in a position where they were literally 'stuck' and could not hit you, ever, no matter what they did, this was an exploit and was patched. There was a patch on height but I don't remember if it was the same patch... Pinning was never condemned by SE nor was it condoned to my knowledge.

I know of some people who got banned for pinning, that is what I was saying.

On Iron Giants before the patch too.

[Korpg]

THF can solo Ovni and it comes with TH lol.

I mean complete solo.

Having a WHM curing you is not a solo.

[Leonlionheart]

I mean complete solo.

Having a WHM curing you is not a solo.

I mean complete solo too. THF/DNC, you should have enough evasion to not need shadows anyway.

Edit: Seen THF/RDM do it too.

[Korpg]

I mean complete solo too. THF/DNC, you should have enough evasion to not need shadows anyway.

Meaning you never tried it before, right?

Or seen it happen.

Or realize that it would take longer than you think, and therefore have to worry about rage timers at 60 minutes

When I did it, it took me almost 58 minutes to solo, and I was lucky to have some +2 procs happen at the best possible times, or at all.

Onvi was the hardest solo I have done so far, and I was already hitting rage timer when I finally killed it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The hell, watched a pink dnc kill ovni in like 20 minutes max.

[Leonlionheart]

Seriously, Ovni is suuuuuuper easy lol. I've seen it solo'd a million and two times.

Oh I solo'd it on MNK but I used meds and 2x 2Hour so I don't usually count that.

[Alhanelem]

Pics or it didn't happen.I was referring to what YOU were saying. I can put out 6-8k on predator claws (when multi attacks proc, which happens a lot with VV atma) on anything that odesn't get oneshotted (if you oneshot, you may not see the full damage because extra hits do not get a chance to register). You then claimed that you can put out twice as much damage, and every 5 seconds. You're the one who needs to be posting pics or it didn't happen.

Even a SAM doesn't average 1 WS every 5 seconds. Its only possible with a brew.

[Korpg]

Seriously, Ovni is suuuuuuper easy lol. I've seen it solo'd a million and two times.

Oh I solo'd it on MNK but I used meds and 2x 2Hour so I don't usually count that.

Well, with meds, and brew, anyone can solo Ovni

I'm talking about straight up solo, no meds, no brew, nothing but job abilities and kiting.

[Greatguardian]

WAR can 5-hit 100TP in about 8 seconds assuming 0 DA and 0 TA. Since they're rocking ridiculous amounts of both in Abyssea, yes, it's nowhere near "POIDH impossible" to average 1 WS/5s. It's called Haste. In case it wasn't blatantly bloody obvious, yes, it is the single biggest thing tipping the scales away from Smn and magic-based DDs. You don't get to leave it out anyways.

Christ, people are so bloody defensive about their pet/"lulz" jobs. I say lulz with quotes to refer to "Jobs the community as a whole considers lulz, that people get very defensive about".

Can SMN hit things with a staff? Duh. Does it do so well? Duh. Is it better than sitting around with an ice staff assuming you're not being a complete dumbcrap about AoEs? Duh. If I was on SMN for whatever nutball reason, would I be melee'ing with an Emp staff? Duh.

Can you compare an Emp staff SMN to a Ukonvasara WAR in terms of damage output? Hell. No. I do not even care how high your avatar DoT and your Pclaws are. You are using a WS that does 0 damage, with absolute crap for pDif (No, you are not bloody attack capped even in Abyssea), absolute crap Haste options (22% absolute max, 21% w/o Ninurta's Sash), Dare I say again, a WS that does zero damage (or a solid Full Swing at 100TP is maybe 1k-1.5k damage), crap for x-hit options for when you're actually using full swing, and a 45s BP timer.

Oh yeah, Ovni is easy, and saying "SMN is a better melee DD than WAR" and claiming it's "A ruse to bring out the BG spies" is the absolute worst flabbergasting excuse of a safeface I have ever seen in my entire life. Personally, I'm no spy. I have more posts here in a few months than I've had on BG in years. I post on both websites. So what? You were still completely and utterly wrong, and any retroactive attempt to play it off as "Just a joke to trollz the peoplez" is nothing short of juvenile. When you say something dumb, own up to it and move the fargo on.

Edit: if you're talking about kiting Ovni .... well, it explains how it was humanly possible to take 60 minutes. But I'd stop calling people out very quickly, because that is absolute crap and even I've seen full pink troglodytes kill it faster solo (not to mention having done so faster myself).

[Leonlionheart]

Well, with meds, and brew, anyone can solo Ovni

I'm talking about straight up solo, no meds, no brew, nothing but job abilities and kiting.

Yeah, THF can do it.

[Leonlionheart]

Even a SAM doesn't average 1 WS every 5 seconds. Its only possible with a brew.

Completely false, see Greatguardian's post.

[Alhanelem]

WAR can 5-hit 100TP in about 8 seconds assuming 0 DA and 0 TA. Since they're rocking ridiculous amounts of both in Abyssea, yes, it's nowhere near "POIDH impossible" to average 1 WS/5s. It's called Haste.bullshiat. I know what haste is, but you need to be near the absolute cap to pull that off, and that can only be done with other jobs supporting you- And if you have those, I can too. Thus, the only gap in haste is what's on gear- SMN has haste the spell, so it doesn't need that, and the rest of the haste you need to get 100 TP that fast has to come from other sources such as haste samba, Hasso, etc.

You can sub SAM, but if I really wanted to compete in a epeen contest, I could too (but I probably wouldn't otherwise.

[Leonlionheart]

bullshiat. I know what haste is, but you need to be near the absolute cap to pull that off, and that can only be done with other jobs supporting you- And if you have those, I can too.

Here's the proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vybkARXCeCU

inb4 he wasn't solo, because who in the WORLD goes and kills seal NMs solo? You gotta be a total moron.

Oh and yes you can get march too, but your avatar- the real source of your spike damage- can't. Haste doesn't help BP recast at all.

[Greatguardian]

bullshiat. I know what haste is, but you need to be near the absolute cap to pull that off, and that can only be done with other jobs supporting you- And if you have those, I can too.

"No shit, sherlock". You can get those all you want. Your Garuda can't. You go spam your 1k Full Swing in between 0 damage WS's at 80% Haste and see how well you stack up against an 80% Haste Ukonvasara.

inb4 "Teaming up doesn't count"

[Alhanelem]

inb4 he wasn't soloHe wasn't solo.

As long as you can cap gear haste, anyone can attack that fast with all the support buffs.

[Leonlionheart]

He wasn't solo.

As long as you can cap gear haste, anyone can attack that fast with all the support buffs.

Yep, but SMN can't do 5k WS damage. Using TP. Not MP and BP Recast timer.

[Greatguardian]

He wasn't solo.

As long as you can cap gear haste, anyone can attack that fast with all the support buffs.

Okay then. So you agree it comes down to how strong the WS is, and how much damage is being dealt per hit. Tell me, are you 6-hitting your Staff? Or 7? Low delay weapons are notoriously hard to x-hit. Oh yeah, what about your attack level? Maybe 500-600 including RCB? You're not capped on even trash mobs till ~800, GL capping on anything stronger on SMN/SAM.

Edit: SMN can't cap gear haste. Prove me wrong.

[Alhanelem]

What's your point, anyway? This isn't about being the best DD ever. It is, however, about increasing SMN's damage output beyond what is typical of the job.


Edit: SMN can't cap gear haste. Prove me wrong. I've never made that claim. And this is the ONLY disparity- being a 2hander, I could use Hasso if I really wanted, and all the other effects come from other people supporting that WAR, which means I can have all those effects too.
So we're talking about a ~2-3% haste difference, as far as I can tell. Big flipping e-peen whoop. I don't care.

This is really like talking to a brick wall, as you don't understand the purpose of this. So I will conclude by simply quoting myself from earlier in the thread, which other people have also quoted whom understand the point:


Is this strategy amazing, oh, my god the best thing there is for anything? No. Is it useable, viable, and effective, and does it expand SMN's versatility and capability? Yes, it does, and that's the whole point. I'm not suggesting anyone throw away their Soulscourges or bahamut staves or whatever else you might be using. But if you want to try something different that can be both fun and effective, that's what it's there for. There's nothing more or less to it than that.

[Greatguardian]

What's your point, anyway? This isn't about being the best DD ever. It is, however, about increasing SMN's damage output beyond what is typical of the job.

This is really like talking to a brick wall, as you don't understand the purpose of this. So I will conclude by simply quoting myself from earlier in the thread, which other people have also quoted whom understand the point:

Wrong.

I know damn well that SMN can DD effectively as opposed to sitting on the sidelines using a BP once every minute. I have said so half a dozen times now.

The issue I take, and took, and that you ran headlong into on page 3 of this thread without bothering to read for comprehension everything that was being said, is simply Dallas claiming that SMN Emp Staff can do more total damage than a Ukonvasara WAR.

Your completely misguided, defensive and over-reactive freak-out at those of us claiming otherwise has simply allowed him to skate by and attempt to safeface with absolute pile of crap excuses like "herp derp I just said it to bring out the BG spies".

Realize that some of us arguing with you are on your side, and some of the people behind you are making it a whole lot worse for you.

[Leonlionheart]

What's your point, anyway? This isn't about being the best DD ever. It is, however, about increasing SMN's damage output beyond what is typical of the job.

Cool, so we are at an understanding that SMN is quite a poor DD. Using the staff makes it better than it used to be, obviously.

SE needs to get fixing SMN.

[Alhanelem]

And that's about the only thing I can half-heartedly agree with you on, that the job could use a boost. But it's far from "broken." There's only so much they can do to increase its capability without making the things it's already good at (kite-killing) too good. It is not however, "poor."

[Greatguardian]

Ignoring massive amounts of pDif/cRatio differences even when Haste is equal is nothing short of irresponsible anyways. SMN will never come close to being capped on Attack, and yes that is a big deal.

[Alhanelem]

There isn't a massive amount of difference. And if you want to play the buffing game, again, whatever supporting buffs anyone else receives from other people, I can too.

If you're talking about 999 attack, I've seen evidence that attack is not really capped at 999 and that the equipment display is simply locked to displaying a 3 digit number. And I'm quite certain I can reach 999.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: fucking pDIF how does it work

[Alhanelem]

The issue I take, and took, and that you ran headlong into on page 3 of this thread without bothering to read for comprehension everything that was being said, is simply Dallas claiming that SMN Emp Staff can do more total damage than a Ukonvasara WAR.I never claimed dallas was right on this, and I wasn't the one who made the comparison in the first place? So why aren't you attacking him instead of me? You keep quoting me and going at me over this, putting the burden on me to prove this and that, but I wasn't even the one trying originally to argue it!


ITT: fucking pDIF how does it work http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/PDIF

[Greatguardian]

I never claimed dallas was right on this, and I wasn't the one who made the comparison in the first place? So why aren't you attacking him instead of me?

I am.

I never said attack capped at 999. I said attack capped. cRatio caps. 2.2 for 2-handers. WAR doesn't need minuets to easily cap cRatio on a lot of things, assuming Berserk (fair enough since we're already assuming Smn/Sam and War/Sam are using Hasso which is native too). Since I pulled in bards, we may as well give the Smn Minuets in addition to marches just to be nice. Should we SV them too for fun? You're still looking at only 840~ attack if you assume 550 with RCB SMN/SAM.

No. That's not negligible.

Again, I'll say for the dozenth time, SMN hitting things is better than SMN not hitting things. SMN hitting things isn't total suck. But SMN hitting things cannot effectively compare its personal DD power to a "true" DD. It absolutely cannot. Be it WAR, or MNK, or NIN, or DRG. They will do more damage, and have a greater overall utility (aside from DRG).

Does that mean SMN is total ass? Meh. Depends on who you ask. It'll always be better than a total gimpcrap player. But comparing yourself to a gimpcrap player, or a DRK of any kind, is like kicking a toddler and bragging about winning the fight.

[Leonlionheart]

Again, I'll say for the dozenth time, SMN hitting things is better than SMN not hitting things.

Ehh... you could get into situations where TP feed is a problem but they aren't as common as what 75% of the population does anyway (Farm 85 Empyrean mats till their eyes fall out).

Assuming abyssea, and non-heroes content, SMN hitting stuff would be better than SMN not hitting stuff. Otherwise the only NMs it would be prudent to TP on would be like Orthrus, Respheph, or Bennu, and only if your WHM has a great bar-spell or the SMN is changing to Titan every so often for Earthen Armor.

[Alhanelem]

Assuming anything where "feeding TP" isn't an absolute death sentenceFixed that for you. Not just Abyssea or just a certain area of it, any place and situation where it is OK to have more than one melee on a mob.

[Greatguardian]

Ehh... you could get into situations where TP feed is a problem but they aren't as common as what 75% of the population does anyway (Farm 85 Empyrean mats till their eyes fall out).

Assuming abyssea, and non-heroes content, SMN hitting stuff would be better than SMN not hitting stuff. Otherwise the only NMs it would be prudent to TP on would be like Orthrus, Respheph, or Bennu, and only if your WHM has a great bar-spell or the SMN is changing to Titan every so often for Earthen Armor.

Oh I'm definitely assuming if the SMN's in a group, they're being treated the same as any other "DD" as far as cures and TP feed goes. Of course, that's a somewhat outlandish assumption if only because I don't think it ever happens in reality.

[Byrth]

ftr, the pDIF information/specifics on ffxiclopedia and gamersescape is 2-3 years old and at least partially wrong. Read the FFXIclopedia discussion page for more specifics.

Also, lol at the comments about soloing Ovni. I've soloed it on Dancer at 80 with Saber Dance / Haste Samba up the whole time, so I've no doubt that a Thief could do it. Yuna from FFXIAH did it on Dancer at 75. Sidenote though, BST gets TH3 with Dipper Yuly if they're lucky.

Fact of the matter is that Relic and Empyrean staves (and sometimes Mythic) suck for typical mage usage, which doesn't generate TP.

[Leonlionheart]

Well no native SB and a rather fast weapon, and no real SB gear either besides rajas doesn't help

[Greatguardian]

Well no native SB and a rather fast weapon, and no real SB gear either besides rajas doesn't help

True enough.

[Alhanelem]

which doesn't generate TP. BLM and SCH do get TP for nuking, though I agree not at a high enough rate for it to be worthwhile.


ftr, the pDIF information/specifics on ffxiclopedia and gamersescape is 2-3 years old and at least partially wrong. Read the FFXIclopedia discussion page for more specifics.I've looked over the talk page but it's kind of messy. I wouldn't mind some help updating the article if you understand it well enough to make the corrections.

(I put an outdated tag on the article- thanks for pointing that out)

[Byrth]

There's nothing to update. Masamune successfully proved the formulas wrong, but no one has combined his data into a new theory that fits everything and delivers some calculation insight. The best we've done is made fits of the average pDIF for crits and normal hits, and the formulas aren't so far off that it's really worth updating just for that.

[Alhanelem]

So the formula has changed but the new one still isn't fully understood then?

I realize for things like the damage formulas it's to be expected to some degree- but we shouldn't have to find math professors and statistics majors in our midst just to understand how important things in the game work. I mean, they know someone's going to figure stuff out eventually...

[Raksha]

So the formula has changed but the new one still isn't fully understood then?


He didn't say the formula changed, he said it was disproven (our model of it anyway).
Meaning this whole time we didn't know how it worked even though we thought we did.



I realize for things like the damage formulas it's to be expected to some degree- but we shouldn't have to find math professors and statistics majors in our midst just to understand how important things in the game work. I mean, they know someone's going to figure stuff out eventually...


Make a thread and ask SE nicely if they'll show you the damage formulas.

[Alhanelem]

Square Enix: We'll give you that info right after we drop PS2 support.

[HFX7686]

Well, with meds, and brew, anyone can solo Ovni

I'm talking about straight up solo, no meds, no brew, nothing but job abilities and kiting.

My husband got his Bullwhip Belt solo on MNK/NIN off Ovni. No brew, no kiting. He probably used a temp med or two but I don't think that would count against him. I solo'd it at 80 on RDM/NIN, which is about the easiest way anyone can kill Ovni. It's a super easy mob to kill regardless.

[Korpg]

Well, I guess I did it the hard way.

Considering that I have neither THF, BST, COR, or DNC at 90, I guess my method has to be the best I can do.

[Malamasala]

BLM get TP for nuking? You learn something every day. I do get way more than I can use on SCH though.

(To a great extent because I wear a club with 0 club skill. Something I for fun decided to keep at 0 for laughs)

[Alhanelem]

BLM got Occult Accumen in the last update, SCH and DRK had it from the update before. TP gain is based on the level of the trait, the MP cost of the spell and Store TP. BLM currently gets 1 level (TP=2.5% of MP cost). SCH gets 2 (5% of MP cost) and DRK gets 4 (10% of MP cost). In the end, all three jobs get similar amounts, though the DRK empyrean has one piece that enhances it by calculating the TP gain as if the MP cost were increased by some amount.

Occult Accumen I is subbable on DRK, so technically RDM can get the same trait as BLM (but doesn't have as expensive spells as BLM so doesn't get as much TP)

[Dallas]

The issue I take, and took, and that you ran headlong into on page 3 of this thread without bothering to read for comprehension everything that was being said, is simply Dallas claiming that SMN Emp Staff can do more total damage than a Ukonvasara WAR.

Speaking of reading comprehension, get some.


I don't have to deal more damage than a Ukon WAR, I just have to do more damage than an ice staff SMN.

Post less, read more.

[Greatguardian]

Oh hey. Safeface part 1, yes? You never replied to our original back-and-forth where I asked what spike damage you were referring to in this post here:


Seriously guys, go look at the DOT numbers on Hver 90 and Ukon 90. Hver is 7.5% under Ukon.

Hver 90:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hvergelmir_(90)

Ukon 90:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ukonvasara_(90)

This is a source of damage that most BLM/SCH/SMN don't touch with a 10-foot pole. No, you don't have the melee skills to make your staff "WAR awesome," but WAR don't use Tier V nukes, Hate-free avatar damage, or any of our numerous buffs/debuffs.

Yes, you will lose spike damage. You will do more total damage.

Myrkr is miles ahead of Spirit Taker, which can miss. SE did a great job designing a WS to surpass Spirit Taker. Not all emp weapons have WS that people want to use, so mages got the best deal.

Relic and Mythic are much weaker due to less popular WS, but they still surpass common weapons.

See, it sounds very much to me like you are saying "Hver does 7% less damage than Ukon in TP phase because I don't understand DPS, but we do more total damage because of BPs and T5 nukes"

So were you saying that you do less "spike damage" than ... I dunno ... a non-melee SMN? How are you doing less spike damage, exactly? You are still BP'ing every 45 seconds. I dare say you'd be doing more spike damage since you are not worrying about MP at all.

See, that sounds a lot like "Well, we don't have Ukko's Fury, but we'll do more total damage."

If that's not what you intended to say, what exactly did you mean by that post? Don't worry, I'm listening.

[Tamoa]

Didn't bother to read through the last 2 pages, but in regards of soloing Ovni, I have done that more than once as nin/dnc straight tanking it. No kiting (how the hell do you kite something that moves @ flee speed anyway) and certainly no pinning necessary. He's ridiculously easy.

[Dallas]

GG, these details are in other threads. I can repost them real fast:

Spike damage for SMN = BPs & various WS options

"Yes, you will lose spike damage."

Hvergelmir does NOT increase BPs, unlike several other staves including: B.Staff, Magian, Nirvana. Myrkr WS does 0 damage as well. In all aspects, Spike damage will go down with Hvergelmir.

"You will do more total damage."

In return for that LOST damage, you gain DoT from a powerful weapon, much more powerful than any other staff (exception: Claustrum). This weapon provides so much MP that the SMN can wear full haste gear, keep the avatar out indefinitely and use full pacts.

Again, SMN is not buffed like a WAR, but we aren't WAR. We have plenty of other benefits. For example, SMN doesn't need to use shadows. We'll only get hit with AOE damage and have multiple sources for AOE cures.

I don't *need* to outdamage a Ukon WAR, because a WAR can't switch roles in a pinch. I do need to play my SMN assuming that "in a pinch" is never needed. If everyone is doing their job well, SMN is left to DD.

My Hver SMN is not the bottom of the DD barrel. I kill rabbits in Vunk at least twice as fast as a non-emp NIN. I didn't actually count, but the NIN sure cried a lot. SMN may have the strongest "pure pearl light" build for Abyssea. It requires Myrkr, because the WS can't give ruby light. That counts as "utility" in my book.

[Alhanelem]

(how the hell do you kite something that moves @ flee speed anyway)Simple... you just have to run until you're well out of sight to resummon.

[Tamoa]

Simple... you just have to run until you're well out of sight to resummon.

You mean you run out of sight while your avatar is fighting so you can resummon when your avatar dies before Ovni catches up with you?

Anyways, I don't really summon much of anything as nin/dnc.

I made that post as a response to those that don't believe Ovni can be soloed by a non-pet job.

[Korpg]

You mean you run out of sight while your avatar is fighting so you can resummon when your avatar dies before Ovni catches up with you?

Anyways, I don't really summon much of anything as nin/dnc.

I made that post as a response to those that don't believe Ovni can be soloed by a non-pet job.

I didn't think it was possible, but I was proven wrong.

What I do is pull Ovni in the middle of the two big crevasse, but on one end of the runway, have an avatar (Shiva mostly, but I switch up the avatars when damage starts to become resistant to a certain element) BP about 3 times, run to the other side of the runway and release/resummon in between BP timers, so when it comes back, I automatically BP and let the avatar get hate again, then run away after 3 BPs.

Apparently, I did it the hard way. But it was still fun towards the end.

[Deadvinta]

I dunno. Scholar gets a pretty nice mythic...


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tupsimati_(85)

Combining this with Atma bonuses.

[Raksha]

I dunno. Scholar gets a pretty nice mythic...


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tupsimati_(85)

Combining this with Atma bonuses.

no no no no no no

no

[Sekundes]

DD jobs 'ultimate weapons' help them do what a DD is suppose to do, deal damage with an equipped weapon and SE has the right idea with those weapons.

I don't mind that the mage weapons have dd properties but it annoys me that most of them fail at bolstering the job's intended purpose. I find it a bit ridiculous that anyone tries to justify the majority of these weapons as anything but a failure. Melee mages will very rarely have a place in any real end game content and these weapons are simply toys for those who want to play around.

I'd really like to know the reasoning behind SE's move on making these weapons like this.

[Malamasala]

I'd really like to know the reasoning behind SE's move on making these weapons like this.

I'd dare say not a single one at SE plays mage jobs. (Possible BLM). I also suspect they do not listen at all to their testers. Because I doubt any testers would let half the content SE adds through quality check.

[Korpg]

I'd dare say not a single one at SE plays mage jobs. (Possible BLM). I also suspect they do not listen at all to their testers. Because I doubt any testers would let half the content SE adds through quality check.

Which is why they are having a testing server thats going to open soon.

Why pay for testers when you can have the playerbase do it for free

[Alhanelem]

I don't mind that the mage weapons have dd properties but it annoys me that most of them fail at bolstering the job's intended purpose.How do two weapons that both give you practically unlimited MP for your avatars on SMN fail at bolstering the job's "intended" purpose? And who are you to decide what a job is "intended" for? Many jobs today are doing things they weren't specifically built to do. Any job is "intended' to do whatever it is capable of doing. Going out of your way to find new ways of using a job is one of the things that makes playing fun.

[Korpg]

How do two weapons that both give you practically unlimited MP for your avatars on SMN fail at bolstering the job's "intended" purpose? And who are you to decide what a job is "intended" for? Many jobs today are doing things they weren't specifically built to do. Any job is "intended' to do whatever it is capable of doing. Going out of your way to find new ways of using a job is one of the things that makes playing fun.

Believe it or not, but some people think that damage only consists of Weapon Skills.

[Dallas]

Believe it or not, but some people think that damage only consists of Weapon Skills.

People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.

[Eeek]

Assuming I was rich in FFXI - I have Gil but not Uncle Scrooge Gil - I'd upgrade a Claustrum and idle in towns whenever possible. I'd stay logged in 24/7 and probably be AFK 20/7. I'd openly flaunt my big golden staff, silently taunting all the poor melees with FFXI's most magnificent waste of Dynamis currency.

Everyone would know I did it on a whim. For fun. They'll know aaaaaall that currency could have built a real weapon or properly geared up many of those full-Aurore-beggar-things that clog up Port Jeuno.

But no.

If I had 'f**k you' amounts of Gil, I'd be sure to properly accessorize myself with the one piece of equipment that says that exact thing.

I'd rock a Claustrum, and my Claustrum's mere existence would scream 'f**k off, plebe!'

[Korpg]

People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.

People who think they are the world's greatest gift are in this thread also. I just quoted one of them.

[Sekundes]

How do two weapons that both give you practically unlimited MP for your avatars on SMN fail at bolstering the job's "intended" purpose? And who are you to decide what a job is "intended" for? Many jobs today are doing things they weren't specifically built to do. Any job is "intended' to do whatever it is capable of doing. Going out of your way to find new ways of using a job is one of the things that makes playing fun.

I'm not limiting my statement to summoner. How you've decided to play summoner makes those specific weapons plenty nice for you. How you want to play the job and what your opinion of what is 'intended' is also your own to do with whatever you want. I'm just fine by innovation and taking a job that isn't suppose to do something and making it do it but making the 'best weapon in the game" a situational tool for only those who play the job in a flexible manner is questionable at best. They can feel free to keep those aspects if they want but it'd be nice to add something more practical for the jobs. You can't always melee so that benefit is lost on many things, particularly the ones that are most important.

I read the thread so I understand that you see value to these weapons but the majority of the people I've spoken to get little use outside of soloing for a huge amount of effort.

Perhaps it's just me but for my blu, I wear my Almace almost all the time. It is only the situational times that I ever take it off. I wish my mage jobs got something of similar utility and value... You aren't going to see people say: "Oh look a Hvergelmir smn! Lets get them!"

[Alhanelem]

I'm not limiting my statement to summoner. How you've decided to play summoner makes those specific weapons plenty nice for you.Almost no weapon is universally useful for every job that can equip it. As long as it's useful to someone, that's all that matters.


You aren't going to see people say: "Oh look a Hvergelmir smn! Lets get them!" I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

[Sekundes]

Almost no weapon is universally useful for every job that can equip it. As long as it's useful to someone, that's all that matters.

I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

I never said it had to be universal but it's just funny that for most any dd it's always going to be a full time or near full time gear and yet mages only get a couple uses if that. And just being useful to anyone does not warrant a spot as an empy much less a relic or mythic. These weapons should be top tier and at the very least formidable for multiple purposes of a job.

If you have something else to go off such as past experience with the player or someone knows them then sure but if you're doing some random event or shout group and you have the option of inviting a blu with an almace or a blu with dual mp sticks is that not going to tip the decision? I'm not saying they are going to see some job and go oh hey let's recruit that person to our ls, simply that given someone has good equipment that will certainly tip the scales. An empy doesn't make a person good but anyone who is serious about a job will have it decently geared. So what exactly do you go off of?

[Byrth]

I don't see anyone say "oh look a <insert empyrean weapon here> <insert job here>! let's get them! It doesn't automatically mean that's a good person to have, no matter which weapon it is.

If you're going to invite someone or not on the basis of if they have an empy weapon or not, then you're stupid.

It's really hard to suck in Abyssea with Ukko's Fury and aftermath. I'm sure some people still manage it, but if they have Ukon then they should at least be a pretty safe bet.

It's easy to suck on Summoner even with Empyrean, but the Empyrean is such a marginal upgrade that getting it shows dedication to the job. Unfortunately, a lot of people are very dedicated to jobs they're horrible at. For instance, every example I know of where someone has completed Claustrum.

[Razushu]

People who think that damage only consists of Blood Pact: Rage are in this thread.
People who think that laughable melee is the best and only way to contribute to a group are in this thread.

[Alderin]

SMN has B skill which is plenty good enough, it's second only to PLD and tied with MNK. I have full strength merits, full staff merits, appropriate gear, etc. I can assure you that coupled with garuda using hastega and predator claws, it is damage that keeps up with anyone else. The only real problem with staff is the WS- If you calculate the base DPS (ratio of damage to delay converted to seconds) the relic/mythic/empyrean staves are right up there with all the other ones. They are not inferior weapons, it is just difficult for the average person to make use of them. That is fine though- They're not for the average person, they're for dedicated specialists who think outside the box.

No tp loss on weapon switching would be nice and allow BLM and SMN to actually make use of Occult Acumen; but this would probably be overpowered for other jobs. Occult accumen + Adloquium makes hverglmir sort of interesting for SCH to use with a maximum magic damage atma set instead of including an atma with refresh. It's not really better or worse than any other method, but it can be fun and different.

Thats because WHM's main weapon is club, not staff. And Yagrush (sp?) is awesome and the most commonly obtained mythic in the game.

Ok so I have read into your posts.. Your playstyle is unique, and I welcome that. (so not meaning to troll if this sounds like I am about to) >

Parse any of my melee jobs (use all the ws's you like - I won't even ws for you) vs. your staff (buffing yourself as much as you like) and compare the damage. Even add garuda's predator claws in.. I can guarentee you, any equally-geared / skilled melee job as your smn & garuda combo - the melee will still out-parse you.

Mages weren't designed for melee damage, and although your playstyle is unique and semi-unheard of these days (and as I say I welcome it) - I very much doubt you would out-damage a melee job.

[Alhanelem]

Mages weren't designed for melee damage, and although your playstyle is unique and semi-unheard of these days (and as I say I welcome it) - I very much doubt you would out-damage a melee job. That's not the goal. The goal is simply to broaden our capabilities, not win an e-peen contest. That being said, after putting the requisite effort into it, it works quite well and allows the SMN to kill things more quickly when they are not in danger.

[Malamasala]

Parse any of my melee jobs (use all the ws's you like - I won't even ws for you) vs. your staff (buffing yourself as much as you like) and compare the damage. Even add garuda's predator claws in.. I can guarentee you, any equally-geared / skilled melee job as your smn & garuda combo - the melee will still out-parse you.

If the SMN is smart, he'll claim a naked contest and while the melee is equally equipped (naked) you just parse the hell out of them. Though the claim "equally geared" is pretty rough since to match a SMNs gear choices, a melee would have to wear level 20 armors. I'm assuming you just mean "If a SMN has the best -perpetuation armor, and the melee the best STR, acc, attack, haste armor, the melee will win" which is just duh!

[Korpg]

That's not the goal. The goal is simply to broaden our capabilities, not win an e-peen contest. That being said, after putting the requisite effort into it, it works quite well and allows the SMN to kill things more quickly when they are not in danger.

Now if only Dallas could realize that.

My only beef with Emp Staff was (emphasis on the was) lack of perp gear to keep avatars out.

Alhanelem made me realize that with that WS, you can keep your avatars out indefinably and you can keep BPs and everything going. I know that Dallas kindof said the same thing, but in a more arrogant than not.

Emp Staff is great in party settings. Can do decent damage and as long as you are able to survive, can outparse gimp DDs. Solo playstyle, I don't think that it would work at all.

I'm glad that Alhanelem got his staff. Good for him!

[Alhanelem]

I really should point out that even without meleeing, a perp staff is really not that important these days, once you have the full empyrean set. There is enough perp and refresh out there that you now have choices of where to get your perp cost down, or your MP up. If you're BP-releasing, using favor, or keeping pets up only for a short time, you don't have to have every bit of perp gear to manage your MP well.

SMN used to have very few gear choices to make at all. Now, there's a lot more to choose from and a lot more methods of playing available. SMN's gear situation has never been better- it just needs some tweaking and adjustments to better compete with other jobs in general situations.

[Korpg]

I really should point out that even without meleeing, a perp staff is really not that important these days, once you have the full empyrean set. There is enough perp and refresh out there that you now have choices of where to get your perp cost down, or your MP up. If you're BP-releasing, using favor, or keeping pets up only for a short time, you don't have to have every bit of perp gear to manage your MP well.

SMN used to have very few gear choices to make at all. Now, there's a lot more to choose from and a lot more methods of playing available. SMN's gear situation has never been better- it just needs some tweaking and adjustments to better compete with other jobs in general situations.

Well, with a full emp +2 gear, with either a fay staff (with -3 perp) or Bahamut's Staff and Evoker's Ring, you can have +1 perp cost (meaning you have +1 mp per tick when avatars are out for those of you guys who don't know) on all avatars outside of day/weather bonuses that gloves give (-1 perp on Caller's Pendant too). That is the best any SMN can get actually. With -2 perp more, can get as much as +3 "Refresh" from gear/traits and that would be the absolute best. Thats just for avatar though, doesn't really affect the player at all except mp usage.

What SE can do that would make us very close (or closer) to actual DDs now would be to reduce BP timers to 30 seconds (either making it so you can't do more than 2 BPs per minute like we are doing, but giving us the choice in WHICH two BPs we want to do, or making it a flat rate of 30 seconds per BPs) and that would give us a shot at being actual DDs. It would make it possible to compete with WARs and NINs now. That is our biggest issue right this minute.

[Raksha]

Well, with a full emp +2 gear, with either a fay staff (with -3 perp) or Bahamut's Staff and Evoker's Ring, you can have +1 perp cost (meaning you have +1 mp per tick when avatars are out for those of you guys who don't know) on all avatars outside of day/weather bonuses that gloves give (-1 perp on Caller's Pendant too). That is the best any SMN can get actually. With -2 perp more, can get as much as +3 "Refresh" from gear/traits and that would be the absolute best. Thats just for avatar though, doesn't really affect the player at all except mp usage.

What SE can do that would make us very close (or closer) to actual DDs now would be to reduce BP timers to 30 seconds (either making it so you can't do more than 2 BPs per minute like we are doing, but giving us the choice in WHICH two BPs we want to do, or making it a flat rate of 30 seconds per BPs) and that would give us a shot at being actual DDs. It would make it possible to compete with WARs and NINs now. That is our biggest issue right this minute.

I'm pretty sure avatar perpetuation doesnt go below 1. If you're getting 1mp/tic its probably just from your auto refresh II trait (1 to cancel out that last point of perpetuation, and another to give you the 1mp/tic)

[Korpg]

I'm pretty sure avatar perpetuation doesnt go below 1. If you're getting 1mp/tic its probably just from your auto refresh II trait (1 to cancel out that last point of perpetuation, and another to give you the 1mp/tic)

You forgot to include the +2 refresh from Caller's Horn +2....

[Raksha]

You forgot to include the +2 refresh from Caller's Horn +2....

Yeah i wasn't considering refresh from gear, since it sounded like you were getting 'refresh' from just -perpetuation.

EDIT: yeah sorry must've glossed over the 'full emp +2' part.

My bad.

[Alhanelem]

If you are using physical blood pacts and need to save more MP to get your full refresh potential, you can easily use avatar's favor just for the perp - and it has a minimal effect on physical BPs. The effect on magic BPs is much more significant, on the other hand...

[Dallas]

LOL @ perp staves with full +2 gear. "It's a pretty blue box, so I have to wear it!" Avatars are free without any weapon, if you know how to identify macro gear.

Congratulations, your 20mp/minute will match the MP recovery of a single 300% Myrkr in approximately a hour. Utility!

[Alhanelem]

You know, if you trimmed the attitude off your posts, people might take you a little more seriously...

[Dallas]

The particular person bragging about 1mp refresh outside of Abyssea deserves what he gets, and I'm more than happy to give. I am a generous leader.

[Razushu]

LOL @ perp staves with full +2 gear. "It's a pretty blue box, so I have to wear it!" Avatars are free without any weapon, if you know how to identify macro gear.

Congratulations, your 20mp/minute will match the MP recovery of a single 300% Myrkr in approximately a hour. Utility!
Are you serious? Really I'm starting to think your just a troll. wearing a perp/refresh set is A LITTLE more effienct than 20mp a minute if you wear enough - perp to just negate it your saving 12 mp per tick which is 240MP per minute but seeing as how alot of people have more than enough - perp now chances are there'll be refresh in there too. For myself, and I'm still working on this I get 2 per tick back on Garuda which is 40mp per minute which means thats 280MP a minute I save. Currently trying for Caller's Horn +2 Moonshade earring and Oneiros Grip Which will mean I'll get 5 per tick back on garuda saving a potential 340mp per minute which is "slightly" more than 20mp per minute you seem to think.

By all means melee to maintain avatars but don't skew the numbers in it's favor to make yourself seem right. I wouldn't party with a melee SMN just like I would avoid a melee SCH, BLM etc. but to each thier own, if you like this style and have people in your group willing to let you why not. But don't pretend melee does nothing but add to SMN, sure it adds a little damage but removes alot of our flexiblility and increases danger to the SMN. It can maintain an avatar indefinitely but so will a good perp/refresh set.

[Razushu]

The particular person bragging about 1mp refresh outside of Abyssea deserves what he gets, and I'm more than happy to give. I am a generous leader.
LOL at leader

[Duelle]

SE could actually learn from WoW on this one.

For example Blizzard is making a new Legendary staff for casters in their upcoming patch, the weapon is by far the best for any caster and there is a long quest and farming raids to get it, but in the end they have the best weapon they can get for the current patch and will let them do the most damage with their spells.

So why can't BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM get actual empyeran staffs and club that actually let them perform the best at what they do best which is casting spells?The new caster legendary is simply following the example of Atiesh (though there were four versions of Atiesh, one for each caster class).

That being said, I agree that the empy's should eclipse the elemental and potency staves bar none. Part of me thinks they want to support meleeing for whatever reason, though.

[Alhanelem]

I wouldn't party with a melee SMN just like I would avoid a melee SCH, BLM etc. but to each thier ownI hope you wouldn't party with any summoner at all then, because being a melee SMN doesn't prevent you from using your support abilities (in fact, it encourages it), and allows you to do more damage than you could otherwise- BP and release is terrible, spamming crappy cures when other jobs can do better is terrible. Unless you are putting yourself or someone else in serious jepoardy, this setup benefits everyone. SMN is useful to have. The melee strategy expands on its capabilities, allowing it to do more unless the situation prohibits it. And those situations do exist- I'm not about to tell you you can do it on everything. But where it can be done, it works very well. So be a little more open minded.

A SMN meleeing is totally different from a SCH meleeing. SCH has no pet doing damage with it, has to stop attacking to cast spells with lengthy cast times, and has the worst skill in its highest weapon of any job. A SCH also has the most powerful DoT spells in the game- it doesn't need to add more to its DoT.

What Zumi fails to mention about WoW is that many wands and staves in WoW deal respectable, ranged elemental (not physical) damage. It's usually not the best thing you can do, but you can often obtain wands that inflict a different damage type than you are usually capable of.

BOTTOM LINE: Open your bleepin' minds, think outside the box, and realize your potential, no matter what you're playing!

[Khiinroye]

crappy cures

Someone is too preoccupied with LOOKING OUTSIDE THE BOX to look back in it and see what you're capable of.

[Alhanelem]

Capable of tossing crappy cures to support someone tossing real ones. Yeah, I know we're capable of that. But so isn't anyone else who subs WHM. It helps, mind you, but it shouldn't be seen as a defining part of the job, since it's not actually part of the job. This is a PROBLEM, not a good thing that should be encouraged. If a cure needs giving, I'm more than happy to give it. I'm just not going to go in there with it being my primary role, because other people, whom you almost always have with you, will do it better. If there's no other choice, it works in a pinch, but having cures from WHM sub is hardly SMN's greatest strength.

So no, i'm not too busy "looking outside the box" to know what it is capable of inside of it. Someone instead is too busy ignoring the outside of the box to realize the box has an outside.

[Azagthoth]

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

[Leonlionheart]

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

I count 49%
22 Surayas
14 facio
5 roundel
3 fylga+1
5 serpentes set

Roundel alone is nearing 10mil with the decline of all Campaign.

[Alhanelem]

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.
great. So I can cure 5xx HP instead of <400 with cure IV, where it still takes like 6 cures to bring a dying MNK back to full health in abyssea. Or I could go scholar and cure IV for more than that with strategems, or I could use WHM and cure way more than that even without cure potency gear. And don't you dare bring max MP into this. With Minikin, anyone can cure forever in abyssea.

For the same reason you can argue against the melee strategy, I can argue against the curing strategy- Just because gear exists, that doesn't mean you should or have to do it.

There are many possibilities for summoner. Curing is one, even though I don't agree with it on a personal level because the curing comes basically entirely from the subjob and not native abilities. What other job in the game plays their subjob more than the main they have the subjob on? I can't discount that it can be put to good use, I just consider it far from the most ideal use. Melee DDing is another. Pet kiting is another. Support buffing is another. SMN can do many things, and you should not attack or rule out any one of them.

[Bumbeen]

Roundel alone is nearing 10mil with the decline of all Campaign.

Sold mine recently as I expect the price to drop as more jobs are able to solo the fight.

[Leonlionheart]

Sold mine recently as I expect the price to drop as more jobs are able to solo the fight.

Not really about soloing the fight, but rather the fight's access. No one seems to EVER do Campaign, other than the rare need for a rose strap, and that's sandy.

You can't even enter the fight on Asura, and that's why the price is going up. That and you need it to cap cure potency while using +2 body on WHM, for optimal curing output.

[Azagthoth]

Augmented Zenith Pumps + Augur's Gloves.

Inside Abyssea: There are quite a number of mobs you can kill with just /WHM healing support. For mobs that you need a white mage to Cure you're not going to bring a melee SMN + WHM -- you're going to bring a MNK, WAR, NIN, etc, and a WHM + procs.

Outisde Abyssea: Cure IV will be more helpful. On higher level NMs you'll need to be more careful about feeding them TP, because you'll have normal HP and even the tanks won't have the AGI TP reduction they were getting in Abyssea.

Summoner is decent for meleeing garbage mobs. End of discussion.

[Korpg]

LOL @ perp staves with full +2 gear. "It's a pretty blue box, so I have to wear it!" Avatars are free without any weapon, if you know how to identify macro gear.

Congratulations, your 20mp/minute will match the MP recovery of a single 300% Myrkr in approximately a hour. Utility!

How long would it take for you to get enough TP to do a decent Myrkr? Oh yeah, your mp wouldn't last long enough to keep that avatar out while you are wiffing at EP mobs with your pathetic DD skill. While we are at it, not only will you lose all your mp before you get your 300% TP, but once the avatar leaves you, all of the sudden the you will die (if you aren't already dead beforehand that is) because there is nothing keeping the mob off of you.

But then again, you will probably spout some nonsense like "But I always get in a group of people who like me for who I am, even though I'm a complete jerk to them all 100% of the time" or something to that effect.


The particular person bragging about 1mp refresh outside of Abyssea deserves what he gets, and I'm more than happy to give. I am a generous leader.

Better to have 1 mp per tick back (4 with refresh on, 11 in abyssea) and can keep avatars out forever with no risk to me than to have a cost of 14 mp per tick to keep an avatar out and have to risk getting killed just to try to get mp to sustain the avatar, much less using blood pacts. But only in abyssea. Outside of abyssea you got no chance at all. Neither can you solo anything at all.

At least Al doesn't limit himself to one type of Summoner.

[hiko]

I count 49%
22 Surayas
14 facio
5 roundel
3 fylga+1
5 serpentes set

Roundel alone is nearing 10mil with the decline of all Campaign.

ASA legs with 5 cure potency augment

[Raksha]

ASA legs with 5 cure potency augment

MKD hat with 3% also

[Malamasala]

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

I bet PLD can cap cure potency. But for some reason people don't invite them to main heal. I really think PLDs should get to live through 4 or so years as main healers. I'm always looking for a chance to let other jobs experience the hell of SMN.

[Azagthoth]

I knew I was missing something. I always forget about the mini-expansion gear until later. You can come very close to capping cure potency on RDM, BLM, etc, but for SMN it's a walk in the park now.

[Alhanelem]

That still doesn't make SMN a better healer.

Just because a job CAN heal, doesn't mean it should be treated as a healer.
BLU can heal but you don't see anyone fulltime healing with it...

I absolutely don't mind doing it when necessary. I DO mind being treated like it's the only thing SMN can do, however.

[Duelle]

I bet PLD can cap cure potency. But for some reason people don't invite them to main heal. I really think PLDs should get to live through 4 or so years as main healers. I'm always looking for a chance to let other jobs experience the hell of SMN.Anyone who's played WoW knows what happens when you grab the knight in shining armor archetype and force it into main healing because it is otherwise useless to a group. Granted, WoW paladins can cleanse status ailments without batting an eye, whereas FF paladins are pretty damn weak in the magic department.

[Greatguardian]

PLD cannot cap Cure potency. SMN is slightly behind SCH as the second best healer behind WHM. SMN is a better healer than RDM. Just saying.

Themoreyouknow.jpg

[Alhanelem]

SMN is more than slightly behind SCH, as SCH effectively has a divine seal every 48 seconds if you're fulltime healing. (it also stacks with actual divine seal, unlike the magic accuracy strategem which does NOT stack with elemental seal...)

[Byrth]

I'd say RDM's Fast Cast and Refresh II make it a better healer than Summoner, but to each his own!

Anything other than WHM is pretty shitty in Abyssea.

[Raksha]

BLU can heal but you don't see anyone fulltime healing with it...



Maybe they should think outside of the box.


I bet PLD can cap cure potency.

Not according to ffxiah advanced search.

[Leonlionheart]

PLD cannot cap Cure potency. SMN is slightly behind SCH as the second best healer behind WHM. SMN is a better healer than RDM. Just saying.

Themoreyouknow.jpg

Woah, no way. BLU cures can reach 1k with a sch in the party BLU totally beats everyone but WHM at healing.

[Greatguardian]

Woah, no way. BLU cures can reach 1k with a sch in the party BLU totally beats everyone but WHM at healing.

What's a BLU?

[Dallas]

I love that the gold standard for SMN healing is cure potency capped and Cure 4, which requires /WHM. What's the fast cast on this loser of a setup?

[Alhanelem]

I don't know, but both RDM and SCH can easily beat a SMN in curing speed. And they don't need a subjob to give them their cures.

[Dallas]

It's interesting that anyone would bother wearing cure potency as SMN. Did they just macro swap OUT their -perp gear? Not only do they have the slowest Cure 4 in existence, they paid 10-20 MP more for their avatar to cast Cure 4. That's not something I'd brag about either.

[Azagthoth]

Don't worry, you'll be able to cast Cure IV with RDM sub at level 96 for all of your curing needs.

[Razushu]

I hope you wouldn't party with any summoner at all then, because being a melee SMN doesn't prevent you from using your support abilities (in fact, it encourages it), and allows you to do more damage than you could otherwise- BP and release is terrible, spamming crappy cures when other jobs can do better is terrible. Unless you are putting yourself or someone else in serious jepoardy, this setup benefits everyone. SMN is useful to have. The melee strategy expands on its capabilities, allowing it to do more unless the situation prohibits it. And those situations do exist- I'm not about to tell you you can do it on everything. But where it can be done, it works very well. So be a little more open minded.

A SMN meleeing is totally different from a SCH meleeing. SCH has no pet doing damage with it, has to stop attacking to cast spells with lengthy cast times, and has the worst skill in its highest weapon of any job. A SCH also has the most powerful DoT spells in the game- it doesn't need to add more to its DoT.

What Zumi fails to mention about WoW is that many wands and staves in WoW deal respectable, ranged elemental (not physical) damage. It's usually not the best thing you can do, but you can often obtain wands that inflict a different damage type than you are usually capable of.

BOTTOM LINE: Open your bleepin' minds, think outside the box, and realize your potential, no matter what you're playing!

I like you you argue logically. I've always seen the opposite meleeing on a job that has support functions means you still have to pick. I watched a RDM/NIN meleeing in a party on full MP let my SAM brother 3 because he refused to help heals because "he was there to melee". there's really no room for my style of SMN and melee SMN at the same time I'm too busy lol just as SMN melee would keep you. I get 20 secs free time a minute which I'll use on anything that seems useful throwing out a regen or cure, remove a debuff etc. when you add in the fact I nigh constantly switch staffs TP becomes and issue. I've said it before if you like melee go for it it CAN add to a party, I just feel support SMN is more bebeficial and safer lol. I do think outside the box. I played my SMN as a great main heal at 75 my avatars were an integral part of my role here(so I wasn't jsut a gimp whm) not because I was forced to but because my friends were trying to PT and there was no healer's available, but then I also started leveling WHM after this for next time.

Pet Damage is independant from SMN melee though and SCH got some nice toys for melee/nuking since 75. WE don't need to add more to our DoT either we add enough to a party without it. for everyone who waants to melee go for it theres lots of cases where an job is play counter to it's design and it can work, but try not to be like certain players and ignore SMNs's designed function and what it can excell at.

[Korpg]

I like you you argue logically. I've always seen the opposite meleeing on a job that has support functions means you still have to pick. I watched a RDM/NIN meleeing in a party on full MP let my SAM brother 3 because he refused to help heals because "he was there to melee". there's really no room for my style of SMN and melee SMN at the same time I'm too busy lol just as SMN melee would keep you. I get 20 secs free time a minute which I'll use on anything that seems useful throwing out a regen or cure, remove a debuff etc. when you add in the fact I nigh constantly switch staffs TP becomes and issue. I've said it before if you like melee go for it it CAN add to a party, I just feel support SMN is more bebeficial and safer lol. I do think outside the box. I played my SMN as a great main heal at 75 my avatars were an integral part of my role here(so I wasn't jsut a gimp whm) not because I was forced to but because my friends were trying to PT and there was no healer's available, but then I also started leveling WHM after this for next time.

Pet Damage is independant from SMN melee though and SCH got some nice toys for melee/nuking since 75. WE don't need to add more to our DoT either we add enough to a party without it. for everyone who waants to melee go for it theres lots of cases where an job is play counter to it's design and it can work, but try not to be like certain players and ignore SMNs's designed function and what it can excell at.

Don't worry, I'm with you on your argument, but I have melee'd a couple of times when I'm soloing as SMN in Abyssea, only to get blue procs and then gtfo. But I was able to keep the damage up from blood pacts constantly. Did that lower my TP gain rate? Yes. And I switch staves for BPs also, so I had to keep my BP staff in satchel while I was meleeing.

But Al's method of keeping avatars out isn't unrealistic, its plausible, abet more dangerous for him to do. And there are still some NMs I wouldn't melee at all, even if I wanted blue. His method only works for group settings, and most people don't like seeing a SMN melee at all.

[Sparthos]

What's a BLU?

One of the top tier jobs in Abyssea.

[Dallas]

there's really no room for my style of SMN and melee SMN at the same time I'm too busy
Don't bother until you level your staff and get something better than Fay Crozier. You don't need to go around embarassing yourself in front of people that know you.

[Alhanelem]

But Al's method of keeping avatars out isn't unrealistic, its plausible, abet more dangerous for him to do. And there are still some NMs I wouldn't melee at all, even if I wanted blue. His method only works for group settings, and most people don't like seeing a SMN melee at all. It can work fine on soloable NMs, though you'll have to sacrifice some damage in one, possibly two atmas for the avatar to stay alive whilst tanking. Otherwise, the DD atmas still work well even without meleeing to produce a stronger predator claws for pet kiting.

[Razushu]

Don't bother until you level your staff and get something better than Fay Crozier. You don't need to go around embarassing yourself in front of people that know you.
lol I have something better than a fay crozier, a Vayu's Staff +2 and a Varuna's staff(working on finishing it). But you probably wouldn't know about these because they enhance the main part of SMN. I told you about my damage with a fay Crozier on full Swing with gimp skill(245) to highlight the fact that in Abyssea anything can get high numbers in melee, which doesn't really help your argument because ANYTHING can do big melee and do it safer and more effiecent than SMN. So like I've been saying melee if you like but please don't try to tell me how great it is, it's still the weakest in the game has applications on some things in Abyssea but undoubtedly it will fall behind outside it.

[Alhanelem]

But you probably wouldn't know about these because they enhance the main part of SMN.Who are you to decide what the "main" part of SMN is?

There is no "main" part of SMN. it's a flexible job that can do a wide range of things. There is a time and a place for everything.

[Razushu]

Who are you to decide what the "main" part of SMN is?

There is no "main" part of SMN. it's a flexible job that can do a wide range of things. There is a time and a place for everything.

I didn't SE did. I already said melee has niche applications but it's by no means a main part of SMN. The avatars are the main part of SMN our flexiblity is from them and their pacts wards/rages, the fact that every trait and ability we get is geared around our avatars is very telling. Again I'm not saying don't melee if you find it fun and can do it safely and the party doesn't mind go for it. There's lots of jobs that can be geared to melee but it's not part of their main role. In order to DD we lose alot of the flexibility our job excels at.

[Alhanelem]

I didn't SE did.SE didn't decide that either. Otherwise, the job wouldn't have had attacks, buffs, heals, pet mechanics, decent skill in a weapon, MP, debuffs, etc.

There is no one tool that enhances all of those things, but there are tools for all of them. Through magian trials we have:

Staves for perp cost
Staves for magic attack, or pet magic attack
Staves for attack, or pet attack
Staves for melee damage, multi-attacking, weapon skills, etc
Staves for cure potency
Staves for several other attributes.

It's by far the most diverse of the magian trial categories, and SMN can arguably make good use of more of them than any other staff-weilding job. Honestly, the more of these you have, the more powerful you are in general.

(By the way, because of the differences with how avatar damage is calculated, swapping into a phyiscal attack weapon for a blood pact offers a trivial increase- When following a melee set up, this trivial difference is easily ignoreable as your melee DoT will far outstrip any gain from avatar physical attack, which also only works on blood pacts, by the way, except possibly from atma sources. If not meleeing, the difference is so small that enhancing this should be a low priority- Your time is better invested in avatar magic attack enhancements, since these have a more significant effect on the relevant blood pacts)

[Razushu]

SE didn't decide that either. Otherwise, the job wouldn't have had attacks, buffs, heals, pet mechanics, decent skill in a weapon, MP, debuffs, etc.

There is no one tool that enhances all of those things, but there are tools for all of them. Through magian trials we have:

Staves for perp cost
Staves for magic attack, or pet magic attack
Staves for attack, or pet attack
Staves for melee damage, multi-attacking, weapon skills, etc
Staves for cure potency
Staves for several other attributes.

It's by far the most diverse of the magian trial categories, and SMN can arguably make good use of more of them than any other staff-weilding job. Honestly, the more of these you have, the more powerful you are in general.

(By the way, because of the differences with how avatar damage is calculated, swapping into a phyiscal attack weapon for a blood pact offers a trivial increase- When following a melee set up, this trivial difference is easily ignoreable as your melee DoT will far outstrip any gain from avatar physical attack, which also only works on blood pacts, by the way, except possibly from atma sources. If not meleeing, the difference is so small that enhancing this should be a low priority- Your time is better invested in avatar magic attack enhancements, since these have a more significant effect on the relevant blood pacts)

SE did make the choice all those things come from the pet, except the B in staff. Which was my point SE made the job incredibly versatile but pet reliant. Every job gets at least a C+ in one weapon, it's just the way it is it isn't indicative of anything. Any staff using class can make as much use if not better than SMN in all these categories - perp cost of course. Any job can be geared to melee SMN is no exception, I've known this for a while I learned it to tease a RDM friend of my about melee when he'd try to tell me about how RDMs should be getting invites as heavy DDs.

Any backline job can be geared to melee but they'll always be weaker than the real frontline jobs I still wouldn't pick up a SMN/SAM for a group anymore than I would pick up a SCH/NIN(or SAM) or a WHM/NIN. The reasoning being if I'm inviting something to melee it'll be a melee just like i wouldn't invite a PLD/SCH that wanted to main heal. If people like to melee on a non melee job they can if they have the friends to let them.

[Leonlionheart]

PLD gets A- staff. They should use it all the time.
MNK gets B, same as SMN.
WAR gets B, same as SMN.

There are still huge Attack and Accuracy differences between A+ and B, 34 skill worth, which is pretty big, specially since SMN doesn't get any real good accuracy from gear.

[Korpg]

PLD gets A- staff. They should use it all the time.
MNK gets B, same as SMN.
WAR gets B, same as SMN.

There are still huge Attack and Accuracy differences between A+ and B, 34 skill worth, which is pretty big, specially since SMN doesn't get any real good accuracy from gear.

Bolded part is why a melee SMN (without an avatar) will never be better than a real DD job.

[Leonlionheart]

Bolded part is why a melee SMN (without an avatar) will never be better than a real DD job.

Well I'm sure SMN could cap with food, rings, etc, but then you lose xhit (rajas) and red curry buns that real DDs would be using.

I think some people forget the times where Accuracy was king, and for the jobs that don't have high skill it's still a pretty big issue, even in Abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

Attack is a pretty huge deal, too. Something SMN does not really have in large (any) quantities.

[Dallas]

lol I have something better than a fay crozier, a Vayu's Staff +2 and a Varuna's staff(working on finishing it). But you probably wouldn't know about these because they enhance the main part of SMN.

I don't know about it because all of my avatars are free, all the time, with a DD staff. That -10 BP timer? I have capped -BP timer in macro armor as well.

There is only one more stat on those staves, and that stat is "weak as hell." Yeah, I have a gimp +1 in my moghouse, that's where my "retired and worthless" gear goes.

You wear it for the sexy "I have a mailbox strapped to my back" look, I can tell. You sure don't use it because it makes your SMN leet.

[Korpg]

Well I'm sure SMN could cap with food, rings, etc, but then you lose xhit (rajas) and red curry buns that real DDs would be using.

I think some people forget the times where Accuracy was king, and for the jobs that don't have high skill it's still a pretty big issue, even in Abyssea.

Problem is outside of Abyssea also. Those who have to melee as SMN just to keep MP up will find that their damage output will lower a lot more than they would like, not just because there is no longer +100 DEX helping them make hits. But because more mobs outside of Abyssea are more evasive for their levels and have stronger AoE moves than what the SMN's HP can handle.

[Korpg]

I don't know about it because all of my avatars are free, all the time, with a DD staff. That -10 BP timer? I have capped -BP timer in macro armor as well.

There is only one more stat on those staves, and that stat is "weak as hell." Yeah, I have a gimp +1 in my moghouse, that's where my "retired and worthless" gear goes.

You wear it for the sexy "I have a mailbox strapped to my back" look, I can tell. You sure don't use it because it makes your SMN leet.

How are your avatars free all the time when it costs you 15 mp per tick to keep them out?

For avatars to be free all the time, it means that by doing nothing, the avatar costs you nothing. Even a noob SMN would understand that, I don't know how you would think otherwise.

Again, for something to be free, it has to not cost you anything to have.

[Razushu]

I don't know about it because all of my avatars are free, all the time, with a DD staff. That -10 BP timer? I have capped -BP timer in macro armor as well.

There is only one more stat on those staves, and that stat is "weak as hell." Yeah, I have a gimp +1 in my moghouse, that's where my "retired and worthless" gear goes.

You wear it for the sexy "I have a mailbox strapped to my back" look, I can tell. You sure don't use it because it makes your SMN leet.

Your avatars aren't free you have to constantly take action to replenish lost MP thats not free.

-EDIT- beaten to the punch

[Dallas]

Well I'm sure SMN could cap with food, rings, etc, but then you lose xhit (rajas) and red curry buns that real DDs would be using.

Since the best WS is Myrkr:
1) which does 0 damage
2) always works, regardless of range or direction
3) has 0 loss in effectiveness over 100% TP
4) has aftermath that improves to a max at 300% TP.

The only way to play with Myrkr is to use it at 300%... every... single... time. x-hit builds? Not a priority. ALL damage will be through DOT and avatars. Maximize attack, haste, and accuracy. Accuracy doesn't suck as much as everyone thinks (I never use sushi). Haste gear = 23%. That leaves attack, which is a good use of food.

[Alhanelem]

Every job gets at least a C+ in one weapon, it's just the way it is it isn't indicative of anything. Unless I'm mistaken, every job has at least a B- in some weapon, except SCH.

Your avatars aren't free you have to constantly take action to replenish lost MP thats not free.
For avatars to be free all the time, it means that by doing nothing, the avatar costs you nothing. No, it means that over time, the net loss from having your avatar out is zero. having no perp and burning 500 MP in perp and getting it all back and more is not really different in the end. Also, you do not need every piece of perp and refresh in the book to offset avatar costs anymore. There is more of that available than anyone will ever need, even without the weapon slot. If you're really desperate, you can activate avatar's favor, which has a negligible effect on physical blood pacts and melee DoT.

There is no difference between having your perp cost offset by gear and losing MP but getting it back. As long as you don't run out of MP either way, you're fine.

Myrkr can give you back over 1000 MP easily whenever you need it. You don't need max perp -.

Even if Myrkr wasn't an MP restoring WS, you do not need a weapon to completely offset perpetuation cost. You can easily bring perp cost to the minimum without the weapon slot. Thus, a perp- weapon is not needed, even for a traditional summoner.

Read this a few times. If you don't get anything else out of it, get this: MP is not a problem for a melee summoner any more than it will ever be for any other summoner strategy.

[Razushu]

Unless I'm mistaken, every job has at least a B- in some weapon, except SCH.

So we're agreed every job has at least a C+ in atleast one weapon, seeing as atleast C+ means the same >= C+


No, it means that over time, the net loss from having your avatar out is zero. having no perp and burning 500 MP in perp and getting it all back and more is not really different in the end. Also, you do not need every piece of perp and refresh in the book to offset avatar costs anymore. There is more of that available than anyone will ever need, even without the weapon slot. If you're really desperate, you can activate avatar's favor, which has a negligible effect on physical blood pacts and melee DoT.

Having something free and recouping the cost later is not the same thing. I know not every peice of perp gear is needed atm but it's hard to beat -6 perp in a single slot. I've Found avatar's favor to be a big enough effect to not use it, if your desperate for MP build your perp/refresh set.

-EDIT- to address your -EDIT-

I never said MP was a problem for either style of SMN, in fact I said that both can maintain MP more than well enough to keep us going(I'm para-phrasing here, can't even remember what thread I said it in lol) but backline prep/refresh set SMN doesn't need to rely on constant action to maintain it's MP

[Dallas]

MP is less of a problem for a melee summoner than it will ever be for any other summoner strategy.

I'm the bad guy, so I fixed your post.

[Razushu]

I'm the bad guy, so I fixed your post.

You're Special. Both styles have more than enough MP to perform well sure every 300%TP you can get 1500MP back but you wouldn't need nearly that much. Where as a refresh/perp set will save alot over time, With Garuda I save 240MP a minute from just cancelling perp cost with gear plus I get +2mp per tick back from her for a gained so thats a total 280MP a minute saved over someone with 0 perp/refresh gear on. Now this might not seem like much to someone like you who is blind to any number below 100 or so it seems thats a net gain of 1400MP over a 5 minute period. More than enough to go continously when coupled with elemental siphon and sublimation.

So tell me how your style has less of a problem with MP than my style when I have 0 problem maintaining mine under ANY circumstance.

[Dallas]

So tell me how your style has less of a problem with MP than my style when I have 0 problem maintaining mine under ANY circumstance.

I replace your useless staff with a real staff. I change NOTHING else. I do everything you just did AND have 1500mp extra MP. Melee SMN does everything you do, but with more MP, better buffs, and more damage.

That's if I was only playing the game to spank some guy who can't be bothered to level his staff skill. In reality, you are far too lazy to interest me.

[Razushu]

I replace your useless staff with a real staff. I change NOTHING else. I do everything you just did AND have 1500mp extra MP. Melee SMN does everything you do, but with more MP, better buffs, and more damage.

That's if I was only playing the game to spank some guy who can't be bothered to level his staff skill. In reality, you are far too lazy to interest me.
More MP on top of more MP than you can use is pointless. Melee SMN cannot do everything I do unless you think I predator claws every 45 secs and hastega every 5 minutes. Show me someone who claims they can DD, melee for MP, cycle buffs and back up the party and I'll show you a liar. Better buffs, how? we have access to the same buffs except I wear a good idle set so I don't need to worry about MP and can spend my time cycling avatars to give multiple buffs to my party. Why do I need to level staff that badly I have no interest in a niche playstyle I'll never lose an invite over it, I have capped Summoning magic skill and I worked like hell to do it, Why because it matters for every aspect of SMN.

Still waiting to be spanked here, I've countered every single argument you've made logically while you pick little bits of my posts and respond to that and even then it's usually you just flexing ur ego or flashing your epeen. Lazy? Ha I'm leveling BST solo, why? Because I'm ensuring all it's combat skills are capped or close to as I level. Because BST is the job you think SMN is and I'm leveling it for those moments where I want to melee beside a pet.

[Alhanelem]

Having something free and recouping the cost later is not the same thing.It's not LITERALLY the same thing. it is EFFECTIVELY the same thing. Neither player runs out of MP, therefore the perpetuation cost is irrelevant.


I know not every peice of perp gear is needed atm but it's hard to beat -6 perp in a single slot.It is beaten by being not needed at all. Why use perp in the weapon slot when it's both not needed and there are better non-perp weapons available. Not meleeing? Go Soulscourge. Oddly, the perp staff I see the most is the Dark one, which is the most pointless one to have. Diabolos is currently one of the most useless avatars, and the only reason to use him is for avatar's favor and a few other niche things. Fenrir, on the other hand, has a lower perpetuation cost to begin with. So, recap: Diabolos doesn't need it because you're probably using Favor. Fenrir doesn't need it because fenrir has a lower perp cost. Dark perp staff unneded. For me, any perp staff is unneded, as I can be gaining MP with absolutely any summon out under any conditions with Favor, and under certain conditions without it, with no perp on staff whatsoever. This is whether you melee or not- it doesn't matter. You do NOT need perp - on the weapon slot, and 6 is overkill. There are few non-perp items in other slots you would want to wear fulltime by using a perp staff. It is better to use a non-perp staff and use other slots for perp, again, regardless of whether you melee or not.

Razushu (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/3304-Razushu) stop arguing with Dallas, it's pointless. As long as you can acknowledge that a melee SMN is stronger than one who doesn't in terms of maximum possible damage output, then we're all fine and happy. No one other than Dallas is claiming it's the best thing in the world, only that it's a good thing for SMN itself- it's one tool out of many that a good SMN can have in his arsenal. You may not out DPS anyone, but it's still an improvement over BP and release. This points out an inherent flaw with SMN tha SE needs to address.

[Dallas]

I'll show you a liar.

Will it be as fantastic as your Full Swing was? You should swing your staff as much as you swing at me.

[Razushu]

Will it be as fantastic as your Full Swing was? You should swing your staff as much as you swing at me.

No I shouldn't I'm neither geared for it nor am I playing a job that was designed with melee in mind.

-EDIT-

You still miss the point of my posting that Full Swing info IT WAS TO SHOW YOU HOW NULL ANY ARGUMENT IS IF IT'S RELIANT ON NUMBERS FROM ABYSSEA TO SOUND ATTRACTIVE.

If the best you can do on a full swing geared/skilled/merited with full melee atmas is <x3 my damage with a weapon twice as good then I'm afraid your numbers aren't all that great either.

[Razushu]

It's not LITERALLY the same thing. it is EFFECTIVELY the same thing. Neither player runs out of MP, therefore the perpetuation cost is irrelevant.


It's good enough that further argument would be cyclical and amount to nothing more than nit picking so ok.


It is beaten by being not needed at all. Why use perp in the weapon slot when it's both not needed and there are better non-perp weapons available. Not meleeing? Go Soulscourge.


It's needed for a max perp/refresh set that allows me to full time evoker's spats and summoner's bracers seeing as +28 acc to avatars is very nice.


Oddly, the perp staff I see the most is the Dark one, which is the most pointless one to have. Diabolos is currently one of the most useless avatars, and the only reason to use him is for avatar's favor and a few other niche things. Fenrir, on the other hand, has a lower perpetuation cost to begin with. So, recap: Diabolos doesn't need it because you're probably using Favor. Fenrir doesn't need it because fenrir has a lower perp cost.

I think it's because there was alot of dark: -perp teiwaz holder's back at 75 cap, when you could only have 1 of the magian staves and - perp was much harder to come by.


Razushu stop arguing with Dallas, it's pointless. As long as you can acknowledge that a melee SMN is stronger than one who doesn't in terms of maximum possible damage output, then we're all fine and happy. No one other than Dallas is claiming it's the best thing in the world, only that it's a good thing for SMN itself- it's one tool out of many that a good SMN can have in his arsenal. You may not out DPS anyone, but it's still an improvement over BP and release. This points out an inherent flaw with SMN tha SE needs to address.

LOL I was wondering why you typed my name in a different colour for a minute, lack of sleep FTW. I've already said somewhere that both playstyles have merits and SMN melee will see better Damage output but poorer party buffs/support. this is true SE needs to boost avatars their melee is awful on anything T+. I'm sorry I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking SMN melee Ijust like arguing with arrogant know-it-all fools

[Dallas]

You still miss the point

Level staff skill and get a real weapon and you'll understand why I ignored your point.

[Razushu]

Level staff skill and get a real weapon and you'll understand why I ignored your point.

Get a real DD job and level it's appropriate weapon skill.

You seem dumber with every post. If you're ignoring me stop posting replies, with each reply you look less like you know what you're doing and more like you lack the intelligence/game knowledge to respond sensibly

[Korpg]

I replace your useless staff with a real staff. I change NOTHING else. I do everything you just did AND have 1500mp extra MP. Melee SMN does everything you do, but with more MP, better buffs, and more damage.

That's if I was only playing the game to spank some guy who can't be bothered to level his staff skill. In reality, you are far too lazy to interest me.

I knew that Dallas was going to bring out laziness back to his argument.

Again with the "my way or the highway" attitude Dallas? You know you aren't attracting people into your point of view by doing that.

Also, while you may do more damage at first, you will die more than I would. And what is the point in doing more damage when our DoT will be equal or so close it will not matter.

Don't forget that after you die, you will have to wait 5 minutes just to do anything because you don't have the gear to keep your avatar out without meleeing or risk dying again.

[Malamasala]

No I shouldn't I'm neither geared for it nor playing a job that was designed with melee in mind.

I hope you aren't casting cures. Because your job is not designed for it. (Not more than DRK is designed for casting cures at least). I will admit you could gear for casting cures though, because SE has made the insane design choices of randomly putting us on those armors.

SE should give us identical armors to BLU and DRK, considering we are designed by the same base. A melee job with MP.

[Razushu]

I hope you aren't casting cures. Because your job is not designed for it. (Not more than DRK is designed for casting cures at least). I will admit you could gear for casting cures though, because SE has made the insane design choices of randomly putting us on those armors.

SE should give us identical armors to BLU and DRK, considering we are designed by the same base. A melee job with MP.

Summoner is not a melee job with MP, any job in this game can gear for melee and easily outstrip SMN Seriously we are a magical pet job pure and simple we have the least going for us as far as melee is concerned. Of course I'm casting cures if thats whats needed because I have enough MP and can equip enough curing gear to make it not awful. Before you start with "your job is not designed for it" I don't join a party to just heal I join to DD/Buff/support it. Which begs the question why are you showing up to a party geared for melee on a job not designed for it with that as you main purpose.

SE didn't put us on healing gear randomly it was done with a purpose SMN and WHM have a long standing like in previous FFs and SMN was NEVER a melee in these either. We can make better use of a healing/support subjob than most others because the way our main job works gives us little chunks of free time which can be used to fil in the gaps so to speak.

SMN was designed as a DD/support job it has no more going for it melee than ANY other job and less going for it in nearly all cases(I say nearly all to err on the side of caution, there may be one other job as bad off as us but I haven't seen it yet.

No where ever has SE said SMN and melee in the same sentence. I'm not saying don't melee I'm just saying the job is not designed for it please admit it.

[Korpg]

BRD is designed for melee. That job out damages melee SMN. See how bad SMN melee is? When a spoony BRD out damage you without buffs (outside of what the job offers), with a dagger no less, then maybe the job isn't designed for melee.

SMN was designed for a multitude of things. Spike Damage. AoE Cures. AoE Buffs. AoE Debuffs. Strong soloing ability. No job should be solely dependent on the subjob for what the player would like to do. If the SMN wants to be the main healer, they have to sub /WHM to do so. If the SMN wants to be a melee, they have to sub /WAR or /SAM to do so. That is not what SMN was designed to do.

[Byrth]

Biggest enemy to melee summoners is logic. Second biggest enemy is advocates like Dallas.

[Sparthos]

Biggest enemy to melee summoners is logic. Second biggest enemy is advocates like Dallas.

His entire argument is built on the crutch of Abyssean buffs where anyone can melee at a passable rate.

Im half tempted to revive my SCH, gear it for melee and proclaim melee superiority using a Pluto's Staff and Omniscience. Look out SMN, competition has arrived.

[Alhanelem]

poorer party buffs/supportThis is nonsense. In a party, this lets you use Favor to its fullest; it also lets you take better advantage of SMN's party buffs because you're always already near everyone.


Biggest enemy to melee summoners is logicLogic is the strategy's biggest ally, not it's biggest enemy. It's biggest enemy is closed minds. Logic dictates that if you want to do more damage at any cost and you have already maximized your blood pacts, the only way to add more damage is to add avatar melee, master melee, or both.

"You are a mage and you can't melee" is not logic.


His entire argument is built on the crutch of Abyssean buffs where anyone can melee at a passable rate. It is far from being only effective in abyssea. Abyssea only inflates numbers; they keep mostly the same proportions as outside of abyssea. The only real difference is the dominance of critical hit WS, which arguably makes SMN worse in abyssea than elsewhere because staff has no crit WS.


BRD is designed for melee. That job out damages melee SMN.No, it really doesn't. I will stake my reputation on that. I don't even see BRD doing more damage with any dagger WS than I could do with retribution or Aftermath damage, then you have the avatar on top of that. I'm sorry. BRD 1) isn't "designed for melee" and 2) does not out damage probably any proper SMN, much less melee SMN. I thought we had an understanding up til this point, maybe I was wrong. You are just making stuff up here. No BRD is going to out damage ANYBODY except maybe a SCH trying to melee the best they can. A SMN's staff does not exist in a vaccum, and the avatar must be included, because if you're not using your avatar, you're not a SMN.

[Razushu]

This is nonsense. In a party, this lets you use Favor to its fullest; it also lets you take better advantage of SMN's party buffs because you're always already near everyone.

Favor is terrible weakened damage from Garuda for extra evasion that resets every 45 seconds? not worth the invite. When people mention buff they mean wards which unless you're just giving the pt just shadows hastega and weak eva boost which is not really using your SMN to fully benefit the party, you have to pet swap and thats only going to hurt your melee spreading yourself thinner.



Logic is the strategy's biggest ally, not it's biggest enemy. It's biggest enemy is closed minds. Logic dictates that if you want to do more damage at any cost and you have already maximized your blood pacts, the only way to add more damage is to add avatar melee, master melee, or both.

You add damage and other bonuses to the party by buffing it also which is safer. Besides if you were there to solely DD, Why are you there? Honestly if theres going to be a melee on the monster why wouldn'y it be an actual DD


"You are a mage and you can't melee well" is logic.

This is more accurate and less close minded than the "I wanna melee so I'm gonna" approach


It is far from being only effective in abyssea. Abyssea only inflates numbers; they keep mostly the same proportions as outside of abyssea. The only real difference is the dominance of critical hit WS, which arguably makes SMN worse in abyssea than elsewhere because staff has no crit WS.

It's not just the nummbers that scale up you'll be missing alot of accuracy and attk from stat buff in that'll hurt too

[Razushu]

No, it really doesn't. I will stake my reputation on that. I don't even see BRD doing more damage with any dagger WS than I could do with retribution or Aftermath damage, then you have the avatar on top of that. I'm sorry. BRD 1) isn't "designed for melee" and 2) does not out damage probably any proper SMN, much less melee SMN. I thought we had an understanding up til this point, maybe I was wrong. You are just making stuff up here. No BRD is going to out damage ANYBODY except maybe a SCH trying to melee the best they can. A SMN's staff does not exist in a vaccum, and the avatar must be included, because if you're not using your avatar, you're not a SMN.

I've seen melee BRDs do great numbers. Stop adding your Avatar's damage to your melee any style of SMN, if I'm not meleeing the avatar still does damage it doesn't disappear. The avatar's damage and Buffs is enough to make us useful and it's still there if you melee or not but if you melee the buff side falls behind

[Alhanelem]

Favor is terrible weakened damage from GarudaActually, it's barely weakened at all. The reduced attack has a minimal effect on melee DoT and physical blood pacts.


I've seen melee BRDs do great numbers. Stop adding your Avatar's damage to your melee any style of SMN,The avatar's damage is part of the summoner's, I will not stop adding it because it is part of what I do. The avatar and its damage does not exist without the summoner. That's like saying the puppet isn't part of what the puppetmaster is doing. I have also never seen BRDs do "great" numbers, especially without buffs (which are part of the job and should be factored in just the same as I factor in the pets. This is about the performance of a job as a whole, not just one part of it while ignoring all others.


accuracyI have no problems with accuracy. If it's not high enough, I'll just eat pizza instead of meat. Everyone else is missing those attack and accuracy buffs as well. Nothing about Abyssea helps SMN more than it helps any other job, and in fact other jobs benefit more.

[Raksha]

Everyone else is missing those attack and accuracy buffs as well.

Other jobs don't need them (DD gear, A+ skills, JAs/JTs etc.)

[Greatguardian]

Actually, it's barely weakened at all. The reduced attack has a minimal effect on melee DoT and physical blood pacts.

The avatar's damage is part of the summoner's, I will not stop adding it because it is part of what I do. The avatar and its damage does not exist without the summoner. That's like saying the puppet isn't part of what the puppetmaster is doing. I have also never seen BRDs do "great" numbers, especially without buffs (which are part of the job and should be factored in just the same as I factor in the pets. This is about the performance of a job as a whole, not just one part of it while ignoring all others.

I have no problems with accuracy. If it's not high enough, I'll just eat pizza instead of meat. Everyone else is missing those attack and accuracy buffs as well. Nothing about Abyssea helps SMN more than it helps any other job, and in fact other jobs benefit more.

I've grown weary of the argument in general, but he's not saying that Avatar damage is not part of Summoner damage. He's saying that certain people need to stop talking about "Player + Avatar DoT" as a benefit for melee'ing when the only added benefit from melee'ing is Player DoT. Avatar DoT will still be there even if the SMN is not melee'ing. Player+Avatar DoT is a measurement that can only be used to compare to Non-SMN Empyreans (Who the hell compares an Empyrean to a non-Emp? That's an even bigger fallacy), which is a worthless argument that only Dallas seems to wish to pursue. SMN will never outdamage a real DD, no matter how "unlazy" and contrived it is. If I were on Dallas's server (which one is that?), I'd be more than happy to prove that point personally.

Assuming you will never run out of MP either way, you are literally adding Staff TP-phase damage only. Is it an increase? Yes. It is massive? No, especially if you don't run out of MP either way. Is it the best route? That depends on what you give up by using it. If you lose nothing? Sure, more damage is always nice. If you actually do give up support-class benefits while melee'ing? Then it's debatable.

[Dallas]

His entire argument is built on the crutch of Abyssean buffs where anyone can melee at a passable rate.

Did everyone just climb out from under a rock? Pick a forum. Melee SMN first came out with colibri camps.


Assuming you will never run out of MP either way, you are literally adding Staff TP-phase damage only. Is it an increase? Yes. It is massive? No, especially not if you don't run out of MP either way.

You do realize that Minikin's refresh is the ONLY reason that "do nothing" SMN have unlimited MP, right? We're one good update away from SMN crying about their MP again. I'm looking forward to the good old days again.

[Byrth]

Did everyone just climb out from under a rock? Pick a forum. Melee SMN first came out with colibri camps.

Heard it here first guys, pet burns on Bark Tarantulas in Dragon's Aery didn't exist.

Greatguardian is entirely correct.

Dallas, you're implying that you're going to start running out of MP if you can't melee, which is bad, because all of the situations where your job is remotely useful are also situations where meleeing is impractical. I'm basically talking about Voidwatch and ??? pop Dynamis NMs.

[Alhanelem]

He's saying that certain people need to stop talking about "Player + Avatar DoT" as a benefit for melee'ing when the only added benefit from melee'ing is Player DoT.Who is arguing that something that isn't "added" is "added?"

I mean, this is kind of a duh situation- of course the melee dot is the added benefit. The Avatar stuff is what you do already. As far as I could tell, the poster was trying to tell me that his DoT on BRD is better than my DoT. Which might be true (I'm pretty sure it's not, actually) but the total damage a SMN can do far exeeds the total dmg a BRD can do; especially given that the only tool BRD has for additional damage is buffing his own attack or haste.

That said, this was never supposed to be a pissing contest about which job gets the biggest e-peen or most damage or whatever. It was supposed to be about whether the relic/empy staves had any utility. And the answer is they absolutely do. Do they turn you into an unbeatable killing machine? Absolutely not. Can they be put to good use by someone who builds a strategy around it? Absolutely yes.

So please, drop the subject of whether or not XYZ job does more damage than SMN. I don't really give a care and that's not what this is about. Just ignore dallas and get on with it.

[Dallas]

Dallas, you're implying that you're going to start running out of MP if you can't melee, which is bad, because all of the situations where your job is remotely useful are also situations where meleeing is impractical. I'm basically talking about Voidwatch and ??? pop Dynamis NMs.

Yes, this is the standard approach. Once you realize that melee is plausible in 99% of all situations, focus on the 1%. I have a general answer for you, at least for Dynamis (Voidwatch is crap). It is not necessary to melee as SMN on any mob that no one else melees. There are OTHER mobs in Dynamis to build TP on.

Remember, the backup plan is to play like the gimps. I have more utility.

[Leonlionheart]

Yes, this is the standard approach. Once you realize that melee is plausible in 99% of all situations, focus on the 1%. I have a general answer for you, at least for Dynamis (Voidwatch is crap). It is not necessary to melee as SMN on any mob that no one else melees. There are OTHER mobs in Dynamis to build TP on.

Remember, the backup plan is to play like the gimps. I have more utility.

TPing on other mobs to refresh your MP when you can just use a perp- staff and sub rdm for refresh, and still get MP back at all times. This argument kind of throws your "SMN MELEE IS CUL CUZ I DO DAMG WIT STAV" out of the equation.

[Dallas]

I can sub /RDM too, but I sub /WHM for Cure 4 and Abyssea procs. Just more proof how little non-melee can do without refresh.

[Leonlionheart]

No, it really doesn't. I will stake my reputation on that. I don't even see BRD doing more damage with any dagger WS than I could do with retribution or Aftermath damage, then you have the avatar on top of that. I'm sorry. BRD 1) isn't "designed for melee" and 2) does not out damage probably any proper SMN, much less melee SMN. I thought we had an understanding up til this point, maybe I was wrong. You are just making stuff up here. No BRD is going to out damage ANYBODY except maybe a SCH trying to melee the best they can. A SMN's staff does not exist in a vaccum, and the avatar must be included, because if you're not using your avatar, you're not a SMN.

BRD gets three times as much accuracy in gear as other mage jobs, can use Byakko's Haidate, Dusk Gloves and boots, and Goliard Saio and Zelus Tiara along with Goading/speed/ninurta's to cap haste. Hell, they can even skip the boots and use whatever they want in that slot, albeit minimal other choices, and still come out with acceptable haste. Not to mention they get Twashtar and Mandau, and will always have more haste by themselves than any other job possibly could, (aside from DRK/WHM).

Edit: pDIF is still an issue, although they can fix it with food and songs because their gear allows them to stray away from using accuracy food only

[Leonlionheart]

I can sub /RDM too, but I sub /WHM for Cure 4 and Abyssea procs. Just more proof how little non-melee can do without refresh.

lol you didn't adress my argument at all. No point in meleeing where you can be just as effective without endangering yourself fighting TP mobs.

[Dallas]

lol you didn't adress my argument at all. No point in meleeing where you can be just as effective without endangering yourself fighting TP mobs.

Oooh, is exp still an issue on your planet? On my planet, I throw on reraise, and in the unlikely event I die, I will play as effective as the gimps while weakened.

[Leonlionheart]

Oooh, is exp still an issue on your planet? On my planet, I throw on reraise, and in the unlikely event I die, I will play as effective as the gimps while weakened.

Now you're just trolling.

[Neisan_Quetz]

At least Brd caps haste. I also think you overestimate aftermath damage, especially since you have to use a 0 damage WS to keep it up...

[Alhanelem]

BRD gets three times as much accuracy in gear as other mage jobsBecause you really need that much accuracy...

Also, 2H weapons offer slightly better accuracy and attack due to the 2H weapon STR bonus.

A BRD with daggers is like a DNC without any of the offensive-boosting abilities like saber dance and the tier 2/3 flourishes; and DNC DMG is already pretty low. I'm more than confident that if I'm in a party on SMN and a BRD starts meleeing, that I will outparse them in total damage (meaning all damage from all sources the jobs are capable of)

Regardless, by all means keep having a DD epeen contest when t hat's not what the thread is really about.

[Dallas]

Yes it is, Al. If mages should melee, the big 3 staves have utility, and an entire forum (BG) would have to shut down.

[Alhanelem]

BG should shut down regardless of anything that goes on in this thread or forum in general.

[Dallas]

That makes 2 things we agree about publicly. Careful!

[Azagthoth]

Oh yes, BG should shut down since they're the only ones that disagree with you; I guess you're just angry that there are people out there that understand how the game works, which prevents you from being anymore than a laughing stock in most groups if you even suggest meleeing.

[Korpg]

Oooh, is exp still an issue on your planet? On my planet, I throw on reraise, and in the unlikely event I die, I will play as effective as the gimps while weakened.

How can you play as effective? You still have to melee to keep MP up even while weakened, and 100 HP is not going to last you at all while you try to melee. Any AoE TP move or poison/DoT AoE move WILL kill you, and then you will have to reraise yourself again and wait another 5 minutes. Your avatar will not be able to stay out at all because of all the mp used to keep RR up while you wait a good 10 seconds between swings to get MP back up, only to die again because you are too pigheaded to realize when to back off.

Unless you can say for a fact that while weakened, you can maintain the type of damage you are doing without using any MP at all?

[Leonlionheart]

Actually when you don't have A-~+ skill accuracy can still be an issue, specially for those jobs that lack accuracy in AF3 gear. I severely doubt that outside of Abyssea (on new content) SMN has over 80% accuracy without using heavy accuracy Sushi like Sole and Squid.

lol BG haters... BG has done more for FFXI than any other community website could hope to do.

You hate because you have no reason.

If we're going back to talking about OP: Yes, relic and Empyrean staves have next to no utility for practical reasons. Mythic Staff for SMN rocks, beyond all other mage mythics (aside from yagrush). However the other two mythics are meh. Inventory +5 for them though, assuming you don't mind doing less damage on BLM, and always keeping the correct weather on SCH.

[Korpg]

I hate BG also, but for different reasons, but I won't deny that they have helped this game a lot more than hurt it.

Also, Mythic SMN staff does wonders for both melee, BP, and just standing there and letting the avatar do the work.

It would have more use for a melee SMN than an Emp staff would, because not only would your aftermaths help you, you don't have to wait for 300% TP to use them either. Lets not forget that it also benefits the avatar too, but Dallas might not like that at all.

[Leonlionheart]

I hate BG also, but for different reasons, but I won't deny that they have helped this game a lot more than hurt it.

Also, Mythic SMN staff does wonders for both melee, BP, and just standing there and letting the avatar do the work.

It would have more use for a melee SMN than an Emp staff would, because not only would your aftermaths help you, you don't have to wait for 300% TP to use them either. Lets not forget that it also benefits the avatar too, but Dallas might not like that at all.

100% aftermath = accuracy bonus
200% = accuracy and attack
300% = acc, att, and oa2

You'd have to parse it but waiting for 300% might benefit you more, assuming that Ao2 goes to avatar too.

[Korpg]

100% aftermath = accuracy bonus
200% = accuracy and attack
300% = acc, att, and oa2

You'd have to parse it but waiting for 300% might benefit you more, assuming that Ao2 goes to avatar too.

Wait, I thought its 100% accuracy, 200% attack, and 300% oa2 separated instead of all together like you stated.

[Alhanelem]

lol BG haters... BG has done more for FFXI than any other community website could hope to do.And they've also been the most concieted a-holes in the entire community. You can get banned from their forums just for asking a question without doing a research paper on the subject first. And when you get banned, you don't just get banned, you get publicly humiliated. It's an elitists-only club. Everyone would be a lot more thankful for what they've done if they got off their high horses and treated the community at large respectably.

Besides that, I would argue that the community at large has done far more than BG. Yes BG, thank you for the damage formulas and scientific testing of this or that. Thank you everyone else for doing all the hard work to collect information about just about everything else.


Also, Mythic SMN staff does wonders for both melee, BP, and just standing there and letting the avatar do the work.

It would have more use for a melee SMN than an Emp staff would, because not only would your aftermaths help you, you don't have to wait for 300% TP to use them either. Lets not forget that it also benefits the avatar too, but Dallas might not like that at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that Nirvana is one of the few mythic weapons that's worth the hell you have to go through to get. But it's just pretty much unobtainable to all but the most diehard, insane people. the empy or relic weapons are still very useful to the people who want them and are both way more obtainable. The empy weapon is not that difficult to obtain (though the 85>90 trial is a pain in the ass without a few dedicated friends or a lot of brews) and does the job that people who get it want from it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You only get banned for asking retarded questions before reading the sticky.

[Alhanelem]

You only get banned for asking retarded questions before reading the sticky.
You get banned for asking any question where any information is avialable anywhere. Any question falls into that category is "retarded" as far as they are concerned.

[Dallas]

It would have more use for a melee SMN than an Emp staff would
Except that you get 0 MP from that WS so you'd have to make all those same concessions in gear, subjobs, and atma that the "do nothing" crowd does. You won't be meleeing well, and your pet will be using magic pacts. Magic atma will suck for DOT, phys atma will suck for BP. Outside Abyssea, the gimp factor is much less noticable.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You get banned for asking any question where any information is avialable anywhere. Any question falls into that category is "retarded" as far as they are concerned.

Uh no? you just sound mayad and wrong since I've seen plenty of questions asked (and asked myself) with no one getting banned. Don't make retarded threads when there's an area for random questions and you won't get banned.

[Azagthoth]

Random Question Thread. If you're completely retarted about starting new threads after being warned, then yes, you'll probably get banned and humiliated.

[Shadotter]

Kinda skipped over most of the discussion on whether a mage can melee as well as a melee, but what are people's thoughts on meleeing as supplemental damage in between nukes or whatever, might be a good way to conserve mp if done right, or could be usefull to open for skillchains and later magic burst off of them.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If your damage isn't worth you being in range of any high damaging TP moves/spells/ debilitating auras you shouldn't be meleeing end of story. If that isn't the case knock yourself out no one cares.

[Alhanelem]

Random Question Thread. If you're completely retarted about starting new threads after being warned, then yes, you'll probably get banned and humiliated.
There's nothing wrong with Random Question Threads. If you're going to warn and ban people over these, then you're a**holes. Go to any other forum, including this one. You'll see random questions all over the place. But do you see anyone hating them for it, or calling for them to be banned? No.


Don't make retarded threads when there's an area for random questions and you won't get banned. The last time I was there, there was no such area. The BG community is extremely hostile to anyone that isn't as elite as they are. And before you ask, no, I haven't been banned from BG. But if you're going to ban people, just ban them. The whole thing where they change the banned user's avatar to some psychadelic anime dude shaking baby rattles is completely unnecessary, no matter how much they deserved being banned.


Kinda skipped over most of the discussion on whether a mage can melee as well as a melee, but what are people's thoughts on meleeing as supplemental damage in between nukes or whatever, might be a good way to conserve mp if done right, or could be usefull to open for skillchains and later magic burst off of them. If you didn't skip over the discussion you'd have your answer. You either melee or you don't. If you're a caster mage and you're meleeing, you're still going to be casting your spells, so there's the "supplemental" damage you're talking about. If you're a SMN, you're not casting any spells the vast majority of the time, thus you have the free time to up your "supplemental" damage even more. But for most casters, what with frequent spell casts and typical usage of elemental staves which can't be switched without losing TP and have low DMG ratings anyway, meleeing has no useful function. Summoner with an empy/mythic/relic staff gets away with this because they are using a weapon built for attacking, and do not spend nearly as much time casting spells and such, and their WS (relic or empy) gives them back MP.

[Dallas]

Kinda skipped over most of the discussion on whether a mage can melee as well as a melee, but what are people's thoughts on meleeing as supplemental damage in between nukes or whatever, might be a good way to conserve mp if done right, or could be usefull to open for skillchains and later magic burst off of them.

That's the trick, isn't it? It's always more damage than the person who doesn't melee. Those people then bring WAR and BRD into the discussion, and it gets all kinds of stupid in here.