Job Trait "Quick Magic" naturally on RDM?

[Zatias]

Do you guys think this will happen? A low-ish chance (like 5-10%) of natural quick magic on RDM? Nothing too broken, lest we have infinite Utsusemi casts with no wait in between.

I am doubting it will happen but this would be a nice addition, since we have so many buffs to give ourselves and others, while throwing in debuffs, nukes, and a few cures, sometimes even Fast Cast isn't enough! What do you guys think?

(inb4 no thanks give us rdm melee abilities) :p

This might actually improve our melee capability as it means less wait time between buffing yourself for melee in the first place. Less casting time = more time to melee.

[Hyrist]

We actually went over this in the melee thread.

The fact that this is uncontrolled can, in the eyes of many Red Mages, would be too disruptive to the very control-orientated system Red Mage has constructed itself around in macros, in cycles, and just trying to predict things in general.

[Zatias]

Just like a WAR's double attack can kill the mob when say, farming a certain light or trying to get someone else's "killing blow" trial done. Some job traits do disrupt your macros and gameplay, I don't see how a small percentage of Quick Magic happening could completely cripple RDM's macros.

[Kristal]

The fact that this is uncontrolled can, in the eyes of many Red Mages, would be too disruptive to the very control-orientated system Red Mage has constructed itself around in macros, in cycles, and just trying to predict things in general.

I think the benefits far outweigh the problems. Also, it could be just a subset of casting skills that is affected.
Such as Quick Enfeebling, Quick Healing, Quick Enhancing, but not Dark Magic, Divine Magic, Elemental Magic or others. (So, no insta-Utsusemi or Stun, even though they already are near-instant anyway)

[Zatias]

I think the benefits far outweigh the problems. Also, it could be just a subset of casting skills that is affected.
Such as Quick Enfeebling, Quick Healing, Quick Enhancing, but not Dark Magic, Divine Magic, Elemental Magic or others. (So, no insta-Utsusemi or Stun, even though they already are near-instant anyway)

That actually doesn't sound like a bad idea, or maybe based off of your current skill (i.e. higher skill means more chance of it firing off, lower skill means a low chance). Would nearly be the same effect.

[ManaKing]

Just like a WAR's double attack can kill the mob when say, farming a certain light or trying to get someone else's "killing blow" trial done. Some job traits do disrupt your macros and gameplay, I don't see how a small percentage of Quick Magic happening could completely cripple RDM's macros.

The difference between cripple and inconvenience is large. But I would see Quick Magic going off as an inconvenient random occurance that would be counterproductive to the planned way I play a mage or any MP dependant job.

It would be 'neat' but I would rather have the consistency of higher values of fast cast.

[Doombringer]

i'd rather have a faster fast cast personally.

i'm not gonna try and say an unpredictable instacast would be a disaster, but i'd still rather something i can count on.

[Seriha]

Make it a 1m JA for the next spell at most. Uncontrolled is a no-no, as I don't wanna cast anything in my FC gear.

[Merton9999]

Yeah no thanks on the random firing. I hate Quick Magic as it exists now. Not just the casting in the wrong gear but the concept of random firing annoys me to no end. The only acceptable implementation of this is on the SCH AF3+2, where I can control the chance by only equipping the set before the spells I'd appreciate the insta-cast on. I'd quit the job out of sheer aggravation if it wasn't a controllable in some way - a JA on 1-5 minute timer for the next spell would be fantastic.

[saevel]

I'd prefer to have Quick Cast as a JA, give it a 3~5min like the other jobs got. We use it and the next spell cast will be cast instantly with no recast, basically a guaranteed firing of the "Quick Cast" trait from the atma. Would be helpful to get sh!t done, and definitely be in line with RDM's style.

[Raxiaz]

This topic reeks of "Double Cast" ideas, when they weren't really double cast to begin with.

I'm personally of the opinion that Quick Enhancing would be beast. Occasional chance to instantly cast Haste, Refresh, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Blink, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, En-spells, Bars, Sneak/Invis, etc? Sounds good to me - and most of those (save for Stoneskin) aren't affected too greatly by gear.

[Esvedium]

Yea, phalanx, enspells, and barspells are TOTALLY not affected by gear.

More fastcast, no random quickmagic. 3-5min cooldown /ja for forcing quickmagic might be interesting, though.

[Raxiaz]

Phalanx is easily reached to cap on RDM just from having capped enhancing... wtf are you talking about? Enspells you have a point about but IIRC enspell damage is calculated on hit, not on cast, you're ridiculous.

And a /ja for forcing quick magic is basically a double cast. I swear if they don't add this for RDMs between 91 and 99 I will never play RDM again, period.

[Alienmonkey]

I would stop playing rdm if they added this......

[Merton9999]

I would stop playing rdm if they added this......

Me too, if it were a random trait and not a JA.

Only Enspell II is calculated on hit, not Enspell 1. I don't bother with FC gear for enspells though, so Quick Magic wouldn't hurt those - I'd just move the potency equips before the cast. Also, I haven't tested it in a while, but I thought Phalanx cap was raised recently (last update)? Again, it wouldn't matter for Phalanx because I don't care about FC in pre-cast for it.

Either way, the effect of Quick Magic on potency is not what I'm concerned about anymore with the addition of AF3 boots, AF3+2 composure set bonus, and Est. cape. These increase enhancing magic duration significantly. If random Quick Magic applied to enhancing spells you'd either have to forget about pre-cast FC gear for the small chance of Quick Magic firing, or lose out on the extra duration. Neither is acceptable to me for Haste, Refresh, Phalanx II. Losing the pre-cast FC is more palatable, but I would by far prefer a constant reliable FC on those spells vs. a random insta-cast.

Even if they were to somehow factor in post-cast gear swaps into the insta-cast spell, I would still absolutely hate the randomness of Quick Magic being a forced job trait.

[Supersun]

Phalanx is easily reached to cap on RDM just from having capped enhancing

Caps were removed a while ago

[Alienmonkey]

Caps were removed a while ago

Yay did they really remove the cap on phalanx?!

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes. the formula changed slightly too, Phalanx 2 isn't as bad as it used to be, depending on gear it should equal Phalanx 1 at 5/5 merits now.

[Vicious]

Random activation, no thanks. But here's a better idea that has plenty of precedent in the FF series at large:

Doublecast (Job Ability: RDM99) Recast: 10 Minutes / Duration: 1 Minute

Causes your next spell cast to be instantly recast upon completion, on the same target. If you do not possess enough MP to cast the second spell, the target is no longer valid, or you cast an incompatible spell, the effect remains active. Otherwise, the additional cast activates, and the Doublecast effect wears off (in other words, works just like Saboteur, Strategems, etc.)

Granted, the uses would be pretty limited to nukes and cures.. an alternate function that would take advantage of the incoming lv99 merits could be:

Doublecast (Job Ability: RDM99) Recast: 10~20 Minutes / Duration: 30~60 Seconds

Upon successful casting of a spell, allows your next spell to be cast instantly if it utilizes the same Skill. Does not chain, i.e. if you use it to spam nukes, only every 2nd spell will be instant, the spell must be cast at normal casting time to activate Quick Magic on the next.

..which would be a lot more useful, but maybe harder to implement, I don't know, I'm not a dev. I don't think either would be game-breaking in the least, and they'd certainly complement RDM's repertoire and general mission in-game.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No JA should be locked at 10 minutes, it's like the stupid two-hours, it has no balance issues whatsoever to be shorter.

I would say all JA's should be recast 5 Minutes maximum.

[Vicious]

Clearly, your understanding of game balance is..... lacking.

[Supersun]

Game balance is entirely relative

[Vicious]

Relative to what, exactly? (Did you mean subjective? Because that's a different word with a different meaning...) Because I'm pretty sure that having Chainspell on a 5 minute recast would be hugely broken; if you doubt me, you can go see what it's like in Abyssea.

[Supersun]

Relative - "something having, or standing in, some relation to something else."

Something can't be broken in of itself. It can only be broken when compared to other things.

[Vicious]

Well no shit, how about, compared to itself in an unbroken state? Your attempt at playing semantics is adorable and all, but it has nothing to do with anything. Game balance itself is whatever the devs make it; opinions about it (such as the stupid one voiced by the 5min JA guy) are subjective. You chiming in with this obvious nonsense you seem to think is so enlightening is laughable.

Don't bother replying unless you have something constructive to say, not getting drawn into a troll fight.

[Supersun]

Something cannot be broken by itself. For something to be broken there must be some reason. I mean all you have managed to do so far is waltz into this thread and just state that his idea is broken

congratulaThat tells us nothing...

Why is it broken? is there some abusable strategy? Does it threaten other jobs? You sort of left that part out of your posts.

If it is broken what can be done to fix it? Increase the recast timer? Limit the types of spells it can work with? Something else you didn't even attempt to say. No concept is so broken that it can't be fixed.

I way TRYING to be nice and ignore your AD HOMINEM BULLCRAP you typed a few posts back and get you to expand on your logic, but apparently you aren't here for any constructive reasons and are just here to troll by attacking other people's ideas without actually contributing anything useful at all.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well no shit, how about, compared to itself in an unbroken state? Your attempt at playing semantics is adorable and all, but it has nothing to do with anything. Game balance itself is whatever the devs make it; opinions about it (such as the stupid one voiced by the 5min JA guy) are subjective. You chiming in with this obvious nonsense you seem to think is so enlightening is laughable.

Don't bother replying unless you have something constructive to say, not getting drawn into a troll fight.

Wow, rude! Bravo!! Wonder what other website you came from, as if it's hard to guess.

Anyway, I said it's not broken to be shorter than 2-hours I never said the 2-hour should be reduced to 5 minutes I was thinking more ~1 hour. The 5-minute recast was to every other JA that has no real reason to be longer such as Divine Seal, Elemental Seal and so on. These would NOT be game breaking, nor break the fake balance SE moan about that doesn't truly exist.

[Vicious]

Why is it broken? is there some abusable strategy? Does it threaten other jobs? You sort of left that part out of your posts.

If it is broken what can be done to fix it? Increase the recast timer? Limit the types of spells it can work with? Something else you didn't even attempt to say. No concept is so broken that it can't be fixed.

Aside from the amusing rant, which was mildly entertaining I guess, it would appear to me that you need to recheck who wrote what, in response to what; because if I'm reading this correctly... well, someone waltzed in here and started attacking other people without contributing anything, etc., and I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't me.


Anyway, I said it's not broken to be shorter than 2-hours I never said the 2-hour should be reduced to 5 minutes I was thinking more ~1 hour. The 5-minute recast was to every other JA that has no real reason to be longer such as Divine Seal, Elemental Seal and so on.

Not what you wrote, not what I responded to. If you aren't going to communicate your ideas clearly enough for those of us unable to read minds across the internet to understand them, you don't get to bitch when people "misunderstand" you.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Not what you wrote, not what I responded to. If you aren't going to communicate your ideas clearly enough for those of us unable to read minds across the internet to understand them, you don't get to bitch when people "misunderstand" you.

Never said I wanted it at 5 minutes either, I merely included 2-hours as NOT being game breaking if they were shortened.

Unless you're now going to pretend everyone classes 2-hours in the same category as every other JA?

Now that's said lets go back to the topic of the thread and not just post to try to insult people or about some imaginary balance, thank you and good day!

[Rorrick]

I'd love a 5-10% chance to waste 250 MP on a nuke going off in my idle gear.

[Supersun]

Random thought though, excluding elemental magic and stoneskin are there any other spells that have an abnormally long cast time that you would wear fast cast gear for, that also depend on some level potency from the gear you are wearing at the conclusion of your cast?

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you could force it to happen in X amount of time via JA/for a small window maybe, random JT no. It's ultimately superfluous at best and a nuisance at worst as a random JT.

[cidbahamut]

Random thought though, excluding elemental magic and stoneskin are there any other spells that have an abnormally long cast time that you would wear fast cast gear for, that also depend on some level potency from the gear you are wearing at the conclusion of your cast?

Fast Cast for everything with maybe the exception of barspells.

Quick Magic is dumb and would be detrimental more than anything. Or if you can control it you're just mimicking Alacrity and Celerity and stepping on Scholar's toes by stealing their JAs.

[Seriha]

Yeah, Barspells are the only thing I don't macro FC into. Otherwise, all that little time gained adds up. Sadly, the moment FC takes the casting time of a spell under a second, you start risking not swapping in time in situations of lag.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Fast Cast for everything with maybe the exception of barspells.

Quick Magic is dumb and would be detrimental more than anything. Or if you can control it you're just mimicking Alacrity and Celerity and stepping on Scholar's toes by stealing their JAs.

Said like SCH hasn't stolen from RDM anyway.

[Sasaraixx]

It's too early to rejoice/complain just yet but a job ability "rdm_quick" was found in the update files.

I think it would be a good fit for RDM and should be removed from the SCH AF3 set and replaced with something more useful. . . a Taru can dream :) [And by more useful I mean that the randomness of the set bonus is really not helpful. Being a controlled JA makes it infinitely more useful.]

[Merton9999]

It's too early to rejoice/complain just yet but a job ability "rdm_quick" was found in the update files.

I think it would be a good fit for RDM and should be removed from the SCH AF3 set and replaced with something more useful. . . a Taru can dream :) [And by more useful I mean that the randomness of the set bonus is really not helpful. Being a controlled JA makes it infinitely more useful.]

I'm a speculation/spoiler addict so I'll bite. I know you said "job ability" but can you verify? I've never done any .dat mining - can you tell from the .dats if this is indeed an ability or a trait?

[Sasaraixx]

I'm a speculation/spoiler addict so I'll bite. I know you said "job ability" but can you verify? I've never done any .dat mining - can you tell from the .dats if this is indeed an ability or a trait?

Oh, I take no credit for the find and I'm just as clueless to the whole dat mining process! Sho over at BG posted the info. Here is the link:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/105755-July-12th-Version-Update/page8

[Hyrist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYzNOQ_Ly-k&feature=player_embedded

Some nifty spells there too.

[Merton9999]

Yep, and looks like quick magic will indeed be a JA. Is that a new enspell at 1:37? If the BG page list Sasaraixx posted has these in the same order as the video (leaving out the BLU spells), it looks like it's labeled "stri" with the following white magic spell "Brave1".

Too early to hope probably, but holding out for two melee self buff spells for RDM. I shouldn't say that - they will probably be for PLD and SCH. At least they aren't BLU though, like 75% of that video...

I'm excited about Curaga V though, it looks nice.

[Hyrist]

PLD already has a recent Enspell buff, this is why I rule it out currently. Comparatively RDM is overdue for a bone in the enspell department, especially when you factor Enspell II's to be in the 50-60 range.

Brave is more likely to fall in the hands of White Mage than Scholar if it was solo. But I'm more of the feeling that "Brave" is going to be a version of "Haste II" that people have occasionally mentioned, in which case, you'll likely see both RDM and WHM get it.

[Merton9999]

PLD already has a recent Enspell buff, this is why I rule it out currently. Comparatively RDM is overdue for a bone in the enspell department, especially when you factor Enspell II's to be in the 50-60 range.

Brave is more likely to fall in the hands of White Mage than Scholar if it was solo. But I'm more of the feeling that "Brave" is going to be a version of "Haste II" that people have occasionally mentioned, in which case, you'll likely see both RDM and WHM get it.

I agree a new enspell makes more sense for RDM, I'm just going with cautious optimism given the longstanding rule of "Give everything that makes sense for RDMs to other jobs."

I'd actually be surprised, or maybe just extremely disappointed, if Brave were a single-target spell for WHM and RDM. Having another spell to cycle on either of those jobs for every melee would spell job retirement for me, unless it made Haste obsolete. Given to SCH it would still be yet another cycle spell in addition to the recently added ones, but at least you could AOE it. Self-buff for RDM and/or WHM would be my ideal.

[Urteil]

PLD already has a recent Enspell buff, this is why I rule it out currently. Comparatively RDM is overdue for a bone in the enspell department, especially when you factor Enspell II's to be in the 50-60 range.

Brave is more likely to fall in the hands of White Mage than Scholar if it was solo. But I'm more of the feeling that "Brave" is going to be a version of "Haste II" that people have occasionally mentioned, in which case, you'll likely see both RDM and WHM get it.


RDM, BLU and SAM aren't overdue for crap.

[Hyrist]

Such a brilliant insight! Tell me how you came to that conclusion? (This aughta be good...)

[Merton9999]

Looks like Brave is one of SCH's 2-hour spells:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11525-Thoughts-on-the-FFXI-Job-Adjustment-Manifesto?p=156535&viewfull=1#post156535

[Sekundes]

The best solution to this in my opinion is to let us have the option. Clearly a trait is going to screw things up for people. While some don't mind this others would rather things be consistent so we can macro our gear in properly. Give us a piece of gear that has the trait on it. If we want to use it we can macro it in, if we don't then we don't. This way we can control the issue and limit it to only the spells we'd not mind insta-casting. The JA that they are giving us sounds like a gimp version of CS for one spell that doesn't instant cast so much as reduce casting time and doesn't affect recast but there is still a chance it could be used on others which I suppose is alright but @.@.

[Duelle]

The JA that they are giving us sounds like a gimp version of CS for one spell that doesn't instant cast so much as reduce casting time and doesn't affect recast but there is still a chance it could be used on others which I suppose is alright but @.@.Considering that in the JP version it's called Quick Magic, this is a done deal. Don't know why they chose to go with a needlessly fancy name for the NA version of the game, really.