Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility? [Archive] - Page 3

TybudX

06-20-2011, 12:03 PM

Thought so It's kinda like BRD with a cooler hat, but SMN still holds it's own when you add the extra DD+support or I'd not be accepted time and again to perform this role(just my opinion based on personal experience)

If SMNs can beat BLMs going full out at Taimat, if SMNs can beat Annihilator RNGs going full out at DI, then yeah, it's kind of like a BRD with a cooler hat. Except COR was designed with DDing mind. It has real DD gear and real DD WSs. It's better dps than a SMN, with stronger, more relevant buffs, and that's not even considering that you can /rdm or /whm and do the support role just as well as a SMN, or /war and be even more damage.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:04 PM

+35~ damage per strike to every melee in the party isn't worth it? really?

I really don't know a ton about smn, but with a dnc i think that haste samba>35 dmg per hit :x

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:08 PM

If SMNs can beat BLMs going full out at Taimat, if SMNs can beat Annihilator RNGs going full out at DI, then yeah, it's kind of like a BRD with a cooler hat. Except COR was designed with DDing mind. It has real DD gear and real DD WSs. It's better dps than a SMN, with stronger, more relevant buffs, and that's not even considering that you can /rdm or /whm and do the support role just as well as a SMN, or /war and be even more damage.

yes but can they keep DD up while supporting the party AND buffing it at the same time. I'm jsut saying they can perform either 2 roles at a time better than SMN but SMN can do all 3 at the same time the Differnce in party effiency is probably low enough that while COR is the preferred job my SMN has no trouble being invited to do the same thing.

-EDIT- for the record my hastega > Blitzer's roll

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:09 PM

I really don't know a ton about smn, but with a dnc i think that haste samba>35 dmg per hit :x

what about 15% haste and +35~ damage?

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:19 PM

Well Blitzer's roll is crap anyways, and i'm fairly certain enspells and haste samba dont stack :x

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:21 PM

Well Blitzer's roll is crap anyways, and i'm fairly certain enspells and haste samba dont stack :x

Well if i was in a party with a DNC I'd drop inferno howl for something else to max out the haste we were giving the party

Sparthos

06-20-2011, 12:21 PM

The reason I left off Crimson Roar is because firstly Ifrit kinda sucks and isn't even worth calling out for some enfire that can easily wind up being resisted on harder mobs and secondly because idk if its just how I set parties up but usually my SMN isn't with my DD but moreso with my tanks or in a party of mages over a group of DD.

Just me, I can see where enfire can be effective, even if those situations are slim.

In Voidwatch (where SMN becomes a relevant and effective job again), the PLD will be using enlight and you don't want many DD around so the en-fire becomes irrelevant as ranged damage or disposable pets are more effective for damage than melee damage.

Really, SMN is plagued from some of the same issues other pet classes have - SE doesn't want the pet to be more powerful than the purists (BRD, COR) so we have a situation where the wards are ho-hum buffs/debuffs but nothing overly amazing.

Also, maybe it's just me but fielding a DNC outside Abyssea in the direction XI is going w/Voidwatch is currently "eh..." to me. The whole !! system is designed to be anti-zerg, anti-DD hastefest which leads to a sharp desirability in what Dancer brings to the table.

The job already has a niche as being a top tier soloer and excellent support when you can simply rush the field with DD tanks and a mage or two but at what looks to be "new" endgame, the job falls flat on its face. Personal experience may vary however.

TybudX

06-20-2011, 12:22 PM

-EDIT- for the record my hastega > Blitzer's roll

Blitzer's roll is trash. It wrecks Xhits for 2 handers, and it's useless for DWs in a party with DNC, BRD, Haste.

yes but can they keep DD up while supporting the party AND buffing it at the same time.

Phantom Roll
Job Ability

Grants a beneficial effect to party members within area of effect.
Obtained: Corsair Level 5
Recast Time: 1 Minute
Duration: 5 minutes.

So 5:30 seconds with af3 hands, and it takes all of 5 seconds to put up. Sometimes it takes longer due to SE/Bust/Fold, sometimes less due to Lucky Number, but about 5 seconds average to get positioned, roll/re-roll, get back to where you were.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:25 PM

Well, at 75 i would only do DD rolls cause mages never really had MP issues then!

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:27 PM

The reason I left off Crimson Roar is because firstly Ifrit kinda sucks and isn't even worth calling out for some enfire that can easily wind up being resisted on harder mobs and secondly because idk if its just how I set parties up but usually my SMN isn't with my DD but moreso with my tanks or in a party of mages over a group of DD.

Just me, I can see where enfire can be effective, even if those situations are slim.

In Voidwatch (where SMN becomes a relevant and effective job again), the PLD will be using enlight and you don't want many DD around so the en-fire becomes irrelevant as ranged damage or disposable pets are more effective for damage than melee damage.

Really, SMN is plagued from some of the same issues other pet classes have - SE doesn't want the pet to be more powerful than the purists (BRD, COR) so we have a situation where the wards are ho-hum buffs/debuffs but nothing overly amazing.

Usually I wind up with DDs but if I was in a mage or tank party I'd just change up the buffs I give

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:29 PM

Phantom Roll
Job Ability

Grants a beneficial effect to party members within area of effect.
Obtained: Corsair Level 5
Recast Time: 1 Minute
Duration: 5 minutes.

So 5:30 seconds with af3 hands, and it takes all of 5 seconds to put up. Sometimes it takes longer due to SE/Bust/Fold, sometimes less due to Lucky Number, but about 5 seconds average to get positioned, roll/re-roll, get back to where you were.

the same applies to my BPs except I don't hurt my damage to equip a support role subjob and can DD/Buff/support all at once.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:32 PM

Support role subjob? COR is a DD, /whm is crap(bar some situations) /rdm is limited too.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:39 PM

Support role subjob? COR is a DD, /whm is crap(bar some situations) /rdm is limited too.

So it can't perform all 3 roles that SMN can at once, my point that SMN brings a versatility to the party that other jobs can't and as such the party won't suffer too much if at all from our weaker buffs

Dallas

06-20-2011, 12:41 PM

I wouldn't call my Damage poor.
You called my damage poor and you do 1/4th my damage. What word means "sucks significantly more than poor?"

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:41 PM

What? COR can do all 3 jobs at once and still be better than smn :x
Edit: What i mean is wildfire, give melee rolls, give mages rolls, and lose no dmg cause wildfire is sick.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:44 PM

What? COR can do all 3 jobs at once and still be better than smn :x
Edit: What i mean is wildfire, give melee rolls, give mages rolls, and lose no dmg cause wildfire is sick.

You just said /whm or /rdm are limited how are you supporting a party without them.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:45 PM

COR buffs are how the cor supports the party, lol.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:46 PM

You called my damage poor and you do 1/4th my damage. What word means "sucks significantly more than poor?"

Your Damage is poor..... compared to an actual DD. Our damage is good considering it's hate/TP free and is only 1/3 of what I bring to a party.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:48 PM

COR buffs are how the cor supports the party, lol.

buffs are party of support role heals -nas etc. are included its why I sub a mage job it doesn't affect my pets DMG and it boosts my usefulness to the party.

Bumbeen

06-20-2011, 12:50 PM

smn sux bro can't replace cor or brd buffs

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:50 PM

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:54 PM

The buffs a COR can give to melee are still a lot better(in most cases, im not saying EA is bad, its amazing) that what smn can give for the most part. And if you REALLY wanted to get down to the nitty gritty, cor/rdm with armageddon will outdo a smn for the most part :x

possibly depends on how much time he has to spend shooting if you spend alot of your time shooting to keep up DD the support might not be worth it

Aurara

06-20-2011, 12:56 PM

It's really not hard to shoot between rolls, lol.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 12:56 PM

smn sux bro can't replace cor or brd buffs

1) SMN doesn't suck if you know how to play it

2) not trying to replace them merely saying that SMN is a more than adequate replacement if applied properly

Dallas

06-20-2011, 12:56 PM

Your Damage is poor..... compared to an actual DD. Our damage is good considering it's hate/TP free and is only 1/3 of what I bring to a party.
Then ignore your damage, or "pathetic" comes to mind.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:00 PM

It's really not hard to shoot between rolls, lol.

sorry thought I was clearer the way I play SMN can be broken up into 3 parts

DD = 70 or 75 rage spam

buffs= wards and such that improve the overall performance of the group

Support= random things that pop up, back up heals,helping with -nas/erase etc.

I know taken on their own none of these 3 can compare to a specialist in the field but taken together make me more than worth my spot

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:03 PM

Then ignore your damage, or "pathetic" comes to mind.

Dude SMN damage only looks patehtic when you say "I'm a DD". when taken as part of the whole it's good enough.

Sparthos

06-20-2011, 01:03 PM

Dallas

06-20-2011, 01:03 PM

taken together make me more than worth my spot

That's not your call. Wait for our BG field rep to return.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:12 PM

sorry thought I was clearer the way I play SMN can be broken up into 3 parts

DD = 70 or 75 rage spam

buffs= wards and such that improve the overall performance of the group

Support= random things that pop up, back up heals,helping with -nas/erase etc.

I know taken on their own none of these 3 can compare to a specialist in the field but taken together make me more than worth my spot
If i have to sub whm, i dont really focus on DDing on cor, because usually my dmg will be crap. When i did cor/whm to odin, i did DD rolls, mage rolls, and curaga/na'd people. When i can actually "DD" on cor, i can keep up melee rolls, mage rolls, while DDing, spamming QD w/e its up and wildfire'ing w/e i have tp.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:14 PM

COR can buff more potently, deal damage equal or exceeding SMN (at distance or in close quarters) and heal on near equal terms with SMN using /WHM. If you want to get technical, a COR/WHM can still do damage while using -na, -ga2 and haste.

The main boon SMN has lay in dealing ranged damage for little to no hate and it also happens to dabble in the same area COR excels in - versatility. However the second that hate isn't a significant issue, the floor drops out on SMN. Those Blood Pact timers are a cinder block around the feet of the class.

SMN is the go-to class for hateless damage and that is where COR will lose. You will eventually snatch hate and you will die for it much like any other DD. The support rolls however are enough to secure a slot in any party, the QD augments w/boots though situational is another potent tool in a Corsair's arsenal and Wildfire coupled with /ra can easily broadside a SMN in DD capability.

I agree with you COR DD/buff/support will more than likely outperform SMN in the same regard. where COR will be more to the DD end of the 3 SMN will find itself closer to the support end. the difference is there I'm not denying it but with a good SMN the differnce is small enough that we'll have no problem filling the role. Hateless damage is a boon also if you find yourself needing to spam heals, which I can kinda do with abandon when the need arises because I have close to no hate.

BP timer is killing us no doubt(theres not a SMN out there who isn't praying for it to be lowered).

If i have to sub whm, i dont really focus on DDing on cor, because usually my dmg will be crap. When i did cor/whm to odin, i did DD rolls, mage rolls, and curaga/na'd people. When i can actually "DD" on cor, i can keep up melee rolls, mage rolls, while DDing, spamming QD w/e its up and wildfire'ing w/e i have tp.

Like I thought COR will pick 2 roles and outperform SMN on them whereas SMN doesn't have to pick and can perform all 3 well-but not as well- as a dedicated counterpart

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:14 PM

put cors with smn, everyone wins! Did it with khim and it was nice :3

Dallas

06-20-2011, 01:15 PM

It looks like our "BG mathies" have taken a siesta. Until they return, COR is not allowed to shoot off damage numbers. Pun intended.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:19 PM

put cors with smn, everyone wins! Did it with khim and it was nice :3

I had a friend with COR leveled, but I never saw him use it kept saying he wanted to head out with me and a few more SMNs to try his pet rolls on NMs it never happened /sigh. lol

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 01:19 PM

You don't need to do the math to know that neither COR nor SMN are very good DD.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:20 PM

Pet rolls were super nice on khim, like, 1k+ PC or SD on khim :3

Sparthos

06-20-2011, 01:23 PM

You don't need to do the math to know that neither COR nor SMN are very good DD.

Only SMN and COR were being compared?

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:29 PM

Pet rolls were super nice on khim, like, 1k+ PC or SD on khim :3

nice If my friend ever resubscribes I'm gonna make him go COR and follow a group of SMN round and see what we can do lol

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:30 PM

Also, COR is a great DD for Voidwatch, so is SMN :x

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:32 PM

Also, COR is a great DD for Voidwatch, so is SMN :x

and if COR and SMN not DDing they bring buffs/support to the party no one except Dallas was saying either are just DDs. Except they can both perform well as ranged DDs.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:34 PM

Was in response to leon's post

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 01:37 PM

Not saying COR doesn't bring anything to the table, but damage is not high up there on the list.

@voidwatch: 4 useful items from voidwatch: +3 march harp, QA+2% VIT+4 neck, possibly HQ2 eagle body/head for NIN. Otherwise its a totally useless event at this point, although depending on the future it could be great, but now its just trash.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:37 PM

Was in response to leon's post

was agreeing with you in response to leon's post

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:38 PM

Not saying COR doesn't bring anything to the table, but damage is not high up there on the list.

That's why the have buffs

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:40 PM

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 01:40 PM

That's why the have buffs

Now you're just replying for the sake of argument, because I stated this.

COR are good if they can get your 2 handers x hit down, or can give 4tp/tick so DDs can come in to WS more often depending on the fight. Also have good defensive abilities depending on the fight.

COR is just highly situational in comparison to BRD, which is ALWAYS wanted.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:42 PM

Now you're just replying for the sake of argument, because I stated this.

COR are good if they can get your 2 handers x hit down, or can give 4tp/tick so DDs can come in to WS more often depending on the fight. Also have good defensive abilities depending on the fight.

COR is just highly situational in comparison to BRD, which is ALWAYS wanted.

My apologies I wrote this before you clarified.

Also I'm talking about SMN(in the same role) Aurara is the COR we just banded together there lol

To clarify I'm not saying SMN> than BRD or COR just that if properly applied can perform well enough to earn it's place in the absence of or in conjunction with either of these 2

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:43 PM

COR is just highly situational in comparison to BRD, which is ALWAYS wanted.

I wont argue this, because it's true :x

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 01:49 PM

Razushu

06-20-2011, 01:56 PM

SMN has some things they can bring to the table although it's even more situational than COR.

Earthen Armor (Migawari/Scherzo effect) is great for certain fights.
Diablos buffing in a BLM only party is very decent too.
If a SMN is in the DD party, assuming the DD have crit WS's Ramuh's favor is potent enough to use and Ramuhs stun is amazing, though almost next to impossible to time.

However you just can't work your parties around a SMN, because what the SMN is giving isn't enough compared to COR or BRD or other spots.

Choatic Strike only works on high tier -agas and AMs but still and extra stun is always nice.

I've never had a part built around me before, but I do well enough that no one complains they only have a SMN to buff them, I still add damage and support job utility as well. I'm fully aware and will always admit openly to my jobs failings, we are second to COR and BRD but we can perform well enough to replace or supplement one should one not be available.

Sparthos

06-20-2011, 01:57 PM

Why pick between COR and BRD when you can bring both. At any remotely difficult NM you'll want assemble a BRD/COR pt anyway.

Voidwatch is the future of this game (go look at SEs chart) so SMN and COR will be seeing more widespread use if SE intends to stick to the script. Both jobs happen to succeed under the conditions posed in Voidwatch.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:57 PM

I've never had a part built around me before, but I do well enough that no one complains they only have a SMN to buff them, I still add damage and support job utility as well. I'm fully aware and will always admit openly to my jobs failings, we are second to COR and BRD but we can perform well enough to replace or supplement one should one not be available.
At least somebody gets it.

Sparthos

06-20-2011, 01:59 PM

Where's Dallas exclaiming the only thing he replaces are Ukons.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 02:27 PM

Where's Dallas exclaiming the only thing he replaces are Ukons.

He's hiding out in the SMN forums trying to tell me I fail at SMN

Razushu

06-20-2011, 02:27 PM

Dallas

06-20-2011, 02:55 PM

Where's Dallas exclaiming the only thing he replaces are Ukons.

I replace incompetent SMN. It just so happens those SMN have all agreed to a uniform 2nd grade reading level.

Alhanelem

06-20-2011, 02:59 PM

I really don't know a ton about smn, but with a dnc i think that haste samba>35 dmg per hit :x
And Hastega > haste samba. What's your point? SMN can give more than one buff at a time...

Also, enspell damage helps 1h weapons (and multi-attacking) far more than 2h weapons. 35 extra damage on every hit, especially when you are using DW daggers or swords, is a lot. Throw in a kraken club, joytoy, ridill, or magian OAT weapon for extra fun.

I replace incompetent SMN. It just so happens those SMN have all agreed to a uniform 2nd grade reading level. You're really not doing the SMN community any favors posting like this right now. That's all I have to say on that. If you want to argue a decent case, you need to go about it better than attacking and alienating the very group of people you're trying to get the attention of.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 03:08 PM

And Hastega > haste samba. What's your point? SMN can give more than one buff at a time...

You're wrong here. 100% completely wrong. Haste samba>Hastega. I can get a mage to haste me and get the same benefit.

Edit: took out the quite that wasnt for me, but i still feel you aren't making smn look any better.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 03:43 PM

And Hastega > haste samba. What's your point? SMN can give more than one buff at a time...

Also, enspell damage helps 1h weapons (and multi-attacking) far more than 2h weapons. 35 extra damage on every hit, especially when you are using DW daggers or swords, is a lot. Throw in a kraken club, joytoy, ridill, or magian OAT weapon for extra fun.

You're really not doing the SMN community any favors posting like this right now. That's all I have to say on that. If you want to argue a decent case, you need to go about it better than attacking and alienating the very group of people you're trying to get the attention of.

Hastega is the same haste as haste spell, and is magic haste.

Haste samba is the only way for jobs other than DRK to truly cap haste, as without it the highest you can get is 78% (Marchx2(+3) Haste spell caps magic haste (43.4%), 26% shown gear haste caps gear haste (25%) hasso gives 10% job ability haste (totaling 78.3% roughly) requiring anyone /dnc to cap haste.

So Haste Samba can be incredibly important because that 2% at that high numbers is like 20 more attacks per 100 rounds or something.

And that's why Haste Samba is better than hastega, since your WHM should be giving you haste anyway.

Oa2+ weaposn are pretty fail too, since they deal significantly low damage at the cost of feeding high TP. The TP:WS ratio does not make up for it in 90% of cases, where certain RNGs and DRKs make up the other 10%.

Dallas

06-20-2011, 03:58 PM

LOL. The "feeding the mob TP" excuse.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 04:02 PM

LOL. The "feeding the mob TP" excuse.

This can be a huge problem on tons of NMs (See Apademak, Pantokrator, Orthrus) in Abyssea and even more so in Voidwatch, if you're going to try to deny that you should at least explain yourself.

Dallas

06-20-2011, 04:13 PM

This can be a huge problem on tons of NMs (See Apademak, Pantokrator, Orthrus) in Abyssea and even more so in Voidwatch, if you're going to try to deny that you should at least explain yourself.

Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage. It's funnier every time it's said.

Alhanelem

06-20-2011, 04:26 PM

You're wrong here. 100% completely wrong. Haste samba>Hastega. I can get a mage to haste me and get the same benefit.I'm right here. 100% completely right. Haste > Haste samba. Haste = 15%. Haste samba = 10% if fully merited. Can you stack them? Yes, you can. But that doesn't mean that one isn't stronger than the other. SMN is that mage that can haste you- in fact, haste all of you at the same time, for less effort and less need to recast, since Hastega has a longer duration. Also, Haste samba only benefits meleeing. Hastega benefits everyone at all times.

If I'm on summoner, why would I want someone else to haste me and 5 other people one at a time when I can just do it all at once? Your logic is just plain baffling.

Leonlionheart (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/8850-Leonlionheart) I am fully aware of how haste works. I am fully aware that spell haste and haste samba stack That doesn't make Haste Samba magically more haste than Hastega. If for some wild and crazy reason you actually have a summoner with you, there is no reason in the universe for someone to be casting single target haste when hastega is available- since the point that I believe is attempting to be made here is that the spell Haste is easily accessible through many jobs from either main or sub. That's fine and all. But the first poster I quoted made a driect comparison between the spell Haste and the ability haste samba. Individually, the spell haste is clearly far superior. If you have to choose one or the other, Haste is the way to go. It is simply not possible to argue otherwise.

And that's why Haste Samba is better than hastega, since your WHM should be giving you haste anyway.No, the WHM should not be giving you haste anyway, you're a summoner, and you have a haste of the same effect and longer duraiton that also hits everyone at once. Hastega is 100% unequivocally superior to haste samba. Saying "the WHM should be giving haste anyway" doesn't change the fact that haste is a stronger effect than haste samba. 15% and affects everything > 10% and only affects melee. Obviously both is better than one or the other or none. But stop acting like hastega and haste are like two different things or something. One is AoE and the other one isn't. That's all there really is to it. A summoner using Hastega greatly simplifies the haste process. Why do more work when you can do less? I guess you're trying to argue that Samba is better than hastega because haste and hastega don't stack and you're "going to have haste anyway." But if hastega is available, that should be what's being used, not single target haste. Hastega > Haste: Costs less MP in total and lasts longer.

Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage.I read this a few times, and it got funnier every time I read it. Yes, you shouldn't melee *while the mob is absorbing* because it is absorbing.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 04:52 PM

Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage. It's funnier every time it's said.

So you have no reply to my question, you must be a politician or something.

You have no answer. Good to know you are incompetent and can't support your claims, makes ignoring you that much easier.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 04:52 PM

I'm right here. 100% completely right. Haste > Haste samba. Haste = 15%. Haste samba = 10% if fully merited. Can you stack them? Yes, you can. But that doesn't mean that one isn't stronger than the other. SMN is that mage that can haste you- in fact, haste all of you at the same time, for less effort and less need to recast, since Hastega has a longer duration. Also, Haste samba only benefits meleeing. Hastega benefits everyone at all times.

If I'm on summoner, why would I want someone else to haste me and 5 other people one at a time when I can just do it all at once? Your logic is just plain baffling.

Leonlionheart (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/8850-Leonlionheart) I am fully aware of how haste works. I am fully aware that spell haste and haste samba stack That doesn't make Haste Samba magically more haste than Hastega. If for some wild and crazy reason you actually have a summoner with you, there is no reason in the universe for someone to be casting single target haste when hastega is available- since the point that I believe is attempting to be made here is that the spell Haste is easily accessible through many jobs from either main or sub. That's fine and all. But the first poster I quoted made a driect comparison between the spell Haste and the ability haste samba. Individually, the spell haste is clearly far superior. If you have to choose one or the other, Haste is the way to go. It is simply not possible to argue otherwise.

No, the WHM should not be giving you haste anyway, you're a summoner, and you have a haste of the same effect and longer duraiton that also hits everyone at once. Hastega is 100% unequivocally superior to haste samba. Saying "the WHM should be giving haste anyway" doesn't change the fact that haste is a stronger effect than haste samba. 15% and affects everything > 10% and only affects melee. Obviously both is better than one or the other or none. But stop acting like hastega and haste are like two different things or something. One is AoE and the other one isn't. That's all there really is to it. A summoner using Hastega greatly simplifies the haste process. Why do more work when you can do less? I guess you're trying to argue that Samba is better than hastega because haste and hastega don't stack and you're "going to have haste anyway." But if hastega is available, that should be what's being used, not single target haste. Hastega > Haste: Costs less MP in total and lasts longer.

I read this a few times, and it got funnier every time I read it. Yes, you shouldn't melee *while the mob is absorbing* because it is absorbing.

Haste Samba is better because it's a source of haste that can't be obtained otherwise. (Other than DRK)

Alhanelem

06-20-2011, 05:00 PM

Haste Samba is better because it's a source of haste that can't be obtained otherwise.The fact that there is more than one way to get the effect of the haste spell does not make haste samba better. One effect is still superior to the other.

And again, if you're on summoner, there's no reason for the single target haste spell to be cast. Ever. I realize that summoner isn't exactly popular right now, but that fact remains.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 05:25 PM

The fact that there is more than one way to get the effect of the haste spell does not make haste samba better. One effect is still superior to the other.

And again, if you're on summoner, there's no reason for the single target haste spell to be cast. Ever. I realize that summoner isn't exactly popular right now, but that fact remains.

The thing is you should always have Haste spell on anyway, with or without a SMN. In the ideal DD setup (where you will want perfect haste) you should have DD DD DD DD DNC WHM where the DNC drops and a BRD comes in to rotate songs.

In that case you will never have a SMN, and that's another reason Samba is better.

But seriously It's much MUCH better than Hastega because its JA haste where Magic haste will usually be capped assuming you have BRD.

Dallas

06-20-2011, 06:04 PM

So you have no reply to my question, you must be a politician or something.

You have no answer. Good to know you are incompetent and can't support your claims, makes ignoring you that much easier.

I don't have to answer any "feed TP" post, since it takes a lot of butthurt to assume that melee SMN would melee something that NO ONE melees except the tank. I laugh at you because your stupid argument means less and less in an increasingly easy game.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 06:19 PM

I don't have to answer any "feed TP" post, since it takes a lot of butthurt to assume that melee SMN would melee something that NO ONE melees except the tank. I laugh at you because your stupid argument means less and less in an increasingly easy game.

My WAR melees everything in abyssea, because my damage to tp fed ratio is out of this world, and I actually do damage with my TP.

Dallas

06-20-2011, 06:49 PM

My WAR melees everything in abyssea, because my damage to tp fed ratio is out of this world, and I actually do damage with my TP.

That's cute, a WAR who needs to enter a pissing contest with a Hver SMN. What weapon did you bring for us today? It's probably a Ukon, or you might be fearing the wrath of the mathies.

"Feed TP" argument is all about the talent of the WHM. If a WAR can zerg it, everyone can zerg it. You aren't special in any way.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 07:36 PM

That's cute, a WAR who needs to enter a pissing contest with a Hver SMN. What weapon did you bring for us today? It's probably a Ukon, or you might be fearing the wrath of the mathies.

"Feed TP" argument is all about the talent of the WHM. If a WAR can zerg it, everyone can zerg it. You aren't special in any way.

You couldn't zerg it.

Leonlionheart

06-20-2011, 07:42 PM

You couldn't zerg it.

To elaborate, you couldn't zerg it because you don't have enough damage output to safely kill it at a speed that wouldn't completely drain the WHMs MP.

WAR can zerg things better than everyone because they are better than everyone in terms of DD in Abyssea, and most likely outside too. They kill things so fast that it doesn't matter how much damage the target does, assuming it's not one hitting you.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here dallas, SMN melee is and always has been a horrible idea, and doesn't hold a candle to top notch DD.

TybudX

06-20-2011, 07:53 PM

LOL. The "feeding the mob TP" excuse.

LOL, the stupid player thinking TP isn't important excuse.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here dallas, SMN melee is and always has been a horrible idea, and doesn't hold a candle to top notch DD.

*cough*anyDD*cough*

The only jobs that are behind melee SMN in DD capacity are SCH and... no, that's it. Just SCH.

Byrth

06-20-2011, 08:00 PM

Razushu

06-20-2011, 08:51 PM

I replace incompetent SMN. It just so happens those SMN have all agreed to a uniform 2nd grade reading level.

Look at my post, now at yours, now mine sadlyyours aren't mine but they could be if you debated like an adult. You're the only one here with low level reading here

Razushu

06-20-2011, 09:07 PM

Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage. It's funnier every time it's said.

Did you really mean to say that?

Razushu

06-20-2011, 09:09 PM

Bumbeen

06-20-2011, 09:19 PM

smn can give 10% JA haste?

edit: misread

edit2: actually I still don't know wtf you're saying.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 09:20 PM

Anyway, basic summary of this thread is:
1) Situations where summoner is the best job to use are situations that are not conducive to meleeing.
2) Summoners that like playing summoner can do better damage on Summoner with 175 items sunk into an Emp staff than they could on a melee that they don't like playing (or potentially don't have leveled).

1) These are the situations where SMN excels but they're far from the only time we're useful.

I know at least people are going to disagree with number 1, but no one has provided a single specific example of a situation that falls outside of my 3-5 "strategic uses" of Summoner. I've seen a lot of "I go summoner and it feels like helping enough that I'm better than an empty party slot" but not a lot of "This is why I'm better than any other job in this situation." When you claim something, the burden of proof is on you and not your opposition.

I'm telling you the proof SMN is an amazing DD/Buffer/Support role if played by a skilled player. Are my buffs as good as a BRDs? no but my Damage is(hatefree and doesn't feed TP) and support abilities can be(more MP and MP management) and I can give more buffs at once. COR can either focus on DD or support to go along with thier buffs. Thier damage will be better and thier buffs most likely better But they're hardly leaving SMN in the dust.

2) SMN melee is a tool that certain SMNs use and can bring to the group if it's safe to melee on just like any other job

Razushu

06-20-2011, 09:27 PM

smn can give 10% JA haste?

edit: misread

edit2: actually I still don't know wtf you're saying.

SMN gives a full party Haste that lasts 5 minutes this is numkerically greater than 10% haste(if merited) that only affects melees.

My point was if you're trying to cap haste, why does the DNC replace the SMN most dual weilding classes can sub DNC for 5% haste sambawhich (going by the math put forward in this thread) is more than enough to cap haste in the group so why bother with the DNC when you can have a SMN hastega and rotate with the BRD as stated by Leonlionheart I jsut swapped the DNC for a SMN party still gets the same haste

Bumbeen

06-20-2011, 09:30 PM

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

Razushu

06-20-2011, 09:34 PM

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

To speed up the process and to be honest I've never been in a setup rotating a BRD. But for normal use exp/NM/event the SMN does a helluva lot more than save the WHM some MP. We add damage from a source the whm and tank don't need to worry about, we add buffs to the party and can still find time to support the party with heals etc.

Bumbeen

06-20-2011, 09:47 PM

Razushu

06-20-2011, 09:51 PM

Can't brd cor dnc and another whm do those functions or combinations of those functions better than smn? I think I have to agree smn can do none of those things(dmg, buffs, support) better than another job.

Yes this is something I haven't tired to hide, focusing on one of these roles a SMN falls behind a specialist, but since a SMN can do all 3 well AT THE SAME TIME. SMN has no problem contributing to a party

Bumbeen

06-20-2011, 10:04 PM

Razushu

06-20-2011, 10:29 PM

How does smn do dmg if they're casting support spells and avatars for buffs? What are these buffs anyway? I am not familiar with smn so much. I think it's been covered pretty well in this thread that smn doesn't do any useful dmg.

Would not a war/dnc be better? They can do dmg, support heals, and party buffs too.(and they're all instant, no casting!)

the Damage comes From BP: Rages 2k damage every 45secs isn't great, but coming from a guy who is cycling ~4 buffs including haste and is still helping the mages support the party it's a nice bonus.

We can give a fairly wide array of buffs only thing we're really missing is a realistic refresh We give some nice offensive buffs like hastega and enfire and attack bonus.

We can defnesive buffs like Earthen armor and nocto shield and shining ruby.

And hate free AoE heals.

Aside from the summoning time avatar buffs are instant cast, after it goes off I'm back to supporting the party instantly. Plus the WAR will be wasting it's TP to cure thus lowering it's overall damage.Plus I don't see why I'd be competing with the WAR/DNC our buffs and his buffs/debuffs would stack so if we worked together we would bosst the party better and he could get back to DDing not worrying about cures

Bumbeen

06-20-2011, 11:18 PM

the Damage comes From BP: Rages 2k damage every 45secs isn't great, but coming from a guy who is cycling ~4 buffs including haste and is still helping the mages support the party it's a nice bonus.

We can give a fairly wide array of buffs only thing we're really missing is a realistic refresh We give some nice offensive buffs like hastega and enfire and attack bonus.

We can defnesive buffs like Earthen armor and nocto shield and shining ruby.

And hate free AoE heals.

Aside from the summoning time avatar buffs are instant cast, after it goes off I'm back to supporting the party instantly. Plus the WAR will be wasting it's TP to cure thus lowering it's overall damage.Plus I don't see why I'd be competing with the WAR/DNC our buffs and his buffs/debuffs would stack so if we worked together we would bosst the party better and he could get back to DDing not worrying about cures

Damn that is awesome didn't know smn had all those buffs. I think best would maybe to get a whole PT of smns together then, and they could all buff and support each other and do some dmg too.

Razushu

06-20-2011, 11:38 PM

Damn that is awesome didn't know smn had all those buffs. I think best would maybe to get a whole PT of smns together then, and they could all buff and support each other and do some dmg too.

If they made it so pets can recieve buffs that would help.

Pet burns are awesome and great fun butit can be hard to get 4-5 other SMNs to kill the same mob because chances are we want the same gear off it

TybudX

06-21-2011, 12:40 AM

COR can either focus on DD or support to go along with thier buffs. Thier damage will be better and thier buffs most likely better But they're hardly leaving SMN in the dust.

They really are. For example, with GGs sample mob from before a COR's damage from WSs alone would be about 540dps. That isn't factoring in QD damage or TP phase damage. They supply buffs that are straight up competitive with BRD. Flat out 18% more attack, or 16% more DA, or 20% more TP, etc. Strong buffs which are universally good. If a COR does /whm it is just as capable of throwing out -nas and back up healing as a SMN. It doesn't do 'one or the other' any more than SMN is doing 'one or the other'. If BRD didn't have unique magic Haste songs (and now Scherzo) you would use 2x COR instead, it's that good.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 12:52 AM

smn can give 10% JA haste?

edit: misread

edit2: actually I still don't know wtf you're saying.
No, it can give 15% spell haste, which is a larger amount of haste than 10% when considered individually. The only thing that makes haste samba "better" is that it fills haste in a different category. It's only "better" because it's "necessary." Spell haste is necessary too, it's simply more readily available. And until you have your spell haste, spell haste is superior to JA haste because it affects attack speed and cast timers, while JA haste only affects attack speed.

The appropriate sentence would be "Samba haste is more *important* than haste because you can't always have it, while haste is much easier to obtain."

-----

On COR: It seems like people are vastly underestimating it's possible damage output CORs use guns, and they don't kid around. CORs have a bit lower skill than RNG and don't have the offensive JAs of RNG, but their damage can still be good if they focus on it. This requries standing in the apprpriate position of course, so buffing of others might suffer unless you move to buff and move back to ideal range. But COR is a pretty under-rated job. I think the only reason it's not played more is because it's expensive.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 12:56 AM

They really are. For example, with GGs sample mob from before a COR's damage from WSs alone would be about 540dps. That isn't factoring in QD damage or TP phase damage. They supply buffs that are straight up competitive with BRD. Flat out 18% more attack, or 16% more DA, or 20% more TP, etc. Strong buffs which are universally good. If a COR does /whm it is just as capable of throwing out -nas and back up healing as a SMN. It doesn't do 'one or the other' any more than SMN is doing 'one or the other'. If BRD didn't have unique magic Haste songs (and now Scherzo) you would use 2x COR instead, it's that good.

Again no one is saying my SMN will out DD will out damage a COR. I don't now why I have to repeat that every second post or so. Also this is a style I've been playing for a long time so I know it works it isn't as effective as a COR DD/buffer or a COR support/buffer but the combo of support/DD/buffer is still effective enough to warrant my place.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 01:00 AM

We can give a fairly wide array of buffs only thing we're really missing is a realistic refreshUh, Favor is a great source of refresh, in part because it's a different effect like COR's and BRDs and stacks with all of them. If you're being stuck with the mages, it's basically the best favor effect (well, there's MAB on shiva too)

hiko

06-21-2011, 01:01 AM

The thing is you should always have Haste spell on anyway, with or without a SMN. In the ideal DD setup (where you will want perfect haste) you should have DD DD DD DD DNC WHM where the DNC drops and a BRD comes in to rotate songs.

In that case you will never have a SMN, and that's another reason Samba is better.

But seriously It's much MUCH better than Hastega because its JA haste where Magic haste will usually be capped assuming you have BRD.

droping the dnc is stupid, a buffed dnc is better than an unbeffed one (drop the whm, he don't need to be in pt for most spells anyway)

Why not DD DD DD DD/DNC SMN WHM and the BRD and SMN rotate exact same effect but it doesn't take 80secs for the WHM to finish haste cycle

because DD/DDsub +DNC outdmg DD/dnc +smn

and why use a job that is only good once every min to save haste cycle to the whm?
and IMO if smn have a buff that is worth using, loosing 45sec because you wasted your ward for hastega when the whm could have done it is waste.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 01:05 AM

Razushu

06-21-2011, 01:11 AM

Uh, Favor is a great source of refresh, in part because it's a different effect like COR's and BRDs and stacks with all of them. If you're being stuck with the mages, it's basically the best favor effect (well, there's MAB on shiva too)

Yeah it's just the constant resetting that brings it down for me. If they ever fix favor I'd gladly use it lol

Razushu

06-21-2011, 01:15 AM

droping the dnc is stupid, a buffed dnc is better than an unbeffed one (drop the whm, he don't need to be in pt for most spells anyway)

because DD/DDsub +DNC outdmg DD/dnc +smn

and why use a job that is only good once every min to save haste cycle to the whm?
and IMO if smn have a buff that is worth using, loosing 45sec because you wasted your ward for hastega when the whm could have done it is waste.

It's a buff we can cycle and it's more efficent than spell haste I don't lose anything by keeping it up.

Again not getting into a DMG vs DMG p*ssing contest, SMN adds buffs/DD/support to a party which is a potent combo if used right

Razushu

06-21-2011, 01:23 AM

Good god. How many groups are these people in where there are no other mages tossing out Haste such that Summoner's Hastega suddenly means a flying frappoli?

Protip: When the people in the party would be getting Spell Haste with or without a Summoner, Hastega means absolutely nothing. You are not providing 15% Haste to the party. You are providing 120~ MP to the White or Red Mage. Net gain to DDs from Summoner's Hastega? Zero.

I'm not sure where this "I can do 3 things that Cor can do, all weaker than COR, but I still earn my place" deal is coming from either. I'm sorry, but your definition of "earning a spot" is just different from other people's. Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? No. Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? I'm sorry, but absolutely not. Fortunately for Summoners everywhere, FFXI players are used to having to pull other people's weight on a regular basis.

Maybe the people you play with have to and are happy to pull someone elses weight, I'm not one of them and no one I know is. Please stop trying to tell me that the way I've proven useful time and again doesn't work, because clearly it does or I wouldn't be a career SMN that does it

Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? Absolutely, I see it all the time.

Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? More than enough to justify my being there.

If you're gonna stay close minded and bring nothing to the discussion but "I am right so SFTU" there's no point in you being here. As i said I do it it works, it doesn't stop working because you say so. You can say the sky is green as much as you want but it'll still be blue when I check my window

Korpg

06-21-2011, 01:27 AM

Wait, what the heck is this?

SMN won't outdamage any DDs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outbuff any RDM/WHM/COR/BRD/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outheal any WHM/RDM/SCH/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outnuke any BLM/SCH. That is a universal truth.

Yes, SMN can do all 3 described above without any problems, but that is not the point. SMN will not take over any single job. They just do the same job as everyone else, abet a moderate job. Not enough to not do, but not enough to become the best at in the game.

The point of the SMN is solo ability. SMN can outsolo 17 out of the other 19 jobs, and is equal to the other 2 jobs. Having versatility is just a bonus, not a trait.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 01:35 AM

Korpg

06-21-2011, 01:40 AM

I don't know. I think that if anything, solo ability and versatility aren't equal, because of the limitations on BP timers.

lower our timers, and our versatility goes up like that.

My opinion of the SMN job ability structure.

1)Solo
2)Damage
3)Buffs
4)Heals
5)Versatility

Lower the BP timers, then it becomes:

1)Solo (tie)
1)Damage (tie)
3)Versatility (tie)
3)Buffs (tie)
5)Heals

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 01:42 AM

Solo ability is great, but it adds nothing to party play. Our versatility is as much a trait as our solo ability and it can be used to back up a party well

How versatile are you when White Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Red Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Corsair can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Bard can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Scholar can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Gee, I think I listed every job in the game that's capable of buffing, healing, and damaging simultaneously. They all do it better than Summoner.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 01:48 AM

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 01:48 AM

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Most of your post is correct, however, Dancer's role in the buff department is only Job Ability Haste.

Yes, I know that Haste = Hastaga, and Haste Samba > Hastaga, so lets take that out of the equation. Does SMN have no other buffs to offer? Sure, having special buffs, like AoE Stoneskin, AoE Damage Mitgration, AoE Blink (for those of them who aren't NIN or /NIN or /SAM), AoE Phalanx (for those who aren't SCH or /SCH), AoE Evasion Up, AoE Evasion/Accuracy Up, AoE Spikes (Enspell and Damage Spikes both). I mean, there are a lot more buffs that SMN can give to the party than what DNC is capable of doing. So, I don't think that DNC can outbuff SMN. Outdamage and Outheal, yes.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 01:49 AM

See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

Hmm, and you accuse me of poor reading skills?

Maybe you have selective reasoning disability. You only see what you want to see, and only if it makes you look good.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 01:52 AM

Most of your post is correct, however, Dancer's role in the buff department is only Job Ability Haste.

Yes, I know that Haste = Hastaga, and Haste Samba > Hastaga, so lets take that out of the equation. Does SMN have no other buffs to offer? Sure, having special buffs, like AoE Stoneskin, AoE Damage Mitgration, AoE Blink (for those of them who aren't NIN or /NIN or /SAM), AoE Phalanx (for those who aren't SCH or /SCH), AoE Evasion Up, AoE Evasion/Accuracy Up, AoE Spikes (Enspell and Damage Spikes both). I mean, there are a lot more buffs that SMN can give to the party than what DNC is capable of doing. So, I don't think that DNC can outbuff SMN. Outdamage and Outheal, yes.

This implies that all of those buffs are useful. Phalanx most certainly is not as omgawesome as it sounds. In most cases, the effect is practically moot when dealing with anything that hits harder than an EP mandragora. Stoneskinga has limited use and is also available from practically every SCH and SCH sub mage in existence, so that's not a unique buff. Hastega is also absolutely worthless so I won't start there.

10% JA Haste is absolutely godly in practically every circumstance, even without a bard (looking at going from 40% to 50% Haste for most competent DDs, no bard). I dare say that alone is more of a buff than any sort of Eva boost, crappy Blink, or rehashed Stoneskin can offer. Summoner's best (read: only good) DD buff is completely incompatible with DNC to boot, sharply throttling its practical usefulness.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 01:55 AM

How versatile are you when White Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Red Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Corsair can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Bard can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Scholar can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Gee, I think I listed every job in the game that's capable of buffing, healing, and damaging simultaneously. They all do it better than Summoner.

First off no job can really DD/buff/support at the same time, they can focus on maybe 2 except SMN.

How is this RDM TPing,WS, healing and keeping a refresh/haste cycle all at once?

When Bard can TPing,WS, healing and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Scholar can TPing,WS, healing and nuking and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

DNC gan give drain aspir or haste samba at a time they do better damage but will have to sacrifice TP to heal.

I keep pointing that we aren't the strongest in any particular one role but can add healthy amounts of all 3 at the same time

Dallas

06-21-2011, 01:56 AM

Razushu

06-21-2011, 01:57 AM

Dallas

06-21-2011, 01:58 AM

If the topic is DD, you aren't involved Raz.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 01:58 AM

This implies that all of those buffs are useful. Phalanx most certainly is not as omgawesome as it sounds. In most cases, the effect is practically moot when dealing with anything that hits harder than an EP mandragora. Stoneskinga has limited use and is also available from practically every SCH and SCH sub mage in existence, so that's not a unique buff. Hastega is also absolutely worthless so I won't start there.

10% JA Haste is absolutely godly in practically every circumstance, even without a bard (looking at going from 40% to 50% Haste for most competent DDs, no bard). I dare say that alone is more of a buff than any sort of Eva boost, crappy Blink, or rehashed Stoneskin can offer. Summoner's best (read: only good) DD buff is completely incompatible with DNC to boot, sharply throttling its practical usefulness.

Stoneskinga from a SMN is stronger than one from a SCH or WHM/SCH.

Even then, if you have a SMN who's job is to keep stoneskin up for the tank and DDs in the same party, it frees up the WHM who is supposed to continue to keep the tank and DDs healed. A well placed stoneskin can be the difference between a wipe and a semi-wipe.

Mind you, I wouldn't expect you yourself to have a SMN in the party since I know your caliber of playstyle, but dismissing the idea wholly in favor of DNC's one buff is not right. SMN does have more than one useful buff, abet with limited situations, but still very useful in its own right.

What's worse, a DNC or a DNC with Stoneskin up?

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:03 AM

If the topic is DD, you aren't involved Raz.

Says you, you're the first to mention SMN melee in a while

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:03 AM

Can someone edit the lolwiki then, cause it's still saying Earthern Ward is vastly inferior to Stoneskin.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 02:03 AM

What was typed was MUCH stupider than even your Byakko's Axe WAR idea, Korpg.

GG, mind telling us what the WAR in your math was subbing? I remember it being /SAM for Hasso. Now the WARs want to sub DNC because SMN buffs are too threatening.

You still accuse me of reading comprehension, but you yourself can't comprehend the idea of an example.

I think you are purposefully being stupid because you think it would make your argument look better. Go ahead and continue to use Byakko's Axe from my example if you want to think you look better. Point still stands, melee SMN still sucks, and your argument has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:04 AM

First off no job can really DD/buff/support at the same time, they can focus on maybe 2 except SMN.

How is this RDM TPing,WS, healing and keeping a refresh/haste cycle all at once?

When Bard can TPing,WS, healing and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Scholar can TPing,WS, healing and nuking and keeping a buff cycle up all at once?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

DNC gan give drain aspir or haste samba at a time they do better damage but will have to sacrifice TP to heal.

I keep pointing that we aren't the strongest in any particular one role but can add healthy amounts of all 3 at the same time

That is absolutely not true and you have absolutely no idea what the potential of other jobs is if you think that they are incapable of doing all 3 simultaneously. The better a player is, the better they are able to focus on multiple things at once.

RDM's refresh/Haste cycle is easy and every good RDM in the entire game should have this internalized to the point where it's not even taking a moment of their attention away from everything else. Healing is also very easy, and not something that needs to be spammed fulltime. Good RDMs can melee and outdamage SMN. Good RDMs can also Nuke and outdamage SMN. All while keeping up Haste/Refresh and tossing out cures. I've been doing it every time I've used my RDM without issue. Got spare MP? Not riding your nuke timer and your temp meds? Nuke more.

BRD casts 2 songs every 2-3 minutes. 4 if there's Ballads in play. There's a reason they were so often called on to pull for parties. They have a ton of spare time. And with Evisceration, they handily destroy Summoner in the damage department. They also heal as well, or better, than SMN by having the same spells and better access to fast cast/haste gear/buffs.

SCH can Heal, Buff, and Nuke at the same time easily. That's basically what they do. They will also outdamage Summoner in sheer nuking power, completely ignoring melee. What your pet can do every 45 seconds, they can do every 5-10.

DNC's Haste Samba is singularly better than every Summoner buff in existence combined. They can heal significantly better than Summoner, all while doing exceptional damage. Just ask Byrth, Dancer is sorta his thing. They are exceedingly powerful damage dealers, even more so inside Abyssea.

Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department, while being the best healer in the game and keeping a healthy barspell/Shellra5/Haste/etc set up at all times. I keep my WHM at 88 these days specifically to take advantage of my Octave club offhand and handily destroy things while main healing parties.

Edit: War was /SAM. Also, the SMN in that test was using Red Curry Buns with March +3 x2 and Haste Samba. An unbuffed, unfooded SMN (the way you claim to play it) is not coming anywhere close to their Avatar's damage so please stop throwing around that 150/400 number like it means anything for you personally. It was comparing the theoretical maximums of the jobs.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 02:04 AM

Summary of this page: No one likes a jack of trades.

Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department,BS

Also I'm getting sick of your overuse of the word "handily"

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:05 AM

Says you, you're the first to mention SMN melee in a while

As someone who has used the stupid "TP feed" argument to fill over a dozen posts now, you should know that's referring to a SMN that actually deals damage, not that feeble attempt of yours.

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:05 AM

Summary of this page: No one likes a jack of trades when you have enough specialists to fulfill the roles they can.

We're making progress!

Is there anything in the game that does less damage than Smn meeleeing bar Sch? If it's Nuking you're facing stiff competition from jobs that don't have a 45 second timer on their nukes minus pld/drk.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 02:06 AM

Can someone edit the lolwiki then, cause it's still saying Earthern Ward is vastly inferior to Stoneskin.

Yes please.

I have not done the actual math of it, but I know absorbs more damage than 230.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:07 AM

Summary of this page: No one likes a jack of trades.

BS

Also I'm getting sick of your overuse of the word "handily"

I like the word handily. We've already looked at SMN's damage. Do I really need to go make a spreadsheet for WHM's now too? Hexa Strike is a 7-hit Critical-based WS with STR and MND mods. It is an absolute beast. And the best part is WHM can take advantage of Haste buffs.

Edit: Any time you want to argue about Damage ability, that's all I really should need to say. Haste buffs. Haste buffs. Haste buffs. Get Garuda some marches and we'll talk, buddy.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 02:10 AM

And the best part is WHM can take advantage of Haste buffs.
Stop bringing up haste. Both jobs have native spell haste. If you can have marches, so can I. If you can have haste samba, so can I. The only citeable gap in haste is a small gap in gear haste.

I'll give you your Hexa, and won't argue that one. But for the love of all that's holy, stop pretending like SMN doesn't have its own haste spell or anything.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:11 AM

As someone who has used the stupid "TP feed" argument to fill over a dozen posts now, you should know that's referring to a SMN that actually deals damage, not that feeble attempt of yours.

Saying TP feed repeatedly does not constitute argument unles you're 8yrs old

Aurara

06-21-2011, 02:13 AM

But you still wont be as useful for dmg, as say an WAR NIN MNK DRG SAM COR PUP, etc

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 02:15 AM

Frankly I think the best thing to come out of this thread is acknowledgement of PUP being a decent DD now...

We're making progress! Stop editing quotes. When a new page rolls over and you edit a quote, it makes it look like the person really wrote that.

SMN stomps SCH
SMN stomps a BLM in melee and isn't far off from a BLM that isn't suicidal
Due to lack of good weapon skills and no other real spike damage, SMN probably stomps RDM in melee mode. I suppose RDM could spam nukes and that might be better but that takes you to BLM suicide mode
SMN probably on around the same level with BRD

If there was no cap on BP delay minus, SMN would be more competitive in all roles.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:16 AM

Point still stands, melee SMN still sucks, and your argument has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. It's still the reason why you aren't able to compare YOUR SMN, which hasn't showed up on the radar.

As far as I've seen, there has been no explanation of the following "mathies" flaws:

1) Why they think there is always a pt of exactly 6. Doesn't happen.
2) Why that non-existant pt always has 3 types of haste, only one healer and a WAR who subs /SAM. Doesn't happen.
3) Why a WAR with 80% haste is worried about the WHM running out of MP (in abyssea) instead of the WHM keeping up with heals.
4) Why they think that Ukon math extends to every DD with every weapon.
5) Why SMN being one of the buffers (and backup healers) counts for nothing, and that only DD matters.
6) Why it's OK for a WAR to drop /SAM to fight the claims in #5, as if it does nothing to their epeen setup in #2. They lose Hasso and their Haste Samba is half potency if they use it.
7) WARs are scared to death of the unbuffed maths. Why is that?

Saying TP feed repeatedly does not constitute argument unles you're 8yrs old

Says the "OH NO! 500 DAMAGE!" wimp!

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:19 AM

What the hell did you just type?

Why wouldn't the War be /Sam?

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:21 AM

What the hell did you just type?

Flaws that were ignored because one mathie posted numbers for a WAR in a 5-man party where everyone's job was to make him look good.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:23 AM

Let's face it, Ukon WAR need 3 other people to look good, so divide all their damage by 4.

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:24 AM

Since it didn't get in your thick skull the first time, it was an example of maximum damage potential a job can give (which was unfair, since it compared the best melee DD in the game to the second worst). Yours falls far short on mereesmn.

EDIT: you know what, what in the fuck, I give up. Obligatory are you CM/elementa so I can save everyone else time.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 02:27 AM

Let's face it, Ukon WAR need 3 other people to look good, so divide all their damage by 4.
yeah, that makes real sense, I'm sure those other three people are each responsible for 25% of the WAR's damage... not...

----------

At any rate.... we can have a pissing contest about which job is the best at whatever all day long. All I was ever trying to say is that meleeing increases SMN's damage capability (quite significantly, as the spreadsheeting shows). It's not enough to make SMN a competitive job, which goes to highlight the job's inherent flaws like how it has dozens and dozens of abilities that are all locked to two shared recast timers. But it's still an improvement for the job when used well. It's just not going to be enough to make it any more popular than it is now.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:28 AM

That is absolutely not true and you have absolutely no idea what the potential of other jobs is if you think that they are incapable of doing all 3 simultaneously. The better a player is, the better they are able to focus on multiple things at once.

RDM's refresh/Haste cycle is easy and every good RDM in the entire game should have this internalized to the point where it's not even taking a moment of their attention away from everything else. Healing is also very easy, and not something that needs to be spammed fulltime. Good RDMs can melee and outdamage SMN. Good RDMs can also Nuke and outdamage SMN. All while keeping up Haste/Refresh and tossing out cures. I've been doing it every time I've used my RDM without issue. Got spare MP? Not riding your nuke timer and your temp meds? Nuke more.

BRD casts 2 songs every 2-3 minutes. 4 if there's Ballads in play. There's a reason they were so often called on to pull for parties. They have a ton of spare time. And with Evisceration, they handily destroy Summoner in the damage department. They also heal as well, or better, than SMN by having the same spells and better access to fast cast/haste gear/buffs.

SCH can Heal, Buff, and Nuke at the same time easily. That's basically what they do. They will also outdamage Summoner in sheer nuking power, completely ignoring melee. What your pet can do every 45 seconds, they can do every 5-10.

DNC's Haste Samba is singularly better than every Summoner buff in existence combined. They can heal significantly better than Summoner, all while doing exceptional damage. Just ask Byrth, Dancer is sorta his thing. They are exceedingly powerful damage dealers, even more so inside Abyssea.

Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department, while being the best healer in the game and keeping a healthy barspell/Shellra5/Haste/etc set up at all times. I keep my WHM at 88 these days specifically to take advantage of my Octave club offhand and handily destroy things while main healing parties.

Again yes things will out Damage me, yes they will out buff me yes they will out heal me. but all at the same time I doubt it with the exception of RDM and SCH maybe but hate can become a problem.
DNCs one buff isn't better than all SMN buffs.
BRD this BRD /WHM to heal pull and DD?
WHM yes great DDs but I've yet to see one main heal and buff and while DDing

The fact we can do all three easily at the same time is a good reason to except us.

I'm not trying to say we'll out perform anything just that we perform well enough make usm a worthwhile invite

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:29 AM

yeah, that makes real sense, I'm sure those other three people are each responsible for 25% of the WAR's damage... not...
Of course they aren't, but no one has the guts to show unbuffed contribution of WAR vs SMN. If I alone answer my question, it stands.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:30 AM

Stop bringing up haste. Both jobs have native spell haste. If you can have marches, so can I. If you can have haste samba, so can I. The only citeable gap in haste is a small gap in gear haste.

I'll give you your Hexa, and won't argue that one. But for the love of all that's holy, stop pretending like SMN doesn't have its own haste spell or anything.

Have you looked at how abysmal SMN melee damage is? Especially using Mykrr? A fully buffed (RCB, Marchx2 +3, Haste Samba) SMN is looking at around 250 DPS (400 if you include Garuda spamming claws), compared to a Ukon WAR's 1,000/s. White Mage probably falls in around 500-600, but I can math it out if you really want me to. Haste Spell is only a minor Haste buff. That's 40% total Haste (for a WHM, or 37 for SMN). Add in real Haste buffs. Yes, real ones. Marches. Samba. And White Mage absolutely destroys SMN. Why? Because:

A) Garuda will never get more than 15% Haste

B) Predator Claws will never happen more than every 45 seconds

C) Staff Weaponskills are absolute crap, and every Mykrr used will constitute 0 DMG in the WS phase. Especially if used at 300TP.

D) Garuda will never eat food, and Avatars have abysmal damage ratings and rely primarily on their extremely high pDif cap to deal damage. Result: Attack means a hell of a lot to Avatars, and they are in no way capping it on things higher level than them.

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:32 AM

Frankly I think the best thing to come out of this thread is acknowledgement of PUP being a decent DD now...

Stop editing quotes. When a new page rolls over and you edit a quote, it makes it look like the person really wrote that.

SMN stomps SCH
SMN stomps a BLM in melee and isn't far off from a BLM that isn't suicidal
Due to lack of good weapon skills and no other real spike damage, SMN probably stomps RDM in melee mode. I suppose RDM could spam nukes and that might be better but that takes you to BLM suicide mode
SMN probably on around the same level with BRD

If there was no cap on BP delay minus, SMN would be more competitive in all roles.

1. wut
2. Blm has more defensive abilities than Smn and has no problem going 'suicide' inside abyssea, maybe less outside (Assuming Smn was even in Aoe/melee range)
3. CDC says what to melee argument, still has good defensive tools to blm suicide argument
4. possibly, haven't mathed it out but Brd is still looking more attractive overall.
5. Agreed.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 02:32 AM

Of course they aren't, but no one has the guts to show unbuffed contribution of WAR vs SMN. If I alone answer my question, it stands.
Uhm... that's already been done.

We learned two things:
SMN's damage ability does significantly increase by meleeing with an empyrean/relic weapon (Which is all I'm trying to say)
The WAR still stomps the SMN despite this. (which is what you're failing to argue against)

Have you looked at how abysmal SMN melee damage is?It's not abysmal. It's not anywhere touching a WAR, but a WHM can't do that either. Also, you're wrong that the avatar can't achieve more than 15% haste. You can get pet haste through gear augments.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:32 AM

GG will avoid the question as long as it benefits the BG cause.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:32 AM

Again yes things will out Damage me, yes they will out buff me yes they will out heal me. but all at the same time I doubt it with the exception of RDM and SCH maybe but hate can become a problem.
DNCs one buff isn't better than all SMN buffs.
BRD this BRD /WHM to heal pull and DD?
WHM yes great DDs but I've yet to see one main heal and buff and while DDing

The fact we can do all three easily at the same time is a good reason to except us.

I'm not trying to say we'll out perform anything just that we perform well enough make usm a worthwhile invite

Okay, I'm sorry, but just because you haven't seen a player good enough to do all 3 at the same time doesn't mean it's not very possible and it happens plenty. Personally, I'm more than capable of healing and buffing while DD'ing on my White Mage.

I also never claimed Brd was pulling while DD'ing. They can heal, they can March/Ballad, and they can DD simultaneously. I brought up pulling as a testament to just how much free time Bards have in parties.

And yes. DNC's one buff really, really is. Especially if there's already a bard in the party. But even if there isn't, it is.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:33 AM

ISays the "OH NO! 500 DAMAGE!" wimp!

Any attack that takes 63% of your life is a threat unless you're an idiot. Dude Don't all people a wimp because of how they play a character in a game it makes you sound pathetic it really does.

My point was that if you we're needed to spam AoE cures to keep the party alive(this is as well as the WHM healing) a SMN should really be nowhere near it

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:35 AM

Any attack that takes 63% of your life is a threat unless you're an idiot.

500/.63 = 800 HP in Abyssea?

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:39 AM

Okay, I'm sorry, but just because you haven't seen a player good enough to do all 3 at the same time doesn't mean it's not very possible and it happens plenty. Personally, I'm more than capable of healing and buffing while DD'ing on my White Mage.

I also never claimed Brd was pulling while DD'ing. They can heal, they can March/Ballad, and they can DD simultaneously. I brought up pulling as a testament to just how much free time Bards have in parties.

And yes. DNC's one buff really, really is. Especially if there's already a bard in the party. But even if there isn't, it is.

You misunderstand I've never seen a player have enough free time to do all 3 without atleast 1 of them being sacrificed.

I can pull too never tried it while DD/buffing/support though but I'd say I'm just as capable of doing it as your BRD.

Again theres usually a THF or NIN /DNC in a group so why waste the spot on DNC if they're there for the buff

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:40 AM

500/.63 = 800 HP in Abyssea?

I'm talking about outside Abyssea, I mean what NMs are you fighting that they only do 500 in an attack to a SMN in Abyssea

I was worried you couldn't count way to point out what everyone in the thread probably eyeballed

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:42 AM

I'm talking about outside Abyssea, I mean what NMs are you fighting that they only do 500 in an attack to a SMN in Abyssea

Seeing how rarely I die, I'm guessing most of them.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:43 AM

GG will avoid the question as long as it benefits the BG cause.

What question? A solo WAR with absolutely zero buffs versus a solo SMN?

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

SMN/SAM with Hvergelmir 90, RBC, Haste, and Hasso, same target: 176.057

Garuda brings that up to 288, give or take.

That's not a 7% difference (hint: it's about 25%). It's also heavily in Summoner's favor because they're getting Haste and the WAR isn't.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:43 AM

Seeing how rarely I die, I'm guessing most of them.

I'm beginning to think you're not as stupid as you come across and you carefully select what you melee on as opposed to the persona of "OMG SMN melee is the best thing EVAR! I do it on everything" you push here

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:45 AM

You misunderstand I've never seen a player have enough free time to do all 3 without atleast 1 of them being sacrificed.

I can pull too never tried it while DD/buffing/support though but I'd say I'm just as capable of doing it as your BRD.

Again theres usually a THF or NIN /DNC in a group so why waste the spot on DNC if they're there for the buff

Players have a lot more free time than they realize. A lot of it is just used up thinking about things. After you've played this game for long enough, you really don't need to stop and think any more. When all you need to do is act, you find yourself scrambling to find more things to do to prevent downtime and boredom.

Aurara

06-21-2011, 02:48 AM

It's still the reason why you aren't able to compare YOUR SMN, which hasn't showed up on the radar.

As far as I've seen, there has been no explanation of the following "mathies" flaws:

1) Why they think there is always a pt of exactly 6. Doesn't happen.
2) Why that non-existant pt always has 3 types of haste, only one healer and a WAR who subs /SAM. Doesn't happen.
3) Why a WAR with 80% haste is worried about the WHM running out of MP (in abyssea) instead of the WHM keeping up with heals.
4) Why they think that Ukon math extends to every DD with every weapon.
5) Why SMN being one of the buffers (and backup healers) counts for nothing, and that only DD matters.
6) Why it's OK for a WAR to drop /SAM to fight the claims in #5, as if it does nothing to their epeen setup in #2. They lose Hasso and their Haste Samba is half potency if they use it.
7) WARs are scared to death of the unbuffed maths. Why is that?

Nobody is scared of an unbuffed war, it is still better dmg than smn. Now you're just grasping for straws because your argument holds no water.

Byrth

06-21-2011, 02:48 AM

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:52 AM

Players have a lot more free time than they realize. A lot of it is just used up thinking about things. After you've played this game for long enough, you really don't need to stop and think any more. When all you need to do is act, you find yourself scrambling to find more things to do to prevent downtime and boredom.

Well I guess we have that in common then lol, I found ways to fill my time to. Like I keep saying I'm not trying to convince people that SMN = support king, but if you have a dedicated SMN it can do well enought that the party will notice an improvement worth having the SMN there.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:53 AM

What question? A solo WAR with absolutely zero buffs versus a solo SMN?

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

SMN/SAM with Hvergelmir 90, RBC, Haste, and Hasso, same target: 176.057

Garuda brings that up to 288, give or take.

That's not a 7% difference (hint: it's about 25%). It's also heavily in Summoner's favor because they're getting Haste and the WAR isn't.

And the SMN isn't getting Warcry, and the WAR isn't getting healed. It's a start, but we know that WAR is subbing /DNC.

EDIT: oh, and SMN know what food is too. I am well over 600 attack solo.

Aurara

06-21-2011, 02:54 AM

You dont make ANY sense, why would the war sub dnc?

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:55 AM

Dallas

06-21-2011, 02:55 AM

You dont make ANY sense, why would the war sub dnc?

He's solo. Duh.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:56 AM

You dont make ANY sense, why would the war sub dnc?

I think so he'll be getting a loss in haste gained and the parse might favor Dallas a little more

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 02:56 AM

Good grief. SMN solos better than WAR.

Everyone in the world knows this. No legitimate point is being proven here.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 02:56 AM

It's still the reason why you aren't able to compare YOUR SMN, which hasn't showed up on the radar.

Because I'm not stupid like you and make baseless remarks saying "I can do more damage than an Ukon WAR"

As far as I've seen, there has been no explanation of the following "mathies" flaws:

1) Why they think there is always a pt of exactly 6. Doesn't happen.
2) Why that non-existant pt always has 3 types of haste, only one healer and a WAR who subs /SAM. Doesn't happen.
3) Why a WAR with 80% haste is worried about the WHM running out of MP (in abyssea) instead of the WHM keeping up with heals.
4) Why they think that Ukon math extends to every DD with every weapon.
5) Why SMN being one of the buffers (and backup healers) counts for nothing, and that only DD matters.
6) Why it's OK for a WAR to drop /SAM to fight the claims in #5, as if it does nothing to their epeen setup in #2. They lose Hasso and their Haste Samba is half potency if they use it.
7) WARs are scared to death of the unbuffed maths. Why is that?

Ok then:

1) Because 6+ parties don't exist. Well, for you they don't, but everyone else?
2) Because the best damage comes from capped haste. In case you didn't know, because you aren't a DD, there are 3 types of haste: gear, magic, and job ability. Well, you need 3 jobs to give you those 3 types of haste to cap, since job ability haste (outside of DRK) can't be capped without 2 of those jobs. But nobody expected you to know that.
3) Believe it or not, things hit for more than 20 damage per hit. WARs can tank, really easy, which is saying much more than what you can do. Nobody expected you to know that, since you can't do enough damage to get to the top of the hate list, so here you go. More damage = higher enmity = tanking. Broke it down to your reading comprehension I hope. Sorry for the lack of colors, I didn't bring any crayons.
4) Because there are more Ukons than Emp staves out there? They were giving you the benefit of the doubt, made you look really good, and yet, WAR still beat you 5 to 1.
5) Because your argument of beating a Ukon WAR in total damage ability.
6) Your reading comprehension sucks, you know that, right? That was not the argument, the argument was Haste vs Haste Samba.
7) Buffed Math made SMNs look good. You want unbuffed Math instead? Why? So the difference would be 10 to 1 in favor of WAR?

You were the one spouting your mouth off. Everyone has proven you wrong, why haven't you learned to shush and saved yourself even more embarrassment on your part? Everyone who reads this thread is never going to take anything you say, and you keep giving everyone more reason to ignore you. If not for the sake of everyone, for your sake, just stop typing and log out of this forum.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 02:57 AM

He's solo. Duh.

then why is the SMN/SAM?

Aurara

06-21-2011, 02:59 AM

So he can pretend that he's doing more dmg than the war of course.
Edit: Dallas, you continue to argue a losing side, its like arguing physics of KFK assassination of being false(something I have done for a school project). No matter how much you try and argue your side, the evidence, the physical.mathematical evidence is true, and you can't prove it wrong.

Khiinroye

06-21-2011, 03:00 AM

GG, are those numbers including extra attacks from retaliation? And are you assuming that the war and smn have the same accuracy?

Raksha

06-21-2011, 03:02 AM

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 03:02 AM

Retaliation not being countered is leaning it in the Summoner's favor, which is how bad the disparity is. Accuracy is assumed capped (not too hard on the target mob inside abyssea).

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 03:05 AM

GG, are those numbers including extra attacks from retaliation? And are you assuming that the war and smn have the same accuracy?

Completely ignoring Blood Rage, Retaliation, Meditate, and Sekkanoki + Self-Light. All of which tip the balance severely into WAR's favor even further. I was also assuming a level 95 target with 407 Eva and 92 AGI, which the Summoner would be capping accuracy on.

However, I did totally slip up and forget that Summoners don't have A+ skill in Staff, so the corrected SMN DPS is 163.309 or 275 with Garuda.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 03:14 AM

While the master is clearly capable of more than the avatar, it's still pointless to argue that SMN can even breathe the same air as basically one of the best DDs in the game with the best gear.

Please, just stop dallas, you're not helping your cause at all.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 03:17 AM

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

281 damage absorbed.

Yeah, not the same as Stoneskin, but not the 220 that wiki says.

So Earthen Ward isn't as good as a WHM/SCH's version. At least we get that out of the way. But I still say that SMN's buffs is much better than DNC because it has other buffs besides haste. If given the choice between DNC or SMN, I would probably pick DNC because their haste is JA haste, not spell haste. But working together, SMN still outshines DNC.

Edit: If it helps any at all, my BP:W macro has 438 Summoning Magic associated with it. My BP:R macro is different than BP:W because I don't care much about the 15 seconds on Wards than I do for Rages. Soloing, I don't need to cure my avatar once every 45 seconds, more like once every minute. Now by the looks of it, SMN magic does more than extend the timer of Wards.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 03:23 AM

Korpg

06-21-2011, 03:33 AM

What buff does SMN give that can rival 10% Haste? They have literally 0 offensive buffs that stack with DNC aside from Acc+ or that stat+ thing, and their only decent defensive buffs are either outclassed by more mainstream jobs (Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward) or are basically worthless (Eva boost?). Shock spikes?

Serious question at this point, because I'm really just not seeing it.

Magic Attack Bonus/Magic Defensive Bonus comes to mind. They are the only type of buffs you can get outside of rolls. No other job except a Diffusion BLU can give you anything near it.

I know that there is not a situation where a SMN's buffs would make/break a kill, but we are talking about situations where a SMN can help. DNC can give one type of buff, SMN can adapt to a multitude of buffs. If the mob is evasive enough where the DDs need to have more accuracy, you can give the DDs a Ecliptic Roar and have the DDs eat meat instead of sushi or pizza.

Any buff a SMN can give will increase the kill speed and/or decrease the death speed. DNC too, but DNC's buff only on both the DD's ability to hit the mob and the DNC's ability to hit the mob, a wiff from a DD and they lose the buff.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 03:37 AM

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

I'm just pissing off everyone else by mentioning solo. A realistic scenario is somewhere in between. I needed the numbers to the value of buffs. Thank you.

So, quick calcs:

4x WAR is 1400 damage, 1 WAR buffed by 3 people is 1000 damage. Seems pretty stupid to buff a WAR unless you assume those buffers are also dealing damage. Argument pro-melee SMN, melee DNC, etc.

Splitting:

The WAR is contributing little more to a party, but I will give him credit for bringing 35% haste out of 80%. I'll split 650 (WAR buffs) and 125 (SMN buffs) accordingly.

WAR (35% self, no party haste) : 284 (self) + 0 SMN + 350 unbuffed = 634
SMN (48% self, 15% party) : 122 (WAR) + 75 self + 275 unbuffed = 472
DNC (10% party): 81 (WAR) + 16 (SMN) + ??? = 97 + ???
BRD (up to cap): 167 (WAR) + 34 (SMN) + ??? = 201 + ???

Obviously, SMN would get more contribution if the DNC and BRD meleed as well. Someone needs to melee, because one meleeing WAR isn't enough.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 03:39 AM

Magic Attack Bonus/Magic Defensive Bonus comes to mind. They are the only type of buffs you can get outside of rolls. No other job except a Diffusion BLU can give you anything near it.

I know that there is not a situation where a SMN's buffs would make/break a kill, but we are talking about situations where a SMN can help. DNC can give one type of buff, SMN can adapt to a multitude of buffs. If the mob is evasive enough where the DDs need to have more accuracy, you can give the DDs a Ecliptic Roar and have the DDs eat meat instead of sushi or pizza.

Any buff a SMN can give will increase the kill speed and/or decrease the death speed. DNC too, but DNC's buff only on both the DD's ability to hit the mob and the DNC's ability to hit the mob, a wiff from a DD and they lose the buff.

SMN can definitely buff a mage party pretty well, no argument there. I'm pretty sure SMN/RDM is still king for most party refresh in a single party slot as well. I was speaking solely in terms of SMN in a DD party.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 03:41 AM

I don't know of any other job that can solo Onvi.....

Wow, every time, every forum you prove just how much you suck at this game.

You can solo Ovni on a lot of jobs including but not limited to bst, thf, mnk, pup, dnc, etc.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 03:44 AM

I'm just pissing off everyone else by mentioning solo. A realistic scenario is somewhere in between. I needed the numbers to the value of buffs. Thank you.

So, quick calcs:

4x WAR is 1400 damage, 1 WAR buffed by 3 people is 1000 damage. Seems pretty stupid to buff a WAR unless you assume those buffers are also dealing damage. Argument pro-melee SMN, melee DNC, etc.

Splitting:

The WAR is contributing little more to a party, but I will give him credit for bringing 35% haste out of 80%. I'll split 650 (WAR buffs) and 125 (SMN buffs) accordingly.

WAR (35% self, no party haste) : 284 (self) + 0 SMN + 350 unbuffed = 634
SMN (48% self, 15% party) : 122 (WAR) + 75 self + 275 unbuffed = 472
DNC (10% party): 81 (WAR) + 16 (SMN) + ??? = 97 + ???
BRD (up to cap): 167 (WAR) + 34 (SMN) + ??? = 201 + ???

Obviously, SMN would get more contribution if the DNC and BRD meleed as well. Someone needs to melee, because one meleeing WAR isn't enough.

Rhetorical question: Are you dumb?

The DNC has to melee period, Samba doesn't just magically appear on the mobs. They're also damn good at it. White mages and Bards are in decent parties anyways. 3x DD, BRD, WHM, DNC is a perfectly solid, common party setup for groups that, well, don't suck and are actually bringing 6 people. Hell, it's not uncommon to just do 4x DD, BRD/NIN, DNC, with a WHM outside the party because they're perfectly capable of Accessioning Cures and Shell if they need to. The only reason you don't see it more often in high-end groups is that they don't always bring 6 people, or they're bringing 6 people but including Grellow triggers.

Summoner is the weakest link. Putting them in a group means ditching a WAR, and receiving no new buffs of any value from the Summoner (herp you think they don't have a WHM for Haste?).

Korpg

06-21-2011, 03:52 AM

Wow, every time, every forum you prove just how much you suck at this game.

You can solo Ovni on a lot of jobs including but not limited to bst, thf, mnk, pup, dnc, etc.

Hey Dallas, I got a friend for you.

Besides that, you obviously don't read later on and see that I already stated that I didn't know that a THF or DNC have solo'd Ovni also. I knew a RDM could at level 85, but with brew, so I didn't count that.

How about reading everything before typing? K?

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 03:54 AM

Hey Dallas, I got a friend for you.

Besides that, you obviously don't read later on and see that I already stated that I didn't know that a THF or DNC have solo'd Ovni also. I knew a RDM could at level 85, but with brew, so I didn't count that.

How about reading everything before typing? K?
If you were an idiot on page 2, then I'm going to call you an idiot. If someone came and told you differently later and you realized you were wrong, you were still wrong. I don't need to read 17 pages to tell you a statement you made on page 2 was wrong.

Whether or not you corrected it later is of no concern to me.

Edit: Also you I didn't need to read you saying you didn't know other jobs could solo it when i already knew you didn't know that based on what you said from page 2

Korpg

06-21-2011, 03:58 AM

If you were an idiot on page 2, then I'm going to call you an idiot. If someone came and told you differently later and you realized you were wrong, you were still wrong. I don't need to read 17 pages to tell you a statement you made on page 2 was wrong.

Whether or not you corrected it later is of no concern to me.

Edit: Also you I didn't need to read you saying you didn't know other jobs could solo it when i already knew you didn't know that based on what you said from page 2

I was corrected, and unlike you, I accept my mistakes.

It is not my fault you refuse to read past the first sentence, and like to point out every little mistake everyone else makes just to boost your ego.

Besides, why are you here anyway? You have nothing to contribute to this thread. Unless you are here to show your support to Dallas. I see you got your pompoms out for him already.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 04:01 AM

RDM could solo Ovni at 80 without brew, but that's not really the point. Besides, who wasted 2,000,000 cruor on Ovni at 85? I legitimately did not know that someone actually did something so ... dumb.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 04:03 AM

I was corrected, and unlike you, I accept my mistakes.

It is not my fault you refuse to read past the first sentence, and like to point out every little mistake everyone else makes just to boost your ego.

Besides, why are you here anyway? You have nothing to contribute to this thread. Unless you are here to show your support to Dallas. I see you got your pompoms out for him already.
Korpg, worst assumption in the land

Razushu

06-21-2011, 04:11 AM

SMN can definitely buff a mage party pretty well, no argument there. I'm pretty sure SMN/RDM is still king for most party refresh in a single party slot as well. I was speaking solely in terms of SMN in a DD party.

I can give 15% haste, 8% attk bonus and 35~dmg enfire full time with room for another buff in the cycle

Dallas

06-21-2011, 04:13 AM

(herp you think they don't have a WHM for Haste?).

You're talking to the SMN who hastes their pets. It's the only way. The SMN hastes that party. You also have a WAR/SAM, which (last I read) was not the tank option (WAR/MNK was). The WHM will be healing the WAR a lot and needs to be free to do so.

Aurara

06-21-2011, 04:15 AM

I can give 15% haste, 8% attk bonus and 35~dmg enfire full time with room for another buff in the cycle

I can haste the DDs, and let the COR+BRDs give the same(if not better buffs) sans 35 enfire which doesnt stack with haste samba.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 04:18 AM

I can give 15% haste, 8% attk bonus and 35~dmg enfire full time with room for another buff in the cycle

Hastega is worthless from a DD perspective when there is any other mage already in the party. Please don't start with that again. Enfire also does not stack with the single best en-buff in the entire game, so it's also practically worthless in a competently formed group.

The only thing of merit in the entire post is 8% Attack Boost, and what's that from anyways? I thought Ifrit's favor was DA. Please don't say Warcry?

Dallas

06-21-2011, 04:36 AM

GG, just go 4x WAR. All this mage crap just gets in the way of good ole hack'n'slash.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 04:38 AM

Hastega is worthless from a DD perspective when there is any other mage already in the party. Please don't start with that again. Enfire also does not stack with the single best en-buff in the entire game, so it's also practically worthless in a competently formed group.

The only thing of merit in the entire post is 8% Attack Boost, and what's that from anyways? I thought Ifrit's favor was DA. Please don't say Warcry?

I'll keep starting with Haste because I have it, and I've yet to be told to let the WHM haste the group so the point is valid.
Because there's always a DNC in the group(not to mention if there was I'd apply a different buff). It's from Crimson howl.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 04:42 AM

I'll keep starting with Haste because I have it, and I've yet to be told to let the WHM haste the group so the point is valid.
No, it's not
Group w/ you = everyone has haste
Group w/o you = everyone has haste.

There's no haste gained from you being in the party. You just alleviate the whm the tediousness of casting it fast 4 times vs you casting it once.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 04:44 AM

I'll keep starting with Haste because I have it, and I've yet to be told to let the WHM haste the group so the point is valid.
Because there's always a DNC in the group(not to mention if there was I'd apply a different buff). It's from Crimson howl.

It doesn't matter if you Haste the group or the WHM Hastes the group. The point is that the group has Haste whether you are there or not.

If there is no SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste. If there is a SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste or SMN uses Hastega.

What is the benefit of SMN using Hastega? Not 15% Haste for DDs, because they have that whether or not the SMN is there. The benefit is 120-160~ MP for the WHM, assuming they are still hasting themselves and are not hasting the SMN.

Hastega is not adding Haste. Hastega is adding MP. That is not a DD buff. Heck, it is not even a boon to the WHM unless that 40-53MP/minute they save is the make/break for them running out of MP over time or not. Effective value of Hastega? Convenience. Nothing more, nothing less.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 04:46 AM

Hastega is worthless from a DD perspective when there is any other mage already in the party. Please don't start with that again.Incorrect. If there is a summoner present, regardless of who else is in the party that might be WHM or RDM or subbing WHM, Hastega should be used, not Haste. Yes, "If there is a summoner present" is a massive if. But pretending that this is not a fact is ludicrous.

Enfire also does not stack with the single best en-buff in the entire game, so it's also practically worthless in a competently formed group.Unless you're a red mage, what enspell is better than ifrit's enfire? Don't say haste samba or I'll slap you, because
1) Haste samba is not a spell
2) you're not that much more likely to have a dancer in the party than a summoner
3) It's only "good" if it's from main DNC, where it is twice as effective if merited, but see # 2)

A "competently built" party can include a summoner. Change "competent" to "the best" or "elitist" and then I can agree with you. Dancers are not super common either, so you're not always going to have full merit haste samba. If you have it, sure, you should use it. But enfire is a perfectly good buff to use otherwise. Unless you're in some elitist only club, you're not going to be able to form parties with the top 1% performers all the time.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 04:48 AM

Incorrect. If there is a summoner present, regardless of who else is in the party that might be WHM or RDM or subbing WHM, Hastega should be used, not Haste. Yes, "If there is a summoner present" is a massive if. But pretending that this is not a fact is ludicrous.

Unless you're a red mage, what enspell is better than ifrit's enfire? Don't say haste samba or I'll slap you, because
1) Haste samba is not a spell
2) you're not that much more likely to have a dancer in the party than a summoner
3) It's only "good" if it's from main DNC, where it is twice as effective if merited, but see number 2)

A "competently built" party can include a summoner. Change "competent" to "the best" or "elitist" and then I can agree with you. Dancers are not super common either, so you're not always going to have full merit haste samba.

I said en-buff, not spell. Haste. Samba. Read Cream Soda's post and my own right above yours.

Also, note my standards when I say "Competent". What competent group does not have at least one Dancer available to them? What competent player is unable to level and gear Dancer at a basic level (basic gear swaps, some +1 AF3, decent non-magian daggers) within a week of playing, tops?

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 04:51 AM

Incorrect. If there is a summoner present, regardless of who else is in the party that might be WHM or RDM or subbing WHM, Hastega should be used, not Haste. Yes, "If there is a summoner present" is a massive if. But pretending that this is not a fact is ludicrous.He said from a DD perspective. Learn how to read. The person who benefits from this is the whm or rdm since they save mp not having to cast haste x number of times vs the smns casting it once.

The DDs gain nothing because w/ or w/o the smn, they will have haste regardless.

Unless you're a red mage, what enspell is better than ifrit's enfire? Don't say haste samba or I'll slap you, because
1) Haste samba is not a spell It doesn't have to be a spell, however, the effect of it is still in the same category and the point is they do not stack. If your first line of defense is "its not a spell" then you should probably rethink your argument, as whether or not its a spell has 0 to do w/ the comparison of samba to enfire

Edit: Wow, I should have figured you'd mess that one up. He's right, he did say en-buff. He never claimed it to be a spell to begin with.

2) you're not that much more likely to have a dancer in the party than a summonerDoesn't mean they don't stack and that samba isn't better.

3) It's only "good" if it's from main DNC, where it is twice as effective if merited, but see number 2)It's only at its maximum potential if its merited, even w/ 0 merits, it's still multiple times better than enfire.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 04:54 AM

I said en-buff, not spell. Haste. Samba. Read Cream Soda's post and my own right above yours.

Also, note my standards when I say "Competent". What competent group does not have at least one Dancer available to them? What competent player is unable to level and gear Dancer at a basic level (basic gear swaps, some +1 AF3, decent non-magian daggers) within a week of playing, tops?

replace "unable" with "want to" and you see why not everyone has a DNC around full time.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 04:55 AM

I just wondered something. How do the Ukon "TP feed" complainers feel about that meleeing DNC needed to make them "BG fapproved?"

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 04:56 AM

replace "unable" with "want to" and you see why not everyone has a SMN around full time.
I concur, good sir

hiko

06-21-2011, 04:57 AM

dnc doing over twice as much dmg your crapy smn, not including the gain other DD get from samba?

Razushu

06-21-2011, 05:01 AM

replace "unable" with "want to" and you see why not everyone has a DNC(SMN*) around full time.
I concur, good sir

Please don't edit my posts its rude

*Cream_Soda edited my post to say SMN

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 05:02 AM

What competent group does not have at least one Dancer available to them?Lots of them. The majority of them even. Your standards are top 1%. Any group can do just dam fine without a dancer.
Here's a scale for overcoming a typical challenge:

0-------------1--------^---------2-^-----#-3------4---*-5

0 = unable to win
1 = Able to win but facing high difficulty, wipes or excessive time required
2 = Able to win with minor problems in a reasonable time
3 = Able to win easily, no significant issues in a good time
4 = Nearly effortless winning in an unusually quick time
5 = Flawless victory in record time

* = your standard, based on your attitude, people you appear to associate with, use of formulas/spreadsheets etc to determine performance, and apparent achievements.
# = Standard I would hold a player of above-average experience to
^ ^ = typical range of performance for the average out of all players attempting challenge.

It is evident to me that you demand near perfection in party setup, performance, strategy and player ability; a standard you should not be holding the playerbase at large to, as it is just not going to happen.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 05:02 AM

dnc doing over twice as much dmg your crapy smn, not including the gain other DD get from samba?

And my SMN is giving more buffs and extra haste

Aurara

06-21-2011, 05:02 AM

I just wondered something. How do the Ukon "TP feed" complainers feel about that meleeing DNC needed to make them "BG fapproved?"

Because the dnc can help cure and adds to dmg?

Dallas

06-21-2011, 05:04 AM

dnc doing over twice as much dmg your crapy smn, not including the gain other DD get from samba?

So, you are saying that your DNC does 800 to a WAR's 1000, adds to party haste, and has the second best heals? Let's throw out the WAR then!

Dallas

06-21-2011, 05:05 AM

Because the dnc can help cure and adds to dmg?

You know, back in the day, I remember SMN braggin that their version of Cure 3 was all a party ever needed.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 05:05 AM

Please don't edit my posts its rude
Hypocrite

"Hey, I'm editing your post, but don't edit mine."

Aurara

06-21-2011, 05:06 AM

smn was never considered a good healer...they were always last resort...lol

Razushu

06-21-2011, 05:09 AM

Hypocrite

"Hey, I'm editing your post, but don't edit mine."

You started it and I apologise, it was meant in jest.

-EDIT- fixed it for you

Razushu

06-21-2011, 05:13 AM

smn was never considered a good healer...they were always last resort...lol

At 75 I was a great healer unless something like Stona was needed

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 05:20 AM

Lots of them. The majority of them even. Your standards are top 1%. Any group can do just dam fine without a dancer.
Here's a scale for overcoming a typical challenge:

0-------------1--------^---------2-^-----#-3------4---*-5

0 = unable to win
1 = Able to win but facing high difficulty, wipes or excessive time required
2 = Able to win with minor problems in a reasonable time
3 = Able to win easily, no significant issues in a good time
4 = Nearly effortless winning in an unusually quick time
5 = Flawless victory in record time

* = your standard, based on your attitude, people you appear to associate with, use of formulas/spreadsheets etc to determine performance, and apparent achievements.
# = Standard I would hold a player of above-average experience to
^ ^ = typical range of performance for the average out of all players attempting challenge.

It is evident to me that you demand near perfection in party setup, performance, strategy and player ability; a standard you should not be holding the playerbase at large to, as it is just not going to happen.

Can't deny any of this. Though I don't feel my standards are unreasonable, personally. There is a difference between perfection and reasonable execution. I'm not Thornyy. I don't expect flawless victories in record time. But I do expect a certain amount of respect for my time and for the time of the people around me when rolling with people.

If we're going to be killing something or other, and 3/4 of us are on our top-performing jobs because we want to contribute our utmost to one another, would I feel neglected if the 4th person were to skip out on that responsibility and come +2 farming/Emp farming on SMN? Yes, just a bit. If we had all our Reds, all our Grellows, and sufficient healing/buffing around, would I care too much? Not really. Hell, a buddy of mine still comes Almace-PLD for shits when we have an unusually high number of people around and I don't care. It's only when the choice to come Summoner, or Paladin, or insert-useless-crap-here detrimentally affects the other people in the group that it's really an issue for me.

I never said that people shouldn't come SMN to things if it's what they enjoy and the group is fine without them. But SMN is basically bottom of the barrel regardless, and there's really no changing that. I've learned to accept that about PLD, and I work with it in that manner. Trying to defend a bottom-tier job is a fruitless and, frankly, pointless endeavor.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 05:41 AM

GG, I know you think the idea is stupid that WAR isn't a god, but how would you credit the other 3 jobs for getting your WAR from 350 to 1000? A WAR is all take, and no give. A "contribution adjustment" is the only way a WAR can even talk to hybrid job.

I have proposed that a very generous WAR contribution assumption puts WAR a maximum 34% above SMN, fully buffed. This is compared to your 25% unbuffed. Considering that the SMN would have more contribution if you add in the buffs to DNC and BRD, this means that SMN is contributing to a party as effectively as they solo.

Sure, pet's are a crutch, MP is a crutch, but a Hver SMN is not. Take away that Ukon WS/aftermath and put on a weaker weapon and see how a contribution adjusted score runs. If the WAR starts trailing on damage, he doesn't have anything else to offer.

Byrth

06-21-2011, 05:42 AM

You can't really pull out the "your standards are too high" defense in this thread. You're talking about one of the big-3 weapons. If you're getting it, your standards are high, you personally aspire to be quite well geared, and you likely play with people that feel the same.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 05:43 AM

What is the SMN contributing again?

Because it sure as hell isn't Haste. Aside from Garuda. They're hasting Garuda. Epic contribution to the group right there.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 05:54 AM

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing Haste. Try to rise above the stupidity drilled into your head by BG.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 05:58 AM

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing MP to the WHM. Unless of course there is no other mage in the party at all. If SMN is the only mage, you have a valid point. Now good luck killing things as a Melee-SMN solo-healer.

hiko

06-21-2011, 05:58 AM

if the party already have a healer (wich is the case >95%) then the smn doesnt contribute with hastega (bar saving the haster few mp/maccro press)

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:01 AM

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing Haste. Try to rise above the stupidity drilled into your head by BG.
this was covered twice

selective reading hurr durr and yea Korpg is a huge tard for coming to his assumption that I came here to support/cheer you on, lol

No, it's not
Group w/ you = everyone has haste
Group w/o you = everyone has haste.

There's no haste gained from you being in the party. You just alleviate the whm the tediousness of casting it fast 4 times vs you casting it once.

It doesn't matter if you Haste the group or the WHM Hastes the group. The point is that the group has Haste whether you are there or not.

If there is no SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste. If there is a SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste or SMN uses Hastega.

What is the benefit of SMN using Hastega? Not 15% Haste for DDs, because they have that whether or not the SMN is there. The benefit is 120-160~ MP for the WHM, assuming they are still hasting themselves and are not hasting the SMN.

Hastega is not adding Haste. Hastega is adding MP. That is not a DD buff. Heck, it is not even a boon to the WHM unless that 40-53MP/minute they save is the make/break for them running out of MP over time or not. Effective value of Hastega? Convenience. Nothing more, nothing less.
Whether you have the smn or not, you get haste.

Let's say you have a brd and get dual marches.

remove the bard, you no longer have marches.

There's a difference.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:05 AM

You guys just need to ignore Dallas. His argument is that if it isn't him, it isn't worth his time.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:07 AM

selective reading hurr durr and yea Korpg is a huge tard for coming to his assumption that I came here to support/cheer you on, lol

Well, why else did you come here?

You are just a MNK, you have no say in anything about Emp Staff or Melee SMN.

You are just instigating fights again, why do you even bother?

Dallas

06-21-2011, 06:08 AM

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing MP to the WHM.

And the WAR using Hasso is taking MP from the WHM. A WHM hasting the party in the presence of Garuda is taking damage from the party and time away from curing the MP sponge.

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 06:08 AM

ITT: Only Summoners can talk about Summoner?

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:10 AM

With that logic, you're just a non emp smn, you have no say on emp staff smn.

I came because it was a popular topic.
I posted because
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMiObx_zMRM

Let's see what crazy assumption you come up with next

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:11 AM

And the WAR using Hasso is taking MP from the WHM. A WHM hasting the party in the presence of Garuda is taking damage from the party and time away from curing the MP sponge.
Right, because if you don't have a smn in your pt, there isn't another member there to not only replace, but exceed garuda's dmg.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:14 AM

ITT: Only Summoners can talk about Summoner?

No, its not that, and you know it.

We are not talking about jobs in general, or MNK specifically, or the effects of anything that effects him personally.

It is about him trying to make himself look better because he needs to stroke his ego like that.

It wouldn't be any different if I went to a MNK forum and tell them that they need to Chi Blast even more, or whatever stupid reason.

He has contributed nothing to this thread. The first thing he did was point out a mistake I made 70 pages ago, one that if he even read the next 3 pages, he would see me admitting my mistake, but he still had to point it out JUST to stoke his ego.

Even then, he keeps pointing out things that were already discussed and proven just to start going after a few people. Why? Because he wants to look good to others, especially to the BG group he loves so much.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:17 AM

Assumption #2(for today, lost count in the long run), good job, sir.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:18 AM

It wouldn't be any different if I went to a MNK forum and tell them that they need to Chi Blast even more, or whatever stupid reason.
Please, point out where I told SMNs what they need to do.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:20 AM

Though I don't feel my standards are unreasonable, personally.It is absolutely unreasonable to expect or demand near perfection from everyone around you. Perfection is not critical to success, it's just something to brag about. It is also unreasonable to refuse to associate with anyone that's less perfect than you, until you reach so far down that you become unable to accomplish what you need to accomplish without a large amount of frustration or hassle.

Perfection is a laudable goal for oneself, but it is unreasonable to expect it from others.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 06:20 AM

Well, why else did you come here?

You are just a MNK, you have no say in anything about Emp Staff or Melee SMN.

You are just instigating fights again, why do you even bother?

Korpg, I flushed out BG for a reason. The simple jobs snuffed out the hybrid jobs because they didn't understand them. As you can see, they still don't understand them.

This is bigger than you and me. That's why I predict this thread will get to 100+ posts. BG can't let mages melee because mages have an unparsable worth. If you can't put two numbers side-by-side, elitists get rid of it. You either do the most damage or help the guy who does the most damage.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:22 AM

Please, point out where I told SMNs what they need to do.

Please point out your contribution into this topic

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 06:23 AM

It is absolutely unreasonable to expect or demand near perfection from everyone around you. Perfection is not critical to success, it's just something to brag about. It is also unreasonable to refuse to associate with anyone that's less perfect than you.

Did you even read the rest of my post?

My two best friends in-game are a 'main-job' Almace BLU and a 'main-job' Almace PLD. We built those Almaces together, too. Do they ever see me complain about the loss of potential Kannagis? Ha, no. But do they come on BRD and WHM when we need them to? Without a doubt.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:26 AM

You're talking about one of the big-3 weapons.You hardly need to be elite to obtain an empyrean weapon.

But do they come on BRD and WHM when we need them to? Without a doubt. If you need something, you need something. You never NEED a dancer, you never NEED most of the jobs. That doesn't mean they can't be used once the absolute without a doubt needs are covered.

Do I demand that I be able to be come PUP if the group needs a healer? No. But if we have what we need already, is there something wrong with bringing some not-absolutely-essential job? Of course there isn't. It is unreasonable to demand that you have the perfect maximum efficiency party. As long as you have everything you need for a given activity, there is plenty of leeway to bring other jobs. The whole reason there are 20 jobs in the first place is for variety. You could easily eliminate 3/4ths of them without impacting the beatability of any fight. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with using any of them.

You have no idea how many events throughout history that I've used a summoner at where when talking with various people before the event they said "You'll never beat that with a summoner in the party" and not just cleared it with flying colors, but made a useful contribution.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 06:26 AM

We must assume that mages have read your posts, GG. Otherwise, you'd have mage friends coming as mages.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:26 AM

Please point out your contribution into this topic
In regards to the OP, nothing. In regards to the conversation that was taking place at the time I stepped into the thread, check the past few pages, I've been talking about the current topic.

Though, dodging my question with one of your own, good job. I'm not the one here making assumptions and accusations. You'd have (some?) credibility if you were able to back anything you said up, but as soon as you're called out on something, you just try to find something else to complain about in its place.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 06:31 AM

This is going nowhere you guys are never gonna accept SMN as a good job in any role, and the SMNs here clearly aren't gonna accept that we're useless. So why don't we all accept our inescapably different steadfast positions on it move past the argument and move on to something else, like bashing Dallas(sorry buddy, but this is your best chance to play the messiah you think you are to SMN) or something.

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:31 AM

In regards to the OP, nothing. In regards to the conversation that was taking place at the time I stepped into the thread, check the past few pages, I've been talking about the current topic.

Though, dodging my question with one of your own, good job. I'm not the one here making assumptions and accusations. You'd have more credibility if you were able to back anything you said up, but as soon as you're called out on something, you just try to find something else to complain about in its place.

What was the first post on this thread? It certainly wasn't about the topic on hand, or even something that was being talked about for the last 50 pages.

My assumptions were right on the money, wasn't it? You came here to cause problems, because that is what you are known for. Sure, you actually give some good advice when asked, but nobody asked you anything at all, and you still had to bring your nose into something that did not affect you.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:32 AM

This is really getting to a point of absolute absurdity. I'm honestly surprised this has been allowed to go on for 37 pages (by my posts-per-page setting)

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:33 AM

Don't worry, this thread will be locked very soon.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:38 AM

What was the first post on this thread? It certainly wasn't about the topic on hand, or even something that was being talked about for the last 50 pages.

My assumptions were right on the money, wasn't it? You came here to cause problems, because that is what you are known for. Sure, you actually give some good advice when asked, but nobody asked you anything at all, and you still had to bring your nose into something that did not affect you.
I never claimed my first post was about the current topic in the past few pages. I said I've made posts which contribute to that conversation. Learn to read. My first post was to correct a mistake a saw and provide additional information based on what I quoted. Am I going to read 600+ posts to see if someone already addressed you? No sir. If you expected me to, tough luck. I saw some of the jobs I posted mentioned in the few posts I did read, but not all of the jobs I mentioned.

As far as nobody asking me anything, I don't really care. Again, tough luck. Become a moderator and then you can tell me where I can post and what I can post about. Until then, your opinion on that matter is irrelevant to me.

Dallas

06-21-2011, 06:41 AM

We have come from "WAR are 5x as good as SMN" to "How dare you count your best buff when any mage could do it over a longer period of time and for more mp!"

I call that progress.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:42 AM

We have come from "WAR are 5x as good as SMN" to "How dare you count your best buff when any mage could do it over a longer period of time and for more mp!"

I call that progress.
It's more like
No smn in your pt = everyone has haste
Smn in your pt = everyone has haste

Whether or not the smn is there, everyone has the exact same amount of haste.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 06:44 AM

It's more like
No smn in your pt = everyone has haste
Smn in your pt = everyone has haste

Whether or not the smn is there, everyone has the exact same amount of haste.

If the WHM is hasting the group, and SMN brings more than haste to a group

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:46 AM

Whether or not the smn is there, everyone has the exact same amount of haste. Assuming that whoever hast he haste spell is consistently casting it on everyone before their haste timers are up so that no one is ever without it for a second, which is really extremely unlikely. More likely than not, the haster is skipping one or two people that don't "need" it, whereas SMN doesn't have that problem. Everybody gets it easily with minimal effort and no one gets left out.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:46 AM

If the WHM is hasting the group, and SMN brings more than haste to a group
A) Why wouldn't the whm be hasting the group?
B) that'd be the same thing as if I were saying "If the smn decides to hastega the group"

You're trying to compare a bad whm to what you think a good smn is.

If you're comparing, compare a good smn to a good whm and a bad smn to a bad whm

So if the whm isn't hasting, comparison wise, why is the smn hasting?

And yes, the smn brings more than haste to the group, but what is it bringing that outweighs putting another job in its place?

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:47 AM

Greatguardian

06-21-2011, 06:47 AM

Assuming that whoever hast he haste spell is consistently casting it on everyone before their haste timers are up so that no one is ever without it for a second, which is really extremely unlikely. More likely than not, the haster is skipping one or two people that don't "need" it, whereas SMN doesn't have that problem. Everybody gets it easily with minimal effort and no one gets left out.

Wait, what? Since when is that extremely unlikely? Every WHM does that. Even those without Windower/Yarnball access can base their Haste cycles off the Vanadiel clock. 1 hour = 2 minutes 30 seconds. Cast at :00 or something you'll remember, and recast every :00 afterwards.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:47 AM

So if the whm isn't hasting, comparison wise, why is the smn hasting?Because too many WHMs suck at their jobs?

Wait, what? Since when is that extremely unlikely? Every WHM does that.You'd be suprised at how untrue that is. (It's difficult to have high standards when those high standards eliminate too many people to play with)

Yes, it's a sign of a bad WHM, but seriously. hastega eliminates any possibility of someone not getting haste, and requires less maintenance due to longer duration and everyone's effect timer starting and ending at the same time. Honestly, if you want to ignore everything this thread was originally about and invite a summoner to cure and buff, Why not do that if cure V/VI are not really needed? The SMN has more buffs than the WHM. The only thing that's really inferior is curing power.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:50 AM

Because too many WHMs suck at their jobs?
And so do a lot of smns, what's your point?

Again, you're trying to compare a bad whm to a good smn.

Compare good vs good or bad vs bad.

I can say my pup can out DD a ukon war, which it can, if the war is absolutely horrible and sucks at their job. Does that make pup an awesome DD? Sure doesn't.

So let me get this straight, you're basing your utility off of other pt members sucking? lol
"The suckier my whm is the more my job has to offer to you!"

Korpg

06-21-2011, 06:51 AM

I never claimed my first post was about the current topic in the past few pages. I said I've made posts which contribute to that conversation. Learn to read. My first post was to correct a mistake a saw and provide additional information based on what I quoted. Am I going to read 600+ posts to see if someone already addressed you? No sir. If you expected me to, tough luck. I saw some of the jobs I posted mentioned in the few posts I did read, but not all of the jobs I mentioned.

So, basically you jump into any/everything and not bother to read further, right? And I thought you were smart.

Guess that is assumption number 3. Thinking you were smart enough to know that something on page 2 out of 60+ is worthy of bringing back to "correct" was not talked about since the mistake was made on page 2.

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:52 AM

Again, you're trying to compare a bad whm to a good smn.No, i'm comparing typical to typical.

It's a lot harder for a summoner to suck at hasting a party than it is for a WHM to suck at hasting a party.

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:54 AM

So, basically you jump into any/everything and not bother to read further, right? And I thought you were smart.

Guess that is assumption number 3. Thinking you were smart enough to know that something on page 2 out of 60+ is worthy of bringing back to "correct" was not talked about since the mistake was made on page 2.
I didn't assume it wasn't talked about. I said I didn't care to read 600 posts. Whether or not it was talked about, I didn't really care.
It being said by someone else doesn't make it any less correct when I say it.

And I'm still waiting for you to point out where I told smns how to play their jobs, or did you just say that for w/e reason you deemed fit, without any merit of any sort?

Cream_Soda

06-21-2011, 06:55 AM

No, i'm comparing typical to typical.

It's a lot harder for a summoner to suck at hasting a party than it is for a WHM to suck at hasting a party.
If we're talking typical vs typical, the typical smn is absolutely horrible. I've pt'd w/ good smns, and I would again. A typical smn, I wouldn't let anywhere near anything I was doing.

Razushu

06-21-2011, 06:55 AM

A) Why wouldn't the whm be hasting the group?
B) that'd be the same thing as if I were saying "If the smn decides to hastega the group"

You're trying to compare a bad whm to what you think a good smn is.

If you're comparing, compare a good smn to a good whm and a bad smn to a bad whm

So if the whm isn't hasting, comparison wise, why is the smn hasting?

And yes, the smn brings more than haste to the group, but what is it bringing that outweighs putting another job in its place?

short answer because I've said this alot today a mix of DD/buffs/Support.

Sometimes WHMs don't or can't haste I've seen it, unfortunately outside abyssea my WHMs gear isn't great I work my butt off when I'm on it, and I'm always trying to get better gear for it but if I find myself in a group needing lots of cures haste tends to slip as I don't have the MP to keep it on everyone full time(unless I have a RDM or BRD which isn't always the case)

The WHM shouldn't be hasting the party because there's a SMN there buffing the party any way

Alhanelem

06-21-2011, 06:58 AM

If we're talking typical vs typical, the typical smn is absolutely horrible.And so is the typical white mage, as I illustrated. I'm being very generous if I say less than half of all white mages i've ever partied with consistently kept everyone hasted. Realistically, less than a third.

Summoner doesn't have cure V and VI, or (re)raise II and III. that's really the only disadvantage to summoner over WHM. Summoner has access to more buffs and all of the buffs gained are AoE and can be used on everyone.

Even if you don't want to accept that a relic/empyrean staff does anything whatsoever for summoner, you should be able to accept that they are completely competent at support.