Why close thief petition thread

[Riggs]

Why was the thread thief petition closed?

I cannot vouch for any of his numbers but i can agree that as a life long thief i find todays update information an complete insult :mad:

[Francisco]

First off, it's possible he closed his own thread (I think SE implemented this feature - which is a bad one to begin with).

Secondly, at least wait and see what your exact adjustments are?

Thirdly, THF is a pretty well rounded job combining defense (highest evasion in the game, subtle blow effects), offense (triple attack, sneak attack, critical hit bonus, dual wield, solid weapon skills), and tons of exclusive abilities and traits like treasure hunter and ways to control hate. THF also has access to a variety of strong weapons, has atma that's basically tailored for the job and can equip a ton of haste gear - and achieve 25~26% Haste with relative ease.

Not going to say THF is the best job out there - but it's better than most these days. Adjustments and new abilities are always fun, but not getting a Berserk or Impetus doesn't qualify as insulting.

[Arcon]

Didn't even know players can close their own threads. If he did do that, it was the right choice, that way it will be lost and forgotten soon. THF doesn't need many adjustments, in the current job spectrum they perform extremely well for many situations. This update didn't do much, but what it did wasn't bad either. The very short range of those abilities has been bothering me for a while. Other jobs didn't get anything, so this wasn't too bad.

Edit:
Maybe it was locked because it wasn't in the THF subforum, although I don't know what the policy on that is, since I've seen threads get moved before.

[thefinalrune]

To comment and clarify on what Francisco stated, Thief doesn't natively get subtle blow. And the ability Conspirator only applies to party members not the target of aggression, making it useless while soloing. Also, we only get 1 tier of Dual Wield.

Thief may not need much in adjustment, but it definitely needs some form of adjustment in comparison to the jobs that rival it, dancer and ninja. Whether its hate manipulation, damage dealing or actual thief like activities, thief's degree of potency in these realms is sub par to ninja and dancer's degrees of potency in their realms of specialty.

[Nebo]

We only get 1 tier of Dual Wield.

THF recieved DWII somewhere on the road to 90.

While I don't think the Accomplorator change is an insult per se, I can see why it might have struck a chord with some players. To me, it is one of those things that should have never been as short as it was from the start. Being as close range as they were just made them unneccessarily limited (that, and being tied to the same recast timer. 5 minutes is too long to be relevant). I look at this as an attempt to fix something that was broken rather than an actual job adjustment.

It is a minor tweak, but at least it isn't something useless like lolDespoil or something with retarded limitations like conspirator. I'm sure it will not be the only Thief adjustment to come either, so I would suggest patience. Is it all that the job needs? No. Not even close. But is it helpful? I think so.

I'll take something helpful and the opportunity to have more conversations about what kind of updates Thief really needs.

I like the way Square Enix is handling communication these days, and am optomistic that we will have a voice into what updates THF does get. After all, the range on these is something we have been complaining about.

[Gropitou]

This should be under the THF forum, not General Discussion.

[Eeek]

I'm still hoping for updates which will help THF a little more in the DD department. It still takes a lot of effort to turn THF into a halfway-decent DD outside of Abyssea, and as it stands, THFs are still too easily replaced by a mule character who does nothing more than attack an NM once for TH.

On that note, I agree with Nebo on the Accomplice/Collaborator adjustment, and I'm glad SE is adjusting the range on it. I'm hoping we can use it on mages standing near max-casting range, and maybe it'll lessen the aggravation of chasing down panicky BLMs when they pull hate. The ~8' range was aggravating to say the least.

Also SE, if you're still reading this, please adjust Conspirator to last 3 minutes instead of 1. It's bad enough that Conspirator does not affect the melee with hate, but with only a lousy 1 minute effect duration, it's not as useful as I would have hoped (it's still nice for the final 25% of an NM's HP, though).

[Eeek]

This should be under the THF forum, not General Discussion.

Galka should be in the mines, not General Discussion.

:p

[Byrth]

There's no point in having discussions in the Job Forums, because (as far as I can tell) they have never been responded to and there's no evidence they have ever been read. That was probably why he posted it in General instead.

Aside: His math is offensively bad. The first thing I saw when I looked at that thread was:

(Oirandori) (Damage (44) + FSTR(12) x pdif (2.0) = 112
(Kamone) (Damage (39) + FSTR (12) x pdif(2.0) = 102

a single round kogara/kamone = 216

The addition doesn't work out if you actually use Kogara, either.

[wish12oz]

First thing I saw was him talk about ninajs using Ininn, and I was all like WTF, what kind of bad ninjas does this guy run around with that they can use ininn and gain some kind of effect out of it that isn't -evasion. Seriously, if you can play ninja and you're not tanking pretty much all the time, you're doing it wrong, ininn is garbage and cannot be used because the mob should be facing you 90% of the time.

EDIT::
After I saw this terrible error in judgement I knew nothing would come of reading the rest of his post because he had no idea what he was talking about, and the thread was closed so it's not like I could tell him where he messed up. So I stopped reading it.

[Byrth]

After I saw this terrible error in judgement I knew nothing would come of reading the rest of his post because he had no idea what he was talking about, and the thread was closed so it's not like I could tell him where he messed up. So I stopped reading it.

Similarly, after I saw that he couldn't add or decide what weapons he was doing math with in the first few lines of his math, I stopped trying to follow it at all. Well, not entirely true, as I noted that he didn't have the Dancer use Saber Dance and somehow gave them the highest Attack of all three jobs.

[CrAZYVIC]

Hello ^^

I Closed my topic sorry, in this forums we have a lot of trolls.... I just want SE devs read it. ( I hope they understand thief is a DD)

The calculations i did make on the katanas combo was Oirandori/kamone. I was about of make kogara/kamone, I changed my mind, just a type error.

I used, two kila +2 with attack on dancer, the food used was red curry and berserk for the 3 jobs.

For wish12oz


I did not taked in consideration "innin" in my calculations.

The accuracy is not anymore a factor inside abbysea even with yonnin on. (Only vs some NM in heroes areas yes, but with normal low tiers NMS and exp mobs no)

(Talking playing solo only)

Ninja with Yonin, Kurayami Ni,hojo ni, Jubaku and 2 sekkas +2 evasion ones. Can tank any NM inside abbysea more smooth than thief and dancer, i repeat im talking "Solo" not duo no dualbox, "Solo"

Dancer have access saber dance, haste samba and more luxury offensive tools and natural higher tier DW.

I agree with you in a lot of things in your Yonin/Inin post. This JAS need to be checked.

You cant imagine the diference of DOT and ws damage losed,ninja/warrior, dancer/warrior vs thief/ninja.

For nebo

After the intensive DW tests on thief, was comprobed we only receive DW1, not DW2 even on wiki they update that information.

Yes the true love thiefs, are very strong in this days and can keep up with any job. But like how i did say is "Insulting we receive just a range in two JA we dont use very often anymore, before abbysea yes, we used it a lot on BLMS, and another situations, right now we dont use it very often. Not is fair they dont want give us a offensive JA.

Atm i only use Accomplise/collaborador, for turn on or turn off the mob in the position i want, for Trick attack and sneak attack, and for duo with my mage friends.

[Octaviane]

This should be under the THF forum, not General Discussion.

FYI........take a look under job forums and tell me how many responses have been made by Developers to various suggestions in each of the job specific threads. Then you will have your answer to why it was posted here...........! DING!

[Nebo]

After the intensive DW tests on thief, was comprobed we only receive DW1, not DW2 even on wiki they update that information.

Link to testing please.

[CrAZYVIC]

Link to testing please.


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dual_Wield

THF Dual WieldEdit

It's DW1, not DW2. Tested outside on level 0 mobs one shotting with first a single 201 delay dagger, then two 201 delay daggers.

5, 11, 16, 22, 27, 33, 38, 44, 49, 55 so 5.5 TP per strike with one 201 delay dagger.

5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 with two 201 delay daggers. No mobs hit me, and I wore nothing during the test barring the weapons. .5 TP less dual wielding, which is 10% reduction, DW1.

[Alaik]

Uh, I tested that back when we intially got DW1 and put that into the wiki. That may not be the case at 90 cap.

[Atomic_Skull]

SATA timers need to be reduced and the restrictions on positioning need to be eased. Either that add a JA that forces a critical hit on the next WS from any position that shares it's timer with SA but has a lower cooloff timer.


THF should also get a Critical Hit Rate Bonus job trait.


lvl 15 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus +10%

lvl 45 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus II +15%

lvl 65 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus III +20%

lvl 85 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus IV +25%


Also, THF should have additional levels of Triple Attack and a reverse Collaborator.

[Karbuncle]

I think i've posted this a thousand times, I'll post it a thousand more. THF is a great job, But it falls short in anything but Treasure Hunter'ing. (which is nice... Its what THF's do)

That being said, I think a Job Trait, Level ~80+, That allows us to SA from sides/front for a penalty to the SA bonus would be nice? and not too broken... Like say...

"Illusive" (IDC about names bite me ;;)
Allows use of Sneak Attack from sides or front of mob with Penalty to Damage boost.
(Back(normal): 100% DEX >)
(Sides: 75% of DEX)
(Front: 50% of DEX)

However, with this, Introduce a JA like "Restraint" for SA/TA, Like follows>
"Concentration"
*blahblahRPcrap*-Through combat you learn your enemies weakness, Each successive hit increases the damage for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.
*Each Hit would increase SA and TA's Mod (DEX or AGI) by 0.5%. Cap of +50% mod (I.E 150% of your DEX to Weapon damage) > It would take 100 Swings to "Fully charge" it. Wears off after 1 use. Effect lasts 5 minutes. Recast timer 10 minutes. Effect stays on full duration, but the "Charge" wears off after SA or TA is used (resets it to 0)

Also, For job Traits in general-
"Critical hit Rate Bonus" Lv. I~V at 10/30/50/70/90.
3/3/3/3/3 for a total of +15% Critical hit Rate.

"Critical attack Bonus" Lv I~VI at 15/30/45/60/75/90
5/3/3/3/3/3 for +20% Critical hit damage.

--------------

These improvements would help THF a lot in the DD department, and make up for their weaker weapon damage. (lets face it, inside abyssea, we're not that far behind, outside we flop on most mobs)

[Vicious]

First thing I saw was him talk about ninajs using Ininn, and I was all like WTF, what kind of bad ninjas does this guy run around with that they can use ininn and gain some kind of effect out of it that isn't -evasion. Seriously, if you can play ninja and you're not tanking pretty much all the time, you're doing it wrong, ininn is garbage and cannot be used because the mob should be facing you 90% of the time.


Not that I'm going to defend anything that guy said, but Innin is a lot more useful than you give it credit for; there are lots of monsters that don't turn to face whoever has hate if they're within melee range; and with some of those (Hydra in particular), the flail move is much easier to deal with than the normal retinue.

[Nebo]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dual_Wield

THF Dual WieldEdit

It's DW1, not DW2. Tested outside on level 0 mobs one shotting with first a single 201 delay dagger, then two 201 delay daggers.

5, 11, 16, 22, 27, 33, 38, 44, 49, 55 so 5.5 TP per strike with one 201 delay dagger.

5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 with two 201 delay daggers. No mobs hit me, and I wore nothing during the test barring the weapons. .5 TP less dual wielding, which is 10% reduction, DW1.

If I am not mistaken, that test has been there since we received Dual Wield at 83. There has also been testing done since that showed another tier increase between level 85-90.

Possible reason for it saying "It's DW1, not DW2" is that, at the time, Thieves were speculating that it should be AT LEAST DW2 since that was the highest tier we got from /nin at the 85 cap. Lots of angry Thieves when we figured out it wasn't lol.

I'll look for that link for more recent testing.

[CrAZYVIC]

Karbuncle and Atomic_skull, the ideas you guys give are awesome! i hope the devs read this post

Nebo, in the last ffxi calculator by kinematics. He did not add DW2 for thief sadly, i hope im wrong and we have DW2, but even in the wiki page, DW2 at lv 90 was removed =(

[CrAZYVIC]

Just did a quick test.

Thief / X i parsed 20 battles on thief/x and 20 battles thf/dnc vs lesser colibri. DW items used Body +3 and suppa. triplus/rapidus stp gear used rajas, hoard ring and brutal

Store tp on gear needed for receive 5 tp per hit is "9". Rajas brutal and hoard ring was enough for DW1 thief/x

Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #
100,00 % 539/0 100,00 % 100,00 % 0/153 115,46 115,46 1

Now thief / Dancer, Same gear but i need 12 STP on gear for receive 5 tp per hit. With rajas, hoard and brutal some times i receive 4 tp per hit.

Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
100,00 % 558/0 100,00 % 100,00 % 0/143 105,56 105,56




Thf/x 539 hits
Thief/dancer 558 hits

The DW thief receive is DW1, with the small test and with the Store tp gear needed we can see it clear

[Angelsasuke]

Ok TBH i didnt read the whole thread only about half it, but am i the only one who has thf thats doesnt care.... i mean if they said they did something good like seperated depoil and steak timers being that two different pools/gear and only one is affected by aura steal, kinda sucks waiting 5 mins and then have to choose. That would have made me happy, this isnt bad but coulda been better, im sure the range on collab/accomp was at the bottom of the thing we wanted fixed the most, but it was there and thats the one they decided to fix. If it wasnt on your list make some friend/lsmates and do stuff then it will be.

[Karbuncle]

Ok TBH i didnt read the whole thread only about half it, but am i the only one who has thf thats doesnt care.... i mean if they said they did something good like seperated depoil and steak timers being that two different pools/gear and only one is affected by aura steal, kinda sucks waiting 5 mins and then have to choose. That would have made me happy, this isnt bad but coulda been better, im sure the range on collab/accomp was at the bottom of the thing we wanted fixed the most, but it was there and thats the one they decided to fix. If it wasnt on your list make some friend/lsmates and do stuff then it will be.

I would say yes

It doesn't make you any more or less of a Thief to want more for the job though. So don't think that :O

Truthfully theres a lot of things i think THF should get, But i expect to see very very few.

[Francisco]

SATA timers need to be reduced and the restrictions on positioning need to be eased. Either that add a JA that forces a critical hit on the next WS from any position that shares it's timer with SA but has a lower cooloff timer.


THF should also get a Critical Hit Rate Bonus job trait.


lvl 15 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus +10%

lvl 45 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus II +15%

lvl 65 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus III +20%

lvl 85 Crit. Hit Rate Bonus IV +25%


Also, THF should have additional levels of Triple Attack and a reverse Collaborator.

25% critical hit rate, plus 5% from merits on top of whatever else you get as your base is a bit much in my opinion. Not trying to shoot you down or anything - but you'd be absurdly lucky to get even just a 10% boost to critical hit rate at Lv. 90.

Yes, THF is a DD... but it's a more specialized one. It can serve as a primary tank and DD, or use it's abilities to assist another primary tank with enmity, and provide supplemental damage. Four-manned Ulhuadashi the other day... MNK, WHM, BLM... the fourth has PLD, THF, BLU, WHM, RDM and COR. I asked him to come THF - honestly just for treasure hunter. Even still, the THF did remarkable damage and also took minimal damage over the course of the fight.

[Byrth]

I'd rip Thieves for all the stupid ideas and horrible math / general misunderstandings about game mechanics that get brought up in threads about the job, but Dancers are no better.

[Eeek]

I promise, some of us do try to Suck Less. :(

And by the way, you're a great help to those of us who truly do try to better our DNC.

[Nebo]

Yes, THF is a DD... but it's a more specialized one. It can serve as a primary tank and DD, or use it's abilities to assist another primary tank with enmity, and provide supplemental damage.

The problem with this is that THF is not a tank. THF was fundamentally designed not to be able to use its abilities when it has the monster's attention. THF can now proc TH on melee strikes so it makes a little more sense than it used to, but THF is a MUCH better TH proc when they aren't tanking (because they can ride SA/TA timers)

We can do good things in abyssea now because, with atmas, THF can tank through DPS and the fact that unstacked Evisceration doesn't suck. Without Atmas, unstacked WS are comparatively garbage to other DDs, and without being able to ride SA/TA timers, so is our DPS.

THF is not well rounded and balanced because of Abyssea and atmas. Abyssea =/= Final Fantasy XI. We are now going from 90-99 with new endgame content. SE has already said that we are not getting new Abyssea content. THF is not fine as a job just because atmas make everyone godlike inside Abyssea. Abyssea will be an afterthought in the not so distant future.

Most Thieves realise that they are about to go back to lolTHF DD perception status without atmas, which is why we are starting conversations for adjustment. Some do make suggestions without realising the effect it may have on game balance, but I cannot discount the sentiment of frustration.

You see an update like this for Accomplorator, and its just "meh". The range on these should have never been as short as they were to begin with. The fact that they are tied to the same recast timer with Accomplice recast being 5 minutes makes Accomplice virtually not worth using at all. So the ability itself is still really "meh" even with this update to it.

THF's tend to get furstrated when we see all this "meh" and useless stuff piling up after the level cap increase. Despoil, Conspirator, less than sub job level DW, several other jobs getting that critical attack bonus trait we were begging for, Accomplorator range fix.....eh just spending developement time not giving the job what it needs really.

Personally? I am comfortable with THF damage potential (It may need a very slight boost). I am more concerned with the (positional) limitations on the opportunity to fulfil that potential, and they way those limitations effect everything else we can sort of do. Soloing, duoing, tanking, chaotic group events, etc. These all make it quite difficult to make use of SA/TA and are, in my oppinion, the largest limiting factor preventing THF from realising its current damage/TH potential.

Especially given that our WS are garbage if we cannot stack them, and our DPS is comparatively unimpressive when we can't ride SA/TA timers. THF is already a realtively weaker DD (in terms of job potential) even in ideal situations where we can make 100% use of these things, it just seems unreasonable to be tied to positional restrictions as well.

[Nebo]

Just did a quick test.

Thief / X i parsed 20 battles on thief/x and 20 battles thf/dnc vs lesser colibri. DW items used Body +3 and suppa. triplus/rapidus stp gear used rajas, hoard ring and brutal

Store tp on gear needed for receive 5 tp per hit is "9". Rajas brutal and hoard ring was enough for DW1 thief/x

Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #
100,00 % 539/0 100,00 % 100,00 % 0/153 115,46 115,46 1

Now thief / Dancer, Same gear but i need 12 STP on gear for receive 5 tp per hit. With rajas, hoard and brutal some times i receive 4 tp per hit.

Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
100,00 % 558/0 100,00 % 100,00 % 0/143 105,56 105,56




Thf/x 539 hits
Thief/dancer 558 hits

The DW thief receive is DW1, with the small test and with the Store tp gear needed we can see it clear

I think you are overcomplicating this test :p. I am still waiting on Character Restoration service so I cannot do this myself...


...but I found one that Laphine did by one shotting starter level mobs and comparing expected TP returns per 10 kills right after the December 2010 update.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=10&mid=1291695593176332065&page=1&howmany=50#msg1291740656147942683

[Alaik]

Yeah there is absolutely no reason to wear DW or sTP items or fight anything but level one mobs for this test.

Getting hit for dmg gives +TP, so THF/RDM on lv 0 mobs is the best choice. Do it nude with a single warp cudgel/trial dagger, then with two, mark the differences. You will NOT be hit for 1dmg and the delays are perfect for determining TP/hit. You only need 10 strikes from each test to determine it also as the game won't give X.XX values as a final result, only X.X

[CrAZYVIC]

I think you are overcomplicating this test :p. I am still waiting on Character Restoration service so I cannot do this myself...


...but I found one that Laphine did by one shotting starter level mobs and comparing expected TP returns per 10 kills right after the December 2010 update.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=10&mid=1291695593176332065&page=1&howmany=50#msg1291740656147942683

Not is comparable his test vs my deep test.

I used the STP gear was need exactly for prove the diference DW1 and DW2.
I parsed the 40 mobs fights and was used FFXI calculator for calculate the STP Gear needed.

If you want believe in very superficial test up to you.

I dont will discuss anymore about if we have DW1 or DW2. My test not was maked with 200 - 300 mobs i know, but is a lot more deep than these one with lv 10 mobs, without parse and without compare a true DW1 vs DW2, i used everything was needed in my test.

Is very simple and silly test if we have DW1 and DW2. Open the FFXI caculator go to the delay option, put there your weapons delay, check the STP need for DW1 and DW2, log in in ffxi, get the gear need with your thief and hit something with STP gear thief/x and thief/dnc. You will see notice the diference. (Personally i dont like this kind superficial tests, that is the reason for i wasted about 1 hour of my time parsing and do a deep test)

Another quick note i want add. The guy maked ffxi calculator "Is a god in ffxi maths" In the last version of his program he did not add DW2 for thief, i trust on him because his program is a wonderfull thing for help us know our delay, stp gear, skill caps, and lot of more usefull things

[Byrth]

You can't "use STP gear" to prove the difference between DW1 and 2. DW level determines your base TP/hit. Base TP/hit is multiplied by STP to determine your new TP/hit. STP gear can do nothing but confuse the test.

PS. Thanks Eeek!

[CrAZYVIC]

You can't "use STP gear" to prove the difference between DW1 and 2. DW level determines your base TP/hit. Base TP/hit is multiplied by STP to determine your new TP/hit. STP gear can do nothing but confuse the test.

PS. Thanks Eeek!

Ok with 25% haste on gear and suppa and DW +3 body. You need 9 STP for receive 5 tp per hit with DW1
With the same gear using Thief/dnc DW2 DW level determines your base TP/hit. Base TP/hit is multiplied by STP to determine your new TP/hit You need 12 STP for receive 5 tp per hit DW level determines your base TP/hit.

And on my parse you can see the diference the hits Thief/x vs thief/dancer. Is all ^^

A quick note for you. all i was saying about dancer is: Dancer have more offensive tools than thief, and ninja have access /war having the Utsusemi shadows protection.

A good thief can keep up with any job. And the ideas of atomic skull and karbuncle was awesome ideas.

[Nebo]

Not is comparable his test vs my deep test.

The way you tested though doesn't make much sense. His test is better because it is simpler and there are no variables that can confuse the results.

Parsing for hours isn't relevant for this kind of test either. TP per hit is not variable. This is math. 10 swings will tell you exactly what you need to know.

STP gear, DW gear, Haste gear....whatever gear you are trying to make relevant to this test is irrelevant. You should be doing this naked and on starter level mobs.

This way you can compare Tp/hit x 10 and get the exact results of tp per hit and make valid comparisons. Is it simple? Absolutley. But the most simplified version you can get of the information without all these other crazy variables you are adding to the test is the best way to do it

[CrAZYVIC]

The way you tested though doesn't make much sense. His test is better because it is simpler and there are no variables that can confuse the results.

STP gear, DW gear, Haste gear....whatever gear you are trying to make relevant to this test is irrelevant. You should be doing this naked and on starter level mobs.

Like how i did say i dont will discuss anymore this with you. But i wanted do a test with a realistic Tp gear with capped haste, and with usefull items, and in my Tp gear that is amount of STp i was need. And if a parse showing you the diference the Rounds not is enough fine ^^ think what do you want and believe what do you want.

[Nebo]

Like how i did say i dont will discuss anymore this with you. But i wanted do a test with a realistic Tp gear with capped haste, and with usefull items, and in my Tp gear that is amount of STp i was need.

Just because you wanted to do a test with certain gear does not mean that was a good way to test whether or not THF gets DW1 or DW2.

You were not testing gear sets. You were testing job traits. Your testing method is flawed and therefore so are the results.

I have no particular desire to argue that with you either if you can't see it for yourself.

Edit:
Not to mention the fact that you were testing numerous battles agaisnt enemies that were most definitely hitting you during the course of your test. Getting hit = TP given.

[Byrth]

Here is a simple test:
1) Take two 190 delay daggers
2) Remove all Dual Wield and Store TP gear, Go THF/BLM, and go to a starter city.
3) Hit 10 monsters (10 swings) and look at your TP.
- If it's 49 TP, Thief has Dual Wield 1. If it's 48, Thief has Dual Wield 2. -
4) Cast Warp

Depending where you set your homepoint and how good your travel options are, this test could take anywhere between 3 and 15 minutes. I chose 190 because it's a common dagger delay.

[Karbuncle]

its dual Wield II: Screenshots here.

First picture shows the 10 hits i landed:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll241/Karbuncle/pol2011-06-0517-39-26-84.jpg

Second Picture shows my TP:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll241/Karbuncle/pol2011-06-0517-38-46-02.jpg

Shut up about it! >:0

(P.S: Those aren't my actual graphics. I just noticed they look like vomit)
(P.P.S: I provided the first SS to show all 10 hits, and to show Twilight Knife didn't proc. Offhand is Kila+2 (Delay 190))

[Alaik]

But the person who wants to use sTP/DW gear says it's DW1 so how DARE you use long-standing scientific principles like Occam's Razor to say it's DW2. How dare you!

[Darka]

Ok with 25% haste on gear and suppa and DW +3 body. You need 9 STP for receive 5 tp per hit with DW1
With the same gear using Thief/dnc DW2 DW level determines your base TP/hit. Base TP/hit is multiplied by STP to determine your new TP/hit You need 12 STP for receive 5 tp per hit DW level determines your base TP/hit.

And on my parse you can see the diference the hits Thief/x vs thief/dancer. Is all ^^

A quick note for you. all i was saying about dancer is: Dancer have more offensive tools than thief, and ninja have access /war having the Utsusemi shadows protection.

A good thief can keep up with any job. And the ideas of atomic skull and karbuncle was awesome ideas.

Byrth's testing method is the standard used for testing DW and MA values, with 10 hits regardless of decimal tp values you'll end up with a round number, that and you may want to recheck your "STP values". With two 190 daggers (unless I'm reading something wrong here) with THF/DNC, Suppanomimi and DW3 body, it takes 7STP to round up to 5.0, not 12, it takes 12 with /NIN (DW3). Way to discredit your own test (aside from using STP being ridiculous in the first place).

[Xerius]

Thieves are whining because their abilities are being adjusted to work at longer ranges? Boo-hoo. At least you're not broken like SMN and being completely ignored.

[Nebo]

Thieves are whining because their abilities are being adjusted to work at longer ranges? Boo-hoo. At least you're not broken like SMN and being completely ignored.

I wouldn't worry too much about any job being completely ignored with updates. They've been doing a lot of minor tweaks with greater frequency to a lot of jobs. This update in June is just a minor one. There is a major version update coming with the level cap raise in August.


The level cap will be raised to 95 and accompanied by a broad range of changes; new content and job abilities will be added, and existing ones adjusted. This penultimate stage in the level cap increase will usher in large-scale changes while preserving balance in anticipation of the impending final rise to level 99.

A lot of THF are likely unhappy with this update specfically because out of all the things we would like to see addressed about the job, that is very low on our priority list.

Personally, the fact that they aren't seperating or shortening the recast timers makes it still pretty "meh" to me. A 5 minute recast on a job ability like Accomplice (or any of our steal abilities for that matter) is way too long. Accomplice is not worth it's own 5 minute recast timer let alone preventing Collaborator use for 5 minutes as well.

And there has been a lot of pretty "meh" stuff piling up for THF since the level cap raise that makes me scratch my head: Less than Sub Job level Dual Wield at level 83, Critical Attack Bonus given to lots of other jobs, Conspirator with silly restrictions, lolDespoil being totally worthless and sharing a recast with (Aura)Steal.

This update isn't terrible...at least it's somewhat useful. But this change isn't something I care about all that much.

[Karbuncle]

Thieves are whining because their abilities are being adjusted to work at longer ranges? Boo-hoo. At least you're not broken like SMN and being completely ignored.

Then go whine in one of the thousands of SMN threads and stop crapping up the THF forums.

Edit: We're not even complaining about getting an "adjustment", We're happy for the one we got, We're just upset thats all we got. (for now! Theres obviously going to be more in the future O_O, I know I'm waiting for that roadmap :O!)

Just like how you're upset SMN is getting ignored. If they announced a SMN update, and all they did was increase the range of BP:wards a bit more, would you not be like "What?"

[Taylin]

"Illusive" (IDC about names bite me ;;)
Allows use of Sneak Attack from sides or front of mob with Penalty to Damage boost.
(Back(normal): 100% DEX >)
(Sides: 75% of DEX)
(Front: 50% of DEX)

Sorry I just feel the need to comment on this post here...
Hide already does this better...

[Taylin]

Really I'm quite happy with Thief as it is, only thing I would like changed is Steal recast.

[Nebo]

Sorry I just feel the need to comment on this post here...
Hide already does this better...

Not really. Hide doesn't work on most things. Even for things that it does work on....its on a 5 minute recast. Much too long to be relevant even if it were useful for this purpose (but it's not so meh).

Seriously wtf is up with the developement team's obsession with giving THF 5 minute timers for everything? Only being able to use a job ability once every 30 fights is SUPER fun :rolleyes:.

Even if Hide did work on everything and had a short enough recast to be useful as a DD tool, it also sheds hate. Not so good if you are trying to tank/duo etc.

Don't get me wrong, if they lowered Hide recast to a 1 minute and made it actually WORK, I'd be happy for the DD tool...but I still don't think it would be a good solution.

[Karbuncle]

Sorry I just feel the need to comment on this post here...
Hide already does this better...

Except for you know, the 90% of the monster in the game that hide does not work on and all the True-Sight NMs you fight where its utterly pointless.

But yah, On the off chance you're fighting one of the 10% of mobs that detects and tracks completely on sight alone thats wonderful.

Plus. Every single relevant NM (Abyssea:Read) is True-Something. Hide does not work on those.

My adjustments were aimed more toward Thieves who low man. In my experience, any NM relevant today is True sight/sound. Hide does not work. So when I'm tanking say, Glavoid, or Orthrus, then im boned :X

Unless you're in a large group, of course. and you're not the tank. But Thief has evolved lately since 75, they're greater solo than they were before.

The idea is wanting those abilities to be useful in a small group, especially if you're tanking.

Edit: Plus yeah, 5 minute recast.

Edit2:


Really I'm quite happy with Thief as it is, only thing I would like changed is Steal recast.

I love my THF as well, Its a truly amazing job, I just wish it could be better. I've always thought of Thieves as the best at Critical hit. we had SA and TA, high DEF, daggers themselves were almost designed for Critical (low damage/delay).

Now it seems like MNK and WAR are getting so beefed up with Critical hit stuff (Blood Rage, Impetus) that Thief is just kinda like... "TH whore" status. Still.

My ideas of what Thieves should be are much different than SE's i suppose, I have to live with that. But i also like to vent >:X

[Taylin]

All good I kinda typed that post on no sleep so I wasnt thinking...

[Nebo]

A lot of people are happy with Abyssea THF (or jealous of..."THF is fine and already Overpowered WTF are you THFs whining for herp a derp derp"). Old content outside Abyssea is easier too because of the level cap increase. Things seem great for THF don't they?

All of these things are the past though.

I am very worried about our future. THF is popular inside Abyssea and useful not just as a TH whore because Atmas cater to our strengths and compensate for our weaknesses.

Those weaknesses have not gone away. They just haven't been shoved down our throat in a while.

Without these weaknesses being addressed, challenging new endgame content is going to leave THF behind. If this new Voidwatch system is any indication (no need for TH whatsoever)....yeah, I am worried.

[Taylin]

Yeah I haven't given Voidwatch a try yet, mostly because i'm in a lowman linkshell whose only interest atm is Empyreal weapons. But I really hope Thief gets something to compensate for its weaknesses outside of Abyssea.

[noodles355]

Native Subtle Blow, better native dual wield, making conspiritor not shit and making despoil not share a recast with Aura Steal would be a good start.

Seriously, Aura Steal is the only useful steal ability thief has. And it still has a terrible recast.

[RabidSquirrel]

Sorry I just feel the need to comment on this post here...
Hide already does this better...

Hey guys. The dude who made this post ^ is referring to the fact that you can sneak attack from any angle when hide is active. >_>

[Nebo]

Hey guys. The dude who made this post ^ is referring to the fact that you can sneak attack from any angle when hide is active. >_>

Did you read the posts after that one?

[Karbuncle]

Hey guys. The dude who made this post ^ is referring to the fact that you can sneak attack from any angle when hide is active. >_>

Yes >__> Any THF whos played the job more than a week knows this.

It simply is limited to a 5 minute timer and works on very few mobs, and works on almost no NMs, and no NMs in Abyssea for sure.