[dev1017] Yonin/Innin

[wish12oz]

While separating the timers for these abilities is indeed a step in the right direction, it doesn't fix the inherent problem with these abilities.

Innin is completely useless to anyone that knows how to play ninja. It takes all of 30-40 seconds to cap your enmity, and after that as long as you had the last action on the mob, the mob will be facing you, and ninjas attack really fast, meaning the mob will just about always be facing you meaning the only effect you get from innin is -evasion, and maybe 1 attack out of 20 you'll gain the crit rate increase from it. To fix innin you need to remove the "You must stand behind the mob" requirement from it.

Yonin also has it's problems. Yonin is designed to increase a ninjas enmity and help them tank by giving them an evasion boost, but it fails miserably at increasing your ability to keep hate. It seems like the Dev team doesn't understand how ninjas tank and when the job is useful, so I will explain it. Ninja is only useful for tanking weaker mobs. This means mobs that you can do effective damage on, and not be completely crushed by jobs like war, sam, drk, etc. So their level cannot be much higher then yours, they also cannot have lots of defense or evasion either. Before abyssea, this consisted of dynamis, limbus, einherjar and weak NMs, like serket, or roc or farming pops for sky gods and fighting things like ullikummi or mother globe.

Now why is yonin useless? It's because it was very very hard to cap your acc without using sushi due to katanas being 1 handed weapons, and since they are 1 handed weapons you also suffer from a low attack value, so what you really want to use is good attack food, not pizza or sushi. So knowing that you're only good for DD tanking, and understanding that you can barely cap acc if you even can cap acc, why does this JA that is suppose to help you tank start off with -30 acc? thats -15% hit rate, or -15% damage, whichever way you want to look at it. And as I said when talking about innin, if you have as much enmity as someone else, whoever had the last action is going to be tanking, so you really need that 15% hit rate to stay on top of the mobs attention. The minus accuracy effect of yonin needs to be removed for it to be useful, and in all honesty, it would be really nice if it actually increased accuracy by 30, it's suppose to be helping you tank after all, and being able to cap acc without food on harder mobs would be very helpful in that respect.

This brings me to another point, why is ninja so popular right now? The answer is simple, it's not popular right now, it's always been popular, the problem was that it use to not be very useful, but right now, since EVERYTHING is weak and can be DD tanked, ninja is back on top of the world and people can play it to their hearts content. Personally, I would like to see ninja stay this way since I am biased and it is my favorite job, so I really hope that in the future with further updates SE will seriously look at the inherent problems with ninja and fix them so that it can be useful all the time, and not just on weak mobs.

[Bulrogg]

I'm glad to here the two JA will not have seperate timers but I'm still curious as to why the Devs placed a position requirement on yonin/innin in the first place. Knowing that it is easy to cap hate without the use of Yonin, did they envision two ninjas standing opposite sides of a mob and using Innin to lock it down into position while dual tanking? Yes I know that with the mob turning back and forth one of the NIN will not be gaining the boost from Innin 100% of the time. Yes I know the mob could die faster with a different setup, etc... I'm not here to argue any of that. I'm just curious why the devs felt the need to add a position restriction in the first place before I hop onto a "remove position restriction" bandwagon.

[Juilan]

I'm glad to here the two JA will not have seperate timers but I'm still curious as to why the Devs placed a position requirement on yonin/innin in the first place. Knowing that it is easy to cap hate without the use of Yonin, did they envision two ninjas standing opposite sides of a mob and using Innin to lock it down into position while dual tanking? Yes I know that with the mob turning back and forth one of the NIN will not be gaining the boost from Innin 100% of the time. Yes I know the mob could die faster with a different setup, etc... I'm not here to argue any of that. I'm just curious why the devs felt the need to add a position restriction in the first place before I hop onto a "remove position restriction" bandwagon.

two nin standing on opposite sides of the monster... sounds like how i leveled it til 37... and warrior and every other melee job from 24 - 37 less thf... maybe the devs dont have the first genkai over with

[Brigandier]

While separating the timers for these abilities is indeed a step in the right direction, it doesn't fix the inherent problem with these abilities.

Innin is completely useless to anyone that knows how to play ninja. It takes all of 30-40 seconds to cap your enmity, and after that as long as you had the last action on the mob, the mob will be facing you, and ninjas attack really fast, meaning the mob will just about always be facing you meaning the only effect you get from innin is -evasion, and maybe 1 attack out of 20 you'll gain the crit rate increase from it. To fix innin you need to remove the "You must stand behind the mob" requirement from it.

Yonin also has it's problems. Yonin is designed to increase a ninjas enmity and help them tank by giving them an evasion boost, but it fails miserably at increasing your ability to keep hate. It seems like the Dev team doesn't understand how ninjas tank and when the job is useful, so I will explain it. Ninja is only useful for tanking weaker mobs. This means mobs that you can do effective damage on, and not be completely crushed by jobs like war, sam, drk, etc. So their level cannot be much higher then yours, they also cannot have lots of defense or evasion either. Before abyssea, this consisted of dynamis, limbus, einherjar and weak NMs, like serket, or roc or farming pops for sky gods and fighting things like ullikummi or mother globe.

Now why is yonin useless? It's because it was very very hard to cap your acc without using sushi due to katanas being 1 handed weapons, and since they are 1 handed weapons you also suffer from a low attack value, so what you really want to use is good attack food, not pizza or sushi. So knowing that you're only good for DD tanking, and understanding that you can barely cap acc if you even can cap acc, why does this JA that is suppose to help you tank start off with -30 acc? thats -15% hit rate, or -15% damage, whichever way you want to look at it. And as I said when talking about innin, if you have as much enmity as someone else, whoever had the last action is going to be tanking, so you really need that 15% hit rate to stay on top of the mobs attention. The minus accuracy effect of yonin needs to be removed for it to be useful, and in all honesty, it would be really nice if it actually increased accuracy by 30, it's suppose to be helping you tank after all, and being able to cap acc without food on harder mobs would be very helpful in that respect.

This brings me to another point, why is ninja so popular right now? The answer is simple, it's not popular right now, it's always been popular, the problem was that it use to not be very useful, but right now, since EVERYTHING is weak and can be DD tanked, ninja is back on top of the world and people can play it to their hearts content. Personally, I would like to see ninja stay this way since I am biased and it is my favorite job, so I really hope that in the future with further updates SE will seriously look at the inherent problems with ninja and fix them so that it can be useful all the time, and not just on weak mobs.

While I agree that your suggestions might help make Yonin/Innin better from a "making ninja more powerful" perspective, the questions SE has to answer really come down to "How broken are we actually going to make this job?", "what direction do we want to take this job?", and "what jobs are getting screwed if we buff this job?". Ninja is a good all-rounder right now, and comparing my ninja (which is non-emp, medium grade) to other jobs, I am amazed NIN hasn't been swatted down a notch or two. If further changes were to happen to Yonin/Innin, I would be satisfied with a lowered timer and same functionality.

You've pointed out the biggest issue with Ninja (and a few other jobs) at the end of your post. Ninja is getting use because it's able to do numerous things well; however, when the nerf happens or the jobs we replaced get buffed we're going to be right back on the "do not invite" list. What Ninja needs is something it does *best*, something that no other job can do. In fact, all jobs should have a niche that no other job can fill. Considering how the abyssea proc system works (and the new weird dynamis JA procs) it's easy to see that SE is trying to give everyone a reason to bring along that "other job" when they otherwise wouldn't. There just isn't enough job class disparity, and this is why most career NINs are stupid to not have a job that does have that "special something" like Treasure Hunter.

[wish12oz]

While I agree that your suggestions might help make Yonin/Innin better from a "making ninja more powerful" perspective, the questions SE has to answer really come down to "How broken are we actually going to make this job?", "what direction do we want to take this job?"

The buffs proposed would only make ninja closer to being on even footing on easy mobs in terms of damage it can deal when compared to the top tier Melees. On harder mobs even with these adjustments ninja would still be lacking. The only proof of this I can offer is the Ukons in my einherjar LS do about 25% more damage then my ninja, and I have perfect tp/ws gear, while they are close to perfect, but not there, they can actually improve a bit, I cannot. The crit rate increase from using Innin full time would even that out on weak mobs, like those in einherjar, but for harder mobs ninja would still suffer from the lack of attack, the long delay between WS's compared to other jobs, and the low WS damage in comparison to melee damage. WAR for instance is about a 40%melee/60%ws damage split. Ninja is the opposite, 60/40 and only if you have blade: Hi, if you're using jin its more like 70%melee 30%ws.

Not to mention the fact that Jin and Hi are both only good if they can crit, which is exceedingly hard on higher lvl mobs, because capping dDEX can become difficult, and outside of atmas, your crit rate caps at 25% from ddex/merits, and with gear you can really only push it to 39%, allowing the use of innin would help tremendously with WS's as well for harder mobs where you cant cap ddex and lose that 20% crit rate.


You've pointed out the biggest issue with Ninja (and a few other jobs) at the end of your post. Ninja is getting use because it's able to do numerous things well; however, when the nerf happens or the jobs we replaced get buffed we're going to be right back on the "do not invite" list. What Ninja needs is something it does *best*, something that no other job can do. In fact, all jobs should have a niche that no other job can fill. Considering how the abyssea proc system works (and the new weird dynamis JA procs) it's easy to see that SE is trying to give everyone a reason to bring along that "other job" when they otherwise wouldn't. There just isn't enough job class disparity, and this is why most career NINs are stupid to not have a job that does have that "special something" like Treasure Hunter.

There doesn't need to be any sort of nerf or buff to other jobs to make ninja go back to the bottom, all SE has to do is add slightly harder mobs then there is right now.

Ninja already has it's niche btw, it's the DD tank. When you need something that can do damage and keep hate and not take tons of damage, ninja is the go-to job, but only if the mobs are weak, ninja fails completely on anything it can't melee well enough to keep hate off other melees. Good post though.

[Brigandier]

The buffs proposed would only make ninja closer to being on even footing on easy mobs in terms of damage it can deal when compared to the top tier Melees.It's hard to convey my tone through text, so please read this in a very serious and not trolling/being hateful way lol. Ninja has always been the job where either half the people cry that they can't DD with the top tier DDs, or they can't tank with the PLDs and RDMs (or sometimes they even want both). You even have some hilarious instances where people complain about ninjutsu nukes being useless compared to other nuking jobs. I can agree that our current niche is DD tanking, but there are several other jobs that can /NIN up and do the same such as THF or DNC (on the same medium grade mobs we tank, that is).

I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome improvements to Ninja, I am just saying that I doubt SE wants to bring it up to that level. After all, they've already nailed us with an A- rating on Katana, the weapon only NINs can use. It's almost like they said "let's make a job that does everything, just not as well as jobs that specialize".

NINJA EDIT: I also played WHM back in the day RDMs were making it look stupid, but SE actually stepped up and added more oomph and gave WHM its niche back; unfortunately, now RDM seems to be back burnered much the way NIN used to be. What do?

[wish12oz]

It's hard to convey my tone through text, so please read this in a very serious and not trolling/being hateful way lol. Ninja has always been the job where either half the people cry that they can't DD with the top tier DDs, or they can't tank with the PLDs and RDMs (or sometimes they even want both).

I want both, back before the tp floor nerf, dual wield nerf, and 2 handed update, NIN had both. Us oldschool people want it back, not to be that way for the first time. PLD should be more for mobs you want a tank on when you can't deal with it having lots of TP, and need lots of defensive abilities and to absorb most of the mobs damage. Ninja is the tank that should be used when mob TP isn't of much importance and you need something to absorb a lot of damage. For a short period of time, this is how it actually worked, and if they just increased NINs damage potential a bit we could have it back, provided whoever is playing the ninja is good at it.

EDIT::: WAR is the tank when damage taken just plain doesn't matter =3


I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome improvements to Ninja, I am just saying that I doubt SE wants to bring it up to that level. After all, they've already nailed us with an A- rating on Katana, the weapon only NINs can use. It's almost like they said "let's make a job that does everything, just not as well as jobs that specialize".

Ninja has A- Katana because it was a balance issue, because they got so many A skills, they didn't want to make any of them A+, but they wanted them all to be high, so they got a bunch of A-'s.


NINJA EDIT: I also played WHM back in the day RDMs were making it look stupid, but SE actually stepped up and added more oomph and gave WHM its niche back; unfortunately, now RDM seems to be back burnered much the way NIN used to be. What do?

WHM was never really bad, you just didn't need cure 5, and when you did, people brought WHMs, like they brought them to HNMs. RDM is the same right now, if you need the enhanced enfeebling ability or increased MP it offers, people bring them, like to voidwatch.

[wish12oz]

So I went and fought some of the higher level dynamis mobs today, and my acc was only about 85% on ninja, on VTs, not even IT mobs. Not using acc food, not using yonin, using 475 total accuracy in gear/skill/dex, I could only manage an 85% hit rate. This is really as much as you can get on ninja (mithra no less) before you start making major cuts into your damage potential by swapping in accuracy gear, and it's horrible. If I had as much acc and dex on my WAR gear as I do on my NIN, I would be way over cap. This is seriously becoming a problem again SE. Don't let us ninjas down, cut us a break, don't send us back to being a crap job people don't want to play.

Just for refferance, if I used Yonin, my accuracy would of been 70% when I first used it, going up to 80% before it wore off, so my new average would of been 75%, that's just ridiculous, these aren't even HNMs I'm talking about, these are weak exp level range mobs.

[Cdryik]

With the lack of accuracy, Yonin doesn't help to much keeping hate if you keep missing, where with Innin you get hate so easily despit of the enmity - on it. Yes, there's a lil problem with Yonin/Innin mechanics actually. the critical hit rate -15% on Yonin could be a better alternative to not be a powerfull DD that can tank also very well (atleast outside of abyssea).

[Ravenmore]

Geuss Acc food got taken out the game and DW never had to eat it in merit or endgame. Also 2handers were eating meat long before the 2hander update.

[noodles355]

Its still bullsh*t that you cant get Yonnin or Innin with a /NIN subjob. Because Dual wield jobs like thief and dancer are already too powerful and keep up with equally skilled/geared 2 hander jobs as it is amirite.

[Ravenmore]

Sure if dnc gives up haste samba and healing, thf you got a point.

[wish12oz]

Geuss Acc food got taken out the game and DW never had to eat it in merit or endgame. Also 2handers were eating meat long before the 2hander update.

If you read my original posts, I talk about why using accuracy food is not acceptable. It's because the best possible ninjas damage is already 30%~ behind a good 2 handers, add acc problems on top of that (-20% hit rate, or -20% damage, however you want to look at it) and you're going to drop to the point where the ninja can't keep hate off the melees at all. Which means the 1 thing ninja is useful in the game, is taken away and ninja is back to being a job no one wants around.

It also means that your going to end up using melees to tank, or intentionally gimping your melees so the ninja can keep hate, neither of these is acceptable honestly, ninja needs the ability to keep hate when the melees are doing what they do. For this to happen the ninja can't be more then 20% damage behind the other melees, like how it is right now inside abyssea.


Its still bullsh*t that you cant get Yonnin or Innin with a /NIN subjob. Because Dual wield jobs like thief and dancer are already too powerful and keep up with equally skilled/geared 2 hander jobs as it is amirite.

Ya, not getting them from subbing ninja is kind of dumb too honestly. SE should just reduce the effectiveness a bit and allow it. (And just to point it out, Noodles is actually being sarcastic here, THF and DNC are much worse off then ninja when it comes to damage potential outside or inside abyssea.)

[Rocman]

I agree with you that Yonnin/Innin need work, but you are talking like you want NIN to be the greatest job out there. Everyone has complaints about thier jobs and everyone wants thier jobs to be the best. Nin has always been a great job and really doesnt need much improvement. I have been tanking on NIN and PLD for years now and honestly i have no problems at all holding hate as NIN tank. PLD on the other hand that really needs work, The acc, the dmg, the lack of holding hate on PLD makes it way too tough to tank.

[noodles355]

Ya, not getting them from subbing ninja is kind of dumb too honestly. SE should just reduce the effectiveness a bit and allow it. (And just to point it out, Noodles is actually being sarcastic here, THF and DNC are much worse off then ninja when it comes to damage potential outside or inside abyssea.)Thanks for stating it, I know sarcasm is hard to read on the intaweb :P

And yes I know dancer is not so much so, but haste samba (merited) pretty much cancels out Hasso from a 2 hander and yet 2H still have better dmg formulas.

[wish12oz]

I agree with you that Yonnin/Innin need work, but you are talking like you want NIN to be the greatest job out there. Everyone has complaints about thier jobs and everyone wants thier jobs to be the best. Nin has always been a great job and really doesnt need much improvement. I have been tanking on NIN and PLD for years now and honestly i have no problems at all holding hate as NIN tank. PLD on the other hand that really needs work, The acc, the dmg, the lack of holding hate on PLD makes it way too tough to tank.

Go play with some real melees, then get back to me.
You on Odin per chance? I'll bring my WAR to hang out with your NIN, we'll see how well you can do.

And how is me saying 'Ninja needs to be within 20% of the other melees" me implying ninja needs to be the best around? I simply ask to be within 20%! wtf............ maybe you're not aware of it, but when someone does 20% more damage then you, that is A LOT.

[Rocman]

Yes i am in Odin, I am sure i could keep hate pretty easily. Between gear, merits, ect it really isnt that tough as NIN. Try PLD and see the huge difference in keeping hate. The only time i really have a problem holding hate is when THF SATA someone else.

[scaevola]

So I went and fought some of the higher level dynamis mobs today, and my acc was only about 85% on ninja, on VTs, not even IT mobs. Not using acc food, not using yonin, using 475 total accuracy in gear/skill/dex, I could only manage an 85% hit rate. This is really as much as you can get on ninja (mithra no less) before you start making major cuts into your damage potential by swapping in accuracy gear, and it's horrible.

So you got 85% accuracy against VT mobs outside Abyssea with no food and no gear slots specifically designated for accuracy over a potentially higher-damage stat spread assuming accuracy were capped?

And you are complaining about this?

[Yarly]

I find it rather odd that most of the people here think that yonin and innin were introduced after abyssea...
Otherwise they wouldn't say stupid things like "does se know how ninjas tank???? omgzddtankonry!1!1!"

[wish12oz]

So you got 85% accuracy against VT mobs outside Abyssea with no food and no gear slots specifically designated for accuracy over a potentially higher-damage stat spread assuming accuracy were capped?

And you are complaining about this?

Mithra, and I was giving up 1.5% haste, some attack and crit damage and lots of dex as well as some dual wield.

[Ravenmore]

Really attack gear has always been lol if you could get acc in that same slot, and unlike the "sushi biulds" stacking as much attack gear as you could eating sushi with cap haste wouldn't hurt you. Before abyssea TPing in crit hit gear added little value WSing it was better. The crit hit weapon you couldn't swap out to WS so had to leave them on, or if you were mnk ther wasn't anything better. On any HNM at 75 no one had 95% acc on them with out food.

[scaevola]

Mithra, and I was giving up 1.5% haste, some attack and crit damage and lots of dex as well as some dual wield.

You had to give up DEX? And 1.5% Haste? Horrors!

Accuracy is supposed to be a meaningful mechanic. Eat pizza.

[wish12oz]

You had to give up DEX? And 1.5% Haste? Horrors!

Accuracy is supposed to be a meaningful mechanic. Eat pizza.

Just because you do not understand the benefit of capping crit rate through DEX, doesn't mean the concept is lost on those of us who like to do good damage.

Also: Ninja was already pretty far behind, losing ANYTHING, makes it more behind then it already was, and unable to be played with a decent group.


Really attack gear has always been lol if you could get acc in that same slot, and unlike the "sushi biulds" stacking as much attack gear as you could eating sushi with cap haste wouldn't hurt you. Before abyssea TPing in crit hit gear added little value WSing it was better. The crit hit weapon you couldn't swap out to WS so had to leave them on, or if you were mnk ther wasn't anything better. On any HNM at 75 no one had 95% acc on them with out food.

So, you think using sushi is ok, when other melees can use their normal gear, and eat meat.
So other melees get a bunch of attack increasing their damage even more, and ninjas get to... gain acc that other melees have no problem with at all.
So in reality the ninja is falling further behind, and the other melees are gaining even more of a damage advantage over the ninja, when the ninja was already 30%+ behind?
This is what you're saying is ok?

The problem is that you have to give up EVERYTHING for acc on NIN to hit a 'not even capped' acc rate. And then on top of that, Yonin, which is suppose to help you tank, actually drops your hit rate by 10% on average. (starts at 15%, moves to 5%)

[Ravenmore]

It has never been accepted to try to cap crit with dex seeing how we do not know mobs stats. We can geuss at it but on Exp mobs that spawn at differnt levels a there would be no way to know for sure if that 10 dex was capping crit hit rate. Thfs only used it on SA/TA since it was a direct mod to the JA it self.

[Ravenmore]

No other duel weild job can hit acc cap out side of abyssea. Before abyssea duel wield jobs had to eat sushi and only one 2hander could hit acc cap with out hasso. Yes I see no problem with it since I play blu, not only do I have to eat sushi outside of abyssea to land melee strikes I also have use it to make sure my spells land. Welcom to hybrid jobs.

[wish12oz]

No other duel weild job can hit acc cap out side of abyssea. Before abyssea duel wield jobs had to eat sushi and only one 2hander could hit acc cap with out hasso. Yes I see no problem with it since I play blu, not only do I have to eat sushi outside of abyssea to land melee strikes I also have use it to make sure my spells land. Welcom to hybrid jobs.

More like "Welcome back to the gutter."
This has been a problem since the 2 handed update and why 1 handed jobs have been crap since then. Want to know why ninjas were not around before abyssea? Because the acc problems made them crap, so all the melees were SAM, WAR, DRG, DRK.... The point of this thread is to call attention to why 1 handed jobs, ninja specifically are crap, and what SE needs to do to further improve yonin/innin to make ninja useful on anything harder then even match.

Maybe you 'see no problem with it' and like being the underdog or whatever, trying so hard to compete and only able to do half the damage of a 2 handed melee, but there are those of us who think this imbalance should be corrected so that there isn't such a large damage differance between 1 handed and 2 handed weapon users on T+ mobs.

Also: it's not very hard to watch your crit rate. You simply count and see if you should add more dex, it's not rocket science, it's simple counting, if you can't do it, I feel bad for you. And having a good crit rate is also helpful since ninja has access to so much +crit damage, so instead of simply doubling your damage when you crit, you can do much more. It's what happens inside abyssea that makes ninja useful, lots of crits, crit damage, and no acc issues without using lolsushi.

[scaevola]

Just because you do not understand the benefit of capping crit rate through DEX, doesn't mean the concept is lost on those of us who like to do good damage.


ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

[wish12oz]

ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

It requires great sacrifice on the part of 1 handed weapon users, and not on the part of 2 handed weapon users, how do you fail to comprehend this, and that it is the problem? Not to mention the fact that as the level cap goes up, dex will increase giving even more of an advantage to 2 handed users.

EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.

[scaevola]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

why, such an advantage might be considered so massive, i could see it being a fair justification for 2-handers to have more-favorable dex>accuracy conversions in the first place!

EDIT: I would not argue that NINs will do less damage than WARs, but the questions (real questions, not rhetorical ones) are

1) how do they do when stacked up against other two-hander jobs, ones that are not considered far and away the strongest job in the game with really no room for debate, and

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

[wish12oz]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

THIS:
EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.


And seriously, even with that increased attack speed, YOU'RE 30% BEHIND ON NINJA. Seriously kid, right now, when acc is not a problem, an ukon war beats a kannagi ninja by 30%, that's with the ninja using the best possible gear and having capped acc and both using meat and having the same buffs. Give both just haste or give both haste and double march, which caps the ninjas delay reduction, and not the wars and the ninja is 30% behind. Give the war capped delay reduction too and you're looking at a 50% damage difference. What I am saying is this is not acceptable. Why you think it is, is just beyond my comprehension apparently.

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

[scaevola]

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni". All these dudes cut loose on the same target and only the NIN and MNK (maybe the SAM) are alive 2 minutes in.

[wish12oz]

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.

[wish12oz]

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni".

This doesn't even make sense.

[scaevola]

This doesn't even make sense.


I am not surprised you think that!


Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

[scaevola]

oh, also, re: you being a sillyhead


Innin is completely useless to anyone that knows how to play ninja. It takes all of 30-40 seconds to cap your enmity, and after that as long as you had the last action on the mob, the mob will be facing you, and ninjas attack really fast, meaning the mob will just about always be facing you meaning the only effect you get from innin is -evasion, and maybe 1 attack out of 20 you'll gain the crit rate increase from it. To fix innin you need to remove the "You must stand behind the mob" requirement from it.


If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

[wish12oz]

I am not surprised you think that!

Why don't you enlighten me then.


So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

If the mobs are difficult at all, no one is maintaining enough damage and survivability to tank effectively. Ninja should be doing it, but its even harder now then it was before the level cap increase, and as I've repeatedly pointed out, ninja was pretty useless before the level cap increase, so it's even more useless now outside of abyssea and old weak content, like sky/einherjar/etc.

But hey, maybe that's why when you go to dynamis there's people fighting EPs, and that's it. Because fighting the VT mobs is to difficult because there's no one that can effectively tank.

And mobs in voidwatch are to difficult for ninja to tank, since your acc is so poor and you can't keep hate, but hey, maybe when they increase the level by 5, you'll be able to manage on weak old content original tier Voidwalkers, but you won't be useful for the new ones, or any other new content they add.

[scaevola]

Why don't you enlighten me then.


On top of at-the-very-least-above-average damage, NIN gets access to the best accuracy/attack rate debuff loadout in the game after RDM, great evasion, nine shadows per Utsu Ni/Ichi rotation to everyone else's six, a "free" subjob slot since everybody else has to sub NIN on anything remotely meaningful, basically a huge skillset that screams "I specialize in not getting hit and thus not dying" more than any other job except PLD.

It is not inappropriate for a job that handles being attacked so incredibly well to do less damage than jobs that don't.



And mobs in voidwatch are to difficult for ninja to tank, since your acc is so poor and you can't keep hate, but hey, maybe when they increase the level by 5, you'll be able to manage on weak old content original tier Voidwalkers, but you won't be useful for the new ones, or any other new content they add.

But again, you could just eat a pizza, cap your accuracy, and tank fine with capped haste/dw because the mob's attacking the last guy that hit it, per your Innin crying, right?

I really do think you're just crying because Voidwatch almost sort of looks like PLD caught a break.

[wish12oz]

If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again. Or, if the mob is to high above you, even with innin your damage is so poor the mob never looks at you, and you end up being a waste of a party slot and just feeding mobs TP for no reason and should of played something else.

And you don't need to do more damage then everyone else, you need to stay on par with them, anything within 20% of everyone else is enough if you're first provoking and have any sort of +enmity. Whether the fights are short or long, this is how it works. If the fights are short, no one will ever get drastically ahead of you enough to pull hate, and if they do it will be with a WS, and the mob will die right after. And if the fights are long, you'll all cap hate at about the same time, and then it's all about you attacking fast and always connecting. If you don't understand such simple game mechanics, maybe that's where you should start reading. Instead of coming into this thread with a lack of understanding and trying to argue against stuff you don't even understand I suggest reading up about it somewhere.


But again, you could just eat a pizza, cap your accuracy, and tank fine with capped haste/dw because the mob's attacking the last guy that hit it, per your Innin crying, right?

I really do think you're just crying because Voidwatch almost sort of looks like PLD caught a break.

You can't eat pizza and stay on par with the other melees, acc food is stupid and pizza wouldn't even cap your accuracy. Why don't you get this?

And I do Voidwatch on WAR or DRK, thanks, I make the ochain tank. And if it dies I tank on WAR or DRK, because even if I was on ninja, I wouldn't have hate, and having hate over the BLMs is important, ninja can't get there, war and drk easily do. If it was feasible at all to bring ninja, I would do it, but ninja is a waste of a party slot and doesn't do enough damage to justify the tp it gives the mobs. Other jobs have much better damage/tp ratios, as well as just plain doing 20x more then a ninja, and can at least hold hate if the ochain dies. Where as ninja couldn't even get hate if the ochain dies, so all that evasion and those shadows it has are useless.

[scaevola]

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity,

lol

HEAR THAT, PLDS?

[wish12oz]

lol

HEAR THAT, PLDS?

Cause PLD cap enmity only through damage amirite!? It's not like they use JAs, or Flash or any of that, whats ninja have again? oh ya, provoke.
Did you even read that whole paragraph I wrote, or did you just not get it?

Here I'll post it again for you since you don't seem to understand.

Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again. Or, if the mob is to high above you, even with innin your damage is so poor the mob never looks at you, and you end up being a waste of a party slot and just feeding mobs TP for no reason and should of played something else.

[Ravenmore]

It was the same before the 2hander update since the best exp mob in the game took pircing dmg like thier was no tomarrow, sams used polearms drgs got acc JTs. Or how bout the 5 years beore the 2hander update duel weild was king.

Also SE nerfing /drk makes thier postion clear.

[wish12oz]

It was the same before the 2hander update since the best exp mob in the game took pircing dmg like thier was no tomarrow, sams used polearms drgs got acc JTs. Or how bout the 5 years beore the 2hander update duel weild was king.

So because dual wielding was better for 2-3 years, that means it being inferior for the last 5 and continuing this on into the future forever is ok? How about we just balance it out so they do the same amount. Piercing weak mobs have nothing to do with this conversation.

And ya, /drk nerf, ninja get hate from being first provoke, and doing decent damage. If they don't do decent damage they don't tank, and ninja cannot do decent damage compared to other melees on anything above tough, and needs this looked at, end of discussion.

[Ravenmore]

You have no idea how /drk and could cap hate faster then a JA spaming pld. Back before the nerf to spells like sleep bind poision if you were not /drk on HNM you failed.

[wish12oz]

You have no idea how /drk and could cap hate faster then a JA spaming pld. Back before the nerf to spells like sleep bind poision if you were not /drk on HNM you failed.

If you brought ninjas you failed, PLD held hate better, had more defensive abilities and did more damage (atonement says hi)

BTW, is this you: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Scaevola ?
nice ninja.

[Ravenmore]

PLD didn't get atonement till the end of ToAU, so rite there it shows how little you really know about the game or how its changed. Before then NIN/drk held more hate only way for them to pull ahead was go /rdm and do the same but give up shadows.

[wish12oz]

PLD didn't get atonement till the end of ToAU, so rite there it shows how little you really know about the game or how its changed. Before then NIN/drk held more hate only way for them to pull ahead was go /rdm and do the same but give up shadows.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, but I will do my best.

2 handed update/atonement both came at the end of of TOA, towards the end of 2007, which was SHOCK right when people stopped using nin/drk and started using pld/nin.

Wings release date: November 20, 2007 thus marking the end of TOA.
Two handed update: (08/14/2007)
Google is your friend.

Anyway, I fail to see how any of this means I dunno whats been happening. NIN/DRK was like late late 2005 at the earliest, til 2007, so MAYBE 2 years.
PLD/NIN (and rdm/nin) was from 2007, til the second abyssea expansion, which was like 6? months ago. So it's easily double or triple the time frame of being good, as the time frame for nin/drk. Who would of thought you meant before the updates to PLD JAs and the addition of atonement, I was thinking we were talking about how its been for the last FIVE YEARS and we were not talking about before the updates that made it good, since it would be silly to talk about PLD before those updates.
Want the specific answer?
PLD/WAR til sometime mid 2005, then NIN/WAR, after that switching to NIN/DRK around beginning of 2006 maybe, then PLD/NIN from mid-end of 2007 til 6 months ago, even though people were using PLD/NIN since the PLD JA update, it didn't completely take over til atonement, after abyssea expansion 2 we switched back to NIN/WAR and MNK since everything was suddenly easy.

What were we argueing again? Was it my knowledge I acquired actually doing HNMs and endgame FFXI content since 2004? oh, thats right, we were talking about why ninja is a terrible job that needs improvements. Try to stay on topic if you can.

[Ravenmore]

Way earlier then 2007, before it was drk it was brd/nin and nin/brd. There was also a time when shadows block all spells and you were retarded to bring anything but nin to tank.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That was like 2005 when that (utsusemei blocking any spell) got nerfed, probably earlier. Shield blocks blocking all damage was also nerfed around that year, or a little earlier.

[wish12oz]

Way earlier then 2007, before it was drk it was brd/nin and nin/brd. There was also a time when shadows block all spells and you were retarded to bring anything but nin to tank.

/brd tanking was with the introduction of raptor mazurka, which was way after /drk, for someone who claims to be all knowledgeable, you dropped the ball there. It was also nerfed before much came of it, so who cares.

Also, people didn't actually use ninja tanks much before shadows were nerfed in that way.

Would you like to try again? Or concede that you actually have nothing worthwhile to contribute?

[Neisan_Quetz]

I did hear of Nin soloing KB at 50(?) cap due to Meteor being absorbed by 1 shadow, which might have convinced SE to nerf it when they did.

Or so I heard.

[Leonlionheart]

When you said NIN is good for tanking weaker mobs is where you lost me, leaving me to think "OP is an idiot."

Once I think the OP is an idiot, then the rest of the thread becomes idiotic.

Maybe they tanked weaker mobs pre abyssea, but now...

Anyway if you don't like them the JAs, don't use them.

[Ravenmore]

And your droping the ball saying give up 1.5% haste is all that bad for nin when they can hit the delay cap with 60% haste. Also how was your DDs hitting acc cap at 75 on HNm or anything harder then merit crap. If you mad that nin can't hit acc cap and tank on merit mob sorry no one needed tank for that for a long time. If you mad that you can't do it on HNM then sorry no one did that before the level increase.

[wish12oz]

When you said NIN is good for tanking weaker mobs is where you lost me, leaving me to think "OP is an idiot."

So you used ninja at like, khim, tiamat, di, kb, etc before the level cap rise right? How about now, do you use ninja to tank voidwatch mobs? hows it do? Oh, you didn't do any of that since 2007? and ninja is terrible in voidwatch? oh, guess my point stands, ninja isn't a good tank for overly high level/difficulty mobs. Feel free to argue against my logic if you like, maybe provide some insight into why you think ninja is so amazing outside abyssea.

Anyway, I went to try and figure out when nin/drk became the thing to use, so I could be more precise with a time line, and I went to Rukenshins old livejournal, cause you know, he was the one that started the whole thing. And it appears the original post was from 8/28/2006, which is much much later then I was thinking. This would be the point nin/drk took off, so nin/drks time in the sun was 1 year, thats it.

[Ravenmore]

Really you believe what one player wrote on thier blog.

[wish12oz]

And your droping the ball saying give up 1.5% haste is all that bad for nin when they can hit the delay cap with 60% haste. Also how was your DDs hitting acc cap at 75 on HNm or anything harder then merit crap. If you mad that nin can't hit acc cap and tank on merit mob sorry no one needed tank for that for a long time. If you mad that you can't do it on HNM then sorry no one did that before the level increase.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/209903
This is the set you want to use.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/197127
This is the set you're forced into using, with an acc magian katana and an acc ring instead of rajas. And even with it, your acc is a measly 80%

Now, tell me if you can figure out why set 1 does 15%->20% more damage then set 2 provided you have capped acc.
And if your acc is a bit low, or you need a bit of dex to cap crit rate, see if you can figure out why using af3+2 body would be better then af1+1.

Just for the record, with just haste spell, and gear, moving from 38.5% haste 50% DW to 40% haste 50% DW is a 2.5% damage increase, add march and it easily triples the gains. When you're 30% behind, adding 2.5% is a huge help.

When you understand this, and how ninja is 30% behind 2 handed melees if both are capped acc, you can come back and talk about it, until then, you should just go away before you make yourself look even worse.


Really you believe what one player wrote on thier blog.

L O L
You dunno who Rukenshin is or that he basically invented NIN/DRK and brought it to the masses, but yet you're trying to claim you're oldschool? I bet he had nothing to do with resist sets either!

[Ravenmore]

You done made your self look bad.

[Leonlionheart]

NIN does fine on the voidwatch i've done.

Suck less comes to mind

[wish12oz]

And your droping the ball saying give up 1.5% haste is all that bad for nin when they can hit the delay cap with 60% haste. Also how was your DDs hitting acc cap at 75 on HNm or anything harder then merit crap. If you mad that nin can't hit acc cap and tank on merit mob sorry no one needed tank for that for a long time. If you mad that you can't do it on HNM then sorry no one did that before the level increase.

I capped acc fine on everything other then like Kirin, without food, on WAR, at 75. And I can do the same now, on WAR. And yes, I don't think ninja or thf or dnc or blu should have to deal with the problem of giant losses of acc and damage compared to other melee jobs.

And Leon, if you're ninja does fine, you need to play with better melees and blms.

[Leonlionheart]

So you're saying that PLD keeps hate better than NIN

What game are you playing?

If NIN caps hate in 30~40s...

[Ravenmore]

I capped acc fine on everything other then like Kirin, without food, on WAR, at 75. And I can do the same now, on WAR. And yes, I don't think ninja or thf or dnc or blu should have to deal with the problem of giant losses of acc and damage compared to other melee jobs.

And Leon, if you're ninja does fine, you need to play with better melees and blms.

Really right there I know you full of it.

[wish12oz]

So you're saying that PLD keeps hate better than NIN

What game are you playing?

If NIN caps hate in 30~40s...

PLD keeps hate better on mobs that are overly high lvl or have large amounts of defense/evasion, which are the mobs ninja is effing terrible for, Ninja can cap hate very quickly on weak mobs, like everything inside abyssea, because it can do melee damage effectively, which is just about the only hate tool ninja has available that is worth a crap. If you bothered to read the thread instead of just coming in here with your bad attitude, you would of known I said this, and looked like less of a fool.

[wish12oz]

Really right there I know you full of it.

Because
Perdu great axe, pole grip, fire bomblet
wala turban, ancient torque, 3acc earring, brutal
adaman hauberk, dusk gloves, 7acc ring, rajas
cuchulains cape, speed belt, byakkos haidate, aurum boots
along with hasso, A+ great axe, and capped great axe merits wasn't enough to cap acc?

Didn't even include aggressor.

My question to you is, can you even count how much acc this is? and do you even know how much was required?

[Leonlionheart]

PLD keeps hate better on mobs that are overly high lvl or have large amounts of defense/evasion, which are the mobs ninja is effing terrible for, Ninja can cap hate very quickly on weak mobs, like everything inside abyssea, because it can do melee damage effectively, which is just about the only hate tool ninja has available that is worth a crap. If you bothered to read the thread instead of just coming in here with your bad attitude, you would of known I said this, and looked like less of a fool.

... So you fight hahava on a daily basis? Other than T3~4 Voidwatch NMs there's no way any of your argument is actually valid.

[Habiki]

/brd tanking was with the introduction of raptor mazurka, which was way after /drk, for someone who claims to be all knowledgeable, you dropped the ball there. It was also nerfed before much came of it, so who cares.

Also, people didn't actually use ninja tanks much before shadows were nerfed in that way.

Would you like to try again? Or concede that you actually have nothing worthwhile to contribute?

Bard tanking died with the introduction of rapture mazurka, thats when they adjusted the hate gained from mazurka type spells.

[wish12oz]

... So you fight hahava on a daily basis? Other than T3~4 Voidwatch NMs there's no way any of your argument is actually valid.

ONLY the T3 and T4?
ever do the puk in sandy? krabkatoa mob in ordelles? the worm in bastok that spams dex down/acc down? Hows your acc on those?


Habiki: there's a / in front of brd if you look at my post you quoted.

[Habiki]

ONLY the T3 and T4?
ever do the puk in sandy? krabkatoa mob in ordelles? the worm in bastok that spams dex down/acc down? Hows your acc on those?


Habiki: there's a / in front of brd if you look at my post you quoted.

Yeah i seemed to have missed that never thought people really did it /brd with the other options available for tanking sub job wise, rapture was added in july 2006 and both songs were adjusted march 2007, so it was short lived about 6-7 months for sub brd.

[Ravenmore]

Yeah I can, with drg getting 2 acc JT with just as much acc I was not hitting the cap on anything higher then lolgenbu.

[SNK]

Really you believe what one player wrote on thier blog.


Rukenshin was probably at that time one of the best NA players across a lot of servers. His Live Journal was followed by a lot of people who kept up with his exploits as much as possible seeing as he always tried to push the limits of his favorite jobs. The thing that made him a more exceptional player was not only his playing skill *He was an amazing damn nin no doubt* but it was the fact he didn't have a huge ego about it.

Guys like him and Richardd were both amazing players who made FFXI fun if just by their experiences and what they accomnplished. A lot of players even now still look up to them and consider them great players who made FFXI Endgame pretty awesome.

I can't make you "believe" anything you want but you're really flying off the deep end if you think Rukenshin was someone who bullshitted people.

[Ravenmore]

First to to feel the need to write about it.

[RaenRyong]

SE will buff ninja at the same time they finally nerf their ludicrously, stupidly and ridiculously overpowered WAR. IE: never. That said, I do agree with your points :(

[Lynchilles]

OP is dead on with Innin/Yonin. I support his suggestions 100%

[Leonlionheart]

ONLY the T3 and T4?
ever do the puk in sandy? krabkatoa mob in ordelles? the worm in bastok that spams dex down/acc down? Hows your acc on those?

Didn't have an issue. Seriously, I wish I recorded it for you.

[Bulrogg]

I still think the Devs had a valid reason for placing the position restriction on the JA, whatever it may be. So I can't really support the OP. I am still curious as to why they (DEVs) made the JA that way.

[scaevola]

BTW, is this you: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Scaevola ?
nice ninja.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Cerberus/Scaevola is me. Pretty good :umad:, though; I can only imagine the rush you must have felt when you found a disappointing ffxiah profile* you thought was me!

Anyway, my own experience suggests NIN's tanking isn't too awful at the moment, but if you feel NIN enmity generation should be quicker/more consistent, I would not necessarily object to that in itself provided that enmity comes from things that don't involve doing more damage. Increased enmity on NIN debuffs might be a potential solution.

Again, my primary concern is that there is nothing wrong with a high-survivability job doing "10-30%" less potential damage than a job with low survivability because the high-survivability job by definition risks less by maximizing that potential. Having SAMs and DRKs do more damage than NINs and MNKs means there is a reason to play SAMs and DRKs at all.




*in his defense, a Russian dude probably has a hard time finding people to help him get things done. Christ, does the client even support Cyrillic?


EDIT: Actually, this jumped out at me in your response that I "didn't seem to get":




Obviously, it's because on higher tier content, you can't do enough damage to cap enmity, unless you use innin, which makes the mobs face you, which makes innin not work anymore and makes the mob face away from you again.

I guess what I don't get is that if using Innin makes you cap your enmity against high-tier content, why, if you're trying to cap your enmity as a back-up tank to a PLD, wouldn't you just use Innin until Ochain McAlmace bites it

i mean yeah it's supposed to be the dd stance but when was the last time anything in this game made sense


oh also if people are really having a hard time capping enmity, then you should bank your WAR, make a Twashtar, and TA Rudra's on to PLDs like a straight baller

[Andrien]

To the OP:

You bring up good points, but as it stands Ninja aren't meant to be first choice for tanking. Sure they have some tanking abilities but lets not get carried away here. Same goes for damage dealing.

[Kimble]

So, if Ninja isnt meant to be a tank,nor is it meant to be a damage dealer, what is it meant to be? Support? Healer?

[scaevola]

dudes if my job can't be the best in the game at multiple things why even play it

[Leonlionheart]

grrrrrrrrrrrrr this thread is full of fail

DD hierarchy as of right now in abyssea:

WAR>DRG>MNK>NIN>ELSE. These are all supported by FACT. (In my PERSONAL opinion ELSE = PUP>DRK>THF>SAM>DNC>RNG>BST, however these are opinion and not fact.)

This is assuming top of the line gear + Empyrean weapons (For DRG to be that high up there however requries Ryunohige, so tough luck). Ukko's Average is around 4.5k, Drakesbane Average is around the same without Ryunohige, Victory Smite average is around 3.5k and Blade: Hi average seems to be about 3.5k too.

In terms of DD NIN is amazing, and they feed substantially less TP than other jobs, which brings me into tanking:

MNK>NIN>DNC>THF>PLD inside abyssea

reasons:
Overall: MNK has high survivability, which is important yes, but the main reason why they tank is their damage out put. Being able to do both is why people have dropped PLD, not a survivability issue.
MNK has huge HP pool and upwards of 75% chance of taking 0 damage and dealing damage instead
NIN has 4~5 shadows generally at recast reduction cap (iirc Ni minimum recast is 23 seconds) and medium high evasion
DNC has medium high evasion but can cure itself and others
THF has VERY high evasion and can manipulate enmity
PLD (assuming ochain and almace) can't keep up with the other 4 in most of the situations you'll find yourself in. However Almace is pretty good, and with an ochain (and for some situations aegis) they take little to no damage. Simply put though, any of the other 4 can do more damage without taking enough damage to make it that they endanger the success of the fight.

How does this pertain to the thread?

NIN tanks DAMN WELL. Pertinent NMs that NIN can tank with success even in lowman situations: Apademak, Raja, Orthrus, Hedjedjet, Bennu, Amphitrite, Isgebind, Indrik, Resheph, Empousa, ALL: Scars NMs, ALL: Visions NMs. ALL: Voidwatch T1 NMs. I speak this from experience, not just blowing it out my ass.

TL;DR NIN tanks fine and DD's better than most. fact.

[Kimble]

See, the problem is, you are talking Abyssea. Wish is talking about How things were at 75, and how they will be once we move out of abyssea, and right now, the only event that is high level outside is Voidwatch which you have only spoke for T1 when wish is talking about T3-T4.

Basically, he is being preemptive, and would like to see changed made to make NIN a better tank for said events out side of abyssea. The ONLY way NIN was able to tank at all before was NIN/DRK and now, that was taken away by lowering the hate on the spells they casted to get hate.

[scaevola]

Which is in itself totally fair, but NIN/DRK was a great solution at 75 because it gave NIN the threat generation it needed without increasing its damage.

I am not totally sure what the internal solution might be, though I will say there is likely a Twashtar THF you are bringing to HNM events anyway who might have some opinions on the matter.

[Leonlionheart]

See, the problem is, you are talking Abyssea. Wish is talking about How things were at 75, and how they will be once we move out of abyssea, and right now, the only event that is high level outside is Voidwatch which you have only spoke for T1 when wish is talking about T3-T4.

Basically, he is being preemptive, and would like to see changed made to make NIN a better tank for said events out side of abyssea. The ONLY way NIN was able to tank at all before was NIN/DRK and now, that was taken away by lowering the hate on the spells they casted to get hate.

I don't mention T2~4 because I haven't done it. I'm sure with a BRD and WHM, NIN would do fine, but idk.

Also, talking pre emptive is such a waste of time because you have absolutely no idea what the hell SE is thinking.

Seriously, who's to say it's not possible that we get a new type of abyssea called "symphonia" where there are new atma called "notes" and there's one that surpasses accuracy and crit rate cap to 100% each?

[scaevola]

Also, I haven't heard anything to suggest Counterstance is nerfed as a sub; if it's good enough to help MNK keep aggro on top of a huge damage boost I can't imagine it would be much worse for NIN.

Hell, I would think you could even leave Innin up while getting attacked and rely on the reduced evasion to counter more hits! :D!!!

[Kimble]

Im not sure what Twashtar THF has to do with anything

[scaevola]

Wish is concerned with NIN's ability to hit the enmity cap quickly.

Rudra's Storm hits really hard with Trick Attack.

[Leonlionheart]

Wish is concerned with NIN's ability to hit the enmity cap quickly.

Rudra's Storm hits really hard with Trick Attack.

Rudra's is irrelevant to it being the highest non-relic dps dagger anyway. Twashtar/Triplus is probably best possible dagger combo other than Mandau/Triplus.

[scaevola]

Let me say I think it's really weird that I apparently have to spell out a point so obvious that articulating almost makes me feel like I'm insulting the reader's intelligence, but Wish's concern about generating enmity quickly is the primary purpose of THF, which is a job you were bringing anyway because of Treasure Hunter.

Twashtar (or Daka +2) is a huge benefit to this because Rudra's Storm is really powerful with a forced crit, but enmity caps so quickly that I'd hardly consider a TA Dancing Edge or Mandalic Stab deficient, either.

[Leonlionheart]

I wish wish was here to reply so I could tell him that he's wrong

[Bulrogg]

Also, I haven't heard anything to suggest Counterstance is nerfed as a sub; if it's good enough to help MNK keep aggro on top of a huge damage boost I can't imagine it would be much worse for NIN.

Hell, I would think you could even leave Innin up while getting attacked and rely on the reduced evasion to counter more hits! :D!!!

I've been playing with it in/outside abyssea and it's pretty fun. I'll pop Innin and evening toss on Hauby sometimes. Only use shadows for incoming magic.
In abyssea Atma of Roaring Laughter RR and I prefer Apoc over VV cause triple attk > double.

[Leonlionheart]

Also, I haven't heard anything to suggest Counterstance is nerfed as a sub; if it's good enough to help MNK keep aggro on top of a huge damage boost I can't imagine it would be much worse for NIN.

Hell, I would think you could even leave Innin up while getting attacked and rely on the reduced evasion to counter more hits! :D!!!

Counter hits don't give enmity.

Not to say that /MNK isn't viable, since subjobs in general don't really give NIN much (other than /WAR berserk and /DNC violent flourish)

[scaevola]

Hmm, good to know. Do countered hits cause enmity loss? Would be useful to know even if I can't think of a good way to test it.

[Leonlionheart]

Hmm, good to know. Do countered hits cause enmity loss? Would be useful to know even if I can't think of a good way to test it.

The only 100% damage mitigation spell/ability that gives enmity loss is utsusemi, and it's hardly noticeable.

Don't know about SS or actual blink actually, but Counter, Evasion, Parry, perfect counter, invincible, and perfect dodge don't cause enmity loss when being hit.

[wish12oz]

lol@people thinking ANYTHING inside abyssea counts as hard content and believes I was reffering to it.


See, the problem is, you are talking Abyssea. Wish is talking about How things were at 75, and how they will be once we move out of abyssea, and right now, the only event that is high level outside is Voidwatch which you have only spoke for T1 when wish is talking about T3-T4.

Basically, he is being preemptive, and would like to see changed made to make NIN a better tank for said events out side of abyssea. The ONLY way NIN was able to tank at all before was NIN/DRK and now, that was taken away by lowering the hate on the spells they casted to get hate.

This is correct, I am referring to how ninja was before abyssea was added, since that is what we will be back to in a bit. And yes, to anyone with half a brain, you know that we will be fighting T+ mobs, which is where ninja starts being useless, unless it gets a hefty damage/acc increase so it can KEEP UP, with other melees.


grrrrrrrrrrrrr this thread is full of fail

DD hierarchy as of right now in abyssea:

No one cares about abyssea, this is talking about when you have to fight slightly difficult mobs.


dudes if my job can't be the best in the game at multiple things why even play it

I'm not asking for it to be the best, I'm asking for it to stay within 20% of the best. If you would bother to read what I said, you would know this.


Anyway, my own experience suggests NIN's tanking isn't too awful at the moment

That's because everything right now is weak, aside from voidwatch/VT dynamis mobs/new dynamis NMs. Once we're doing that stuff regularly, and new content regularly, ninja will fall behind again to how it use to be if something isn't done to increase it's damage potential, since that's its only real way of getting hate now.


Again, my primary concern is that there is nothing wrong with a high-survivability job doing "10-30%" less potential damage than a job with low survivability

If there's nothing wrong with it, why are you trying to argue against me?
You're aware that as it stands right now, if the ninja is capped acc, capped haste, capped ddex, it sits at 30% behind right?
Once we're outside abyssea that is going to drop significantly, down to 50% or 60% behind when we're fighting hard stuff again. Unless SE does something to increase ninjas potential.


Didn't have an issue. Seriously, I wish I recorded it for you.

I wish you did too. Tell you what, go pop the puk real quick and fight it and see how you do. It's just a T1 and you should easily be able to spawn it and fight it for a few minutes.


I should of probably replied to more but meh, I would of just been repeating myself.

[Leonlionheart]

Abyssea is the only relevant content at the moment, why you think that we should discuss the things people don't do is beyond me. If no one cared about abyssea, you're sig wouldn't have a kannagi in it.

On the puk when I wasn't flashed I did fine, forgot to SS the 4k Ukkos Q.Q.

[wish12oz]

Abyssea is the only relevant content at the moment, why you think that we should discuss the things people don't do is beyond me. If no one cared about abyssea, you're sig wouldn't have a kannagi in it.

On the puk when I wasn't flashed I did fine, forgot to SS the 4k Ukkos Q.Q.

So you didn't do it on ninja you did it on WAR? And you said WAR's acc was fine!?
SHOCKER!
That's what I have been saying, now go fight it on ninja and tell me how awesome your acc is.
PROTIP: Ninja acc will be horrible.

And why the H should we not talk about something that is obviously going to be a major issue in a month, and is right now if you're doing current uptodate content?

[Leonlionheart]

So you didn't do it on ninja you did it on WAR? And you said WAR's acc was fine!?
SHOCKER!
That's what I have been saying, now go fight it on ninja and tell me how awesome your acc is.
PROTIP: Ninja acc will be horrible.

And why the H should we not talk about something that is obviously going to be a major issue in a month, and is right now if you're doing current uptodate content?

the accuracy difference of NIN and WAR is give or take 30, if I did fine w/o food than a NIN would do fine w/ pizza.

I've said it before, but as far as you know they will make a new abyssea that's not called abyssea and everything will be double what it is in abyssea. Until you have some kind of fact to go off of, this is all speculation. That's fine, just don't pretend that you are 100% right is all.

[wish12oz]

the accuracy difference of NIN and WAR is give or take 30, if I did fine w/o food than a NIN would do fine w/ pizza.

I've said it before, but as far as you know they will make a new abyssea that's not called abyssea and everything will be double what it is in abyssea. Until you have some kind of fact to go off of, this is all speculation. That's fine, just don't pretend that you are 100% right is all.

Pizza isn't enough acc to stay capped, or even hit 90%.

Want proof? Look at the stuff they just added. Voidwatch and new dynamis mobs/NMs, all of which ninja is pretty terrible on. I would say these are good indications of where the game is going, since you know, they were just added.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: foiled again

[Leonlionheart]

Pizza isn't enough acc to stay capped, or even hit 90%.

Want proof? Look at the stuff they just added. Voidwatch and new dynamis mobs/NMs, all of which ninja is pretty terrible on. I would say these are good indications of where the game is going, since you know, they were just added.

80 cap content was pretty tough, but then they added razed ruins...

more speculation~

[Kimble]

Considering the time line the gave us has been around voidwatch and refining dynamis, savlage, etc, I think its safe to say we arent going to get Abyssea v2, atleast for the rest of this year.

[wish12oz]

80 cap content was pretty tough, but then they added razed ruins...

more speculation~

With the current voidwatch system the buffs are so completely underpowered compared to atmas it's just stupid to think they will add RR to voidwatch, it's also stupid to think you will get RR in dynamis.

[Leonlionheart]

With the current voidwatch system the buffs are so completely underpowered compared to atmas it's just stupid to think they will add RR to voidwatch, it's also stupid to think you will get RR in dynamis.

Speculation~

[Kimble]

So yours is speculation as well. I guess we shouldnt talk about anything in the future because its all SPECULATION.

[wish12oz]

Speculation~

Informed decision making.

With abyssea, the first round added atmas with 50str 10% da 2/tick regain, or one with 40str 40att 40rnng att, or one with 30% MP 50mnd and -30?enmity. Thus leaving the idea open that buffs of similar magnitude will be added with future releases.

Voidwatch buffs are like 5 stats, not 50.
Here's an example of a lvl 5, DEX+3 AGI+5 Spell Interrupt-10%, so if it goes up another 10 lvls, it will be dex13 agl15 at most? even then that still a far cry from 50 dex 30crit rate 30 crit damage. You're dumb if you think buffs in voidwatch will scale to RR levels.

[Leonlionheart]

So yours is speculation as well. I guess we shouldnt talk about anything in the future because its all SPECULATION.

Technically, yeah. Talk about it, but don't expect to get any where with it.

[Kimble]

Well i guess you are more of someone that doesnt care to do anything until it happens, while others would like to make changed before it happens.

[Leonlionheart]

Well i guess you are more of someone that doesnt care to do anything until it happens, while others would like to make changed before it happens.

The changes implied in this thread have to do with an already broken, and no plans to be fixed mechanic: enmity.

NIN has no problems getting enmity at this stage, because all you have to do to fix the problem implied by this thread, accuracy, which can be fixed by using sole sushi or a slew of other accuracy boosting food to bring NIN's accuracy on par with other jobs. NIN has huge survivability above all jobs other than DNC and PLD, and does great damage when you stop being a moron and use it's potential by compensating in the ways you have available.

[wish12oz]

The changes implied in this thread have to do with an already broken, and no plans to be fixed mechanic: enmity.

NIN has no problems getting enmity at this stage, because all you have to do to fix the problem implied by this thread, accuracy, which can be fixed by using sole sushi or a slew of other accuracy boosting food to bring NIN's accuracy on par with other jobs. NIN has huge survivability above all jobs other than DNC and PLD, and does great damage when you stop being a moron and use it's potential by compensating in the ways you have available.

You would totally be right, if they added 15% acc with no cap to red curry buns.
All I'm really asking is for a way for ninja to hold hate, and stay within 20% damage of the good melees, why you think this is to much to ask for is just beyond me.

And once we leave abyssea behind, it will be a problem. Saying its not a problem now at this stage is just stupid, because I have said that myself, we're talking about how it use to be, which is how its going to be again very soon.

[Leonlionheart]

You would totally be right, if they added 15% acc with no cap to red curry buns.
All I'm really asking is for a way for ninja to hold hate, and stay within 20% damage of the good melees, why you think this is to much to ask for is just beyond me.

And once we leave abyssea behind, it will be a problem. Saying its not a problem now at this stage is just stupid, because I have said that myself, we're talking about how it use to be, which is how its going to be again very soon.

As it stands right now:
-NIN is better than DDs designed specifically for DDing
-PLD, designed specifically for tanking nearly never tanks
-You, nor anyone else on these forums other than the dev's themselves, have no idea what the next full scale update will hold. Things may or may not, and most likely won't considering the direction the dev team has taken the game, become as they used to be. You have no idea, neither do I.

NIN should probably be more than 20% away from the real DDs considering the playerbase has made it into a tank. No matter what damage it does it doesn't lose enmity very often because it almost never takes damage, while real DDs like WAR DRG DRK SAM are always taking hits, and thusly losing enmity. NIN tanks very well with the right tools- Migawari, MDT PDT gear and a good WHM with a good BRD. Not to mention it tanks perfectly fine and deals the damage it does while PLD has high survivability but deals next to no damage.

[wish12oz]

As it stands right now:
-NIN is better than DDs designed specifically for DDing


Ninja is only better inside abyssea because critical hit WS's are overpowered inside abyssea. And it's only better then 2 of them, SAM and DRK, and ONLY because those 2 jobs do not have critical hit WS's. If they changed guillotine to critical hit, DRK would be #1 with war and drg, if they gave sam a crit ws, same thing. Outside abyssea, all those jobs are better then ninja, once you are fighting mobs that are at all difficult, those jobs overtake ninja by a very very large margin, because 2 handed weapon users have a great acc and att advantage over ninja, and can use meat, further increasing this damage advantage over ninjas since they're forced to use acc food.


-PLD, designed specifically for tanking nearly never tanks

PLD is for tanking hard mobs, like the new voidwatch stuff they just added, and new dynamis NMs, and it does great. Maybe you should get out of abyssea and stop thinking thats the only thing that will ever matter?


-You, nor anyone else on these forums other than the dev's themselves, have no idea what the next full scale update will hold. Things may or may not, and most likely won't considering the direction the dev team has taken the game, become as they used to be. You have no idea, neither do I.

Actually, everyone knows what the Devs are adding, because you know, THEY TOLD US. And the difficulty of the mobs they are adding should be apparent by the mobs they just added last update. And how good the voidwatch buffs will be is apparent if you look at the current buffs they give you. This all depends on a person having common sense when looking at the presented facts though, people like you who appear to not have any seem to be completely lost, so I ask that you just believe me, ok?


NIN should probably be more than 20% away from the real DDs considering the playerbase has made it into a tank. No matter what damage it does it doesn't lose enmity very often because it almost never takes damage, while real DDs like WAR DRG DRK SAM are always taking hits, and thusly losing enmity.

Those jobs shouldn't take damage, if the ninja or paladin was properly tanking it would work out that way. And just so you know, they updated utsusemi a long time ago, losing shadows makes you lose enmity, it's just not as much as taking a bunch of damage.


NIN tanks very well with the right tools- Migawari, MDT PDT gear and a good WHM with a good BRD. Not to mention it tanks perfectly fine and deals the damage it does while PLD has high survivability but deals next to no damage.

Any mob ninja can do damage on, paladin won't be far behind on, unless your PLD is completely terrible.
And this discussion is about higher tier mobs, where ninja does NOT do good damage, even with Innin.

And how exactly does a ninja get enough enmity to tank, if it doesn't do good damage compared to the melees, I'm just curious how you think this occurs.

[Leonlionheart]

:\

Other stuff might matter next update, but right now nothing else does so no thank you.

They only told us a portion actually, and that's not for the next major update. And until the next major update, Abyssea will be the only thing that really matters.

Those jobs will always take damage if they don't suck/ aren't using /thf and thusly sucking. Inside Aby: 2 Ukko's = more or less hate cap, outside its maybe 4 ukko's. Hate cap = take damage.

NIN deals much, much, much, much more damage than PLD in and even moreso out of abyssea. PLD's best WS (other than zoro) deals maximum of like 950 damage, while Hi still spikes up to 3k outside. Zoro does like 2k outside. Jin does like 1.8kish too, assuming you don't suck.

[wish12oz]

Other stuff might matter next update, but right now nothing else does so no thank you.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] This is needed now, so that when they add even more stuff, and all of the rest of the population of the game catches up with the people leading the charge, it's not an issue.


They only told us a portion actually, and that's not for the next major update. And until the next major update, Abyssea will be the only thing that really matters.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] there's lots of 'new content' outside abyssea that matters.


Those jobs will always take damage if they don't suck/ aren't using /thf and thusly sucking. Inside Aby: 2 Ukko's = more or less hate cap, outside its maybe 4 ukko's. Hate cap = take damage.

Provided the ninja reaches the hate cap before/at the same time, all you have to do is attack faster then them to keep hate off them, which is easy inside abyssea, and impossible outside on anything above even match.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


NIN deals much, much, much, much more damage than PLD in and even moreso out of abyssea. PLD's best WS (other than zoro) deals maximum of like 950 damage, while Hi still spikes up to 3k outside. Zoro does like 2k outside. Jin does like 1.8kish too, assuming you don't suck.

It's not that much if the paladin is good and has proper gear. And apladin has a much greater advantage outside abyssea on anything above even match, since well, ninja can't cap hate because their damage is crap. Also: Hi only goes up to 3k outside on weak mobs, and only averages 2k with amazing gear...... on weak mobs. Once you fight harder mobs, you're lucky if you average 800. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Kimble]

They did tell us, did you not see the timeline they gave us up till the end of the year?

[Leonlionheart]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] This is needed now, so that when they add even more stuff, and all of the rest of the population of the game catches up with the people leading the charge, it's not an issue.

:[ Useless gear other than +3 march harp is useless.




[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] there's lots of 'new content' outside abyssea that matters.

No, actually there isn't... Empyrean+2 Empyrean weapons and most of the accessories are still waaaaaaaaaaaay better :[




Provided the ninja reaches the hate cap before/at the same time, all you have to do is attack faster then them to keep hate off them, which is easy inside abyssea, and impossible outside on anything above even match.

How does anyone other than THF and DNC attack faster than NIN?


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

You misread me, I meant: If you're a melee and subbing THF you suck, unless the situation calls for it cause you know, situational shit is situational.



It's not that much if the paladin is good and has proper gear. And apladin has a much greater advantage outside abyssea on anything above even match, since well, ninja can't cap hate because their damage is crap. Also: Hi only goes up to 3k outside on weak mobs, and only averages 2k with amazing gear...... on weak mobs. Once you fight harder mobs, you're lucky if you average 800. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

IDK what even matches you're finding outside aby that you can't cap hate on with pizza o.O:

When you cap hate the mob turns to you and the others who cap hate broseph, so basically your tanking is useless if you are at cap hate with more than one person. Personal attacks are cool though.

I play with NIN everyday, don't ask me exactly how they do it themselves but they seem to be quite good at doing it.

[wish12oz]

Useless gear other than +3 march harp is useless.


'cuz u no, there isn't gonna be any more voidwatch, and those tier 4 pops wont be required for tier 5. And a 5 PDT hat is junk, those new 3 pdt gloves, junk, new 3 pdt boots, also junk, even though they're also the best boots for torcleaver, thats new 9 vit necklace, which is also very good for torcleaver until you acquire hadhavas necklace with vit and quad attack, that new oneiros knife, looks useful to me, Jinang greatsword is total crap too, thats why people pay 5m for it on my server, cause it's garbage, that mdb throwing item that wont make you lose tp switching it on for mdt sets is also crap right? a grip with regen and refresh is also crap, calcemac trousers are junk too, thats why so many people use them and pay 1-2mil for them, enhancing skill12 on that new mage body is useless, and so is the fast cast on it, an int6 mab6 helm is also useless right? belts with fishing/mining/chocobo digging enhancements are also terrible, along with rings that increase skill up rates. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


IDK what even matches you're finding outside aby that you can't cap hate on with pizza o.O:

Pizza isn't enough to cap acc on hard mobs. And it's definitely not enough to cap acc and use yonin.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Leonlionheart]

'cuz u no, there isn't gonna be any more voidwatch, and those tier 4 pops wont be required for tier 5. And a 5 PDT hat is junk, those new 3 pdt gloves, junk, new 3 pdt boots, also junk, even though they're also the best boots for torcleaver, thats new 9 vit necklace, which is also very good for torcleaver until you acquire hadhavas necklace with vit and quad attack, that new oneiros knife, looks useful to me, Jinang greatsword is total crap too, thats why people pay 5m for it on my server, cause it's garbage, that mdb throwing item that wont make you lose tp switching it on for mdt sets is also crap right? a grip with regen and refresh is also crap, calcemac trousers are junk too, thats why so many people use them and pay 1-2mil for them, enhancing skill12 on that new mage body is useless, and so is the fast cast on it, an int6 mab6 helm is also useless right? belts with fishing/mining/chocobo digging enhancements are also terrible, along with rings that increase skill up rates. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


Pizza isn't enough to cap acc on hard mobs. And it's definitely not enough to cap acc and use yonin. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Jesus, stop talking about content you know nothing of. 50% of those drops are from KCNM50

I mean seriously I personally confirmed most of those drops... I could even go in those fights nude and win they are so easy...

[wish12oz]

50% of those drops are from KCNM50


My original comment was "Just because you're bad at the game and not doing the new content"

Kindred crest BCs count as new content, since well, its content that was just added. And the other half must be from dynamis and voidwatch! So even if you wanted me to only point out items from voidwatch which are useful other then a +3 march instrument, I still accomplished this. You should really stop posting, you're just making yourself look worse.

[Leonlionheart]

My original comment was "Just because you're bad at the game and not doing the new content"

Kindred crest BCs count as new content, since well, its content that was just added. And the other half must be from dynamis and voidwatch! So even if you wanted me to only point out items from voidwatch which are useful other then a +3 march instrument, I still accomplished this. You should really stop posting, you're just making yourself look worse.

But they're not hard. I thought you were talking about hard things, but I guess everything is hard for you :[

Half of them would be 50% too, math gogogo

The ones other than +3 march harp are hardly useful other than for torcleaver lol

[Leonlionheart]

well there are some niche pieces, but they are more sidegrades than upgrades

[Vivik]

Can't argue with someone who did CoP before caps were taken off....

[noodles355]

It has never been accepted to try to cap crit with dex seeing how we do not know mobs stats. Actually on Greater Colibri when the level cap was 75, it was.

[Leonlionheart]

Can't argue with someone who did CoP before caps were taken off....

Better recognize.

[Ravenmore]

Actually on Greater Colibri when the level cap was 75, it was.

Ok then I stand corrected. Its was ok on exp trash mobs. Unless they capped abyssea at 90 were we can't get exp off the mobs don't think we will be leaving it. Even then player base will find the easiest mob so they won't need a a tank.

[wish12oz]

Ok then I stand corrected. Its was ok on exp trash mobs. Unless they capped abyssea at 90 were we can't get exp off the mobs don't think we will be leaving it. Even then player base will find the easiest mob so they won't need a a tank.

It works well on anything if you're not really gimp.

Lets look at some ninja gear real quick that you should be using.
AF3+2 hat, 10 dex
AF3+2 body, 12 dex
AF1+1 body, 5 dex
Byakkos Haidate, 15dex
AF3+2 feets, 5 dex
Rajas ring, 5 dex

That's a lot of dex, and doesn't even require effort on the part of the ninja to use, this is the stuff you want to use anyway.
Also, it's not like figuring out your crit rate is hard. You should have a basic idea of what a mobs agl should be and how much you need, then you just use that and count your crits/not crits and see if you're capped or not.