[dev1009] HNM's

[Xellith]

Make the HQ pop item from Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise at least a 75% drop rate.

This is all.

[Bumbeen]

I am annoyed when I see people posting demands instead of polite requests.

Also, please no. I like it how it is.

[Runespider]

I camped HNM for years and know how rare it was to fight them so although I would be ok with a slight increase I think the HQ needs to be a rare fight still. Infact if they did increase the drop rate I think they should increase the hq's level to at least 100 to offset it.

[RaenRyong]

People defending the drop rate: are you aware how terrible it is? If we assume it is 10% (and most estimate ~5%), you need on average

99 * 10 = 990 Kindred Seals for ONE HQ pop which can drop you just Dfeet/just Mbody/etc and no Black Belt item. If we assume it's 5%, which most people think is closer to the truth, 1980 Kindred Seals per HQ pop. Do you think that is anywhere near reasonable?

[Sparthos]

Why do they need to make HQs rare? I fail to understand this logic. It's like sense is completely detached from these responses.

Aspid/Nid/King Behemoth have had most of their drops obsoleted or alternatives so easy to obtain in Abyssea, there is no reason for these mobs to be special anymore.

It's ok for SE to make AF+2 a one-day venture (some of the most powerful bodypieces in the game btw) yet it's oh no, don't touch the rarity of my Nids bro.

The requirement to obtain 99 Kindred Seals alone is enough to make these NMs rare for the playerbase. The only logic for making these difficult to spawn is to somehow appease the masses who once dominated the mobs, attempting to reconcile the design choice of removing the timed nature of these mobs.

[Rie]

Ewwww, Raen mathing.

If HQ trigger item drops were to reflect what HQ King pops were before they changed it, it'd have to be around 20~25% or something. Although we all remember those day13 NQ turtles.

[RaenRyong]

My mathing is hot and you know it!

[Vold]

Why do they need to make HQs rare? I fail to understand this logic. It's like sense is completely detached from these responses.

Aspid/Nid/King Behemoth have had most of their drops obsoleted or alternatives so easy to obtain in Abyssea, there is no reason for these mobs to be special anymore.

It's ok for SE to make AF+2 a one-day venture (some of the most powerful bodypieces in the game btw) yet it's oh no, don't touch the rarity of my Nids bro.

The requirement to obtain 99 Kindred Seals alone is enough to make these NMs rare for the playerbase. The only logic for making these difficult to spawn is to somehow appease the masses who once dominated the mobs, attempting to reconcile the design choice of removing the timed nature of these mobs.

The gear may not be all that great anymore(even with augments that are supposed to make it in line with empyrean...Byakko's haidate gets some pretty damn good augments but because Empyrean set bonuses are so good you can't really afford to use the ole boy over Empy, and how many people aren't getting Empyrean? It just feels like a waste of dev and player time to bother with augments)but the pieces are still trophy pieces. The logic to keeping them rare is black belt at this point. SE gave us the so called "one day venture" empyrean gear. I think that was reconciliation enough for them. You can't really complain when you could technically as a hardcore player get +1 and +2 within mere hours. It's that easy with help.

[Korpg]

I think this was supposed to be more in line for Black Belt items.

Although, people probably have a better chance getting the Black Belt items from KS99 than HQ pops now.

[Sparthos]

The gear may not be all that great anymore(even with augments that are supposed to make it in line with empyrean...Byakko's haidate gets some pretty damn good augments but because Empyrean set bonuses are so good you can't really afford to use the ole boy over Empy, and how many people aren't getting Empyrean? It just feels like a waste of dev and player time to bother with augments)but the pieces are still trophy pieces. The logic to keeping them rare is black belt at this point. SE gave us the so called "one day venture" empyrean gear. I think that was reconciliation enough for them. You can't really complain when you could technically as a hardcore player get +1 and +2 within mere hours. It's that easy with help.

Even with the easiest settings - 100% rate on HQ off NQ - Black Belt would still take 297 Kindred Seals or more when you consider the new system upcoming. Sky drops have already been trivialized (as they should) and Byakko's Haidate was once a trophy item you can now get two of per Despot/Ulli. Makes sense given the superior options in Abyssea for half the classes on it.

When you make new content, you don't make older content harder just for the hell of it. Yes, Black Belt is great but so is Twilight Belt (for other classes) and the work there is composed of just beating Shinryu. 100% rate on a belt that puts AV's (yeah, that AV) Ninurta to bed.

The legwork to access Shinryu isn't even half what SE is asking for Black Belt.

Im not even saying 100% on HQ should be the standard but really it seems to me SE is going back to the old ways of arbitrary low rates for shoddy reasons. SE was fine with Twilight Belt as standard DD equipment yet we talk Black Belt and all of a sudden it's supposed to be a "trophy" and "rare".

Bollocks.

[RaenRyong]

I agree - Voidwatch having an awful reward system with tons of randomness and low drop rates signified a return to that trend to me too.

[PizzaTheHut]

You don't need a devtag in your thread title.

[Coldbrand]

YOU GUYS AREN'T HARDCORE IF YOU DON'T LIKE FARMING 1800+ SEALS FOR A CHANCE AT SOME ITEMS WHICH AREN'T EVEN GOOD UNTIL YOU GRIND AT SYNERGY TO CAP THEN AUGMENTED THEM OR A BELT WHICH SEVERAL PEOPLE WILL WIN FOR FREE NEXT MONTH! HURHUR.

[Bumbeen]

I just prefer it to be extremely annoying. Makes it a lot more fun when you get lucky.

[Xellith]

Id rather my game experiences be based on skill rather than luck. I find it more rewarding to put a strategy to work and succeed and get rewarded rather than grind over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and maybe get the droids I'm looking for.

[Alhanelem]

Black Belt would still take 297 Kindred Seals Because none of the 12-18 people you'll probably bring to a KSNM is going to bring an orb too.

And who doesn't have several hundred beastmen seals they could convert to kindreds for this?

[Coldbrand]

GIVE UP MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF GIL BECAUSE THE DEV TEAM DECIDED THAT ONLY 5 IN A HUNDRED PEOPLE SHOULD GET A CHANCE AT MAYBE GETTING AN ITEM OR ELSE YOU'RE A WHINY BABY

[Sparthos]

Because none of the 12-18 people you'll probably bring to a KSNM is going to bring an orb too.

And who doesn't have several hundred beastmen seals they could convert to kindreds for this?

You know that's besides the point right? It's just not about BB items moreso the idea that SE places such high value on items that are outdated or subject to being matched or outclassed by things that take a few days of effort.

What makes Kings so special other than the fact that at one time they were special mobs?

12-18 people for Ks99 is extremely ideal yet it doesn't matter. The rate on BB items is low for no reason other than "to preserve a trophy item". Funny BB is considered a trophy yet the Ninurta Sash (the best example) off AV was simply trounced via Twilight Belts 100% drop.

No problem there with annihilating the value of that item yet BB/King drops are special? Cmon.

[Bumbeen]

I don't have my egg yet and I would like a d.ring. ill give it a shot with the seals I have and if don't get tthen oh well no big loss. Sounds like some of you guys would like se to make d.ring actually obtainable without extreme luck. What is going to be left in the game that is rare or hard to obtain? Already relics are faster so now the real rarity is multiple relics. Another good trophy item would be dw mythic and relic .

[Bumbeen]

Id rather my game experiences be based on skill rather than luck. I find it more rewarding to put a strategy to work and succeed and get rewarded rather than grind over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and maybe get the droids I'm looking for.

Also bro. This is impossible in XI. XI is gear based, and even then 99 percent of the game can bbe done half naked. Crappy drop rates are the only wway to make trophy items in ffxi and it should be supported especially when said items aren't even necessary

[Leonlionheart]

GIVE UP MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF GIL BECAUSE THE DEV TEAM DECIDED THAT ONLY 5 IN A HUNDRED PEOPLE SHOULD GET A CHANCE AT MAYBE GETTING AN ITEM OR ELSE YOU'RE A WHINY BABY

why can't i just quote this and not say anything D:

[Anewie]

I agree with SPATHOS OR W.E

Keeping these mobs rare is stupid. Just decrease BB drop if it's that important.

All other drops besides dring (and even that) aren't even that useful anymore. I hate the logic of this stupid company.
LETS KEEP GIMP RELICS AND GIMP KING GEAR RARE AND HARD TO GET but make some incredibly overpowered, amazing weapons and armor ridiculously convienant and easy to obtain.

Seriously gtfo. Thats the main reason I quite. The logic of this company makes me wanna vomit. The gear is gimp so stop pretending you have any reason to hold these mobs/drops to any value. The only thing about it that's really a must have and amazing is black belt..

[Xellith]

I don't have my egg yet and I would like a d.ring. ill give it a shot with the seals I have and if don't get tthen oh well no big loss. Sounds like some of you guys would like se to make d.ring actually obtainable without extreme luck. What is going to be left in the game that is rare or hard to obtain? Already relics are faster so now the real rarity is multiple relics. Another good trophy item would be dw mythic and relic .

lolwut? Tonnes of LS have closed up shop and resort to low man farming because they simply dont have the members showing up all the time to help get currency. More relics? Bull.

[Bumbeen]

Exactly. They are low value so give them value as being rare instead.

[wish12oz]

People defending the drop rate: are you aware how terrible it is? If we assume it is 10% (and most estimate ~5%), you need on average

99 * 10 = 990 Kindred Seals for ONE HQ pop which can drop you just Dfeet/just Mbody/etc and no Black Belt item. If we assume it's 5%, which most people think is closer to the truth, 1980 Kindred Seals per HQ pop. Do you think that is anywhere near reasonable?

This sums up my feelings.
Wanting them to be rare is fine, but 5-10% drop rate is just way to low. 1000->2000 KS is just to much for any normal player to be expected to get, and that's just for a CHANCE that the HQ will even drop the piece you want from it.
In all honesty you will need to farm 2-3 HQ pops if you're trying to get a specific piece off of it, so 3000->6000 seals.
Or 20 if you want a d ring, which is 40,000 seals.

[Korpg]

This sums up my feelings.
Wanting them to be rare is fine, but 5-10% drop rate is just way to low. 1000->2000 KS is just to much for any normal player to be expected to get, and that's just for a CHANCE that the HQ will even drop the piece you want from it.
In all honesty you will need to farm 2-3 HQ pops if you're trying to get a specific piece off of it, so 3000->6000 seals.
Or 20 if you want a d ring, which is 40,000 seals.

On average, don't forget to add that.

[Hayward]

To be honest, I don't buy any of this garbage about keeping these types of items rare considering many of the same people were likely involved in the Salvage duping controversy some years ago. There's no logical reason now for Black Belt items to be kept so rare other than to placate so-called "hardcore" clowns who are so insecure about their "trophies" not having any meaning. It's way past time for S-E's developers to stop catering to these people's egos--not to mention their own--and give Monks a fair shot at completing this old quest.

[Bumbeen]

Black belt isn't rare nor is it supposed to be. Difficult quest sure, but it's no trophy item like d.ring.

[Raksha]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8554-HQ-king-triggers

How many of these threads are there gonna be? seriously.

[Xellith]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8554-HQ-king-triggers

How many of these threads are there gonna be? seriously.

as many as it takes.

[Alhanelem]

You know that's besides the point right? It's just not about BB items moreso the idea that SE places such high value on items that are outdated or subject to being matched or outclassed by things that take a few days of effort.

What makes Kings so special other than the fact that at one time they were special mobs?

12-18 people for Ks99 is extremely ideal yet it doesn't matter. The rate on BB items is low for no reason other than "to preserve a trophy item". Funny BB is considered a trophy yet the Ninurta Sash (the best example) off AV was simply trounced via Twilight Belts 100% drop.

No problem there with annihilating the value of that item yet BB/King drops are special? Cmon.
Am I msising something here? BB items hard to get? No, they're not.

[Raksha]

as many as it takes.

This is the answer I was looking for. Thumbs up.

[Sparthos]

Am I msising something here? BB items hard to get? No, they're not.

You're missing the part where more often than not it takes multiple runs of a Ks99 to get one BB item.

The part where nothing else in the Ks99 pool can be used to get help from others since the loot is obsolete.

The part where the NQ triggers put into the Ks99 pools are effectively useless (cept Fafnir) granted the drop rate on HQ triggers is terrible.

Oh and the part where SE makes things drop at a low rate simply for the sake of doing it.

[Bumbeen]

The low drop rate is there to keep everyone in the game from acquiring something. You could make it so an NPC tracks your group's KB kills and awards it to one person after 20 kills. But that would be boring, and you could never get lucky and impress your friends with your jp button.

[Alhanelem]

You're missing the part where more often than not it takes multiple runs of a Ks99 to get one BB item. You also get pop items for the regular NMs which means more chances to get the items. Black belt is stil basically THE most powerful non-weapon item for MNK. It SHOULD take some time to get. That said, if you take a group to do KS99s and at least a few of them bring an orb, you're probably going to get your item.It's not like crests/bst seals/k crests/k seals are that hard to get. Get some friends to come that don't want 'em and pool them to you.

[Raksha]

You also get pop items for the regular NMs which means more chances to get the items.


Regular NM doesnt drop black belt items anymore (that's what we like to call a nerf) and you only have a 8% chance (+/- 4%) WITH TH9+ to get an HQ pop, to pop a mob THAT NO LONGER HAS A 100% CHANCE TO DROP BB ITEM. (This was also a nerf)




Black belt is stil basically THE most powerful non-weapon item for MNK. It SHOULD take some time to get. That said, if you take a group to do KS99s and at least a few of them bring an orb, you're probably going to get your item.


This is mostly true (the parts that aren't opinions anyway) and has nothing whatsoever to do with the HQ pop drop rate.



It's not like crests/bst seals/k crests/k seals are that hard to get. Get some friends to come that don't want 'em and pool them to you.

I know you're still referring to black belt, but at the moment it takes more kindred seals to get a d.ring than it does alexandrite to get a mythic.

If you want to farm k.crest or h.k.crest instead then IT WILL TAKE FOUR TIMES AS MANY OF THOSE THAN IT TAKES ALEXANDRITE TO GET A MYTHIC.

[Bumbeen]

IT WILL TAKE FOUR TIMES AS MANY OF THOSE THAN IT TAKES ALEXANDRITE TO GET A MYTHIC.

Praise be to the glory of d.ring! Only the luckiest of the lucky will have one then. I will gambool my seals on it since it will be awesome town gear. Good thing that if I don't get super duper lucky it won't affect my performance at all.

Also here's to hoping this means that BB will remain the best waist piece for monk at 99. I remember they said that if they weren't going to replace BB they would make it more difficult to acquire... or something to that effect.

[Alhanelem]

If you want to farm k.crest or h.k.crest instead then IT WILL TAKE FOUR TIMES AS MANY OF THOSE THAN IT TAKES ALEXANDRITE TO GET A MYTHIC. Not exactly. If you're farming in original areas, you're getting kindred seals in addition to crests and beastmen seals.

And 30k seals? only if you have the worst luck of anyone in the entire universe.

[Raksha]

Not exactly. If you're farming in original areas, you're getting kindred seals in addition to crests and beastmen seals.

And 30k seals? only if you have the worst luck of anyone in the entire universe.

40,000 actually, but that was assuming a 5% drop rate on HQ king pop (our data shows ~8%).

Luck has nothing to do with it. The guy who gets it 1/1 is balanced out by the guy who goes 0/800.

The 40,000 number is a calculated average.

[Alhanelem]

umm... a calculated average of what? I'm not talking about HQ NM pops. I'm talking about the black belt items...

Anyway, we killed 3 Behemoths and got a KB pop. So there. :p

No D ring.

[Raksha]

umm... a calculated average of what? I'm not talking about HQ NM pops. I'm talking about the black belt items...

Anyway, we killed 3 Behemoths and got a KB pop. So there. :p

No D ring.

Oh, sorry I was talking about d.ring.

Average number of kindred seals required to obtain a d.ring.

5% drop rate on HQ pop (1/20) and 5% drop rate on d.ring (also 1/20) works out to be 1/20 * 1/20 = 1/400

400 orbs * 99 k.seals = 39,600 kindred seals.

Like I said though the drop rate with th9+ is closer to 8% so it'll take fewer than that.

[InspectorGadget]

I honestly couldnt care less what happens to HNM's from here on out since I pretty much got everything outside of the D. Ring a long time ago when everything was normal. But I have to say, after doing a few Behemoth KS99 runs and NQ's, that this system is absolutely the worst thing to happen to the game since the Ranger nerf in 2004. Pretty much put the nail in the coffin for linkshells that still enjoyed camping and killing HNMs.

---==[What they should have done (SE Devs, I hope you are reading this)]==---

What they should have done is keep the system the way it was with Fafnir/Nidhogg, Behemoth/King Behemoth, and Adamantoise/Aspidechlone being 21-24 hour timed spawn HNMs AS WELL AS having them poppable with the items they implemented (albeit at lower droprates, etc). That way everyone is happy. There's a saying "if it ain't broke, dont fix it", HNMs were not broke before the update, they very much are now because of it.

[Yarly]

I like it how it is.

Only because you have no intention of using the system.
I am annoyed when I see people posting like they think their opinions matter.

[Raksha]

There's a saying "if it ain't broke, dont fix it", HNMs were not broke before the update, they very much are now because of it.

They were broken before the update, everyone and their brother botted them.

Otherwise I agree with most of everything else you said.

[Malamasala]

And 30k seals? only if you have the worst luck of anyone in the entire universe.

That would be me, which is why I'm glad I'm not even bothering with D.ring for my Summoner. (Not really vital gear after all, even if it would be fun to have)

[Bumbeen]

Only because you have no intention of using the system.
I am annoyed when I see people posting like they think their opinions matter.

I don't have black belt or d. ring. I have to finish BB, and I would like d.ring. I still like it how it is. I'm quite happy they haven't turned either of those items into worthless accomplishments. BB still isn't difficult, but maybe it's a little better(as in harder to acquire) than it was before. And if d.ring is really as difficult as all the whiners in here are saying it is, it's going to be glorious if I somehow hit the jackpot when I start to burn my seals on horns of war.

[RaenRyong]

If you count an accomplishment as beating the random number generator (because that's all it is, neither the KSNM nor the fight are even remotely difficult) then... :X

[Bumbeen]

If you count an accomplishment as beating the random number generator (because that's all it is, neither the KSNM nor the fight are even remotely difficult) then... :X

Nothing in the game is remotely difficult(hyperbole, don't come trollin). Change "accomplishment" to whatever word you would like to use to describe doing something in FFXI. Either way, I'm glad they didn't make it so everyone can have a d.ring.

[RaenRyong]

Exactly, so they shouldn't just introduce arbitrary timesinks/luck factors to dictate rarity. The best gear should be awarded based on skill and the fact that FFXI doesn't is a great failing.

[Bumbeen]

Exactly, so they shouldn't just introduce arbitrary timesinks/luck factors to dictate rarity. The best gear should be awarded based on skill and the fact that FFXI doesn't is a great failing.

Do tell, how do you make something rare in a game that does not have a skill component?

[Alhanelem]

Claiming FFXI doesn't have a skill component tells me you don't have any skill nor do you understand what skill is.

[Bumbeen]

Claiming FFXI doesn't have a skill component tells me you don't have any skill nor do you understand what skill is.

Tell me what in FFXI requires skill my friend?

[Raksha]

Do tell, how do you make something rare in a game that does not have a skill component?

Add a skill component.

Next.

[Bumbeen]

Add a skill component.

Next.

Just to continue this discussion, I was thinking about that as well. How would you even add something that only 5% of the playerbase would be able to complete? You would have whatever rare item you wanted given for completing the skillful task, but what is stopping them from doing it for other people? It would have to be limited to a single person fight like the maat fight and be ra/ex.

But then there is also the problem of how can the development team gauge the difficulty of something for it to be only doable by 5% of the players? If they screwed up initially and half the players acquired the item then it's total failure.

It would obviously have to be limited to a single job as there's no way the dev team can balance jobs well enough to where more than 1 job can do it while at the same time limiting it to the very few capable players.

Surely there's something obvious I'm overlooking that would allow this to work flawlessly. Possibly they could have one of the GMs choose a player to give the item to every month, after said player has demonstrated extreme skill at FFXI for the past 6 months. That would allow 12 per year but then of course you'd need someone watching everyone play 24/7. Is there a metric in ffxi like KDR or could one be added that would be able to gauge players abilities?

I guess I should be asking, how does WoW do it? Do they even have items so rare like mythics and d.ring?

[Alhanelem]

Tell me what in FFXI requires skill my friend?
Pretty much everything? There's a clear difference between good and bad players and it's not just the gear they're wearing. It's their behavior. Sure, it can be argued that skill is less important these days with a buyable easy button, but skill makes things possible that wouldn't be otherwise.


I guess I should be asking, how does WoW do it? Do they even have items so rare like mythics and d.ring? Sure they do. There are tons of super rare items in the game, both that people care about and don't.

[Bumbeen]

Pretty much everything? There's a clear difference between good and bad players and it's not just the gear they're wearing. It's their behavior. Sure, it can be argued that skill is less important these days with a buyable easy button, but skill makes things possible that wouldn't be otherwise.

Well this is just a semantics issue then. I am not talking about morons that have no sense about the job they're playing vs people who take the time to learn. This is more of an intelligence thing.

The reason I say FFXI doesn't require skill, is because me, a couple of my buddies, and probably you can all play any particular job perfectly. We can DD perfectly, support perfectly, tank perfectly. And in games that do require skill in the sense I am saying this would never happen. Being #1 in an fps tourney, or a SF/tekken/what have you tourney requires skill. Hell, a lot of things really, actual racing, professional sports, texas hold'em, there is skill and talent there that clearly delineates a few "best" players. Whereas in FFXI, if we(the non-moron players) see a video of someone doing something, we can probably copy it exactly as done given the same character and equip.


Sure they do. There are tons of super rare items in the game, both that people care about and don't.
Though I do suppose WoW is a different game, and could in fact require skill and so that would be a fine basis for making equipment rare. I wouldn't know, I haven't played it very much.

[Raksha]

Just to continue this discussion, I was thinking about that as well. How would you even add something that only 5% of the playerbase would be able to complete? You would have whatever rare item you wanted given for completing the skillful task, but what is stopping them from doing it for other people? It would have to be limited to a single person fight like the maat fight and be ra/ex.


Why only 5%?

[Bumbeen]

Why only 5%?

Just arbitrary number. Could be 1% or 10%. I just can't figure out how you could limit something to such a small % without timesinking and horrible droprates.

[Sparthos]

Just arbitrary number. Could be 1% or 10%. I just can't figure out how you could limit something to such a small % without timesinking and horrible droprates.

Trying to ramp up difficulty will either end up in a monster that's gimmicky like AV or a marathon like PW.

Apademak and Pantokrator are both difficult enough mobs and could easily have been stand-alone HNMs outside Abyssea. They mix difficulty with timing and both punish poor play. Miss enough stuns and Apademak will retaliate in return and heal Pantokrator enough and he'll answer that with a 2hour ability.

The hardcore can lowman these while other players can team up in larger groups and still get a challenging monster.

That being said, SEs problem is always in implementation. The problem isn't difficulty as plenty of mobs have been challenging enough moreso than rewards are always spread out in the silliest of ways.

Take Voidwatch for instance as their newest event. The random nature intended to keep gear rare leads to the event itself being totally flawed. Instead of using a point system that could then be taken to an NPC for loot, you have the individual treasure system which more often than not gives someone a group they cant use and can't trade.

If SE wants to keep certain pieces "rare" that's fine but implement it better. They could easily just have tacked some trials onto Defending Ring if they felt the rarity of the item would be threatened by a 50% rate on getting KB from Behemoth.