[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements

[lllen]

Well again Rdm gets NOTHING........why did I work so hard only to leave the job in the MH. Unless I use it to solo, no one wants Rdm anymore.

[Capn]

Why are you so surprised....

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4937-The-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-roadmap-for-the-twelve-month-period-commencing-April-2011

June Minor Version Update
This version update will revolve around fine-tuning content introduced in May.

[Bumbeen]

rdm party play sucked anyway, solo is where the rdm fun is at

[Raksha]

*We are in the process of devising a roadmap for subsequent job adjustments, which we plan to unveil in the near future. Thank you for your patience and understanding.


Keep your knickers on.

[Duelle]

Well again Rdm gets NOTHING........why did I work so hard only to leave the job in the MH. Unless I use it to solo, no one wants Rdm anymore.It could be worse. We could be getting Refresh III, Haste II and Staff Mastery or something like that.

[Dauntless]

I couldn't help but notice there's nothing in there for RNG DRK or DRG...those are the first jobs that come to mind when I think of the word "useless"

[Nebo]

I couldn't help but notice there's nothing in there for RNG DRK or DRG...those are the first jobs that come to mind when I think of the word "useless"

Why? DRG is a great DD. The recent DRK changes are pretty bad ass also.

RNG needs some more lovin' for sure, but even they have been getting lots of attention lately too.

[Dauntless]

Why? DRG is a great DD. The recent DRK changes are pretty bad ass also.

RNG needs some more lovin' for sure, but even they have been getting lots of attention lately too.


DRGs are mediocre at best, the recent DRK changes are essentially a kick in the teeth to them, and rangers get absolutely 0 love.

[Nebo]

DRK changes are essentially a kick in the teeth to them

Capped job ability haste and Attack Boost with last resort for 3 out of 5 minutes is a kick in the teeth?

[Zyeriis]

DRGs are mediocre at best, the recent DRK changes are essentially a kick in the teeth to them, and rangers get absolutely 0 love.
This post is pretty delusional, no offense but if you think DRG is mediocre at best, you're doing it wrong.

[Leonlionheart]

The discussion in this thread is proof of how little people really know about this game.

[Seriha]

Even my gimpy DRG was busting out 3.5k Drakes and 1k+ jumps when leveling it. I can only imagine if I took the time to refine an x-hit build, flesh out +2 pieces, and other good WS gear. And while DRK may be lacking a crit WS on their main weapons, let's not pretend 600+ normal swings aren't happening, that they can also set up good x-hit builds, and are basically at 50% Haste 180s out of 250s before throwing in the spell or marches. Even then, they have a means to guarantee a roughly 2k magic WS if they bothered to gear for it.

[hiko]

DRGs are mediocre at best, the recent DRK changes are essentially a kick in the teeth to them, and rangers get absolutely 0 love.
suck less
if you think DRG is mediocre at best then any DD that is not war mnk nin are total useless shit :DRG totaly explose any other DD in aby, it's not used because it lacks !! and "tanking" ability
the only point you said that is not total bulshit is rng lack of love
=>

The discussion in this thread is proof of how little people really know about this game.

[Dauntless]

There's a reason it's War Mnk Nin or gtfo.

Sure they gave DRK a few new boosts but quite frankly it's not addressing the real problems with DRK.

Outside of Abyssea there's no problem with DRK or DRG, not sure about RNG, but inside they're definitely not up to par, DRK moreso than DRG.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Doesn't Drk have more Red and blue procs than Drg? IT's more relevant inside abyssea than Drg is aside possibly from a damage prespective but Drg still has trouble on Nms with Aoe with wyvern dying.

[Zyeriis]

Procs equate how good a job is at DDing (Damage Dealing) now? Okay. Yeah, there's a reason it's War Mnk Nin or gtfo, and it's called procs not damage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Er what? I was referring to relevancy, in which case Drk is more relevant because it has more procs and is now better at dealing damage...

[Alhanelem]

Keep your knickers on.
Most people here probably don't know what knickers are.

[Duelle]

Most people here probably don't know what knickers are.They're candy bars covered in chocolate with peanuts and caramel on the inside, but that's not important right now.

[Alhanelem]

They're candy bars covered in chocolate with peanuts and caramel on the inside, but that's not important right now.
I think you've confused that with something else. >.>

[Seriha]

Nae, knickers ae an NBA team!

Bad jokes aside, while their may be a job plan in the works, it's not a guarantee for relief. If we consider how SE behaved in the past, we might find out something like DRG and PUP would get something in August. Good for them, but not good for those who now have to wait for November or December. Furthermore, there's also concern that SE might out of touch with job issues, how people play the jobs, and perhaps how they should be played. For them to come out and say something like, "We feel RDM a powerful job and have to think carefully about what to give it." like they had before does not inspire confidence in RDMs who believe the job is not in a good place, both in identity and function.

Historically, they've been pretty slow with job adjustments. 2-4 jobs possibly getting minor attention every 3-4 months doesn't lead to happy customers when you've got 20 jobs in circulation. Sure, part of this can be appeased by the release of new gear, but some might argue that a band-aid for actual issues. Gear alone should never be a fix for a job, sort of like how RDM's +2 empyrean set bonus should actually have been a set of traits gained while leveling up for all buffs in general.

[Nicholiathan]

Was I the only one disappointed with the Paladin adjustments? Unless the added damage on Flash will somehow generate enough enmity to get an enemy's attention for 2 seconds. Oh wait flash doesn't do damage and Divine Emblem is a 10 min timer. I suppose Ninja might get a slight boost with their adjustment. But over all nothing has been done to fix the tanking situation.

[Swords]

Aye I agree that SE has been kind of slow, I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they should not rush things either. After all, the game dramatically changed for alot of jobs with the rise of the level cap, I can only imagine it might happen again when we finally peak at 99.

[Supersun]

(Only updating a handful of jobs at a time is a great economic model)

[Dallas]

I hope SE gets the hint and distributes more -pdt gear for pets for outside of Abyssea.

[Selzak]

Pls halp, my job is broken because it doesn't deal the most damage.

There is a lot of work that could be done to some jobs, but I hope those changes are not going to be based only on that aspect.

DRK should have some crit traits and/or WS's... The whole persona of Dark Knight would make you think that it should be critting more often than most, not less. However, I'm not sure that this would maintain much balance after the last update. As a DRK main, I'd much rather they give us an actual role to fill with new magic/abilities. Needs more stunning / pseudo-terror.

I think both DRK and PLD, being branches off of the WAR "tree", should have stances. These two jobs should be able to focus either on their physical/combat capabilities or support/utility capabilities depending on the situation, while WAR remains in its single in-between state with the ability to do both well at once.

I think DRG has nice mixture of survivability, damage, and hate mitigation. The only thing I'd like to see for DRG is perhaps some new breaths (with some loose level of player control) that provide buffs and/or enfeebles.

RDM shouldn't be looking to be WHM or BLM. It's always been a lesser mixture of the two. RDM needs something new and unique to bring to the table. Something like what Refresh and MP regeneration in general was for it originally. Maybe RDM could get exclusive access to ammo slot equipment that attaches auras to its weapons to provide buffs/debuffs- this would also finally give them a reason to melee. It could be anything, it doesn't have to be melee RDM, just so long as RDM has a very unique and almost-necessary role in a PT. Otherwise people will just want a WHM or BLM.

RNG...RNG definitely needs something big. Maybe a trait that occasionally expends 2 arrows (for double damgage) and very rarely expends 3 or something.

SAM is SE's lovechild, it'll be ok.

I think BST and PUP both need attention, but I don't know enough to say what exactly so I won't even try to pull any more ideas out of my ass here.

[blowfin]

Is it just me or did RDM get access to a lot of decent gear for things other than spellcasting in the last update?

[Siiri]

Pls halp, my job is broken because it doesn't deal the most damage.


SAM is SE's lovechild, it'll be ok.



Seriously what is up with SE and SAM? I thought it wasn't getting any more updates because it was too strong. That is what SE said at the last Vandafest or whatever it is called. It is so obnoxious, SAM is the last job that needs anything, along with war and mnk. I just hope the samwagon and SAM only shouts don't return like during the Nyzul/TP burn era.

[lowkey]

I think you've confused that with something else. >.>

Yea, but he still gets points for the Airplane reference.

[Lazus]

Was I the only one disappointed with the Paladin adjustments? Unless the added damage on Flash will somehow generate enough enmity to get an enemy's attention for 2 seconds. Oh wait flash doesn't do damage and Divine Emblem is a 10 min timer. I suppose Ninja might get a slight boost with their adjustment. But over all nothing has been done to fix the tanking situation.

you right and i a a bit disappointed but I think it a step in the right direction if it all works out like it sounds. Pld still got a long way before anyone want them inside aby and even outside aby right now. If anyone think drg, drk, and rng are useless in or outside aby right now, try getting invited as a pld to anything other then a level sync party.

[Duelle]

Yea, but he still gets points for the Airplane reference.Thank you! I was afraid no one was going to get it.

[Ravenmore]

Outside of abyssea rdm is still a great job, still even before abyssea rdms were really only wanted for 2 times, main healing merit parties and refreshing the whms and blms at endgame. Lot of things you could do with out a rdm but didn't have a whm or blm it would be tough. You should be happy all the DD players that only level rdm to merit whore are gone. Why you think people ditch jobs like rdm, brd, pld the first chance they get. To play the jobs they be meriting for years but never could get invites on or had to go though level hell so they might get in a endgame LS.

[Toren]

Really the main Job's I see that needed amending are PLD and RDM.

For instance RDM hasn't had Cure V since December 16th 2003, and It's something that Job needs to help it maintain decent healing, SCH can use things like Obi's and the Twilight cape combined with Aurorastorm for decent Cure heals.

PLD needs various amendments without turning it into a DD that's near invincible.

Asking for DD's SE had to do something to fix Zanshin as it has minor use compared to other JT's. I believe Sam, Drk and Drg are fine as they are, each can manage very well with proper gear.

[Duelle]

For instance RDM hasn't had Cure V since December 16th 2003, and It's something that Job needs to help it maintain decent healingHow about we push RDM in a new direction rather than give us more of the same stuff we've been dealing with since before TAU?

PLD definitely needs help, but I feel that job is more boned be the way hate mechanics work in FFXI.

[Leonlionheart]

@RDM melee

Want to do damage?
Atma: RR/SS/Apoc
Almace/DA ToM Sword/none/white tathlum
Zelus/torque(or Torero)/suppa/brutal
goliard/dusk+1/keen(or heed)/rajas
atheling/goading(or ninurta)/nashira/dusk+1

You can then at least say you'll be doing more damage than PLD anyway.

[Fyreus]

I couldn't help but notice there's nothing in there for RNG DRK or DRG...those are the first jobs that come to mind when I think of the word "useless"


lol are you trolling in the wrong thread? Why are those jobs useless? Everyone has refresh and can use it and only 3 jobs really use it tbh while others are fine with atmas.

[Malacite]

Ah delicious RDM tears...

Seriously though, I think we can safely say that we're at the point where no further major tweaks are necessary, save for perhaps a few cases;

RDM: I see a lot of people crying about Cure V, and when I hear it it sends off alarm bells in my head screaming out "PINK MAGE ONRY!!!" and the return of lolWHM. I don't see how these 2 jobs could get Cure V at this point with screwing over WHM outside of Abyssea once more. Rather, why not give RDM better enfeebling spells - Slow 3, Dia 4, Gravity/Silence II etc...

THF: Make treasure hunter actually work? Really sick of landing TH10+ and getting jack squat...

PLD: PLD is actually largely OK (for the moment) outside of Abyssea surprisingly enough, but that could very well change as Voidwatch & the rest of endgame evolves. As others have suggested, changing Cover to a job trait and perhaps making Sentinel 3 minutes would go a long ways towards fixing this job once & for all.

DRK: Change Insurgency to a crit WS (or failing that Quietus I suppose) problem solved >_>b

BST: The new jugs have been a huge success, and things are pretty good for BST. It does kind of suck however that Charm is basically a forgotten ability at this point.

RNG: So, I believe SE already had the fix for this job planned but they scrapped it for some reason I can't begin to fathom. Implement that enmity reduction based on range and you fix a lot of RNG's woes. The job doesn't need more firepower, it needs more ways to stay alive. Jishnu's Radiance + Dead Aim sure isn't helping in that regard.

NIN: The only remaining issue with NIN is still Shuriken. They're actually quite pointless now given the DPS on the newer katana, and even if SE gives us new ones they'd have to make them cost-effective unlike all the previous ones.

DRG: DRG's in a pretty good place now I'd say. The wyvern still feels a little too fragile though.

SMN: SMN's always been the red-headed step child of this game. I'm not even sure what SE could do at this point that wouldn't result in making the job too good. I do think that summoning skill with relation to avatar performance (HP, attack, def etc) and BP timers ought to be addressed however. And please, remove the 15% damage penalty on Avatar's Favor. You finally gave us a tool to encourage keeping avatars out, but then include a rather back-handed nerf to their damage which is already pitiful in most cases.

[Alhanelem]

Scholar should get cure V before anyone else. the job is in a serious rut- it can't trigger anything that isn't triggerable by other jobs, is a sub par healer in abyssea because cure IV isn't good enough anymore, and rarely does anyone make use of any of the things unique about the job. Helices are strong and a high point of the job, but I can't think of much else that gets good use in abyssea. Scholar was at the peak of its strength in old Dynamis and now it just feels like it's lagging behind a bit, simply because it doesn't offer much that no one else can do.

remove the 15% damage penalty on Avatar's Favor.It's not a % damage penalty, it's attack and magic attack minus. The physical attack loss is almost unnoticeable; just build for that if you want to use Favor.

[Malamasala]

Seriously what is up with SE and SAM? I thought it wasn't getting any more updates because it was too strong. That is what SE said at the last Vandafest or whatever it is called. It is so obnoxious, SAM is the last job that needs anything, along with war and mnk. I just hope the samwagon and SAM only shouts don't return like during the Nyzul/TP burn era.

WAR, MNK, SAM, BLM, SCH, WHM, PLD is more or less jobs that don't need anything more. They are so incredibly spoiled both with armor selection and updates.

[Leonlionheart]

WAR, MNK, SAM, BLM, SCH, WHM, PLD is more or less jobs that don't need anything more. They are so incredibly spoiled both with armor selection and updates.

Why is PLD on that list lol, no job needs more work

The rest I agree with though, other than maybe SAM and SCH since they both get sidelined for WAR and BLM or WHM.

[hiko]

@RDM melee

Want to do damage?
Atma: RR/SS/Apoc
Almace/DA ToM Sword/none/white tathlum
Zelus/torque(or Torero)/suppa/brutal
goliard/dusk+1/keen(or heed)/rajas
atheling/goading(or ninurta)/nashira/dusk+1

You can then at least say you'll be doing more damage than PLD anyway.
because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

[Malamasala]

Why is PLD on that list lol, no job needs more work

The rest I agree with though, other than maybe SAM and SCH since they both get sidelined for WAR and BLM or WHM.

Why on that list?

1) Every single update adds new PLD gear.
2) I keep seeing PLDs in my LS solo holding NMs because frankly they have unlimited MP and take little damage. If they got any new ability to tank, they'd be unkillable. I even know of PLDs who accidentally got 3 VT mobs aggro and they just wittled down all 3 solo. I'm sure they had relic shield though, but it is still a silly strong job when you can just go out and solo a bunch of monsters without fear of dying. If my SMN for example had 3 VT on the avatar, it would be dead in 5 seconds. And avatars have 50% damage reduction.

[Korpg]

Why on that list?

1) Every single update adds new PLD gear.
2) I keep seeing PLDs in my LS solo holding NMs because frankly they have unlimited MP and take little damage. If they got any new ability to tank, they'd be unkillable. I even know of PLDs who accidentally got 3 VT mobs aggro and they just wittled down all 3 solo. I'm sure they had relic shield though, but it is still a silly strong job when you can just go out and solo a bunch of monsters without fear of dying. If my SMN for example had 3 VT on the avatar, it would be dead in 5 seconds. And avatars have 50% damage reduction.

You haven't heard of the "Hundred Shields" thing?

Also, SMN needs a major update, bad! We got what, near squat in killing ability since before abyssea came out.

We got 2 new avatars, one defensive and one "maybe" offensive, and that offensive one was like a new Nether Blast or whatever Diabolos's 2hr is. Well, at least on anything important.

[Glamdring]

Pls halp, my job is broken because it doesn't deal the most damage.

Yeah dammit! where's my freaking 3k+ bard nuke?!

seriously, you hit the nail on the head, everyone acts like their job should be the damage king, and if it isn't SE is neglecting it. They aren't. The various jobs are all designed to be INCOMPLETE! This was done to foster party-based play. Job skills overlap so that any of several jobs can be used to fill a party niche, but even then how that niche is approached by any give job is different. Even beast, which was actually designed to largely solo lacks any native healing ability, relegating it to either inferior healing off its sub-job, its pet or else a good deal of downtime while you rest.

SE has always-to an extent-made every job look outside of itself for the solutions to its shortcomings. I have this sneaking suspicion that SE is actually still committed to party-based play (despite all the jags demanding their job be made capable of soloing Absolute Virtue naked with a level 1 club) and designs their job changes with this in mind. To a large extent, I think they succeed, but players generally can't seem to see beyond the damage number for the highest hit. Wrong way to evaluate jobs people, by that standard every caster but black or blue mage is "useless" as an example.

Some party roles aren't even to produce damage. A puller in a party that's really rolling (with no downtime) should only be doing whatever damage their pull technique (presumably a ranged attack, unless you use a bard) does, with them on the way to get the next whatever. Healers, whack away if you've got the time and can live but expect to be taken to task if I die because you were too busy trying to melee. Tanks... ninja might be capable of some respectable damage even if pld isn't but your job is to keep the mob off of my back, the damage is a bonus. Support roles, depends on your tools and what you are asked to support, but within the realms of that I expect that you do that (within reason, if you are support, puller, back-up healer, main sleeper and chest popper you may have your hands just a bit full).

So, this thread started with RDM getting no love.... if I may be so presumptuous to point out, even if you had a large number would have been in here QQing about how whatever love you got was the wrong thing. RDM is a multipurpose job, and the players I've watched all seem to like different roles, so your DD rdms would whine about curing, the healer-types would whine about NOT getting cures, etc. until all of you can agree on what you want how the hell is SE supposed to accomodate you with a few tweaks?

[Malacite]

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

[Soundwave]

After all the talk of summoner adjustments (While SE wont do adjustments on the jobs nobody really plays.) I really interested to see whats actually in store for the job.

[Alhanelem]

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCHI've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

[Glamdring]

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

the bard comment was sarcasm. And thank you for making my point, even if you didn't intend to. Bard's contribution isn't in what they do themselves so much, but in what they make the party they are supporting do. I don't actually WANT bard to be nuking (but make requiem work on SOMETHING dammit!), because bard is not a nuking job. We can be a fairly decent melee if we dual daggers, but that's not the thrust of the job and I don't expect any changes to make that different... nor do I want it.

the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Summoner has always done respectable damage, and regardless of the whining of a few they really still do. Certainly, a sam hits harder than your avatar, they're built for it. The balance? You can be out of range inflicting your damage while the Sam is in there eating AoEs, and there's no better defense than being out of damage range (a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings). Red mage too still does decent damage. Are they going to outdamage a Sam on melee or a Blm nuking? No. But they do tend to out-live them.

All of this is still with the caveat "unless you're gimp". If your out there with level 30-40 skills fighting level 90 mobs you deserve to die, call it an educational oportunity.

[Raksha]

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell.* SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

*Without brew

[Sparthos]

the bard comment was sarcasm. the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Except every complaint isn't a baseless one.

A job like WAR may not need adjustments because it can do its job properly but would you call a request to make BST relevant simply whining? How about PUP? RNG? SCH?

While you may have a point with RDM where the job lacks shine within Abyssea, the class will largely fix itself outside. You have melee complaints here and there but the job is largely functional. It can support, nuke, cure and solo relatively well.

RDM is in good place outside Abyssea. Short of a Phenilune type Cure spell and some melee tweaks to satisfy the die-hard fencers, the job will go back to being support fluff at anything that needs a support line.

Then you have classes like BST PUP and RNG where SE has a vision but without patches these jobs will still be on the never used list in party content. Why?

Beastmaster lacks offensive might, has to choose between buffing the pet ("pet:" sets) or buffing yourself (typical DD gear) and has few tools to improve the power of the pet. In a pool full of easier to play DD, BST suffers from being a house divided.

It can solo awesome but its party mechanics have always been suspect and this is supposedly a party-oriented game right? Where are the BST adjustments I say to SE.

Ranger is supposed to be a ranged offensive yet can't help but wind up dead if played correctly. With little to no threat reduction tools, most RNG become a mage's nuisance while doing less damage than a standard DD in the fray eating AOE.

Why field a Ranger when it can't stay at a distance for long? Why give BLM Enmity Douse yet snub RNG?

Puppetmaster suffers from pet job syndrome where the automaton is just too clunky to deal with, maneuvers eat up master DPS and overall it's lack of purpose or direction leads towards mediocrity in the over-saturated world of DD.

Who cares if you have multiple puppet frames when the mage AI is hopelessly stupid, the WAR maton has crappy melee ability and the RNG frame can't stay a distance without doing terrible damage?

Puppetmaster needs help and the tweaks SE tosses around add very little to the underlying problems.

SE can't fix everything but some classes have legitimate concerns that should continue to be voiced until fixed.

And lastly Summoner.


I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

In Abyssea Bards can pass as viable DD and your 15000 damage means little without proper procs anyway. I can 2-shot Apademak on COR but does that make Corsair anything special when the brews off in Abyssea? Nope.

Abyssea is a lost cause anyway. SE is supposed to be looking to the future of the game where all classes are supposed to "matter". The proc system makes a handful of jobs useful and everyone else is stuck trying to look useful.

Outside in the real world SMN has more of a fighting chance when SE gets around to tough enough mobs where being close to a mob means winding up dead. Voidwatch brought some life back into SMN-friendly endgame but frankly the lackluster drops and unpolished event leaves one scratching their heads and wondering "This is the heir to Abyssea?"

[Malamasala]

15000? I assume that is with a brew, since the highest I've seen is 6k, with the "once every 5 hours" AF3 set proc on a DC monster without any particular resistance. When the average nuke with Shiva, level 5 merit BP and MAB atmas is 3-4k, pulling out numbers like 15000 doesn't hold any weight at all. (And this if 4k on mobs without resistance. Resistant mobs cap you out at like 1-2k nukes every minute)

Still, I have no complaints on the actual damage numbers on SMN. (Except that Shiva nukes for 2k on Panktrator and Odin 2 hours for 2k on it). The problem SMN has is everything else.

For example low level pacts. One way to view them is like low level weaponskills. They should become useless. Or you view them as magic spells due to the MP cost, and then they should be separate timers so that you just like a RDM can apply blind, paralyze and slow without it taking 3 minutes to do.

Currently it is viewed as both. It costs you MP, to just apply slow and some damage and disable your DD ability for a minute. If a WAR doesn't have to pay MP for Fullbreak, why should SMN? It's a WS that already costs you your DD move so it has a huge penalty without additional MP involved.

[Dallas]

(a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings)

I have KO'd so many SMN over the years.

[Duelle]

RDM is a multipurpose job, and the players I've watched all seem to like different roles, so your DD rdms would whine about curing, the healer-types would whine about NOT getting cures, etc. until all of you can agree on what you want how the hell is SE supposed to accomodate you with a few tweaks?This is mostly because some people in both camps either trample the playstyle of the other camp, or can't comprehend the concept of a class having more than one viable role in group play if supported by game mechanics. Granted, XI's playerbase is the farthest you can get from flexible, which has never helped matters.

I'm kind of an outsider to that part of the discussion, as I'd willingly take nerfs or JAs with restrictions and other things of that sort to make my desired role and playstyle a reality...well, within reason. Nerfing healing spell casting speeds while in melee mode to make healing inconvenient while front-lining is very different from just making a melee RDM unable to cast cures altogether, for example.

RDM is in good place outside Abyssea. Short of a Phenilune type Cure spell and some melee tweaks to satisfy the die-hard fencers, the job will go back to being support fluff at anything that needs a support line.Hence all the complaining. Just because a role exists does not mean all Red Mages want that role. Otherwise the melee camp would have never existed.

[Leonlionheart]

because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

because PLD can't cast haste on itself

[Leonlionheart]

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

Screenshot or it didn't happen.

Seriously though, that's never happened. Brews don't even carry over to pets iirc. Even in that case, BLM can go over shown damage anyway (which isn't 15k, but 64k+).

[Dauntless]

*Dauntless changes stances!*

Alright, I was wrong. I'll admit it.

Although I still feel 100% the same about RNG, DRK needs a crit WS (Insurgency would be golden.) and something to make them actually casting spells relevant, and DRG needs a way to keep their wyverns alive.

If anyone says "Just use spirit link" I'm going to punch a baby.

[Karbuncle]

I've actually got a Screenshot laying around with a 11,000 Damage Heavenly Strike, was a Set bonus Proc (Which FYI Has a pretty decent proc rate).

That being said, I don't feel like i need to math out how even 11,000 Damage is still absolutely garbage compared to any DD worth their own.

Lower the BP Delay cap to 30 already >:|

[Korpg]

You guys also forget, a brew is worthless to the avatar. Doesn't give the avatar anything.

Brews are only good for the player.

So, 15k damage on a mob is without brew, and I the most I seen was 12k. Most I have done is 11k.

[Malamasala]

(Which FYI Has a pretty decent proc rate)

I don't know what you call decent, but for me it is always once per 5 hour evening. Or something along once every 100 pacts. Which would be 1% trigger with 5 AF3+2 parts.

I know I'm the unluckiest person on the earth, so that is probably your minimum amount of triggers.

[Malamasala]

It is actually interesting to see that some get 11k-15k numbers on their triggers, while I've only seen as high as 6k. Is the damage bonus based on how much your blood boon saves in MP as well? Because I can't imagine swapping the refresh atma for another MAB atma would give x2 damage on a trigger. (Assuming these 12k people actually had 3 MAB atmas on)

[Soundwave]

I've actually got a Screenshot laying around with a 11,000 Damage Heavenly Strike, was a Set bonus Proc (Which FYI Has a pretty decent proc rate).

It only has around 5% proc rate...I guess it would seem right only because of the way the avatar deals its damage every 45 sec....it would be kinda imba if no BP:R timers existed and your are able to BP:R at will.

[Korpg]

It is actually interesting to see that some get 11k-15k numbers on their triggers, while I've only seen as high as 6k. Is the damage bonus based on how much your blood boon saves in MP as well? Because I can't imagine swapping the refresh atma for another MAB atma would give x2 damage on a trigger. (Assuming these 12k people actually had 3 MAB atmas on)

It varies depending on the % of MP saved from Blood Boon.

1/2 MP saved = 50% damage increase (150% total damage)
3/4 MP saved = 75% damage increase (175% total damage)
7/8 MP saved = 100% damage increase (200% total damage)

And the proc rate is about 5% with two +2 items, increasing as you get more items. Since the proc rate of Blood Boon is so low anyway, I think that with all 5 pieces, I get about a 20% proc rate when it saves me MP on Blood Boon. Still not a lot since I think Blood Boon is about ~25% proc rate for me every 45 seconds (Soulscourge (+5%), Caller's Spats +2 (+10%) and initial trait ~10%) to get a 20% proc rate for +2 set (.25 * .2 = .05, so you are looking at 5% proc rate with full set)

As for atmas, Beyond + Minkin + Ultimate are my choices. Most of the time I get 11k damage is when I'm fighting IT++ or NMs though. Maybe if I fight something that takes triple damage on magical damage, it would look even better.

[Soundwave]

No, Just to be very clear Blood Boon and Blood Boon Augment do NOT share/stack%

It makes sense because why would SE allow up to 50% proc rate with Blood Boon Agument

You would proc more than 55% of .x damage...would be nice but extremely imba.

[Korpg]

No, Just to be very clear Blood Boon and Blood Boon Augment do NOT share/stack%

It makes sense because why would SE allow up to 50% proc rate with Blood Boon Agument

You would proc more than 55% of .x damage...would be nice but extremely imba.

I didn't say they share the same proc rate.

I said that (for me) I proc Blood Boon at about 25% of the time.

I also said that 5/5 +2 set is about 20% (at least, I think it is, would make sense, and that's about the rate I eyeballed it as)

Since 1/4 of the time I use a Blood Pact: Rage I end up saving MP from Blood Boon, and about 1/5 of the time Blood Boon set procs, it would make sense to say that 1/5th of 1/4 (1/20) would be around average of all the Blood Pacts to proc set bonus.

Which goes about the same rate as other AF+2 set bonuses.

[Malamasala]

You would proc more than 55% of .x damage...would be nice but extremely imba.

I think it is quite the opposite of imba if I play SMN every single day and have never seen an 11k proc so far. But the random number generator has always worked against me.

It's always been like this. SMN being great at damage, once a blue moon. Would it kill the game if SMN was good once a day or something?

[Leonlionheart]

I think it is quite the opposite of imba if I play SMN every single day and have never seen an 11k proc so far. But the random number generator has always worked against me.

It's always been like this. SMN being great at damage, once a blue moon. Would it kill the game if SMN was good once a day or something?

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours.

[Soundwave]

I didn't say they share the same proc rate.

I said that (for me) I proc Blood Boon at about 25% of the time.

I also said that 5/5 +2 set is about 20% (at least, I think it is, would make sense, and that's about the rate I eyeballed it as)

Since 1/4 of the time I use a Blood Pact: Rage I end up saving MP from Blood Boon, and about 1/5 of the time Blood Boon set procs, it would make sense to say that 1/5th of 1/4 (1/20) would be around average of all the Blood Pacts to proc set bonus.

Which goes about the same rate as other AF+2 set bonuses.

npnp just going by what you said.

[Korpg]

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours.

Go solo Brazen Bones in the Canal as any of your listed jobs, including SMN.

Or Onvi

[Sparthos]

Go solo Brazen Bones in the Canal as any of your listed jobs, including SMN.

Or Onvi

Not sure the point you're trying to make here.

[Korpg]

SMN is not good for just one thing, that was my point.

[Dallas]

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours.

If you have to wait 2 hours to kill something, and you need a SMN to do it, you need someone to teach you to play both jobs.

[Korpg]

Although I agree with Dallas on this point, I wish that he would word it better as to not sound so aggressive...

[RaenRyong]

Go solo Brazen Bones in the Canal as any of your listed jobs, including SMN.

Or Onvi

He could solo Ovni on MNK BLM BLU or WHM straight out. WAR probably.

No idea who Brazen Bones is.

[Leonlionheart]

Mmm... my point is SMN is pretty much a two trick pony

1. Kite.
2. Perfect Defense.

Not that either are needed.

EDIT: That's not to say it's not capable of other things, but it in no way performs on the level of the other jobs that could do those things. (DD, Nuke, Heal, Buff)

[Sparthos]

He could solo Ovni on MNK BLM BLU or WHM straight out. WAR probably.

No idea who Brazen Bones is.

Its a rather unimportant NM down in Toraimorai. That's why I was confused when he used that specific NM as an example.

Granted it's level 85, Im sure a BLU could easily solo.

[hiko]

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours chest.

F.T.F.Y.
¨¨

[Korpg]

I used Brazen Bones because it has a very potent En-Blizzard and Ice Spikes on it.

Generally speaking, it is something you wouldn't zerg down, so you have to kill it with another method.

And as far as I know, I'm still the only person in this game who soloed it at 75. People have tried, but I was the only one who succeeded.

I know it wasn't an important NM, and it doesn't drop anything worthwhile, but it was a challenge. Probably still so at this level too.

[RaenRyong]

Doesn't really help to justify SMN though since it's not a meaningful NM :X

[Alhanelem]

It's meaningful because it was a challenge. No one gives a fark what it drops.

[Dallas]

Although I agree with Dallas on this point, I wish that he would word it better as to not sound so aggressive...

If I can't make you post less about things you have never done, why are you worried for this guy?

[Korpg]

If I can't make you post less about things you have never done, why are you worried for this guy?

So that begs the question of what I haven't done before?

[Leonlionheart]

F.T.F.Y.
¨¨

If you need Perfect Defense in Abyssea, you're doing it wrong.

[Dallas]

So that begs the question of what I haven't done before?

Apparently you have never convinced anyone else that your SMN is worth inviting.

[Korpg]

Apparently you have never convinced anyone else that your SMN is worth inviting.

Neither have you. What's your point?

[Alhanelem]

So that begs the question of what I haven't done before? Improper use of "begs the question" phrase alert!

http://begthequestion.info/

[Korpg]

Improper use of "begs the question" phrase alert!

http://begthequestion.info/

sorry.....

[Dallas]

Neither have you. What's your point?

Don't worry about my point. You aren't the audience, just the example.

[Leonlionheart]

Don't worry about my point. You aren't the audience, just the example.

............ wut

[Dallas]

............ wut

You don't expect me to give away all my secrets, do you? Korpg is the guy arguing with Columbus that the world is flat, while looking at it from the moon.

[Leonlionheart]

You don't expect me to give away all my secrets, do you? Korpg is the guy arguing with Columbus that the world is flat, while looking at it from the moon.

You just aren't making any real sense is all

[Korpg]

You don't expect me to give away all my secrets, do you? Korpg is the guy arguing with Columbus that the world is flat, while looking at it from the moon.

So, you are Columbus now?

I think you are more of a Mark Cuban, an unimportant little guy who likes to shoot off his mouth way too much and think he is this world's greatest gift. Emphasis on the unimportant part.

[Sparthos]

Stuff


So, you are Columbus now?

I think you are more of a Mark Cuban, an unimportant little guy who likes to shoot off his mouth way too much and think he is this world's greatest gift. Emphasis on the unimportant part.

Well aren't you a Maverick.

[Korpg]

Well aren't you a Maverick.

Nice pun btw

[Dallas]

So, you are Columbus now?

The "you" of 6 years ago thought that a SMN would never hit 100% TP on a Greater Colibri because every melee hit would be 0, and Meditate would simply result in a WS that did 0.

The analogy is sound. I didn't bother listening to "you." I walked right up to a Greater Colibri and hit it. You, on the other hand, are 6 years too late. If it's important, I've already swung my staff at it. I can just say "you are wrong" and smile.

[Korpg]

The "you" of 6 years ago thought that a SMN would never hit 100% TP on a Greater Colibri because every melee hit would be 0, and Meditate would simply result in a WS that did 0.

The analogy is sound. I didn't bother listening to "you." I walked right up to a Greater Colibri and hit it. You, on the other hand, are 6 years too late. If it's important, I've already swung my staff at it. I can just say "you are wrong" and smile.

Some problems with your post:

1) *bolded* Nice example. One Pecking Flurry will result in your death, and One Feather Tickle will result in loss of your TP. Only way for you to kill that would be if, and only if, it uses Snatch Morsel exclusively.

2) 6 years ago, you didn't have an excuse to melee. You wiffed 30% of the time, or to gear right, you couldn't afford to keep your avatar out forever. Nobody could, but you would lose your avatar within 2 minutes. You would be called stupid, gimp, moronic, and other names that have their place on less reputable forums.

3) You would have done that by yourself. Any merit party who invited you would have asked themselves to gimp their xp/hr so bad, and you would have made SMN look bad, regardless of what you did.

4) The only thing you have done is show how much of a jerk you are. Al was the one who has proven that melee summoners are plausible, not you. All you have done is made SMNs look bad because of your arrogant attitude towards anyone who questions your way of thinking and calling people lazy/gimp for not doing things the same way you do. Your "I'm God and you better know it" opinion of yourself has done nothing but grief to anyone who wishes to either defend or support you.

All in short, shut the f**k up.

[Malamasala]

1) *bolded* Nice example. One Pecking Flurry will result in your death, and One Feather Tickle will result in loss of your TP. Only way for you to kill that would be if, and only if, it uses Snatch Morsel exclusively.

Is he soloing at merit camps now? Or is he out-DDing every single job in the game? Else I'm not sure a bird would pecking flurry at him.


2) 6 years ago, you didn't have an excuse to melee. You wiffed 30% of the time, or to gear right, you couldn't afford to keep your avatar out forever. Nobody could, but you would lose your avatar within 2 minutes. You would be called stupid, gimp, moronic, and other names that have their place on less reputable forums.

Well, 6 years ago the only thing a Summoner did was cast cure 3. I'm not sure what your point is here.


3) You would have done that by yourself. Any merit party who invited you would have asked themselves to gimp their xp/hr so bad, and you would have made SMN look bad, regardless of what you did.

Anyone, inviting SMN to anything, are gimping themselves. A job that is worse than others can't be part of a perfect setup.


4) The only thing you have done is show how much of a jerk you are. Al was the one who has proven that melee summoners are plausible, not you. All you have done is made SMNs look bad because of your arrogant attitude towards anyone who questions your way of thinking and calling people lazy/gimp for not doing things the same way you do. Your "I'm God and you better know it" opinion of yourself has done nothing but grief to anyone who wishes to either defend or support you.

I'd say you are just as much a jerk for questioning him constantly. Believe me, my arrogance grew every single day I had to hear stupid comments like "ZOMG SMN feeding the monster TP. Run away, AOE instant death incoming!".

Not defending Dallas at all, but I can't leave people alone who try and argue their side by using arguments that doesn't support either side. You can't sit there and call a melee SMN useless because it can't out-DD WARs, and then say it is a divine healer even if it heals worse than a WHM. The job sucks at everything except running away from monsters, accept it.

[Raksha]

The "you" of 6 years ago thought that a SMN would never hit 100% TP on a Greater Colibri because every melee hit would be 0, and Meditate would simply result in a WS that did 0.


Are you guys still talking about Myrkr? Cause ... you know ... it does 0 damage...

[Korpg]

Not defending Dallas at all, but I can't leave people alone who try and argue their side by using arguments that doesn't support either side. You can't sit there and call a melee SMN useless because it can't out-DD WARs, and then say it is a divine healer even if it heals worse than a WHM. The job sucks at everything except running away from monsters, accept it.

So what if it can't out DD a WAR, or out cure a RDM?

I never tried to out DD a WAR, nor make any baseless claims stating that a SMN can. Neither have I stated that it could out cure any actual healing jobs.

The job does not suck. Just because you suck at it doesn't mean that the job sucks period. I don't know any other jobs besides BST that can solo as many NMs as a SMN can. And there are some NMs out there that not even a BST can touch, but SMNs solo it with ease.

Dallas's problem is that he is so stuck on himself to realize the error of his idea. Maybe he does realize the error, but is too prideful to admit it.

I don't know what you have against SMN, but it is one of the most versatile jobs in this game.

[Dallas]

The only thing you have done is show how much of a jerk you are. Al was the one who has proven that melee summoners are plausible, not you.

All in short, shut the f**k up.

Don't you feel even marginally stupid for spending 20% of your posts following me around showing everyone how wrong you are? I didn't want to convince you, I made an example of you.

You don't have to follow me anymore. You lost, angry guy.

[Leonlionheart]

Don't you feel even marginally stupid for spending 20% of your posts following me around showing everyone how wrong you are? I didn't want to convince you, I made an example of you.

You don't have to follow me anymore. You lost, angry guy.

Dallas, no one is agreeing with you. Throughout this thread and the mythic/emp/relic staff thread people are just poking their heads in proving you wrong...

[Dallas]

You can't prove me wrong if you can't even swing a staff.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Math is hard guys.

[Dallas]

Math is hard guys.

I only use Myrkr at 300% TP. That means every time I use it, I hit something. All the math in the world isn't going to convince me my staff is inaccurate.

People need to skill up their staves and find something they can't hit. I know what I can't hit. Abyssea gnats while using tank atma. The little buggers have TP reset too, so I avoid these guys like the plague.

Actually having skill goes a long way towards filtering out 90% of baseless claims. I don't even address them. The poster knows the difference between fact and fiction.

[Sparthos]

I only use Myrkr at 300% TP. That means every time I use it, I hit something. All the math in the world isn't going to convince me my staff is inaccurate.

People need to skill up their staves and find something they can't hit. I know what I can't hit. Abyssea gnats while using tank atma. The little buggers have TP reset too, so I avoid these guys like the plague.

Actually having skill goes a long way towards filtering out 90% of baseless claims. I don't even address them. The poster knows the difference between fact and fiction.

Show us the parses. No math involved.

[Korpg]

Probably take him a couple of days to fix the parses so it shows him outdamaging Ukon WARs at least 3 to 1.

[Korpg]

Don't you feel even marginally stupid for spending 20% of your posts following me around showing everyone how wrong you are? I didn't want to convince you, I made an example of you.

You don't have to follow me anymore. You lost, angry guy.

You aren't even worth 5% of my posts. You can't even count the number of posts I spent trying to reason/argue with you about your methods and divide that by my total number of posts.

Besides, how can I be wrong when nobody has proven you right, except yourself? In fact, there are more people telling you how wrong you are than people telling you how plausible you might be. And your only supporter doesn't even say the same thing you say, he only backs you up on the MP issue. Even he admits that SMN can't outdamage any actual DD job, but he says that it is not intended to do so either.

[Dallas]

Besides, how can I be wrong
It's really easy. You excel at it. You are still ranting about that stupid Ukon post you never read.

Still enjoying Ducal Guard?

[Korpg]

Still taking my words out of context?

You know, you like to throw words together other people say, just to make you look good.

And yes, I still enjoy Ducal Guard. What's wrong with having an atma that would make physical damage taken go down to 12% of what it would hit a normal player for? Makes soloing Alfred that much easier, although no procs means very little drops. Doubt you could say you can solo anything harder than a bee in West Saru.

[Karbuncle]

So i didn't read everything, But has Dallas provided 1 single shred of evidence to support his argument?

I personally believe SMN melee has a very very small place inside Abyssea, But I'm not delusion to think it will out DD good DD, just that it will slightly improve our over-all damage output.

But even so, Arguing non-stop while not providing even a single shred of evidence to support your argument seems like something only crazy/wrong players do. (I.E They realize they have no proof and their argument doesn't hold water but they're too proud to admit it so they act like an idiot by making fun of people against them in hopes people will eventually give up so they can save face and act like they won)

[Dallas]

And yes, I still enjoy Ducal Guard.
That atma was discovered as a byproduct of the pursuit of a better melee SMN. You should be thankful that someone out here does ignore the theorycrafters.

[Leonlionheart]

I only use Myrkr at 300% TP. That means every time I use it, I hit something. All the math in the world isn't going to convince me my staff is inaccurate.

People need to skill up their staves and find something they can't hit. I know what I can't hit. Abyssea gnats while using tank atma. The little buggers have TP reset too, so I avoid these guys like the plague.

Actually having skill goes a long way towards filtering out 90% of baseless claims. I don't even address them. The poster knows the difference between fact and fiction.

I have capped skill on war but not capped accuracy. WAR gets 20+12+7 accuracy in gear, SMN gets at most like 18... They have the same skill.

Edit: fighting general NMs for red in most situations.

[Korpg]

That atma was discovered as a byproduct of the pursuit of a better melee SMN. You should be thankful that someone out here does ignore the theorycrafters.

Ok, how so? How was Ducal Guard "discovered" as a byproduct when the 3 things it does is purely defensive purposes only?

Guard damge -: Superior? When does melee SMN have guard skill at all? Before you answer, yes, I know that avatars have 100% guard on it, but that is besides the point. Why would any melee SMN look into that when they don't have that skill at all?

Less than 50% HP, Damage taken -50%? Only time you really see that come to play is when you have hate, and you are NOT supposed to have hate at all. Anybody with a brain can realize that SMN + death = no avatar. Since before the nerf (and after) the second portion of the atma couldn't be actually seen (even at 100% health the guard damage reduced the damage down to 0-3 damage per hit, kindof hard to tell a 50% reduction of damage taken at 50% health when the damage stays the same).

Movement speed down at less than 50%? WTF?

I think you are just throwing that out to say "I discovered this so you better bow down to me and love me!" Since you are the only melee SMN out there.

[Korpg]

I have capped skill on war but not capped accuracy. WAR gets 20+12+7 accuracy in gear, SMN gets at most like 18... They have the same skill.

Edit: fighting general NMs for red in most situations.

Don't forget Blue. WARs have as much Blue procs total than any other job, if you include ALL blue procs. Yeah, they suck at piercing, but if you are going to proc blue and have a WAR available, you have a good chance as any with Slashing as most other jobs available (PLD and DRK has almost as many procs, they don't have GA or Axe procs, but they have 1 more GS and Scythe/sword procs than WAR).

[Dallas]

Ok, how so? How was Ducal Guard "discovered" as a byproduct when the 3 things it does is purely defensive purposes only?

Because I'm the only SMN who mastered the job well enough to figure out how to make the tank build work. Outside of Abyssea, the idea failed. Inside, I was already meleeing IT mobs with my tank build pre-DG. DG was a natural progression for me on a path that you won't be following.

You are a nuisance already. I don't want you to bow down to me. I want your presence to reflect your influence.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Egomania much?

[Malamasala]

I have capped skill on war but not capped accuracy. WAR gets 20+12+7 accuracy in gear, SMN gets at most like 18... They have the same skill.

Edit: fighting general NMs for red in most situations.

Well, what do you mean with capped accuracy? I whiff a lot on the high level THF mobs. I hit most hits on everything else on my DNC. My DNC wears less accuracy gear than my SMN, but they are of course B+ vs B in skill difference.

And where do you get 18 accuracy in gear from anyway? There are plenty of accuracy gear, the question is if you want to drop -perp for them. Peacock charm alone is 10 accuracy. One accuracy ring is often 7-8. Tiphia sting is like 2 I believe. And we are still not removing any -perp gear yet. You can get 10 accuracy on the legs slot, which otherwise is at best 1 refresh. Swapping out the head piece loses you another 2 refresh, but grants you some 15 acc or so.

If you just don't mind losing some low speed MP regain, you can get good accuracy for Myrkr Tping. I've still not seen that good selection of haste gear though.

[Korpg]

Because I'm the only SMN who mastered the job well enough to figure out how to make the tank build work. Outside of Abyssea, the idea failed. Inside, I was already meleeing IT mobs with my tank build pre-DG. DG was a natural progression for me on a path that you won't be following.

You were meleeing IT mobs with a tank build? Wait, does SMN even HAVE a tank build? Are you now saying that a SMN can tank better than a PLD?

Of course outside of abyssea the idea will fail, SMNs are not tanks. Besides, you didn't master anything if you have such a narrow minded view of the job that its "my way or highway" attitude towards anyone who isn't you.

Congratulations on meleeing IT mobs, want a cookie? While it would take you what, 3 minutes to kill an IT mob, I can do the same as a non-melee SMN in less than one minute. Good for you! Plus, I wouldn't have to worry about any TP moves either, because the mob dies in less time it take for it to use more than 1 TP move. That's because, well, I'm not feeding it TP like you are.


You are a nuisance already. I don't want you to bow down to me. I want your presence to reflect your influence.

I'm here to "dethrone the king" so to say. Although you are not even close to being a serf in anyone's eyes, much less a king.

[Sparthos]

People still arguing w/Dallas? He's clearly delusional.

[Korpg]

People still arguing w/Dallas? He's clearly delusional.

For some reason, I thought I could help him see the light. Maybe when enough people tell him how wrong he is into thinking that he can out damage any other job, he might accept that and be quiet.

[Razushu]

People still arguing w/Dallas? He's clearly delusional.
it's fun to watch him repeatedly make a fool out of himself

[Dallas]

People still arguing w/Dallas? He's clearly delusional.

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

[Korpg]

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

ITT: Melee Summoners have been beating relics for years now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I have a parse of a BP/release Smn beating a V Bhuj War clearly this means your argument is invalid.

[Dallas]

Korpg, you still pretending you know how to read?

[Korpg]

Korpg, you still pretending you know how to read?

Dallas, you still pretending you know how to DD?

[Dallas]

I have a parse of a BP/release Smn beating a V Bhuj War clearly this means your argument is invalid.
You have failed to produce it, so my point stands.

[Korpg]

You have failed to produce it, so my point stands.

You have also failed to produce your parse stating you have beaten a Ukon WAR. So your point still fails.

[Dallas]

Korpg, I'm not maintaining 2 threads for you to play fanboy. This thread will die without me, so have fun.

[Korpg]

Korpg, I'm not maintaining 2 threads for you to play fanboy. This thread will die without me, so have fun.

You promise?

[Razushu]

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

A SMN buffing the party will cause the party to do more damage and take less. Not to mention the support the the SMN gives will just generall help the party run smoother. Sure your SMN would parse higher but the overall differnce would be negligible if any at all. This of course is assuming we're fighting a monster that is weak enough to allow a SMN to melee safely on.

[Leonlionheart]

Lie to yourself. BP/release SMN have failed to produce a single parse in 6 years. Melee SMN parses started showing up 5 years ago. Until you get off *your* butt, I have to assume you are still sitting on it.

Obviously BP/release SMN won't produce parses since they are obviously dealing less damage than Melee SMNs. However damage output isn't the real draw of SMN in the first place.

There are way too many problems with Melee SMN for them to be applicable outside of Abyssea at the moment.

[Razushu]

Obviously BP/release SMN won't produce parses since they are obviously dealing less damage than Melee SMNs. However damage output isn't the real draw of SMN in the first place.

There are way too many problems with Melee SMN for them to be applicable outside of Abyssea at the moment.

No one ever said BP/release SMN can out DD SMN melee but it out supports it.

[Korpg]

Why would any SMN just BP/release in Abyssea anyway, since that is what we are talking about.

Outside of Abyssea, only well geared SMNs can keep their avatars out indefinably.

[Razushu]

Why would any SMN just BP/release in Abyssea anyway, since that is what we are talking about.

Outside of Abyssea, only well geared SMNs can keep their avatars out indefinably.

I tend to cycle buffs if I'm in a party, although I don't spend that much time in abyssea other than soloing merits.

[Korpg]

well, if you want to cycle buffs, who's to stop you?

My avatars are strong enough to take quite a few hits (with or without atmas) to just send one buff, BP about twice (more depending on what I'm fighting and if I'm in a party or not) and leave it like that.

[Razushu]

well, if you want to cycle buffs, who's to stop you?

My avatars are strong enough to take quite a few hits (with or without atmas) to just send one buff, BP about twice (more depending on what I'm fighting and if I'm in a party or not) and leave it like that.

No one except the guys in the relic staff thread lol. It's just a way I've come to feel maximizes my contribution. This of course is outside abyssea/solo. If I'm solo it's assault BP resummon repeat til monster death

[Korpg]

No one except the guys in the relic staff thread lol. It's just a way I've come to feel maximizes my contribution. This of course is outside abyssea/solo. If I'm solo it's assault BP resummon repeat til monster death

Actually, I think Al wouldn't mind having to cycle thru buffs.

[Razushu]

Actually, I think Al wouldn't mind having to cycle thru buffs.

Not talking bout Al it's Dallas and the anti-SMN brigade that say I can't

[Korpg]

Not talking bout Al it's Dallas and the anti-SMN brigade that say I can't

I wouldn't think of the other people as anti-SMN, but more of broadly anti-melee-SMN and specifically anti-Dallas-ideaology brigade.

[Razushu]

I wouldn't think of the other people as anti-SMN, but more of broadly anti-melee-SMN and specifically anti-Dallas-ideaology brigade.

Nah I mean the ones that say I can't support a party lol

I've yet to meet someone thats pro-Dallas but himself, except the person that kept insisting SMN was like DRK or DRG(but even then there was less arrogance by far)

[Korpg]

Nah I mean the ones that say I can't support a party lol

I've yet to meet someone thats pro-Dallas but himself, except the person that kept insisting SMN was like DRK or DRG(but even then there was less arrogance by far)

He probably meant broken jobs.

[Razushu]

He probably meant broken jobs.

Nope said SMN was designed as a melee with MP like DRK and SE forgot to add the traits/abilities and goofed by not putting it on the same gear as DRK, DRG etc.

[Atomic_Skull]

DRGs are mediocre at best, the recent DRK changes are essentially a kick in the teeth to them, and rangers get absolutely 0 love.

Drakesbane is still the strongest non Empyrean WS in the game and their AF3 is one of the strongest sets 5% haste feet and 6% haste head both with huge ACC/ATT bonuses)

Yeah Ukon WAR is better, but Ukon WAR is hax and is better than everything.

[Aliekber]

Drakesbane is still the strongest non Empyrean WS in the game and their AF3 is one of the strongest sets 5% haste feet and 6% haste head both with huge ACC/ATT bonuses)

Yeah Ukon WAR is better, but Ukon WAR is hax and is better than everything.

I thought that math people decided that it comes down to buffs and situation regarding who wins in a contest between a perfectly-geared Ukon WAR and a perfectly-geared Ryunohige DRG?

(In any case, it doesn't really disprove your point, just thought I'd bring it up in case I'm mistaken)

[Malamasala]

Nope said SMN was designed as a melee with MP like DRK and SE forgot to add the traits/abilities and goofed by not putting it on the same gear as DRK, DRG etc.

I love how just skip mentioning that you yourself claimed it was like a WHM or BLM, forgetting to add the spells/abilities. (But I'll give you a gold star for being so smart that you can say that if SMN and WHM wears the same armors, they are the same job. Good job!)

[Malamasala]

Of course if anyone wonders why SMN and DRK would be similar, it is because of the following points.

SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user
SMN has MP = DRK has MP
SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)
SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

[Razushu]

I love how just skip mentioning that you yourself claimed it was like a WHM or BLM, forgetting to add the spells/abilities. (But I'll give you a gold star for being so smart that you can say that if SMN and WHM wears the same armors, they are the same job. Good job!)

I never claimed it was like a BLM or WHM don't put words in my mouth. SMN was designed as a PET JOB this is all I said. It is however far closer in concept to a WHM or BLM than a DRK. Take your vision of SMN to the DRK forums,see how many laughs you get before thread lock

[Razushu]

Of course if anyone wonders why SMN and DRK would be similar, it is because of the following points.

SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user
SMN has MP = DRK has MP
SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)
SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

First off I never said that you can't gear a SMN to melee(every job in this game can be geared to melee). If the mob is safe to melee go ahead.

1)SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user

so is WHM, SCH and BLM

2)SMN has MP = DRK has MP

MP is not a melee trait see SAM, NIN and WAR

3)SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)

In a party SMN is probably cycling avatar's to give buffs unless the target is so weak the buffs are superflous(in which case go nuts lol). Solo unless the target is of kitten level danger the avatar will stay out til fight ends. If the monster is tough chances are you will need a recast, in which case hate=death if your avatar can't pull hate off you with a single BP chances are you are about to die.

4)SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

Except in this case BPs are pet commands, and are more akin to spells in fact are designed that way (Hastega= spell haste)

5)The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

what game are you playing? honestly

6)That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

again SMN=/=DRK

lets break it down

FF Canon* SMN=Backline mage DRK= HEAVY DD

physical toughness SMN=weakest in the game DRK= up there with the top tier

Gear SMN= CLoth armor DRK= heavy armor

Weapons SMN= mainly stat boosting DRK= DD mostly

Highest weapon skills SMN= B DRK=A+

access to weapon skills SMN= missing several DRK= gets all natively

Job traits SMN=non offensive DRK= pretty offensive

Job abilities SMN= supportive DRK = mostly offense based

*I know in this game it's not always the case, but for the most part it seems to remain true

I don't think I missed anything but a comparison side to side points out the flaws in your theory. For the record I'm not attacking SMN melee, I just take issue with the SMN = Heavy DD view point.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

First off DRK can get a max of 18% cure potency(if the waste ASA and MKD rewards on it) have a tiny MP pool and not much in the way of MP management gear, Then add in the fact they have no native way of buffing/curing a party your and your argument has more holes than a fishing net. I can't decide whether your trolling or not and I kinda hope you are

[Duelle]

SMN=Backline mage

<snip>

For the record I'm not attacking SMN melee, I just take issue with the SMN = Heavy DD view point.The problem on a concept level is that SMN is about heavy damage dealing...coming from the avatar/eidolon/summon. That's why people remembered Rydia in IV, Dagger and Eiko in IX, and hell, even Yuna in X.

On the spellcasting side, summoners prior to XI's incarnation were backed up by a secondary school of magic. The devs assumed this would be covered by the subjob system, until people figured out that elemental spells cast at half-level profficiency due to skill ratings were (rightfully) stupidly gimp. The fact that healing spells had no such penalty did nothing to help.

[Razushu]

The problem on a concept level is that SMN is about heavy damage dealing...coming from the avatar/eidolon/summon. That's why people remembered Rydia in IV, Dagger and Eiko in IX, and hell, even Yuna in X.

On the spellcasting side, summoners prior to XI's incarnation were backed up by a secondary school of magic. The devs assumed this would be covered by the subjob system, until people figured out that elemental spells cast at half-level profficiency due to skill ratings were (rightfully) stupidly gimp. The fact that healing spells had no such penalty did nothing to help.


Summons were the most poswerful magic in the games, but they seem to have ditched Massive damage for damage/support combo here.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The various jobs are all designed to be INCOMPLETE! This was done to foster party-based play.

You mean like how monks can do lots of damage, but can't tank?

One problem right now is that everybody looks at the horribly broken jobs and wants to be equally broken. This is probably because they know that SE is afraid to nerf even the worst balance problems, so the broken uberjobs will stay that way.

Another is that nobody invites damage dealers to deal damage, so jobs like DRG and SCH which can do plenty of damage are still passed over because people only care about procs and those jobs don't have them. Once you have your procs covered you have enough DDs to kill whatever, so why bother inviting more people to split up the loot?

[Duelle]

Summons were the most poswerful magic in the games, but they seem to have ditched Massive damage for damage/support combo here.Which kind of failed in the context of parties because of how the trends developed when it came to summoner.

Granted, the job is not an easy one to adapt to an MMO context. The avatars would have probably benefitted from having specialized roles rather than being capable of attacking with some support. Then you could have your damage dealing avatars (probably Ifrit, Leviathan, Garuda, Ramuh), your defensive/healing avatars (Carbuncle, Shiva), and your tanking/utility avatars (Titan, Fenrir). Spirits could have been more like "aspects" that act as that second school of magic that I mentioned Summoners prior to XI were known to have. That might have created a better basis of what the job could/should be capable of instead of being so reliant on its subjob to fill in the gaps between blood pacts (this refers to back when it was a universal 1-minute timer, not the rage/ward split that came much later).

[Malamasala]

The avatars would have probably benefitted from having specialized roles rather than being capable of attacking with some support.

No they wouldn't. The job is pretty much perfect as is, except for the penalties applied. It should be a moderate DD and moderate support, but it is a slightly below moderate DD and useless support. Less global timers, slightly less MP costs, more ward potency and viola, perfection.

Well, you'd have to tweak avatars favors too if you want to count it as useful, and same with spirits. But Summoners have all tools they'd ever need... if they worked.