Can we get a different negative effect from Retaliation please(/hates moving slow ><)

[kingfury]

I understand that it's technically a "stance-like" ability and all that, but can we please swap the "decreased movement speed" with something else? I personally hate taking Retaliation off just to efficiently move to the next near by enemy or area ><;

Perhaps something we won't miss like "Reduces parrying activation rate" or "Reduces VIT"? I just want my movement speed back without having to take off Retaliation! ^^

Thanks for listening Devs /salute

[Leonlionheart]

I don't like moving slow, but I suck it up.

I'd rather substitute something truly useless instead of losing out on something that might get me killed.

[kingfury]

I don't like moving slow, but I suck it up.
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Yeah, but rather than sucking it up, which is what we all have to do currently lol, how about a nice swap!


I'd rather substitute something truly useless instead of losing out on something that might get me killed.
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Agreed... but... you don't depend on Parrying for survival in battle do you? o.o

[Kyrial]

Yeah, parrying rate I wouldn't mind... but VIT I sure would.

[Leonlionheart]

trade off: 5% parrying (which is floor, and I doubt WAR can get higher than that) VS retaliation hits for 1000

...

that's fair

[kingfury]

Yeah, parrying rate I wouldn't mind... but VIT I sure would.
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^^ I just tossed VIT out there, it could be anything else we wouldn't miss. But really, what WAR is lacking in the VIT department enough so that they would miss a light reduction of say 15-20pts? If you're worried about hits, -PDT is the way to go yeah?

[hiko]

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Yeah, but rather than sucking it up, which is what we all have to do currently lol, how about a nice swap!


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Agreed... but... you don't depend on Parrying for survival in battle do you? o.o

reducing parrying rate would buff retaliate (parry less= get hit more= retaliate more)

[kingfury]

True, but in terms of "beneficial" stuff, not getting hit from a successful parry is a good thing. Getting hit more, even if it in-directly helps Retaliation proc more, is still sorta on the bad list yeah? Most still wouldn't notice it enough to say, "Hey, I'm retaliating more all of a sudden" since parry only procs when pixy children are born... on sunny days... with Wind weather only.

At any rate, I wouldn't mind anything else, so long as it's not movement speed ><

Then again... why do we need a negative side to this JA at all?

[Leonlionheart]

Because its probably the best JA we have...

Seriously, without it I personally think that DRG would overtake the spot of top DD.

[kingfury]

But they get a Wyvern... o.o With magic spit and so on...

They would have to share some of WARs smexy JA's to reach that spot. Warrior's Charge, Blood Rage, Mighty Strikes, etc..

[Leonlionheart]

But they get a Wyvern... o.o With magic spit and so on...

They would have to share some of WARs smexy JA's to reach that spot. Warrior's Charge, Blood Rage, Mighty Strikes, etc..

Eh, new jumps make up for damage loss of not having blood rage since they (iirc) are 100% crit. warrior's charge is pretty bad in abyssea atm, and DRG's 2hr is compartive to if not better than mighty strikes (if no brd) since it will cause jumps to reduce def (without cap iirc) by 12% EACH.

Red Curry Buns and Angon make up for no berserk/warcry.

Drakesbane is better than all WS other than Ukko's and Jishnu's atm too.

[kingfury]

So your saying the only thing holding them back is Retaliation? Not DA, Critical hit boost, multiple ways to boost attack and dmg with JAs and such? I've actually never even seen a DRG use their 2hr... like ever. o.o

Maybe I've not had the honor of fighting along side some pimp DRGs is why I find this hard to believe. I've never seen a DRG out dmg me even when I was rockin RR only. I'd love to find a master DRG to compete with! :D

[Arcon]

Maybe I've not had the honor of fighting along side some pimp DRGs is why I find this hard to believe. I've never seen a DRG out dmg me even when I was rockin RR only. I'd love to find a master DRG to compete with! :D

WAR is very overpowered currently, which is why sometimes it may seem like DRG doesn't measure up. But it does, it's an exceptional DD, from my experience the second best (arguable inside Abyssea, since Monks can do somewhat ok damage there).

Retaliation boosts a WAR's normal damage by a great amount, even with just one mob hitting them. This amount is less significant, the more haste you have, without Haste it could be up to 60% damage boost (still with only one mob). And it makes things like FC burns or skillup burns possible, when otherwise it would be very infeasible.

Personally I absolutely hate the movement speed reduction. Nothing worse than that. The moment I could toss my Dusk Gloves was one of the happiest in my FFXI career. I can definitely understand the need for a negative effect, but this has always bugged me. It's a personal thing.

[Leonlionheart]

So your saying the only thing holding them back is Retaliation? Not DA, Critical hit boost, multiple ways to boost attack and dmg with JAs and such? I've actually never even seen a DRG use their 2hr... like ever. o.o

Maybe I've not had the honor of fighting along side some pimp DRGs is why I find this hard to believe. I've never seen a DRG out dmg me even when I was rockin RR only. I'd love to find a master DRG to compete with! :D

DRG 2hr is actually stupid powerful, but unfortunately it's only that great in one of those no brd situations and when you have a DNC.

Spirit Surge= 25% Magic Haste, release cooldown on Jumps, causes jumps to reduce defense by 12% each, stacking up to 24% and stacking with angon (IIRC). This means it basically caps your attack on anything if you use both jumps and angon.

Well, since DRG gets a bit of DA in gear the new auto crit jumps make up for the last 15% WAR has over them. DRG is also more capable of a lower xhit considering they have more access to stp gear over WAR.

In the end if a DRG is using Angon it will probably match WAR's Berserk and Warcry, meaning the only thign WAR has over DRG is Blood Rage and Crit Hit bonus, which is big in abyssea, not so big outside. In some way the wyvern makes up for this, however the fact that DRG's empyrean weapon sucks makes it a far and away competition if the DRG doesn't have Ryunohige. But in that case, WAR is a far and away competition in every way anyway.

[kingfury]

WAR is very overpowered currently, which is why sometimes it may seem like DRG doesn't measure up. But it does, it's an exceptional DD, from my experience the second best (arguable inside Abyssea, since Monks can do somewhat ok damage there).

Retaliation boosts a WAR's normal damage by a great amount, even with just one mob hitting them. This amount is less significant, the more haste you have, without Haste it could be up to 60% damage boost (still with only one mob). And it makes things like FC burns or skillup burns possible, when otherwise it would be very infeasible.
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Yeah, I wouldn't dare say that DRG's aren't capable of dishing out some mean dmg, because I have been impressed in the past with what I've seen some LS members produce while on the job. Still, I've only seen decked out DRGs in passing, and have never got the chance to see what those career types can really do.


Personally I absolutely hate the movement speed reduction. Nothing worse than that. The moment I could toss my Dusk Gloves was one of the happiest in my FFXI career. I can definitely understand the need for a negative effect, but this has always bugged me. It's a personal thing.
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For me being a Galka, the slow movement speed is almost always ammo for my party members to crack "Fat boy" jokes lol >< But seriously, there has to be another stat that can take movement speeds place! ><

[Habiki]

True, but in terms of "beneficial" stuff, not getting hit from a successful parry is a good thing. Getting hit more, even if it in-directly helps Retaliation proc more, is still sorta on the bad list yeah? Most still wouldn't notice it enough to say, "Hey, I'm retaliating more all of a sudden" since parry only procs when pixy children are born... on sunny days... with Wind weather only.

At any rate, I wouldn't mind anything else, so long as it's not movement speed ><

Then again... why do we need a negative side to this JA at all?

How about they switch the movement speed down effect with -30% crit hit rate since it doesn't matter to the op as long as its not movement speed down.

The negative is balanced. If anything they need to change it to something that gimps war a little bit as it stands warrior is completly overpowered.

[kingfury]

How about they switch the movement speed down effect with -30% crit hit rate since it doesn't matter to the op as long as its not movement speed down.

The negative is balanced. If anything they need to change it to something that gimps war a little bit as it stands warrior is completly overpowered.
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Ugh. Where are you from, the PUP side of things? Why are you posting in WAR threads? Never mind. Please don't respond. I don't feel like going back and forth with ya. I'm tired of post like these.

wth are you talking about "The negative is balanced." Balanced how? Based on what? Ughh ><

[hiko]

it's balanced in the way that it "annoy" people!

i don't mind the -30%crit rate on retalliation (because I use war for cleave)


Then again... why do we need a negative side to this JA at all?
agree, remove retaliate negative side.
but remove also hasso/ seigan, counterstance, yonin/inin negatives!!

[Arcon]

wth are you talking about "The negative is balanced." Balanced how? Based on what? Ughh ><

There's a lot of abilities that offer certain trade-offs. Zergressor is another WAR example. And I don't really see anything wrong with it, sacrificing one thing for another. I just find movement speed reduction horribly annoying. I'd trade it for Attack Down for example.

[kingfury]

it's balanced in the way that it "annoy" people!

i don't mind the -30%crit rate on retalliation (because I use war for cleave)


agree, remove retaliate negative side.
but remove also hasso/ seigan, counterstance, yonin/inin negatives!!
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/Kingfury gives Hiko a Highfive! Except for the -30%Crit part, ‹Yes Please!› lol

[kingfury]

There's a lot of abilities that offer certain trade-offs. Zergressor is another WAR example. And I don't really see anything wrong with it, sacrificing one thing for another. I just find movement speed reduction horribly annoying. I'd trade it for Attack Down for example.
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Right, and I'm all fine with a trade-off from using Retaliation, but great Altana's jiblets let it be something other than reduced movement speed!

Attack down I could live with too, /agreed.

[Leonlionheart]

it's balanced in the way that it "annoy" people!

i don't mind the -30%crit rate on retalliation (because I use war for cleave)


agree, remove retaliate negative side.
but remove also hasso/ seigan, counterstance, yonin/inin negatives!!

>:| -30% crit rate are you crazy? Retaliation crits have gone up to 1.2k for me, so you crezy.

Honestly movement speed is only slightly annoying for me, because I'm generally running in front of people anyway and have to wait wherever I go in the first place.

[Mirage]

I'd rather have reduced movement speed than losing other stats that would normally help me stay alive. Unless you want to make the downside something that doesn't actually matter for wars, but then it's also gonna turn out imba.

[Leonlionheart]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

On a side note though: I wouldn't be surprised if SE did give Retaliation hits Attack Down because as it stands right now Retaliation is probably one of the most powerful abilities in the game, surpassing many 2 hours.

It would appear that you can even retaliate during the 2 second delay of an animation, which is probably why you can get 100% TP before Ukko's Fury ends.

I forsee some gimping of it, but I don't think it'll be something we want.

[Arcon]

It would appear that you can even retaliate during the 2 second delay of an animation, which is probably why you can get 100% TP before Ukko's Fury ends.

Indeed, Retaliation can process as long as the weapon is drawn, even if the JA delay is active. Same goes for WS delay or even during a ranged attack (which won't matter for most people, but it's a fun fact). During high Haste situations, the gap between WS and the next TP phase grows more and more relevant; 2 seconds during the animation at 0 Haste are less signifcant if it takes 1 minute to get to 100% than if it takes 10 seconds.

[Habiki]

>:| -30% crit rate are you crazy? Retaliation crits have gone up to 1.2k for me, so you crezy.

Honestly movement speed is only slightly annoying for me, because I'm generally running in front of people anyway and have to wait wherever I go in the first place.

Thats why I put -30 crit rate cause its crazy to think people would complain that they move a little slower while gaining the ability to gain tp superfast with retaliation, were lucky they removed the negative effect from restraint. Judging by the ops threads he just wants war to be the best job out there, and with ukko's fury they are atleast inside abyssea, so theres no need to complain about something as insignificant as movement speed down.

[kingfury]

Thats why I put -30 crit rate cause its crazy to think people would complain that they move a little slower while gaining the ability to gain tp superfast with retaliation, were lucky they removed the negative effect from restraint. Judging by the ops threads he just wants war to be the best job out there, and with ukko's fury they are atleast inside abyssea, so theres no need to complain about something as insignificant as movement speed down.
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WTH are you even talking about lol >< I'm asking to swap the negative effect with another dude. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Neisan_Quetz]

Compared to other possible negative effects (ref:Pre update restraint) Move speed is pretty negligible most of the time, if you need to move around alot just click it off.

[Gokku]

you know theres a very VERY simple solution its called "Hermes Sandles" look them up problem solved.

[kingfury]

Those cost too much... >.> lol

Do they negate the reduced movement speed completely? If so I'll consider getting me a pair.

[Alaik]

Retaliation is -12 and hermes are +12 so...

But yeah, SE should spend MORE time on WAR over other jobs. In fact I believe (and will argue pointless and at length) that berserk should be a 1 minute recast with 100% double attack tacked on. In light of this make Warrior's Charge an Octuple Attack. Make defender allow us to have 10% more enmity than everyone else and give us an invincible effect, after all we could still be hit by magic then! Oh, and dual wield great axes. Don't forget to put the 2H buff in twice for WARs though, one for each hand.

[Leonlionheart]

Retaliation is -12 and hermes are +12 so...

But yeah, SE should spend MORE time on WAR over other jobs. In fact I believe (and will argue pointless and at length) that berserk should be a 1 minute recast with 100% double attack tacked on. In light of this make Warrior's Charge an Octuple Attack. Make defender allow us to have 10% more enmity than everyone else and give us an invincible effect, after all we could still be hit by magic then! Oh, and dual wield great axes. Don't forget to put the 2H buff in twice for WARs though, one for each hand.

2 GA?! F that, we can hold one in our mouths too. 3 would be the only way to make war good

[kingfury]

Retaliation is -12 and hermes are +12 so...

But yeah, SE should spend MORE time on WAR over other jobs. In fact I believe (and will argue pointless and at length) that berserk should be a 1 minute recast with 100% double attack tacked on. In light of this make Warrior's Charge an Octuple Attack. Make defender allow us to have 10% more enmity than everyone else and give us an invincible effect, after all we could still be hit by magic then! Oh, and dual wield great axes. Don't forget to put the 2H buff in twice for WARs though, one for each hand.
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Psshht! Galka's can hold another GA with our tails!! Quadruple wield FTW! That, and you forgot the ability to fly. Flying would be a nice cherry on top.

[Esvedium]

You do know that you can just click it off if you're gonna be moving, right?

[Airget]

lol I think he pointed that out earlier though because of the 3 minute recast he's prolly reluctant to do it sinec he would have to wait to use it again. Personally I don't see the big deal about moving a tad slower, that's what provoke is for. And if you are using retaliation you should be provoking to have hate on the mob so rather then running to the mob have the mob come to you lol.