[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Naix]

From the list:

Paladin

* The effect for the job ability Cover will be partially modified.
* The job ability Shield Bash will grant a damage bonus based on the type of shield used.
* The job ability Divine Emblem will grant a damage bonus based on the player's divine magic skill.


Thoughts? I fail how to see this will effect much of anything if I understand it correctly.

Cover to be effective will have to be overhauled, as opposed to partially modified. For starters, on the occassion I use this ability too often am I lined up what i feel to be 'correctly' and I don't cover anything.

Shield Bash doing more damage is nice, but I don't think you really worried about the damage it would deal anyways even with an Aegis, and would use it more for stun/hate purposes.

I often forget we have Divine Emblem to be honest, it really is an afterthought. Unless there is some hidden use for it I'm missing. So if I use Divine Emblem post update, I should expect to see a damage increase on Holy? If it's not monumental I think I'll just save that MP to use on a Cure4 thanks.

I realize PLD is a difficult job to fix, but the above suggested changes don't seem to do much of anything. These are more like 'tweaks' when PLD needs multiple 'overhauls'.

Thoughts?

[Nebo]

Yeah it seems like the only thing that has the potential to even resemble something useful is the cover adjustment. But we won't know what that is until they release the update notes I guess?

PLD seems like a really hard job for them to update. Of course not wanting to take the simple route of "Just increase PLD's DD potential." But the reality that lack of DMG output is really why DD's are better. They have great defensive options as well as great DD output. What sense does it make that the best DD's all have some really potent defenive JA's/Traits but PLD has no potent offensive JA's/Traits.

Maybe if they gave PLD a JA or Trait that gave a DMG taken increase effect to the monster when facing the PLD? Sort of like an "I'm distracting you so the DD's can hit all your weak parts" kind of gaze effect? Or something that allows PLD to enhace the DMG potential of the party enough to warrant not having a DD in its place? A significant boost in TP gain for Shield blocks?

[Naix]

Yeah it seems like the only thing that has the potential to even resemble something useful is the cover adjustment. But we won't know what that is until they release the update notes I guess?

PLD seems like a really hard job for them to update. Of course not wanting to take the simple route of "Just increase PLD's DD potential." But the reality that lack of DMG output is really why DD's are better. They have great defensive options as well as great DD output. What sense does it make that the best DD's all have some really potent defenive JA's/Traits but PLD has no potent offensive JA's/Traits.

Maybe if they gave PLD a JA or Trait that gave a DMG taken increase effect to the monster when facing the PLD? Sort of like an "I'm distracting you so the DD's can hit all your weak parts" kind of gaze effect? Or something that allows PLD to enhace the DMG potential of the party enough to warrant not having a DD in its place? A significant boost in TP gain for Shield blocks?

I wish I had an answer haha.

Ideally, you'd like to see PLD be able to tank without needing to resort to damage dealing; and anything you get out of them is a bonus. Otherwise it's just too similar to other classes. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a part for that in todays FFXI, nor possible.

Another idea i've seen thrown around was have them 'replace' the role of a whm. As opposed to say a WAR + a WHM duoing something, make it so a PLD + WAR could achieve the same goal. A mix of upping their cure potential/ability to keep hate or some jazz. I don't know how you do it without breaking the game/overpowering it, but I think that's the last niche you'll see.

If all else fails, then yeah I agree. Give them more offensive abilities. Every DD has a some form of defensive ability/trait, either it being through their main or their sj. The best PLD gets is /war? With berserk and double attack. You can make the damage per hit and ws average respectable, but the tp gain/rate of attack just doesn't come close to keeping up. If you go /nin and use double sword, I think you get away from what they envisioned with PLD, and that's using their shield.

Will be interesting to see what happens with PLD to say the least.

[Lazus]

I think it a step in the right direction but yea it still got a long way before they are excepted back in parties as anything more then filler atm.

[Cursed]

plds just need to be beneficial in a party/ally. its not hard to introduce stuff to the job that would achieve this.
give PLD stances. A magic defensive stance, physical defensive stance, enfeebling magic defensive stance, and make them ALL aoe. so that whichever mob you're fighting, if you have a PLD in your pt its going to be a MUCH easier fight.
Make these stances grant bonus to the PLD when used. Make them slow down enmity loss, or make them enhance other PLD job abilities, kinda like how iron will and guardian enhance rampart and sentinel.

quick example
Magic defensive stance - Reduces elemental damage taken for entire party and yourself and converts some of the magic dmg taken BY everyone to MP. Rampart and fealty recast reduced by 50% sentinel recast increased by 50%.

Physical defensive stance - reduce physical damage taken for entire party and yourself, converts some of the physical dmg taken by everyone to HP. sentinel and shield bash ecast time reduced by 50%, rampart recast time increased by 50%.

All stances should reduce enmity decay of PLD and increase enmity decay of party.

[Aeonk]

I wish I had an answer haha.

Ideally, you'd like to see PLD be able to tank without needing to resort to damage dealing; and anything you get out of them is a bonus. Otherwise it's just too similar to other classes. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a part for that in todays FFXI, nor possible.

Another idea i've seen thrown around was have them 'replace' the role of a whm. As opposed to say a WAR + a WHM duoing something, make it so a PLD + WAR could achieve the same goal. A mix of upping their cure potential/ability to keep hate or some jazz. I don't know how you do it without breaking the game/overpowering it, but I think that's the last niche you'll see.

If all else fails, then yeah I agree. Give them more offensive abilities. Every DD has a some form of defensive ability/trait, either it being through their main or their sj. The best PLD gets is /war? With berserk and double attack. You can make the damage per hit and ws average respectable, but the tp gain/rate of attack just doesn't come close to keeping up. If you go /nin and use double sword, I think you get away from what they envisioned with PLD, and that's using their shield.

Will be interesting to see what happens with PLD to say the least.
There's one thing I don't get.

PLD has always used dmg to tank. Atonement just made it mainstream. Now that that's gone, people seem to want some new gimmick or change in game mechanics to cement us in our rightful place... Why not just give us some natural traits/JA's that make dealing dmg easier? That way we can go back to tanking the way we've been tanking all along.

At this point I'd settle for Fencer naturally.

[Lazus]

There's one thing I don't get.

PLD has always used dmg to tank. Atonement just made it mainstream. Now that that's gone, people seem to want some new gimmick or change in game mechanics to cement us in our rightful place... Why not just give us some natural traits/JA's that make dealing dmg easier? That way we can go back to tanking the way we've been tanking all along.

At this point I'd settle for Fencer naturally.

I agree (and still no clue why atonement got such a nerf to begin with especially since dd can easily do well over 2k ws) looking at past ff games pld usually have been a good source of dmg and defense. Although if they would still need to balance pld as to not out do the dd, but a far as i can see it right now as long as you can get a dd that can hold hate and survive easy enough, even if you make it easier for pld to hold hate a dd will still be the chosen tank.

[Naix]

There's one thing I don't get.

PLD has always used dmg to tank. Atonement just made it mainstream. Now that that's gone, people seem to want some new gimmick or change in game mechanics to cement us in our rightful place... Why not just give us some natural traits/JA's that make dealing dmg easier? That way we can go back to tanking the way we've been tanking all along.

At this point I'd settle for Fencer naturally.

I don't know if I would say that 'we used damage to tank'; more then before it was more like 'we used damage to help supplement tanking abilities.'

You would never rely on a PLD to be the damage dealer. But the combo of cures/cure cheating/flashes/job abilities/damage dealing/damage mitigation would push a PLD to very high levels on the hate list.

Fast forward to today's FFXI and the majority of what I mentioned above no longer works, the only thing that does work is damage dealing. Every DD can do this at such a high level though and hence PLD has lost its spot.

Increasing the DD potential of a PLD might help... but if I wanted to play a DD then I would just hop on my DRK which is geared very well.

[Aeonk]

I don't know if I would say that 'we used damage to tank'; more then before it was more like 'we used damage to help supplement tanking abilities.'

You would never rely on a PLD to be the damage dealer. But the combo of cures/cure cheating/flashes/job abilities/damage dealing/damage mitigation would push a PLD to very high levels on the hate list.

Fast forward to today's FFXI and the majority of what I mentioned above no longer works, the only thing that does work is damage dealing. Every DD can do this at such a high level though and hence PLD has lost its spot.

Increasing the DD potential of a PLD might help... but if I wanted to play a DD then I would just hop on my DRK which is geared very well.
Should probably add the stipulation that all of the above that we used to rely on (cure cheats flash etc.) doesn't work inside abyssea. In there, damage dealing puts everything else on the back burner, so pushing PLD's DD potential inside abyssea would at least help it be relevant for other things besides red !!! flags.

That said, outside abyssea content (mainly VWNM's and some of the new mobs in dyna. about the only content that's not piss easy anymore) is where Flash and such are relevant again. In other words, PLD can actually tank them. But dealing dmg will still be one of the best hate tools in the game. For PLD, any damage buff is a buff that helps you hold hate over other DD's.

[Mordanthos]

The answer to your question about the ability you forgot, Divine Emblem. You asked what it can be used for, and I'll tell you. If you read the description on it, it mentions an increase enmity to the next divine spell cast. And let me tell you something that does REDICULOUS amounts of enmity when you need it in a pinch. Pop Divine Emblem and cast Flash, its Enmity gain is massive, and you will find yourself gaining threat back when you thought it was near impossible to achieve.

[Shaorin]

The answer to your question about the ability you forgot, Divine Emblem. You asked what it can be used for, and I'll tell you. If you read the description on it, it mentions an increase enmity to the next divine spell cast. And let me tell you something that does REDICULOUS amounts of enmity when you need it in a pinch. Pop Divine Emblem and cast Flash, its Enmity gain is massive, and you will find yourself gaining threat back when you thought it was near impossible to achieve.

Divine Emblem is useless. The recast timer is too long. If they shorten the recast to like 30s so I can use it every flash then it would be useful. With the damage output of a DD Tank generating their hate can easily out pace what you get with Divine Emblem+Flash. Example, NIN/WAR, with a NIN using Provoke and tossing out 2k Jins, the PLD will never hold hate as well the NIN with that once a 5 min Divine Emblem.

[Humie]

I know it wouldnt solve PLDs problems but it would sure help if we had provoke. We have seen all sorts of jobs get traits from other jobs that they have never gotten before.

Yet PLD still doesnt get the one ability designed to get hate or even a ability equal to provoke. Flash has a very slow recast with out full haste songs and sentinal is just to long of a rescast to be compared to provoke.

[Ralrra]

I know it wouldnt solve PLDs problems but it would sure help if we had provoke. We have seen all sorts of jobs get traits from other jobs that they have never gotten before.

Yet PLD still doesnt get the one ability designed to get hate or even a ability equal to provoke. Flash has a very slow recast with out full haste songs and sentinal is just to long of a rescast to be compared to provoke.
I think we were supposed to at one point.

Type "/recast Enrage" (w/o quotes) when you're on PLD main once. It shows up as [Enrage] --:--, which suggests to me that we are/were supposed to have some kind of Provoke-like ability.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Job Trait ideas - Max Enmity Bonus

They have a Max HP and Max MP Bonus, so why not do this for PLD? They mention raising the Enmity cap won't fix the current hate problem, but if a PLD can get 150% hate and every other job can only hit 100%, then there's a buffer there. The PLD still has to work to maintain that buffer, but as it is right now, I can toss out everything I have to hold hate from a MNK with capped Haste and not have a prayer to hold hate from them - especially inside Abyssea if they're using Razed Ruins.

I don't see why this can't be done to move PLD back to where it needs to be (and please, PLEASE don't tell me it should be a DD like DRK - it NEVER has been in any other FF game and was never intended to be in this one. If you want to be a DD, there are plenty of DD jobs out there to be).

[Zagen]

Job Trait ideas - Max Enmity Bonus

They have a Max HP and Max MP Bonus, so why not do this for PLD? They mention raising the Enmity cap won't fix the current hate problem, but if a PLD can get 150% hate and every other job can only hit 100%, then there's a buffer there. The PLD still has to work to maintain that buffer, but as it is right now, I can toss out everything I have to hold hate from a MNK with capped Haste and not have a prayer to hold hate from them - especially inside Abyssea if they're using Razed Ruins.

I don't see why this can't be done to move PLD back to where it needs to be (and please, PLEASE don't tell me it should be a DD like DRK - it NEVER has been in any other FF game and was never intended to be in this one. If you want to be a DD, there are plenty of DD jobs out there to be).

When you give the PLD higher hate amounts nothing in the game changes. A DD can A) cap hate, B) maintain it over mages, and C) kill the monster faster. Giving PLD a higher cap than any other player gives them A and B (which they can do already) but does nothing for C, since a DD can do A, B, and C all at once there still wouldn't be a need for PLD.

[Nebo]

The answer to your question about the ability you forgot, Divine Emblem. You asked what it can be used for, and I'll tell you. If you read the description on it, it mentions an increase enmity to the next divine spell cast. And let me tell you something that does REDICULOUS amounts of enmity when you need it in a pinch. Pop Divine Emblem and cast Flash, its Enmity gain is massive, and you will find yourself gaining threat back when you thought it was near impossible to achieve.

What does this have to do with the update?

[Dale]

From the list:

Paladin

* The effect for the job ability Cover will be partially modified.
* The job ability Shield Bash will grant a damage bonus based on the type of shield used.
* The job ability Divine Emblem will grant a damage bonus based on the player's divine magic skill.


Thoughts? I fail how to see this will effect much of anything if I understand it correctly.

Cover to be effective will have to be overhauled, as opposed to partially modified. For starters, on the occassion I use this ability too often am I lined up what i feel to be 'correctly' and I don't cover anything.

Shield Bash doing more damage is nice, but I don't think you really worried about the damage it would deal anyways even with an Aegis, and would use it more for stun/hate purposes.

I often forget we have Divine Emblem to be honest, it really is an afterthought. Unless there is some hidden use for it I'm missing. So if I use Divine Emblem post update, I should expect to see a damage increase on Holy? If it's not monumental I think I'll just save that MP to use on a Cure4 thanks.

I realize PLD is a difficult job to fix, but the above suggested changes don't seem to do much of anything. These are more like 'tweaks' when PLD needs multiple 'overhauls'.

Thoughts?

Paladins do not need "Fixing", as that implies they are broken, which they aren't. Nothing is perfect though and improvements are always possible.

My thoughts:

Not sure about the cover improvement, as it's too vague and have no clue what they are doing. "Partically modified" could mean almost anything. My hope is they make it automatically block attacks when you cover someone.

The shield bash change could be interesting, and will give paladins who want to focus on increasing their offense a new strategy utilizing different shields.

The divine emblem change sounds ok... God knows this ability deffinitely needs some improvement. For a 10 minute recast this ability just sucks, i don't care what anyone says. They should put the move on a 30 second recast, then it would be decent.

[Dale]

Divine Emblem is useless. The recast timer is too long. If they shorten the recast to like 30s so I can use it every flash then it would be useful. .

I agree with this guy.

[Dale]

When you give the PLD higher hate amounts nothing in the game changes. A DD can A) cap hate, B) maintain it over mages, and C) kill the monster faster. Giving PLD a higher cap than any other player gives them A and B (which they can do already) but does nothing for C, since a DD can do A, B, and C all at once there still wouldn't be a need for PLD.

/sigh

This argument manages to creep into every thread about paladin and it's getting old and it makes no sense.

Who cares if other more offense oriented tanks can kill faster than a Paladin. They have less defense, require more support - what's the problem?

That's like saying a red mage sucks at nuking cause black mages can kill things faster with nukes so a red mage's nukes are broken and need to be fixed. It's a silly argument. If you are in a group with another tank who is generating more enmity than you and managing to stay alive help support him instead of complaining about him. Use your white magic to heal him and back him up if he gets into trouble. There is more to a paladin than just "sponging" and just because you are not the main tank in a group doens't mean you are useless and have nothing else to do.

[Zagen]

Who cares if other more offense oriented tanks can kill faster than a Paladin. They have less defense, require more support - what's the problem?

Huh? My MNK needs a WHM for support my friend's NIN/WAR needs the same WHM for support. Guess what my PLD needs a WHM for support. How is that "more support" for the DDs?

When my DEF 71 MNK takes maybe 100 more damage than my 700 DEF PLD how is that DEF really matter when I'm countering 60-70% of the hits that my PLD is eating with a shield block if I'm lucky?


That's like saying a red mage sucks at nuking cause black mages can kill things faster with nukes so a red mage's nukes are broken and need to be fixed. It's a silly argument. If you are in a group with another tank who is generating more enmity than you and managing to stay alive help support him instead of complaining about him. Use your white magic to heal him and back him up if he gets into trouble. There is more to a paladin than just "sponging" and just because you are not the main tank in a group doens't mean you are useless and have nothing else to do.

If the RDM didn't offer Dia 2/3 for DEF Down, Slow II, Paralyze II, Addle, Help with Hastes, Refresh 2, a more effective stun due to faster recast then I'd agree RDM would be broken.

[Dale]

Huh? My MNK needs a WHM for support my friend's NIN/WAR needs the same WHM for support. Guess what my PLD needs a WHM for support. How is that "more support" for the DDs?

.

Oh God, you are one of those people who like to split up quotes, i should have known ; ;

I'll just answer you one at a time.

It depends on the situation. Lot of times a paladin won't even need a healer at all, as he can handle the healing himself, and i've yet to ever encounter a fight where I need a white mage, as my own heals combined with the lesser heals of say a red mage or even a dragoon are usually enough to keep me up. That's what i mean by they require less support, as a paladin brings healing to the table and other more offensive tanks do not.

You are just wrong that a paladin needs a white mage with him where ever he goes to surivive. They don't. Hell...i've seen dark knights tank without a white mage. If you need a white mage to support you against everything you fight then there is an issue there that has nothing to do with the paladin job.

[Dale]

If the RDM didn't offer Dia 2/3 for DEF Down, Slow II, Paralyze II, Addle, Help with Hastes, Refresh 2, a more effective stun due to faster recast then I'd agree RDM would be broken.

You are sidestepping your original point, which was you stating the paladin sucks at something just because another job can do it better. Even if Red Mage didn't have enfeebles, their nukes would still not suck. They are effective, rather a black mage can do it better or not - and that was my point.

[Zagen]

Oh God, you are one of those people who like to split up quotes, i should have known ; ;

I'll just answer you one at a time.

It depends on the situation. Lot of times a paladin won't even need a healer at all, as he can handle the healing himself, and i've yet to ever encounter a fight where I need a white mage, as my own heals combined with the lesser heals of say a red mage or even a dragoon are usually enough to keep me up. That's what i mean by they require less support, as a paladin brings healing to the table and other more offensive tanks do not.

You are just wrong that a paladin needs a white mage with him where ever he goes to surivive. They don't. Hell...i've seen dark knights tank without a white mage. If you need a white mage to support you against everything you fight then there is an issue there that has nothing to do with the paladin job.

I dunno point out a situation besides exploiting Ochain's block rate that a DD couldn't do what a PLD does without a healer.


You are sidestepping your original point, which was you stating the paladin sucks at something just because another job can do it better. Even if Red Mage didn't have enfeebles, their nukes would still not suck. They are effective, rather a black mage can do it better or not - and that was my point.
Why would you go with a job that can cast Blizzard IV when there is one that can cast Blizzard V and has better nuking gear available? I wouldn't. If I need enfeebles I go RDM, If I need nukes I go BLM its just that simple.

[Dale]

I dunno point out a situation besides exploiting Ochain's block rate that a DD couldn't do what a PLD does without a healer..

You would have to be more specific if you want me to give you specifics. When you say "DD" that means what exactly? What job combo? That could mean a lot of things...

I'll say this though:
The only way I can see the more offensive tanks compare to a paladin in this regard would be for them to sub dancer. However, doing this forces them to use their TP for cures intead of weapon skills, which is going to significantly reduce their offensive capablity. So it's basically a wash.

[Dale]

Why would you go with a job that can cast Blizzard IV when there is one that can cast Blizzard V and has better nuking gear available? I wouldn't. If I need enfeebles I go RDM, If I need nukes I go BLM its just that simple.

Bleh, as a Red Mage i can tell you I enjoy my nukes far more than my enfeebles, so naturally I disagree with your logic. Enfeebling is good on Rdm, but certainly doens't make or break the job - and to me in no way overshadows our other talents just because another job happens to have a higher tier on something. If all Red Mage had was his enfeebles, the job would seriously suck, and that's the glaring flaw in your obsessed with the best logic.

But in any case, we are getting off topic. The point was Red Mage nukes do not suck just because a Black Mage's nukes are better. That was the point. And it was a correct point.

[Greatguardian]

But in any case, we are getting off topic. The point was Red Mage nukes do not suck just because a Black Mage's nukes are better. That was the point. And it was a correct point.

noit'snot.

Do White Mage's nukes suck? Yes. Why?

Take a moment.

Think about it.

Why do White Mage's nukes suck?

Oh yeah, because every other job that can nuke can nuke significantly better. What other standard is there to judge White Mage's nuking ability? Can White Mage still Atma-load up and kill some EM-level mobs with nuke spam? Sure. Does that makes WHM nukes un-suck? Nupe. Why? Because an Atma-loaded BLM is going to do 10x as much damage per nuke.

The only measure by which to define how good or bad a job is is a comparison to other jobs. Is Paladin a good healer? Hell no. Why? Because other healers are significantly better. Other jobs have significantly better gear access, significantly better traits, and a significantly stronger MP pool/MP recovery.

Why does Paladin healing suck? Because other jobs do it better.

Why does Summoner DD suck? Because other jobs do it better.

When you set your global bar low enough that every job in the game can surpass it, sure, no one will suck and Paladin will be an exceptional healer because it can leap over junk tier standards. Sure, Summoner is an amazing DD because it can soar over the expectation that any damage = good damage.

If you want to have crappy standards, go right ahead. But you won't get anywhere trying to convince other people that jobs are good just because they meet your par. Some of us expect more.

[Kwate]

Because one job has a higher spell tier doesn't mean the other sux, I'm not going to argue I know everything about the game, but the logic is off. So an 85 emp weapon sux because there is a 90 available? A tier 4 sux because there is a tier 5? Of course the Tier 5 wins but tier 4 can hold its weight and a viable 2nd option, you could list it as average or above average but certainly doesn't suck.

[Greatguardian]

Did Fire 3 suck at 75?

Yes.

People just seem to think that even low-tier crap is okay because it's still better than what we were used to at 75 =/. Being better when we're 15 levels higher isn't a sign that something's good. It's just common sense. I'd be more worried if Blizzard IV was "suck" on a static scale, considering the whole static scale has been inflated to hell and back.

Relative scales are the only scales that mean jack squat.

[Aeonk]

Did Fire 3 suck at 75?

Yes.

People just seem to think that even low-tier crap is okay because it's still better than what we were used to at 75 =/. Being better when we're 15 levels higher isn't a sign that something's good. It's just common sense. I'd be more worried if Blizzard IV was "suck" on a static scale, considering the whole static scale has been inflated to hell and back.

Relative scales are the only scales that mean jack squat.
Relativity only means something on paper, because it operates under the assumption that both jobs are being played by equally skilled/geared players. The reality: That NEVER happens. And the rare times it does, it's because the player knows their shit. They could tank on BLM if you asked them to.

Example: DRK on paper is on the low end of the totem pole right now, right? Which do you prefer, a DRK that understands concepts like gear swapping for TP/WS, or a WAR with AH gear that fulltimes DEX rings?

The same applies to mage jobs (healers, nukers, etc.) and tanks as well.

So personally, I'll take a good player along with me to kill stuff, despite what job they're on. If that means my standards are low, I can live with that.

Edit: Good players may not be as rare as I make it sound, but there's a reason that pick up groups are generally avoided, and you know exactly why. For every good NIN, WAR or MNK, there are 15 terrible ones.

[Greatguardian]

Inherently flawed argument all around. You can't compare a good Paladin to a crappy full pink NIN. That doesn't say anything about the jobs. It just says one player is retarded and the other is not.

If you have a good player, putting them on Paladin will outdamage a full Aurore NIN, but putting them on Warrior will outdamage their own Paladin by a landslide while simultaneously making them significantly more useful.

Being a good player is not a free pass to make whatever the hell crap job someone wants to play seem sooper awesome just because they're better than absolute troglodytes.

[Dale]

noit'snot.

Do White Mage's nukes suck? Yes. Why?

Take a moment.

Think about it.

Why do White Mage's nukes suck?

Oh yeah, because every other job that can nuke can nuke significantly better. What other standard is there to judge White Mage's nuking ability? Can White Mage still Atma-load up and kill some EM-level mobs with nuke spam? Sure. Does that makes WHM nukes un-suck? Nupe. Why? Because an Atma-loaded BLM is going to do 10x as much damage per nuke.

The only measure by which to define how good or bad a job is is a comparison to other jobs. Is Paladin a good healer? Hell no. Why? Because other healers are significantly better. Other jobs have significantly better gear access, significantly better traits, and a significantly stronger MP pool/MP recovery.

Why does Paladin healing suck? Because other jobs do it better.

Why does Summoner DD suck? Because other jobs do it better.

When you set your global bar low enough that every job in the game can surpass it, sure, no one will suck and Paladin will be an exceptional healer because it can leap over junk tier standards. Sure, Summoner is an amazing DD because it can soar over the expectation that any damage = good damage.

If you want to have crappy standards, go right ahead. But you won't get anywhere trying to convince other people that jobs are good just because they meet your par. Some of us expect more.

Ok let me correct you.

White Mage nukes do not suck because other jobs can do better. White magic nukes suck because they do crap damage and aren't worth the mp to use. It has nothign to do with the fact other jobs can nuke better.

Same concept applies with Paladins. They aren't bad healers, and just because some jobs do a better job at it doens't mean they suck. These aren't crappy standards, they are reasonable standards. If something can get the job done, it doesn't suck. Period.

By your so called standards all nukes on the game suck but black mages. All heals on the game suck except white mages. I suppose all swords suck except almace and excaliber according to you. All shields suck cept Ochain and Aegis. There must be a lot of suckage in your life, since you see everything that isnt' the absolute best as the suck. It's a very limited and flawed way of looking at things.

[Dale]

Inherently flawed argument all around..

This describes your own posts perfectly.

[Zagen]

By your so called standards all nukes on the game suck but black mages. All heals on the game suck except white mages. I suppose all swords suck except almace and excaliber according to you. All shields suck cept Ochain and Aegis. There must be a lot of suckage in your life, since you see everything that isnt' the absolute best as the suck. It's a very limited and flawed way of looking at things.

You missed the point. Maybe this will make more sense to you. A BLM's IV nukes will do more damage than a RDM's because of the additional MAB and better nuke gear. Those factors make a RDM's nukes suck when compared to a BLM's nukes. When you add in higher tier version then it makes it much more obvious a RDM sucks as a nuker when a BLM is an alternative.

[Aeonk]

Inherently flawed argument all around. You can't compare a good Paladin to a crappy full pink NIN. That doesn't say anything about the jobs. It just says one player is retarded and the other is not.

If you have a good player, putting them on Paladin will outdamage a full Aurore NIN, but putting them on Warrior will outdamage their own Paladin by a landslide while simultaneously making them significantly more useful.

Being a good player is not a free pass to make whatever the hell crap job someone wants to play seem sooper awesome just because they're better than absolute troglodytes.
And if said good player doesn't have WAR leveled?

If you're good at this game, you can more than likely contribute to any situation that arises, despite whatever job you're on. Having bandwagon favorites leveled isn't a requirement.

[Dale]

You missed the point. Maybe this will make more sense to you. A BLM's IV nukes will do more damage than a RDM's because of the additional MAB and better nuke gear. Those factors make a RDM's nukes suck when compared to a BLM's nukes. When you add in higher tier version then it makes it much more obvious a RDM sucks as a nuker when a BLM is an alternative.

No I did not miss the point.

Red Mage nukes do not suck. They do excellent damage and can kill things.

The fact Black Mages have better nukes and can do more damage does not change this fact. It simply means they are better at nuking than Red Mages are. That doens't mean however that Red Mages suck at it. One does not equal the other.

[Zagen]

No I did not miss the point.

Red Mage nukes do not suck. They do excellent damage and can kill things.

The fact Black Mages have better nukes and can do more damage does not change this fact. It simply means they are better at nuking than Red Mages are. That doens't mean however that Red Mages suck at it. One does not equal the other.
Here's what Excellent means:
ex·cel·lent   [ek-suh-luhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
possessing outstanding quality or superior merit; remarkably good.
2.
Archaic . extraordinary; superior.

In other words when BLM is available by definitions a RDM's nukes can't be "Excellent".

[Dale]

Here's what Excellent means:
ex·cel·lent   [ek-suh-luhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
possessing outstanding quality or superior merit; remarkably good.
2.
Archaic . extraordinary; superior.

In other words when BLM is available by definitions a RDM's nukes can't be "Excellent".

Nope.

Even when i'm in a group with a black mage, I still consider my Red Mage nukes quite effective and enjoy using them. As stated before, just because someone can do something better than you doens't mean you automatically suck and are not worth using. Reading defintions out of dictionary doens't change this either.

[Greatguardian]

Effective compared to what?

Good compared to what?

Good because they do 2,500 damage?

Effective because enough of them will kill something in some arbitrary period of time?

White Mage nukes don't suck because they do 500 damage. They suck because they do 500 damage while Black Mage's do 5,000 damage.

White Mage nukes don't suck because they're unable to kill things with them. They suck because they take longer to kill with them than a Black Mage nuking would.

You keep saying "It's good", and "It's effective", but by whose standard? How good is it? How much is good enough? What do you consider good, and not good?

Frankly, I don't consider 3k Vorpals good at all when I can consistently do 5k Smites, both more often, and with significantly more TP phase damage in between.

Frankly, I don't consider 600MP, 20% Max Cure Potency, and Cure 1-4 good at all when I can do significantly better on any mage job.

Herp Bloody Freakin' Derp: Easy Content is So Easy that Anyone with Any Job can do it, QED: All jobs are awesome and Paladin is a boss tier Healer.

@Aeonk, That doesn't change the fact that the person would always be more useful and better on Warrior than they would on Paladin. A good player is a good player. A bad player is a bad player. A good job is a good job and a bad job is a bad job, for the situation at hand. In Abyssea? Paladin is utter crap and any good player running around on it is essentially an utter waste of potential.

[Dale]

Effective compared to what?

Good compared to what?

Good because they do 2,500 damage?

Effective because enough of them will kill something in some arbitrary period of time?

White Mage nukes don't suck because they do 500 damage. They suck because they do 500 damage while Black Mage's do 5,000 damage.

White Mage nukes don't suck because they're unable to kill things with them. They suck because they take longer to kill with them than a Black Mage nuking would.

You keep saying "It's good", and "It's effective", but by whose standard? How good is it? How much is good enough? What do you consider good, and not good?

Frankly, I don't consider 3k Vorpals good at all when I can consistently do 5k Smites, both more often, and with significantly more TP phase damage in between.

Frankly, I don't consider 600MP, 20% Max Cure Potency, and Cure 1-4 good at all when I can do significantly better on any mage job.

Herp Bloody Freakin' Derp: Easy Content is So Easy that Anyone with Any Job can do it, QED: All jobs are awesome and Paladin is a boss tier Healer.

@Aeonk, That doesn't change the fact that the person would always be more useful and better on Warrior than they would on Paladin. A good player is a good player. A bad player is a bad player. A good job is a good job and a bad job is a bad job, for the situation at hand. In Abyssea? Paladin is utter crap and any good player running around on it is essentially an utter waste of potential.

NO. I think White Magic nukes suck because they do crap damage for the mp used. It has nothing to do with a Black Mage. If i tried to kill something with my white magic nukes I would be out of MP before the monster was under 75% health. That is why they suck...it has nothing to do with the black mage, or any other mage for that matter.

They suck because they are not effective. Period.

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

[Zagen]

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

Actually you haven't done that or anything remotely close to that yet.

At best all you've done is point out that when there isn't anything better available then PLD is awesome.

[Dale]

Actually you haven't done that or anything remotely close to that yet.

At best all you've done is point out that when there isn't anything better available then PLD is awesome.

Actually I have done that.

And the best you've done is say everthing sucks because someone else can do it better...

[Greatguardian]

NO. I think White Magic nukes suck because they do crap damage for the mp used. It has nothing to do with a Black Mage. If i tried to kill something with my white magic nukes I would be out of MP before the monster was under 75% health. That is why they suck...it has nothing to do with the black mage, or any other mage for that matter.

They suck because they are not effective. Period.

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

You are drawing completely arbitrary lines and then stepping over as many of them as you want.

Is Banish III super awesome because it can do 500 damage? If no one else could do 500 damage in one hit, damn straight that would be awesome. WHM would be the single best nuker around. If Black mage was doing 400 damage per Blizzard V, then White Mage would be flipping amazing.

Is Vorpal Blade a really cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything because it can average 2k-2.5k in Abyssea? Considering a damn good DD at 75 was lucking to average that high in an ideal environment, sure it may look that way. But is it actually any good? Absolutely not. Vorpal Blade is utter crap. Why? Because it's normal for any good DD to be averaging 4k-5k in Abyssea, and the gap widens tremendously in the real DD's favor outside.

Things are good because of how much they do relative to something else. Is 100 damage/minute good? Is 1,000? Is 10,000? 100,000? How the hell would you know? Oh, that's right, because you can see how much other jobs can do and compare them.

[Dale]

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

.

I've already explained this to you a million times, but I guess I will once again.

If it gets the job done then it's effective.

I can't kill crap with my white mage nukes cause they suck. They would run me out of mp long before the monster was even hardly scratched.

The black magic nukes however (yes, even the tier 4 ones) do quite well and make things go dead.

It's a simple concept and I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding it. If it works it's good. If it doens't, then it sucks.

[Greatguardian]

My White mage can kill "Things" with nukes. It can do "Quite Well" as long as I'm not comparing it to how well Black Mage does. It can get the job done.

That doesn't make it good.

[Dale]

My White mage can kill "Things" with nukes. It can do "Quite Well" as long as I'm not comparing it to how well Black Mage does. It can get the job done.

That doesn't make it good.

Well I don't play white mage so i can't really say, but I know on my pld my white magic nukes suck and I can't kill anything with them. All Holy and Banish II would do is drain my mp and not hurt the monster. In fact - they should rename the HOly Spell to Waste of MP spell, because that's what it is if you ask me. My log should read "jeremi cast Waste of MP" when i use it.

So from my standpoint, your arugment don't hold water. They just suck.

I use my nukes when I play on my red mage.

I don't go anywhere near my nukes when I play my Pld. They don't get the job done. I highly doubt they would if I played white mage either, but since I don't i will refrain from making that claim :)

That is my point. It has nothing to do with black mage or blue mage or any other mage.

[Greatguardian]

"Get the job done".

WHM can kill things with nukes, it just takes longer than BLM.

Paladin can kill things with melee, it just takes longer than WAR.

What the hell can't get the job done in the majority of content in this game. Can a Paladin heal and have people survive? Possibly. Doesn't mean anyone does it. Can a White Mage nuke and kill things? Sure. Doesn't mean anyone does it.

Whm nuking isn't popular because it sucks, but it can "Get the job done" fine if someone's dense enough to do it. That doesn't make it less suck.

[Nicholiathan]

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

[Zagen]

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

This solves nothing PLD still won't be used. X random DDs can all hold hate over mages, mitigate the same damage as PLD and do more damage than PLD thus they are better tanks. Bolded why PLD isn't used as a tank in old content and Abyssea.

Edit: better tanks as defined by the community as a whole.

[Lutschfactor]

im still doing the download things. but seems like with cover the person will still need to go behind the pld. which we all know even if ur zerging down anything ur not gonna move behind the pld. and the pld wont move behind u. least i dont. u die its on u not me. i dont expect shield bash to do better numbers either. and with an aegis prolly not gonna be much more maybe 300-350. not gonna be anything high like 500 or so. and considering ochain and aegis are the best shields in the game. i would thing aegis would do more then ochain but we all know this dev team. they love abyssea things. so im honestly expecting ochain to do at least 400 and up and still aegis is shit on even tho it does more to shield bash due to it being a real item to obtain and all.

Edit: first shield bash on a spider in misery. 285 seems like they did nothing with aegis for shiled bash

[Secure]

I think one of the biggest problems with the argument here is that Dale is consistently focusing on whether something is "effective". While others might be looking to argue that something is more or less "efficient".

Effective - producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect <an effective policy>

Now if we're talking about whether or not a job has the capability to produce the desired results, well now we're going to have to look at what the desired result actually is. For some people it's simply to win and in this case any kind of damage output or whatever will work including tactics like DOT kiting. Hence any job can be considered effective. For others the objective of winning is essentially guaranteed as most content is mind numbingly easy so the only real issue is speeding things up to make farming more "efficient".

Efficient - productive of desired effects; especially : productive without waste <an efficient worker>

This is where the real contention should lie. If you go back and compare a Red Mage to a Black Mage when it comes to damage output of spells vs. MP cost. Well, Black Mage is going to win, not only do they have superior increases to overall damage through equipment they also have a more potent MAB job trait (2 more levels of it in fact). We can spin this for any DD as well. While a PLD may in fact be able to deal damage and "effectively" kill and/or tank whatever prey it attacks, a stronger DD (say MNK, WAR, etc.) will undoubtedly be able to do it faster due to increased TP phase dmg/ws dmg/native traits/JAs.

Can a PLD deal damage? Yes
Can a PLD deal more damage and faster than other DD jobs? Most likely not.
Can a RDM nuke? Yes
Can a RDM do more dmg and kill faster than a BLM would? Definitely not.

In summation, PLD + WHM duo can effectively kill off an NM. MNK + WHM duo can kill that NM more efficiently by using the same resources and getting the job done considerably quicker.

P.S. An easier comparison for spell efficiency - Red Mage does 800 dmg Blizzard IV, Black Mage casts the same spell for 1500 dmg. Assuming no conserve MP procs obviously the BLM is more "efficient" because he is using the same MP/spell and doing considerably more DMG. It would take the blm 20 casts to kill a monster with 30k HP and 37.5 casts for a RDM to kill that same monster assuming the same damage occurred on every cast. (Variances in dmg should not change this much unless these spells are resisted heavily and often)

[Arlan]

I would like to add some of my own opinion since I have PLD since 2006.

The main reason i played PLD back in 2006 was because I wanted to be Tank.

I have WHM for Main healing.
I have DRK for DDing
I have SMN and DRG for soloing and duoing
I have BRD for buffing parties and constantly pulling mobs and sleeping them.

I wanted a different gameplay. I wanted to Tank. Hold a monster and take the lowest damage possible and be the 1st to die for my parties' survival.

Note: Ninjas have High evasions and Shadows to tank efficiently without getting hit. (Thats the idea of course)


But with PLD, its about Getting Hit, but for WAY LESS than any other jobs. And it can heal itself very effectively.
I decided to do PLD for that very reason.

As a PLD, I expect abilities or spells or Job traits and even gear or atmas that can make PLD do what it suppose to.
I do not mind doing damage as PLD, but if I wanted to be a DD, I wouldn't be playing PLD for DDing. Nor would I play PLD for soloing. If I play PLD, I wana Play PLD as a Tank. What it was made to be.

As a PLD:
I expect to have abilities to hold LOTs OF HATE!
I expect to have abilities or traits to Reduce Major Damages that NMs or monsters do.
I expect WSs that PULL HUGE amounts of Hate and Reduces the Monster's damage input to me and the whole party
(Not damage wise. I'm speaking Enmity Wise)

PLD doesn't need HUGE Damage input to hold hate.
PLD needs a trait that keeps hate and reduces damage per hit it takes, gains hate per hit they take, and per hit they make.

More abilities to use to increase the monsters attention and reduces the monsters attacks.

What I want to see is a PLD take 20 damage from an NM or a monster that normally does 200+ damage per hit on other jobs you see out there!

Is that overpowered? IN NO WAY IT IS!

Why do I say it is NOT overpowered? Because THF and NIN tanks rarely get "Hits" in abyssea for example. While PLDs get hit like a B@#*$! PLDs need to match up with THF and NIN tanks so PLDs can be better if not, equal with NIN and thfs.

Evasion Tanking is a Big deal because if monsters rarely hit you, and you can hold hate, You are very effeciant job choice for events.

Imagen PLD's being effecaint Tanking by having abilities and traits to hold HUGE amounts of Hate while taking HUGE amount of reduced Damages that no jobs out there can take!? Then we can be equal to NIN and THF.

If anything, Call NIN and THF overpowered but with what Im saying if SE improves on for PLD, Then PLDs will be useful again because of "How much HATE" it holds AND the amount of damage they take is Massively low where Its just as good as having a NIN or THF evasion tanking.

I dont care if Shield Bash does some Damage. Thats stupid!
Make Shield Bash take 50% Hate or more from the mob!!!!

I dont care if PLDs can do more Damage!
Make PLDs take Something like 20 damage that equals to 200+ damage from other jobs that take from Mobs!

Make PLD's Equally baddass in tanking if not, better by having abilities to grab hate!

Thats all I have to say lol.

[Zagen]

Why you love/thoughts about PLD
The thing is a majority of why you chose PLD wasn't anymore true in 2006 than it is today.

Back then PLD tanked with an Earth Staff even in EXP parties, it was accepted that a dedicated TANK slot was needed when it wasn't. PLD was nice HNMs back in the day before DDs really had the boosts they've gotten over the years.

Back then a RDM/NIN was the best defensive tank, granted you had to know how to play it and how hate worked both of which wasn't completely understood back then. RDM/NIN got nerfed in an era that didn't even need a dedicated tank anymore so I'm not sure why SE did that.

The reason I and a few others in the past have advocated giving PLD a more aggressive role in the game is because right now it takes roughly 2 HP cured to equal 1 damage dealt. Inside abyssea, BCNM fights (new and old), and/or old content DDs deal a lot of damage and will generally take the same damage a PLD would take meaning they can not only fill the role of DD but the role of TANK as well which in turn means a quicker end to the fight.

That said Voidwatch from my understanding is very much PLD required at least for some of the fights which is nice and sad to hear. I mean as it stands right now my PLD will see the light outside of town if my friend/LS ever decides to try Voidwatch until then it sits in town occasionally at best.

1 event does not equate to a fixed job. Either all new content will need to be on the scale of Voidwatch so PLD starts showing up again in groups who want to be efficient or PLD needs an offensive boost so it can be a Tank and a DD. Thus welcome in the current gameplay because even if they took 20 damage instead of 200 when a single WHM can manage the DD taking 200 damage hits and the DDs aren't losing hate to the mages PLD won't be needed.

[Greatguardian]

^ Agreed. New content requiring Paladin is always helpful. Though really, and I'm always shot down whenever I say this, I'm of the firm belief that Almace/Ochain/Burtgang+ fixed the majority of what was wrong with Paladin.

Now, can just anyone get an Ochain? Well, yes, but for the sake of argument let's say no because it's a pain in the ass to get and a vast majority of people are lazy/unable to work well with others. So a lot of people don't like to consider an equipment-specific fix a fix to the Paladin job. However, Paladin has always been a particularly equipment-heavy job. Back in its hey-day, it was one of the most complex jobs around, and required easily 3-4x as much gear as any other job in the game bar a good RDM. A lot of that gear was R/EX and/or extremely expensive. None of that has changed.

Now, is that to say that Paladin can't be mildly effective without awesome gear? No. I've most definitely tanked Sandworm and other HNM-esque mobs with little more than AF, a turban, and 500k's worth of whatever I could find after my character was hacked in 2008. Kept pace with my Aegis co-tank too. But that doesn't mean I was anywhere near as good as I could and should have been without my equipment and working macros.

Anyone serious about Paladin and utilizing it post-Abyssea should start investing the time and energy into completing a 90 Ochain. If you want tips for making that nightmare easier? Feel free to ask. If you just want to complain about how hard it is and freak out about how gear shouldn't be required to make a job work? Well, it's your right to post, but I've honestly heard it all before.

[Arlan]

The thing is a majority of why you chose PLD wasn't anymore true in 2006 than it is today.

Back then PLD tanked with an Earth Staff even in EXP parties, it was accepted that a dedicated TANK slot was needed when it wasn't. PLD was nice HNMs back in the day before DDs really had the boosts they've gotten over the years.

Back then a RDM/NIN was the best defensive tank, granted you had to know how to play it and how hate worked both of which wasn't completely understood back then. RDM/NIN got nerfed in an era that didn't even need a dedicated tank anymore so I'm not sure why SE did that.

The reason I and a few others in the past have advocated giving PLD a more aggressive role in the game is because right now it takes roughly 2 HP cured to equal 1 damage dealt. Inside abyssea, BCNM fights (new and old), and/or old content DDs deal a lot of damage and will generally take the same damage a PLD would take meaning they can not only fill the role of DD but the role of TANK as well which in turn means a quicker end to the fight.

That said Voidwatch from my understanding is very much PLD required at least for some of the fights which is nice and sad to hear. I mean as it stands right now my PLD will see the light outside of town if my friend/LS ever decides to try Voidwatch until then it sits in town occasionally at best.

1 event does not equate to a fixed job. Either all new content will need to be on the scale of Voidwatch so PLD starts showing up again in groups who want to be efficient or PLD needs an offensive boost so it can be a Tank and a DD. Thus welcome in the current gameplay because even if they took 20 damage instead of 200 when a single WHM can manage the DD taking 200 damage hits and the DDs aren't losing hate to the mages PLD won't be needed.

I never said "Why you love/thoughts about PLD" why did you quote that? lol
Other than that, I understand what your saying. Good reply.

I just want to be back in the Tanking business is all =(

[Zagen]

Anyone serious about Paladin and utilizing it post-Abyssea should start investing the time and energy into completing a 90 Ochain. If you want tips for making that nightmare easier? Feel free to ask. If you just want to complain about how hard it is and freak out about how gear shouldn't be required to make a job work? Well, it's your right to post, but I've honestly heard it all before.

11 Skins away from 85 Almace and then back to working on Ochain (finished plates a while ago). I was wondering if you had any advice on color changing :D haven't found any info other than its "luck". This is the only part I'm worried about since I'm almost certain we'll have the 75 horns before I finish the souls.

[Zagen]

I never said "Why you love/thoughts about PLD"
I summarized your post so it wasn't a giant quote ^^

[Arlan]

I summarized your post so it wasn't a giant quote ^^

Ok then lol

[Greatguardian]

11 Skins away from 85 Almace and then back to working on Ochain (finished plates a while ago). I was wondering if you had any advice on color changing :D haven't found any info other than its "luck". This is the only part I'm worried about since I'm almost certain we'll have the 75 horns before I finish the souls.

Luck :(. It's sad, but it's really all the advice I can give on changing. I'd camp out in Xarcabard when your group is offline or you're off/on doing other things in rl though. You can buy T3 pops from groups fighting Shiva for seals, and you can probably even snag Souls off of the occasional group that kills Leviathan for the armor drops (I've seen it, once or twice).

If you don't already know, definitely stick with Levi for souls in general. His drop rate on doubles is significantly higher than the other two T3s (hell if I know why), and Levi/Shiva are ridiculously easy fights to boot so it's really a no brainer. I had originally thought about getting some T3s in Altepa while doing plates for a buddy of mine, but after 6 hours and 20 T2s without a single change I just said fruit it.

[Twille]

I would like to add some of my own opinion since I have PLD since 2006.

The main reason i played PLD back in 2006 was because I wanted to be Tank.

I have WHM for Main healing.
I have DRK for DDing
I have SMN and DRG for soloing and duoing
I have BRD for buffing parties and constantly pulling mobs and sleeping them.

I wanted a different gameplay. I wanted to Tank. Hold a monster and take the lowest damage possible and be the 1st to die for my parties' survival.

Note: Ninjas have High evasions and Shadows to tank efficiently without getting hit. (Thats the idea of course)


But with PLD, its about Getting Hit, but for WAY LESS than any other jobs. And it can heal itself very effectively.
I decided to do PLD for that very reason.

As a PLD, I expect abilities or spells or Job traits and even gear or atmas that can make PLD do what it suppose to.
I do not mind doing damage as PLD, but if I wanted to be a DD, I wouldn't be playing PLD for DDing. Nor would I play PLD for soloing. If I play PLD, I wana Play PLD as a Tank. What it was made to be.

As a PLD:
I expect to have abilities to hold LOTs OF HATE!
I expect to have abilities or traits to Reduce Major Damages that NMs or monsters do.
I expect WSs that PULL HUGE amounts of Hate and Reduces the Monster's damage input to me and the whole party
(Not damage wise. I'm speaking Enmity Wise)

PLD doesn't need HUGE Damage input to hold hate.
PLD needs a trait that keeps hate and reduces damage per hit it takes, gains hate per hit they take, and per hit they make.

More abilities to use to increase the monsters attention and reduces the monsters attacks.

What I want to see is a PLD take 20 damage from an NM or a monster that normally does 200+ damage per hit on other jobs you see out there!

Is that overpowered? IN NO WAY IT IS!

Why do I say it is NOT overpowered? Because THF and NIN tanks rarely get "Hits" in abyssea for example. While PLDs get hit like a B@#*$! PLDs need to match up with THF and NIN tanks so PLDs can be better if not, equal with NIN and thfs.

Evasion Tanking is a Big deal because if monsters rarely hit you, and you can hold hate, You are very effeciant job choice for events.

Imagen PLD's being effecaint Tanking by having abilities and traits to hold HUGE amounts of Hate while taking HUGE amount of reduced Damages that no jobs out there can take!? Then we can be equal to NIN and THF.

If anything, Call NIN and THF overpowered but with what Im saying if SE improves on for PLD, Then PLDs will be useful again because of "How much HATE" it holds AND the amount of damage they take is Massively low where Its just as good as having a NIN or THF evasion tanking.

I dont care if Shield Bash does some Damage. Thats stupid!
Make Shield Bash take 50% Hate or more from the mob!!!!

I dont care if PLDs can do more Damage!
Make PLDs take Something like 20 damage that equals to 200+ damage from other jobs that take from Mobs!

Make PLD's Equally baddass in tanking if not, better by having abilities to grab hate!

Thats all I have to say lol.

Quoted for truth.
I've felt this way for a LONG time. I think SE should just give PLDs a job trait equivalent to PDT/MDT-x%.

[hiko]

Quoted for truth.
I've felt this way for a LONG time. I think SE should just give PLDs a job trait equivalent to PDT/MDT-x%.
damage resistance instead of damage taken (same thing but separate term )

[Mightyg]

Fervor JT: Grants 20% damage and attack bonus when the Paladin has the monsters attention. Paladin auto attacks tend to do little to no damage against hnm because of the way one needs to gear defensively. This bonus would help the paladin deal consistent damage and make up for all the time they lose with non damage abilities to keep hate.

Thwart JA: Job ability that reduces damage taken by 75% but lasts only 4 seconds and the paladin cannot move or attack for the duration.

Netherspikes JA or Spell: An attack used by fomors, cone damage plus bind. change the color of the graphic to white/blue and make the bind effect a flat 5 second duration. Using it would prep a light skillchain, and the 5 second bind would ensure any follow up weaponskills would hit their target. could also be used to buy time if the paladin lost hate control.

Trait that grants more enmity on offensive divine magic and healing.

2 hand greatsword traits and abilities: Would give pld a little more dd potential when he finds himself not being used for tanking. Backup tank + light dd.

Spearhead JA: Sacrifice +15% damage taken for 15% gear haste 5 min duration 5 min cooldown. Enhances the total magic damage (duration) of enlight by 100%

Conviction JT: Converts 50% of Vit to Str and 50% of mnd to Dex. 2 hand only.

Intervention JA: Forces the enemy to attack the pld for the next 5 seconds, reduces enmity. Would be used as a backup tanking tool to buy some time to save a teammate. Only works in close range.

Grace JT: 2 handed weaponskills have a chance to restore 25% of the plds mp

Some whm reforms that would help pld as well:
Cure potency becomes divine magic attack bonus.
Holy, Banish, Comet: scaled to be comparable in damage to black mage top tier spells, however limited by element and higher cooldowns.

This would let pld have some magical sources of damage and enmity, and give a better reason to add cure potency to their sets.

Doing these suggestions would also open up paladin to different sub jobs like sch, sam, etc.

[Gropitou]

I would be really happy if we got provoke as our own job ability, anything more is gravy.