Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Alhanelem]

Why haven't you just put him on your ignore list already?

[Korpg]

Dallas? Cause he is entertaining!!!

No one is more delusional than Dallas, not even Cream Soda and his superiority complex.

[Alhanelem]

I know this was way back

I mean, I get the whole "YouTube"esque "We'll have takedown policies, but it's your responsibility to report abuse" method of increasing site traffic. It's kind of a pain though, and you guys aren't working on FFXIclopedia anymore so you could probably start legitimately questioning where the information comes from.
It's true, I probably can, but there are problems with just reverting edits and banning people left and right for this.

I have to act carefully because I don't want Wikia itself to get the idea that its administrators are trashing the wiki to get people to leave. Which, I want people to switch, but I also don't want to use destructive measures to do so, which is something that makes us better than other groups that have left Wikia, such as WoWwiki.

[Leonlionheart]

SE created Maat's Cap when a couple guys who were bored decided to level all jobs. All that storage space? Also unintended. SE intended for people to switch characters. BG insisted that people level the bandwagon job of the month.

Rather than "BG insisted," I'm sure people played the bandwagon job of the month because it was miles ahead of everyone else (see: Polearm SAM at birds, or just SAM in general). Players generally tend to flock to the stronger jobs, because they are stronger.

It's like saying in real life: Well I have this Porsche, but it's not fully ready to be driven yet. Then I have this Geo Metro that's ready to go, would you rather:
A: Get the Porsche up to speed, or
B: Drive around in a Geo Metro?

In this post: Porsches are bandwagon

[Dallas]

You're oblivious. You don't deal 4 times the damage of a BP/release Summoner ever. You don't deal 2.5x the damage of a BP/release Summoner unless you're rocking Haste Samba, dual Marches, Haste, and Red Curry buns.

You don't even eat food, as far as I can tell from your posts. The damage you, personally, add is laughable.

BP/release SMN gets no benefit from Haste and approximately a quarter the avatar melee since they are busy aligning their Wards and Rages. Melee SMN is well over 50% of the damage unbuffed. Of course, you have to take my word on that. Crits + Aftermath = 900 damage. Avatar crits = 200 damage. More haste, better gear. I've taken melee SMN so far, I've established it can't be min/maxed without fixing avatar hate.

I only humor your calculations because it's easier to manipulate BG than fix BG. In order to address a real situation, you have to add in that 90% of the playerbase is NOT a Ukon WAR. I have unlimited mp, I cure, I buff, I proc, and deal more damage than any pickup DD. You don't care about these people, but they exist by the thousands.

What SMN does better than ANY other job is switch roles at the drop of a hat. If you don't know what you need, or think you could use everything just to be safe, a SMN will fill the role better than any other job.

Some 10 random perks of SMN that you will never see in your calculations:
1) SMN can never be slept if it leaves avatars out: Sacrifice torque (with the exception of the Diabolos fight)
2) SMN with Myrkr cannot be silenced.
3) SMN damage/heals/buffs is immune to silence anyway. It can easily be ignored.
4) SMN tanking does not use shadows. Ducal Guard plug here.
5) BP/release SMN can step out of range of Amnesia. Melee SMN can keep doing what it was doing.
6) Each avatar is nearly immune to one status effect and is likewise highly resistant to that element.
7) SMN has all 8 elements in spiked damage as well as physical. The avatar strong to an element defensively is also strong offensively.
8) Melee SMN hate is split between a pet and the SMN. It's easy to keep hate under that of an evasion tank. My melee SMN runs around in -38% enmity just because I've broken the job. That sacrifices almost no melee potential.
9) A trick for the cool SMN: SMN is the only job that can cure itself of petrification. I've successfully done it a dozen times meleeing Kukulkan.
10) Avatars are unaffected by weakness. SMN is the job to save a pt.

The benefit of having ME around can't be measured with a number.

[Greatguardian]

Naw. But I can qualify it as less than the benefit a group would get having me around. On any job.

You'd just have to take my word on that :)

[Azagthoth]

Some 10 random perks of SMN that you will never see in your calculations:
1) SMN can never be slept if it leaves avatars out: Sacrifice torque (with the exception of the Diabolos fight)
2) SMN with Myrkr cannot be silenced.
3) SMN damage/heals/buffs is immune to silence anyway. It can easily be ignored.
4) SMN tanking does not use shadows. Ducal Guard plug here.
5) BP/release SMN can step out of range of Amnesia. Melee SMN can keep doing what it was doing.
6) Each avatar is nearly immune to one status effect and is likewise highly resistant to that element.
7) SMN has all 8 elements in spiked damage as well as physical. The avatar strong to an element defensively is also strong offensively.
8) Melee SMN hate is split between a pet and the SMN. It's easy to keep hate under that of an evasion tank. My melee SMN runs around in -38% enmity just because I've broken the job. That sacrifices almost no melee potential.
9) A trick for the cool SMN: SMN is the only job that can cure itself of petrification. I've successfully done it a dozen times meleeing Kukulkan.
10) Avatars are unaffected by weakness. SMN is the job to save a pt.

The benefit of having ME around can't be measured with a number.

1. Frenzy Sallet and Berserker's Torque say hi.
2. It's only better than Echo Drops if you're paralyzed and Echo Drops don't require TP.
3. What was the point of saying point 2 then?
4. If you have a decent healer most jobs don't require shadows either, in Abyssea.
5. How does a melee SMN getting hit by Amnesia benefit them?
6. Yes, nobody is arguing that SMN isn't situationally a good choice.
7. This can be clumped together with 6.
8. What's your point? Nobody is worried about a melee SMN taking hate off of a tank.
9. That's why we have WHMs, RDMs, BRDs, etc. Kukulkan's Petrification counts down from 20, which is why you have time to prepare for it.
10. Nobody is saying SMNs aren't nice to hold mobs, in the event of a wipe, or the tank/s going down.

The benefit of not having a moron around can't be quantified either since it varies person-to-person.

[Alhanelem]

2. It's only better than Echo Drops if you're paralyzed and Echo Drops don't require TP.I agree, but most people can't remove their own silence lacking echo drops. Yes, everyone should have them, though sometimes you run out. Also, it removes more than para and silence- Myrkr allows summoner to retain a little of its independence whilst subbing some other job that it doesn't usually sub (SMNs often sub WHM not because they love being looked at as healers, but because it's the most functional subjob- Yes, you can heal people with it, but the biggest thing about it is it means you can remove certain status effects from yourself and not rely on others to do it for you.) It's a minor bonus but it's basically icing on a cake, and it's something unique in weapon skills- There are other WS that gain you MP and HP, but no WS that heal status effects (unless I'm crazy and deluded and forgot about something somewhere)

[Dallas]

Nobody is saying SMNs aren't nice to [action]
They have been saying for 1000 posts that there's no reason to have a SMN for [action] when everyone should have [bandwagon job].

[Sparthos]

Wonder if Dallas is on Lakshmi cause id formally invite him to Voidwatch as a melee SMN to go up against the LS BP/release SMNs.

Could parse out the whole thing.

[Leonlionheart]

They have been saying for 1000 posts that there's no reason to have a SMN for [action] when everyone should have [bandwagon job].

There are reasons to have them, but they don't justify actually inviting a SMN, at least not in Abyssea.

[Dallas]

It's not my fault people disagree with you.

[Leonlionheart]

It's not my fault people disagree with you.

This, I'm afraid, I cannot translate. Therefor all I can say is:

wut

[Dallas]

Read posts made by other people. You will quickly discover there are other people.

[Malamasala]

Wonder if Dallas is on Lakshmi cause id formally invite him to Voidwatch as a melee SMN to go up against the LS BP/release SMNs.

Could parse out the whole thing.

Naturally you pick your targets. I wouldn't go near any of the silly monsters that have the gimmick "I toss AOE, therefore I am". And as you probably know, neither does other jobs. It is always "Keep 1-2 tanks on it, and whatever trigger job is for HQ". So Summoner would parse just about equal to the other jobs like WAR on voidwatch, due to them not actually engaging either. But a RNG or SMN with BP+release would parse really high.

[Dallas]

That's the whole point. If WAR can't do it, it's proof that SMN shouldn't melee. ;)

[Sparthos]

Naturally you pick your targets. I wouldn't go near any of the silly monsters that have the gimmick "I toss AOE, therefore I am". And as you probably know, neither does other jobs. It is always "Keep 1-2 tanks on it, and whatever trigger job is for HQ". So Summoner would parse just about equal to the other jobs like WAR on voidwatch, due to them not actually engaging either. But a RNG or SMN with BP+release would parse really high.

It wouldn't even need to be a T4. A T3 like the Turtle, Behemoth, Tonberry would be enough to prove my point.

Either way, without a doubt I know his ego is writing checks his body can't cash. The second he isn't supported by cruor buffs he's going underwater like all the other wannabe melee like BRD WHM RDM.

[Alhanelem]

The second he isn't supported by cruor buffs he's going underwater like all the other wannabe melee like BRD WHM RDM. Whoever you're comparing to doesn't have the cruor buffs either, so the balance remains the same. It's not going to be any better or worse. In fact, non-abyssea favors the summoner more because Staff has no crit WS anyway and crit WS are laregly responsible for other job's drastic power increase. It does help garuda, some yes, but the master's share of the damage is already higher, so it doesn't make much of a difference, especially considering the BP timer.

Summoner still gets its butt kicked, of course. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that Abyssea is helping summoner disproportionately, it's actually helping them less than other jobs.

[Korpg]

In fact, non-abyssea favors the summoner more because Staff has no crit WS anyway and crit WS are laregly responsible for other job's drastic power increase.

Actually, SMN would be weaker because they lose the large DEX boost from buffs and RR.

[TybudX]

That's the whole point. If WAR can't do it, it's proof that SMN shouldn't melee.

You don't get a cookie for being the slowest kid in the class. Post #32:


fights that require hateless damage sources at range generally don't want a Summoner meleeing.

Goes hand in hand with reading posts by other people. You'll quickly find there are other people who dismantled all your made up arguments long before you posted them.

[Alhanelem]

Actually, SMN would be weaker because they lose the large DEX boost from buffs and RR.
Everyone else loses the dex boost from buffs and RR too.

You lose the abyssea buffs, but so does anyone else.

[Leonlionheart]

Everyone else loses the dex boost from buffs and RR too.

You lose the abyssea buffs, but so does anyone else.

yeah, but other jobs don't need the accuracy from DEX like SMN does. WAR still has capped accuracy pretty much everywhere (excluding select voidwatch fights) without food, no way in hell SMN can do that.

[Dallas]

Goes hand in hand with reading posts by other people. You'll quickly find there are other people who dismantled all your made up arguments long before you posted them.

LOL, no concept of mockery I see. Reeling it in! Thanks! Now, please estimate the percentage of time a Ukon WAR is playing a "competent job" because WAR is useless.


yeah, but other jobs don't need the accuracy from DEX like SMN does. WAR still has capped accuracy pretty much everywhere (excluding select voidwatch fights) without food, no way in hell SMN can do that.

And yet Myrkr still happens. Why is that?

[TybudX]

Now, please estimate the percentage of time a Ukon WAR is playing a "competent job" because WAR is useless.

It's already been explained in this very thread that SMN is a terrible melee job, has useless/crappy buffs outside EA/PD, and is nothing special as a /whm or /rdm healer. So WAR is useless because there are a (very) few fights in the game where ranged damage is better? *cough*BLM*cough*RDM*cough*RNG*cough*COR*cough*SCH*cough*lolPUP*cough*
SAM*cough*... oh, wait, you guys are as good as BST. Good job, again.

Am I to assume that your only job is SMN? It seems to be very important to your argument that somebody might ever have to change jobs. It has to be, seeing as you refuse to switch to a better suited job for what? 98% of the games content? Hope you are proud of that last 2% bro, you're really rocking this argument.

[Korpg]

And yet Myrkr still happens. Why is that?

Yeah, a WS exists, so what?

Wiffing a third of the time instead of a fifth of the time now? You think that is an improvement?

[Dallas]

It's already been explained in this very thread that SMN is a terrible melee job, has useless/crappy buffs outside EA/PD, and is nothing special as a /whm or /rdm healer. So WAR is useless because there are a (very) few fights in the game where ranged damage is better?
Psst, I'm mocking you. Congratulations, you pwn PvE with lots of help!


Yeah, a WS exists, so what?

Wiffing a third of the time instead of a fifth of the time now? You think that is an improvement?

Don't you wish you were alive in 2006? Those guys strutted around thinking SMN missed 80% of the time.

[Malamasala]

yeah, but other jobs don't need the accuracy from DEX like SMN does. WAR still has capped accuracy pretty much everywhere (excluding select voidwatch fights) without food, no way in hell SMN can do that.

I wear more accuracy gear on my SMN than on my DNC. But I do admit that DNC is like B+ when SMN is a terrible B.

[Sparthos]

Everyone else loses the dex boost from buffs and RR too.

You lose the abyssea buffs, but so does anyone else.

The DD isn't relying as much on the cruor/atmas than the mage job attempting to melee.

For fun, what does your melee gear look like? How much ATT and ACC are you using in gear before atma/cruor?

[Cream_Soda]

Psst, I'm mocking you. Congratulations, you pwn PvE with lots of help!



Don't you wish you were alive in 2006? Those guys strutted around thinking SMN missed 80% of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLJfduFRfw&feature=related

[Byrth]

I wear more accuracy gear on my SMN than on my DNC. But I do admit that DNC is like B+ when SMN is a terrible B.

DNC also get Accuracy Bonus III, so that's another 35 Acc difference. SMN uses a 2H weapon though, so they get 25% DEX in their favor.

If I were to argue against the feasibility of melee summoner, Accuracy would not be my argument of choice. pDIF would be. It is so beneficial to Myrkr Summoner to keep capped Accuracy that it's entirely worth using Sushi to do it, which means they can realistically cap Acc on all but Thief monsters with proper gear, merits, and Sushi.

By the time your Acc uncaps with Sushi and proper gear, your pDIF will be so horrid that the shit damage/hit you're doing isn't worth the TP/hit you're feeding. Your Avatars have a lot of Attack, but they attack slowly and their base damage depends on fSTR. If you're meleeing and feeding TP just so you can keep your Avatar out (instead of doing BP and release) and it can also feed TP while contributing a mediocre amount of damage, then perhaps you should consider releasing and just contributing by feeding less TP and staying out of AoE range. Sometimes being less active is more helpful than being more active.

[Razushu]

DNC also get Accuracy Bonus III, so that's another 35 Acc difference. SMN uses a 2H weapon though, so they get 25% DEX in their favor.

If I were to argue against the feasibility of melee summoner, Accuracy would not be my argument of choice. pDIF would be. It is so beneficial to Myrkr Summoner to keep capped Accuracy that it's entirely worth using Sushi to do it, which means they can realistically cap Acc on all but Thief monsters with proper gear, merits, and Sushi.

By the time your Acc uncaps with Sushi and proper gear, your pDIF will be so horrid that the shit damage/hit you're doing isn't worth the TP/hit you're feeding. Your Avatars have a lot of Attack, but they attack slowly and their base damage depends on fSTR. If you're meleeing and feeding TP just so you can keep your Avatar out (instead of doing BP and release) and it can also feed TP while contributing a mediocre amount of damage, then perhaps you should consider releasing and just contributing by feeding less TP and staying out of AoE range. Sometimes being less active is more helpful than being more active.

BP/release isn't necessary with a halfway decent perp/refresh set

[Byrth]

BP/release isn't necessary with a halfway decent perp/refresh set

Yeah, didn't think so, but then Myrkr really gains almost nothing (just SMN DPS with very low pDIF). I always try to lean my comparisons as far towards my opponents as I can. Also, there are bound to be situations where the TP that your avatar feeds isn't worth the damage it does. BPs don't give TP, which is a point I often don't feel is emphasized enough.

[Korpg]

Don't you wish you were alive in 2006? Those guys strutted around thinking SMN missed 80% of the time.

I think only you thought that.

But then again, only you would melee as SMN, even though you died 9 times out of 10 on anything important. 7 times out of 10 on anything worthless. Point remains, you still suck.

[Korpg]

Yeah, didn't think so, but then Myrkr really gains almost nothing (just SMN DPS with very low pDIF). I always try to lean my comparisons as far towards my opponents as I can. Also, there are bound to be situations where the TP that your avatar feeds isn't worth the damage it does. BPs don't give TP, which is a point I often don't feel is emphasized enough.

You can give SMN 300 STR/DEX vs a naked WAR using H2H (no weapon) and the WAR will still beat the SMN in melee damage. Since Myrkr does 0 damage, no point in bringing up total DoT damage either.

[Dallas]

Oh good, we've moved on to the pDif defense. Before we do that, would someone mind committing to "anything that matters" outside of Abyssea that you would melee? There's some NMs that drop junk L75 gear, and there's a ton of EPs, there's some new avoidable L90+ trash, and there's Voidwatch.

Let's establish that something (anything) exists that SMN would need sushi.

[Aurara]

Byakko, and Kirin.

[Dallas]

That falls under "junk 75 drops." More specifically it falls under "Sky gear that ignored SMN." Extremely unimportant, but sure, people still lowman that stuff.

It's 2 well known fights, what accuracy is needed?

[Alhanelem]

But I do admit that DNC is like B+ when SMN is a terrible B.B isn't terrible, and staves are 2-handed, so accuracy is not as low as some people think. And if you really do need more accuracy, marinara pizza is nice since you get some attack as well.

Remember that for a long time PUPs were meleeing with C+.


Byakko, and Kirin. What summoner would want to involve himself with either of these NMs? Neither has anything of interest. (Not saying I wouldn't help a friend, of course- but barring that)


You can give SMN 300 STR/DEX vs a naked WAR using H2H (no weapon) and the WAR will still beat the SMN in melee damage. Since Myrkr does 0 damage, no point in bringing up total DoT damage either.Nonsense, and the Aftermath adds more damage than most other staff weapon skills could.

I know I keep coming back here, but I hate it. This just keeps going around in circles. Agree to bleeping disagree.

You can argue all day about how much summoner gains from meleeing. You can say the overall total isn't competitive yet, and that's fine, but mister spreadsheet has indicated that the summoner is able to inflict more damage than the avatar. That's both a good thing (because it adds damage) and a bad thing (why is the avatar so weak?). You want to say it's not good enough? That's fine. Go ahead. But meleeing is still better than not if you're able to.


Yeah, didn't think so, but then Myrkr really gains almost nothingThe point of Myrkr isn't to manage MP better than a BP/releaser. The point of Myrkr is to be able to melee and still have no trouble with MP. Myrkr far outweighs wearing a perp staff with low damage. How much more MP you have as a result is not relevant, because you don't run out either way.

[Dallas]

Let's give Kirin a chance. I've already meleed Fenrir.

[Byrth]

Oh good, we've moved on to the pDif defense. Before we do that, would someone mind committing to "anything that matters" outside of Abyssea that you would melee? There's some NMs that drop junk L75 gear, and there's a ton of EPs, there's some new avoidable L90+ trash, and there's Voidwatch.

Let's establish that something (anything) exists that SMN would need sushi.

Any T-VT Dynamis monster/force pop. Any Voidwatch NM. I'd bring a summoner to both of those events, and possibly only those events at the moment. Show me that your Summoner can melee in the two events in the game where I think it is an optimal alliance member right now.

I'd bet some pretty solid gil that you aren't capping hit rate on Dynamis NMs, and I'd bet you even more solid gil that your pDIF is utter shit on them. I know my Dancer's is for sure, and you'd have substantially less Attack than me when you have comparable Acc.

Plus, it's not a "defense," because you haven't shown anything to defend again. In fact, you haven't provided a single piece of data or example to support your statements throughout this entire thread. Everything from you would be anecdotal, but you haven't even provided any anecdotes. They're just statements you've made. Please just admit you're a troll so our curiosity can be satisfied and we can move on.

[Dallas]

Byrth, are you just listing the stuff you'd invite SMN? We know your short list.

That was not the question. Kirin works. We'll use Kirin.

[Sparthos]

Byrth, are you just listing the stuff you'd invite SMN? We know your short list.

That was not the question. Kirin works. We'll use Kirin.

Of course Kirin works, hes level 75 content.

[Alhanelem]

Of course Kirin works, hes level 75 content.
Kirin still outlevels us, not that I'm endorsing this because no summoner gives two farts about kirin.

[Greatguardian]

Oh. Okay. Summoners only have one job and only fight things that drop Summoner-related items. Gotcha.

[Alhanelem]

Oh. Okay. Summoners only have one job and only fight things that drop Summoner-related items. Gotcha.
If no one wants you there and you have no reason to be there, why be there?

On top of that, kirin is basically irrelevant. I don't really care how well a job performs at an unneeded fight.

[Greatguardian]

Again. See: "Summoners only have one job".

Most people have more than one. In a game where 90% of the strategy in any given fight is job setup, variety is good.

[Alhanelem]

Again. See: "Summoners only have one job".

Most people have more than one. In a game where 90% of the strategy in any given fight is job setup, variety is good. Irrelevant to topic at hand. And most of the jobs that are popular with people who find summoner fun aren't popular either.

On top of this, what is proven that we don't already know? What are we trying to argue? We've already established SMN doesn't do a whole lot of damage, melee or no. Unless you're still kiting kirin, you don't need pets to hit a moving monster anymore.

[Greatguardian]

I believe people were naming targets that Summoner was not capping Accuracy on, and thus most definitely not capping pDIF on.

The comeback that "Summoner doesn't need Kirin drops" is wholly irrelevant, and detracts from the very legitimate point that Summoner is not natively capping accuracy on Kirin. That's all.

[Alhanelem]

The comeback that "Summoner doesn't need Kirin drops" is wholly irrelevant,It's not a comeback. The point is the monster itself is irrelevant. Not just to summoner, but to basically everyone. I don't give two rats behinds if summoner can't cap accuracy or pDIF on it. I'm not going to be fighting it, nor is anyone else I know.


the very legitimate point that Summoner is not natively capping accuracy on Kirin.It's not a legitimate point.

For the record, Kirin is level 92. I cast doubt that summoner can't cap accuracy or pDIF.

Hypothetical scenarios using something that is not likely to take place are not effective devices to prove a point.

[Dallas]

I'll give them 2 days to figure out how much accuracy is needed. At that point, I will assume they lied for the sake of lying. I have 85 more staff skill than I did at L75. I also have a few BPs up my sleeve that didn't find use in the Abyssea scenario.

I do believe the 2-h update was when everyone started to zerg Kirin, so obviously accuracy wasn't an issue for 75 WAR then. What I "hear" them saying is that a 75 WAR can out DD a Hverg SMN, which of course is wrong.

[Greatguardian]

I'd be happier with a copy of your actual gear. You refused to give it up last time I was setting up a theoretical parse. Give me evasion/AGI stats on Kirin (Not Dallas, we all know you have absolutely no idea, but just anyone) and I can figure out how much raw acc is needed to cap.

And no one really cares what you hear. You have absolutely no reading comprehension skills.

Summary: Post your gear sets. I'll get back to you on what acc is needed when I have more information. I also never made any claim, lol "they".

[Alhanelem]

Kirin's stats were never terribly inflated over other monsters. He was simply one of the highest level mobs in the game before the level cap increase. You can probably safely use any similar level monster as a reference. At 75, the level difference penalties against kirin were massive. At 90, those penalties are minimal.

[Dallas]

Summary: Post your gear sets.

351 staff skill, I'll look up base DEX, and I'll piss you off by getting the rest of my acc from BPs.

[TybudX]

Congratulations, you pwn PvE with lots of help!

Hmm, Ballista and SMN only, eh? I think we've solved the problem...

http://wyred.nu/lolfeiwong/

[Greatguardian]

351 staff skill, I'll look up base DEX, and I'll piss you off by getting the rest of my acc from BPs.

Gear sets. Not your total DA. Or your total staff skill. Or your total Haste.

Gear. Sets.

Not what SMN can use.

What you use.

Put up or shut up.

[Dallas]

Yah, I was right, 82 dex. I'm betting capped accuracy naked with avatar buffs. You want to bring your theoretical math, bring it.

GG, you are the guy who threw around "5x" like you owned the place. You are obviously not the mathie BG was needing.

[Alhanelem]

Maybe you should stop ignoring what he asks for before you make yourself look really stupid, not that you need any help to do that.

Ordinarily I'm not fond of GG's posts. But in this case, he deserves a +1. Though I have to wonder who it is that's +1ing every one of his posts in this thread.

[Dallas]

GG should have thought about what kind of information he was going to need from me. It's to my advantage to have him sit around and wonder what a SMN might wear. 2 days for them to figure out if they lied.

[Greatguardian]

I wouldn't have a clue. I don't even have my mules active at the moment.

And he's right. I'm not anywhere near the best BG mathie. The last math class I took was diffy Q and that was over 5 years ago. Most of FFXI's math is simple algebra though, so it's not a big deal. I just don't have any sort of frame of reference for level 90-92 NM stats.

But really. Post your gear sets. You've been asked for them multiple times on multiple occasions for multiple reasons and never put up. That's never a good sign.

Edit: They? I don't even know who mentioned Kirin at this point. My only post about it was in regards to its drops being irrelevant to the conversation and an offer to math it out if given gear sets and NM stats.

The BG illuminati obviously move and think as one or some crap.

[Dallas]

You don't need gear for this. You need to know the moon phase.

[Greatguardian]

I care less about the Acc calculations than I do about seeing what the man who flings around the word "Gimp" more than any BG poster on here is actually wearing on his melee SMN.

[Dallas]

Of course that's your motivation. That's why you will have to beg someone else to find where I've posted that information. I'm not going to enable your calculator rage. Good luck finding anyone that can support the "Kirin accuracy" lie. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

[Razushu]

You don't need gear for this. You need to know the moon phase.

You only melee at full moon now?

[Razushu]

Of course that's your motivation. That's why you will have to beg someone else to find where I've posted that information. I'm not going to enable your calculator rage. Good luck finding anyone that can support the "Kirin accuracy" lie. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

You're only hurting your argument more each time you hide from these requests, do the people who share melee SMN with you a favor and go away or post your gear sets.

[TybudX]

Of course that's your motivation. That's why you will have to beg someone else to find where I've posted that information. I'm not going to enable your calculator rage. Good luck finding anyone that can support the "Kirin accuracy" lie. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

a) You are the one who brought up accuracy; everybody else was talking about pDIF. I guess it's another one of your made up situations. Perpetrating the lie, not SMNs needing accuracy. Of course a 2 hander using sushi or pizza isn't going to have accuracy problems. No, you didn't just trick BG into agreeing with you, you aren't even close to that clever. Your pDIF is still shit on anything but trash mobs.

b) You still haven't answered why you would be meleeing any mob on SMN when you can come on a job better suited to do... anything a SMN does. Your buffs are poor, your healing/support is poor, and your melee + avatar is half (or less) of what any real DD can do.

[Korpg]

I'll give them 2 days to figure out how much accuracy is needed. At that point, I will assume they lied for the sake of lying. I have 85 more staff skill than I did at L75. I also have a few BPs up my sleeve that didn't find use in the Abyssea scenario.

I do believe the 2-h update was when everyone started to zerg Kirin, so obviously accuracy wasn't an issue for 75 WAR then. What I "hear" them saying is that a 75 WAR can out DD a Hverg SMN, which of course is wrong.

You have never been in a zerg before, have you?

[Dallas]

a) You are the one who brought up accuracy; everybody else was talking about pDIF.
The assumption is that melee SMN needs sushi. I never use sushi. I need you liars to prove I need sushi, before you move on to your pDIF lies.


You only melee at full moon now?
LOL, thanks for at least knowing 1/3 your accuracy wards. There are 2 other wards out there as well. One works better at new moon. We're talking about a single mob that will be dead in a matter of minutes. Go ahead and stack your wards before hand.

One of the fun things about this thread is that all this time, the BGers have purposely been running to the furthest corners of the game to find the least SMN friendly scenarios to show off their WARs.

[Malamasala]

b) You still haven't answered why you would be meleeing any mob on SMN when you can come on a job better suited to do... anything a SMN does. Your buffs are poor, your healing/support is poor, and your melee + avatar is half (or less) of what any real DD can do.

Fun? Oh wait, this if Final Fantasy XI. We don't play this for fun, we play it so we can complain.

[Dallas]

LOL, I skim too much. Half of ANY real DD? The fail maths show "half" of a Ukon WAR with a LOT of people doing nothing but buffing. I guess you aren't a real DD unless you have that one item.

[Leonlionheart]

I guess you aren't a real DD unless you have that one item.

Well............

[Dallas]

LOL, be careful, there's a Byakko's Axe WAR here who would be real pissed at the insinuation that Ukon is the only reason WAR beats SMN unbuffed.

[Alhanelem]

//still wondering why this thread hasn't been locked yet...

[Leonlionheart]

LOL, be careful, there's a Byakko's Axe WAR here who would be real pissed at the insinuation that Ukon is the only reason WAR beats SMN unbuffed.

lol don't get me wrong, a Byakko's Axe WAR will probably still out DPS any SMN, except maybe 90 Hvergelmir SMN or 80+ Nirvana SMN, but it's not by HUGE amounts like a Widowmaker/ToM90/Warlord's Axe WAR, or GIANT amounts like a Maschu+2 or Ukon WAR.

But then, nothing comes close to a Ukon WAR.

[Coldbrand]

durhur what's ryunohige

[Malamasala]

//still wondering why this thread hasn't been locked yet...

Pretty sure that at page 30 they admins stopped reading it.

[Dallas]

lol don't get me wrong, a Byakko's Axe WAR will probably still out DPS any SMN, except maybe 90 Hvergelmir SMN or 80+ Nirvana SMN, but it's not by HUGE amounts like a Widowmaker/ToM90/Warlord's Axe WAR, or GIANT amounts like a Maschu+2 or Ukon WAR.

But then, nothing comes close to a Ukon WAR.
Are we still talking "unbuffed in Abyssea?" The "giant amounts" for Ukon is something around 25%, of which I suspect at least 10% is the impact of aftermath. The base damage for those non-Ukons look to be about 10% less than Ukon. Unless Ukko's Fury is a terrible WS (and I don't suspect it is), those weapons do not significantly outperform a Hverg SMN.

That should not be a terrible insult to WAR, since FFXIAH has only found 24 of these staves, and a Widowmaker drops off an NM.

[Leonlionheart]

Are we still talking "unbuffed in Abyssea?" The "giant amounts" for Ukon is something around 25%, of which I suspect at least 10% is the impact of aftermath. The base damage for those non-Ukons look to be about 10% less than Ukon. Unless Ukko's Fury is a terrible WS (and I don't suspect it is), those weapons do not significantly outperform a Hverg SMN.

That should not be a terrible insult to WAR, since FFXIAH has only found 24 of these staves, and a Widowmaker drops off an NM.

I still don't see you providing any substantial proof (parses, maths, etc)

[Korpg]

Are we still talking "unbuffed in Abyssea?" The "giant amounts" for Ukon is something around 25%, of which I suspect at least 10% is the impact of aftermath. The base damage for those non-Ukons look to be about 10% less than Ukon. Unless Ukko's Fury is a terrible WS (and I don't suspect it is), those weapons do not significantly outperform a Hverg SMN.

That should not be a terrible insult to WAR, since FFXIAH has only found 24 of these staves, and a Widowmaker drops off an NM.

You still have never seen a WAR in action, have you?

But then again, I doubt you seen anyone in action, which makes me wonder how you got your staff.

What did you do, buy the items from other people?

[TybudX]

LOL, I skim too much. Half of ANY real DD? The fail maths show "half" of a Ukon WAR with a LOT of people doing nothing but buffing. I guess you aren't a real DD unless you have that one item.

Yes, the maths were fail. They assumed things that made the situation highly in your favour, namely:

Predator Claws = Ukko's. It's not, it's closer to Raging Rush from a competitive weapon, like Widowmaker.
Accuracy is capped for both SMN and WAR.
SMN is using /sam to gain the most it can from Haste buffs.
SMN has equal melee damage per swing. LOL. Not only does this point ignore pDIF, it ignores the base damage of your weapon and stats. So much for The Kirin Lie™.
WAR was not using any native JAs or traits. Seriously. No Berserk, no att or crit traits, no double attack, completely ignored base stats, etc.

The comparison was literally a naked character with capped accuracy and pDIF using Ukon and Ukko's Fury as a WS vs. an impossible SMN getting ODD off it's staff and Predator Claws.

Less.
Than.
Half.

Exactly what are these miracle SMN buffs you think you are going to stack on yourself? The only super secret buff I can think of that is going to make SMN (and melee SMN) not suck is called Job Change. An issue you keep skirting... why do you show up on SMN when any other job that can do the things SMN can do (buffs, DD, healing) can do them better? You keep pretending that you haven't seen it asked.

[Korpg]

Exactly what are these miracle SMN buffs you think you are going to stack on yourself? The only super secret buff I can think of that is going to make SMN (and melee SMN) not suck is called Job Change. An issue you keep skirting... why do you show up on SMN when any other job that can do the things SMN can do (buffs, DD, healing) can do them better? You keep pretending that you haven't seen it asked.

But that is detriment to his argument!

[Razushu]

LOL, thanks for at least knowing 1/3 your accuracy wards. There are 2 other wards out there as well. One works better at new moon. We're talking about a single mob that will be dead in a matter of minutes. Go ahead and stack your wards before hand.

One of the fun things about this thread is that all this time, the BGers have purposely been running to the furthest corners of the game to find the least SMN friendly scenarios to show off their WARs.

Oh you mean Lunar Cry and Somnolence I assume? Don't forget Tail Whip too

[Dallas]

Lunar Cry and Diamond Storm. Close.

I declare the accuracy issue is over. Clearly, no one making the claim knows an evasive mob outside of Abyssea that they'd invite a WAR to attack.

We have to assume SMN melee is accurate enough to benefit more from attack food. Now, lets hear the pDIF excuse again. What can't a melee SMN damage outside of Abyssea with a 98 DMG staff and attack somewhere over 500?

[Razushu]

Lunar Cry and Diamond Storm. Close.

I declare the accuracy issue is over. Clearly, no one making the claim knows an evasive mob outside of Abyssea that they'd invite a WAR to attack.

We have to assume SMN melee is accurate enough to benefit more from attack food. Now, lets hear the pDIF excuse again. What can't a melee SMN damage outside of Abyssea with a 98 DMG staff and attack somewhere over 500?

Ah yeah forgot about that one I haven't actually used it yet(Don't like using AoEs unnecessarily).

[Dallas]

When there is one mob (Kirin), use it.

[Razushu]

When there is one mob (Kirin), use it.

obviously, Shiva was the wrong avatar to put it on though lol.

[Dallas]

Actually, don't use it. We haven't determined it's ever needed...

;)

[Razushu]

Actually, don't use it. We haven't determined it's ever needed...

;)

You know you'd help your side of the argument alot more if you just posted your gearsets and stuff don't? It's not like they're asking you for nudes.

[Cream_Soda]

Lunar Cry and Diamond Storm. Close.

I declare the accuracy issue is over. Clearly, no one making the claim knows an evasive mob outside of Abyssea that they'd invite a WAR to attack.

We have to assume SMN melee is accurate enough to benefit more from attack food. Now, lets hear the pDIF excuse again. What can't a melee SMN damage outside of Abyssea with a 98 DMG staff and attack somewhere over 500?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9C9pyaqSrE

[Byrth]

Obviously Summoner can kill Kirin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlld7K8wdoM

[Greatguardian]

Over 500 attack is with food?

Lol.

Einherjar T3 bosses, Odin, Gurfurlur and other ToAU kings, T4 ZNM, Kirin, Byakko, Any and All THF NMs, Neo Dynamis Neo NMs (the VT force pop ones), Arch Dynamis Bosses, Bahamutv2, Fomor HNM, Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden, Everything in Voidwatch.

If you do cap accuracy, which is possible on some of these, your pDif and cRatio will still be in the toilet.

Post your gear. If you want to call people Gimp Summoners, you better be prepared to prove that you're not.

Edit:
Obviously Summoner can kill Kirin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlld7K8wdoM

Holy crap the Grandia soundtrack just blew my mind. I love those games.

[Korpg]

Over 500 attack is with food?

Lol.

Einherjar T3 bosses, Odin, Gurfurlur and other ToAU kings, T4 ZNM, Kirin, Byakko, Any and All THF NMs, Neo Dynamis Neo NMs (the VT force pop ones), Arch Dynamis Bosses, Bahamutv2, Fomor HNM, Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden, Everything in Voidwatch.

Basically everything he has never fought and will never fight.




If you do cap accuracy, which is possible on some of these, your pDif and cRatio will still be in the toilet.


But for him to know what that is, it would mean he would have to do research, but he doesn't respect his jobs enough to do any research of them and what it means to be a damage dealer.


Post your gear. If you want to call people Gimp Summoners, you better be prepared to prove that you're not.

I seen his gear, it sucks. It won't do him any favors in posting it

[Leonlionheart]

Yes, the maths were fail. They assumed things that made the situation highly in your favour, namely:

Predator Claws = Ukko's. It's not, it's closer to Raging Rush from a competitive weapon, like Widowmaker.
Accuracy is capped for both SMN and WAR.
SMN is using /sam to gain the most it can from Haste buffs.
SMN has equal melee damage per swing. LOL. Not only does this point ignore pDIF, it ignores the base damage of your weapon and stats. So much for The Kirin Lie™.
WAR was not using any native JAs or traits. Seriously. No Berserk, no att or crit traits, no double attack, completely ignored base stats, etc.

The comparison was literally a naked character with capped accuracy and pDIF using Ukon and Ukko's Fury as a WS vs. an impossible SMN getting ODD off it's staff and Predator Claws.

Less.
Than.
Half.

Exactly what are these miracle SMN buffs you think you are going to stack on yourself? The only super secret buff I can think of that is going to make SMN (and melee SMN) not suck is called Job Change. An issue you keep skirting... why do you show up on SMN when any other job that can do the things SMN can do (buffs, DD, healing) can do them better? You keep pretending that you haven't seen it asked.

Quoted for truth.

[Dart]

jesus christ on a pogo stick, reading this is going to make my brain melt.

[Dallas]

And the BG angry mathie continues his rant, this time demanding I prove that a SMN sitting on his butt doing nothing is more gimp than doing anything besides nothing. What do you think this is, post #75?

[Korpg]

And the BG angry mathie continues his rant, this time demanding I prove that a SMN sitting on his butt doing nothing is more gimp than doing anything besides nothing. What do you think this is, post #75?

Dude, put up or shut up. Preferably both.

Also admit that you have no clue as how to do damage.

Because that is all you have "proven" so far.

Why do you think you are the greatest thing to happen to humanity since the big bang? Just go away, because you are not bringing anything to the conversation at all anymore, and everyone here is telling you about how much full of feces you are.

[Alhanelem]

Over 500 attack is with food? If you can't break at least 600 attack with food, then you must be wearing some kind of attack - gear or your weapon isn't fully skilled.

[Leonlionheart]

If you can't break at least 600 attack with food, then you must be wearing some kind of attack - gear or your weapon isn't fully skilled.

On SMN my attack is 390 with 321 skill.

Obviously no melee gear, but what slots other than ring actually have attack for smn anyway

inb4 fire staff

[Korpg]

On SMN my attack is 390 with 321 skill.

Obviously no melee gear, but what slots other than ring actually have attack for smn anyway

inb4 fire staff

Mine is 305 skill, 367 attack on SMN. 72 STR naked on SMN, but I don't have any STR+ gear for it.

391 attack on WAR. But then again, I got the STR to back it up. 86 STR naked on WAR. I have +37 STR gear for WAR too. Bunch of Attack+ and Double Attack+ gear too.

[Alhanelem]

On SMN my attack is 390 with 321 skill.

Obviously no melee gear, but what slots other than ring actually have attack for smn anyway

inb4 fire staff
Still not capped yet due to horrendus 2h skillup rate; but 340 skill with merits and 406 attack with no +attack whatsoever.

Base STR is 81 (merited)

[Korpg]

Still not capped yet due to horrendus 2h skillup rate; but 340 skill with merits and 406 attack with no +attack whatsoever.

Bolded: Most actual DDs don't have staff skill merits.

[Alhanelem]

Bolded: Most actual DDs don't have staff skill merits.
Most DDs DO have merits in whatever their primary weapon is.

[Korpg]

Most DDs DO have merits in whatever their primary weapon is.

But SMN's main spike damage comes from avatar, not player.

I would understand if SMN is your only job, but I'm sure you have PUP also, so you could have spent the merits on H2H, Evasion, and Guard. Since PUP is considered more of a DD than SMN.

[Alhanelem]

But SMN's main spike damage comes from avatar, not player.Even if you ignore other reasons, sometimes I'm called upon to proc red or blue (crazy as it sounds), meriting makes it as easy as possible.
I have 8 dagger 8 staff 8 hand to hand 4 evasion and 4 that I haven't bothered to spend yet because I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them. Probably scythe since I leveled DRK recently.

[Leonlionheart]

Mine is 305 skill, 367 attack on SMN. 72 STR naked on SMN, but I don't have any STR+ gear for it.

391 attack on WAR. But then again, I got the STR to back it up. 86 STR naked on WAR. I have +37 STR gear for WAR too. Bunch of Attack+ and Double Attack+ gear too.

Something is wrong with your WAR, sitting in TP gear I have: 565 Attack. FC gear: 625 attack. Berserk Down Ukko's gear: 618 Attack, Berserk Up Ukko's gear (without acutal berserk) 547 attack. without gear i figure i'm only losing about 55, which would still put me over 500 attack in tp set.

STR base 94(fully merited)

[Korpg]

Something is wrong with your WAR, sitting in TP gear I have: 565 Attack. FC gear: 625 attack. Berserk Down Ukko's gear: 618 Attack, Berserk Up Ukko's gear (without acutal berserk) 547 attack. without gear i figure i'm only losing about 55, which would still put me over 500 attack in tp set.

STR base 94(fully merited)

1) I was talking about WAR staff.
2) I don't have STR merited, I have INT merited for BLM
3) I was naked, you even quoted that
4) I was comparing my staff skill with yours vs Dallas staff set. I even said naked SMN has XX attack and XX STR.

Edit: If you want to know, I'm sitting on 562 attack TP on my Bonesplitter (Trial 1354) atm. I have a Widowmaker, but am working on my Ukon. My TP has 16% DA, STR+30, Att+73, STP+13%, Acc+42, DEX+19, and Haste +27% (I know, overkill, but 27% in 4 slots I'll take than 23% in 5 slots).

WS: STR+42, Att+105, Acc+39, DEX+29, and whatever both Snow Gorget and Belt adds to Att/Acc

That way, Dallas can't call my gearset gimp, for whatever reason.

[Dallas]

If you can't break at least 600 attack with food, then you must be wearing some kind of attack - gear or your weapon isn't fully skilled.

So, have you thrown this out yet? The topic is "outside of Abyssea."


But SMN's main spike damage comes from avatar, not player.

SMN: the only job where players are too incompetent to realize that spike damage < total damage.

[Korpg]

SMN: the only job where players are too incompetent to realize that spike damage < total damage.

So says a SMN who claims to out damage an Ukon WAR who's WS does a total of 0 damage each time.

[Leonlionheart]

1) I was talking about WAR staff.
2) I don't have STR merited, I have INT merited for BLM
3) I was naked, you even quoted that
4) I was comparing my staff skill with yours vs Dallas staff set. I even said naked SMN has XX attack and XX STR.

Edit: If you want to know, I'm sitting on 562 attack TP on my Bonesplitter (Trial 1354) atm. I have a Widowmaker, but am working on my Ukon. My TP has 16% DA, STR+30, Att+73, STP+13%, Acc+42, DEX+19, and Haste +27% (I know, overkill, but 27% in 4 slots I'll take than 23% in 5 slots).

WS: STR+42, Att+105, Acc+39, DEX+29, and whatever both Snow Gorget and Belt adds to Att/Acc

That way, Dallas can't call my gearset gimp, for whatever reason.

O, that makes more sense.


SMN: the only job where players are too incompetent to realize that spike damage < total damage.

lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

[Sparthos]

That way, Dallas can't call my gearset gimp, for whatever reason.

AFAIK, no SMN promoting melee has posted a TP setup.

Edit: Or any results of a parse on targets outside Abyssea designed for 90.

[Korpg]

I'll post my SMN gear if he does.

[Cream_Soda]

so you could have spent the merits on H2H, Evasion, and Guard.

There's no reason to spend merits on guard at all, especially if you have a weapon you could put those merits into.

That aside, I agree with your point (as far as staff being a low priority if you have jobs other than smn)

[Korpg]

There's no reason to spend merits on guard at all, especially if you have a weapon you could put those merits into.

That aside, I agree with your point (as far as staff being a low priority if you have jobs other than smn)

Well, I was naming what else he could have put those merits on.

[Byrth]

Best SMN TP set?: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/220183

Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

[Alhanelem]

So says a SMN who claims to out damage an Ukon WAR who's WS does a total of 0 damage each time.
Can you stop saying that? yes, it's not big damage, but the weaponskill does add damage form the aftermath.

Seriously: why are we arguing about all the particulars of this anyway? Just let people do what they want to do and stop ragging on them for it. Stop using Dallas as a source of entertainment and find something better to do.

If you're desperately seeking some way to do more damage than you're normally capable of on summoner, this is a way to do that. No (sane) person is arguing that this is a substitute for SE making the job better, another job that can do more damage anyway, or anything else. You're not going to win any epeen contests. You're not going to suddenly be the best at anything so just let it #&$%ing rest. WE KNOW IT ALREADY.


Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway. You do have a WS set for it: Whatever has the most MP in any given slot. The WS mod is max MP. Higher max MP = more total MP gained.

Stupid sidenote: You could sub DRG and use that SJ earring to cap haste. (So, not true that SMN can't cap haste after all- just at a silly cost)

[Byrth]

So then we agree that the Empyrean, Mythic, and Relic staves could use a re-work? >.>


Edit: Well yeah, as far as the WS set. But it doesn't affect your damage output as long as we're assuming you aren't limited by MP anyway. Realistically, in any situation where you're capable of responsibly meleeing on Summoner, you have so much support that you probably don't need to use the WS anyway.

I killed Cerb with 3 other people yesterday for the title. I came out on SMN/WHM with 4x AF3+2 and no staff and was getting back 7MP/tick with Garuda out.

[Alhanelem]

So then we agree that the Empyrean, Mythic, and Relic staves could use a re-work? >.>No, we don't agree.
Mythic is great, I don't know why you're listing that here. But the mythics are also job specific and every job has one, specifically tailored to that job. In the case of these weapons, SMN and BLM do not want even remotely the same thing in a staff, but these items are wearable by both (and sch in the empy staff).

Empy and relic are best in class for their purpose. Maybe you don't like that purpose and you think it's pointless, and some people may agree with that.

Every weapon class has a few weapons that are out of charateristic. It's fine that these two weapons are those weapons. The relic and empy weapons, are, after all, WEAPONS. not charms or trinkets. If you don't like them, get some other staff to hold. There is nothing wrong with making a weapon that only a few people want. Not everyone is going to get a relic/mythic/empy weapon.


probably don't need to use the WS anyway.The aftermath damage alone is likely more than the next best WS, retribution, unless you get unlucky with it procing.

[Korpg]

If you're desperately seeking some way to do more damage than you're normally capable of on summoner, this is a way to do that. No (sane) person is arguing that this is a substitute for SE making the job better, another job that can do more damage anyway, or anything else.


I think the question is: Is it worth the increased risk of death to do a minimal addition to overall damage?

That was the issue with Dallas over justification with TP feed.

[Alhanelem]

I think the question is: Is it worth the increased risk of death to do a minimal addition to overall damage?Thing is, it's not a minimal addition, relative to what you could have done before. Mr. Spreadsheet said like 30 pages ago that the player is doing more damage than the summon (which, as an aside, is a serious indicator of a problem with the avatar's BP capabilities)

The risk of death is a problem that affects anyone else who melees. Of course, I do have the galka HP advantage, and it's much more dangerous for the taru SMN.

[Korpg]

Best SMN TP set?: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/220183

Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

Haste+22%
Acc+24
Att+28

Is that really the best TP set for SMN?

[Alhanelem]

I already pointed out you could sub DRG and cap haste (and also get acc bonus trait). In fact, that earring gives enough haste that you could replace one of those 1% haste items with something else.

I'm thinking you might also be able to do better with some augmented items.

[Korpg]

Thing is, it's not a minimal addition, relative to what you could have done before. Mr. Spreadsheet said like 30 pages ago that the player is doing more damage than the summon (which, as an aside, is a serious indicator of a problem with the avatar's BP capabilities)

The risk of death is a problem that affects anyone else who melees. Of course, I do have the galka HP advantage, and it's much more dangerous for the taru SMN.

Inside Abyssea, the overall risk is limited by the increased player HP and overall damage (higher STR, higher DEX, higher DA rate, etc) plus, the avatar can use the atmas also.

Outside Abyssea, kindof can't melee anything worthwhile, will wiff too much and can't keep avatar out for long. Also, too many things do over 1k damage to players in AoE range.

[Alhanelem]

Outside Abyssea, kindof can't melee anything worthwhile, will wiff too much and can't keep avatar out for longNot really true at all, but whatever. Even if you wiff 50% you can still keep avatar out forever- If you're not using a max TP set, you won't be losing as much MP. If you are using a max TP set, you're not going to wiff that much.

Anything you can't melee without a high risk of death (and the only risk is highly damaging AoEs- your avatar will always have hate if you're not stupid) you can still kill the old fashioned way. Which is why I treat this as an extension of SMN's capabilities, not a used-all-the-time continuous upgrade.

[Korpg]

Not really true at all, but whatever. Even if you wiff 50% you can still keep avatar out forever- If you're not using a max TP set, you won't be losing as much MP. If you are using a max TP set, you're not going to wiff that much.

I don't know, I'm not totally convinced. I mean, on anything important, it is kindof tough to cap accuracy for even for a DD,maybe not so much now since the level gap has lowered and people have more combat skills to compensate, but there is still a big difference between A+ skill and B skill.

The "ideal" TP set for SMN is still lower than an A- naked skill, and you still need accuracy with A- skill (including food).

[Alhanelem]

and you still need accuracy with A- skillIf you're fighting THF or NIN mobs, yes. Most other mobs, no you don't need much if any accuracy.

People thought the distance between each skill rank was going to widen, and SE ended up keeping them parallel.

I'll be blunt and honest; I don't care if you don't buy what I'm doing. I've been making use of it for a while now, meleeing when I feel I can do it without dying, and not meleeing when I don't. It helps me whenever I can take advantage of it. When I can't, its just normal SMN for the win. Why can't you just accept that and move on?

[Sparthos]

The Archon Cape would only work in Dynamis/weather support, Bellicose Mantle (att+6) outside?

[Alhanelem]

The Archon Cape would only work in Dynamis/weather support, Bellicose Mantle (att+6) outside?
I was thinking about that too. and before the relic armor came out for The New Jobs, bellicose was what PUP was stuck with :p

[Sparthos]

Funny the Zilant Ring would be the hardest thing to get in that ideal TP setup by a wide margin.

Byrth gave me a funny though, putting it down. :D

[Byrth]

Haste+22%
Acc+24
Att+28

Is that really the best TP set for SMN?

It's the best that I can find. The melee options SMN gets are pitiful.

Also, Subbing Dragoon isn't really an option. Hasso is 10% Haste, 5?STR, and 10 Acc, while /DRG is 5% Haste and 10 Acc. You end up with worse stats when you sub Dragoon, even if it lets you cap gear Haste.

I didn't notice the weather latent on the cape. You could switch it to Aesir Mantle, I guess. Also, Sword Strap is probably better than Pole for Summoner.

[Leonlionheart]

I think it's worth mentioning how difficult it is to get nashira/ninurta's sash now days.

The only people doing Ultima (which iirc takes minimum of 2 weeks to solo the popset) are doing it for atma probably, so very few.

Ninurta's Sash is AV, which is much more possible, but still hard to some extent (finding people who are actually interested in 1 piece of gear that's actually good and 2 pieces which are completely niche, not 100%, and needs new popsets everytime).

If you have Emp staff, you are probably a product of Abyssea (most of your gear anyways) so I don't see many players getting that setup ever. I'd put money on the fact that Dallas has nothing close to that.

Edit: Zilant ring is also next to impossible, but I assume that +6 DEX aug'd with attack+3~5 would suffice.

[Cream_Soda]

I already pointed out you could sub DRG and cap haste (and also get acc bonus trait). In fact, that earring gives enough haste that you could replace one of those 1% haste items with something else.

I'm thinking you might also be able to do better with some augmented items.
Why on earth would you sub drg?

Well, at least it shows how versed you are in the art of melee

Edit: Beaten

[Dallas]

Best SMN TP set?: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/220183

Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

Add-on pants can be +7 accuracy, 3% Haste. You could have potentially constructed 80% of this set by reading the melee WHM thread on BG. Congratulations on taking the few minutes I take every update to make sure I stay at the top of my very limited selection of game.

Ninurta's is unrealistic, but the same haste can be achieved with Tern's set, at the expense of a few accuracy. I'm missing the Nash feet.

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at. I've permanently replaced everything but Haste gear with -enmity gear until SE fixes avatars to generate more hate than a competent melee SMN generates. My campaign to fix SMN is no business of yours though, so keep walking.



You do have a WS set for it: Whatever has the most MP in any given slot. The WS mod is max MP. Higher max MP = more total MP gained.


Absolutely correct, but no one seems to care about mp here.

[Dallas]

Oh, and psst, Aesir also comes in Mantle form. There's also a thing known as Peacock Charm.

[Alhanelem]

Why on earth would you sub drg?

Well, at least it shows how versed you are in the art of melee

Edit: Beaten
I didn't say I would sub DRG. I was only pointing out the fact that you technically can cap haste.


Well, at least it shows how versed you are in the art of meleeIt shows nothing. I'm well versed in the art of melee. and again, I didn't say I would use it (and my DRG is like level 10)

[Cream_Soda]

I didn't say I would sub DRG. I was only pointing out the fact that you technically can cap haste.

It shows nothing. I'm well versed in the art of melee. and again, I didn't say I would use it (and my DRG is like level 10)
If it's not something you'd do, what's the point in even mentioning it. I don't see why anyone would mention something that's nowhere near viable as their argument for "oh hey we can cap haste.... but it's under conditions you shouldn't be doing". Either straw manning or just like to argue over nothing, or possibly both.


There's also a thing known as Peacock Charm.
Since when did 4 acc become better than 5% critical hit rate?

[Byrth]

Add-on pants can be +7 accuracy, 3% Haste. You could have potentially constructed 80% of this set by reading the melee WHM thread on BG. Congratulations on taking the few minutes I take every update to make sure I stay at the top of my very limited selection of game.

Ninurta's is unrealistic, but the same haste can be achieved with Tern's set, at the expense of a few accuracy. I'm missing the Nash feet.

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at. I've permanently replaced everything but Haste gear with -enmity gear until SE fixes avatars to generate more hate than a competent melee SMN generates. My campaign to fix SMN is no business of yours though, so keep walking.

I constructed 100% of the set by going to ffxiah and using Advanced Search with "SMN" specified. Haha, you probably wish that you had half the options WHM/NIN has for gear.

No one does consider MP here, because we're assuming (in your favor) that it's a non-issue. You're the job that relies on MP for damage, not your competitors.

Augmented ASA pants are an improvement. Peacock Charm is worse than Ziel Necklace, and they're both worse for DDing than Rancor Collar as long as you don't need the extra Acc (another assumption in your favor). I missed the latent on Acheron's Cape, but noted in my post after that that Aesir Mantle was your second best bet.

Regardless, those are some pretty freaking pitiful gear options.

[Razushu]

Add-on pants can be +7 accuracy, 3% Haste. You could have potentially constructed 80% of this set by reading the melee WHM thread on BG. Congratulations on taking the few minutes I take every update to make sure I stay at the top of my very limited selection of game.

Ninurta's is unrealistic, but the same haste can be achieved with Tern's set, at the expense of a few accuracy. I'm missing the Nash feet.

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at. I've permanently replaced everything but Haste gear with -enmity gear until SE fixes avatars to generate more hate than a competent melee SMN generates. My campaign to fix SMN is no business of yours though, so keep walking.



Absolutely correct, but no one seems to care about mp here.

Maybe it kills your SMN, but anything that SMN solos shouldn't be melee'd or even have you in range. If you need one recast that would probably be the end of the fight

[Korpg]

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at.

Good, now you admitted that your setup destroys the only thing SMN is good at. Now, lets see if you can realize what you don't add to the parties you are supposedly in.

[Dallas]

Since when did 4 acc become better than 5% critical hit rate?

Good question. Since when did you guys stop crying about being in AOE range with a mage? I simply assumed that you guys are too weak to handle +10% pdt. It's fair, it only took 1100 posts to even consider gearing for damage. NONE of you have capped staff skill it seems.


Good, now you admitted that your setup destroys the only thing SMN is good at. Now, lets see if you can realize what you don't add to the parties you are supposedly in.
I've broken the job at the top end. Of course, if you play at the bottom end, you will never see your pet lose hate to you. You know, I could do jack as well, and spend 3x as long killing stuff too. No telling what you need to waste your gear on.

[Dallas]

Hey BG, let's see if you'll do that for us: If SMN aren't meant to DD, heal, buff, and only should be used for 2-3 fights, show us what the best summoners should be wearing.

LOL

[Byrth]

NONE of you have capped staff skill it seems.

I do, just because I like blue skills. Your position is borderline retarded, which you seem to be realizing in the last few pages.

[Korpg]

I've broken the job at the top end. Of course, if you play at the bottom end, you will never see your pet lose hate to you. You know, I could do jack as well, and spend 3x as long killing stuff too. No telling what you need to waste your gear on.

When you actually arrive at the top end, let us know, ok? By the looks of it, you have a long way to go yet.

Better spend long killing stuff than having to zombie it.

[Sparthos]

Hey isn't tomorrow when people are forced to link a character to their SE forum account?

Can't wait till the melee SMN god links his mule instead of his main to avoid being found out.

Oh and before someone accuses me of using the same tactic, I openly welcome individuals to pick my gear choices apart for all the classes I play (cept PUP, I locked that class in the basement) and call me out on bad choices.

If I had a melee SMN, you bet id be posting the setup here and looking for criticisms.

[Dallas]

I do, just because I like blue skills. Your position is borderline retarded, which you seem to be realizing in the last few pages.

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

[Korpg]

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

Discover Ducal Guard first, then talk. SMN's only major problem right now is Blood Pact timers, fixing that will enable SMNs to be able to compete with actual DDs (compete, not beat) and fixing BP timers will make you worse off because you aren't able to keep up with the mp cost for additional BPs. How often are you less than 50% MP? Much more often than I am I am 100% sure of.

[Dallas]

You really think doubling BP damage will get you from 100-150 damage to 1000 damage? Who cares if I drop under 50% EDIT (MP), I get 1500mp per Myrkr.

[Korpg]

I thought you didn't accept the BG math.

Also, I said 50% MP, not 50% damage. Learn to read.

[Dallas]

I thought you DID believe it.

[Korpg]

I accept it because it can be redone.

When somebody presents information to you in the form of math, and you can redo the math yourself, that means that you can accept their conclusions.

[Dallas]

I did redo the math. I redistributed the damage associated with the 3 mandatory buff jobs back to the buff jobs. Counting party contribution, melee SMN falls from 25% under WAR (unbuffeed) to 33% under WAR (buffed). That is an acceptable level, as I also showed that non-emp GA are much worse than 25% under Ukon.

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.

Doubling BP speed would be awesome for me, not so much for you.

[Korpg]

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.


Somehow, I question your ability to add.

[Dallas]

2% is calculated via division. I thought you'd be able to figure that out.

[Korpg]

I'm just wondering how a weapon be the lowest rating be the top 2% in your mind.

[Razushu]

I did redo the math. I redistributed the damage associated with the 3 mandatory buff jobs back to the buff jobs. Counting party contribution, melee SMN falls from 25% under WAR (unbuffeed) to 33% under WAR (buffed). That is an acceptable level, as I also showed that non-emp GA are much worse than 25% under Ukon.

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.

Except the top 2% is every other job with an empyrean in this case and they all place higher than SMN i'm willing to wager.


Doubling BP speed would be awesome for me, not so much for you.

Doubling BP speed is great for everyone, you're living in a dream world if you think you're magically the only person with unlimited MP.

[Korpg]

Except the top 2% is every other job with an empyrean in this case and they all place higher than SMN i'm willing to wager.

No, too many weapons destroys a Hverg SMN as is. Even with the ODD proc too many jobs can do a lot more damage a lot faster. Not including WSs.

[Razushu]

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

Good God the day SE listens to someone like you is probably the day that heralds the end of FFXI.

[Greatguardian]

I have like 6 pages to catch up on so bear with me.

1) I really wish people would stop throwing around my spreadsheet numbers as if Summoner Melee actually does more damage than the Avatar when you're not getting what these very same MereeSMNs have called "God-mode buffs that no one realistically gets". When you toss out Red Curry Buns, Haste Samba, Marches, and a perfect TP set, your Garuda is stomping the hell out of you.

2) I laughed at 500 attack and the comeback was "Hey guys I said OUTSIDE of Abyssea okay?". 500 Attack including food is absolutely pathetic even outside Abyssea. That was pretty funny.

3) Dallas now claims to have made / be making significant contributions to the Summoner class? When did this happen? All I've seen from him is theorycrafting with absolutely no justification, either in the form of theoretical math, or parses, or gear sets, or anything beyond "I do it and it's good and you're all gimp for not doing it". Post some specifics that you didn't make up on the fly, and that other people can replicate.

4) Hvergelmir SMN is absolutely not a stronger DD than good, non-EMP "normal DD"s. You're delusional. Though, comparing your absolute best to the world's absolute worst is a tried and proven strategy for people who suck too much to handle a real test. I believe it was Galka who mentioned being able to outparse a full perle gimp Dark Knight in Abyssea earlier in the thread. That's just not pretty.

5) This thread is open because no one wants to read this crapfest. I'm sure it'll meet a swift lock whenever someone gets around to reporting some personal attacks or something. If someone's not interested in participating, though, they're welcome to just stop posting in this thread.

[Alhanelem]

4) Hvergelmir SMN is absolutely not a stronger DD than good, non-EMPI fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN. There is of course a price for any extra damage, and that price is some amount of risk, depending on your targets. If you can manage that risk, then you can make use of it to speed up soloing and some not-too-difficult NMs. Most SMNs I know soloing trash mobs (e.g. normal mobs conning a low T or less) will melee because they know they can do it safely against an avatar that's just used a strong blood pact. They don't normally do it in a group setting, but it is worthwhile when soloing normal stuff.

Nobody here thinks it allows you to be better than any other DD, because we know it doesn't and the math shows it doesn't; unless of course your name is Dallas.


500 Attack including food is absolutely pathetic even outside Abyssea. That was pretty funny. Completely agreed on the statement, but using attack food and having capped skill you should be doing better than that- like 550-600 at least. You can go a little higher with Ifrit, outside of abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

I fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN. There is of course a price for any extra damage, and that price is some amount of risk, depending on your targets. If you can manage that risk, then you can make use of it to speed up soloing and some not-too-difficult NMs. Most SMNs I know soloing trash mobs (e.g. normal mobs conning a low T or less) will melee because they know they can do it safely against an avatar that's just used a strong blood pact. They don't normally do it in a group setting, but it is worthwhile when soloing normal stuff.

Nobody here thinks it allows you to be better than any other DD, because we know it doesn't and the math shows it doesn't; unless of course your name is Dallas.

Can agree 100% with this.

Melee'ing is definitely situational, taking all other jobs out of the equation and looking at Summoner alone. There are definitely benefits to sitting back and using perp staves on certain things, and there are plenty of "certain things" this fits with. Having both options is always better than just having one though.

[Alhanelem]

One thing people need to remember is all of the relic and empyrean weapons are designed to be swung. There is simply one for each weapon type and the jobs are assigned to the weapons based on which weapon is "primary" to those jobs. None of these weapons specifically does anything special for a given job (e.g. enhances some ability or spell of that job); The Mythic weapons were the weapons built with this in mind. You do not get a relic or mythic weapon unless you are going to use it to whack things, no matter which job you are. White mages get damage clubs, even though most of them use a staff most of the time; these clubs are built to be swung (except the mythic club which is awesome for normal WHM activities). Other mages get damage staves. Other jobs get damage <whatevers>. BLU gets a damage sword. I realize that for some of these jobs, most people do not usually swing their weapons. But they can if they really feel like it. These weapons are for those people, and have utility to those people. They do not have utility to everyone, and in fact only a few people. In my personal, humble opinion, this is fine, as long as it's useful to somebody for some reason. Finally, the relic/empyrean weapons are centered around a new weapon skill. You don't use a weapon skill if you don't melee, so I don't know why anyone who doesn't melee at all even cares about this. There is already an ultimate weapon that better suits them: The mythic weapon.

TL:DR; all the relic/emp weapons are built as devices to hit things with, regardless of job; If for any reason in the world you want to hit something with a weapon on your SMN, SCH, or BLM, these are the weapons to do it with. If you want a weapon that enhances the spells/abilities/traits of your job, then the mythic weapon is what you want. If you want to do the best possible damage in the cases where you swing your weapon, even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

---------------

The mythic weapons specifically enhance abilities/spells/traits of jobs. These should be made less difficult to obtain, then people will realize there is a staff that fits their needs, they can then ignore/forget the relic/empyrean weapons.

[Korpg]

5) This thread is open because no one wants to read this crapfest. I'm sure it'll meet a swift lock whenever someone gets around to reporting some personal attacks or something. If someone's not interested in participating, though, they're welcome to just stop posting in this thread.

I only really post to point out Dallas's flaws, still hoping beyond hope that he would finally realize them.

That and to have him respond to make a fool out of himself.

[Alhanelem]

I only really post to point out Dallas's flaws, still hoping beyond hope that he would finally realize them.

That and to have him respond to make a fool out of himself.
I'm reasonably confident he's just doing stuff like this on purpose. You're not going to make him realize anything, because he's here for entertainment purposes.

[Korpg]

I'm reasonably confident he's just doing stuff like this on purpose. You're not going to make him realize anything, because he's here for entertainment purposes.

Yeah, but without a need for him to reply, he wouldn't....I don't think....

[Sparthos]

TL:DR; all the relic/emp weapons are built as devices to hit things with, regardless of job; If for any reason in the world you want to hit something with a weapon on your SMN, SCH, or BLM, these are the weapons to do it with. If you want a weapon that enhances the spells/abilities/traits of your job, then the mythic weapon is what you want. If you want to do the best possible damage in the cases where you swing your weapon, even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

The concept of Relic weapons were to be the ultimate weapon for your class. This was not only from a player perspective but also from a storyline one. How exactly is a staff with no relevant BLM stats other than being a really pretty weapon considered ultimate? Because you can swing slightly better than the guy without the ultimate weapon?

Why aren't the melee Relics mage oriented then? Just in case that WAR wants to sub /WHM and backup heal? You never know.

For a long time SE stated they'd never make anything more powerful than relics because they represented the uppermost echelon of weaponry. When the mage weapons were getting smoked by craftable lvl 51s, the base knew that something was wrong.

What the relic weapons did show is how disconnected SE was from the base upon the creation of these weapons. It isn't like Mjollnir has relevant WHM utility in addition to being the ultimate club. It's just a vanilla club with an inferior weaponskill to the easily acquired Hexa Strike. Developer laziness for failing to adapt the weapon to the overarching playstyle of mages.

Mythics? They might as well be a myth with the numerous layers required to obtain one. Most of the layers being extinct content no one dare touch because Abyssea has thoroughly obliterated it. To top off the compacted crap, you still need 30k Alexandrite that as of now SE claims they aren't going to touch.

[Alhanelem]

The concept of Relic weapons were to be the ultimate weapon for your class.Wrong. They were designed to be the ultimate damage-dealing weapon of their weapon type.


How exactly is a staff with no relevant BLM stats other than being a really pretty weapon considered ultimate?Its as ultimate as a staff can get if you want to swing one.

You're missing the point. None, and I repeat NONE, of the relic or empyrean weapons specifically enhance any specific ability of any job. They coincidentally synergize with jobs who primairly deal damage, but they still don't modify any of that job's abilities like an empyrean weapon does.

The Mythic weapons are the weapons built to do what you describe. There is precisely one for every job, and all of them boost some ability, trait or stat that the specific job values. The Relic and Empyrean weapons are NOT job exclusive (The ones that are, are only job exclusive because only that job is skilled in the weapon).

I know the mythics are made out of unobtainium. That's beside the point. They're still the weapons that serve the purpose you envision, not the relics and emps. Those weapons are built to be the best attacking weapons of that weapon type. Not the ultimate <insert job here> weapon.

again: The relic and emp weapons are the best WEAPONs, not the best stat boosters/ability enhancers. Whether you like it or not, the relic and empyrean staves are essentially the only good weapons of their type, barring a few of the other magian weapons; this should not be taken away from those who want it, and rather they should do another set of "ultimate weapons" that are more like the Mythics but not made out of unobtainium.

How would you like it if something you worked hard for, for a reason, was suddenly transformed into something that served a completely different purpose than what you originally obtained it for?

[Cream_Soda]

even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

Not alllllways the case. There was a time where standard weapons would outperform particular relics (and mythics; also can think of a few examples where that is still the case). Emps on the other hand, I can't think of any examples.

[Byrth]

Well, Ryunohige curb-stomps Rhongo. OAT Polearm may curb-stomp Rhongo outside Abyssea too, idk.

Scythe also sucks pretty badly. I'd be unsurprised if OAT is better outside Abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

Not alllllways the case. There was a time where standard weapons would outperform particular relics (and mythics; also can think of a few examples where that is still the case). Emps on the other hand, I can't think of any examples.

Er, pretty much this. With the advent of Empyreans, most people have forgotten than the majority of Relics were either complete trash or were within 1-2% of AH-able/Easily obtained alternatives to begin with.

It's why all the "Fix Relics" threads tend to just not make any sense to me. I mean, sure, Relics are "supposed" to be ultimate weapons. But who actually made one under the impression that it would absolutely change the game for them? There are maybe like 2 actual weapons that do that (Amanomurakumo, Apocalypse). Gjallarhorn was the only real game-breaking Relic. Even Aegis was woefully overestimated due to placebo error (Did not have enhanced block rate or block rate cap, only really served as a higher Def shield and Inventory+5-7 on MDT armor).

Spharai was only ever barely ahead of Destroyers. Excalibur was trash unless you actually used Turtle PLDs on things. Guttler was trash. Claustrum was trash. Mjollnir was trash for all intents and purposes outside of dicking around solo. Bravura was "the best", but never by much and Metatron was always crap. Ragnarok was trash. Kikoku was trash. Gungnir was trash. Mandau was decent. Not game-breaking, but it was a solid improvement, I'll give it that.

So you have a total of 3 relic weapons and 1 utility relic that didn't suck? Pretty awesome ultimate weapons right there.

Mythics are utility-weapons, and some of them are pretty badass.

Empyreans are what Relics should have been years ago.

Edit: Forgot Bow/Gun. Those were actually pretty decent, but mainly for their Enmity reducing WS properties rather than by any merit of the weapons themselves.

[Sparthos]

Wrong. They were designed to be the ultimate damage-dealing weapon of their weapon type.

Except all the relics aren't designed to damage?

@75
Amanomurakumo = Ultimate GKT.
Yoichinoyumi = Ultimate Bow.
Aegis = Ultimate Shield
Gjallahorn = Ultimate Horn.

What do these four items have in common? They represented the upper echelon of gear for the classes that could use them. The GKT made SAM do it's job better, Bow gave RNG the ability to better control hate through a weaponskill, Aegis made PLD a harder target to kill and GHorn made BRD songs more effective.

The weapons were designed to be the best weapon for the slot up until SE changed gears with Abyssea. SE had a vision and it failed utterly with mage relics.



Its as ultimate as a staff can get if you want to swing one.

Devs designed the mage classes, know the gear/skill limitations set that make it impractical to melee on anything worthwhile (worse when these weapons were released) and still decided to release ultimate mage weapons designed to be used in melee combat.

Really shows you how clueless the devs were on this front.


You're missing the point. None, and I repeat NONE, of the relic or empyrean weapons specifically enhance any specific ability of any job. They coincidentally synergize with jobs who primairly deal damage, but they still don't modify any of that job's abilities like an empyrean weapon does.

The RNG relics help me control hate better.
The PLD shield helps me stay alive longer.
The BRD horn helps make my songs more potent.
The scythe gives DRK survival options otherwise non-existant.



How would you like it if something you worked hard for, for a reason, was suddenly transformed into something that served a completely different purpose than what you originally obtained it for?

Like I said before, if the relic Staff had the current stats plus a unique spell or something like 5mp/tic when equipped it'd at the least be useful for something other than melee.

It is clear that SE simply didn't want to bother taking the extra step to make the mage weapons mage-oriented so they simply lazily slapped acc/att on the weapons and called it a day.

[Leonlionheart]

Except all the relics aren't designed to damage?

@75
Amanomurakumo = Ultimate GKT.


The difference between Amano and Hagun at 75 was incredibly minimal, Hagun was just amazing.

Between the 2hand update and the SAM nerf(though not nerfed enough) Hagun pulled ahead iirc

[Sparthos]

The difference between Amano and Hagun at 75 was incredibly minimal, Hagun was just amazing.

Between the 2hand update and the SAM nerf(though not nerfed enough) Hagun pulled ahead iirc

At inception, the relic weapons were designed to be the best items for the classes that could use them. For years we got excuses from the developers that they had to tirelessly work to not create weapons more powerful than these weapons for the sake of balance.

When Amano was created, it was the best GKT in the game. When Claustrum was created, it was immediately inferior to an AH option in any condition that did not ask the BLM or SMN to melee.

Big difference.

Is it that difficult to realize when you give a class C rank melee skills, A rank magic skills and little to no melee options that the job is going backline? Mythics aside, the inequality between melee relics and mage relics is simply astounding. SE seems to be the only group that fails to understand this.

Melee relics allow you to play the class as designed while mage relics force you to do something against the mechanics of the game in order for weapon to function. It's just sloppy design at best and sheer disconnection from the base at worst.

[Alhanelem]

Except all the relics aren't designed to damage?Duh? this is a specific reference to relic WEAPONS? not relic SHIELDS or relic INSTRUMENTs? PLD and BRD, respectively, both have relic and empyrean WEAPONS, in addition to those other things.


SE had a vision and it failed utterly with mage relics. The only visions for the relic weapons and empy weapons were:
1) special exclusive weapon skills
2) strongest damage-dealing weapon of that weapon-class.

It didn't necessairly succeed on #2 for all weapons, but you can tell thats what the intention was.


Devs designed the mage classes, know the gear/skill limitations set that make it impractical to melee on anything worthwhile (worse when these weapons were released) and still decided to release ultimate mage weapons designed to be used in melee combat.They also release ultimate mage weapons that were designed to enhance abilities instead. These are called the mythic weapons. If you want an ultimate weapon slot item that does that kind of thing, get a mythic. Nothing is stopping you besides the difficulty.

I don't really have a problem with ADDITIONAL stats, and it's entirely possible that level 95 and 99 tiers will add special stats (though i doubt it, honestly). But I DO have a problem with going for a weapon because of the effects it has now, and then them transforming it into something totally different. Even if I want the resulting product, that doesn't mean I don't still want the thing I had before, because they have two completely different purposes.

There is NOTHING WRONG with having two effing damage-oriented staff-class weapons in the game. They will undoubtedly add another superweapon set in the future, and it will probably be ability-centric instead of weapon centric.


It is clear that SE simply didn't want to bother taking the extra step to make the mage weapons mage-oriented so they simply lazily slapped acc/att on the weapons and called it a day. It's not about laziness. Frankly, I think DDs would feel cheated if we got both the exclusive WS that every other empy weapon has, and then added something more on top of that (new spell, more stats, whatever) without any of the others getting that kind of a buff. But if you just added something like this to all the weapons, on the other hand, then some of the DD weapons would be too ridiculously good and the staves would still be behind the other weapons in functionality, effectively.

There is no reasonable, fair solution to this other than add additional features to all weapons in future trials.


The RNG relics help me control hate better.
The PLD shield helps me stay alive longer.
The BRD horn helps make my songs more potent.
The scythe gives DRK survival options otherwise non-existant.BRD: Not a weapon. Talk about the relic dagger instead. This is an apples to oranges comparison.
PLD: Not a weapon. Talk about the relic Sword or Great Sword instead. This is an apples to oranges comparison.
DRK: You got me there, but this is no longer an effect that's exclusive to DRK. Sanguine Blade would like a word with you, and that's not even a relic WS.
RNG relic doesn't help you control hate better; if you're talking about the aftermath, then, well, Gate of Tartarus helps you get MP back better. So what? All of the relic WS have an aftermath or effect that synergizes with the job.

[Greatguardian]

Uh, Namas Arrow and Coronach are notoriously "Hate-free" WS. You control hate by being able to spam the hell out of those WS without being in danger of having your face handed to you like every other RNG in the game does.

Wildfire is the same way.

[Alhanelem]

Ah, OK. well Every relic WS has some kind of special effect, either as the aftermath or built into the WS. The point is, they don't directly enhance any other ability or trait like the Mythic weapons do, and none of them have job-specific effects, other than certain weapons only being usable by one job (while others are usable by more than one).

As I've said before, I'd be all in favor of adding extra stats on 95/99 trials. But they can't really be job-specific because the weapons are not job specific. There is one weapon for each weapon class, not for each job.

[Byrth]

I don't know, if I was going to remake the relic weapons I think I'd . . . write a thread about it (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3658-Relic-Adjustments-The-balancing-act). If I think "mage relic," the Claustrum I describe is what I'm thinking of.

It's rainbow staff, but it's enough better than rainbow staff that I would have gone for it without a second doubt back when I was mage-main.

[Alhanelem]

Feel free to suggest a new set of ultimate weapons. Adding special mage effects to the existing ones is unfair to all the other weapons (if stuff isn't added to them as well), and transforming them into something different isn't fair to anyone who obtained one with the understanding that these weapons do what they say they do now.

[Byrth]

You know, I have a 90 Empyrean (soon will have 2) from one of the hardest paths (Twashtar and Ukon, 269/350 items collected), and if they made the Relic equivalents superior in the next patch, I wouldn't say shit. Everyone who has an Empyrean should realize they're getting cut a break. I can't really sympathize with someone who does second-class work and cries about ending up with a second-class weapon, even if that person is me!

I don't think making Relics more powerful/different would destroy game balance or ruin the effort people put into their weapons, and I doubt any relic owners would have legitimate concerns with the suggestions I proposed. Plus, I go out of my way in that thread to maintain some balance between the big-3.

[Alhanelem]

Everyone who has an Empyrean should realize they're getting cut a break.No argument there.

One thing's always bugged me though. The Relic weapons ALWAYS have a chance to do multiplied damage. Are people considering this when they compare empy weapons and relics and say the empys are better?

[Dallas]

When Amano was created, it was the best GKT in the game. When Claustrum was created, it was immediately inferior to an AH option in any condition that did not ask the BLM or SMN to melee.

Let's not pretend that Claustrum was ever "discussed." There are much more believable lies out there.

[Karbuncle]

If you wanna hear something funnier about Claustrum, At level 75, Primate Staff+1 under its Latent had a better DPS Value than Claustrum.

Its clear the Relic Staff was meant for Melee purposes, why? Probably because SE didn't expect Mages to stand back in every single fight. Obviously some fights were meant to keep mages backline, But I'm sure they had "visioned" Mages fighting by melee in very select fights.

Of course not every situation... And why anyone would go to such lengths for a Relic Staff is beyond me, but its intentions were clear, a heavy-hitting weapon that offered a way for Mages to melee and to an extent not worry about MP (Its aftermath).

The problem being, obviously, Elemental Staves increasing Nuke Potency/Accuracy, that and a Mages awful over-all DPS and Accuracy.

Rather its logical or not, the vision was clear. They expected mages to melee with these weapons, thats why on Claustrum, The aftermath gave you a heavy Refresh (better than anything possible back at 75 when it was released), and the Empyrean staff recovers a large portion of your MP, and (I think?) removes some debuffs (maybe something you're hit with meleeing!?)

Its was a rather unsuccessful vision due to the nature of weapons like Elemental Staves and now the Magian Staves. Still, One would have to wonder in some fights back at 75 would Meleeing for TP and recovering your MP Through Claustrum refresh have been better than Nuking > Healing MP > nuking? the answer is Probably not, Terrible Accuracy/damage, etc.

If SMN or BLM had an ~A ranking in staff and a bit better DD gear it might not have been so far fetched.

Oh well, Don't wanna go too far into a Claustrum Debate, God forbid i tread that territory.

Edit: The above statement is mostly in terms for BLM, SMN is another Story, as their only other marketable skill outside of Avatars is picking their nose and and tossing a cure or na.

[Dallas]

Its was a rather unsuccessful vision due to the nature of weapons like Elemental Staves and now the Magian Staves.

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

[Greatguardian]

No argument there.

One thing's always bugged me though. The Relic weapons ALWAYS have a chance to do multiplied damage. Are people considering this when they compare empy weapons and relics and say the empys are better?

Relic OTD/DD rates are atrocious, and for the most part Empyrean WS are almost always the best WS available for the class when the Empyrean itself is worth making. Dagger is pretty much the only good Empyrean that sacrifices some damage to keep Aftermath ODD up, and even then I believe it's a bit ahead of Mandau.

[Karbuncle]

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

You should really really read my edit at the bottom that you seemed to ignore and/or miss

[Karbuncle]

Relic OTD/DD rates are atrocious, and for the most part Empyrean WS are almost always the best WS available for the class when the Empyrean itself is worth making. Dagger is pretty much the only good Empyrean that sacrifices some damage to keep Aftermath ODD up, and even then I believe it's a bit ahead of Mandau.

I think 90 Mandau vs 90 Thwast is very close, Last i checked it Favored Mandau due to the 25% WS boost Relics received at 90, and slightly higher base damage. Plus in Abyssea with Mandau you can simply spam Evisc and still receive OTD, where as with Thwast you would have to use a gimp WS (Rudras is trash unstacked...) to keep up Aftermath every ~30(60?) Seconds.

Of course every debate i read has one guy arguing Thwast is better and one arguing Mandau is better.

[Dallas]

That portion was not there. As one of two SMN in this thread that have figured out what goes in between BPs besides nose-picking, I can safely say that the only job that ever wanted melee staves for melee was SMN.

[Korpg]

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

I thought you don't use Minkin, and I know you don't have any perp gear at all, because you are all "melee or GTFO."

So how do you get free avatars without your "uber" emp weapon? By not summoning them?

[Korpg]

That portion was not there. As one of two SMN in this thread that have figured out what goes in between BPs besides nose-picking, I can safely say that the only job that ever wanted melee staves for melee was SMN.

Monks don't exist, do they?

[Alhanelem]

Monks don't exist, do they?
No MNK would ever use a staff outside of proccing in abyssea or using it to skill up more easily.


So how do you get free avatars without your "uber" emp weapon? By not summoning them? I gain 1 MP with full empyrean and no weapon at all on all avatars at all times with favor, and gain more MP with no favor if the weather is up. Fenrir and Carbuncle are always "free". normal avatars without the corresponding weather and no favor are -1mp/tick.

You don't EVER need 6 perp on staff unless you think getting the empyrean armor for your job is uncool. To just offset perp cost (favor off), you only need 1. To offset perp cost + gain full refresh benefit, you need 4.

If you are a summon+dismiss SMN there's even less point in ever wearing a perp staff as the MP savings will be minimal, 3-12 MP at worst (leaving 10 seconds to summon/bp/dismiss); you could just idle in a soulscourge and you'd never notice the perp cost. For anyone else, elemental staves STILL do the job. Why waste time to get more perp than you need?

[Cream_Soda]

No MNK would ever use a staff outside of proccing in abyssea or using it to skill up more easily.
I've used my staff plenty. Not in my every day situations, but I've used it more times than you're giving it credit for

[Korpg]

No MNK would ever use a staff outside of proccing in abyssea or using it to skill up more easily.
I've used my staff plenty. Not in my every day situations, but I've used it more times than you're giving it credit for

Hell, I don't mess with MNKs that often but even I knew that they use staffs more than just procing.

[Cream_Soda]

SA fullswing was a great alternative to lolchi blast when they didn't want you meleeing on something.

[Korpg]

SA fullswing was a great alternative to lolchi blast when they didn't want you meleeing on something.

Monks sometimes come as /THF?

Guess its true, you can learn something new every day. Unless you are talking about Dark Ixion, I already knew that.

Edit: Besides, isn't Penance worth having 5/5 for 100 seconds of 25% TP gain reduction? Or does Yurin: Ichi override/not stack with it?

[Cream_Soda]

They had me /thf DI once, didn't care for it. Came sam after that, lol. And it wasn't common back in the day, but was an alternative I used at times.

[Alhanelem]

No one fights those HNMs anymore.

[Korpg]

They had me /thf DI once, didn't care for it. Came sam after that, lol. And it wasn't common back in the day, but was an alternative I used at times.

I'm surprised they didn't have you build TP on surrounding mobs and WS on DI like I used to do.

[Aurara]

Really, because I do?

[Cream_Soda]

No one fights those HNMs anymore.
You said "ever"

and yes, while they're not a popular as before, people do still fight those monsters.

[Razushu]

My avatars are free without any weapon. What situation makes those Magian staves worth anything?

Pretty uch any of the many situations where melee is risky

They're free with those too although regained MP =/= Free. The exact same logic can be compared to Myrkr my avatars are free what makes Myrkr worth anything?

[Korpg]

They're free with those too although regained MP =/= Free. The exact same logic can be compared to Myrkr my avatars are free what makes Myrkr worth anything?

You misunderstood him. He said free without any weapon, which you were so kind as to quoting.

How can he use Myrkr without his staff equipped and whacking off on a mob? He isn't using any refresh atmas (they are below him, he even stated so) so he is getting free avatars elsewhere. The only thing that comes to mind besides Astral Flow is not having avatars out to begin with. That will really help out his damage output, now wouldn't it?

[Razushu]

You misunderstood him. He said free without any weapon, which you were so kind as to quoting.

How can he use Myrkr without his staff equipped and whacking off on a mob? He isn't using any refresh atmas (they are below him, he even stated so) so he is getting free avatars elsewhere. The only thing that comes to mind besides Astral Flow is not having avatars out to begin with. That will really help out his damage output, now wouldn't it?

sorry misread thought he was saying SMN melee = unlimited MP again(because other styles don't offer that already)

[Razushu]

That portion was not there. As one of two SMN in this thread that have figured out what goes in between BPs besides nose-picking, I can safely say that the only job that ever wanted melee staves for melee was SMN.

In a party if you're a good player theres lots to do between rages. And as for solo anything big it's stupid to melee on anyway

[Korpg]

In a party if you're a good player theres lots to do between rages. And as for solo anything big it's stupid to melee on anyway

But that is what Apoc atma is for anyway. For him at least.

[Razushu]

But that is what Apoc atma is for anyway. For him at least.

Either that or the biggest NMs he's fighting are the likes of Bubbly Bernie and Falcatus Aranei

[Korpg]

Either that or the biggest NMs he's fighting are the likes of Bubbly Bernie and Falcatus Aranei

Lets give him some credit.

Lets all say that the biggest NM he can effectively melee on would be.....hmm....Waraxe Beak. Nothing too bad to kill, doesn't drop anything good, and can kill an unintelligent player.

[Alhanelem]

You don't need a weapon to totally offset perp cost with full empyrean +2, including auto refresh.

... Anyway... Can we just rename this topic "Let's troll Dallas!" ? Because that's basically all that's going on here anymore.

[Korpg]

You don't need a weapon to totally offset perp cost with full empyrean +2, including auto refresh.

... Anyway... Can we just rename this topic "Let's troll Dallas!" ? Because that's basically all that's going on here anymore.

Without Atma? Even if you /RDM and continue to cast Refresh on you 100% of the time you still only get 1 mp per tick back with the most ideal set (not including WotG earring). Sure, that is free, but is it plausible? Can you keep your avatar out forever while continue to BP? Sure, theoretically you can, but your damage would really suck.

[Razushu]

You don't need a weapon to totally offset perp cost with full empyrean +2, including auto refresh.

... Anyway... Can we just rename this topic "Let's troll Dallas!" ? Because that's basically all that's going on here anymore.

Al just be glad he's united everyone in this thread and the cyclical arguments have ended thanks to Dallas

[Dallas]

LOL, so not even Al knows the answer to this mystery?

Full +2 gear is macro only.

Replace pants with Augur Brais or refresh augmented subligar.
Replace hands with Nashira Gages.
Using Garuda, replace the +2 horn with the headband.
+2 body, and legs stay on.

Free avatars all the time, with soulscourge.

[Razushu]

LOL, so not even Al knows the answer to this mystery?

Full +2 gear is macro only.

Replace pants with Augur Brais or refresh augmented subligar.
Replace hands with Nashira Gages.
Using Garuda, replace the +2 horn with the headband.
+2 body, and legs stay on.

With Caller's Horn +1/2 Karura becomes a macro piece

[Dallas]

Not if you are DDing or tanking. So yah, for you.

[Alhanelem]

Without Atma?Yes.

And as above, Karura is a macro piece, not the caller's horn. The attack/def bonus on the hachigane is insignificant, and only relevant with Garuda.

For ordinary SMN activities, you can easily fulltime the entire set (macroing BP delay and such in as needed of course).
Gages are nice but not very obtainable if you don't have them already because nobody does limbus.

[Dallas]

Enhances Avatar Attack and Defense is much better than Enhances Favor. Karura > Horn.

[Alhanelem]

Useless buff is not much better than useless buff. Karurua !> Horn.

+2 refresh > -2 perp cost.

[Dallas]

Your avatar has never taken a hit for you?

[Alhanelem]

Defense bonus is virtually meaningless?

If I'm concerned about my avatar's ability to take hits, I'd be using PDT atmas and/or gear, not a crappy headpiece with pet defense +.

[Dallas]

Not at all, it's just that the only SMN who bothered with a defensive build was me. Fortunately, I have 2 easy demonstrations that avatar defense is important:

First, solo agressor antlion in Attowah with DG/Mounted Champion/Minikin with Karuna (I'm assuming no Hverg, VV will work fine as well). My latest 5 fights show that Garuda can almost survive the whole fight. Wait for the next antlion:

Demo 1) Remove Karuna. Garuda will die before the Antlion is half-dead. Resummon.
Demo 2) Use Favor. Garuda will be pummelled into oblivion. Resummon until you are convinced that avatar defense works.

[Alhanelem]

Not at all, it's just that the only SMN who bothered with a defensive build was me. Absolute guarantee: The Defense Bonus on that headgear is responsible for about 0.001% of the total reduction in damage taken by the avatar in a proper defensive setup. Take it off. You will see no difference. Guaranteed.

Calling TOTAL bulls**t on that defense bonus changing "survives whole fight" to "doesn't las half the fight".

Post video proof showing same behavior, same atmas and same gear except for hachigane in two fights of NM we don't care about if we have all this stuff already. Til then, you're blowing smoke just like with every other case of you dodging requests to post your gear.

[Razushu]

Not if you are DDing or tanking. So yah, for you.

insignificant boost ot def/atk during avatar auot attack< +1mp per tick

[Razushu]

Enhances Avatar Attack and Defense is much better than Enhances Favor. Karura > Horn.

Each post proves how little you know about SMN

[Razushu]

Not at all, it's just that the only SMN who bothered with a defensive build was me. Fortunately, I have 2 easy demonstrations that avatar defense is important:

First, solo agressor antlion in Attowah with DG/Mounted Champion/Minikin with Karuna (I'm assuming no Hverg, VV will work fine as well). My latest 5 fights show that Garuda can almost survive the whole fight. Wait for the next antlion:

Demo 1) Remove Karuna. Garuda will die before the Antlion is half-dead. Resummon.
Demo 2) Use Favor. Garuda will be pummelled into oblivion. Resummon until you are convinced that avatar defense works.

The defense is like +10 DG and Mounted champion are whats keeping that Garuda alive

[Tsukino_Kaji]

People use avatar's favor?

[Razushu]

People use avatar's favor?

Diabolos in a mage party and carbunlce if you're a healer in the party, other than that it's very niche

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Diabolos in a mage party and carbunlce if you're a healer in the party, other than that it's very nicheI always end up in the melee and ignore the nin and thf to do nothing but complain about haste.

[Greatguardian]

A summoner in the melee party isn't even able to keep Haste up?

This thread is not for you.

[Razushu]

I always end up in the melee and ignore the nin and thf to do nothing but complain about haste.

favor isn't that good vs the cost of using it. It needs an update badly

[Tsukino_Kaji]

A summoner in the melee party isn't even able to keep Haste up?

This thread is not for you.Melee in an XP alliance don't need haste.

[Razushu]

A summoner in the melee party isn't even able to keep Haste up?

This thread is not for you.

I think they're just talking about how some people freak out if haste drops for 5 seconds

[Greatguardian]

Melee in an XP alliance don't need haste.

You're funny. Troll and +1 your postcount elsewhere.

[Razushu]

Melee in an XP alliance don't need haste.

Abyssea killed buffers lol. MY RDM friend hasn't gotten to use his RDM in 6 months in Abyssea

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You're funny. Troll and +1 your postcount elsewhere.If you think haste dose anything but waste MP when the mob dies in 2 seconds, you're funny.

[Cream_Soda]

You're right, enmity is what you dose, not haste.

Well, it could be does or douse, either way you're wrong.

[Korpg]

Not at all, it's just that the only SMN who bothered with a defensive build was me. Fortunately, I have 2 easy demonstrations that avatar defense is important:

First, solo agressor antlion in Attowah with DG/Mounted Champion/Minikin with Karuna (I'm assuming no Hverg, VV will work fine as well). My latest 5 fights show that Garuda can almost survive the whole fight. Wait for the next antlion:

Demo 1) Remove Karuna. Garuda will die before the Antlion is half-dead. Resummon.
Demo 2) Use Favor. Garuda will be pummelled into oblivion. Resummon until you are convinced that avatar defense works.

You really must suck then.

I have solo'd Aggressor Antlion a couple of times for other people who couldn't solo it (I specifically asked them to not help, and most of the time they respect my wished, for the others I just drop party and solo it myself) and Gaurda has never died once. Ever.

If your Gaurda died Dallas, you really must suck. Using Aggressor Antlion as an example is also a very poor one, that NM is easy to solo period. Try Alfred next time.

[Alhanelem]

People use avatar's favor?
Yes, Physical attack loss is insignificant, and a buff is still a buff even if you keep turning it down with BPs (even though that's a dumb mechanic...)

[Alhanelem]

If you think haste dose anything but waste MP when the mob dies in 2 seconds, you're funny.
If the mob dies in 2 seconds, you have too many people on the same mob. If you have an EXP alliance, they should be fighting multiple monsters, not pulling them and gangbanging them one at a time.

[Sparthos]

Melee in an XP alliance don't need haste.

Melee don't need heals in EXP, everything dies too fast.

[Dallas]

You really must suck then.

I have solo'd Aggressor Antlion a couple of times for other people who couldn't solo it (I specifically asked them to not help, and most of the time they respect my wished, for the others I just drop party and solo it myself) and Gaurda has never died once. Ever.

If your Gaurda died Dallas, you really must suck. Using Aggressor Antlion as an example is also a very poor one, that NM is easy to solo period. Try Alfred next time.

You followed my lead, of course you can solo NMs. I promise you that you have no special skills on SMN that you can teach me.

[Sparthos]

Had a good laugh over there being only 21 Claustrum.

[Alhanelem]

That's because Hvergelmir is better and easier to get. But in fact, the number went down, either because they were thrown away or the accounts that had them are inactive.

It would only be funny if there were zero, anyway.

What's funnier is years later there are still zero BST mythics.

What's EVEN FUNNIER is there are more empyrean staves than polearms.


You followed my lead, of course you can solo NMs.He didn't follow your lead. he most likely did this before ever meeting you on this forum.

[Sparthos]

The BST mythic is untrue, someone posted information on ZAM/FFXIAH about a completed Aymur.

There is 1 at the least.

[Korpg]

You followed my lead, of course you can solo NMs. I promise you that you have no special skills on SMN that you can teach me.

So, you invented soloing now?

What else did you invent, bread?

[Alhanelem]

The BST mythic is untrue, someone posted information on ZAM/FFXIAH about a completed Aymur.

There is 1 at the least.
Then it was completed after may or april of this year. Note the dates given for the census.

[Cream_Soda]

Then it was completed after may or april of this year. Note the dates given for the census.
It was, point is there is one and you claimed otherwise. You already know your information is outdated

[Dallas]

He didn't follow your lead. he most likely did this before ever meeting you on this forum.

I'm sure he learned from a friend from a friend from a friend that read a link to my thread. I know how bad his reading skills are, he didn't get there directly.

[Korpg]

I might believe you if you actually did anything besides imagine things.

[Dallas]

Melee SMN is the reason Ducal Guard was discovered. This melee SMN. I know you hate it, Korpg, that's why I repeat it.

[Korpg]

Prove it

I can say I invented toast and you can never prove otherwise

[Dallas]

I could show you threads dated months before Heroes release. I could show you links in every major forum to my thread. I could show the timeline leading up to the nerf.

You aren't worth the effort though. Suffer without.

[Alhanelem]

It was, point is there is one and you claimed otherwise. You already know your information is outdatedPoint is there wasn't one when the data was collected and I only based it off of that. You don't need to be such an a****ole.


Melee SMN is the reason Ducal Guard was discovered. Ummm.... no. Because you didn't have to melee to see the advantage in this.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I could show you threads dated months before Heroes release. I could show you links in every major forum to my thread. I could show the timeline leading up to the nerf.

You aren't worth the effort though. Suffer without.

My car... is bigger than your car. I have absolutely no proof to support this claim, and will be conveniently afk every time it's brought up.

[Fyreus]

I fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN.

Hi. As a support job player that likes to buff low man groups and do a bit of damage on the side i'd like to remind anyone who brings this up that saying stuff like this is literally no different than saying "Oh, well I can out damage a PLD so I should probably melee."

Why compare yourself to someone who does part time damage and part time buffs for props?

[Dallas]

Why compare yourself to someone who does part time damage and part time buffs for props?

Because 2 of those gimp SMN are in this thread bashing melee SMN who can full-time both.