Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Cream_Soda]

I'll take a good summoner over a good white mage, unless the handful of things the white mage has that the summoner doesn't are absolutely critical to success.
That cure 5 sure is pretty useful, I hear.

[Razushu]

and I'm being very generous saying that less than half of the smns I've pt'd with weren't absolute crap

I'd take a good whm over a good smn and I'd take a crap whm over a crap smn.

No ones asking you to take a SMN over a WHM unless you already have a WHM and are looking for a support role job because we do we at that role

[Greatguardian]

Like a working Shell, non-gimped barspells, and Cures greater than 4?

Generally, yes. Those are fairly staple spells.

[Alhanelem]

That cure 5 sure is pretty useful, I hear.
Sure it is. But is it always needed? No.

[Cream_Soda]

No ones asking you to take a SMN over a WHM unless you already have a WHM and are looking for a support role job because we do we at that role
and there are other jobs that fill that support role slot much better than you do is my point.

Am I saying summoner is useless, no. Am I saying it's generally one of the back burner "I couldn't find anything else so I'll take you" type of jobs, yes I am.


Like a working Shell, non-gimped barspells, and Cures greater than 4?

Generally, yes. Those are fairly staple spells.
Light spirit shell works great bro

[Cream_Soda]

Sure it is. But is it always needed? No.
and that's a situation we have someone like the blm, who is there to proc !! just sub whm and take care of it himself, so even then the smn isn't needed or a good choice to put in the pt slot.

[Greatguardian]

Hey, man. If you're willing to main heal on Summoner and feel that you can do so effectively, you're welcome to it. It's not like you're missing much over Red Mage aside from Shell V, which really is a bit of a big deal. But good luck trying to convey the message that Summoner is perfectly capable of main healing, because the rest of the SMN community will likely roast you before you even get a chance to try.

[Alhanelem]

and that's a situation we have someone like the blm, who is there to proc !! just sub whm and take care of it himself, so even then the smn isn't needed or a good choice to put in the pt slot.
Bullshiat. Asking a black mage to cure is like (insert something horrible you could ask someone to do.)

Besides, you're going to have a BLM anyway. You're not giving up a party slot to them.

Plus, if they have no concern other than procing, They don't even need to be in the main party.

[Byrth]

Summoner is invaluable in the roles that I listed earlier. It's plenty useful, it's just not always useful. I'd say it has more strategic uses at the moment than Ranger, Scholar, and Puppetmaster. Probably several other jobs as well.

Also, I reverted some verbatim page lifts from BGwiki. He at least bothered to re-write the other NM strategies he copied, so I let him keep those.

[Razushu]

and there are other jobs that fill that support role slot much better than you do is my point.

Am I saying summoner is useless, no. Am I saying it's generally one of the back burner "I couldn't find anything else so I'll take you" type of jobs, yes I am.


Light spirit shell works great bro

on other jobs vs SMN
will they buff:

better? yes I have said so myself
So much better that you'll notice a slowdown in the party? most likely not(if the SMN cares about the group)

[Cream_Soda]

Bullshiat. Asking a black mage to cure is like (insert something horrible you could ask someone to do.)

Besides, you're going to have a BLM anyway. You're not giving up a party slot to them.

Plus, if they have no concern other than procing, They don't even need to be in the main party.
You do abyssea with more than one party?
And blm can heal just as well as smn. Running out of mp isn't rly a concern and they're both limited to the same tier of cure.

I never said you had to give up a pt slot for a blm. I said if the mob is that easy where you don't need a whm, then you shouldn't need a smn either, you should be fine w/ the blm

[Alhanelem]

And blm can heal just as well as smn.A BLM can't buff just as well as a SMN.

And yes, we do things with more than a party, because we have more than 6 people who want to do things. Do we ABSOLUTELY NEED more than 6 people? No. should we not allow people to come just because we have 6? No.

[Razushu]

Hey, man. If you're willing to main heal on Summoner and feel that you can do so effectively, you're welcome to it. It's not like you're missing much over Red Mage aside from Shell V, which really is a bit of a big deal. But good luck trying to convey the message that Summoner is perfectly capable of main healing, because the rest of the SMN community will likely roast you before you even get a chance to try.

I wouldn't roast him, main heal is something a SMN can pull off easily. It's not a prefered role but if someone needs me to go down that route I've no problem doing it. I've main healed low man groups against that vampire NM in abyssea vunkerl(name escapes me) and Athamas on SMN/SCH before

[Cream_Soda]

A BLM can't buff just as well as a SMN.
Necessary buffs, sure. I don't see why a blm would be incapable of doing a proper haste cycle in abyssea. Does it take a little more effort? Sure, I'm not disputing that, but are the capable of buffing just as well, they sure are.

[Cream_Soda]

A BLM can't buff just as well as a SMN.

And yes, we do things with more than a party, because we have more than 6 people who want to do things. Do we ABSOLUTELY NEED more than 6 people? No. should we not allow people to come just because we have 6? No.
It's called divide an conquer. I never said to tell people they can't come, but you can make a second group within your shell or group or whoever you go with and focus on different mobs whilst remaining in alliance for lotting purposes.

[Razushu]

You do abyssea with more than one party?
And blm can heal just as well as smn. Running out of mp isn't rly a concern and they're both limited to the same tier of cure.

I never said you had to give up a pt slot for a blm. I said if the mob is that easy where you don't need a whm, then you shouldn't need a smn either, you should be fine w/ the blm

SMN has Healing ruby II and a free ~22HP regen

[Cream_Soda]

SMN has Healing ruby II and a free ~22HP regen
If you're fighting something hard enough to where not having healing ruby II makes the diff between life and death, I think its safe to assume you should just have a whm in your pt.

[Korpg]

And I'm still waiting for you to point out where I told smns how to play their jobs, or did you just say that for w/e reason you deemed fit, without any merit of any sort?

I never said nor implied that you told SMNs how to do their job. You assumed that I did.

So I guess that's assumption number 4?

[Cream_Soda]

I never said nor implied that you told SMNs how to do their job. You assumed that I did.

So I guess that's assumption number 4?

It wouldn't be any different if I went to a MNK forum and tell them that they need to Chi Blast even more, or whatever stupid reason.
The bolded implies that I did the same, since it wouldn't be any different. If you were not implying that, then it would be different.

[Razushu]

If you're fighting something hard enough to where not having healing ruby II makes the diff between life and death, I think its safe to assume you should just have a whm in your pt.

It only needs to make the difference between an efficent main heal and Cure IV spam with not much else being added. See 2 posts above yours I stated 2 times where I main healed o NMs with no WHM and my HRII and favor regen made the difference

[Korpg]

The bolded implies that I did the same, since it wouldn't be any different. If you were not implying that, then it would be different.

The implication was you putting your opinion in matters that don't effect you and you have no opinion in the matter.

We aren't talking about lolmnk. So why are you here? That was my question to you that you didn't answer.

[Cream_Soda]

I did answer. It's not my fault if you selectively read.

[Korpg]

I did answer. It's not my fault if you selectively read.

Oh, you mean your horrible excuse?

Yeah, I took that as what it is, a horrible excuse.

[Cream_Soda]

I still answered it whether or not you like the answer doesn't make any difference.

[Korpg]

I still answered it whether or not you like the answer doesn't make any difference.

By your logic.

If somebody asked you what the capital of Ontario is, and you answered shellfish, that is not an answer.

But that is what you did.

[Cream_Soda]

By your logic.

If somebody asked you what the capital of Ontario is, and you answered shellfish, that is not an answer.

But that is what you did.
It is an answer, it's just not the correct answer.

and really, when it comes to why I post, I'm sure I know better than you, so your answer would be the "shellfish" and mine would be "Toronto" in this case.

[Korpg]

It is an answer, it's just not the correct answer.

and really, when it comes to why I post, I'm sure I know better than you, so your answer would be the "shellfish" and mine would be "Toronto" in this case.

What is that, Assumption number 5?

[Cream_Soda]

Yes, and it's one I'm sure everyone would agree with. I know why I post better than you do because I know what I'm thinking and you can't read my mind.

If you're going to try to argue that, you really should get lipo, because triglycerides have invaded your brain.

[Korpg]

Yes, and it's one I'm sure everyone would agree with. I know why I post better than you do because I know what I'm thinking and you can't read my mind.

If you're going to try to argue that, you really should get lipo, because triglycerides have invaded your brain.

How many attack posts have you made today? 8 now?

[Cream_Soda]

Are we only talking about this thread, or all together from all of the interactions I've had today? If it's the latter, then that changes the answer considerably.

[Korpg]

Wait, there is more than one person you torture with your wit?

[Sparthos]

Can I pad my postcount too? :p

[TybudX]

The simple jobs snuffed out the hybrid jobs because they didn't understand them. As you can see, they still don't understand them.

Hitting alt-0 is harder when you are on SMN.

[Alhanelem]

Who's going to make the popcorn?

[Aurara]

Who's going to make the popcorn?

I got it covered, buttered, or not?

[Razushu]

I got it covered, buttered, or not?

I need not your popcorn, for I have brought.... NACHOS! the superior snack food

[Dallas]

Hitting alt-0 is harder when you are on SMN.

We're approaching 800 posts, and there are still MNKs and WARs, who don't see the difference between

1) a 130mp, 1-sec job ability hitting everyone including the pet for a 5-minute haste and
2) a 40mp, 3 second cast, 20 second recast spell hitting 1 person for a 3-minute haste

Just using the Haste spell for the SMN + avatar for 5 minute duration would cost 133MP and take 12 seconds to cast. Basically, for a melee SMN, keeping you ungrateful autoattackers hasted is free and gives me back extra attack rounds.

[Bumbeen]

Wow thread exploded. Anyway, my last post like 20 pages ago about the smn party was just a troll post.

[Razushu]

Wow thread exploded. Anyway, my last post like 20 pages ago about the smn party was just a troll post.

I know lol, no one could have that kind of lack of knowledge of a job in this game. It really did explode there was like 2 pages solid of Kor and cream fighting that seemed to do it.

[Leonlionheart]

How is this thread still going on?

Yall feeding dallas need to troll or something, because there's no way that Melee SMN is anything but a joke.

You can argue how AoE Hastega is all day, because it's very AoE, but that doesn't mean the SMN should ever be in the melee party anyway, where a single BRD can do the same thing IN BETWEEN SONG ROTATIONS and give superior haste at all times to the melee party.

Just because SMN can, doesn't mean it should.

[Dallas]

Why did you bother with SMN 90, LLH? You won't DD or buff, and I'm sure you heal with WHM. You get all the pixels at L75, so what bet did you lose?

[TybudX]

We're approaching 800 posts, and there are still MNKs and WARs, who don't see the difference between

1) a 130mp, 1-sec job ability hitting everyone including the pet for a 5-minute haste and
2) a 40mp, 3 second cast, 20 second recast spell hitting 1 person for a 3-minute haste

Just using the Haste spell for the SMN + avatar for 5 minute duration would cost 133MP and take 12 seconds to cast. Basically, for a melee SMN, keeping you ungrateful autoattackers hasted is free and gives me back extra attack rounds.

So you admit that hitting alt-0 is easier on SMN than hitting alt-0 6 times on WHM, RDM, or SCH is? Or what was your point? You made a comment about 'simple jobs' snuffing out hybrids like it's difficult to play SMN; it's not even remotely hard. It takes the same amount of focus and knowledge of gear as any other job in the game. The difference between SMN auto-attacking, casting a couple buffs, doing a WS, etc., and an 'ungrateful autoattacker' who needs to pay attention to mob behaviour, swap gear for pdt/mdt, WS at appropriate times, possibly count shadows, keep up a cycle of their own buffs and debuffs? It's nil. The concept of DD being auto-attack/afk is a joke. WAR is the job that comes closest to it, and good luck going from being a melee SMN to keeping up with all of a WARs JAs, gear swaps, etc. You really are clueless.

Also, it's been explained, over, and over, and over, and over. You casting Hastega is a convenience for mages. Not for "ungrateful autoattackers". Mages. You are actually getting mad because you aren't getting recognition for it, from "ungrateful autoattackers", who are going to get Haste regardless of you being in the party or not. Those mages aren't even put out by having to cycle Haste themselves; they've been doing it outside of Abyssea Refresh for years with no problems. Why do they suddenly need that 133mp and 12 seconds? Oh, that's right, they don't. So really, the only person who gains anything from a SMN casting Hastega over a WHm or a RDM or a SCH is.... the avatar. Sounds to me like you're the ungrateful one, for being allowed to cast a buff that only benefits yourself.

[Bumbeen]

I dunno how you guys are able to keep this up.

[Dallas]

It's easy. They're playing SMN, without DD, buffing, or healing. They have all the time in the world to post.



Also, it's been explained, over, and over, and over, and over. You casting Hastega is a convenience for mages. Not for "ungrateful autoattackers".

You can be wrong over and over. We'll hit 1000 posts and you will still be wrong. My pet only gets Haste from me. I'm using Hastega. I'm sure even WHM taught by BG are bad enough players to overwrite a 5 minute buff with a 3 minute buff.

It's very easy. If you want a weaker buff, party with weaker players.

[Bumbeen]

Actually, I think you're trolling all of them.

[Leonlionheart]

Why did you bother with SMN 90, LLH? You won't DD or buff, and I'm sure you heal with WHM. You get all the pixels at L75, so what bet did you lose?

I leveled SMN for fun, actually. All my other jobs out do it in all categories, except maybe buffing, however BLU can do that to some extent (hello AoE 5min haste and more powerful cures than anyone but WHM, including the most MP efficient cure there is) although obviously not as well as SMN.

I still play it somewhat often, but hardly ever in a party setting. I use it to cure on NMs that don't need the level of cures WHM does (95% of seal NMs SMN can heal well enough and keep out an Avatar at all times in abyssea).

[Leonlionheart]

You can be wrong over and over. We'll hit 1000 posts and you will still be wrong. My pet only gets Haste from me. I'm using Hastega. I'm sure even WHM taught by BG are bad enough players to overwrite a 5 minute buff with a 3 minute buff.

It's very easy. If you want a weaker buff, party with weaker players.

lol, because the SMN is in the DD party. If you want a weaker party, play with a SMN in it.

[Alhanelem]

Yall feeding dallas need to troll or something, because there's no way that Melee SMN is anything but a joke.It keeps going on because you keep posting crap like this and incite others to post more. There's a term people use on the internet for this... Trollling? I think that's what it was called?

It's not "anything but a joke." It has its place and use with the proper preperation. It just just doesn't live up to your standards. That's fine. Doesn't bother me at all. It's not, however, a joke. It's serious business. It is capable of elevating the job beyond whatever current level of patheticness you feel it has, up to a higher level (and this was proven with math). Whatever you want to call it is up to you, as long as you don't impose your immature and elitist feelings and views on others.


but that doesn't mean the SMN should ever be in the melee party anyway,If you have a summoner, they should be treated like any other human being playing any other job and should be given the respect they deserve. I'm sorry that you feel that any kind of SMN falls below your elitist standards, but for the rest of us, it's funcitonal enough to have in a party and get stuff done.For the rest of us below the top 1%, it's still a useful, functional job.

[Greatguardian]

It's not about personal respect or disrespect and never has been, and that is where you fall apart. You keep defending your job to the death when you're being hit with facts and numbers that just go to show that Summoner is practically last place in terms of actual utility. Here's the problem: You're personally invested in the Summoner job. Just because Summoner is bottom of the barrel, does that mean that people who have Summoner leveled are somehow not worthy of respect? No. No one is claiming that.

Summoner as a job is absolutely not worth batting an eye over. It is practically dead last. Every other job in the game that can buff can buff better than Summoner. Every other job in the game that can DD can DD better than summoner. Every other job in the game that can heal can heal as well as or better than Summoner. The jobs in the game that can do more than one of these at a time still do them all better than Summoner. It hasn't been about being the best for 75 pages. It is about being dead bloody last.

Should any of that affect you personally? No. Does any of that say anything about a player behind the monitor? No. Does any of that mean that a player who is on Summoner is trash and bottom of the barrel? No. All it means, and all it will ever mean, is that the job itself is bottom of the barrel.

Will there be good players playing terrible jobs? Always. Will they be preferable to crappy players on good jobs? Always. But at the same time, would those good players be significantly better on good jobs? Hell yes. They would outperform themselves by miles. That is the only real test to be had here. If I get on SMN and play it perfectly, and then get on WHM and play it perfectly and outperform my SMN by a mile and a half (in DD, Buffing, AND healing simultaneously), then I can safely say that I'm far more effective on White Mage than I could ever be on Summoner.

This is the point. No one gives a flying frap if you come Summoner to things. No one gives a flying frap how you spend your time, or what your friends do, or who lets you do what. You are welcome to be on the bottom of the barrel, dead last, worst job in the game as much as you want. If you play it well? Great. You play the game well. But that does not make Summoner any better. That does not make Summoner worthy of any respect as a job class. That does not make Summoner anything other than borderline dead weight, an underperforming blemish on the FFXI job system.

Play Summoner all you want. Enjoy it as much as you want, I'm glad for you and bear you no ill will for it. But don't you dare come in here and tell me that dead last is "Good enough".

[Bumbeen]

best post 123456

[Dallas]

It's not about personal respect or disrespect and never has been, and that is where you fall apart. You keep defending your job to the death when you're being hit with facts and numbers that just go to show that Summoner is practically last place in terms of actual utility.

You still peddling "WAR deserves credit for all 1000 damage?"

[Byrth]

Hey Al! You guys are done with FFXIclopedia, divorced of all responsibility, etc.... but you probably still have all the keys. Can you still IP ban people?

This user just takes information from BGwiki, sometimes re-writes it, and posts it without a citation. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/User:Alkimi

If your information/citation policy meant anything, he should be IP banned.

[Leonlionheart]

It's not "anything but a joke." It has its place and use with the proper preperation. It just just doesn't live up to your standards. That's fine. Doesn't bother me at all. It's not, however, a joke. It's serious business. It is capable of elevating the job beyond whatever current level of patheticness you feel it has, up to a higher level (and this was proven with math). Whatever you want to call it is up to you, as long as you don't impose your immature and elitist feelings and views on others.

If you have a summoner, they should be treated like any other human being playing any other job and should be given the respect they deserve. I'm sorry that you feel that any kind of SMN falls below your elitist standards, but for the rest of us, it's funcitonal enough to have in a party and get stuff done.For the rest of us below the top 1%, it's still a useful, functional job.

Why in hell would I lower my DD party's output because someone deserves RESPECT? You're disrespecting ME by insisting on coming on a next to useless job because you feel you can be of use, when in reality compared to WHM BLM BLU NIN WAR you can do next to nothing.

Can SMN proc? BARELY. They can get /brd procs, /whm procs, /rdm or /sch procs, and the OCCASIONAL spirit to proc, once every 5 years.

How is SMNs real damage output? 5k~10k every 45 seconds, averages about 5.8k every 45 seconds depending on targets. That's 128 DPS. Hvergelmir can hit from 100 to 700 (round to 500 just for kicks) every 1.4 (assuming we're going all out- /SAM hasso + 5/5 Haste Samba DNC and BRD with Soul voice in party and ofc your wonderful hastega) seconds, so lets just give SMN a 485 DPS using my hypothetical numbers (based off of my experiance). WAR hits 300~4.5k averaging at about 800 since you're mostly getting crits and not extremely rare ODD+Set effect hits, every 1.6 seconds which is 500 DPS, already 15 damage more than a SMN can bust out, period. Now lets add in Ukko's Fury (assuming 6hit)! Minumum time to 100 TP is (well theoretically its 2 seconds since a mob can triple attack you twice in quick secession and retaliation can proc on each hit, but since I'm not trying to completely humiliate all other DD, and just specifically SMN DD, I'll just use slightly bigger numbers for the time to 100 tp) 3.2 seconds, maximum is 9.6 seconds. Round to 6.4. Ukko's Fury ranges from 3k to 10k, lets say the average is 4k just for the lulz, even though its more like 5k. That's 625 DPS from Ukko's Fury alone. 625+485= 1110 DPS, over twice of what SMN could POSSIBLY have, both in capped haste situations which is MUCH harder for SMN to have than WAR. These are just hypothetical numbers from common damage.

=TL;DR: Ukon WAR DPS is easily over 200% of what a Hvergelmir SMN's DPS would be, including blood pacts. FACT.

Now do you see why you are insulting me for thinking you are EVEN CLOSE to a real DD's possibilities? Why would I let you in a party where I could easily do twice your DPS? Not to mention I can actually cap Accuracy easily, and pDIF semi-easily. Melee SMN is a COMPLETE JOKE compared to actual DD in terms of DPS.

Who in their RIGHT MIND would gimp a DD party out of respect for a job? I can see a SMN going in the tank party for Earthen Armor for SELECT situations, or switching into the DD party after the brd for Perfect Defense for... SELECT situations. Or just put in the BLM party for Hastega (stun recast prz) and Diabolos Favor and Dream Shroud. Outside of Abyssea SMN changes to hateless damage, which is favored in Voidwatch so good for you. Useless content is useless though.

TOTAL TL;DR: SMN Melee is a total joke compared to actual DD. There is no reason to gimp a DD party of dedicated DD players for a SMN who thinks he's a special snowflake and a unique flower.

[Cream_Soda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35kaTl6RiIE&list=PL342606213D09B173

[Korpg]

Can we just admit that there are 3 groups of people here.

Group A won't invite SMN for anything, which is ok by most SMNs because they rather solo the same NMs that Group A is fighting.

Group B want to be invited into more parties, because they feel that they can contribute to that said party's total damage.

Group C doesn't care about either Group A or B's point of view, they just want to create pointless rabble and "stir up the hornet's nest" so to speak.

Then you got Dallas, who truly believes in what he is saying.

Personally, I don't want to be in a party of non-SMNs when it comes to killing NMs. Can I kill the same NM easy? Sure. Can I kill it faster with more SMNs? Yeah. Can I kill it faster with everyone else? I rather be either WAR (red/blue procs) or BLM (yellow procs) if I'm going to join a party of non-summoners.

It really does not matter at all if SMN is considered the "bottom of the barrel" job, it is not designed to be the best at anything but soloing. It has more usefulness in party situations than any of the other 2 solo jobs, but it was not designed to replace any other job in what they do.

[Alhanelem]

It's not about personal respect or disrespect and never has been, and that is where you fall apart. You keep defending your job to the death when you're being hit with facts and numbers that just go to show that Summoner is practically last place in terms of actual utility. Here's the problem: You're personally invested in the Summoner job. Just because Summoner is bottom of the barrel, does that mean that people who have Summoner leveled are somehow not worthy of respect? No. No one is claiming that.

Summoner as a job is absolutely not worth batting an eye over. It is practically dead last. Every other job in the game that can buff can buff better than Summoner. Every other job in the game that can DD can DD better than summoner. Every other job in the game that can heal can heal as well as or better than Summoner. The jobs in the game that can do more than one of these at a time still do them all better than Summoner. It hasn't been about being the best for 75 pages. It is about being dead bloody last.

Should any of that affect you personally? No. Does any of that say anything about a player behind the monitor? No. Does any of that mean that a player who is on Summoner is trash and bottom of the barrel? No. All it means, and all it will ever mean, is that the job itself is bottom of the barrel.

Will there be good players playing terrible jobs? Always. Will they be preferable to crappy players on good jobs? Always. But at the same time, would those good players be significantly better on good jobs? Hell yes. They would outperform themselves by miles. That is the only real test to be had here. If I get on SMN and play it perfectly, and then get on WHM and play it perfectly and outperform my SMN by a mile and a half (in DD, Buffing, AND healing simultaneously), then I can safely say that I'm far more effective on White Mage than I could ever be on Summoner.

This is the point. No one gives a flying frap if you come Summoner to things. No one gives a flying frap how you spend your time, or what your friends do, or who lets you do what. You are welcome to be on the bottom of the barrel, dead last, worst job in the game as much as you want. If you play it well? Great. You play the game well. But that does not make Summoner any better. That does not make Summoner worthy of any respect as a job class. That does not make Summoner anything other than borderline dead weight, an underperforming blemish on the FFXI job system.

Play Summoner all you want. Enjoy it as much as you want, I'm glad for you and bear you no ill will for it. But don't you dare come in here and tell me that dead last is "Good enough".
You're so full of BS, I don't know where to begin.

In fact, I won't, save for a few bits. Summoner is not "dead last" at anything. A job that can do many things but none of them the best, aka jack of trades, is not "dead last."



This is the point. No one gives a flying frap if you come Summoner to things. No one gives a flying frap how you spend your time, or what your friends do, or who lets you do what.Obviously you do, because you clearly wouldn't be caught dead with one and you take every effort to make it sound worse than it is. Go take your elitism back to BG, we don't want it here.


Why in hell would I lower my DD party's outputYou aren't "lowering the output" of any normal, typical party of normal typical people. This is a load of cockamamie whatsit.


Ukon WAR DPS is easily over 200% of what a Hvergelmir SMN's DPS would be, including blood pacts. FACT.You keep bringing this up when I never made any claims to SMN competing with an Ukon WAR. I really dont give 2 farking shiats what an Ukon WAR can do. Great, you're the awesomest DD. Good for you. So we have to be extraordinary to compete with the ordinary. We can, and I consider that an achievement, given how far behind you'd be otherwise- we've already shown that the avatar is only about 1/3 of your maximum damage potential when playing this way.

Does summoner need buffing? Yes, hell yes it does. Is it "the worst job?" No. Not by a million miles. SMN can cure if necessary, buff if necessary, and add some damage while doing either of those things. SMN has unique debuffs (I'll agree its difficult to take advantage of them though) and easily one of the most powerful 2-hours.

[Byrth]

Hey Al! You guys are done with FFXIclopedia, divorced of all responsibility, etc.... but you probably still have all the keys. Can you still IP ban people?

This user just takes information from BGwiki, sometimes re-writes it, and posts it without a citation. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/User:Alkimi

If your information/citation policy meant anything, he should be IP banned.

Mind responding to this post, Alhanelem?

[Cream_Soda]

You aren't "lowering the output" of any normal, typical party of normal typical people. This is a load of cockamamie whatsit.
The better the group, the more you lose w/ a smn. The worse the group, the less you lose.

If your typical group consists of bad players, then I agree for your particular scenario

[Cream_Soda]

Mind responding to this post, Alhanelem?
Yes, he sure does

[Alhanelem]

Mind responding to this post, Alhanelem?
Uhm, sure, I'll look into it.

Please post on my talk page to point out specific examples of plagarism, because I don't visit BGWiki.

I'll happily revert any such acts that can be proven (or add appropriate attribution)

[Alhanelem]

The better the group, the more you lose w/ a smn. The worse the group, the less you lose.

If your typical group consists of bad players, then I agree for your particular scenario
In any average group of average people, you don't lose anything. It's only when you reach the elitist tier when you might lose anything.

[Cream_Soda]

In any average group of average people, you don't lose anything. It's only when you reach the elitist tier when you might lose anything.
Nah, doesn't have to be elite. More like anything above average. A pt w/ ppl w/ somewhat decent gear and not skilling up their weapon in your group, w/ a mage that can keep buffs up.

[Alhanelem]

I'll be that mage keeping buffs up, thanks.

It's easy when your haste lasts 66% longer and hits everyone at once.

800 posts later and all we've learned is that elitists hate summoners. Even the gay marriage thread didn't go on this long.

[Razushu]

I'll be that mage keeping buffs up, thanks.

^This.

This argument passed futile and is bordering on the ridiculous now the 1%'ers aren't gonna change their minds any more than us SMNs are. Let's face it these 2 groups will probably never have much interaction in game if at all you won't play with us we won't play with you so why don't we all take our respective toys and move to seperate corners of the playground.

[Aurara]

We aren't saying we hate SMN, is that so hard to understand? CS is saying that Hastega doesn't benefit the melees, since a competent mage can keep 3-4 DDs hasted easily.

[Cream_Soda]

ITT: The idea of a whm being able to keep a DD pt hasted is elitest

[Razushu]

We aren't saying we hate SMN, is that so hard to understand? CS is saying that Hastega doesn't benefit the melees, since a competent mage can keep 3-4 DDs hasted easily.

I know you aren't. If haste was all a SMN can bring to a party then you MAY have had a point but we add much more haste is just one thing we can do

[Cream_Soda]

I know you aren't. If haste was all a SMN can bring to a party then you MAY have had a point but we add much more haste is just one thing we can do
and what we're saying is that what a lot of other jobs can bring to the pt is more valuable than what smn has to offer.

[Razushu]

ITT: The idea of a whm being able to keep a DD pt hasted is elitest

No but believing a setup needs to be in the top say 5% to a great success is.

[Alhanelem]

We aren't saying we hate SMN, is that so hard to understand? CS is saying that Hastega doesn't benefit the melees, since a competent mage can keep 3-4 DDs hasted easily.
Even an incompetent summoner can keep all 6 party members hasted easily, with no thought process or cycle required.

[Cream_Soda]

No but believing a setup needs to be in the top say 5% to a great success is.
I'll put it this way. If you have a smn and want to use one, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a good job or one that is preferable to use.

It's plain that simple. If you want to use it because the person in your group has most fun on the job, that's one thing, but something like "I want a smn in this pt because of how great they are and how much they add to this party" is another.

[Cream_Soda]

Even an incompetent summoner can keep all 6 party members hasted easily, with no thought process or cycle required.
The point is w/ a competent whm, there's no need for it.

Your only point here is the more your pt sucks, the better a smn is. Ok, we're fine with that. Go play with crappy players and be their god.

[Byrth]

Uhm, sure, I'll look into it.

Please post on my talk page to point out specific examples of plagarism, because I don't visit BGWiki.

I'll happily revert any such acts that can be proven (or add appropriate attribution)

I've reverted all the ones where he literally copied and pasted our information (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php?title=Hahava&action=historysubmit&diff=1341535&oldid=1339119), complete with formatting (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php?title=Celaeno&action=historysubmit&diff=1341363&oldid=1337723), but it has been a constant stream of uncited edits (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Alkimi)he has done for the month or so. Take a look at his edit history, take a look at our page. It doesn't take a genius to figure out where the information is coming from, especially when he gets tired of rewording things and copy/pastes the Tier 4 information. I'm not sure those links will work, but they were just his revision history before and after he contributed to the Hahava and Celaeno pages.

For reference, if you can bear it:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Celaeno
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hahava

I get all my information from other people, but I cite them and it's generally with express permission. Iirc, one of the primary reasons contributors soured on BGwiki is because the mods would go revert all edits that were uncited and probably from FFXIclopedia. Also, iirc, BGwiki's writing is protected under a non-profit license, meaning that other websites cannot legally take its information and use it for a profit, which is displaying it, in the case of ad revenue supported websites like wikia.

[Razushu]

I'll put it this way. If you have a smn and want to use one, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a good job or one that is preferable to use.

It's plain that simple. If you want to use it because the person in your group has most fun on the job, that's one thing, but something like "I want a smn in this pt because of how great they are and how much they add to this party" is another.

You don't rate the job and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that I am useful as a support and have been since I started trying it 2 years ago. Am I the best? No. Am I good at it? Yes

[Aurara]

Even an incompetent summoner can keep all 6 party members hasted easily, with no thought process or cycle required.

I can do this on RDM or WHM, no thought required.
Edit: want my ideal tank pt?
RDM WHM BRD COR DDx2

Can maybe drop rdm for dnc depending on what you're fighting.

[Cream_Soda]

You don't rate the job and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that I am useful as a support and have been since I started trying it 2 years ago. Am I the best? No. Am I good at it? Yes
You can be good at the job itself w/o the job being good (comparatively) to other jobs that could be in its place.

[Korpg]

Guys, just ignore Cream Soda.

He is just trolling all you since that is all he does.

[Cream_Soda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQimv6IfnBQ&list=PL342606213D09B173

[Korpg]

Yes, you are mad, what is your point?

[Cream_Soda]

Maddest in all the land. I got steam shootin out of all body openings

[Alhanelem]

I've reverted all the ones where he literally copied and pasted our information (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php?title=Hahava&action=historysubmit&diff=1341535&oldid=1339119), complete with formatting (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php?title=Celaeno&action=historysubmit&diff=1341363&oldid=1337723), but it has been a constant stream of uncited edits (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Alkimi)he has done for the month or so. Take a look at his edit history, take a look at our page. It doesn't take a genius to figure out where the information is coming from, especially when he gets tired of rewording things and copy/pastes the Tier 4 information. I'm not sure those links will work, but they were just his revision history before and after he contributed to the Hahava and Celaeno pages.

For reference, if you can bear it:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Celaeno
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hahava

I get all my information from other people, but I cite them and it's generally with express permission. Iirc, one of the primary reasons contributors soured on BGwiki is because the mods would go revert all edits that were uncited and probably from FFXIclopedia. Also, iirc, BGwiki's writing is protected under a non-profit license, meaning that other websites cannot legally take its information and use it for a profit, which is displaying it, in the case of ad revenue supported websites like wikia.
Across Wikia, all wikis use the CC-BY-SA license, as do we on GamerEscape. People are free to share/modify/use anything on it, as long as they attribute the source (BY) and the shared/modified/used content is made available under the same license (SA).

I think I see reasonable cause to take action on this.

[Dallas]

The point is w/ a competent whm, there's no need for it.
The WHM can't be that competent, the tank is a WAR/SAM looking for epeen damage.

[Aurara]

The WHM can't be that competent, the tank is a WAR/SAM looking for epeen damage.

Wait what? The two have no correlation....

[Alhanelem]

For all our disagreement, I'm sure we can agree Dallas makes no sense whatsoever. Just ignore him.

[Aurara]

For all our disagreement, I'm sure we can agree Dallas makes no sense whatsoever. Just ignore him.

At least we can agree on something.

[Byrth]

I think I see reasonable cause to take action on this.

Thanks!

I don't know if Dallas is crazy, trolling, or really bad at English and says stuff stronger than he actually means.

[Dallas]

Wait what? The two have no correlation....

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

[Aurara]

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.
You're wrong because i can do this easily on whm.

[DebbieGibson]

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

You are dumb.

[Dallas]

Thanks!

I don't know if Dallas is crazy, trolling, or really bad at English and says stuff stronger than he actually means.

You guys have been throwing all your SMN bashing out there as fast as you can. It looks like complete crap when you mash them together into a super lie, huh?

[Dallas]

You're wrong because i can do this easily on whm.

Either you or the WAR are lying. I don't care who, but one of you has to admit it and leave.

[Cream_Soda]

ITT: Because I suck and can't do it, nobody else can do it, either.

[Dallas]

I am neither

1) the WAR who said SMN shouldn't melee because WHM don't have the MP
2) the WHM who said he not only has MP, but can handle the haste cycle.

It's kind of like GG's "5x" lie. They say what makes them look good.

[Cream_Soda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0mQ86n43c&list=PL342606213D09B173

[Korpg]

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

Look, you were given the same buffs a WAR was given. WAR had Hasso, you had Hasso, WAR had 40% Spell Haste, you had 40% Spell Haste, WAR had 15% Ability Haste, you had 15% Ability Haste, WAR had 22% gear haste (toned it down for you), you had 22% gear haste, WAR had A+ rating on weapon, you had A+ rating on weapon (toned it up for you).

They have done everything in your favor and you still sucked. They even did not include WAR's JAs and WSs and gave you avatar damage and WAR still beat you 5 to 1. Now that you are saying that a WAR can't survive as a tank? Do you really want to go down that road? Seriously? Are you saying that you can tank better than a WAR? Or are you saying something incomprehensible to anyone but you?

The whole TP feed thing was stating that SMN TP feed does not justify swinging a staff. Which is what I told you months ago, but you wouldn't listen because that fact is detriment to your argument.

As much as I hate elitist attitudes shown recently, there are some facts that can not be ignored.

[Aurara]

Either you or the WAR are lying. I don't care who, but one of you has to admit it and leave.

I think you're grasping straws now. I've tanked everything in abyssea as war/sam with a WHM, and had little to no MP issues.

[Alhanelem]

I'm done with this. no one here is going to convince the other of anything.

[Cream_Soda]

I'm done with this. no one here is going to convince the other of anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEIRpYZNf0s&list=PL342606213D09B173

[Razushu]

I'm done with this. no one here is going to convince the other of anything.

I know man it's useless to fight SMNs will still get invites and still prove useful regardless of the opinions of some of the population I gave up awhile back too lol

[Cream_Soda]

prove useful
Like I said earlier, I never said they weren't useful, just that they weren't good.

You can be useful, but if something else is more useful, I go w/ that and while you're useful, I'd use a word like "average" rather than good.

[Razushu]

senseless rantings

Dallas you happen to be the one thing everyone here agrees on.

[Alhanelem]

Like I said earlier, I never said they weren't useful, just that they weren't good.Contradictory statement

[Cream_Soda]

Contradictory statement
Not at all

A is useful
B is useful

B is much more useful than A.

Both are useful, but B is good (better in this case)

The word useful was used in general

The word "good" was used comparatively (to the other options)

If you got any other meaning form it, I either worded it wrong, or you read it wrong, but I'll clear it up now as to what exactly I meant.

Also, I thought you were done here? That only took you 5 minutes.

[Razushu]

Like I said earlier, I never said they weren't useful, just that they weren't good.

You can be useful, but if something else is more useful, I go w/ that and while you're useful, I'd use a word like "average" rather than good.

That's a reasonable answer. Maybe it's the fact I care about my SMN but I throw myself 100% at the discussed role but I( and the people I've played with in this capacity) have always found it good. I'll be honest with you I wouldn't insist on doing it if it was only average. I can't stand being useless or a loose end, I almost dropped pt when I was trying to get Diabolos (because he kept sleeping my avatars and thus crippling me) after the second failed run so they could pick up a non pet job.

[Alhanelem]

Not at all

A is useful
B is useful

B is much more useful than A.

Both are useful, but B is good (better in this case)

The word useful was used in general

The word "good" was used comparatively (to the other options)

If you got any other meaning form it, I either worded it wrong, or you read it wrong, but I'll clear it up now as to what exactly I meant.

Also, I thought you were done here? That only took you 5 minutes.
But I love you so much, you're irresistable, in a you're a troll and I take the bait sort of way.

/leaves

[Leonlionheart]

Does summoner need buffing? Yes, hell yes it does. Is it "the worst job?" No. Not by a million miles. SMN can cure if necessary, buff if necessary, and add some damage while doing either of those things. SMN has unique debuffs (I'll agree its difficult to take advantage of them though) and easily one of the most powerful 2-hours.

Tell me then, who is the worst job?

SCH? Singles nukes better than BLM on average.
PUP? Verethragna and tactical switch says hi
COR? Regain, mage buffs better than anyone (other than ballad refresh), and Wildfire say hi
DRK? 25% JA haste for 3 minutes says hi, giving them capped recast stuns, and oftentimes bigger dps than groups without a BRD
RDM? Still has incredible debuffs making so many fights way easier than they previously were.
BLU? IDC bro we gots procs.

I don't know what you're looking for here. SMN is definitely and without a doubt the job that brings the least to the table. Tiny DPS, next to useless buffs, healing capability is meh.

[Cream_Soda]

Idk, there's also bst and pld

[Leonlionheart]

Idk, there's also bst and pld

lol forgot they existed for a while.

Yep, can't make up an excuse for those jobs. SMN might be third to last

[Korpg]

Saying that BST is useless shows how much you really know about this game.

You guys need to broaden your mind a little and realize that for times where none of your friends are online and have to do whatever you want them to do, you can still kill the NMs you want to kill by yourself.

[Cream_Soda]

There are plenty of jobs that can solo as well or better than bst.

[Dallas]

Why solo as SMN or BST when you can invite a WAR to do the only thing he's designed to do in that party? I am, of course, referring to zombie proccing red and blue with Apoc atma.

[Fiarlia]

Serious question; BST is that bad?

Probably seems like a trollbait question, but I really have no interaction with any BSTs, nobody in my group has it leveled (except for Maat's Cap maybe), I never ever do pickup groups for anything and I have had no reason to ever look into the job. I know BST is certainly non-optimal, but I didn't know it was that bad. :x

[Leonlionheart]

Why solo as SMN or BST when you can invite a WAR to do the only thing he's designed to do in that party? I am, of course, referring to zombie proccing red and blue with Apoc atma.

I don't die often

but when I do its because I'm red proccing.





Sarcasm intended

[Leonlionheart]

Serious question; BST is that bad?

Probably seems like a trollbait question, but I really have no interaction with any BSTs, nobody in my group has it leveled (except for Maat's Cap maybe), I never ever do pickup groups for anything and I have had no reason to ever look into the job. I know BST is certainly non-optimal, but I didn't know it was that bad. :x

It can solo stuff... slower than DNC or NIN/DNC can. (probably slower than NIN/THF too if you just want the TH from the ladybug)

In a party setting its useless as all get out.

On the bright side, Rampage is good, but it really lacks a lot considering BST doesn't get much offensively other than that and access to all the good gears.

[Dallas]

I don't die often

but when I do its because I'm red proccing.

BST and SMN don't waste lotting rights on WHM who do not provide procs. You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

[Leonlionheart]

BST and SMN don't waste lotting rights on WHM who do not provide procs. You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

Q.Q no I don't want to use an atma that boosts DPS more than any other besides RR...




Sarcasm intended.


Sidenote: lolpetparties

[Cream_Soda]

BST and SMN don't waste lotting rights on WHM who do not provide procs. You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.
ITT: Tp gain whilst double weak

[Fiarlia]

I don't even understand what Dallas is trying to say. I've tried reading and rereading multiple times, and it's still just coming across as word-vomit.

[Leonlionheart]

lol to me it says:

BST and SMN don't need healers... so you don't need WHMs... so instead of inviting WHM get an entire pet party to kill something... and only invite the WAR (and probably NIN) for red procs because you don't have WHM so they need Apoc to keep getting back up.

However, instead of alllll of that you can just: NIN WAR WHM: kill whatever faster than a pet party.

[Fiarlia]

Your talents at derp translations are astounding.

[Leonlionheart]

Your talents at derp translations are astounding.

lol thanks :O its cuz i'm from asura.

[Greatguardian]

I'm just curious at what Summoner is better than ... anyone at.

I mean, like, anything. Want to claim they DD better than PUP? I mean, they don't, but feel free to at least try. Better than PLD? No, no they really don't. I mean, go for it.

Are they better at DD'ing while healing than other jobs that can do so? I dunno. How about Paladin? Nope. Uh, Scholar? Nope. Red Mage? Nope. White Mage? Nope.

Uh, Buffing while Healing? Nope.

Buffing while DD'ing? Better than who? Uh ... COR? No. Brd? No. Whm? No. Rdm? No. Sch? No. Who else?

Buffing while Healing While DD'ing? Better than COR/WHM? No. WHM? No. RDM? No.

I'm not trying to cut anyone off, but people keep saying that SMN is not the absolute worst. You say that it "Does a lot at once". But other jobs can to.

Who can Summoner actually do something better than? Specific example. Please. Even just one.

When 90% of FFXI players in pickups are absolute full-Aurore suck, yes, any good Summoner is going to look like an absolute god among them. But compare that good Summoner to a good anything else and what do you get aside from wasted potential? I mean, seriously. What is Summoner as a job doing that the same person could not be doing better on another job?

Aside from having fun. Which is a moot point. Everyone's said a million times that fun is fun and people can do what they want. Summoner will just mean doing it worse than they could be doing it on any other job in the game.

Edit: Protip: Sticking your fingers in your ears and proclaiming that your job is not completely frapping broken to the nth degree by not being able to benefit from Haste/Buffs is the absolute best way to keep from ever receiving a beneficial update.

[Korpg]

I'm just curious at what Summoner is better than ... anyone at.


Soloing. Certain. Notorious. Monsters.

Maybe not fast, but at least a lot safer than others, but you know what, you never look at that because most of you guys have at least 2 other mules to tri-box with, probably with your own versions of bots. So you can say you can "solo" anything.

But when you have nothing like that, SMN shines. We don't have to depend on anyone or anything except our abilities and our avatars.

[Cream_Soda]

So being good at soloing makes you great at what aspect in a party slot? Last I checked we were talking about smns in pts.

[Korpg]

So being good at soloing makes you great at what aspect in a party slot? Last I checked we were talking about smns in pts.

Did I quote you?

The request was, in case you can't read simple english:

"I'm just curious at what Summoner is better than ... anyone at."

Which I even quoted. When I responded.

Now shoo, Filth goes over here (http://www.bluegartr.com/)

[Aurara]

RDM is a better soloer than smn, just saying.
Edit: Also, what NMs are you talking about anyways lol?

[Cream_Soda]

My point still stands, unless you're concurring that they're only good in a solo situation (which even then, I'd say average because many jobs can solo better/faster than smn) and not in pt situations, which is been the subject of the last x number of pages.

[Razushu]

I don't die often

but when I do its because I'm red proccing.





Sarcasm intended

I haven't agreed with you so far but damn you can be funny

[Razushu]

lol to me it says:

BST and SMN don't need healers... so you don't need WHMs... so instead of inviting WHM get an entire pet party to kill something... and only invite the WAR (and probably NIN) for red procs because you don't have WHM so they need Apoc to keep getting back up.

However, instead of alllll of that you can just: NIN WAR WHM: kill whatever faster than a pet party.

The real question is even sans WHM why is a WAR dying constantly in a group full of SMNs?

[TybudX]

You aren't "lowering the output" of any normal, typical party of normal typical people. This is a load of cockamamie whatsit.


In any average group of average people, you don't lose anything. It's only when you reach the elitist tier when you might lose anything.


800 posts later and all we've learned is that elitists hate summoners.


You don't rate the job and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that I am useful as a support and have been since I started trying it 2 years ago. Am I the best? No. Am I good at it? Yes

You guys need to understand that it isn't about being 'elitist'. I'm going to say this because BG gets a bad rap by people who don't understand the culture. It's a community based on learning how to play FFXI better, and a big part of that is understanding game mechanics and how they work as part of a strategy. It's not a community for elitists, it's a community for people that understand that they need to change in order to be more successful. There are very few people who post on BG who have 'perfect' gear or always make 'perfect' parties. If they were perfect, there wouldn't be much point in playing anymore, right?

So this is it. When you discuss game mechanics, and specifically job performance, you need to understand how the job can perform at it's absolute peak. You have to remove player 'skill' from the discussion. It is hugely varied and impossible to quantify, and for practical purposes it has no place in an unbiased discussion. At the same time, comparing A to B when A is perfect and B has no idea how to gear a job properly doesn't make sense, either. Comparisons like that aren't going to get you any useful information.

This is what is going on right now, in this thread. There are people who are showing you that SMN can not perform it's 'duties' on the same level as any other job in the game, period. At best it is tied for healing capacity with other jobs that only have healing due to /whm or /rdm (COR). Aside from a few niche buffs (EA, PD) the buffs it does have are either not unique to the job (Haste, Stoneskin) or are significantly weaker than alternative job buffs, to the point where even if you add up the entire potential a SMN can add to a party, any other job capable of a similar role will perform better. This isn't a failing on either of you as players, it is a failing of the design of the SMN job. No matter how much you enjoy the job, no matter how good you are playing the job, it is still a sub-par job.


The WHM can't be that competent, the tank is a WAR/SAM looking for epeen damage.

Says the melee SMN. Hint: Killing faster is killing safer. If you have the healing power to support it (*coughWHM*cough*), use the strongest DD available. Winning in a shorther time frame offers less chance for damaging TP moves, which actually ends up using less healing overall.


Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

By your own logic, the only reason the WHM can't handle the TP feed is because you are meleeing on SMN. Solution: don't bring a SMN (namely you). The real 'problem' you are trying to invent is that you think WAR/SAM riding Hasso is an MP sponge, but it isn't for reasons I described above. In fact doing more damage per hit is essentially feeding less TP. If SMN melee was at all respectable, say Empyrean being on par with a DNC or even THF or PUP, it wouldn't be an issue. It's not. It's bottom of the barrel melee damage, on par with what a BLM or a SCH could put out.

So now what it comes down to for your twisted perception is this: if we already have DNC meleeing on a mob, or THF meleeing on a mob, or some other DD other than the 'tank' DD(s), then TP feed isn't an issue with the mob(s) you are fighting. Nobody cares if you melee on trash mobs. If it is a mob that has dangerous TP moves you will use less DDs on it. You will use one or two DDs, and they should be the best damaging DDs you have available. It doesn't need to be a WAR/SAM. Sometimes it's more practical to have a MNK, NIN, THF, DNC, DRK, hell, even a PLD as a tank, due to whichever type of dangerous TP move or magical attacks the mob in question does. In this case you aren't going to get to melee on SMN. Will you do more damage? Sure. Will you be the cause of the MP sponging going on? Absolutely.


You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

Epic lol. You aren't useful for anything at all in a real party (hint; the rest of the game).

[Razushu]

You guys need to understand that it isn't about being 'elitist'. I'm going to say this because BG gets a bad rap by people who don't understand the culture. It's a community based on learning how to play FFXI better, and a big part of that is understanding game mechanics and how they work as part of a strategy. It's not a community for elitists, it's a community for people that understand that they need to change in order to be more successful. There are very few people who post on BG who have 'perfect' gear or always make 'perfect' parties. If they were perfect, there wouldn't be much point in playing anymore, right?

So this is it. When you discuss game mechanics, and specifically job performance, you need to understand how the job can perform at it's absolute peak. You have to remove player 'skill' from the discussion. It is hugely varied and impossible to quantify, and for practical purposes it has no place in an unbiased discussion. At the same time, comparing A to B when A is perfect and B has no idea how to gear a job properly doesn't make sense, either. Comparisons like that aren't going to get you any useful information.

This is what is going on right now, in this thread. There are people who are showing you that SMN can not perform it's 'duties' on the same level as any other job in the game, period. At best it is tied for healing capacity with other jobs that only have healing due to /whm or /rdm (COR). Aside from a few niche buffs (EA, PD) the buffs it does have are either not unique to the job (Haste, Stoneskin) or are significantly weaker than alternative job buffs, to the point where even if you add up the entire potential a SMN can add to a party, any other job capable of a similar role will perform better. This isn't a failing on either of you as players, it is a failing of the design of the SMN job. No matter how much you enjoy the job, no matter how good you are playing the job, it is still a sub-par job.


Firstly I have no problem with the BG crowd(don't even know who you are really or what you guys do, if you're even one of them).

-I'm not using the following to try further my point please don't waste time yours and mine responding to it as so-

You can't really ignore skill because it works both ways. You could have a player on a 1st pick job who doesn't know a real thing about the job and isn't going to perform well at all or you could have a player on a 2nd-3rd pick job who geared the hell out of it and knows exactly what they're doing. In this case the 1st pick will perform poorer than the 3rd stringer. Individual skill will always be a large factor in the jobs performance, it's why finding people worth running with can be trial and error. I'd party with Al because he seems intelligent whereas I wouldn't party with Dallas because.. well he's Dallas and this is regardless of job selection, this shows that skill is an important factor in any pick.

-end-

I wouldn't compare a super A to a gimp B, because that just skews the numbers and invalidates the test. This is true most of the time other jobs in a support role will out perform SMN I've been saying that all along. But SMN can still perform the role well enough that the differnce is negligible(in normal setups not talking about the top 1% groups that cap haste etc. and most jobs aren't welcome in those anyway) the party will still run very smoothly.

[Cream_Soda]

You can't really ignore skill because it works both ways.
When comparing players, no

When comparing jobs, yes.

When we do comparisons, we're looking at the job's capabilities.

After that point, it's up to the player to fill the potential of the job.


So when I say x job is better than y job, it's because that job has a higher potential.

If you as a a pup for example are out dding a ukon war, then you're comparing players at this point, not jobs. and you would say I'm a better player than Xsephirothx, not pup is a better job than war

[Razushu]

When comparing players, no

When comparing jobs, yes.

When we do comparisons, we're looking at the job's capabilities.

After that point, it's up to the player to fill the potential of the job.


So when I say x job is better than y job, it's because that job has a higher potential.

If you as a a pup for example are out dding a ukon war, then you're comparing players at this point, not jobs. and you would say I'm a better player than Xsephirothx, not pup is a better job than war

Fair enough, I would still argue that unless you're sticking to theory skill will have to be considered at least at some stage.
then I guess the point I'm trying to argue(as immodest as it sounds) is on SMN I am a good enough player to close the gap in potential between SMN and the other support jobs to the point where the party doesn't suffer much from the difference will not be immediately noticable

[Sparthos]

Serious question; BST is that bad?

Probably seems like a trollbait question, but I really have no interaction with any BSTs, nobody in my group has it leveled (except for Maat's Cap maybe), I never ever do pickup groups for anything and I have had no reason to ever look into the job. I know BST is certainly non-optimal, but I didn't know it was that bad. :x

If you look at every job in terms of what they can do solo and in a party, BST has the capability to solo most of the "old" content using the ladybug using access to "infinite" pet restoral items (dawn mulsum) and reward. It's solo ability is well documented yet nothing that at least 3 other jobs couldn't do. Therein lies the problem with BST: it's an incomplete job.

Pets cannot keep up with real DD because they cannot be buffed, hasted or enhanced anywhere near as much as an actual DD occupying the slot. The BST itself is susceptible to the same failings as any DD (get too close, you die) yet cannot fall back on the pet for respectable damage because quite simply the tools do not exist.

BST is meant to be played in a way where the pet and master both are dealing damage yet SE fails to realize on anything difficult, the master doesn't want to be up front because BST isn't that good of a melee.

Besides TOTM weapons, pet DD gear is few and far between and unlike SMN or PUP which get attacks that scale up to HNMs, the BST is stuck using an unbuffed pet which most often will eat a ton of damage and die leaving you stuck waiting on the Call Beast timer. Even if you manage to keep the pet alive through Reward/Mulsums, the weaponskills the pets get are pathetic.

SE really doesn't care to buff pet classes and while SMN could use work, the job is functional on harder mobs and often used when mobs have strong AOEs. BST on the other hand is just a completely forgotten about class.

As much as people attempt to rewrite history post-Abyssea, SMN has always been a desired class at HNMs. Go back as far as Kirin '05 or Tiamats and you'll see people using Summoner.

[TybudX]

Fair enough, I would still argue that unless you're sticking to theory skill will have to be considered at least at some stage.

You need to apply 'player skill' to whatever your specific situation is. It has no bearing on game mechanics or job potential. The 'elitists (as Al puts it) have no way of knowing if the guy who plays MNK in your LS tends to go afk, or if your WHM doesn't know which TP moves cause what status effects on a player. They don't know if you have a PUP who regularly comes in tops in your parses. All of those comes down to 'player skill', and all of them are going to vary by an unlimited margin from one group to the next. You can not gain useful information about how the game works or where each ob actually stands in relation to one another if you try to apply 'player skill' to the base of information. you just end up with a bunch of useless data that is hugely flawed by individual performance.

Look at it this way. Say you have somebody who is awesome at SAM. Sure, he can out play other DDs in his LS, but if he leveled WAR, he would perform even better. The same holds true for you and SMN. If you applied what you know to playing BRD or playing COR your group as a whole would perform that much better, because those jobs provide stronger buffs, better damage (including from buffs), and are at worst tied with SMNs healing/support potential. We know this because we understand that SMNs maximum job potential is less than every other job's maximum job potential.

Another way to look at it is like a formula.

[(A + B + C) = D]*E

Where E is player skill. You need to understand D before you can find the true value of E.

[Greatguardian]

Soloing. Certain. Notorious. Monsters.

Maybe not fast, but at least a lot safer than others, but you know what, you never look at that because most of you guys have at least 2 other mules to tri-box with, probably with your own versions of bots. So you can say you can "solo" anything.

But when you have nothing like that, SMN shines. We don't have to depend on anyone or anything except our abilities and our avatars.

Oh, definitely. I know SMN can solo pretty darn well. That's where it shines, for sure.

I was talking in the implied context of a group/party situation, though. I guess that implication was missed, my mistake. For the record, I've never denied SMN being a great solo artist. Merely their contribution to party play.

[Cream_Soda]

You need to apply 'player skill' to whatever your specific situation is.Which is why you use both potential and the player you're looking to invite as factors.

Again though, this has bearing on which person to invite, not which job is better.

Only potential is needed to see the better job.


Sooooo, for example, there were people I was out DD'ing on corsair while lv'ing it. Those people, regardless of jobs, are people I would never invite to anything I was leading.


Ok let's say we're looking at the same player who knows how to play all of their jobs well and has good gear for their jobs.

This person has smn vs X job.

Should he come smn or X job?

This is the kind of comparison I'm making, not a good smn vs some scrub other job.

[Korpg]

Oh, definitely. I know SMN can solo pretty darn well. That's where it shines, for sure.

I was talking in the implied context of a group/party situation, though. I guess that implication was missed, my mistake. For the record, I've never denied SMN being a great solo artist. Merely their contribution to party play.

I think most people have accepted SMN's limitations in a party, a few would rather think otherwise.

In this age, if anyone wishes to not level another job, only have one job, then they have to realize that they won't be asked to do most anything they want in a party situation.

[Byrth]

Wait, stop now kids. I believe we've come to a consensus. Quickly lock the thread.

Also, I don't have that much of a problem with BST DD. If I had two changes I would make to the job:
1) Allow pets to receive party-wide buffs (including Samba). This also indirectly encourages pet burns, as Hastega is the only party-wide form of the spell, barring AoE'd Refueling or something.
2) Give BSTs a "Stance" that basically makes the pet auto-assist them like an avatar. As lame a complaint as this is, I'm really tired of hitting "Fight" all the time when my pet's damage is shitty compared to my own.

[Sparthos]

Wait, stop now kids. I believe we've come to a consensus. Quickly lock the thread.

Also, I don't have that much of a problem with BST DD. If I had two changes I would make to the job:
1) Allow pets to receive party-wide buffs (including Samba). This also indirectly encourages pet burns, as Hastega is the only party-wide form of the spell, barring AoE'd Refueling or something.
2) Give BSTs a "Stance" that basically makes the pet auto-assist them like an avatar. As lame a complaint as this is, I'm really tired of hitting "Fight" all the time when my pet's damage is shitty compared to my own.

My problem with BST DD is that the job is grossly underpowered. Buffs would be a start to making pet jobs more sturdy and able to keep up with more basic melee but right now the job feels and plays like a class still being developed even though classes like BLU, DNC and COR are far younger than it and have more intricacies.

The familiars 76+ chew through weak mobs but even with their huge HP pools, they get wrecked by (H)NMs and are susceptible to being crippled by multiple debuffs. While it's amazing to see stuff like a Byakko solo using Yuly or doing the old add-on missions pet-style, that stuff is 75 content and it's no surprise a lvl90 pet can crush old content.

The class needs some kind of JA that gives the pet haste/acc/att/crithit rate in exchange for weakening the master. A reverse JA for the more DD oriented BST could easily a secondary option. The class has a serious lack of attack oriented gear for the pet and the "Ready" abilities are currently pathetic. What's the current max haste a BST can give their pet? 9%?

Separating roboront/poultices from the Reward timer would also make healing the pet of status afflictions less of a pain in the ass. Having to choose between healing or status cures is the same issue plaguing DNC so I see no reason why there even should be a choice as you have to pay for Roborants/Poultices in the first place.

Finally, giving the pet small sphere effects that benefit anyone in range would help to bring some variety to using different familiars. Im not even going to touch Charm because outside of an event friendly to Charming mobs, a party-oriented BST would be tied down to using jugpets.

[Azagthoth]

I think the funniest thing about this thread is that the people arguing on behalf of SMN are self-defeating in the sense that they're not portraying SMN as a job that needs to be buffed. It would be more beneficial to take a look a SMN's weaknesses and come up with ideas to improve the job's capabilities.

[Razushu]

I think the funniest thing about this thread is that the people arguing on behalf of SMN are self-defeating in the sense that they're not portraying SMN as a job that needs to be buffed. It would be more beneficial to take a look a SMN's weaknesses and come up with ideas to improve the job's capabilities.

At the risk of restarting the argument, I think we all know SMN needs improvement but needs improvement=/= useless*. We could use new Rages another boost to our wards(make them scale up with levels better) and BP timer is hurting us(I think BP timer is partially to stop us applying like 10 buff to a party at once but jsut putting a cap on the amount of buff we can give can fix that)


* I know no one is literally saying SMN is useless but saying we're bottom of the barrel adds up to the same.

[Greatguardian]

Even bottom of the barrel played well is above average. Though, that really says more about the average in FFXI than anything else. Recognize that distinction (It's not you, it's the job) and the entire disagreement is over.

As for making Summoner at all respectable as a DD job (their only solid role. They suck ass as healers and have terrible buffs), removing the cap on BP timer reduction and allowing buffs to hit Avatars would pretty much solve 90% of their issues off the bat.

[Azagthoth]

Even bottom of the barrel played well is above average. Though, that really says more about the average in FFXI than anything else. Recognize that distinction (It's not you, it's the job) and the entire disagreement is over.

As for making Summoner at all respectable as a DD job (their only solid role. They suck ass as healers and have terrible buffs), removing the cap on BP timer reduction and allowing buffs to hit Avatars would pretty much solve 90% of their issues off the bat.

Yeah, I agree completely.

Razushu, I wasn't meaning to come off dickish either; I just think that your time would be better spent trying to improve the job if you want to change people's opinions about it. It's a win-win situation for you.

[Malamasala]

As for making Summoner at all respectable as a DD job (their only solid role. They suck ass as healers and have terrible buffs), removing the cap on BP timer reduction and allowing buffs to hit Avatars would pretty much solve 90% of their issues off the bat.

I disagree. But not in the sense that you are wrong, but that it is by far not enough to solve 90% of the issues. (You are for example missing that pets have lower DMG rating, slow attack speed and very little haste gear, so you'd be way behind in DoT to begin with. In addition removing the cap only, will just allow for a little more reduction but will not solve the underlying problem of global timers. Give a BLM a 20 sec global timer on all spells and you'll notice that it is not the 45 seconds that is the problem, it is the fact you are restricted to one at a time spell)

[Korpg]

I disagree. But not in the sense that you are wrong, but that it is by far not enough to solve 90% of the issues. (You are for example missing that pets have lower DMG rating, slow attack speed and very little haste gear, so you'd be way behind in DoT to begin with. In addition removing the cap only, will just allow for a little more reduction but will not solve the underlying problem of global timers. Give a BLM a 20 sec global timer on all spells and you'll notice that it is not the 45 seconds that is the problem, it is the fact you are restricted to one at a time spell)

Well, your solution calls for more limitations, instead of fixing stuff.

Why stop there, why not give WHM a 20 second global timer on spells.

Or any DD a 20 second swing.

That will really put things into prospective. Fixes SMN's problem, doesn't it? >.>

[Razushu]

A great way to help fix SMN would be to give us a BP delay system broken up by level as well as rage/ward. In most cases Avatar's get 1 ward and 1 rage in a 10 level range i.e. level 20-29. some of these are still nice at level 75+ but are useless because of shared time with other pacts. Seperated timer's could be applied to each of these(still global across avatars though) to these with lower level pact's having shorter recast Possibly like so:

Pacts gained lower than lvl10 recast 10 seconds

Pacts gained at 10-19 recast 20 seconds

Pacts gained at 20-29 recast 20 seconds

Pacts gained at 30-39 recast 30 seconds

Pacts gained at 40-49 recast 40 seconds

Pacts gained at 50-59 recast 50 seconds

Pacts gained at 60-69 recast 60 seconds

Pacts gained at 70-79 recast 60 seconds

Pacts gained at 80-89 recast 70 seconds

Pacts gained at 90-99 recast 80 seconds

BP delay could be reworked like so: minimum recast=tier cost x.75(rounded up where applicable)

ex. a rage gained at level 23(burning strike) would have a max reduction of -5 secs.

This would enable us to get use out of some of our lower pacts without sacrificing our high level pacts while preventing us from spamming them.

[Razushu]

Yeah, I agree completely.

Razushu, I wasn't meaning to come off dickish either; I just think that your time would be better spent trying to improve the job if you want to change people's opinions about it. It's a win-win situation for you.

It's cool you didn't

[Byrth]

Thank you for your speedy action last time, Alhanelem. I have two more cases this time, I think.

All of the information from this post got sucked onto ffxiclopedia without citation on any of the pages, as far as I can find:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103597-Temporary-Random-Facts-Thread?p=4655960&viewfull=1#post4655960
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php?title=Category%3AAtma&action=historysubmit&diff=1340880&oldid=1340875
User Nanashi14

I mean, I get the whole "YouTube"esque "We'll have takedown policies, but it's your responsibility to report abuse" method of increasing site traffic. It's kind of a pain though, and you guys aren't working on FFXIclopedia anymore so you could probably start legitimately questioning where the information comes from.

I also hypothesized an unreported drop in a BG Voidwatch thread a month or so ago. It ended up getting mirrored on both Gamer Escape and ffxiclopedia. I suspect that the Gamer Escape contributor was pulling it from FFXIclopedia rather than BGwiki, but the FFXIclopedia contributor was likely pulling it directly from BG wiki. He probably wouldn't had added it if he'd seen the number of assumptions I had to make to put it on that NM in the thread from the forums. There have, as far as I know, still been no reports (NA or JP) of the drop (staff) off Arch Angra Mainyu.
BGWiki: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/index.php?title=Arch_Angra_Mainyu&action=historysubmit&diff=158178&oldid=158012
FFXIclopedia: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php?title=Arch_Angra_Mainyu&oldid=1337623
Gamer Escape: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dynamis_-_Beaucedine&action=historysubmit&diff=1293258&oldid=1293253

In both cases, it was added around the time of a bunch of other drops, meaning they actually likely lifted all the information straight from BG or BG wiki. Furthermore, the second case was a contributor with 20k+ edits.

[Dallas]

lol to me it says:

BST and SMN don't need healers... so you don't need WHMs... so instead of inviting WHM get an entire pet party to kill something... and only invite the WAR (and probably NIN) for red procs because you don't have WHM so they need Apoc to keep getting back up.

However, instead of alllll of that you can just: NIN WAR WHM: kill whatever faster than a pet party.

Congratulations, you can read pet job, unlike a lot of people. BTW, is the WAR finally pulling the "only in Abyssea card?" I purposely left out: if we're outside of of Abyssea, WAR can take a hike. :D

You did take the bait. Thanks! What's wrong with the NIN WAR WHM plan? Nothing at all, except that for once in almost 900 posts someone BESIDES ME admitted that lowman is the best setup in Abyssea. No BRD. No DNC. You can't give those two jobs any credit for boosting the power of the WAR because THEY AREN'T THERE. Your WAR is also holding back so the NIN can tank.

SMN and BST are excellent in the absence of buffs. Your party setup has a complete absence of buffs. Your WAR isn't the top of the totem pole and pet jobs aren't the bottom.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What.

Obligatory filler for character limit here.

[Dallas]

The real question is even sans WHM why is a WAR dying constantly in a group full of SMNs?

Take 2 SMN and a WAR to Hrosshvalur. Use whatever tricks you can to win AND get red proc. You'll figure it out REALLY fast why WAR is a throwaway job. I'd prefer you find one of the WAR in this thread, just to spread around the knowledge.


What.

Obligatory filler for character limit here.

Neisan, you aren't participating enough. Only 400 posts ago EVERY WAR had Ukon and travelled with a BRD DNC and WHM who do nothing but increase the WARs damage and keep them alive.

[Coldbrand]

claustrum is clearly the best staff in the game because

[Neisan_Quetz]

So your argument is procing on a mob that uses a Tp move roughly every 5 seconds really? I mean, really?

[Dallas]

So your argument is procing on a mob that uses a Tp move roughly every 5 seconds really? I mean, really?

Nope, proc on a mob that resets hate every attack.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't even...

[Dallas]

Then figure it out. Screw the WAR, go grab a 2nd SMN and try duoing the jerk fish.

[Neisan_Quetz]

.. Why? I've proc'd on the ugly fish before on WAR, so... what's your point? It's not even a hard mob and the KI drop rate was increased... I don't see the point in taking longer to kill something just to use a Smn.

[Dallas]

You obviously either don't have any clue what question I was answering, or don't know the mob.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I do know the mob, retard fish in Vunk, very difficult to proc on? Yes, impossible? No, do you need a summoner for it? No.

I don't think anyone has a clue wtf you're talking about half the time honestly.

[Fiarlia]

I don't think English is his native language.

....At least I hope not.

[Leonlionheart]

Congratulations, you can read pet job, unlike a lot of people. BTW, is the WAR finally pulling the "only in Abyssea card?" I purposely left out: if we're outside of of Abyssea, WAR can take a hike. :D

You did take the bait. Thanks! What's wrong with the NIN WAR WHM plan? Nothing at all, except that for once in almost 900 posts someone BESIDES ME admitted that lowman is the best setup in Abyssea. No BRD. No DNC. You can't give those two jobs any credit for boosting the power of the WAR because THEY AREN'T THERE. Your WAR is also holding back so the NIN can tank.

SMN and BST are excellent in the absence of buffs. Your party setup has a complete absence of buffs. Your WAR isn't the top of the totem pole and pet jobs aren't the bottom.

take 2 smn: get 1 red proc

wait a minute

take no brd: get yellow EVERY TIME

wait a second

take a pet party: get yellow ever

hold up

~end sarcasm~

take 5 smn, or a pet party: take 45 minutes to kill anything

somethings not right here...

take 1 war 1 nin 1 whm 1 brd 1 blu 1 blm
get red
get yellow
kill in 5 minutes or less, without trouble at all

I think we've found a winner!

[Korpg]

take 2 smn: get 1 red proc

wait a minute

take no brd: get yellow EVERY TIME

wait a second

take a pet party: get yellow ever

hold up

~end sarcasm~

take 5 smn, or a pet party: take 45 minutes to kill anything

somethings not right here...

take 1 war 1 nin 1 whm 1 brd 1 blu 1 blm
get red
get yellow
kill in 5 minutes or less, without trouble at all

I think we've found a winner!

This is the most sense made in the last 20 posts.

Anyone have any idea as to what Dallas is talking about?

[Alhanelem]

Back again! it's the most sense made, but it's not a lot of sense made, because i've done many pet burn fights, and they don't "take 45 minutes (or some other arbitrary time" to kill something that anyone else kills in "5 minutes." It might take a little longer, yes, but nothing absurd like that.

Random maybe bad example: Take the hydra boss in Walk of Echoes. I've done this WoE run multiple times both with pet burns (which were done by JP, oddly enough) and with conventional party setups. Regardless of method, no kill took drastically more or less time than another. Yes, there was variance. But not a 9 to 1 difference or anything near that extreme. In fact, the pet burn group killed the boss easily with no deaths, where there were always a few deaths in the "normal" setup. In the pet burns there were a few summoners with the BSTs. Since there's no crappy-ass proccing system in WoE (well, actually there does seem to be one, but only red proc and even that is rare) limiting potential party setups, the pet burn strategy actually worked better, not really having to worry about any of the mob's TP moves or feeding it TP.

I realize WOE isn't something everyone does every day, but it does represent a fight that isn't held down by procs, and it represents an example of pet burning not being worse than any other strategy. To me, it reinforces how the proc system may mean more shinies, but it ruins the gameplay (for me, at least).

To tie into the melee SMN crap, even in the Ukon WAR comparison, the WAR was obviously substantially higher in damage, but it wasn't 900% higher (e.g. to kill something in 5 minutes vs 45).

[Korpg]

Back again! it's the most sense made, but it's not a lot of sense made, because i've done many pet burn fights, and they don't "take 45 minutes (or some other arbitrary time" to kill something that anyone else kills in "5 minutes." It might take a little longer, yes, but nothing absurd like that.

Random maybe bad example: Take the hydra boss in Walk of Echoes. I've done this WoE run multiple times both with pet burns (which were done by JP, oddly enough) and with conventional party setups. Regardless of method, no kill took drastically more or less time than another. Yes, there was variance. But not a 9 to 1 difference or anything near that extreme. In fact, the pet burn group killed the boss easily with no deaths, where there were always a few deaths in the "normal" setup. In the pet burns there were a few summoners with the BSTs. Since there's no crappy-ass proccing system in WoE (well, actually there does seem to be one, but only red proc and even that is rare) limiting potential party setups, the pet burn strategy actually worked better, not really having to worry about any of the mob's TP moves or feeding it TP.

I realize WOE isn't something everyone does every day, but it does represent a fight that isn't held down by procs, and it represents an example of pet burning not being worse than any other strategy. To me, it reinforces how the proc system may mean more shinies, but it ruins the gameplay (for me, at least).

To tie into the melee SMN crap, even in the Ukon WAR comparison, the WAR was obviously substantially higher in damage, but it wasn't 900% higher (e.g. to kill something in 5 minutes vs 45).

Even solo, it doesn't take me more than 20 minutes to kill anything. I doubt that with pet burns, it would take more than 7 minutes.

But the point is, it does take longer to kill something with a pet burn than it does with a proc burn. But the advantage of pet burns are, little to no deaths (only time anyone dies on a pet burn is if there is a very damaging AoE move and the SMN happens to be in there trying to use BP at that time) vs a higher risk of death with a "normal" burn.

What proc burns bring to the table is increased drop rates. That is all.

But when it comes to killing ability, pet burns = proc burns.

[Greatguardian]

Color me uninformed, and that is very possible considering I don't do anything in pet burns, but the only pet burns I've seen take significantly more people than a "standard" kill team would. Can 3 Bst/Smns handle Kirin and other Shijin? Or the WoE Hydra?

If they can, that's cool. I'm just saying, the only pet burns I've ever seen come in the form of either 2-3 Bst/Smns kiting the crap out of everything and taking an hour, or 12-18 Bst/Smns just throwing pet bodies at things till they keel over. Can a low number of Bst/Smns kill strong NMs without resorting to Kite/DoT tactics?

[Alhanelem]

What proc burns bring to the table is increased drop rates. That is all.And greater exclusion of various jobs from being able to participate in any capacty other than standing by and watching.

If people are going to get the procs every time (or most every time) and get more drops, then why not just give us freedom to kill shiat however we want and just have higher bleeping drop rates?

Proccing limits strategies and discourages creativity or otherwise "fun" play, and encourages killing everything the same way for the sake of getting more drops.

It's not the only monkey wrench in pet killing, but the most annoying one.

Monsters that absorb physical during TP moves are obvioulsy more difficult to pet burn, because pulling pets off the mob to avoid healing it is going to make the monster move around. It can still be done, but it's harder (and will take forever if you DON'T avoid healing it.

I have seen summoners duo the Scars iron giants, and I even saw one summoner atetmpting to solo it, and he almost succeeded, but got caught in an AoE that happened at a bad time.

[Greatguardian]

WAR, NIN, and MNK are the 3 strongest jobs in Abyssea anyways. If a group is top-tier and using the most efficient method to kill things as possible, the proc system would not have affected the invite order at all.

If a group is not top-tier, and/OR just does not care about using the most efficient method possible, then nothing has changed and non-proc jobs will still get invites.

QED: Proc system does absolutely nothing to affect the invite hierarchy in Abyssea. Strawman less.

[Alhanelem]

QED: Proc system does absolutely nothing to affect the invite hierarchy in Abyssea. Strawman less. It totally does. You think "top tier" groups are the only ones who only invite certain jobs?

If you're not a WAR, NIN, MNK, WHM, BRD, BLM or BLU, you do not get taken on any pick-up NM kill. That's less than half of all jobs viably accepted in abyssea.

If you don't think this is a problem, you're crazy. It's not a strawman, it's a fair logical argument. The Proc system in abyssea encourages bandwagoning and discourages varying strategies to kill a mob, regardless of job combination.

[Cream_Soda]

Proccing limits strategies and discourages creativity or otherwise "fun" play, and encourages killing everything the same way for the sake of getting more drops.
Well, with how many more times you'll have to kill each NM, you'll have plenty of room for all that extra fun you love so much.

ITT: You can't have fun and be efficient at the same time.

[Byrth]

I think Abyssea was designed to encourage people level more jobs specifically so this kind of argument wouldn't be an issue anymore.

* The time it takes to level jobs is dramatically reduced. I personally have only leveled job that were already 75 before the expansions, but I've heard it's possible to go from 30-90 in a day or two.
* The time it takes to gear jobs is dramatically reduced. I farmed a full set of SMN AF3+2 faster than my YY Robe.
* It's easier than ever to store stuff, so your inventory isn't hurting carrying around sets for jobs you don't use often. Porter moogles, dramatic inventory increases, being able to d-box R/Ex gear you don't currently use, etc. Anyone that thinks they suffer from inventory issues these days actually suffers from poor planning.

SE has never been particular sympathetic towards sentimental player attachment to certain jobs. I can't think of any events that didn't both have a "best" set of jobs and also a "lol, why would you bring that?" set. Their opinion always seems to have been, "We made a job system. Go change your job."

[Greatguardian]

I should have just included And/OR in the first line too. That pretty much clears it up. I don't care how low-tier a group is, if they are interested in doing things the most efficient way possible than they were always best off with WAR/NIN/MNK/WHM anyways. A good player on SMN would have always been more effective as a good player on MNK.

If anything, the trigger system has benefited BLM and BLU a great deal. Summoner being unpopularz is absolutely nothing new. Why? Because Summoner is bottom tier in group situations outside of their 3-4 legitimate strategic uses. Was before Abyssea, was during Abyssea, is after Abyssea.

Edit: What Byrth said.

[Alhanelem]

I think Abyssea was designed to encourage people level more jobs specifically so this kind of argument wouldn't be an issue anymore.Yeah, forcing everyone to level every bandwagon job is a great idea! Once we level every job, we can forget about the other 14 of them and use just the ones I listed!

Why level a job if no one will ever let you use it?

We shouldn't be forced to level up XYZ job just to be able to play. There are 20 jobs out there, and all of them should be useable in any given event.

The funny thing is SE also didn't orginally expect everyone to level a whole bunch of jobs.

[Cream_Soda]

Make your own group if you like the job that much. Problem solved? You feel this way, I'm sure you can find a small group of people who care about playing [insert job here] more than they do about the drops and you guys can go circle jerk all day.

[Cream_Soda]

We shouldn't be forced to level up XYZ job just to be able to play. There are 20 jobs out there, and all of them should be useable in any given event.
They are usable, they're just not desired.

You can take a group of undesired jobs and get the same results. It just takes a lot longer to get KIs and drops when not proccing. Does that mean it's unusable? no. They're perfectly usable, just not the best option. There's a difference.

[Alhanelem]

who care about playing [insert job here] more than they do about the dropsAlas, it seems like everyone only cares about more drops, completely ignoring their inability to make use of most of those drops.

The proc system doesn't encourage people to level every job, it only encourages them to level the 6 jobs needed to cover every red and yellow proc and all the blues except archery and marksmanship, and you can just avoid those by not killing during piercing time.


They are usable, they're just not desired.useable desired, whatever farking term you want to use. They should all be desired. If any job isn't desired, then there's a problem with game balance in general or the current metagame. Right now at least it's a combination of both.

[Greatguardian]

Well hey, if you don't care about drops, and can find a couple other people who don't care about drops, you're free to do as much Abyssea content as you please in a little group of people getting practically no drops. No one's stopping you but yourself.

[Cream_Soda]

Killing the monster using X strategy is only fun so many times.

Sure, I killed Jailer of Foritude on mnk solo. Took an hour and a half at 75. Is it going to continue to be fun continuing that process time and time again until you get the drop? If it is, then you go do that. If not, then pick up something more efficient.

[Cream_Soda]

Well hey, if you don't care about drops, and can find a couple other people who don't care about drops, you're free to do as much Abyssea content as you please in a little group of people getting practically no drops. No one's stopping you but yourself.
Exactly, you're not the only person who feels this way. Start a group with them and your complaints go away.

[Alhanelem]

Well hey, if you don't care about drops, and can find a couple other people who don't care about drops, you're free to do as much Abyssea content as you please in a little group of people getting practically no drops. No one's stopping you but yourself.
We shouldn't have to not get drops just because we chose not to play the bandwagon drops. Hence why the proc system is a pile of bullshiat. Instead of horrible drop rates with no proc and extremely high drop rates with proc, just get rid of the damn procs, have drop rates in the middle, and everyone can get their stuff and have fun doing it.


Exactly, you're not the only person who feels this way. Start a group with them and your complaints go away. Our complaints don't go away because we're still not accepted for any events or activites unless we go out of our way to find other people who feel like outcasts the same as us, and nobody likes you as a result. Just look at any BST or pet job LS.

Every job should be good enough to be accepted at any event by the majority of the playerbase. Why should I have to solo or find other rejected losers to be able to enjoy my favorite jobs? Why shouldn't they be effective enough to be part of any mainstream group? Better yet, why not just remove the other 3/4 of the jobs from the game and just have the 5 that everyone plays?

[Greatguardian]

We shouldn't have to not get drops just because we chose not to play the bandwagon drops. Hence why the proc system is a pile of bullshiat. Instead of horrible drop rates with no proc and extremely high drop rates with proc, just get rid of the damn procs, have drop rates in the middle, and everyone can get their stuff and have fun doing it.

Okay no, stop. Just stop. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say:

"I do not care about being efficient, I care about playing the way I want."

And then say:

"It's not fair that my less efficient way of doing things isn't as efficient as the most efficient way of doing things. The way I want to play should be within reasonable proximity to the best way to play, no matter how inefficient the former is."

You want to get efficient drops? Play efficiently.

You want to eschew drops (You don't care about those, right?), so that you can play the significantly less efficient way that you want to? Play your way and don't get as many drops.

Just don't come crying that your inefficient petburn isn't getting as much done as the War/Nin/Whm supergroups.

[Alhanelem]

Okay no, stop. Just stop. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say:
You absolutely can. Proc systemc auses basically every fight to be beaten the exact same way. This is a problem.

You absoultely should be able to play the job you want and still be efficient. The fact that this is not possible means that there are major imbalances in the system. You can kill efficiently (time wise) and sitll get shiat for drops because of the proc system. If we found a good way to kill something with this that and the other job, why should we not be rewarded for it the same as anyone else?

This is specifically the abyssea proc system, by the way. The other proc systems have somewhat addressed this problem because any job can proc.

Who the hell said I don't care about drops? Everyone wants drops. The problem is we have a system that does not allow everyone to participate and also get drops. If you're not a WAR/MNK/NIN and you're killing anything in abssea, SE has basically said "fark you, you have to play one of these jobs or you don't get shiat, no matter how strong you are as a job/player."

The most amusing thing is you people arguing for the proc system are the ones playing the jobs that benefit most from its existence.


Just don't come crying that your inefficient petburn isn't getting as much done as the War/Nin/Whm supergroups.
1) pet burns don't have to be inefficient
2) this isn't just about pet burns, it's about all 14 of the jobs not needed for proc
3) No one job should be so drastically better than another, and this is an indicator of balance problems
4) Everyone should be able to participate in any given event to a level that makes them accepted.
5) You shouldn't get drastically less drops just because you didn't level MNK/SAM/NIN. THF and treasure hunter is fine, because that isn't drastic and it is relevant to the job. Any other disparity in drop rates depending on job needs to be removed from the game on the quick fast.

[omegadevil85]

In all honesty the proc system is awesome but as always it's flawed. like most things in the game i get the idea of trying something new to appease the "Loners" in the game bsts that dont' have any friends or pups that can't get a party invite, black mages that had to solo pets from 40-75 etc... i honestly love voidwatch 1. it doesn't discriminate, you either get something nice or you don't. and 2. if you don't have all jobs with all possible means of doing everything you're fucked and in voidwatch since you're limited to 18 jobs and there's 20 jobs well you'll always be fucked. it's absolutely brilliant. but coming back to the topic at hand! even if you don't have a bandwagon job you should level one... plain and simple. sure it's crap that you're being forced to do something just to get something but nothing goes free... i had to level warrior! i hate and despise warrior but i knew that it had to be done and now i've got all kinds of gear and all kinds of crap... for my mule... cuz that's what i leveled warrior on but the point is i got it =D

[Greatguardian]

Christ, it's like trying to tell a guy that he can't expect to instant-win a SF tournament using only Dan.

You are absolutely not entitled to being equivalent or within close proximity to the Best by virtue of paying for the game.

WAR/NIN/WHM/MNK/whatever supergroups are not *Just* killing the monster. They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it. You are merely killing it. Therein lies the difference. If you don't care about striking the monster's weak points even though it gives you a reward for doing so, then just kill it. You can still get drops. Just not as much as the group that takes the strategic victory as well as the win.

This "I'm entitled to be the best even if I'm doing things with absolutely no regard to efficiency and actual ability" attitude is bollocks. It's spoiled at best.

[Alhanelem]

WAR/NIN/WHM/MNK/whatever supergroups are not *Just* killing the monster. They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it.All jobs should be able to do these things. Other proc systems (e.g. dynamis) are minimally dependent on jobs.


You are absolutely not entitled to being equivalentI absolutely am. Every job should be viable and able accepted by any group no matter how elite they are (Assuming that they are capable players using their job to their fullest). If they cannot be, then they need to be adjusted until they are.

No one said ANYTHING about ability. If you suck, of course you're not entitled to stuff. But if you are intelligent and throughly skilled, you should be able to play efficiently with a PLD SAM SMN BRD DRK as you could with a MNK NIN DNC WAR WHM BLM or whatever you can think of. If you are wielding your job to its fullest, it should be competitive with the other jobs. If summoner is vastly weaker to every other job, then it needs to be improved. this is a simple fact. We are not ignoring efficiency, we still want to be as efficient as we reasonably can.

You simply are a player of the best jobs and don't want anyone else to be touch you, or have that taken away from you. That's all there is to it.


attitude is bollocks. It's spoiled at best.It's not bollocks, nor is it spoiled. Why is it spoiled of me to expect there to be some semblance of balance between the 20 jobs?

(god dang spellchecker...)

TL;DR: you basically have said: "If you want to play a sucky job and suck, that's your choice. I'll be over here with the awesome crowd, being awesome." Typical elitist nonsense. You are selfish and are determined to protect that.

[Alhanelem]

Just not as much as the group that takes the strategic victory as well as the win.Seperate post for this. How is using pets to kill the monster, or using rangers or using any other job that kills something a different way not "strategic?" How is using the same three jobs to win everything with the most drops more strategic? Pet burning is one strategy. using the various abilities of job B, C, D, and E is another strategy. Doing this and that with jobs X, Y, and Z is another strategy. And why should we get less drops because we used a different set of jobs from you? You do not deserve more drops just because you're playing the currently-most-popular-jobs.

Eilitists will always defend their ability to be elitists and call anyone who wants more but isn't an elitist "selfish."

[Razushu]

Christ, it's like trying to tell a guy that he can't expect to instant-win a SF tournament using only Dan.

You are absolutely not entitled to being equivalent or within close proximity to the Best by virtue of paying for the game.

WAR/NIN/WHM/MNK/whatever supergroups are not *Just* killing the monster. They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it. You are merely killing it. Therein lies the difference. If you don't care about striking the monster's weak points even though it gives you a reward for doing so, then just kill it. You can still get drops. Just not as much as the group that takes the strategic victory as well as the win.

This "I'm entitled to be the best even if I'm doing things with absolutely no regard to efficiency and actual ability" attitude is bollocks. It's spoiled at best.

It's not a matter of entitlement. Although yes in a well designed game all jobs should be close to one another in terms of percieved usefullness."They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it" you say this like it's down to the players skill and not the poorly laid out proc system. There's 20 jobs not 6, so yes all jobs should equally able to proc. If not you have the poorly designed system. If it was just SMN, PUP, BST and DRG able to proc with pet attacks and these alone are the only procs. the forums would be overloaded with "I leveled X job that was top tier, and now I have to level something I don't want to to get good drops"

[Alhanelem]

It's not a matter of entitlement. Although yes in a well designed game all jobs should be close to one another in terms of percieved usefullness."They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it" you say this like it's down to the players skill and not the poorly laid out proc system. There's 20 jobs not 6, so yes all jobs should equally able to proc. If not you have the poorly designed system. If it was just SMN, PUP, BST and DRG able to proc with pet attacks alone the forums would be overloaded with "I leveled X job that was top tier, and now I have to level something I don't want to to get good drops"
Thank you for saying that more eloquently than I could ever hope to.

[Greatguardian]

Because ability only refers to players, right?

No. Jobs have ability levels too. Some have more abilities than others. This is not some democracy where everyone gets to be special little snowflakes that are all equal and good in their own special ways.

Byrth already made a great point about the attitude SE has shown over the years. It's not like one group of jobs has always been best for everything. But, every event carries with it a set of jobs that are the best for it, and a set of jobs that have absolutely no reason being there.

Why is this doable? Because we're allowed to bloody change our jobs whenever we want. If Summoner sucks in Abyssea, nothing is stopping you or anyone else from changing to WAR and doing Abyssea on that. If WAR sucks in a BCNM, nothing is stopping them from switching to RDM or BLM and doing said BCNM on that.

Tout your idealism all you want. That's not how the game works. That's not how the game has ever worked. That's not how the game will likely ever work in the future. And no, this has nothing to do with me, or my jobs. I don't need to push Summoner out of the way to stay on top. I'd welcome the company. If every job became capable of doing everything? As im-bloody-possible as that concept is, I'd welcome it because it means I'd be able to dick around on whatever I want and still get shit done.

Some people have the absolute worst attitudes when it comes to "BG/Elite" players, I swear. "You are only saying Summoner sucks because you want to stay on top and blah blah want to be exclusive". I hear it all the time and it's never made a lick of sense. I would not give a shit if everyone had 10 Emp weapons and was flat out better than I was.

What bugs me is this self-righteous belief that everyone has the innate right to be the very best, like no one ever was, without actually doing things in the strategically best manner. I mean, even a bunch of pet-burns can gear themselves up. They'd just take significantly more time because they're doing things less efficiently, and they'd be less potent when geared up because frankly the jobs suck. Hybrid jobs are always going to be half-assed at any one particular skill, and no one really needs multiple skillsets in a single party slot because we know how to optimize our parties with specialists.

Deal with the consequences of being inefficient or buckle up and do things more efficiently.

Edit: There are 20 jobs in this game that fill 3-4 basic roles. They will never, ever be equal to one another in a given situation. The challenge is figuring out what combinations are best for the situation at hand, and then using that to your advantage. SE has never, ever advocated trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and doing every single event in the game on a single job. You are just going to have to live with that.

[Alhanelem]

No. Jobs have ability levels too. Some have more abilities than others.Jobs don't have to all be the same to have balanced power. Every job, being played to its absolute fullest, should be able to be reasonably efficient (in a group setting- FFXI is designed around group play.)

If This job or that job is not accepted because it's Inefficient or for whatever reason, it should be adjusted such that said problem is rectified. To argue otherwise is basically saying "No, my job is the top tier job and I want it to stay top tier and all you losers who play other jobs to keep sucking!"



What bugs me is this self-righteous belief that everyone has the innate right to be the very best,I do NOT have any kind of "self-righteous belief" that I have an innate right to be the best AS A PLAYER. I DO, however feel I have an innate right for the jobs that I play to all be balanced enough such that if I am actually capable of being the very best, that I am able to be.

There is NO good reason in the UNIVERSE why the jobs can't be more balanced as jobs. Player skill is a completely totally seperate topic, is not being argued here, and has nothing to do with the problem at hand.



Deal with the consequences of being inefficient or buckle up and do things more efficiently.Again, if I am not capable of being more efficient, not because of my ability as a player but because of a flaw or problem with a given job, then that flaw or problem that is hindering efficiency needs to be fixed. This is not being self-righteous. This is asking for job balance, something that anyone who plays the game should be expecting from it.

No other MMO i've played has 2/3rds of its classes deemed "inefficient" or worthless, and any class that is found to be such is generally adjusted in the future to address those problems.

[Byrth]

This thread regressed from relative silence to caps and large font. I disapprove. >:-(

SE makes strategic events, and what job you play is part of that strategy. That's just how the game is.

[Greatguardian]

This thread regressed from relative silence to caps and large font. I disapprove. >:-(

SE makes strategic events, and what job you play is part of that strategy. That's just how the game is.

^. Seriously. We finally had some sort of consensus going here for a while.

FFXI was never, ever designed to allow any one player to use the same one job for everything in the world. There are 20 jobs, filling 3-4 roles (DD, Healer, Buffer, Hybrid), that are designed with enough quirks and combinations (See: Subjob system) to allow them to be adapted to fit a variety of different situations effectively.

Picking and choosing what main/sub job is best for the situation at hand is, and always has been, a fundamental part of FFXI gameplay.

[Razushu]

This thread regressed from relative silence to caps and large font. I disapprove. >:-(

SE makes strategic events, and what job you play is part of that strategy. That's just how the game is.

Outside of weird little niche fights, where a specific job might be needed. It shouldn't matter what specific jobs are brought as long as the main roles are filled(DD, Tank, Healer, Buffer/support). If it does matter then there is imbalance in the game and the jobs should be adjusted

[Korpg]

Color me uninformed, and that is very possible considering I don't do anything in pet burns, but the only pet burns I've seen take significantly more people than a "standard" kill team would. Can 3 Bst/Smns handle Kirin and other Shijin? Or the WoE Hydra?

If they can, that's cool. I'm just saying, the only pet burns I've ever seen come in the form of either 2-3 Bst/Smns kiting the crap out of everything and taking an hour, or 12-18 Bst/Smns just throwing pet bodies at things till they keel over. Can a low number of Bst/Smns kill strong NMs without resorting to Kite/DoT tactics?

Actually, yes, 3 BSTs and/or SMNs can trio most any old content in less than 15 minutes, the only one that would give them trouble would be Kirin. And only from Kirin's 2hr and pets.

[Byrth]

The roles maybe never changed, because those are fundamental roles in every MMO pretty much, but which jobs fill each role best certainly did change.

Example:
Sarameya vs. Cerberus

[Korpg]

I have seen summoners duo the Scars iron giants, and I even saw one summoner atetmpting to solo it, and he almost succeeded, but got caught in an AoE that happened at a bad time.

Um....

I solo'd all of the Scars Iron Giants, including the one that drops Razed Ruins atma. It is really easy, Ducal Guard + Leviathan = win.

[Greatguardian]

Outside of weird little niche fights, where a specific job might be needed. It shouldn't matter what specific jobs are brought as long as the main roles are filled(DD, Tank, Healer, Buffer/support). If it does matter then there is imbalance in the game and the jobs should be adjusted

Last I checked, inefficient jobs can still kill things. Just ... less efficiently. Efficiency includes drops. Next are we going to say that all jobs should have TH10 because THF has it and it's not fair that people should be required to bring THFs for TH?

[Dallas]

I do know the mob, retard fish in Vunk, very difficult to proc on? Yes, impossible? No, do you need a summoner for it? No.

I don't think anyone has a clue wtf you're talking about half the time honestly.

Then read the post I responded to and stop posting. I don't recall you contributing anything anyway.

[Dallas]

Yeah, forcing everyone to level every bandwagon job is a great idea!

In all fairness, at least Korpg and LLH appear to be bandwagon DG SMN. Bandwagon players are at no risk of replacing competent players.


Last I checked, inefficient jobs can still kill things. Just ... less efficiently. Efficiency includes drops. Next are we going to say that all jobs should have TH10 because THF has it and it's not fair that people should be required to bring THFs for TH?

That's a job you didn't include in your super-pimp WAR assumptions, but that's OK, the good players in your assumption were never the autoattack guy.

[Razushu]

Last I checked, inefficient jobs can still kill things. Just ... less efficiently. Efficiency includes drops. Next are we going to say that all jobs should have TH10 because THF has it and it's not fair that people should be required to bring THFs for TH?

No TH is a job trait of one job and in alot of cases it's only resaon for invite. TH and the proc system are different. The proc system doesn't give player's a reason to bring one job it encourages them to alienate 3/4 of them, which unless you happen to be elitist or particularly defensive of your favorite jobs position is instantly recognisible as a poorly designed system.

In a balanced game there shouldn't be inefficent jobs. If mulitple jobs fit a role then they ALL should be close enough in efficency to be at least close to equally welcome

[Korpg]

Who the hell said I don't care about drops? Everyone wants drops. The problem is we have a system that does not allow everyone to participate and also get drops. If you're not a WAR/MNK/NIN and you're killing anything in abssea, SE has basically said "fark you, you have to play one of these jobs or you don't get shiat, no matter how strong you are as a job/player."


Every drop I wanted, I solo'd, and I got.

Your opinion about the proc system is what your biggest argument. But nothing, absolutely nothing, is keeping you from getting what you want.

Want seals? There's quests for that.

Want gear? Kill XX NM.

Nothing is stopping you from getting what you want. Except you.

[Greatguardian]

No TH is a job trait of one job and in alot of cases it's only resaon for invite. TH and the proc system are different. The proc system doesn't give player's a reason to bring one job it encourages them to alienate 3/4 of them, which unless you happen to be elitist or particularly defensive of your favorite jobs position is instantly recognisible as a poorly designed system.

In a balanced game there shouldn't be inefficent jobs. If mulitple jobs fit a role then they ALL should be close enough in efficency to be at least close to equally welcome

Until you realize that adapting your jobs and playstyles to the challenge at hand is a fundamental part of actually playing the game.

This isn't WoW. We don't roll up one character on one job class and expect to be able to do things effectively with it. We have a character, with the potential for each of 20 different jobs and 380 job/subjob combinations. There doesn't need to be balance in the force, Luke. There is a very intentional imbalance based on what it is you are trying to do. Some jobs are better than others for X event. Some subjobs are better than others for Y event.

Determining what to use and when is FFXI.

[Alhanelem]

FFXI was never, ever designed to allow any one player to use the same one job for everything in the world. There are 20 jobs, filling 3-4 roles (DD, Healer, Buffer, Hybrid), that are designed with enough quirks and combinations (See: Subjob system) to allow them to be adapted to fit a variety of different situations effectively.Except, according to you, most of the jobs are not effective. Only WAR/MNK/NIN and the necessary support/procing jobs are effective. If a job is not effective/efficient/whatever, which you've certainly argued SMN isn't (and I won't disagree that it is behind in power), then that needs to be addressed with job adjustments. There will always be minor deviations in the balance of power, no developer is able to achieve perfect balance, since there is some level of subjectivity in it. But when there is a clear disparity in job balance, something absolutely should be done.


Your opinion about the proc system is what your biggest argument. But nothing, absolutely nothing, is keeping you from getting what you want.I'm not saying you get NO drops. Yes, with patience and persistence, anyone can get what they came for. but the Abyssea proc system creates imbalances in WHO is able to get what they came for reasonably. Every job can proc a few things. The problem is the current popularity of jobs is based almost purely on what they can proc. Yes, WAR/MNK/NIN proc the most and are currently the strongest jobs; But beyond that whether you are worth anything or not is not based on power or capability, but simply what procs you have. That is why the abyssea proc system is problematic. Your ability to perform doesn't even matter. Your ability to get proc is the only thing that really matters. Future proc systems have dealt with this problem.

For dynamis:
Most jobs either have or can reasonably sub a job that has at least one enemy-targetable job ability (JA-proc)
Every job has at least one weapon and a set of weapon skills, all of which appear to be able to be a proc (WS-proc). Summoner physical blood pacts count as weapon skills for this proc.
For low-manning, any job without magic can sub a job with magic (e.g. WHM) for magic procs, and in a party, you're always going to have at least one person with some kind of magic- but any kind of enemy-targeted magic will do; Summoner magic blood pact attacks count as magic for this proc

Unlike in abyssea, summoner doesn't get the proc shaft in Dynamis, so I have no issues there (except for the fact no one gives two farts about dynamis)

For Voidwatch, I'm not entirely sure as I have next to no experience on it, but I think the procing there is more fair to other jobs. Can anyone offer insight?

For Walk of Echoes, I honestly have no idea. I have seen red !! two or three times while fighting conflux #2 slime bosses. I have no idea what triggered them.

[Dallas]

There are 4 types of jobs: Ukon WAR, and crap.

[Greatguardian]

Except, according to you, most of the jobs are not effective. Only WAR/MNK/NIN and the necessary support/procing jobs are effective. If a job is not effective/efficient/whatever, which you've certainly argued SMN isn't (and I won't disagree that it is behind in power), then that needs to be addressed with job adjustments. There will always be minor deviations in the balance of power, no developer is able to achieve perfect balance, since there is some level of subjectivity in it. But when there is a clear disparity in job balance, something absolutely should be done.

WAR/MNK/NIN are the best (in the context of X, Y, Z).

Summoner is the worst (in the context of X, Y, Z).

Tally up the disparity between the two however you like.

Summoner is the best in the context of A, B, and C but you don't see me complaining. Perfect Defense, some Voidwatch fights, a lot of BCNMs, and a great deal of solo'ing.

Nothing is ever the best at everything. Some jobs are more niche than others.

But frankly, end result, the FFXI Devs probably don't, and never did, want all the jobs to be equal. That would defeat the entire purpose of the job system.

If you can't play the game without changing jobs, then you really should probably look into a game that better suits your interests. The bulk of FFXI's strategy is implemented before players even leave their mog house.

[Razushu]

Until you realize that adapting your jobs and playstyles to the challenge at hand is a fundamental part of actually playing the game.

This isn't WoW. We don't roll up one character on one job class and expect to be able to do things effectively with it. We have a character, with the potential for each of 20 different jobs and 380 job/subjob combinations. There doesn't need to be balance in the force, Luke. There is a very intentional imbalance based on what it is you are trying to do. Some jobs are better than others for X event. Some subjobs are better than others for Y event.

Determining what to use and when is FFXI.

Then why bother with the 14 additional jobs? Why make it so that multiple jobs have the same role? I'm not calling you an Elitist but by god with each passing post you sound a little more like one. The way you see FFXI they should've stopped adding jobs after BLM/WHM/THF/RDM/WAR/MNK.

[Cream_Soda]

All of this from someone who was complaining that all people care about are drops.

[Greatguardian]

Then why bother with the 14 additional jobs? Why make it so that multiple jobs have the same role? I'm not calling you an Elitist but by god with each passing post you sound a little more like one. The way you see FFXI they should've stopped adding jobs after BLM/WHM/THF/RDM/WAR/MNK.

You're far too narrow minded. Please stop thinking in the context of Abyssea being the only content in the entire game.

Summoner excels in a lot of fights. Summoner is absolutely vital to defeating Absolute Virtue. Warrior is a piss-poor soloist. Samurai, Paladin, Red Mage, and Bard were the 4 most popular/useful jobs in the game for years in pre-Abyssea events and are now some of the worst in Abyssea. It's all a matter of bloody context.

BCNMs? Summoner excels.

Assaults? Summoner excels.

Einherjar? Summoner is bloody terrible.

Do you see my point? It's not about gearing for one thing and one thing only. It's about changing your job and setup based on what it is you are trying to do at the present time. If you're doing something Summoner excels at, go Summoner. If you're doing something Summoner is horrible at, go something else. That is how FFXI works. That is how the Devs want FFXI to work.

There are 20 jobs because it opens up a whole slew of possibilities (380 combinations per player) in order to better adapt to whatever the hell the Devs decide to throw at us, past, present, and future.

[Alhanelem]

Some jobs are more niche than others.No job should be so niche that the entirety of their desireableness is a very specific fight or a single ability out of several dozen.


You're far too narrow minded. Please stop thinking in the context of Abyssea being the only content in the entire game.Dude, you can't play both sides in an argument and also simultaneously paint us as always being on the opposite side. First you said summoner is a niche job with only a couple of reasons why anyone would ever want one for a second. Now you're saying it excels at all this other stuff. Which one is it?

Youve spent all this time arguing about the jobs that are top tier and if you're not using those jobs, you're being ineficient losers. You base those arguments on the conditions present in Abyssea. Then you turn around and say abyssea isn't the only thing in the game and oh wait, these jobs are actually useful.

You are playing both sides when it suits you.


380 combinations per playerOh, don't give me that. Even I know that. there are at least a few combinations there that are redundant or serve no sensical purpose whatsoever, e.g. any combination of two pet jobs, because you can't use the pets from both jobs.

[Dallas]

If you can't play the game without changing jobs, then you really should probably look into a game that better suits your interests.

SE created Maat's Cap when a couple guys who were bored decided to level all jobs. All that storage space? Also unintended. SE intended for people to switch characters. BG insisted that people level the bandwagon job of the month.

[Greatguardian]

So how about, instead of talking about how things "Should be" in the opinion of one or a few people, we talk about how things bloody are? That was the entire point, wasn't it?

Right now? In the context of Abyssea? Summoner sucks. Don't complain when you can't get shit done as quickly as everyone else with it. Nothing is or ever was stopping you from using something more efficient.

[Alhanelem]

The point of the job system is to give you the freedom to play what you want, when you want, and not have to create a new character for each of them. The point is NOT to force everyone to play all jobs and use the absolute most perfect one for every imaginable situation.

By the way, f*** efficiency. I'm sick of hearing that word. There's more to the fking game than just being efficient. If this is all you're concerned with, then you have a problem. The game has become a job at that point, not a game.


Right now? In the context of Abyssea? Summoner sucks. Don't complain when you can't get shit done as quickly as everyone else with it.I will complain. I will keep complaining until something is done about it to make not just summoner, but ever other job that people have slapped the 'LOL' prefix on until it's not "LOL" anymore. No one should be f***ing ridiculed for playing their favorite jobs.

[Cream_Soda]

There's more to the fking game than just being efficient. If this is all you're concerned with, then you have a problem. The game has become a job at that point, not a game.
Again, then don't complain when you have to make a special group or get lower drop rate because you can't proc.

[Greatguardian]

Okay. Play Summoner then. Get fewer drops and kill slower.

I. Do. Not. Care. No one here does.

Just don't complain about not getting drops or kills as quickly as other people doing it the most effective way.

Christ, it's like you can't decide if you care about drops or not.

[Alhanelem]

Again, then don't complain when you have to make a special group or get lower drop rate because you can't proc. Again, I will complain, because I shouldn't have to get a lower drop rate because I didn't pick the top tier job.


Okay. Play Summoner then. Get fewer drops and kill slower.Again, I shouldn't have to get fewer drops and kill slower just because I didn't pick the top tier job. There shouldnt even BE #$%*ing tiers. The jobs should be balanced.


Christ, it's like you can't decide if you care about drops or not. Everyone cares about drops. But drops should't rule the method by which you play. You should be able to get drops whether you want to use summoners and puppetmasters, or rangers and paladins.

[Cream_Soda]

THERES MORE TO THE GAME THAN GETTING DROPS THOUGH!

[Greatguardian]

Someone really just does not understand the situational value of job selection.

[Alhanelem]

Someone really just does not understand the situational value of job selection.
someone really just does not understand that this isn't about situationalness.

Summoner is currently of comparatively low value in more situations than any other job, and the few things it does well are not enough to make up for this. It needs an overall increase in power.

We should be arguing about how to make less-respected jobs better, not the right to suck or be awesome.

[Greatguardian]

When every job is good at everything, the individual identity of each job becomes meaningless.

Jobs are unique because they do things differently, not equally. They are all more and less effective than one another in a given context. Strategy in FFXI consists of picking out what job combinations have the strengths necessary to best work on the situation at hand, and lack the weaknesses most exploitable by the situation at hand.

The entire FFXI job system is situational. That is how it was designed. That is how it is maintained. That is how it will be for ever and ever. If you don't understand the niche strengths and the general weaknesses of your job, you do not understand your job. Period.

[Alhanelem]

When every job is good at everything, the individual identity of each job becomes meaningless.No one said everything had to be good at everything. Summoner however is good at the fewest things and worst at the most.



If you don't understand the niche strengths and the general weaknesses of your job, you do not understand your job.I fully understand Summoner better than you ever will. one part of one two hour ability and like about 3 fights in the game is not enough to be good at. Summoner is not designed to be "terrible, except when you need Perfect Defense.
It would not be designed with a wide range of damaging attacks and support effects if it was not designed to be useful for those things.

Let's look at another job, like Monk. Monk is good at almost everything. There's hardly a situation in the game where you can't use a monk, except where magic is absolutely required and MNK doesn't have any.

The current spectrum of things summoner is used for is unacceptable and needs to be addressed. SE is just too afraid of pet jobs having too much power.

[Cream_Soda]

Summoner however is good at the fewest things and worst at the most.

Didn't you spend over half this thread talking about how good smn is?

[Alhanelem]

Didn't you spend over half this thread talking about how good smn is?
F all that. Summoner is terrible. You and GG spent the whole thread arguing about how bad it is, but then you say that's Okay, because summoner can help kill Absolute Virtue! Nothing else really matters!

Sure, I tried to argue that summoner is better than people are giving it credit for, but it's still not good enough.Then, when I try going along with you for the sake of argument, you all change your argument. Suddenly, summoner isn't bad, it just has niche uses! It doesn't need any other use, it has perfect defense! Summoner is perfect, flawless job that excells at pressing two buttons and not using 99% of the effects and abilities bestwoed upon it!

Why in the fakring world do you NOT see a problem with this?

[Cream_Soda]

Baaaackpeddle

[Greatguardian]

Oh I know that Summoner's terrible. And I know that it probably has the least real uses of any job in the game.

I just find it funny that you suddenly agree when it helps your current cause of the day.

Protip: I'd be all for making summoner useful in more situations. I even pointed out that your staunch defense of Summoner as "Fine as it is" was nothing short of counterproductive when the job needs an update. But do I think all jobs have the innate right to be useful at everything? No way. Do I think Summoner should be good in Abyssea? Naw, that's just silly.

Summoner has a niche use. It's not a matter of making them DD #2432. It's about content which actually makes use of Summoner's talents on occasion. Fortunately, Voidwatch does that. Summoner is awesome in Voidwatch. It's just too bad it's too "hard" for your average player to handle just yet.

[Alhanelem]

Summoner has a niche use. The nichest niche in the whole entire game. Summoner deserves to be more useful than it is now. Even when it came out, everyone was thinking it was going to be a powerful job- After all, Summoner has a reputaiton for power in the Final Fantasy series. FFXI's summoner should be able to live up to that reputation.

The first part of this thread was not about summoner being the best, or even close to it. It was about squeezing out a few extra drops of power on a job that sorely needs more capability.

I was NEVER the one in the thread saying SMN is the greatest job ever. That was Dallas.

As far as voidwatch: Looking over it, it's the rewards that are turning people off, not the difficulty (And events are always most difficult when they are first introduced). There are some good situational items in it, but the Sphere stuff seems to be a bust (it doesn't affect the wearer), and other special items from it e.g. the deluxe animator turned out to be worthless pieces of garbage. Plus, many people still want their empyrean gear more than they want anything from voidwatch, even if it's a little better.

On top of that, people don't like the drop system, and I've had friends telling me they don't get diddly for drops even with the lights all maxed up.

[Korpg]

In all fairness, at least Korpg and LLH appear to be bandwagon DG SMN. Bandwagon players are at no risk of replacing competent players.

Assuming you are competent of course.

Which you have proved otherwise.

[Greatguardian]

Summoner has more uses than Perfect Defense, brah.

[Alhanelem]

Summoner has more uses than Perfect Defense, brah.
No other use where it's truly needed or can't be easily replaced by something else, other than job specific fights.

[Sparthos]

I don't get what the fuss is, SE is attempting with Voidwatch to make ANY job suitable for showing up given the procs are randomized every time. Only have a BST? Show up, you can at the bare minimum cover any "beastmaster job abilities" messages.

It's an event where SMN (among others) dominates and WAR get pummeled repeatedly by constant AOE bombardment.

Wanna see a DD die fast? Crowd Celaeno or Voidwrought.

The main problem with the system is that the loot sucks and distribution has taken Walk of Echoes fail to the next level. No lootpools means the kills feel shallow and the personal chests can reward one person with awesome and the next person with boatloads of fail. Doubly so if a mage gets a melee drop or vice/versa.

Regardless of what I feel about it, Voidwatch is here to stay for 3 more updates. Guess what that means? SMN is locked in for at least 3 more updates of being desirable barring any major change to the current system.

I think the real issue is Abyssea fatigue anyway. People are tired of the one-stop shop (no alternatives) the expansions provide as the rest of the game is lulz and not worthy of mention. It's really not that difficult a feeling to understand.

[Cream_Soda]

Summoner has more uses than Perfect Defense, brah.
After all the smn can do this smn can do that just fine. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to get into a pt

Watch all the "we can't do this we can't do that" that will be directed towards this

[Alhanelem]

Well, it's nice that the proc system is more fair to all jobs in Voidwatch, but I'd still rather be wanted because of what the job itself is capable of, not because they need to be present to get more drops.

[Greatguardian]

Did you really just not read his post?

Summoner is great in Voidwatch because AoEs bloody hurt. Distanced, TP-free damage is great when shit will tear a WAR or MNK apart in 2 seconds flat.

Again: Not my fault the average FFXI player has absolutely no experience with voidwatch because it's "too hard'.

[Alhanelem]

As I said before, I haven't really seen people complaining about it being hard. The complaints i've seen were that it's unrewarding. I've heard stories of building lights and killing NMs only to get a worthless synth item or two.

Within my LS, no one seems to have any interest in doing it. It's not because of the difficulty.

[Sparthos]

Correct, Voidwatch is not Abyssea. It really isn't. Really, SE needs to put some good drops in for part II or a fantastic opportunity to shift the dynamic of XI will be lost. The only reason its not popular is because the system feels so... thrown together to say the least.

But like I said, 3 more updates are being dedicated to this system.

You can easily be oneshot on WAR from stuff as simple as Arm Cannon from Voidwrought. You're almost always going to want a SMN to keep the pressure on the mob while you bother around to find procs.

The ability to loop between physical pacts and magical make SMN the go-to job for these mobs. BST pets simply cant keep up, PUP can do magical damage but lacks ranged physical offense and Ranger often has to deal with pulling hate which could easily drop the curtains on your group.

SMN is the best option with Ranger, Corsair and Paladin getting off the bench and back into the fray.

Jobs that excel in Abyssea like BLU (my favorite job lol) become garbage against mobs with superior defenses and evasion, NIN runs into the same problems that plagued it pre-Abyssea and WAR/MNK aren't so great when you don't have the huge MP pools to sponge everything while having capped acc/tons of crit and tons of att.

If SE continues on its current path you're going to see a mass exodus from some classes cause Voidwatch goes back to the old-style of sword/board + support + ranged/run in and run out style XI.

[Alhanelem]

All this talk about it is making me more interested in Voidwatch. But for some reason, no one else in the LS feels this way.

If Voidwatch is bringing back fights where hate free spike damage and rangers and such are wanted again, I'm all for that. I just hope that it isn't a one time thing and that these jobs will continue to be useful in the future.

[Korpg]

Correct, Voidwatch is not Abyssea. It really isn't. Really, SE needs to put some good drops in for part II or a fantastic opportunity to shift the dynamic of XI will be lost.

Wait, what equipment slots can they add on to it?

I mean, we got great JSE armors for most jobs, I don't think they want to mess with those.

Emp weapons shouldn't be overshadowed by dropable items.

Only way they can make Earrings/Rings better is by making them Att+20, Double/Triple Attack +5%, MAB+10 or something like that. But when it comes to dropable items, a WAR only would get MAB+10 and a BLM only would get Double/Triple Attack+5%.

But still. SMNs should note that they are great at what they are. Al, I think you are gasping for air now for wanting all jobs to be equal. What would the point in having different jobs if they are all equal?

[Tamarsamar]

Summoners can most efficiently keep everybody Hasted. :>

They could definitely still stand to get some more love, though. <3



(Actually, now the I look at the OP again, I can't see how anybody could claim that the Mythic Staves lack utility. Where purely back-line oriented mages got the short end of the stick concerning Relics and Empyreans, they definitely got forces to be reckoned with with the more job-specific Mythics. Shame that obtaining Mythic Weapons, particularly the level 90 versions, is about 100 times worse than pulling teeth. :< )

[Korpg]

Summoners can most efficiently keep everybody Hasted. :>

They could definitely still stand to get some more love, though. <3

What's keeping the WHM from hasting everyone?

[Alhanelem]

What would the point in having different jobs if they are all equal? huh? I'm not wanting all jobs to be "equal," I'm wanting them to be "balanced."

Except in a few special cases summoner is generally regarded as inferior as a whole. I am waiting for the day when summoners are respected, not LOL'd, for being summoners. You never see people going around talking, "Oh, Summoner? yeah, that's a good job. Let's invite him!" and that's the beef I have.

[Greatguardian]

And we come right back down to personal respect.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

[Tamarsamar]

What's keeping the WHM from hasting everyone?

Hastega is still more efficient overall. Zero delay from player error (including an emergency need for Cures or -na spells), not to mention more bang for your MP cost (though you could argue that part away with Light Arts), and everybody happily receives their Haste crack at once, rather than waiting to be next-in-line.

[Dallas]

Just don't complain about not getting drops or kills as quickly as other people doing it the most effective way.

Christ, it's like you can't decide if you care about drops or not.

I hope you realize that the players who change jobs for every fight, instead of learning how to play one job well, have to collect 10 times the drops.

[Greatguardian]

I hope you realize that the players who change jobs for every fight, instead of learning how to play one job well, have to collect 10 times the drops.

I like how you made a false comparison between changing jobs and having to learn jobs.

ITT: Learning jobs is hard. Collecting drops efficiently is harder.

[Korpg]

huh? I'm not wanting all jobs to be "equal," I'm wanting them to be "balanced."

Except in a few special cases summoner is generally regarded as inferior as a whole. I am waiting for the day when summoners are respected, not LOL'd, for being summoners. You never see people going around talking, "Oh, Summoner? yeah, that's a good job. Let's invite him!" and that's the beef I have.

Only person who is making SMN into a loljob is Dallas. And that is with his attitude.

SMNs are respected now as is, without demanding them to be a top tier DD or healer or buffer or "they have to melee or gtfo" type of attitudes.

[Dallas]

I like how you made a false comparison between changing jobs and having to learn jobs.

ITT: Learning jobs is hard. Collecting drops efficiently is harder.

Who cares about efficient when I'm not the person who has to have a Ukon, and a competent DNC, WHM, and BRD to look good on a calculator? I need 1 job's gear, and every update I finish collecting those items in a matter of weeks.

This is why even on your pretty calculator, I deal 4 times the damage of the BP/release SMN. While BG cheerleaders spend all this time trying to prevent people from playing SMN, I have the free time to discover things like DG. We know you don't care about the job. The best thing you could do for SMN is get far away from it.

[Greatguardian]

You're oblivious. You don't deal 4 times the damage of a BP/release Summoner ever. You don't deal 2.5x the damage of a BP/release Summoner unless you're rocking Haste Samba, dual Marches, Haste, and Red Curry buns.

You don't even eat food, as far as I can tell from your posts. The damage you, personally, add is laughable.

[Alhanelem]

And we come right back down to personal respect.

Which has nothing to do with anything.
Not perosonal respect, job respect. It is the job, not the person, thatt is the target of LOLjob BS.

[Greatguardian]

Exactly. It is the job. Not the person. I'd ask how that affects you, but we'll just begin this whole crapfest all over again from the beginning.

Bottom line? The Relic staff, Mythic staves, and Empyrean staff have utility, just not nearly as much as other weapons of a comparable stature.

[Byrth]

There are 4 types of jobs: Ukon WAR, and crap.

I barely skimmed the previous two pages, but thought I'd pull this quote out. See, this is the kind of post that completely convinces me he's an elaborate troll.

[Korpg]

You're oblivious. You don't deal 4 times the damage of a BP/release Summoner ever. You don't deal 2.5x the damage of a BP/release Summoner unless you're rocking Haste Samba, dual Marches, Haste, and Red Curry buns.

You don't even eat food, as far as I can tell from your posts. The damage you, personally, add is laughable.

He wouldn't even do that much damage with all those buffs.

Because he wouldn't be in a party like that, he rather be by himself all the time, he said so too.

Edit: Oh shi, 1000th post on this thread.