Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Greatguardian]

There's nothing wrong with Random Question Threads. If you're going to warn and ban people over these, then you're a**holes. Go to any other forum, including this one. You'll see random questions all over the place. But do you see anyone hating them for it, or calling for them to be banned? No.

The last time I was there, there was no such area. The BG community is extremely hostile to anyone that isn't as elite as they are. And before you ask, no, I haven't been banned from BG. But if you're going to ban people, just ban them. The whole thing where they change the banned user's avatar to some psychadelic anime dude shaking baby rattles is completely unnecessary, no matter how much they deserved being banned.

If you didn't skip over the discussion you'd have your answer. You either melee or you don't. If you're a caster mage and you're meleeing, you're still going to be casting your spells, so there's the "supplemental" damage you're talking about. If you're a SMN, you're not casting any spells the vast majority of the time, thus you have the free time to up your "supplemental" damage even more. But for most casters, what with frequent spell casts and typical usage of elemental staves which can't be switched without losing TP and have low DMG ratings anyway, meleeing has no useful function. Summoner with an empy/mythic/relic staff gets away with this because they are using a weapon built for attacking, and do not spend nearly as much time casting spells and such, and their WS (relic or empy) gives them back MP.

How long ago did you even surf BG? Sounds like 2006-2008 era bullcrap, which even BG hated. There's a reason BG purged a hell of a lot of posters, and a lot of other resident assholes stopped posting altogether. Most of the remaining regular posters are nice, well spoken, and have no real qualms answering questions.

The Random Question Thread has existed for years now, too, so that would support the notion that you really haven't surfed it anywhere near recently. The only BG posters I can think of off the top of my head still posting on this site are myself, Karbuncle, Raenryong, Byrthnoth, HFXnumbers, and Tamoa. I dare say I'm easily the most hostile of all of them, and even then only if someone really pushes the wrong buttons. I have no qualms teaching anyone with a willingness to learn, and I dare say the majority of BG doesn't either. We are simply jaded from dealing with people who don't want to learn for years and years.

Most of the people who come on here and rant about the evils of BG tend to be people who registered, made a new thread in the FFXI: Advanced section without reading any of the stickies, asked a question that 10 seconds on wiki or google could answer (without showing that they even tried to look first, eg: What is Penta Thrust's WSC mod gaiz?), and then started screaming at people when they called them out for asking stupid questions, followed by a swift ban.

Conduct yourself responsibly and BG is easily the single best source of FFXI-related information on the internet.

[Raksha]

The last time I was there, there was no such area.


The 2nd generation of the Random question thread (the first one appears to have been swallowed) was created 07-06-2009

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/77819-Randomest-Question-Thread

No one ever gets banned for asking a question in the RQT. I'm all for martyr complexes, but BG hate is just silly.

[Azagthoth]

You say it's okay to have a random question thread, but then you can't warn people to post questions in the proper place? That doesn't make any sense. Why would you even have a random question thread if you're not going to make people use it? It keeps the forum clean and it keeps relevant, current threads, on the first page. If you don't follow forum rules you'll get warned/banned here too.

There will always be people that will put on the asshole facade regardless of what you post. Either get used to it or quit the interent.

[Greatguardian]

The 2nd generation of the Random question thread (the first one appears to have been swallowed) was created 07-06-2009

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/77819-Randomest-Question-Thread

No one ever gets banned for asking a question in the RQT. I'm all for martyr complexes, but BG hate is just silly.

Yeah. The original RQT existed in FFXI: Standard, circa 2007-2008 I think? When Standard was merged into Advanced, it was remade there.

Trolling is also strictly prohibited in the RQT. People straight up aren't allowed to give you crap for asking questions in the question thread. The only time that really happens are when the question-askers start a fight first, which is rare but does happen. Generally you don't want to come in asking for help while simultaneously insulting the people you expect to help you.

[Dallas]

I'm all for martyr complexes, but BG hate is just silly.

You will appreciate this stupid picture:

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Melee_Summoner

No forum is responsible for churning out more incompetent SMN than BG.

[Greatguardian]

That picture is hilarious and you should feel bad for trying to make fun of it.

But you should feel good for bringing it to our attention because, as I said, it is hilarious.

[Korpg]

Except that you get 0 MP from that WS so you'd have to make all those same concessions in gear, subjobs, and atma that the "do nothing" crowd does. You won't be meleeing well, and your pet will be using magic pacts. Magic atma will suck for DOT, phys atma will suck for BP. Outside Abyssea, the gimp factor is much less noticable.

OMG you are so narrow minded.

Look noob (and yes, you fit in the profile of a noob now for lack of learning ability) you don't need the accuracy gear needed to keep avatars out while swinging a staff and getting TP back. You don't need MP back from a WS to keep the avatar out, because you would be rocking at 6 mp per tick refresh even outside of abyssea.

You wouldn't need Minkin in there either, because there would be enough refresh on hand to not only keep the avatar out, but continue to BP with that avatar.

You wouldn't be limited to a 0 damage WS for aftermaths either, because that is not how the mythic works, and you don't need the mp because you are still sitting with a 6 mp per tick refresh all the time even outside of Abyssea. And guess what? MAB+30 on the staff for the avatars? Guess you don't need any mage atmas either now to do outstanding damage with merited blood pacts. Oh, and lets not forget, you also get Spirit Taker for the few times you might need mp back, but you can do it at any % above 100 instead of waiting for 300% so you can have an occasionally does double damage aftermath from emp weapons. But yeah, lets see here, inside Abyssea you can put out 2k Retributions or 0 damage Myrkrs. I wonder which one would do better damage over time?

But you know what, you just stated something I don't think you meant to state. You just admitted that Physical Atmas suck for BPs. So, you have physical atmas just to boost your damage up then? Screw the avatar, its all about the summoner doing damage now?

[Alhanelem]

You just admitted that Physical Atmas suck for BPs.I'm all for making Dallas look bad, but this is nonsense. DD atmas work wonders for predator claws.


Abyssea you can put out 2k Retributions or 0 damage Myrkrs. I wonder which one would do better damage over time?You will easily pull out that much damage in double damage hits with the aftermath. Maybe not QUITE that much, but it will add a sginificant amount of damage, enough to make worth using a WS that gives you some indirect damage and 1k+ MP back vs one that does a little more damage and gives you nothing.

and 2k on retribution is being pretty generous. Usually you will do far less than that.

Dude. Just add Dallas to your ignore list. That will make this thread much less stressful for you.


Sounds like 2006-2008 era bullcrap,I don't visit it unless linked to a thread there anymore; it's possible that conditions there have improved, but I haven't seen evidence of that. For me, it started when commenting in a thread that I was going for Claustrum in a relic weapon thread. That went downhill extremely fast as I was torn limb form limb at even the thought of trying to get a relic staff. Eventually they labeled the forum rank for newer posters "Melee SMN" because of this. Later, BG forumers would find photographs of a cosplay costume of mine and photoshopped it to ridicule me further. Ever since, I have come to view BG as essentially the bowels of the internet where elitism and immaturity and bandwagoning know no bounds.

At least you've acknowledged there was a time when BG was a pretty sh***y place to be for a non-elitist.

[TybudX]

So that picture Dallas posted is you? Was that taken at ComiCon or something? I don't know how these things work.

[Neisan_Quetz]

lolclaustrum.

[Greatguardian]

If a forum title was named after you, then yes, you are talking about half-decade-old BG which was a total craphole compared to modern BG. Pchan was still allowed to post. Just think about that for a moment.

After Old-Advanced was purged, a lot of the crap got cut pretty quick. FFXI: Media is still a center for lulz, but even that's become a lot more tame recently. After Abyssea was released and the intense pseudo-competition over HNMs became yesterday's news, BG became significantly more well adjusted.

[Sparthos]

I don't get why people act like BG is some bastion for jerks in today's XI. Go on Alla and ask a dumb question and people will call you a moron etc etc. The ONLY difference is that the Alla mods are far more relaxed and the site has a naughty word filter. Go to FFXIAH forums? Same deal, jerks mixed in with people willing to answer questions if asked in the proper way.

The old BG may have been hostile as alot of people had some personality issues but overall people have always been helpful outside the grossly inflated egos which isn't really different from the drooling idiots you find on other boards.

You can throw the baby out with the bathwater if you please but on the internet growing thick skin and realizing everyone isn't alike on a forum can go a long way. Most people aren't going to take assertions like melee SMN without evidence. If you provided parse data, examples of consistent success and anything beyond "yeah, well it works for me" then you'd find many people would either try to replicate your success or simply accept it works in certain situations.

(Most people already know melee SMN can work situationally but do not accept that it's useful on anything remotely difficult or somehow makes Claustrum/Hverglmr something worth chasing beyond a personal reward however)

Byrth has posted in this thread and hes made numerous contributions on BG yet he never approaches the level of jerk that people like Thorny or Failure have been in the past.

Really for good data all you have left is BG, Allas JSE forums and FFXIAH. The JP also have some good souces if you can read the moonrunes. Official forums are just a place to whine hard till a community rep puts a crown on the thread.

[Leonlionheart]

Kinda skipped over most of the discussion on whether a mage can melee as well as a melee, but what are people's thoughts on meleeing as supplemental damage in between nukes or whatever, might be a good way to conserve mp if done right, or could be usefull to open for skillchains and later magic burst off of them.

Don't do it. On exp level mobs maybe, because they are easy as beans. But on NMs you're just feeding unnecessary TP making it harder to proc and harder to survive the fight. If people tell you otherwise, don't listen.

[Leonlionheart]

You will appreciate this stupid picture:

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Melee_Summoner

No forum is responsible for churning out more incompetent SMN than BG.

Looks right to me. lolmeleesmnlolsmn

[Alhanelem]

On any other wiki that would be vandalism.

[Greatguardian]

Because BG forums and BG wiki are even remotely close to the same thing.

[Alhanelem]

If a forum title was named after you, then yes, you are talking about half-decade-old BG which was a total craphole compared to modern BG. Pchan was still allowed to post. Just think about that for a moment.

After Old-Advanced was purged, a lot of the crap got cut pretty quick. FFXI: Media is still a center for lulz, but even that's become a lot more tame recently. After Abyssea was released and the intense pseudo-competition over HNMs became yesterday's news, BG became significantly more well adjusted.

I'll accept that things have probably changed over time. That doesn't rid me of my animosity towards them- But I suppose I can give some benefit of the doubt.


So that picture Dallas posted is you? Was that taken at ComiCon or something? I don't know how these things work.Not as far as I know. Much as I dislike Dallas, he's the last person that I would peg as the one who would have done that.

[Sparthos]

If it makes you feel better, most BGers accept that BGwiki was a failed idea to get back at "other wiki" for selling out to the man.

I know alot of people put in good work on it but it just never really took off after the initial rage about what happened over at ffxiclopedia.

[Raksha]

If it makes you feel better, most BGers accept that BGwiki was a failed idea to get back at "other wiki" for selling out to the man.

I know alot of people put in good work on it but it just never really took off after the initial rage about what happened over at ffxiclopedia.

Byrth is actually busting his balls to make it better, should give another try.

[Sparthos]

Byrth is actually busting his balls to make it better, should give another try.

I know and I respect his attempt to make it better. I appreciated the Dynamis2 info compiled there as it was quite useful.

I once attempted myself to flesh out the Bestiary but yeah.... never finished.

[Byrth]

That picture is by far the best thing to come out of this thread. <--- sorry, I didn't read most of the posts between the picture and here. I just thought it was a funny image someone had stitched together. ; ;

AM3 for Mythics is just OAT, it's not all three.

Also, directions to post in the random question thread are in caps in the FFXI advanced forum description. BG's philosophy, as I understand it (not a mod), is that we should make threads for ongoing conversations within the community. Testing that's being done, events we're interested in, etc. Making threads like this one (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/105032-Expansion-problem) get you in trouble. Probably not banned, if you didn't do it maliciously, but it'll at least get it unsympathetically locked. Making threads like this one (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104909-Migawari-and-Igi-Ningi-2) get people trying to sex you out of happiness, even if your original conclusion ends up being wrong.

As far as wikis go, as the game dies out, SE adds less and less content but fewer and fewer people add it to the wikis. BGwiki has a huge advantage over other wikis in that Septimus, myself, Yugl, Blackrose and several other members of the BG community have been updating random things since the last patch. We've basically added all the information from the last patch to the wiki, and now I'm going through and adding old testing stuff that never made it to ffxiclopedia (or that they got wrong) and testing more things.

To be frank, the last patch kind of sucked for me. It has almost no content that I am obliged to take part in. The challenging and interesting content that they added (Voidwatch) is also unrewarding unless you go with a much larger crew than I. However, I use FFXI as $12.95/mo AIM so I'm on anyway and just do testing and lazily work on long-term goals/help friends.




Anyway, the basic problem with the whole melee-summoner thing is this, which I'm sure you've been told many many times, by me and others:
* There are three strategic uses for summoner:
1) You need Earthen Armor to mitigate heavy (often AoE) damage.
2) You need Perfect Defense for a zerg.
3) You need a low-hate/low-TP damage source often due to some hate-reset mechanism of the monster. In these situations, you sacrifice kill speed for safety and stability.

The reason that your job is only desirable in those three situations basically boils down to the 45 second recast on your BPs and lack of Haste buffs / competitive DPS for pets. It makes you uncompetitive as a melee damage source, which means you're only desirable in situations where meleeing is impractical. Think of it this way, with your Myrkr argument:
1) If you're using Myrkr (Empyrean WS), you're not using a weaponskill that does damage, but you can maintain avatar + BP full-time.
2) If your Avatar BPs for approximately the same amount that players weaponskill for, we can treat those BPs as the replacement for your empyrean weaponskill. I'm being kind when I say your Avatar BPs for as much as an Empyrean WS.
3) Even assuming that your staff wasn't the lowest DPS Empyrean and you weren't one of the least qualified melee jobs in the game, you're still only effectively WSing once every 45 seconds. Other Empyrean DDs self-skillchain by accident (Skillchain window is ~5 seconds).
4) Now you're left with three components:
* Melee damage from the summoner (less than any other DD)
* Melee damage from the Avatar (does not receive Haste buffs), and does not even compare to your own staff damage.
* BP damage (Less than weaponskill damage from any melee)

So you do less damage than any other melee DD that people would consider bringing. Now, why would anyone bring you along to melee DD? Because you can give them an evasion boost? Get real. A lolmeleeBRD can do competitive damage with you and can do a heck of a lot better than mambo. Also, as nice as a minor evasion boost may be, it's not anything people build a strategy around.

Can you go along on your Empyrean Summoner instead of a non-Empyrean DD in Dynamis have more fun? I'm entirely certain that you can. Will you kill more things and get more currency? Maybe, if you pay more attention because you really enjoy playing Summoner. Similarly, if you play both Warrior and Summoner, do I believe there may be times when you outparse your own WAR on Summoner? Sure! If you like the job more, you play it better. You don't AFK as much. You engage faster. Who comes what job and when is a decision you or your linkshell leader have to make due to an understanding of the personalities involved and game mechanics. I, personally, go Dancer a heck of a lot more than I should for this very reason.

However, it's worth nothing that game mechanics really do not favor melee summoners.

Edit: Also, I chose to support BG wiki basically because I noticed Septimus was still updating it long after I thought the community had abandoned it. Also, with the Gamer Escape/FFXIclopedia split, we lost all the talk pages and the updating community is split between the two websites. FFXIclopedia gets all the random updates with unsigned testimonies about BCNMs and stuff, and Gamer Escape gets people pulling information from my posts on BG. I like BGwiki, because there aren't 10,000 banners I have to adblock and there's a small enough updating base that people don't add incorrect information on a whim. I can't even begin to count how many hours of testing the unsigned Saber Dance mechanism someone threw onto ffxiclopedia set me back.

Edit2: lol1:30 sleepytarus go to bed

[Korpg]

I'll accept that things have probably changed over time. That doesn't rid me of my animosity towards them- But I suppose I can give some benefit of the doubt.


I don't know, I wouldn't be so quick to accept that BG has changed. I was banned from that forum just because I argued with one of their locals on a different forum. When that local idiot decided to make a thread on BG about me. I got banned from that website because a local idiot from BG made a thread about me, where is the justice in that?

I don't care what anyone says about BG, they are a bunch of a**hats regardless of being "changed" or not.

[Alhanelem]

* There are three strategic uses for summoner:
1) You need Earthen Armor to mitigate heavy (often AoE) damage.
2) You need Perfect Defense for a zerg.
3) You need a low-hate/low-TP damage source often due to some hate-reset mechanism of the monster. In these situations, you sacrifice kill speed for safety and stability.There are a lot more uses for summoner than that. That's an EXTREMELY narrow minded perspective. You could say "There are three uses for summoner in the BG elitist community" or "There are three things summoner can do that no one else can do or do well," the latter of which I would accept only grudgingly because that's a matter of opinion.


If your Avatar BPs for approximately the same amount that players weaponskill for Avatar blood pacts do far more damage than any of your weapon skills could hope to do (on SMN), and do more damage than typical weapon skills from several other weapons. A predator claws does not do less damage than weaponskills, unless you perhaps whiff 2/3 hits and get no critical.

[Alhanelem]

Gamer Escape gets people pulling information from my posts on BG.No one I know is doing this. It's fluke/coincidence if that's happening. I personally have put up some information from FFXIAH discussions, that may or may not have originally come from elsewhere, again by fluke/coincidence.

If we had a choice, FFXIclopedia would be gone and GamerEscape would be fully in its place, but Wikia doesn't let you just pack up and move, unfortunately. BG wiki makes this problem a little bit worse because now there's THREE wikis when there used to only really be one. Until about a month or so ago, I thought BGwiki was dead and gone, because I didn't even see links to it on the BG forums.


I like BGwiki, because there aren't 10,000 banners I have to adblockWe don't have "10,000 banners" to block. And normally, if you are so opposed to ads (which support the sites that run them, so by blocking ads you're effectively denying them funds needed to pay bandwidth costs), you could just turn Ad Block Plus on with an appropriate filter subscription and you shouldn't have to manually block anything.

... man... got really side tracked there. :p

[Raksha]

There are a lot more uses for summoner than that.


notice he said strategic uses.



That's an EXTREMELY narrow minded perspective. You could say "There are three uses for summoner in the BG elitist community" or "There are three things summoner can do that no one else can do or do well," the latter of which I would accept only grudgingly because that's a matter of opinion.


Or we could say that there are only three thing that SMN can do well, which will optimally allow you to kill something you weren't able to kill before (or at least with much less hassle)




Avatar blood pacts do far more damage than any of your weapon skills could hope to do, and do more damage than typical weapon skills from several other weapons. A predator claws does not do less damage than weaponskills, unless you perhaps whiff 2/3 hits and get no critical.

And you have parses to back this up?

I know you're allergic to BG, and I know that lucky high hitting WSes shouldn't be used to determine DoT, but read the last 10 or so pages of this thread:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans

And then show me your best predator claws.

[Greatguardian]

Unless you're rocking consistent 10k Pclaws, you're not blowing any good Empyreans out of the water. Smite and Ukko's can easily average around 5k with RCB and not-suck gear. Hi can probably average closer to 3.5, maybe 4. Wildfire is just bumcrap ridiculous, too.

Pclaws hits, what? 4k average? Maybe 5 on trash mobs? Does it even scale up well on NMs? Serious question, do not know. I still hit 4.5-5 average on Scars NMs, and some lower tier heroes NMs. TA procs can max me around 9k damage on a VSmite on NMs.

[Byrth]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that I covered all of the strategic uses of Summoners, unless you want to add:
4) Can kill most monsters in a group of all summoners slower than an equal number jobs with a more traditional setup.
5) Good for holding monsters if you're in a pickup group, wipe, and have a good summoner.

Still, none of my situations are involving meleeing somehow.


No one I know is doing this. It's fluke/coincidence if that's happening. I personally have put up some information from FFXIAH discussions, that may or may not have originally come from elsewhere, again by fluke/coincidence.

If we had a choice, FFXIclopedia would be gone and GamerEscape would be fully in its place, but Wikia doesn't let you just pack up and move, unfortunately. BG wiki makes this problem a little bit worse because now there's THREE wikis when there used to only really be one. Until about a month or so ago, I thought BGwiki was dead and gone, because I didn't even see links to it on the BG forums.

We don't have "10,000 banners" to block. And normally, if you are so opposed to ads (which support the sites that run them, so by blocking ads you're effectively denying them funds needed to pay bandwidth costs), you could just turn Ad Block Plus on with an appropriate filter subscription and you shouldn't have to manually block anything.

... man... got really side tracked there. :p

I didn't realize you were from ffxiclopedia/gamer escape, but I block your background, banners, and avatar pictures, along with a lot of the other pictures. All pictures that don't give information, I block. You don't have to just use Adblock to block ads, though I block all of those too. If it makes you feel better, I block the BG logo and absolutely every single one of the incredibly numerous ads on bgwiki that they use to pay for server costs. Just as a side-note, you guys really should have done away with the fixed width website and installed some scaling CSS when you made the hop. Resolution doesn't have to be your enemy, and there's a whole lot more screen width out there.

Also, I confused the two wikis. None of my testing has shown up Gamer Escape that I can see. The testing I did on Tranquil heart yesterday got pulled onto the wiki hours later pretty much verbatim from my post without a citation, as did many (but not all) of the other values determined in the same thread. It looks like the guy only took the ones that he cared about. I don't hold it against you or any of the people who deal with ffxiclopedia personally, because I know you're not responsible for the edits people make and there are too many people to police (basically the YouTube defense to accompany the YouTube motivation) and it essentially doesn't matter because I don't really test things for the sake of public recognition.

Still, providing the information without a citation based off a single spell cast I did is probably not responsible. I could well revise that information, add trait tiers, question how the bonus is actually applied, etc. and no one who reads the page would have any easy way to check because there isn't a citation. Consider ffxiclopedia finger-wagged at.

There's plenty of testing I've added to BGwiki without even posting on the BG forums, which likely means it'll be as under-appreciated as some of the pages I've found (like the awesome Wild Flourish page, which sure taught me something about Dancer). That's fine with me. If I'm unsure of my conclusions, am verifying a new testing method, whatever, I post it on the forums so it can be peer reviewed by the other "mathologists." If I'm using something that's well established, I just add it to the wiki. Rather than trying to put every crafting recipe in the game on the wiki, my focus is basically to get the game mechanics sections ship-shape (and Dancer, because lol<3) and keep us at the top of the barrel on new content.

[Alhanelem]

notice he said strategic uses."strategic" uses in his opinion. There are many "strategic" uses for summoner. That list is oversimplified and ignorant.

I didn't realize you were from ffxiclopedia/gamer escape, but I block your background, banners, and avatar pictures, along with a lot of the other pictures.Why? Are you on a 7200 baud modem and can't handle images? Even if not, you are an incredible anomaly here. You may as well just turn off the display of images in your browser.


Just as a side-note, you guys really should have done away with the fixed width website and installed some scaling CSS when you made the hop.A liquid width skin is available as an option. That said, fixed width is a standard adopted by every major website out there, and the current fixed width is based on typical screen resolutions of the majority. Very few people maximize a browser window at 1080p, where a whole paragraph practically fits on one line. Personally, I'd need a magnifying glass to read that. Now, I'm all about options and choices, personally. Thats why we have a variety of wiki skins available, wheras Wikia forces you to use their skin.


Consider ffxiclopedia finger-wagged at.Finger-wag at FFXIclopedia all you want, we aren't responsible for the site anymore. The premeire site status is actually supposed to be transferring to the new site, but there's red tape to cut through before that happens.

[Byrth]

"strategic" uses in his opinion. There are many "strategic" uses for summoner. That list is oversimplified and ignorant.

I challenge you to name a single one where Summoner is the best choice that doesn't fall into the categories I named. As a 90 Summoner with 5/5 AF3+2 and capped skill, I'd love an excuse to actually use the job.


Why? Are you on a 7200 baud modem and can't handle images? Even if not, you are an incredible anomaly here. You may as well just turn off the display of images in your browser.

If you look at something at work, at school, on the bus, I'd rather not have a big cartoon image of galkas and tarus being super best friends in my background. Personal choice, I know.

[Alhanelem]

I challenge you to name a single one where Summoner is the best choice that doesn't fall into the categories I named.I don't care about best case. Many jobs overlap eachother in usefulness. I only care about viability.


As a 90 Summoner with 5/5 AF3+2 and capped skill, I'd love an excuse to actually use the job.Personally, I use it all the time for all kinds of activities, both solo and group. If you want a very specific strategic use for abyssea, then here you go: SMN is one of the most effective

You can't just assume that everyone in any given group will have every ideal job for everything covered. SMN doesn't need to be the #1 best choice for 20 different strategies in order to get used. It simply has to be acceptably effective and viable. And there is very little that SMN isn't viable to be used at. There's a huge difference between strategically useable and "#1 absolute best." It doesn't have to be the best. It just has to be good. But being someone from BG, maybe you don't realize that.


If you look at something at work, at school, on the bus, I'd rather not have a big cartoon image of galkas and tarus being super best friends in my background. Personal choice, I know. Then turn images off when you're in a place where you don't want people to see you're not doing work when you should be. Would be a lot simpler than adding 2384765 entries to your ad blocker.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You haven't given a single example where summoner is viable outside the three situations listed.

[Byrth]

Then turn images off when you're in a place where you don't want people to see you're not doing work when you should be. Would be a lot simpler than adding 2384765 entries to your ad blocker.

I'm a graduate student, and I was in a holding pattern waiting for committee approval for a project for several months. I spent all the time reading papers, and now that I have my approval I just kind of read the stuff relevant to my subject that comes out.

Between doing things with my experiment, I do some non-work stuff. I work enough hours/days that people don't really hold it against me, and I've been getting results which gives me quite a bit of leeway. Some days are slow, and then sometimes I have three weeks of 12 hour days in a row.

[Greatguardian]

Edit: Crap, timeline no longer makes sense. This is directed at the Galka.

You're talking in circles again.

Is SMN an ideal choice? No. I'm glad we agree.

Are there situations where SMN is the most useful choice? Sure, Byrth listed them all already.

If you have WAR, and a DD is needed, and you choose to come SMN anyways, does that make SMN more viable? No. It just means you chose a less viable job because it's fun, something Byrth has already addressed.

Bottom Line: Can Summoner do things at a third-string level if the player is not total suck? Sure. Does SMN excel at any of these things? No way. Can SMN keep up with a specialized job in that job's role? No way. Are people going to want an awesome SMN instead of a total crap DRK? Definitely. Are people going to want an awesome player to come SMN instead of WAR? No way. There lies the conundrum. If a player is actually good and using SMN, then they have the potential to be even better using MNK, or WAR, or NIN, or whatnot.

Spare me the "It's my $12.95 and Smn is more fun and it's a game and elitist" comebacks because it's already been stated a dozen times that Smn can perform around par if played well and the player just likes the job more than anything else, and that's fine. It just doesn't mean that the player couldn't be performing even better on a more specialized job.

[Alhanelem]

You haven't given a single example where summoner is viable outside the three situations listed.
Summoner is viable for almost anything. Party support. Curing. Damage in any event. Kiting Soloing or lowmanning almost anything. It is purely the fault of the proc system why summoner is unwanted in Abyssea. You don't need it to proc, therefore it is not useful. In Abyssea, what you can proc is the beginning and end of any job's usefulness, with a few exceptions (e.g. WHM)


Bottom Line: Can Summoner do things at a third-string level if the player is not total suck? Sure. SMN is not "third string" at anything, for any reason other than playerbase attitude. I will 100% agree that the player needs to know what he's doing, be well geared, and skilled in general for summoner to be effective. But this is becuase I consider the job one that requires this to be succesful at anything. It may not be number one, but it will work in a pinch. Not every group is going to have godly WARs and NINs to low man every NM in the game.

Most of the wanted uses for summoner which you listed do not require any thought or skill, just a couple button presses then you go AFK.

There are 20 jobs in the game. There are overlaps in roles. What you want to play should be what you play, and you should be accepted for any situationw here it is workable. It is elitism and only elitism that demands nothing but the most perfect setup for anything.

[Greatguardian]

Defining viable seems to be the problem.

Can Summoner do those things? Yes, by definition it can do them.

Can it do them well? This is subjective.

Can it do them as well as other jobs? Multipart answer:

Can SMN heal as well as a White mage, Red mage, or Scholar? No.

Can SMN support as well as a Corsair or Bard? No.

Can SMN deal damage as well as a Mnk, Nin, War, Pup, Sam, Drk, Drg, Thf, Rng, Dnc? No.

Therein lies the difference.

No one has ever questioned SMN's solo ability, however. That is definitely where they, and other hybrid jobs, shine. Put them in a group, however, and they will find it difficult to perform up to par in any particular group role (assuming Par is the level of performance of another job fit for said role).

Edit: Good god, stop comparing an Epic-tier SMN to a full Aurore crap-tier NIN. I swear to god it makes me want to pull my hair out. If you have an Epic-tier SMN, the only fair comparison is to an Epic-tier X, Y, and Z job. Period. If you are talking Hver/Nirvana SMN, then you compare it to Verethragna MNK, Ukonvasara WAR, Ryunohige DRG, etc etc etc. It is the most aggravating logical fallacy in the world to talk about how a SMN can be balls to the wall awesome and then say that "People can't always have good NINs and WARs to use instead". That doesn't say anything about the Summoner job. That says something about Al compared to Gimp #2343765.

[Alhanelem]

The whole strength of the job is its versatility. Other jobs have changed in popularity for similar reasons. PUP has become a very strong job over the last few updates for instance. But no one cares, because they aren't needed to proc NMs in abyssea and DDs are a dime a dozen, no matter how good they are. DRK isn't popular because it doesn't do as many weapons and its primary weapon has no good critical WS. There's nothing particularly dysfuncional about these jobs, they are just unwanted because of the current metagame.

In case you can't tell, I loathe the proc system because everyone wants more shinies, and thus they will use whatever method gets them the most. That means procing, and you only really need two jobs to do that, WAR and NIN (MNK can sitll cover almost everything, so it still gets used because it has amazing survivability in abyssea). SE revamps dynamis, adds procing. Fortunately, any job can proc in dynamis, so its not so bad there. SE adds voidwatch. Again, procs are added. I do not understand the voidwatch procs as well as Dynamis and Abyssea, though, so I don't know if this is a problem there or not.

But basically, the proc system in abyssea strongly discourages any strategy that doesn't involve having the couple key jobs needed to proc, no matter how good the other jobs are. Creativity is discouraged. Playing any job other than the best jobs for proc, or WHM, is discouraged. Damage you can deal is irrelevant. Party support capabiality is almost irrelevant. The only thing that matters is proc and dead it.


Edit: Good god, stop comparing an Epic-tier SMN to a full Aurore crap-tier NIN.I'm not the one making direct job-to-job gear-to-gear comparisons. I never said that "Oh, with allt he best gear and skills is better than a BLM meleeing with a scythe naked" or anything like that; so I hope this stab isn't directed at me.

[Greatguardian]

WAR, NIN, and MNK are ... pretty much the strongest DDs in Abyssea, so good luck claiming you have a better DD that isn't being used because of the proc system. I mean, I understand your point, but it's not like SMN is some super-huge powerhouse that's being left out on the wayside because of the proc system. Every single job I mentioned above will handily out-damage a Summoner. Bard will do so as well, assuming they actually have gear for melee and Evisceration unlocked. White Mage will out-damage and out-last a Summoner melee'ing. Corsair will outdamage Summoner. RNG is probably the only job that SMN could reasonably keep up with, and only because they get screwed pretty hard with /ra delay and lack of Haste.

Versatility: Being able to perform multiple roles at once, all at a subpar / weaker level than other jobs. I can't deny that. Hey it's worked for RDM for years. They just don't get into a pissing contest any time someone asks them to utilize or focus on their non-DD roles.

Edit: You're talking about how SMN can "perform well", and saying in the same breath that "Not everyone has WARs or NINs that are actually good". Well here's the thing, performing "Well" is subjective. If you're performing worse than every other DD in the game would with the same resources, then you're not performing well. You're performing a lot worse than you could be. The difference is simply that you are associating "Winning the fight and not wiping, while doing damage safely" with performing well. You're saying (in previous posts) "Well I'm doing more damage than gimp Drks in Abyssea", as if that means anything about your performance at all.

Look, when you keep up with an intelligent Kannagi NIN, a Verethragna PUP, or a Twashtar DNC, we'll talk about performing well.

[Dallas]

Some responses for everyone:

BG note: If "old BG" is dead, why did a 5-year old drama thread get a spot in a sticky in new BG, and a special entry with a poorly crafted picture in BG wiki? "Old BG" is quite proud of the stain it has left behind, and that entity is fully represented in this thread.



Edit: Good god, stop comparing an Epic-tier SMN to a full Aurore crap-tier NIN. I swear to god it makes me want to pull my hair out. If you have an Epic-tier SMN, the only fair comparison is to an Epic-tier X, Y, and Z job. Period.

It's an interesting point. Sure, there's one guy who has to choose between 9 different emp weapons. The rest of us picked ONE job. Why should anyone ask an epic-tier anything to come as an aurore crap-tier anything? It doesn't happen in practice anyway. You only hear that stupid argument in a forum when someone picks an epic-tier mage job.

I will always be invited for my emp weapon SMN by every other emp weapon holder, if for no other reason than I helped them get their weapons.

BTW, I couldn't help but notice that Byrth (I think it was Byrth) forgot the #1 reason to have any hybrid job: versatility. He also forgot the #1 reason to have any pet job: crowd control. He also forgot the #1 reason to have a mage job: magic weaknesses. Byrth gave us 3 very specific uses for SMN. For a bonus point, name the only mob that can only be defeated if a specific job uses a specific ability, then name the job and ability.

[Greatguardian]

If you're only good at one job and the rest of your jobs are Aurore-tier crap, you're pretty much a crap player period. And no, it has nothing to do with being a mage. Epic-tier DDs get asked to come WHM plenty, when it's needed. Boohoo all you want about mage persecution, it's utter crap and you know it.

Btw, I couldn't help but notice that your versatility does nothing for you if you only utilize one role at a time. Healing? Yeah right. Support? Uh ... Stoneskin? Nice. Worth a support slot for sure. DD? Subpar compared to practically every other DD job in the game. Talk out your rump all you want, stack yourself up against any equally geared/skilled not-SMN and see how far behind you end up.

Versatility: Being able to claim the ability to perform in multiple roles, all of which are performed at a subpar level. Honestly, Summoner would get a lot more out of the "Versatility" argument if every SMN on the planet didn't have a stick up their rump in regards to casting Cure spells. Summoner is not the only versatile hybrid job in the game (Hi RDM), the Summoner community just made the mistake of refusing to perform half of their viable roles by being complete prudes about Healing. How well does the community receive Melee/DD-only RDMs? Yeah. Not so well.

And unless your SMN is rocking a worthwhile sleepga, your "Crowd Control" is limited to holding one mob at a time. That is not "Crowd Control", that is "One NM control". Congratulations on your brilliant NM holding prowess.

Summoner also can't intentionally trigger more than 1 magic weakness per element (T4 spells). Don't even try to pull that "Spirits can trigger Grellow herp" crap here. It's not worth anyone's time.

Oh yeah. And he already mentioned AV (and DM and other PD zergs). In fact, PD is one of SMN's biggest strengths. What a eye-opener you've given us, Dallas.

[TybudX]

Oh, I can't wait for this to be either a) Perfect Defense or b) some random shit quest/mission. Cause AV is a chump now, and three mage gate saiz hai /. JAs during storyline Does Not Count.

[Dallas]

Oh good, you guys DO know how stupid it is to say "X job is only useful for Y." Now, since you want to argue stupidly, replace X with any job except "SMN."

"WAR is only useful for Fell Cleaving?"
"WHM is only useful for Cure 6?"

The problem isn't that "SMN is only good for ___." The problem is you are not competent at job "SMN."

Greatguardian, post better. And learn about elemental weaknesses.

[TybudX]

WAR is better at DDing than SMN.
WHM is better at Healing than SMN.

SMN is better at doing Earthen Armor, Perfect Defense, and fights where meleeing isn't a goo choice.

This is fun, lets try it again.

[Dallas]

You probably play SMN as well as you follow directions.


Let's try it "BG fanboy" way:
A SMN heals better than a WAR
A SMN deals damage better than a WHM

OR:
A SMN and a WAR deals damage better than a WAR
A SMN and a WHM heal better than a WHM

Let's face it, only in this thread do there exist sockpuppets who think the matter is a choice between one job and another.

[TybudX]

lol sock puppet. Nice one, it hurts.

Here's some logic for you:

Name three situations, ever, where you shouldn't have come on either a DD or a healing job. Oh, yeah... PD, EA, and mobs you can't melee effectively...

ohshi*

Are you saying that you don't have any other job leveled for events aside from SMN? Cause that's the only reason you would bring it outside of those three situations.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You probably don't even deal damage better than a Whm (in abyssea where your argument for melee smn is even viable).
No shit you heal better than a job with no fucking native way to heal, seriously wtf type of argument is that. Just because you can do a bunch of roles at a subpar level, does not mean you are useful.

[Azagthoth]

Your 2nd option isn't a choice between one job or another, try again.

A WAR and a WAR (BRD, MNK, NIN, etc) deals damage better than a SMN and a WAR
A WHM and a WHM heal better than a SMN and a WHM

I don't know about you, but if my friends need help with something I'm going to bring out the most efficient job I have on both my main and my mule for the task. If I'm dual-boxing something when a friend is bored and offers me help then I usually ask them what job they want to come on. As long as they don't fed the mob TP, heal it, etc, then I don't see why not since I didn't need help with it to begin with.

[Korpg]

I will always be invited for my emp weapon SMN by every other emp weapon holder, if for no other reason than I helped them get their weapons.


Meaning you will force yourself into other's events as a gimp DD.

[Byrth]

I play Dancer and recognize its limitations. "Versatility" is a crutch leaned on by people that are mediocre in a lot of ways. FFXI's party and job systems aren't designed for "versatility." They're designed so you can go change jobs and do the event better. "Versatility" is what you rely on in single-job games.

[SNK]

If you're only good at one job and the rest of your jobs are Aurore-tier crap, you're pretty much a crap player period. And no, it has nothing to do with being a mage. Epic-tier DDs get asked to come WHM plenty, when it's needed. Boohoo all you want about mage persecution, it's utter crap and you know it.

This is 100% true in my case. I have a near perfectly decked out THF and BST but I'm asked to come to most things on my WHM because I'm good at it even tho my gear is nowhere near as good on WHM as it is my other main jobs.

[Alhanelem]

WAR is better at DDing than SMN.
WHM is better at Healing than SMN.

SMN is better at doing Earthen Armor, Perfect Defense, and fights where meleeing isn't a goo choice.

This is fun, lets try it again.
You're an idiot, because the point isn't to be the best. It's to be better than oneself could have been.

THE POINT IS NOT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE BEST.

THE POINT IS NOT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE BEST.

THE POINT IS NOT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE BEST.

Get it yet?

The point is to broaden and improve one's capability. Ideally more accepted as well, but despite having 20 jobs in the game it doesn't matter which one you are unless you're one of about four of them, so that's expecting a lot. Now I realize quite a few people, especially elitists, will not invite anyone that isn't the absolute number one best at something, but for other people, who realize this is a game we're playing, anyone that can do the job will suffice.


Are you saying that you don't have any other job leveled for events aside from SMN? Cause that's the only reason you would bring it outside of those three situations. Is this versitality going to gain you a party slot when other needed jobs are present? Probably not. Does it enable you to perform well if given the oppertunity? Yes, it does.

SMN is not the worst job, I'm sorry. It's rejected because it's not the BEST at anything, but it's not the worst. Perosnally, I have 5 jobs that I play, and none of them are the "top tier" jobs.


I play Dancer and recognize its limitations. "Versatility" is a crutch leaned on by people that are mediocre in a lot of ways.Versitality is not a crutch and doesn't mean you are "mediocre." I'm not sure what Dancer limitations you're referring to. Maybe it's damage capability, I don't know, but since DNC can do passibly in that area (though not my first choice of role), I don't know what you're referring to. I play DNC quite a bit, and actually get asked to use it for events quite often. DNC is another versatile job.


Epic-tier DDs get asked to come WHM plentyThis is only because even "epic tier" DDs are a dime a dozen while WHMs are always in short supply BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DON'T FIND IT FUN. That said, a lot of you people are forgetting this is a game we're playing. SMN, and some other not "epic tier" jobs mentioned in this discussion, along with every other job, can all be used in a winning strategy for any fight. Throughout SMN's existence I've proved time and time again that SMN can be a part of a winning team. "Oh you can't win that on SMN" *goes and wins fight* .... If you don't demand the absolute number one job and gear for every role every time, you'll realize that you can have fun and still get shiat done.


(in abyssea where your argument for melee smn is even viable).Please stop repeating this crap. It's just as, if not more viable outside of abyssea.


Summoner community just made the mistake of refusing to perform half of their viable roles by being complete prudes about Healing.Nobody likes healing, and every job heals better than SMN. SMN only got portrayed this way because at the time, WHM was the only sub job that offered anything whatsoever to SMN. No other job in the game gets asked to play only their subjob. At the time SMN was newer, people literally shunned you for using your avatars at all and expected you to do nothing but cure. Is curing viable for SMN? Of course it is, if there's no one else around to do it. Does that mean it's the only thing it can do? No. It wasn't a mistake to be "complete prudes" about healing. The reason people were like this is becuase the non-summoner community refused to recognize that SMN was capable of anything else.

Man isn't this lovely- First we're just talking about weapons, now it's a "let's crap all over SMN" thread.

[Darkwizardzin]

......Can we all just agree that SE needs to improve the staff relic/mythic/emp weapons so they match the melee weapons counterparts in usefulness?

[Aurara]

I think you are overlooking things. Nobody is "crapping all over smn" as you claim they are. What they are doing is being logical and pointing out things that SMN is good at(i.e EA, PD). I'm terribly sorry that you don't want to realize this, however it's the truth. SMN is not going to be better for curing, or DDing than say ukon war, kannagi nin vereth mnk, twash thf/dnc or most melee emps. We are not dissing SMN at all, we are just trying to point out that it does have limited uses. The neat thing is however, that in voidwatch smn is pretty useful for proccing and supporting the tank pt with EA. And just so you know, i'm and Ukonvasara war, with pretty much top gear, and i still get asked to WHM or THF to a lot of stuff.

[Alhanelem]

......Can we all just agree that SE needs to improve the staff relic/mythic/emp weapons so they match the melee weapons counterparts in usefulness?No, we can't. Because they're already useful. Not universally useful to everyone, but useful to the people who are interested in them. It's perfectly fine for some weapons to be desired more than others.

That said, there's always the possibility that the 95/99 trials will add other stats to all the weapons.


Nobody is "crapping all over smn" as you claim they are. What they are doing is being logical and pointing out things that SMN is good at(i.e EA, PD). They aren't being logical. SMN is not a one trick pony. SMN can be used for a HELL OF A LOT more than just PD or EA (And out of those things, PD is the only thing it has that no one else can do in any form); It's just not the NUMBER ONE BEST for those other things.

[Aurara]

Except SMN excels in AV fights, and Voidwatch, because EA is awesome for DMG reduction, and PD for AV zergs. SMN is great for hateless dmg, SMN was pretty good for Odin, SMN was even good for Khimaria AND Cerberus(questionable here). But the problem is that other jobs do it better than SMN in 98% of situations.

[Razushu]

Did everyone just climb out from under a rock? Pick a forum. Melee SMN first came out with colibri camps.



You do realize that Minikin's refresh is the ONLY reason that useful SMN have unlimited MP, right? We're one good update away from SMN crying about their MP again. I'm looking forward to the good old days again.

You are troll, aren't you? Please be honest here we won't judge. I've been telling you I don't run out MP EVER! seriously. melee SMN gives no MP extra over true SMN playstyle please stop spouting these lies

[Alhanelem]

Aurara (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/19131-Aurara)"[/B]]Except SMN excels in something no one cares about or does anymore
Fixed that for you.


melee SMN gives no MP extra over true SMN playstyle please stop spouting these lies
1) Yes, it does give more MP, and
2) there is no "true" SMN playstyle. You're welcome to play however you want,

Most of what Dallas says is nonsense, but I'm sorry, SMN cannot recover the amount of MP Myrkr can give through refresh and Siphon alone. These are not "lies." I challenge you to recover 1500 MP in less than 2 minutes without using ethers. You can't do it.

Even if it didn't give more MP (it does), that's not the point. The point is it allows both you and your avatar to fight continously, without running out of MP, which is the whole point of the strategy.

[Darkwizardzin]

is the staff emp useful with smn: yes in some ways it is.... is it useful for the other 2 jobs listed on that weapon: not realy (like smn blm and sch have 1 or 2 ways the staff can help but its much much less useful for those jobs) can any of this usefulness be conpared to the usefulness of a war having a ukko: no way in hell.

Im not saying the staff is useless im just saying (like with ageis) it could use a boost. Is that too much to ask?

[Aurara]

People dont do AV anymore? I certainly do, you're saying people don't do Odin anymore? Well i just did Odin 3 days ago and we had TWO smn! Granted people don't do khim or cerb really, but my statement still stands that SMN were great for those fights.

[Alhanelem]

People dont do AV anymore?There is no reason to do AV anymore. His drops became basically obsolete soon after they became obtainable.

Does someone do it once in a while for fun? I'm sure. But not outside of that.

Also, I'm pretty sure no other job in the game is wanted solely for its 2-hour. Thanks for the SMN praise, but no one should be proud of their only desirable point being an ability that requires no thought process to use and ignores 99% of everything else their job has.


Im not saying the staff is useless im just saying (like with ageis) it could use a boost. Is that too much to ask? I'm certainly not going to complain if more stats are added, but I also don't feel it is necessary. I do not want it turned into just another mage staff. It is special because of its differences.


can any of this usefulness be conpared to the usefulness of a war having a ukko: no way in hell. For the over 9000th time, no one is trying to beat a WAR with his weapon. They are simply trying to improve over what they were capable of before.

Summoner's biggest problem is being locked down by the blood pact timer. Until something is done about that, no stat on any piece of gear can solve it's current problems.

[Aurara]

There is no reason to do AV anymore. His drops became basically obsolete soon after they became obtainable.

Does someone do it once in a while for fun? I'm sure. But not outside of that.

Lol, no. N.sash is still awesome, Mars' ring is still somewhat useful. Minerva's ring, 8% MDT in one slot is amazing. Aureole, best m.acc ranged still. Rod is neat. Bellona's is still good. GKT is worthless. But you can still sell them, so idk about you but i like making money :0

[Korpg]

I challenge you to recover 1500 MP in less than 2 minutes without using ethers. You can't do it.

Actually......you can......really easy.....

Its called Convert. With the right build (meaning getting back 6 mp per tick refresh outside of abyssea) you can recover every bit of mp you used in a fight, and while maintaining that 6 mp per tick refresh, can ride out the 10 minutes using the same avatar without even blinking an eye.

Also, in case you do need mp again, there is elemental siphon for those who can't get +6 Refresh.

And inside Abyssea? You wouldn't run out of mp at all.

MP is not the issue here. It is Dallas's claim that he can out damage everyone that is the issue. Don't take it personally Al, it is not you that they are attacking, it is Dallas.

[Darkwizardzin]

For the over 9000th time, no one is trying to beat a WAR with his weapon. They are simply trying to improve over what they were capable of before.
Im not saying anyone is trying to beat a war with his weapon.... im saying that the damage increase that wars got because of the emp isn't equal to the bounses that blm, smn and sch got with there emp (not saying SE has to make everything perfect but the gap in usefulness of the 2 weapons imo is large :/ )

SE has done this before with weapons like these: look at how the blm mythic turned out. Im just saying they need to make these high end weapons worth there value for every job... not just a few.

[Korpg]

Also, I'm pretty sure no other job in the game is wanted solely for its 2-hour.

Corsair's Wild Card.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Uh no? No one is going to ask you to melee anything worthwhile because your melee damage on anything worthwhile is not worth you being in range of any/all high damaging AoE/Spells/Auras, so yes the only use of melee Smn is on weak shit and inside abyssea. Summoner being made to cure should have told you just how unwanted a job that has mediocre melee and spike damage on a 45 second timer at best is.

[Korpg]

Summoner being made to cure should have told you just how unwanted a job that has mediocre melee and spike damage on a 45 second timer at best is.

Actually, I think that people see the amount of mp a SMN can get, and also see the auto-refresh trait too, and automatically assume that SMN = healer without looking at the amount of natural cures a SMN really has.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Without a mage sub Smn can do nothing in between Bloodpacts which are mediocre at best (outside the 3 listed situations) while having one of the largest mp pools in the game as well.

[Korpg]

Without a mage sub Smn can do nothing in between Bloodpacts which are mediocre at best while having one of the largest mp pools in the game as well.

Maybe mediocre damage over time, but not mediocre spike damage and hate holding ability. Plus you forget the true jewel of being a SMN: fast pets. What really makes SMN shine is the ability to have a pet on a mob 100% of the time without having to wait for recast/cooldown timers. PUP comes in second only because of that 1 minute ability of theirs, but their pet will die very quickly afterwards unless full healed.

Not even BST has that ability anymore of fast pets.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That falls under situation 3 imo.

[Malamasala]

Corsair's Wild Card.

And BRDs soul voice.

Though it all depends on what you meant with "soley". BRDs and CORs are desired at other times too, SMN in much less situations.

[Korpg]

* There are three strategic uses for summoner:
1) You need Earthen Armor to mitigate heavy (often AoE) damage.
2) You need Perfect Defense for a zerg.
3) You need a low-hate/low-TP damage source often due to some hate-reset mechanism of the monster. In these situations, you sacrifice kill speed for safety and stability.


1) Earthen Armor is nice, but not the only worthwhile buff. Earthen Ward, Hastega, Ecliptic Growl, Noctoshield are all very nice buffs that also helps migrate damage.
2) I'll give you that.
3) I'll give you that also.

But you forget that SMN also can pet pull anything that links with the NM for a safer pull, for those NMs that spawn in the middle of aggroland.

Also, some SMN debuffs are very accurate and you can't find them anywhere else or as often as 45 seconds each time (here is looking at you Diamond Storm and Lunar Cry).

Plus, SMN is one of the best soloist jobs out there. You can't deny us that fact.

But to limit the usefulness to just the three quoted above, that is the real crime. SMN is very useful, you just don't see it because you only limit your thinking into those three categories.

[Byrth]

I added Situations 4 and 5, which I didn't consider at first because I don't normally make strategies for failure.

[Razushu]

1) Yes, it does give more MP, and
2) there is no "true" SMN playstyle. You're welcome to play however you want,

Most of what Dallas says is nonsense, but I'm sorry, SMN cannot recover the amount of MP Myrkr can give through refresh and Siphon alone. These are not "lies." I challenge you to recover 1500 MP in less than 2 minutes without using ethers. You can't do it.

Even if it didn't give more MP (it does), that's not the point. The point is it allows both you and your avatar to fight continously, without running out of MP, which is the whole point of the strategy.

1) I'm sorry, But I have already more than I can use from perp/refresh set and a sublimation /siphon. I can't recover that much in 2 minutes, but heres a challenge for you.... need that amount of MP. Full timing my perp/refresh set I save 240 MP a minute and gain an additional 40 which is a net gain of 280MP a minute so yes it would take me 5 minutes to gain back 1400MP. Sure melee gives back more MP than is needed, but if it's not needed what's the point. If the point is to maintain MP theres no real difference in more MP than i can use vs more MP than i can use.

2) There really, really is each job in this game is designed to have certain roles, I'm not denying that any job not designed to melee can gear up to improve it's melee. They all can, but whats the point if you're meleeing alongside the avatar the party loses your buffs and support job utility, if you're meleeing the goal is to maximise your personal damage so the best you can give a party is the buffs from the current avatar and if you're relliant on melee for MP then you can't really stop to support the party and keep the avatar out let alone keep up the BP damage.


For the over 9000th time, no one is trying to beat a WAR with his weapon. They are simply trying to improve over what they were capable of before.

Melee is more of a side grade than an improvement. Sure you do more damage personally but you lose out on the ability to buff properly and be a decent support role character.

[Korpg]

I don't see how having effective debuffs and safe pulls are considered a strategy for failure >.>

[Razushu]

Without a mage sub Smn can do nothing in between Bloodpacts which are mediocre at best (outside the 3 listed situations) while having one of the largest mp pools in the game as well.

Yes without a mage sub SMN can find itself riding timers, but our buffs are nowhere near mediocre

[Greatguardian]

Al, you're skipping over the entire point every single time you post. You keep saying that "It's not about how well SMN does compared to any other job", but it really, really is. Look, it's obvious it's not the best at anything. Only one job at a time is. If it was only about the #1 best, this would be a very lopsided discussion. No, we know SMN is nowhere near the best for anything aside from Byrth's 5 situations.

The thing is, you're trying to claim that it's "Viable" for more situations. Here's the thing, and I've said this already but it just did not seem to click, you have a different definition of "Viable". As far as what you are saying goes, "Viable" refers to being able to hit things, deal *Some sort of damage*, and not wipe. Will a SMN + WAR do more total damage than a WAR would solo? Yes. A + B is greater than A when B is a positive number. However, you're never comparing SMN + WAR to WAR only.

When you come SMN to something, you give up the opportunity to come another job to the same thing. That is your opportunity cost. If you are on SMN, and you have WAR, then you are comparing the damage of SMN + WAR to WAR + WAR. If you are on SMN and you have WHM, you are comparing the healing prowess of SMN + WHM to WHM + WHM. The difference in those is the opportunity cost you give up by coming on a weaker job.

Now, contrary to what Dallas says (lol), you don't need to compare SMN's healing prowess to the healing prowess of a WAR. Why? Because I'm assuming that the group in question is not functionally inept. If they need a healing role, they will be inviting you on WHM (which you switch to SMN, thus losing that effectiveness). If they are fine on healing and need a damage role, they will be inviting you on WAR (which you switch to SMN, thus losing that effectiveness). Groups do not look for Hybrid jobs to fill Hybrid roles. When a group invites a Hybrid job, they are asked to fill one primary role, and then perform their other hybrid roles as a secondary feature. If SMN is invited as a healer, they are a healer who can toss out BPs and keep an Avatar on as long as the player focus is on healing. If SMN is invited as a DD, they are a DD who can toss out cures as long as the player focus is on damage.

Example: How many CORs are invited as pure DDs? Probably very few. But COR is perfectly capable of giving the party buffs and then DD'ing as a secondary function. Likewise, when a Wildfire COR is invited as a DD, they are still perfectly capable of buffing their party while doing damage.

It is the bane of hybrid jobs to shout "BUT I CAN DO ALL OF THIS AT ONCE", when the FFXI group composition does not require people to do multiple things at once. Such a claim also severely stretches game theory outside the realm of possibility. SMN, BLU, RDM, they can't actually do everything at once. What they can do is do one thing and then switch to something else if need be. This is why it's so important to look at the individual roles that these jobs fill. At any given time, they will only be using one of them to its fullest effectiveness.

And herein lies the problem. SMN is a horrible healer. It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already). That leaves its only real potentially decent role as DD'ing. Here's the problem though. Where you say "It does plenty". I say, "It does less than literally everybody else aside from BLM, and SCH."

I do not call being 18th out of 20 jobs in the damage department "Plenty". Maybe you do. If that's the case, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Alhanelem]

Its called Convert. Convert has a 10 minute recast. Sorry, try again.

Convert isn't any faster than other sources of refresh overall, especailly when you consider the MP you spend recovering your HP. Let's say you have 1200 HP (Assuming you have more MP than HP). Convert gives you about 6MP/tick when you break it down.


you give up the opportunity to come another job to the same thing.Oppertunity cost can go *#&^$ itself. Sometimes, it's not about who can do what the fastest. Jobs exist for variety. From an elitist technical level, they could remove 15 jobs from the game without compromising game balance or playability. You might be giving up a little bit of this or that by playing on this job instead of that one, but WHO CARES? JESUS, IT'S A GAME! HAVE FUN PLAYING IT AND STOP BEING SO SRS BSNSS!


Melee is more of a side grade than an improvement. Sure you do more damage personally but you lose out on the ability to buff properly and be a decent support role character. You do NOT lose out on the ability to buff properly and support anyone. IT HELPS YOU! YOU ARE CLOSE TO EVERYONE, THEREFORE YOUR BUFFS WILL HIT EVERYONE! the whole point of Favor was an excuse to keep the avatar summoned. This synergizes perfectly with that! Your Blood Pact Wards will help everyone too, and do not hurt your damage as job abilities are quick. It's not a sidegrade. It's an improvement.


Full timing my perp/refresh set I save 240 MP a minute and gain an additional 40 which is a net gain of 280MP a minute so yes it would take me 5 minutes to gain back 1400MP. You're only saving "240 MP a minute" over a naked summoner. Everyone has some perp and refresh, so really, it will take you even longer.

[Greatguardian]

Oh hey, "It's a game", I thought I pre-empted that like 5 pages ago by saying "Hey, I don't care if that's what you find fun, go do it then, but that's not the same as saying that it's good".

Is it fun for you? Yes.

Do I care if you do it? No.

Does that mean that it's anything better than 18th out of 20 jobs in the damage department, and generally bottom of the barrel? Nope. Doesn't change a thing.

What you like and what you choose to do are completely independent of how good the job is.

[Alhanelem]

What you like and what you choose to do are completely independent of how good the job is. It is good, just not good enough for Mr. Pro Elitist. It's good enough that if you don't care about having the perfect setup, it's strong enough to be winnable. Strong enough to be useable. Strong enough period.

ANd whether you think it's pathetic or not, it brings you to the most that summoner is capable of. It's not my fault that the job can't put out the maximum numbers, Only SE can do something about that. All I can do is optimize it with the tools available to me.

[Byrth]

I don't see how having effective debuffs and safe pulls are considered a strategy for failure >.>

Sorry, you posted while I was posting. I was referring to something someone said on the previous page, mentioning how SMN is good at holding stuff. I also added that 6 summoners can kill almost anything that a party of 6 other jobs can kill, and safely. SE's proc system works against them, though. Also, /SMN is generally about as good as SMN main if you're just looking for pulling. You just need an avatar that lives long enough for everything nearby to link. It doesn't have to live for more than two hits.

Also, it's a little bit of a stretch to refer to yourself as one of the best soloists. You guys bore things to death and try desperately not to die. For solo kill speed, there are many better and more efficient options in a lot of situations. You're the best soloer in the same situation where you're the best source of damage, where you can't be in range (like WotG final fight).

The things you can solo that other people can't solo rely on the elemental resistance of your avatars or your ability to stay out of range while your avatar gets one-shotted. If they introduced something like BST's Snarl, you guys would be much more viable for melee soloing. As it is, you can't melee because your avatar's weak melee hits have to be able to pull hate off you after it dies, unless you go SMN/NIN (which I've done).

I considered trying to kill the Misareaux Tier 2 on SMN/NIN at 85 cap, because he's easy to run away, there's no point in stealing him, and he hits really hard, but I never got around to it before they raised the cap to 90. Went on Dancer and killed it in something like 3 minutes tops at 90, but maybe someday I'll go back just to check if SMN/NIN would work on it.


Point is, I do think that the Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility. The effort required to make Relic/Mythic/Empyrean staves is roughly equivalent to other Relics/Mythics/Empyreans, so it doesn't make sense that they're useful in only a fraction of the number of situations that the other weapons are. I think they need a buff. They all need Elemental Staff-style Affinity (MAB/MAcc/-Perp rolled into one) for all elements as high as the highest Magian staff at the absolute minimum, on top of the stats they already have.

If you compare the difference in damage/utility between other non-Big-Three weapons and Big Three weapons, this really isn't an unreasonable request.

[Korpg]

It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already).

I don't know, I think it will be kindof hard for 1 WHM to haste everyone in the alliance. Even 2 WHMs would be hard pressed.

Having a SMN in the party that does not have a WHM there would be a long way into making sure everyone in that alliance is buffed. Although they would be losing on Pro/Shell V, but they get Earthen Ward, Hastaga, and other buffs.

[Alhanelem]

As it is, you can't melee because your avatar's weak melee hits have to be able to pull hate off you after it dies, unless you go SMN/NIN (which I've done).Uh, you might want to reread what you wrote here. I know what you were trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come out right. :p

I don't know about you though, but my avatar can keep hate against me as long as I'm pacting as often as able.

edit: Also, @ haste: hastega is equally effective to the spell, and hastega lasts longer than the spell. This takes a huge load off a white mage, and the best part about this is it's on Garuda, which is the avatar of choice for melee strategy. So everyone gets their haste and everyone is happy. Hastega is easily the best general-purpose buff in the SMN aresenal. Earthen Armor is also great and one of the cited useful functions on the job, but it is more of a niche ability that's only useful in certain cases.

[Byrth]

Uh, you might want to reread what you wrote here. I know what you were trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come out right. :p

I don't know about you though, but my avatar can keep hate against me as long as I'm pacting as often as able.

You solo hard stuff, your avatar tanks, and your avatar never dies? Teach me your secrets, master.

For example, teach me how you would melee solo something as easy as Aggressor Antlion.

[Razushu]

And herein lies the problem. SMN is a horrible healer. It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already). That leaves its only real potentially decent role as DD'ing.


I've yet to find myself a subpar buffer or a horrible healer, and I actually find myself able to buff a party use BPs for damage and be ready to support the party ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Can I match a specialist in any one of these roles? No but I can do more in a party at once than any other job.

[Korpg]

Convert has a 10 minute recast. Sorry, try again.

Convert isn't any faster than other sources of refresh overall, especailly when you consider the MP you spend recovering your HP. Let's say you have 1200 HP (Assuming you have more MP than HP). Convert gives you about 6MP/tick when you break it down.

Ok, so, an instant cast MP recovery job ability, coupled by just either a few cures or a Lucid Potion II, is worthless compared to a WS that gives just as much back, but you have to get 300% TP to do so?

I'm not against you, but you seem to be taking a Dallas approach when it comes to people pointing out some flaws in your argument.

Besides, you must not have read the rest of the paragraph after that one little sentence. SMNs can ride out convert timers without having to desummon their avatar or melee for mp back.

[Alhanelem]

For example, teach me how you would melee solo something as easy as Aggressor Antlion. I probably wouldn't use that method on it only because I would need to give up the best atmas for the situation to give the avatar enough survivability. This doesn't have any relevance to what you or I wrote though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Stop acting like I would melee everything. I don't. I use it where it is reasonably possible to do so. And there are many things where it can be used. If an NM doesn't hit too hard such that you can resummon without getitng interrupted (Not too hard when you have well over 400 skill and Aquaveil as well), it can be done.


Ok, so, an instant cast MP recovery job ability, coupled by just either a few cures or a Lucid Potion II, is worthless compared to a WS that gives just as much back, but you have to get 300% TP to do so?Yes:
1)again, convert has a 10 minute recharge. It's not instant, except for the first time you use it.
2)You have potions, but so do I. And potions are only good once until you go get more.
3)You don't have to wait for 300% TP; doing so is optimal because it gives you the best aftermath bang for your buck, but it's hardly a requirement.
4) Myrkr at 300% potentially gives you back just as much or more MP (much more if you're Tarutaru) as convert but takes far less time. Myrkr is more efficient than Convert, end of story.


I'm not against you, but you seem to be taking a Dallas approach when it comes to people pointing out some flaws in your argument. I'm not taking a dallas approach. I put the requisite thought into this and I'm not just spurting extreme statements with no basis. The proof is in the pudding.

[Greatguardian]

I don't know, I think it will be kindof hard for 1 WHM to haste everyone in the alliance. Even 2 WHMs would be hard pressed.

Having a SMN in the party that does not have a WHM there would be a long way into making sure everyone in that alliance is buffed. Although they would be losing on Pro/Shell V, but they get Earthen Ward, Hastaga, and other buffs.

Unless that SMN is healing everyone in the alliance at the same time too, each party is going to have its own mage that is fully capable of hasting themselves and the <=5 other people who need it. Honestly, I'd take Shell V over Earthen Ward any day =/

[Alhanelem]

have its own mage that is fully capable of hasting themselves I agree, and this is one of the things that I've felt burned about with the cap rise, but again- Hastega lasts longer than the spell, and costs less MP overall than 6 single target haste spells. It's also simpler. Thus, it still has some advantages.

[Korpg]

Also, it's a little bit of a stretch to refer to yourself as one of the best soloists. You guys bore things to death and try desperately not to die. For solo kill speed, there are many better and more efficient options in a lot of situations. You're the best soloer in the same situation where you're the best source of damage, where you can't be in range (like WotG final fight).

I will admit that SMNs won't win in killspeed, but you have to admit that there are a lot of NMs there that would kill a BST or PUP, have high damaging AoE moves that goes thru shadows so a NIN or DNC can't solo it, and requires some strategy to kill solo. The Ironclad from Grauberg comes to mind. That Chariot that completes a Raja popset is another one that would be a very hard solo with anything but SMN.

Like I said, there are some things that a SMN can do, and do well, and soloist is one of them. We can kill more NMs than other jobs solo because of our ability to swap pets very quickly.

[Greatguardian]

I agree, and this is one of the things that I've felt burned about with the cap rise, but again- Hastega lasts longer than the spell, and costs less MP overall than 6 single target haste spells. It's also simpler. Thus, it still has some advantages.

Hastega may be more mp efficient, but it's not saving you any time or MP or actual efficiency because you're not replacing a Whm or Rdm with a Smn.

You gain Hastega efficiency when you replace something else with a SMN. What are you replacing? Probably a DD. Unless that Hastega efficiency (which really only affects SMN's MP, as a WHM or RDM can fulltime haste on the pt regardless) is more relevant than the loss of efficiency going from anything-not-SMN to SMN as a DD, then you are still losing efficiency using Hastega.

inb4 it's not about efficiency

[Byrth]

I probably wouldn't use that method on it only because I would need to give up the best atmas for the situation to give the avatar enough survivability. This doesn't have any relevance to what you or I wrote though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Stop acting like I would melee everything. I don't. I use it where it is reasonably possible to do so. And there are many things where it can be used. If an NM doesn't hit too hard such that you can resummon without getitng interrupted (Not too hard when you have well over 400 skill and Aquaveil as well), it can be done.

I dunno, he just seemed like a very easy low-tier NM that I knew Summoners had soloed. I've soloed him on BST, DNC, and a few times on BLM/BRD when I was going for seals. Are there any seal NMs that melee soloing is viable on?

Is there any point where meleeing is viable and you don't have a reasonable amount of support?

Are there any fights with a reasonable amount of support where it makes sense to have a meleeing summoner instead of another job, outside the 3-5 cases I listed earlier

Edit: Keep in mind that it's 2011. We no longer have to defend our job's viability in every situation, because we no longer have only one job. It takes about a week to get a job from 30 to 90 for the average player with a few friends. Merits, skilling up, gear, etc. I'd give it a month to have the job up to average. It isn't like 2006, where DRG sucking against Fafnir prevented dragoons from getting N.head. Now using an appropriate job is as easy as walking to the mog house.

[Korpg]

Yes:
1)again, convert has a 10 minute recharge. It's not instant, except for the first time you use it.
2)You have potions, but so do I. And potions are only good once until you go get more.
3)You don't have to wait for 300% TP; doing so is optimal because it gives you the best aftermath bang for your buck, but it's hardly a requirement.
4) Myrkr at 300% potentially gives you back just as much or more MP (much more if you're Tarutaru) as convert but takes far less time. Myrkr is more efficient than Convert, end of story.


1) So what if it has a 10 minute recharge? You asked if anything can get you back 1200 mp without using ethers and I responded as such.
2) So what, you can't get any more when the fight is over? You can't get any from the NMs that die? Potions are not rare.
3) It seems to me that it has to be a requirement to have 300% TP to get a good amount of MP back. But then again, I haven't even looked into the WS, so I really don't care. You asked for an instant 1200 MP, I gave you one.
4) I won't deny you that you can get more MP back than I would, but I don't need 1200 MP every 3 minutes.

[Razushu]

You do NOT lose out on the ability to buff properly and support anyone. IT HELPS YOU! YOU ARE CLOSE TO EVERYONE, THEREFORE YOUR BUFFS WILL HIT EVERYONE! the whole point of Favor was an excuse to keep the avatar summoned. This synergizes perfectly with that! Your Blood Pact Wards will help everyone too, and do not hurt your damage as job abilities are quick. It's not a sidegrade. It's an improvement.

You're only saving "240 MP a minute" over a naked summoner. Everyone has some perp and refresh, so really, it will take you even longer.

Why are you nitpicking over "My style gives more MP than your style" both styles give more MP than you can use EVER. It's a distinction WITHOUT a difference.

Again MP is a NON-ISSUE for either style please drop it so other aspects can be dealt with. Here's why with Garuda out I save(and I'm not saying this is all over a lolmelee) 240MP a minute gain 40MP too

This is 280MP a minute

over a 5 minute period I get

1400MP from perp/refresh set
204 for sublimation
490ish from Elemental Siphon

Thats 2094MP every 5 minutes.

I'm not saying this to point out how much more MP I get back over melee I'm sure it makes more MP. But this is more than a good SMN could use in a 5 minute period so MP management is not a reason to melee.

Favor is weak as hell only time I use it is with Carbuncle if I'm a healer. Ok cycle 4+ buff on your group and let me know how well you melee. Yeah I get that favor will hit everyone, But here's the dirty little secret you don't need to be there too so that's not a benefit inherent to SMN melee. Favor buffs are terrible they really are evasion up that resets every BP it's a non point. PLease be realistic in your claims I've said time and again yes SMN melee will do more damage personally BUT SMN support/DD will make the party do more damage and run smoother so yes it is a side grade.

[TybudX]

I just realized this thread is about a guy defending Empyrean staff staying the same over it being changed into something useful, because he wants to melee on SMN.

Alhanelem, really? Nobody is being "Elitist" here, you really do sound like a raving lunatic. You want to melee because... something? I don't know, you claim you can deal some sort of melee damage, which you say outweighs the benefits of having a SMN play a support role in a party? I think? You've flip flopped on shit so much, it's hard to keep track. Anyways, your whole melee thing requires you to use melee Atma, so you lose out on MAB related Avatar damage.

I'm willing to bet you that SMN/BLM spamming tier II spells (with proper staves) and using MAB related Avatars will out damage your Hvergelmir swinging ass.

Also, what do you do with all that MP you get back from Myrkr? Oh right, nothing. Good job.

[Ophiuchus]

First off I wasn't planning to get involved with this hypocritic argument... I just love how Al constantly contradicts himself throughout the time I've read his posts, starting over at ffxiclopedia. BG bans posters for "random" questions. How about the thread you locked simply because you felt the impending discussion was irrelevant?

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23249 and
http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23270

Also about how you're so valliantly defending you melee SMN viewpoint, stating how arguments against it are just subjective opinions. Yet the moment anyone mentions summoner spirits 80% of the time you're there to say something along the lines of "They're useless aside from a quick aggro/getaway, waste of time to even consider changing them."

Not that I arguing anything for spirits. Just stating how spirits are as "useless" in YOUR eyes as melee smn is useless in OTHER's eyes.

As for the actual OP I do feel mage mythic/relic/emp staffs need reworking because most mages are not designed to be front-line jobs. As others have said x-hit builds for smn and staff are very hard to manage effectively. Aside from that, playing a tank job myself sometimes, I hate excess tp-feeding even if it does end up killing the nm 1 min quicker. Of which the normal way smn is played that isn't an issue because BPs don't give tp. However with the melee method you're constantly giving about 13tp(with hver) a swing to the mob seeing as what little gear with subtle blow that smn has isn't being used cause of gearing haste/acc.

[Alhanelem]

inb4 it's not about efficiency Well, it IS about efficency; and you won't win a cure contest against a WHM, but it's not like summoners have never been asked to fill that role...


Is there any point where meleeing is viable and you don't have a reasonable amount of support?Yes. But as you mention, summoner is already able to solo. This improves your performance in a group setting more than in a solo setting.


We no longer have to defend our job's viability in every situation, because we no longer have only one job. We will always perform better on the jobs we favor. That's not to say you can't "master" them all, but if I get a summoner, I would rather it be one that's dedicated themselves to the job than any old person that just leveled it to 90 in a week on a whim. The same goes for most jobs. The people who focus on a few tend to handle their jobs better than the ones that level everything, and that remains true today.


I just love how Al constantly contradicts himself throughout the time I've read his posts,I just love how you baselessly slander me, because I have not contradicted myself.


Also about how you're so valliantly defending you melee SMN viewpoint, stating how arguments against it are just subjective opinions. Yet the moment anyone mentions summoner spirits 80% of the time you're there to say something along the lines of "They're useless aside from a quick aggro/getaway, waste of time to even consider changing them."This is a contradiction how?

Spirits are NOT viable. The people that use them use them for the same purpose that they would use an avatar- to inflict damage (except with light spirit, of course). However, avatars are vastly superior in every way. This is not a subjective opinion. It's a fact. Spirits do less damage, cost more MP (reduceable to same MP if merited), and are essentially uncontrollable.

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases. Using spirits instead of avatars is like meleeing with an elemental staff instead of a relic weapon. I do not, however, claim that you'll run circles around normal DDs, like someone else here does. It is just an incrimental improvement over what SMN is already capable of.


As for the actual OP I do feel mage mythic/relic/emp staffs need reworking because most mages are not designed to be front-line jobs.
They do not need reworking. For one, the Mythic weapons are already centered around the abilities of the jobs that weild them. For two, the relic and empyrean staves are special purpose weapons, designed for certain people who want to make use of what they can offer. They are not inferior, just different. If you don't want the relic or empyrean staff because of your views on the relevant jobs, that's your choice. The people who want weapons of this type should not be denied them.

[Greatguardian]

No one's saying that it's not an incremental damage increase over what Smn is normally capable of.

Only that Summoner is still about 18th place of 20 in the damage totem, with or without melee. You call that "Acceptable", and "Viable", and "More than people think it's capable of". I call it crap.

[Razushu]

Yes. But as you mention, summoner is already able to solo. This improves your performance in a group setting more than in a solo setting.

It doesn't improve SMN performance in a group like I keep saying

melee= better damage poorer buffs(don't mention favor it's very existence is pointless as is)/support
backline= lower damage better/more buffs and support

By all means play melee but it's no better than support style and it can create more problems for the SMN.

[Alhanelem]

Only that Summoner is still about 18th place of 20 in the damage totem, with or without melee. You call that "Acceptable", and "Viable", and "More than people think it's capable of". I call it crap.You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make you right. Your words are those of an elitist. It's not crap, it's an improvement. It will still be an improvement even if all of SMN's problems are magically addressed in an update, and when and if that time comes, you will be all the better for it.

It is viable and workable. Period.


It doesn't improve SMN performance in a group like I keep saying

melee= better damage poorer buffs(don't mention favor it's very existence is pointless as is)/supportAnd like I keep saying, it DOES improve SMN performance. Melee = better damage, same buffs. Easier to use the buffs. Meleeing decreases your ability to use your avatars buffs by precisely ZERO. It does not affect your ability to use buffs AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS.
I will keep menitoning favor because it is not pointless.Double attack rate? crit rate? stacks with other similar buffs? Far from pointless. The physical damage loss on the avatar is negligible.

You can stop repeating what you're saying now, because it's just plain incorrect. Having your weapon drawn does not mean your buffs get weaker, are harder to use, take longer, or have any detrimental effect on them whatsoever. NOTHING CHANGES. PERIOD.


By all means play melee but it's no better than support style and it can create more problems for the SMN. It does not create more problems. Buffing is not impacted. Curing specifically is a little more difficult, but that's only a problem if you specifically came to do that and are not doing it. That said, having your weapon drawn does not decrease the effectiveness of your spells, only the amount of damage you're able to inflict because you're stopping to cast magic (which is a problem for RDM too)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Play for fun, no one cares, just don't say your method is better than, well, a more efficient method. Smn isn't going to be asked to melee on anything that isn't weak crap when they can maintain mp while being out of danger and not being a liability to resources, and still providing backup healing/support.

[Razushu]

You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make you right. Your words are those of an elitist. It's not crap, it's a different way to play SMN that adds nothing but changes the focus that can be used in certain circmstances. It will still be a different way to play SMN that adds nothing but changes the focus that can be used in certain circmstances even if all of SMN's problems are magically addressed in an update, and when and if that time comes, you will be all the better for it.

It is viable and workable. Period.

fixed for accuracy

[TybudX]

Well, it IS about efficency

Holy ****. You are amazingly unaware.


I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases

Total damage increases even more if you play a real DD job. You can have one (pick one, there is quite literally 19 of them that are better than yours) at level 90 in a couple days, tops.

[Alhanelem]

fixed for accuracy
Not accurate. See my post for most accurate version. It does add something to the job. It's not a begin-all-end-all strategy appropriate for every situation under the sun. It does, however, make you more effective when you are able to use it.

Give it up, and open your da*n mind.


Holy ****. You are amazingly unaware. No, I'm not. You are not less efficient when you use this strategy.

Until you've gotten an empy weapon or relic and done it for yourself, stop talking. You don't know what you're talking about. We are talking about a completely viable tactic that improves Summoner's damage-dealing capability. It's not the best. No, i'ts not. No one said it was. It can't be used for absolutely everything. No one said it could be. It is however an improvement for the summoner itself. And I will be here defending it until the day you see it.

[Greatguardian]

There is a huge difference between "It's not the best" and "It's pretty much the absolute worst but that's still viable because FFXI is an easy game where I can be the absolute worst and still win".

Edit: Or, "It's pretty much the absolute worst, but that's still viable because my group can already kill the monster without me, so absolutely any tangible increase in damage I bring can be said to do something."

[Korpg]

No, I'm not. You are not less efficient when you use this strategy.

Until you've gotten an empy weapon or relic and done it for yourself, stop talking. You don't know what you're talking about. We are talking about a completely viable tactic that improves Summoner's damage-dealing capability. It's not the best. No, i'ts not. No one said it was. It can't be used for absolutely everything. No one said it could be. It is however an improvement for the summoner itself. And I will be here defending it until the day you see it.

You are not more efficient when you melee either.

You are adding damage but also adding the need for cures or raises. You are adding DoT but also adding more risk for the tank. You are adding MP but the other method doesn't need MP as much as you do.

Also, Dallas said that Emp Staff melee SMN outdamages Ukon WARs. So yeah, he did say that SMN damage is best.

I don't see it as an improvement as a SMN, but another method to play SMN now. And every post you make today makes you sound a lot like Dallas each time.

[Bumbeen]

So looks like it's over then?

Bravo!

[TybudX]

Until you've gotten an empy weapon or relic and done it for yourself, stop talking

First, and again, lo-f'inng-l. I have Empy staff on two of my mules strictly from all the excess pops I gathered from farming other stuff. Second, I do have real relics, ones that are useful to more than my SMN epeent. You call other people elitist? You are the most elitist person in this thread, period.

Third, as I said before, show me your melee SMN out-DDing a SMN/BLM spamming 1k tier II nukes every 12 seconds, while maintaining good Avatar damage, buffs, and MP. You can't. Your strategy is so poor that even a nuking SMN is going to do more damage than you. So what is your point now?

[Alhanelem]

"It's pretty much the absolute worst but that's still viable because FFXI is an easy game where I can be the absolute worst and still win". If that were the case, I would agree. but it's not. It is far from "pretty much the absolute worst." That would imply that this is inferior to just using the old BP+release method. It's not.

It is viable and useful to summoners. It is an improvement over not doing it. If you want to argue that SMN sucks in general, that's fine, go ahead. But it's absolutely unequivocally still a good strategy which increases your damage output.

[Alhanelem]

You call other people elitist? You are the most elitist person in this thread, period.You have got to be kidding me. I'm the least elitist person here. I'm not saying this is the most amazing thing in the universe. I'm not saying or pretending I'm better than anyone or even trying to be? HOW THE HELL AM I ELITIST?

THis has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with epeen. this is purely about an alternative playstyle which can have some benefits when you are able to take advantage of them. I have not bragged, I have not gloated, I have not done anything that is in any way elitist in this thread.


I have Empy staff on two of my mules strictly from all the excess pops I gathered from farming other stuff.Bee-flipping Ess.


pamming 1k tier II nukes every 12 seconds, while maintaining good Avatar damage, buffs, and MP. You can't.Two melee swings can do that much damage in abyssea, which is the only place where you can do 1k nukes on a subjob and maybe not resist. And two melee swings don't take 12 seconds.

You don't have to do this if you don't want to. You're not a horrible summoner if you don't. But don't go around saying this is the worst thing ever, because it's not. Is it the best thing ever? NO, IT'S NOT. I completely 100% agree with that. Is it the worst thing ever? Hell no. It's not.

[Bumbeen]

You elitist trash you!

[Greatguardian]

If that were the case, I would agree. but it's not. It is far from "pretty much the absolute worst." That would imply that this is inferior to just using the old BP+release method. It's not.

It is viable and useful to summoners. It is an improvement over not doing it. If you want to argue that SMN sucks in general, that's fine, go ahead. But it's absolutely unequivocally still a good strategy which increases your damage output.

You're talking about Melee vs BP (this post, at least). I'm talking about SMN vs ... not-SMN. I'm saying that regardless of the increase you get from Mykrr, SMN is still absolute bottom of the barrel crap compared to every other job in the game on the damage scale.

Summoner is only viable in the sense that you're not going to cause a wipe if the group was already able to win. Can WAR + WHM duo Orthrus? Yes. Can WAR + WHM + SMN trio Orthrus? Yes. But can WAR + SMN duo Orthrus? No. Can WHM + SMN duo Orthrus? No. Not viable.

[Alhanelem]

I'm talking about SMN vs ... not-SMN.I'm not. The melee summoner can perform better than the not melee summoner. The fact that this still doesn't bring it to a really competitive level is beyond my control. I am simply trying to get the most out of the Summoner job that I possibly can. Whether that's enough for any non-summoner, I couldn't care less. I only care if it is able to enhance what summoner can do. And it does.


Yes. But can WAR + SMN duo Orthrus?Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could. Obviously it would be too dangerous for the SMN to be up close in this case. But unless you need something that only WHM has, then yes. It's possible.

I am not Dallas. I'm not going to tell you that you can compete with the usual DD jobs. Let it be known, I never once claimed and am not claiming now that this was possible. Please understand this. All -I- am saying is that this broaden's the job's potential a little. It doesn't fix inherent problems with the job, but it does help you get more out of the job with those problems in place. Can you give me that much?

[Ophiuchus]

This is a contradiction how?

Spirits are NOT viable. The people that use them use them for the same purpose that they would use an avatar- to inflict damage (except with light spirit, of course). However, avatars are vastly superior in every way. This is not a subjective opinion. It's a fact. Spirits do less damage, cost more MP (reduceable to same MP if merited), and are essentially uncontrollable.

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases. Using spirits instead of avatars is like meleeing with an elemental staff instead of a relic weapon. I do not, however, claim that you'll run circles around normal DDs, like someone else here does. It is just an incrimental improvement over what SMN is already capable of.



The contradiction was how the two viewpoints on separate matters are attacked by the same mindset. I admit spirits are weak compared to avatars however I don't agree that their "purpose" was to be weak and that they should be left at that.

You dismiss spirits by facts and logic. The same way other's dismiss melee SMN.

As far as Dallas I already have him on a mental /blocklist you could say. I just dislike the personalities that both hates themselves and supports themselves depending on which has the greater return.

The introduction of mythic in my last statement was an admitted mistake. I feel they hold more over the relic/emp staff weapons.

Also I in fact love playing healing but absolutely cannot stand playing whm(and I used to like SCH until the 75 cap was raised). Why is that? I myself am not sure honestly perhaps just my own stubbornness somehow but I love how the normal way of smn is played. I can cure, buff, support, and, though in abyssea, pets that can deal 5k Nukes/45s which are nothing really to brag about in abyssea it certainly doesn't hurt to top it all off with that. Could my group be better off by getting a WHM and WAR to replace me, if they are decently geared, yes. However we thankfully don't have such a curse because we are a small group. Of which the main needed jobs for success are already filled by people that favorite those jobs. And seeing as we prefer fun over absolute effectiveness(subjective) we can take that luxery for what it's worth.

So the normal way of playing smn fits my situated play style almost perfect, the same way melee smn fits situational play styles. Though I personally see normal over melee, I don't go around spouting that as the best way to play the job. I prefer a more "do your own thing" attitude. Unfortunately however not everyone has the same respect and courtesy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*Cure V's and VI's and shell V totally doesn't exist at all.

[Greatguardian]

I'm not. The melee summoner can perform better than the not melee summoner. The fact that this still doesn't bring it to a really competitive level is beyond my control. I am simply trying to get the most out of the Summoner job that I possibly can. Whether that's enough for any non-summoner, I could care less.

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could.

Unless you've never fought Orthrus, you should know that sometimes you do. SMN doesn't have Shell V or Cure V either, and have shit for timers on IV. Really, it's unlikely that they can.

However, I'm glad you concede the point that SMN absolutely can't compare to other jobs. This is not something you have been willing to admit (for very long) for practically this entire thread. Yes, I've said a hundred times now that it's possible for melee to increase the damage potential of Summoner. But no amount of whack-a-mole with a staff is going to make Summoner a half-decent DD in comparison to ... anyone else (which is the only true measurement of being a half decent DD). Thus, Summoner as a whole is not a very viable job choice.

As long as we're cool on the fact that Summoner is bottom of the barrel regardless of whatever increase in efficiency the melee playstyle brings to it, I have no problem here. The same is likely true for the majority of the other posters here. Very few of us have been trying to say that Melee'ing is not an upgrade over not Melee'ing. Simply that it makes little difference in the overall scheme of things when it does not make SMN anything more than #18/20.

[Razushu]

And like I keep saying, it DOES improve SMN performance. Melee = better damage, same buffs. Easier to use the buffs. Meleeing decreases your ability to use your avatars buffs by precisely ZERO. It does not affect your ability to use buffs AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS.
I will keep menitoning favor because it is not pointless.Double attack rate? crit rate? stacks with other similar buffs? Far from pointless. The physical damage loss on the avatar is negligible.

You can stop repeating what you're saying now, because it's just plain incorrect. Having your weapon drawn does not mean your buffs get weaker, are harder to use, take longer, or have any detrimental effect on them whatsoever. NOTHING CHANGES. PERIOD.

There is NO WAY you can keep up the same number of buffs and support the party to near the same degree as me while meleeing. If you're cycling avatars to stack buffs you are not swinging, if you're casting subjob spells to back up the party you are not swinging. If you aren't swinging your staff eventually you'll run out of MP.

Double attack rate? crit rate? yeah these are nice, but aren't they off the less favored DD avatar's and then you add the fact you gimp them EVERYTIME you BP. Why are you so willing to do anything to melee on SMN. Surely the goal is to max out your damage but now you're using weaker avatars to boost your damage with buffs that resent went you BP and even hurt your avatar's damage anyway.

Of course having a weapon drawn won't weaken buffs never said that BUT it severely lowers your ability to support the party purely by the fact you can't melee while casting, which means you have to make a choice between maximizing your melee damage or focusing on casting to back up your team mates. You can't do both or there'd be no such thing as a backline WHM

[Alhanelem]

I don't agree that their "purpose" was to be weak and that they should be left at that. The thing is, spirits have useful purposes. Offense just isn't one of them.


You dismiss spirits by facts and logic. The same way other's dismiss melee SMN. I haven't seen any facts and logic other than comparing the job to a mainline DD and saying it won't perform anywhere near that. Let it be clear: That is not in dispute. This is only about improving the summoner from it's current capacity with the (however problematic) tools currently at our disposal. That is all this is about. Nothing more.


There is NO WAY you can keep up the same number of buffs and support the party to near the same degree as me while meleeingYou absolutely can. You do it the same way you did it without your weapon drawn. Having your weapon drawn has zero impact on your ability to press your BP macro or summon a different avatar.
Ordinarily, I would stick to a few buffs which I can easily maintain without having to resummon every 45 seconds. But if you really really want every single summoner buff, sure. I'll do it just as well as any other summoner. I repeat: Being engaged does not affect your ability to cast summons, nor does it affect your ability to press whatever button your BP macro is on.

[TybudX]

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could.

...

Is this another one of those things that SMN can't do because it's out of your control?

"It's not my fault that the job can't main heal a WAR, Only SE can do something about that"

[Ophiuchus]

The thing is, spirits have useful purposes. Offense just isn't one of them.


That right there. How do you get to dictate what is their useful purpose? You argument is the same as other's who say melee smn is not smn's purpose.

[Alhanelem]

...

Is this another one of those things that SMN can't do because it's out of your control?

"It's not my fault that the job can't main heal a WAR, Only SE can do something about that"
You aren't making sense. Come back when you can make an intelligible statement.

I have never tried to duo Orthrus, so I don't really know how much curing capacity is really needed. Thankfully,Razushu (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/3304-Razushu)covered that in an intelligent civil manner (And I thank him for that). I'm still thinking it would be possible, though probably much more difficult.


How do you get to dictate what is their useful purpose?I didn't dictate their useful purposes. The playerbase, and SQUEENIX, did. SE added the Elemental Siphon ability. There's a use.
Spirits cast fast, so they can be helpful sometimes to get an aggro'd mob off. Light spirit is useful for being able to give you higher tier pro/shell among other things. So you're saying that I'm the first person to say they are useful for these things?

Let's go over spirits for damage, shall we? The spirits have no magic attack bonus, so their nukes are inferior to anyone else who can cast the same spell. Second, they have some spells you probably don't want them to cast, and it chooses the spell mostly at random (doesn't choose elemental debuffs or enfeebles if the mob already has them). Third, they have no durability, and cannot be controlled. I'm not an authority on the entire game, but those facts SOUND to me like they'd make for inferior combat ability to avatars, which are capable of higher damage. The only real advantage to using spirits to nuke that I can see off-hand, is the small chance that you could get abyssea procs with them.

Trying to use my logic against me doesn't make the statements above less valid.

[TybudX]

It makes perfect sense if you've ever played SMN in a healing capacity, or been on a DD job that is capable of pulling hate.

[Razushu]

You aren't making sense. Come back when you can make an intelligible statement.

I have never tried to duo Orthrus, so I don't really know how much curing capacity is really needed. Thankfully,Razushu (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/3304-Razushu)covered that in an intelligent civil manner (And I thank him for that). I'm still thinking it would be possible, though probably much more difficult.

Thanks for the compliment.Forgive me for this:

Who knows perhaps in another time, another place we could've been friends.

I have always wanted to say that to someone.

Now back to the discussion at hand

[Alhanelem]

I wouldn't rule that out. So we have a disagreement about something. It's not the end of the world. I respect you for adressing things properly, without personal attacks or superlatives.


Why are you so willing to do anything to melee on SMN.I'm not, and I'm sick of you and others painting me as If I do this all the time, every minute on SMN. Often I have a specific purpose for being on the job. If I'm absolutely needed for one specific reason, then I'm going to do the best I can in performing that purpose.

This is not an all the time thing. It is for when you want to focus on damage. You can still buff (and Ifrit is not a bad avatar to have out, the new enfire is pretty good and the Warcry effect is okay as well, though I wish it lasted a lot longer- The same sort of thing goes for ramuh, but since ifrit's enspell effect is better, ramuh is basically depreciated now)

Focusing on healing, damaging without any potential for hate disruption, and full-on support are all still all just as effective as always. Maximizing DD capability can sometimes be an ideal strategy. Sometimes it's not. I think this adds something to summoner (I will go along with the term "sidegrade", because it's reasonably appropriate). It's not a replacement for being able to do everything else that SMN can do, however.

[Razushu]

I wouldn't rule that out. So we have a disagreement about something. It's not the end of the world. I respect you for adressing things properly, without personal attacks or superlatives.

I just couldn't resist. The same here it's nice to get actual feedback rather than whatever it is that Dallas does. Also your sig is awesome

[Korpg]

I just couldn't resist. The same here it's nice to get actual feedback rather than whatever it is that Dallas does. Also your sig is awesome

Oh, Dallas just proclaims himself as God and expects you to worship him.

Personally, I would just ignore his rants.

[Alhanelem]

Oh, Dallas just proclaims himself as God and expects you to worship him.

Personally, I would just ignore his rants.
It really furstrates me to have anyone put me in the same group with him. I am passionate about what I do, but I don't look at anyone who does something different and call them gimp.

[Razushu]

It really furstrates me to have anyone put me in the same group with him. I am passionate about what I do, but I don't look at anyone who does something different and call them gimp.

Don't worry I don't think anyone puts you in the same group as him.

And I don't think anyones calling anyone gimp except the non-SMNs and Dallas, unless you're calling me gimp and it's whooshing me :D

[Dallas]

You're an idiot, because the point isn't to be the best. It's to be better than oneself could have been.

Clarification: The "could have beens," for all the FFXI impaired BG evacuees, are all you subpar SMN who only know how to use Alexander.

[Alhanelem]

And I don't think anyones calling anyone gimp except the non-SMNs and Dallas, unless you're calling me gimp and it's whooshing me :D
absolutely not.

Try to remmeber, I am only posing this as an alternate playstyle. Not the end-all best way to play the job. There are times when it can be better, and there are also plenty of not-so-much times.

Edited for quotation

[Dallas]

Al, anyone can play gimp when the situation calls for gimp. Look at Byrth and GG. Do you think they can't figure out how to take their naked SMNs in and use Alex's 2hr?

[Razushu]

absolutely not.

Try to remmeber, I am only posing this as an alternate playstyle. Not the end-all best way to play the job. There are times when it can be better, and there are also plenty of not-so-much times.

Edited for quotation

I see that, I can see the benefits of both styles(the melee side a little clearer now). They both have ups and downs and it seems that they both balance out fairly well when the circumstances allow.

[Korpg]

Clarification: The "could have beens," for all the FFXI impaired BG evacuees, are all you subpar SMN who only know how to use Alexander.

Clarification: The Savior has spoke. Bow down to him or suffer the wrath of his gimp comments directed towards you.

[Korpg]

I see that, I can see the benefits of both styles(the melee side a little clearer now). They both have ups and downs and it seems that they both balance out fairly well when the circumstances allow.

Absolutely nothing wrong with melee summoners at all, when they can pull it off.

But they lose a lot of solo ability doing so, that is another problem that needs to be solved.

[Greatguardian]

Question: If it makes non-Dallas SMNs gimp by not melee'ing for the minor added damage boost it would offer, how gimp does it make Dallas for not using a job with an Empyrean that can do over 5x the damage an Empyrean SMN can?

[TybudX]

Wait, there's two melee SMNs? This thread could only be more awesome if it had ninjas throwing stuff in it.

[Korpg]

Question: If it makes non-Dallas SMNs gimp by not melee'ing for the minor added damage boost it would offer, how gimp does it make Dallas for not using a job with an Empyrean that can do over 5x the damage an Empyrean SMN can?

Don't know, probably as gimp as wasting the upgrade items it took to get it to 85 and 90 which could have been used for anything else, even flooring the items themselves.


Wait, there's two melee SMNs? This thread could only be more awesome if it had ninjas throwing stuff in it.

No, what would make this more awesome is by having an anti-cheater say that non-melee summoners are cheating when they do as good damage as a melee summoner does.

[Greatguardian]

Starcade was banned, though.

[Dallas]

Question: If it makes non-Dallas SMNs gimp by not melee'ing for the minor added damage boost it would offer, how gimp does it make Dallas for not using a job with an Empyrean that can do over 5x the damage an Empyrean SMN can?

I'm glad you committed to a number. Your shame will be delicious.

[Korpg]

Starcade was banned, though.

Damn.


I'm glad you committed to a number. Your shame will be delicious.

How long before you can photoshop or fake a parse to show you outdamage a Ukon WAR?

[Greatguardian]

Oh okay. Pull up a math-whiz. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of overall damage between a Ukonvasara WAR/SAM and a Hver SMN/SAM using Garuda and P claws, holding TP to 300% for Mykrr. Both jobs can have March+3 x2, Haste spell, Haste Samba, and Red Curry Buns, aka sustainable buff conditions for a group that doesn't suck. I assume SS RR Apoc or VV RR Apoc for the WAR, whichever is stronger. VV RR Apoc for the SMN? Or is there something better?

Byrth or Raen or someone similarly inclined mind running something like this out?

Edit: Does a level 95 monster with 420 defense and 85 VIT sound about right?

[Dallas]

Apoc does little to nothing for Pred Claws. VV/SS/RR works very well.

[Korpg]

Oh okay. Pull up a math-whiz. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of overall damage between a Ukonvasara WAR/SAM and a Hver SMN/SAM using Garuda and P claws, holding TP to 300% for Mykrr. Both jobs can have March+3 x2, Haste spell, Haste Samba, and Red Curry Buns, aka sustainable buff conditions for a group that doesn't suck. I assume SS RR Apoc or VV RR Apoc for the WAR, whichever is stronger. VV RR Apoc for the SMN? Or is there something better?

Byrth or Raen or someone similarly inclined mind running something like this out?

Edit: Does a level 95 monster with 420 defense and 85 VIT sound about right?

You might as well make the atmas the same also, just to show the true difference between the two jobs.

[Alhanelem]

Absolutely nothing wrong with melee summoners at all, when they can pull it off.

But they lose a lot of solo ability doing so, that is another problem that needs to be solved.
You don't lose anything... Pet kiting is still your friend; It's not like I threw away my other staves or anything. I can still use it when necessary.

Personally, I find SMN in this situation to be great at gathering light. The weapon skill you're using doesn't do direct damage, thus you cannot cause ruby, no matter what you're fighting. And All blood pacts give pearl light, so you can spike down a mob and still get pearl. You also have a good magic WS in Cataclysm, that still does enough damage without being boosted to be able to get the amber lights. It's no Cleave or Charged Whisker, of course, but it can still be helpful on occasion.

This sticks out in Tahrongi, where most of the normal mobs do not give Amber (except the most unfriendly ones). So, my group usually has me go over to the turtles or hunt the tier 1s to get amber while they farm cockatrice or cats (Was going to say something else, but that's kind of inapproprate lol) with AoE spam to get lots of chests. Sure, I'm hardly the only one who can do that- but it worked pretty nicely for us.

[Greatguardian]

You might as well make the atmas the same also, just to show the true difference between the two jobs.

I'd rather the atmas be whatever's ideal for the job. I don't want any wiggle room for technicalities.

[Razushu]

Oh okay. Pull up a math-whiz. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of overall damage between a Ukonvasara WAR/SAM and a Hver SMN/SAM using Garuda and P claws, holding TP to 300% for Mykrr. Both jobs can have March+3 x2, Haste spell, Haste Samba, and Red Curry Buns, aka sustainable buff conditions for a group that doesn't suck. I assume SS RR Apoc or VV RR Apoc for the WAR, whichever is stronger. VV RR Apoc for the SMN? Or is there something better?



Byrth or Raen or someone similarly inclined mind running something like this out?

Edit: Does a level 95 monster with 420 defense and 85 VIT sound about right?

I don't think anyone with a mental level above that of a desk lamp is saying SMN can out DD a WAR

[Korpg]

You don't lose anything... Pet kiting is still your friend; It's not like I threw away my other staves or anything. I can still use it when necessary.

Personally, I find SMN in this situation to be great at gathering light. The weapon skill you're using doesn't do direct damage, thus you cannot cause ruby, no matter what you're fighting. And All blood pacts give pearl light, so you can spike down a mob and still get pearl. You also have a good magic WS in Cataclysm, that still does enough damage without being boosted to be able to get the amber lights. It's no Cleave or Charged Whisker, of course, but it can still be helpful on occasion.

No, you misunderstood.

I'm stating that you can't solo NMs while meleeing them, because you lose the viability of either pet kite or pet tank.

I mean, sure, there are some NMs where it wouldn't hurt to melee (Brooder, the T2 in La Theine comes to mind) but there are some that it would be detrimental for you to melee at all (Chloris, or Chione comes to mind here). I'm not stating that you have Dallas's state of mind where its melee or GTFO, but there are situations where meleeing = death. Lots of situations like that.

[Alhanelem]

It's really not necessary- I already know that even at our absolute maximum capacity, we cannot compete with a WAR like that. If you're trying to convince Dallas, that will never happen, he's just too blind.

[Greatguardian]

I don't think anyone with a mental level above that of a desk lamp is saying SMN can out DD a WAR

It's too bad we have someone in here with the mental level below a desk lamp, isn't it?

[Dallas]

I'd rather the atmas be whatever's ideal for the job. I don't want any wiggle room for technicalities.

Then remove all atma AND buffs outside what the job gan give itself. Pets don't benefit from party buffs, which is why you specifically set it up the way you did.

[Korpg]

I'd rather the atmas be whatever's ideal for the job. I don't want any wiggle room for technicalities.

Too late for that. If you keep the atmas the same Dallas would state that he wasn't given the atmas he would have choosen, and if the atmas benefited the job individually Dallas would state that the atmas determined the difference, not the job.

Edit: But then again, he pulls one on us and tries to make him look good by taking away the only viable way that a SMN can melee effectively. So he can state that the difference is negligible because it deals with situations outside of Abyssea and it is in Abyssea he really shines.

[Dallas]

Korpg, you aren't qualified to speak for me. You aren't close.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then remove all atma AND buffs outside what the job gan give itself. Pets don't benefit from party buffs, which is why you specifically set it up the way you did.

So you can outmelee unhasted DDs, okay.

[Korpg]

Korpg, you aren't qualified to speak for me. You aren't close.

Be quiet son, the adults are talking now

[Greatguardian]

So you can outmelee unhasted DDs, okay.

^ This. Unless you're competing with a solo WAR, in an area where everyone knows SMN is actually decent (Solo), there is no reason not to have outside buffs.

[Korpg]

But guys, a naked Ukon WAR with 0 skill on GA vs a merited Emp Staff SMN sounds fair, right?

[Greatguardian]

Makes perfect sense.

[Dallas]

I didn't tell you to stop GG, I just pointed out how you are not interested in "fair." By all means, pretend that the party setup is ever: WAR/SAM SMN/SAM WHM BRD DNC ???.

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

[Greatguardian]

It is a perfectly normal situation. All of those buffs are perfectly sustainable and 100% available to any group that doesn't suck. Whine less.

Buffs not transferring to pets is probably the hugest weakness of Summoner. That does not mean they deserve a handicap or that it can be ignored when doing a serious damage comparison. No amount of b'awww will change the fact that a buffed WAR will tear a buffed SMN to shreds.

[Korpg]

I didn't tell you to stop GG, I just pointed out how you are not interested in "fair." By all means, pretend that the party setup is ever: WAR/SAM SMN/SAM WHM BRD DNC ???.

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

See, his excuse as to why his numbers are wrong, without even having the math wiz guys work the numbers for him.

"Of course it is not fair, because I'm always right and everyone else is wrong and everyone else is against me and skews the numbers in their favor even though its both a generally accepted prinicple and well received by everyone but me, but I'm better than them because I say so!"

[Alhanelem]

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me. I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who started the "let us cure and buff pets" thread here.

[Dallas]

Don't stop, GG. Only Korpg (and any idiot that listend to Korpg) thinks I said SMN can beat Ukon. I want him to have numbers. If you do manage to get the math, I'm going to quickly convert it to Korpg's BP/release style versus melee SMN.

[Korpg]

I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who started the "let us cure and buff pets" thread here.

But since he said it now, he must have discovered that 5 years ago, right about the same time as Ducal Guard's usefulness and beating relics out of the water with his super staff skillz.

[Greatguardian]

Don't stop, GG. Only Korpg (and any idiot that listend to Korpg) thinks I said SMN can beat Ukon. I want him to have numbers. If you do manage to get the math, I'm going to quickly convert it to Korpg's BP/release style versus melee SMN.

In the interest of time, I'll be putting a preliminary run through on Motenten's spreadsheets. What are your gear sets on DDSMN? I don't have any frame of reference to put gear into the calculations.

[Razushu]

You don't lose anything... Pet kiting is still your friend; It's not like I threw away my other staves or anything. I can still use it when necessary.

The only thing you really lose is safety, avatar's have a nasty habit of dying unexpectedly unless you're using tanking atmas but if you're careful it'll work


my group usually has me go over to the turtles or hunt the tier 1s to get amber while they farm cockatrice or cats (Was going to say something else, but that's kind of inapproprate lol)


just lol

[Razushu]

It's too bad we have someone in here with the mental level below a desk lamp, isn't it?

I don't know who you possibly could mean

[Razushu]

I didn't tell you to stop GG, I just pointed out how you are not interested in "fair." By all means, pretend that the party setup is ever: WAR/SAM SMN/SAM WHM BRD DNC ???.

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

and everyone else I've personally been saying pets should get buffs since the day I learned they didn't(back when I was a lvl18 BLM/nothing still learning about the game)

and even then I wouldn't say No.1 because ya know the other jobs still have their extra stats from gear to keep the gap wide enough

[Korpg]

Don't stop, GG. Only Korpg (and any idiot that listend to Korpg) thinks I said SMN can beat Ukon. I want him to have numbers.

Hi (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9679-Do-Relic-Mythic-and-Empyrean-staves-lack-utility?p=121254#post121254)

How are you doing (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6943-DEV1010-Pet-job-adjustments?p=92559#post92559)

Hope this is enough for you (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6943-DEV1010-Pet-job-adjustments?p=90913#post90913)

Mind you, these are just 3 posts stating that the staff is just under other emp weapons. That is not including avatar damage which basically states that he does more damage than any other emp users.

[Razushu]

In the interest of time, I'll be putting a preliminary run through on Motenten's spreadsheets. What are your gear sets on DDSMN? I don't have any frame of reference to put gear into the calculations.

he TPs in 23% haste and -38 emnity doesn't use acc/atk food or gear he said so himself but I can't remember what thread

[Dallas]

In the interest of time, I'll be putting a preliminary run through on Motenten's spreadsheets. What are your gear sets on DDSMN? I don't have any frame of reference to put gear into the calculations.

Would haste/DA/attack work? 22%/7%/430 (in moghouse)

It doesn't need to be exact. Oh, and Al, here's my thread that Korpg ruined:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6943-DEV1010-Pet-job-adjustments

I’ll be happy to find even older posts/threads from wiki.

[Dallas]

he TPs in 23% haste and -38 emnity doesn't use acc/atk food or gear he said so himself but I can't remember what thread
If there is a WAR, you can bet I'm not using any -enmity.

[Korpg]

Would haste/DA/attack work? 22%/7%/430 (in moghouse)

It doesn't need to be exact. Oh, and Al, here's my thread that Korpg ruined:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6943-DEV1010-Pet-job-adjustments

I’ll be happy to find even older posts/threads from wiki.

Yeah, I ruined by pointing out your flaws in your argument? Yeah...

[Dallas]

Yeah, I ruined by pointing out your flaws in your argument? Yeah...
LOL, you didn't even read enough to know that GG is the guy who asked for clarification on the Ukon statement.

[TybudX]

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

[Korpg]

You still stated that the staff alone does what, 7.5% DoT damage less than Ukon? Not including the avatar's damage in that equation?

And yet, you continue to spout that even with Masamune also.....what was it, 4% DoT damage less also?

[Korpg]

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

Between 525 and 575, but that is an eyeball estimate.

[Greatguardian]

He meant weapon D, and yeah that's the problem I'm having right now. I have SMN's personal damage down, I think. Pclaws is easy enough to just average. 4k Pclaws every 45s sound accurate? It's just a matter of tacking on Garuda's physical hits.

[Korpg]

He meant weapon D, and yeah that's the problem I'm having right now. I have SMN's personal damage down, I think. Pclaws is easy enough to just average. 4k Pclaws every 45s sound accurate? It's just a matter of tacking on Garuda's physical hits.

Without +2 Emp bonus, yeah, 4k is about average.

[Dallas]

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

Kegsay did a lot of work.


Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.


Kegsay's work here:

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/5510.html

[Alhanelem]

If carbuncle has higher attack, its base damage must be lower, right? because Carbuncle very clearly hits for less than other avatars.


Without +2 Emp bonus, yeah, 4k is about average. Sounds fair to me, it can spike much higher, and can go much lower if she whiffs.

[Byrth]

There's no point in running a comparison. Normally for threads like this, I'd try to favor my opposition's point as much as possible when running a comparison, so they'd be inclined to agree with the results (or at least not have any complaints against them). I can't do that in this situation though, because Summoner has literally no advantages to build on and I don't believe seeing math would change anyone's mind.
This damage comparison (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9679-Do-Relic-Mythic-and-Empyrean-staves-lack-utility?p=125950&viewfull=1#post125950) is about the best I can do. They just don't have a leg to stand on. If people can't see that, how are they going to read math I do and become convinced?

Here is some more pseudo-math, starting with assumptions:
GA WS Damage = Predator Claw Damage (very favorable to SMN)
GA DPS = Staff DPS (incredibly favorable to SMN, even if SMN has AM3 and WAR has AM1. Double Attack is better than Double Damage because you do twice as much damage and get twice as much TP.)
SMN WS damage = 0
Avatar BP Rate = 1 Blood Pact every 45 Seconds
Avatar DPS << Staff DPS (with Haste buffs as GG proposes, remember that Staff DPS = GA DPS)

Now we can ask, when does:
GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate + GA DPS = Staff WS Damage * Staff WS Rate + BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS + Avatar DPS

GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate + GA DPS = 0 * Staff WS Rate + BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS + Avatar DPS
GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate = BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS - GA DPS + Avatar DPS
GA WS Rate = (BP Damage * BP Rate + Avatar DPS) / GA WS Damage
GA WS Rate = BP Rate + Avatar DPS / GA WS Damage
GA WS Rate = 1/45 + Avatar DPS / GA WS Damage


So, following the assumptions I made above (all pretty incredibly favorable to Summoner), the GA user would need to WS slightly more often than once every 45 seconds (enough to compensate for the Avatar DPS) in order to maintain higher overall melee damage. Hedging for those assumptions, the Ukon WAR could probably WS once every 45 seconds and maintain a higher damage output. With a 6-hit and no Haste in gear, a Ukon WAR gets 100 TP every 50 seconds including WS delay. If you add 50% Haste (Hasso, Haste, gear), they get 100 TP every 26 seconds (again including WS delay). If you add things like GG wanted to add, they start self-skillchaining.

I'm sorry if this is unclear. I tried to show all the steps.



It would be more competitive if it was something like, "Compare Empyrean WAR/SAM and SMN/SAM soloing EP mobs outside Abyssea separately, including downtime." SMN really hurts when Haste comes into the equation.


Anyway, lovers of Summoner, you do your job a disservice by not being honest with yourself about its weak points. You should ask for worthwhile job adjustments that address some of the problems with the job of asking whether you're going to get a new avatar once a week and apparently arguing that your big-3 Staves don't need buffs.

[Alhanelem]

You don't really need to do that. No one here, except for one person, thinks that even the maximum possible damage SMN can output can match or come close to a war with relic/mythic. That's never what it was about, at least for me.

[Korpg]

Don't worry Byrth, we all knew the results of the math even without the math.

Only person who was questioning the results is the one who claims that he can out damage Ukon WARs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: beaten by byrth, need2refreshmore

[Razushu]

If carbuncle has higher attack, its base damage must be lower, right? because Carbuncle very clearly hits for less than other avatars.

Sounds fair to me, it can spike much higher, and can go much lower if she whiffs.

Yeah nothing hurts more than seeing an 600-800 after a 5K predator claws

[TybudX]

No, it's about Empyrean/Relic/Mythic staves getting something useful. SMN meleeing, no matter how 'effective' it is, is not a good reason for SE to keep making 'ultimate mage weapons' that suck compared to level 51 craftables.

[Alhanelem]

No, it's about Empyrean/Relic/Mythic staves getting something useful. SMN meleeing, no matter how 'effective' it is, is not a good reason for SE to keep making 'ultimate mage weapons' that suck compared to level 51 craftables.
Um, relic and empyrean weapons are far superior weapons to elemental staves. Elemental staves have their own completely seperate purpose and are vaulable items. But it's the elemental staves that suck when you're trying to attack something with them. If you do not want to attack with them, sure the empy/relic weapons suck. That's why we have this thing called an inventory and we have the capability of using different equipment for different purposes.

Aside from that, there are a grand total of two particularly useful melee weapons, the relic and the empyrean, for SMN. (At 75 there was three, but weapons become obsolete easily). I guess some of the other magian trial weapons could work too. They do not "keep making ultimate mage weapons." The mythic weapon doesn't even belong in this category, because Nirvana is awesome for any purpose. It's just almost impossible to get.

[Greatguardian]

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nirvana yes, the others compared to ToM staves (which is what he should have compared them to instead imo) no.

[Alhanelem]

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.
The only thing that is important here is that the DPS with player and avatar > DPS of the avatar. Obviously, Dallas is kididng himself if he thinks he can compete with an empy WAR. I could have told you that.

Anyway... a small handful of DD staves amidst a pile of magey staves is not a problem. SMN gets an awesome mythic weapon if by some miracle you can obtain one. I'm not sure what to say about the BLM or SCH mythics though.

[Korpg]

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?


Namely, Garuda (and only Garuda) can receive haste, so having DPS at 400 seems about right for the situations at hand.

Edit: Misread, sorry.

[Dallas]

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

Amazing you attribute all that damage to WAR, not the SMN, DNC, or BRD who provided the buffs.

[Aurara]

Anyway... a small handful of DD staves amidst a pile of magey staves is not a problem. SMN gets an awesome mythic weapon if by some miracle you can obtain one. I'm not sure what to say about the BLM or SCH mythics though.
The blm and sch mythics are pretty terrible, nirvana is awesome though

[Korpg]

Amazing you attribute all that damage to WAR, not the SMN, DNC, or BRD who provided the buffs.

Wow, can you be any more dense? I mean, seriously?

[Aurara]

Wow, can you be any more dense? I mean, seriously?

He's 100% serious it seems.

[Dallas]

Hey Korpg, is it time to point out that 400-250 = 150 = Bp/release fail?

[Korpg]

Hey Dallas, is it time to point out that I never said I did BP/Release and that your whole argument fails? Your ENTIRE argument fails completely.

[TybudX]

stuff

You would seriously rather have a weapon that is only useful when you don't even need to be at an event over one that augments SMN's BP damage and perpetuation costs? So SMN meleeing > Avatar BP x1.3 and Perp -6 on a single staff? Remember, it's going to have about the same crappy base damage and delay, so all you lose out on is ODD and ~1500mp that you aren't using anyways, and you gain some random crap staff WS damage in the mix.

At 254dps on melee swings with ODD 60% your regular dps would be 158ish. Lets say PC goes from 4500 -> 5850 average, you end up with 1350/45 = 30dps from better BP damage, so now you are at 188dps. You need 66dps to make up the difference. Lets say you WS once every 4.1 seconds, plus JA delay so 6.1 seconds. Your random crappy WS only has to do 400 damage and you are back on par with Empyrean meleeing, while having a staff that isn't actually completely gimp for every other SMN in the game except Dallas.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except he assumed the Smn is getting the same buffs - you know, forget it, your skull is too thick to get it.

[Dallas]

Hey Dallas, is it time to point out that I never said I did BP/Release and that your whole argument fails? Your ENTIRE argument fails completely.


Who is the idiot who still thinks I said Hver beats Ukon in a thread where I specifically point out that buffs destroy pet jobs?

[Razushu]

Amazing you attribute all that damage to WAR, not the SMN, DNC, or BRD who provided the buffs.

Oh so now you're accepting that buffs contribute to damage, this is good. This is progress.

[Korpg]

Who is the idiot who still thinks I said Hver beats Ukon in a thread where I specifically point out that buffs destroy pet jobs?

How many days after you state that Hver beats Ukon did it take for you to say that?

[Razushu]

Who is the idiot who still thinks I said Hver beats Ukon in a thread where I specifically point out that buffs destroy pet jobs?

You LITERALLY said that, he posted the links to the posts where you say it.

[Byrth]

If we attribute damage increases from buffs to the buffers, how do we determine who gets to "have given" the last 15% Haste? Furthermore, if you remove the DD from the party the efficacy of the buffs diminishes dramatically. It's a stupid point, but I'm pretty sure he has just been trolling this entire thread. No one could really be that dumb.

[Dallas]

You LITERALLY said that, he posted the links to the posts where you say it.

You literally should keep reading, Korpg is the worst reader on the planet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If we attribute damage increases from buffs to the buffers, how do we determine who gets to "have given" the last 15% Haste? Furthermore, if you remove the DD from the party the efficacy of the buffs diminishes dramatically. It's a stupid point, but I'm pretty sure he has just been trolling this entire thread. No one could really be that dumb.

I lost faith in humanity a long time ago so yes I can believe someone could be that dumb.

[Korpg]

You literally should keep reading, Korpg is the worst reader on the planet.

I'm the worst reader because I disagree with you?

[Razushu]

If we attribute damage increases from buffs to the buffers, how do we determine who gets to "have given" the last 15% Haste? Furthermore, if you remove the DD from the party the efficacy of the buffs diminishes dramatically. It's a stupid point, but I'm pretty sure he has just been trolling this entire thread. No one could really be that dumb.

My apologies i may have been unclear yes it's the melees that do the damage but the buffs they recieve will increase it. So in that respect buffs= overall damage output increase not trying to say "screw you melee's without buffs you're nothing

[Dallas]

If we attribute damage increases from buffs to the buffers, how do we determine who gets to "have given" the last 15% Haste? Furthermore, if you remove the DD from the party the efficacy of the buffs diminishes dramatically. It's a stupid point, but I'm pretty sure he has just been trolling this entire thread. No one could really be that dumb.

So, the only buffing/healing job that has to deal as much job as the Ukon WAR is the SMN? You have BG stink on you, so you are at a disadvantage here.

[Korpg]

It's a stupid point, but I'm pretty sure he has just been trolling this entire thread. No one could really be that dumb.

You know, we probably all have been successfully trolled then.

But you know what, I had fun still. Would do it again in a heartbeat.

[Razushu]

So, the only buffing/healing job that has to deal as much job as the Ukon WAR is the SMN? You have BG stink on you, so you are at a disadvantage here.

I'm sure this isn't an attack on SMN melee specifically, If you were SCH, BLM etc. he'd be making the same point

[Korpg]

So, the only buffing/healing job that has to deal as much job as the Ukon WAR is the SMN? You have BG stink on you, so you are at a disadvantage here.

At least he was kind enough to give you proof that you are wrong without saying you are an idiot and leave it there.

You should be thankful.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Holy shit you are thick, The 'other' buffing/healing jobs aren't meleeing if it's a detriment to their roles, yet you claim your melee is somehow worthwhile enough that you meleeing the mob is more worthwhile than you staying out of range and not eating resources from taking TP moves/spells/being in range of Aoe debuffs versus staying back and supporting/healing the party. No one cares if you melee weak mobs, knock yourself out.

[Dallas]

I'm sure this isn't an attack on SMN melee specifically, If you were SCH, BLM etc. he'd be making the same point

No one is talking about your playstyle. Wonder why.

[Dallas]

Holy shit you are thick, The 'other' buffing/healing jobs aren't meleeing if it's a detriment to their roles, yet you claim your melee is somehow worthwhile enough that you meleeing the mob is more worthwhile than you staying out of range and not eating resources from taking TP moves/spells/being in range of Aoe debuffs versus staying back and supporting/healing the party. No one cares if you melee weak mobs, knock yourself out.

The party setup was implicitly stated: SMN WAR DNC BRD WHM ???

The target was stated too.

At least 3 jobs and a pet are meleeing. This is not a dangerous mob.

[Razushu]

No one is talking about your playstyle. Wonder why.

Because it's an accepted and useful playstyle that most of the game population understand nowadays. Theres really no need to talk about it kinda like BLM nuking or WHM healing

[Korpg]

No one is talking about your playstyle. Wonder why.

Nobody was stating that they excel at something where it was obvious they weren't, and then calling others lazy/gimp/weak fro calling them out on the truth.

[Dallas]

Because it's an accepted and useful playstyle that most of the game population understand nowadays. Theres really no need to talk about it kinda like BLM nuking or WHM healing

Did Byrth say "buff cycle from SMN" in his list of BG-approved SMN uses? Nope, most of the game population does not recognize you like a BLM nuking or WHM healing.

[TybudX]

No one is talking about your playstyle. Wonder why.

Hint: He's not retarded.


Did Byrth say "buff cycle from SMN" in his list of BG-approved SMN uses? Nope, most of the game population does not recognize you like a BLM nuking or WHM healing.

There are only 6 slots in a party, and 3 parties in an alliance. SMN has to earn it's spot over other jobs. It's clearly not a good DD, and aside from a few situational buffs it's not good at party support, either. If only there weren't better strategies out there, maybe SMN would finally get some recognition!

[Alhanelem]

Did Byrth say "buff cycle from SMN" in his list of BG-approved SMN uses? Nope, most of the game population does not recognize you like a BLM nuking or WHM healing.
[sarcasm\Because BG = most of the game[/sarcasm]

[Razushu]

Did Byrth say "buff cycle from SMN" in his list of BG-approved SMN uses? Nope, most of the game population does not recognize you like a BLM nuking or WHM healing.

I said MOST. By my own experience having never once been told to heal or GTFO tells me you're wrong. Even in pick ups I find myself put in a party that will benefit much from my buffs so everyone I encounter seems to know of SMN support and its uses or this wouldn't be the case.

[Dallas]

Hint: He's not retarded.

If only 100 out of 400 damage is attributable to an unhasted avatar, melee SMN is the best playstyle for SMN by miles.

Raz, you begged to have a number. You have one. You are 1/10th a WAR.

[Greatguardian]

Assuming that SMN is eating RCB, and getting Haste, Marchx2, and Haste Samba, yes. And it's 150/400.

[Alhanelem]

If only 100 out of 400 damage is attributable to an unhasted avatar, melee SMN is the best playstyle for SMN by miles.

Only if raw damage is what you're trying to do. Support styles are still just as beneficial in various circumstances.

[Dallas]

Only if raw damage is what you're trying to do. Support styles are still just as beneficial in various circumstances.

I specifically pointed that out. BG says "not for SMN."

GG, the extra damage was assumed to be from a hasted pet. A buff cycler isn't buffing their pet.

[Razushu]

If only 100 out of 400 damage is attributable to an unhasted avatar, melee SMN is the best playstyle for SMN by miles.

Raz, you begged to have a number. You have one. You are 1/10th a WAR.

I'd rather be 1/10th a WAR while supporting the party and overall improving it's performance than 1/3 a WAR and that be my dedicated role

[Alhanelem]

I specifically pointed that out. BG says "not for SMN."
In case you haven't figured it out after 24 pages (at 20 posts per page), we don't care what BG says.

[Dallas]

I'd rather be 1/10th a WAR while supporting the party and overall improving it's performance than <1/3 a WAR and that be my dedicated role

Specifically REMOVE the SMN, and you remove the last 15% haste. Only a SMN is going to haste Garuda.

Al, Byrth is BG's liason.

[TybudX]

I'd rather have a WHM who can Haste everybody and keep them alive, but hey, you showed up on melee SMN. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[Razushu]

Specifically REMOVE the SMN, and you remove the last 15% haste. Only a SMN is going to haste Garuda.

Al, Byrth is BG's liason.

If you remove the SMN you remove the Garuda. Only a SMN is going to summon Garuda.

[TybudX]

If only 100 out of 400 damage is attributable to an unhasted avatar, melee SMN is the best playstyle for SMN by miles.

In which case, replace all melee SMN with real DDs. Problem solved.

[Dallas]

If you remove the SMN you remove the Garuda. Only a SMN is going to summon Garuda.

For you, that's only 100 out of 400. You've already chosen to remove 75% of SMN.

Ty, unless it's a Ukon WAR, you need more math. Korpg was all excited about a Byakko's Axe WAR. Go for it!

[Razushu]

I'd rather have a WHM who can Haste everybody and keep them alive, but hey, you showed up on melee SMN. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

At 75 my SMN could easily replace a WHM on anything that didn't specifally require something from WHM, like Stona. Nowadays nobody would invite a SMN to main heal, the invites I get are for DD/buffs/support which I can provide all 3 decently a any given time

[Byrth]

? What?

If you're going to make a serious melee party, you're going to bring a BRD/WHM. If you have a BRD/WHM, Hastega isn't an issue. If Hastega isn't an issue and you're using Predator claws, you don't contribute any buffs at all. Even if you're pulling out Ifrit and giving Double Attack or something (but giving up Predator Claws), your buffs are totally negligible compared to the advantages WAR has over you that I totally negated in my comparison. (Double Attack, Berserk, Blood Rage, Crit damage trait, base stats, weapon skill, gear). Heck, Blood Rage and Warcry probably make Warrior a better buffer than you in a melee party.

Also, the argument isn't "Oh man, I have a Summoner in the melee party getting melee buffs. Should he melee or not?"
The argument is, "I'm making a melee party, should I bring a Summoner?"

[Razushu]

For you, that's only 100 out of 400. You've already chosen to remove 75% of SMN.

No you've replaced 75% of SMN with melee. We aren't a DD class, as a DD we're very replacable but as a support class we hold our own nicely

[Razushu]

? What?

If you're going to make a serious melee party, you're going to bring a BRD/WHM. If you have a BRD/WHM, Hastega isn't an issue. If Hastega isn't an issue and you're using Predator claws, you don't contribute any buffs at all. Even if you're pulling out Ifrit and giving Double Attack or something (but giving up Predator Claws), your buffs are totally negligible compared to the advantages WAR has over you that I totally negated in my comparison. (Double Attack, Berserk, Blood Rage, Crit damage trait, base stats, weapon skill, gear). Heck, Blood Rage and Warcry probably make Warrior a better buffer than you in a melee party.

Also, the argument isn't "Oh man, I have a Summoner in the melee party getting melee buffs. Should he melee or not?"
The argument is, "I'm making a melee party, should I bring a Summoner?"

I've been in melee parties and easily validated my place there with my mix of buffs, DD and support

[Alhanelem]

In which case, replace all melee SMN with real DDs. Problem solved.
If you're an elitist jerk, yes. Otherwise, nobody cares.

[Byrth]

I've been in melee parties and easily validated my place there with my mix of buffs, DD and support

Well, realistically if your party didn't have a Bard, you would have been better off as a Bard. I wasn't replying to your post directly above it though. I just post slow, haha.

[Razushu]

Well, realistically if your party didn't have a Bard, you would have been better off as a Bard. I wasn't replying to your post directly above it though. I just post slow, haha.

lol I think thats twice you've caught me like that. I'm not saying the buffs I give are as good as a BRDs but they're still useful and I can put more than 2 on a player at once and I add damage to the mix. This the people I play with seem to find a reasonable trade off

[Dallas]

If you're going to make a serious melee party

... which no one does anymore.

The party setup is currently: MNK, WHM, WAR (naked for procs), BLM (naked for procs), THF, ???

No buffs. That multitasking SMN looks pretty effin' good. Maybe we can get GG to throw some unbuffed epeen numbers. Probably not, we want Ukon!

[TybudX]

If you're an elitist jerk, yes. Otherwise, nobody cares.

If you want the slot, you need to be worth it. BRD, WHM, COR, are all better doing party buffs than SMN. It's been said many times, the only thing SMN excels at right now is EA, PD, and mobs that you can't put melee DDs on. If your only goal is to show up, good on you. That doesn't make it worthwhile.

[Razushu]

If you want the slot, you need to be worth it. BRD, WHM, COR, are all better doing party buffs than SMN. It's been said many times, the only thing SMN excels at right now is EA, PD, and mobs that you can't put melee DDs on. If your only goal is to show up, good on you. That doesn't make it worthwhile.

our Buffs aren't as strong as a BRDs but we can apply more than them. Never really partied with a Cor but from what I've read I'd confidently state we'd hold our own seeing as they can either DD/Buff or Buff/Support(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only going on what I've heard/been told), where as we can perform all 3. WHM is gonna be there to main heal anyway so we're not competing with them for slots, but if we were(as a support not main heal) they bring barelements, strong pro/shell, less efficent haste more regen +10 sublte blow. SMN brings most of the bars(admittedly from /whm), more efficent haste, lower tier pro/shell and regen but a wider range of buffs.

[Aurara]

COR can do melee/melee and mage/mage rolls if they dont suck. The buffs cor gives are also>anything smn can give, just giving you insight!

[Greatguardian]

How many of SMN's BP: Wards are actually useful, though? Keep in mind, WHM can Stoneskinga too. Hastega is only more MP efficient for the mage itself. It has no effect on the party, as both mages can keep Haste on everyone either way. As long as WHM isn't running out of MP, and everyone has Haste fulltime, the MP efficiency of Hastega means effectively nothing.

[Sparthos]

How many of SMN's BP: Wards are actually useful, though? Keep in mind, WHM can Stoneskinga too. Hastega is only more MP efficient for the mage itself. It has no effect on the party, as both mages can keep Haste on everyone either way. As long as WHM isn't running out of MP, and everyone has Haste fulltime, the MP efficiency of Hastega means effectively nothing.

Barring Hastega, the useful wards are:

Dream Shroud
Spring Water
Whispering Wind
Tidal Roar
Earthen Armor
Diamond Storm
Healing Ruby II

Situational:
Sleepga
Fleet Wind

[Korpg]

How many of SMN's BP: Wards are actually useful, though? Keep in mind, WHM can Stoneskinga too. Hastega is only more MP efficient for the mage itself. It has no effect on the party, as both mages can keep Haste on everyone either way. As long as WHM isn't running out of MP, and everyone has Haste fulltime, the MP efficiency of Hastega means effectively nothing.

Well, Evasive Down, Evasive/Accuracy Down, Phalanx (I know, it sucks, but still), MAB/MDB, and Earthen Armor are all good buffs.

[TybudX]

our Buffs aren't as strong as a BRDs but we can apply more than them. Never really partied with a Cor but from what I've read I'd confidently state we'd hold our own seeing as they can either DD/Buff or Buff/Support(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only going on what I've heard/been told), where as we can perform all 3.

COR buffs are about on par with a BRD, and that's just rolls. They can reset JAs every 15 minutes (any fight you would even need a full party for). They have QD, which is zero TP to mob as well as augmenting elemental damage of the same type by 20% for 15 seconds. Even before af3 feet COR's were monsters at certain HNM (hint: the sameone's you would want a SMN on) because QD damage is that good. They also have decent ranged damage if they need to stay out of melee, an Empyrean that doesn't suck, and a WS that is pretty good even outside Abyssea. That's not even counting what support job they come on yet. Yes, I would pick a COR over a SMN as long as I don't need EA or PD. I would rather have strong buffs and good damage instead of ok buffs and poor damage.

[Razushu]

COR can do melee/melee and mage/mage rolls if they dont suck. The buffs cor gives are also>anything smn can give, just giving you insight!

Thought so It's kinda like BRD with a cooler hat, but SMN still holds it's own when you add the extra DD+support or I'd not be accepted time and again to perform this role(just my opinion based on personal experience)

[Greatguardian]

In all fairness, if we're talking about pickup groups, most will accept anything with a pulse so that's not saying much for anyone.

[Razushu]

Barring Hastega, the useful wards are:

Dream Shroud
Spring Water
Whispering Wind
Tidal Roar
Earthen Armor
Diamond Storm
Healing Ruby II

Situational:
Sleepga
Fleet Wind

Don't forget Inferno howl

and situationally

Ecliptic growl/howl

[Razushu]

COR buffs are about on par with a BRD, and that's just rolls. They can reset JAs every 15 minutes (any fight you would even need a full party for). They have QD, which is zero TP to mob as well as augmenting elemental damage of the same type by 20% for 15 seconds. Even before af3 feet COR's were monsters at certain HNM (hint: the sameone's you would want a SMN on) because QD damage is that good. They also have decent ranged damage if they need to stay out of melee, an Empyrean that doesn't suck, and a WS that is pretty good even outside Abyssea. That's not even counting what support job they come on yet. Yes, I would pick a COR over a SMN as long as I don't need EA or PD. I would rather have strong buffs and good damage instead of ok buffs and poor damage.

I wouldn't call my Damage poor outside abyssea even or my buffs just ok, I'm not trying to say I'm better than BRD or COR just that this is the role I get called on to play as SMN and I perform well enough that no one has ever kicked me or said I should level BRD or COR.

[Alhanelem]

Barring Hastega, the useful wards are:

Dream Shroud
Spring Water
Whispering Wind
Tidal Roar
Earthen Armor
Diamond Storm
Healing Ruby II

Situational:
Sleepga
Fleet Wind
Ifrit's enfire belongs on there.