[dev1017] Zanshin Attacks and chat log

[Zhronne]

Stupid request, but I wonder if it would be possible to make a difference in the chatlog between regular attacks and zanshin attacks? For example

Zhronne's attack hits the Ramponneau for 234 damage.
Zhronne's zanshin attack hits the Ramponneau for 228 damage.

This way the chatlog would let us see the difference between these two different attacks and would make it easier for us to make a better evaluation of the impact Zanshin has on our overall performance.

[hiko]

just run a parser with 0 DA/TA/QA
then run with DA gear to see if stack or not

if rate is same than actual but on all hit /welcome 50% DA

maybe time to rework sam merit (lol zanshin rate+ )

[Zhronne]

Doubt it's gonna stack with DA, since Zanshin attacks have different properties according to Zanshin gear and Zanshin merits (Ikishoten etc), whereas doubleattacks and tripleattacks are exactely the same as your main attack.

It's probably gonna be like DA, TA, OAT, OA2-3 etc, where it's either one or the other that procs on each attack turn.
FFXI chat log is notoriously bad (PS2 limits etc), but a simple addition like this one seems even easier than the one they're about to implement (where they're gonna show the name of the player to procced a !! in Abyssea), so it seemed logical for me to ask :)


As for your merits doubts, I don't know if we're gonna give up Meditate merits in group1, maybe some STP merits though, especially since we're getting a new STP job trait, might be worth to take off a few merits there and put them in Zanshin.
About Ikishoten I don't know... maybe in place of Blade Bash/Shikikoyo? Most samurais used to go 1 Shiki 4 Blade 5 Overwhelm. Maybe take 3 out of Blade and put 'em in Ikishoten? (I'm just lame and I went 5 Shiki 5 Over...)

[scaevola]

More concerned with whether an increased counter rate on Seigan will make the ability on the whole less reliable for its actual purpose.

[Toren]

This also concerns me as well as the fact Double/Triple/Other things greatly decrease the chance to Zanshin reducing its usefulness.

That as well too since Counter reduces the chance for Third Eye to stay active as I would rather Third Eye stay active then Counter unless SE will give us the ability to earn TP from our Counters since they are not common anyway.

Edit: It would be nice if Zanshin also could activate on the first hit of a WS if it misses I think most other Sam's can testify for this as well especially when I know that I myself have gone out to Jugner Forest on my (90) Samurai and wiffed 3 GK WS's in a row... regardless of how much TP gain might come from Ikishoten merits and a Zanshin hit activate on a WS, I'd just rather have all those single hit WS misses fixed.

[Invasion]

They can't increase single hit WS accuracy as it's basically 95% already - bar insanely evasive mobs while you're blinded. All you experienced is bad luck.

[hideka]

pretty much sams going to have a 90% double attack chance in Abyssea now. yay. also your bad luck with WS's is from that 5% base evasion rate a monster will always have. you could drop a nuclear warhead inside of their anus, and they could still have a 5% chance to evade it.

[Toren]

I'm aware of the 5% chance to miss with capped acc against the mob what I meant was for SE to add Zanshin in as a possible chance to swing again on the first hit of a Weapon Skill if it misses or gets blocked since not only is there always a 5% chance to miss but if a mob can Guard or Parry it also can completely nullify a single hit WS assuming it doesn't Double attack or Triple attack.

[hiko]

That as well too since Counter reduces the chance for Third Eye to stay active as I would rather Third Eye stay active then Counter unless SE will give us the ability to earn TP from our Counters since they are not common anyway.

.

afaik never have been proved (and imo it not true)



hello nanatsusaya/5ikishoten build: normal+zanshin attack every round, 5hit build (ws+2rounds)

or a full set/omnipotent build

[Toren]

That is true I retract my earlier statement about the Counter's.

Edit: Although I would still like to eventually see a possibility of TP gain from counter even if its after the 99 cap.

[TheDirtyHobo]

pretty much sams going to have a 90% double attack chance in Abyssea now. yay. also your bad luck with WS's is from that 5% base evasion rate a monster will always have. you could drop a nuclear warhead inside of their anus, and they could still have a 5% chance to evade it.

Assuming this setup:
15% TA (Apoc atma)
25% DA (10 /war, 5 brutal, 3 atheling, 2 pole grip, 5 VV atma)
45% Zanshin (base SAM main rate if wiki isn't lying, no merits)

If Zanshin can only proc exclusively against DA/TA, and checks last:
Multihit rate = (15%) + ((1-15%) * 25%) + ((1-((1-15%)+(1-15%)*25%))*45%) = .15 (TA) + .2125 (DA) + .287 (Zanshin) = ~65%
Attacks per round = 1 + (.15 * 2) + (.2125 * 1) + (.287 * 1) = 1 + .3 + .2125 + .287 = 1.7995

If Zanshin can only proc exclusively against DA/TA, and check first:
Multihit rate = (45%) + ((1-45%) * 15%) + ((1-((1-45%) + (1-45%) * 15%)) * 25%) = .45 (Zanshin) + .0825 (TA) + .117 (DA) = ~65%
Attacks per round = 1 + (.45 * 1) + (.0825 * 2) + (.117 * 1) = 1.732

If Zanshin can proc mutually with DA/TA, but only on the first hit:
Multihit rate = (15%) + ((1-15%) * 25%) + ((1-((1-15%)+(1-15%)*25%))*45%) = .15 (TA) + .2125 (DA) + .287 (Zanshin) = ~65%
Attacks per round = 1 + (.15 * 2) + (.2125 * 1) + .45 = 1.9625

If Zanshin can proc mutually with DA/TA, on any of the hits:
Multihit rate = (15%) + ((1-15%) * 25%) + ((1-((1-15%)+(1-15%)*25%))*45%) = .15 (TA) + .2125 (DA) + .287 (Zanshin) = ~65%
Attacks per round = (1 + (.15 * 2) + (.2125 * 1)) * 1.45 = 2.19

Honestly, case 1 or 3 seems the most likely. No matter what, you aren't hitting anything like 90% multihit rate total, let alone DA rate, but you are close to averaging 1.9 swings/round.

Edit: Corrected with the info below. Thanks for pointing it out.

[hiko]

you did a little mistake :1 + .3 + .2125 + .287 = 1.8995 1.7995

will try to test unkai sugemino/domaru+2 enhance zanshin, but if sugemino is +5% it beat atheling in 1st case (need less to beat it in other case)

for test i was thinking hiting Om'hemped with signet staff (no skill)

[hiko]

parsing on fortalice
0 zanshin merit,0DA, sam/dnc unkai back :
3697 mele round
1496 +1 round
2937 missed on first attck
1496 da with miis first
=>50.93% zanshin rate

base zanshin 45%, back seems to be +5%
unkai will beat atheling

(edit with bigger number)

[hiko]

test with domaru+2 and sugemino and ace's
Missed First Attacks # DA w/Missed First Possible Zanshin %
2790 1762 63,15 %

body=+10-15%..

parsing with body only next

(need to get earring now)

edit: geared with haste to speed it a little but didnt notice gloves had zanshin
match with +10 body and +3 gloves (from ryozen test)

[hiko]

body only

# Missed First Attacks # DA w/Missed First Possible Zanshin %
3723 ___________________ 2111 _____ 56,70 %


>10%

[Laraul]

Stupid request, but I wonder if it would be possible to make a difference in the chatlog between regular attacks and zanshin attacks? For example

Zhronne's attack hits the Ramponneau for 234 damage.
Zhronne's zanshin attack hits the Ramponneau for 228 damage.

This way the chatlog would let us see the difference between these two different attacks and would make it easier for us to make a better evaluation of the impact Zanshin has on our overall performance.

Well you're never going to see the above since Zanshin only activates when you MISS. Really... it's not that hard to tell when it activates...

What FFXI needs is a more condensed log... not more...

Skillchains, Magic Bursts, Critical Hits, etc are so hard to see in the log when the occur. I'll leave this for another thread but so much junk fills the log so quickly.

[hiko]

Well you're never going to see the above since Zanshin only activates when you MISS. Really... it's not that hard to tell when it activates...

What FFXI needs is a more condensed log... not more...

Skillchains, Magic Bursts, Critical Hits, etc are so hard to see in the log when the occur. I'll leave this for another thread but so much junk fills the log so quickly.

read update notes


Samurai

A new job ability that readies its target for a skillchain will be added.
The effectiveness of the job trait Store TP will increase at level 90 instead of 91.
The job abilities Hasso and Seigan will be refined as follows:

Hasso

Hasso will now occasionally trigger Zanshin even after landing a normal attack.
Seigan

The likelihood that Seigan will cause Third Eye to counter an anticipated attack will be augmented with a bonus based upon the player's Zanshin attack rate.

[Ryozen]

parsing on fortalice
0 zanshin merit,0DA, sam/dnc unkai back :
3697 mele round
1496 +1 round
2937 missed on first attck
1496 da with miis first
=>50.93% zanshin rate

base zanshin 45%, back seems to be +5%
unkai will beat atheling

(edit with bigger number)
Mind sharing your testing method for this? What weapon were you using, and how are you counting the misses/double attacks?

[hiko]

signet staff (dmg1, no staff skill as sam/dnc) on zvahl fortalice
using kparser1.5.13

[Ryozen]

Cool. Thanks.

I don't suppose you have a Katana Strap? :D

[hiko]

just got one. will test it soon
trying to get earring too

[Ryozen]

Excellent. Thanks for doing the testing.

Edit: I'll try to do some testing on Ace's Mufflers tonight, when I'm on a less laggy connection.

[Ryozen]

Tested Ace's Mufflers last night:

7905 rounds with 10923 swings, missing 6295, and Zanshin activation accounting for 3018.

~47.94% activation rate, so Zanshin +3% or so on Ace's Mufflers.

[hiko]

fixed mistake I did in a previous test (didnt notice zanshin on hands)

grip only
# Missed First Attacks # DA w/Missed First Possible Zanshin %
--------- 4141 ---------------- 1990 ------------------- 48,06 %

=> 3%?

grip body hands back

# Missed First Attacks # DA w/Missed First Possible Zanshin %
------- 1681 ----------------------- 1118 ----------------- 66,51 %

45(jt)+3(grip)+10(body)+3(gloves)+5(back)

[Byrth]

Nice testing, guys! I've run the statistics on your results and the look legit. Most could be +/-1% of what you've decided on and the numbers would still work out, but the numbers you've picked do seem the best to me. Two other things you might be interested in:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Atma_of_the_Solitary_One
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Atma_of_Hell%27s_Guardian

Other untested Zanshin gear (ffxiah search):
* Amir Korazin
* Bushido Cape
* Jing. Greatsword
* Jingang Hose (maybe matters)
* Mujin Necklace (maybe matters)
* Unkai Mimikazari (maybe matters)
* Domaru +1 (probably 5%)
* Hachiryu stuff

If you feel like it in the future, the equation for 95% confidence intervals of binomial distributions (like the one you have) is:
Width = 1.96*SQRT( (Zanshin %)*(1- Zanshin%)/(Number of Missed First Attacks) )

[Toren]

Something I would like to bring up. It doesn't say anywhere Hasso's Zanshin rate will be based on our Zanshin rate... it's very possible Hasso attacks may get a fixed Zanshin rate.

[Byrth]

Anything is possible until post-update, but I'd assume they would have said, "We're giving you Double Attack with Hasso up" instead of "We're letting Zanshin proc with Hasso up" if they had meant to totally dissociate it from Zanshin.

[hiko]

they said it was zanshin attack =
- set bonus can proc on new "extra attack
- ikishoten boost new extra attack tp gain
- kikugosaku can triple attack (normal attack, zanshin attack, zanshin:occ attack twice)

imo base zanshin rate on landed hit with hasso up will be lower than rate on miss (10% like DA base rate?), enhancement from gears will stay the same, HG will be fixed when they notice sam can get 100% DA

[Ryozen]

Anyone begun parsing the new rate? I won't have a chance for a few days, unfortunately. I'm pretty excited to see the results.

[Invasion]

Hasso's new Zanshin rate works independently and is significantly less than 45%, maybe 10-15% (Only had 5mins of parsing before I had to leave), so I would also presume any enhances Zanshin gear only applies if you missed to proc Zanshin.

[Ryozen]

Hasso's new Zanshin rate works independently and is significantly less than 45%, maybe 10-15% (Only had 5mins of parsing before I had to leave), so I would also presume any enhances Zanshin gear only applies if you missed to proc Zanshin.

What gear were you wearing that had Zanshin bonuses, what sub were you using, and what were you fighting?

Thanks for the reply, but your post so far doesn't contain much information.

[Invasion]

No Zanshin gear, /NIN and Fortifications in Castle Zvhal or w/e the spelling.

[Invasion]

I was literally there for 5 minutes, thought I'd start from just trait Zanshin and work my way up, but I had to leave. There's no way it's based of your job trait unless I was extremely unlucky with proc.

[Ryozen]

It leaves Zanshin gear open, however. It will be very disappointing indeed if it has no effect on the Hasso proc rate.

[Malacite]

No Zanshin gear, /NIN and Fortifications in Castle Zvhal or w/e the spelling.

I was literally there for 5 minutes, thought I'd start from just trait Zanshin and work my way up, but I had to leave. There's no way it's based of your job trait unless I was extremely unlucky with proc.


So basically you eyeballed it for 5-min and are pulling stuff out of your...


Yeah, can we get some proper testing once the servers are back up please?

[Invasion]

Only if you promise not to 4hit your GK.

Also, if you read what I wrote I said I parsed it for 5 minutes, not eyeballing. Even with 5 minutes works it's fairly easy to work out the proc rate isn't near 45%, or like I also said - I could have just been unlucky.

[hiko]

very small samples :
ada mobs in A-T, katana strap, domaru+2,ace's, sugemino, 0DA gear/trait

# Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
195 ------- 167 ------- 1 ------- 28
# +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
28 ------- 0 ------- 0 ------- 0 ------- 0

# MultiAttack Rounds MultiAttack % Kills w/Min Attacks Kills w/<Min Attacks
28 ------- 17,18 % ------- 4 ------- 0

Missed First Attacks # DA w/Missed First Possible Zanshin %
10 ------- 7 ------- 70,00 %

same gear+ atma of solitary one 5%TA(/cry ,mess multi attack) enhance zanshin (+30%?)



# Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
296 ------- 213 ------- 1 ------- 83
# +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
56 ------- 12 ------- 1 ------- 0 ------- 0

# MultiAttack Rounds MultiAttack % Kills w/Min Attacks Kills w/<Min Attacks
69 ------- 32,55 % ------- 1 ------- 0


Treat As:

Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x):

# Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
56 ------- 26,42 % ------- 82,35 % ------- 12 ------- 5,66 % ------- 17,65 %




dont have HG nor nanatsuya

will run bigger test (with wooden GK) when i can let my char auto attack over night on fortalice (with no maint..)

[hiko]

quick testing with kikugosaku (+ myochin+1 that have been storaged for so long I forgot they had zanshin)

309 mele attack, 55 extra attack, 55 +1 round, 0 +2 round

THAT JUST SUCKS

[Malacite]

Since you're apparently so able to talk shit about the testing that others are doing, why don't you come up with the definitive answer, Malacite?

Otherwise, shut the fuck up.


Enjoy the report button.


Also, 5 minutes of blindly swinging does not make a definitive test - need to test it longer both with and without Zanshin mods, not just swing for 5 min with no gear on and then declare that +Zanshin doesn't work when you didn't have any +Zanshin on anyway.

[Ryozen]

Hey, thanks for quoting my comment. It would have been lost otherwise.

You are the only one who has yet to provide anything useful to this thread (or even this forum section), and yet you slink in here talking trash to people who are contributing first impressions.

Put out or get out.

Do some testing, or go the hell away with your nonsensical 4-hit builds (OMG GUISE I JUS SED POSIBLE LOL) and other ilk.

[Ryozen]

In other news, initial testing from other sources seems to point Hassanshin activation at 25% of normal Zanshin rate (trait + gear bonuses). If this turns out to be true, it's going to prove somewhat difficult to parse down to precise values from gear.

None of the previously tested values divide evenly by four, and we don't know how the rounding is handled. Worst case scenario, each piece's value is divided by four, floored, and and then added to the total. This seems like the most likely scenario. It would be nice if they summed everything first, but that doesn't seem like typical Squeenix style.

Hopefully tonight after events I'll be able to perform some more long-run tests.

[Frost]

In other news, initial testing from other sources seems to point Hassanshin activation at 25% of normal Zanshin rate (trait + gear bonuses). If this turns out to be true, it's going to prove somewhat difficult to parse down to precise values from gear.

None of the previously tested values divide evenly by four, and we don't know how the rounding is handled. Worst case scenario, each piece's value is divided by four, floored, and and then added to the total. This seems like the most likely scenario. It would be nice if they summed everything first, but that doesn't seem like typical Squeenix style.

Hopefully tonight after events I'll be able to perform some more long-run tests.

Most of what I've been reading says there seems to be a direct correlation between gear adding "Double Attack".

So are you saying gear might be more zanshin than it appears? Or that those people are exaggerating?

Mainly posting to bump... Cause you said you'd shed more light on this. If anyone else has input, please add.

(and if anyone knows the zanshin added by the Empyrean Earring, that's be good to know too.)

[Dirtyfinger]

I would assume the Unkai earring is 1% like the others.

[Ryozen]

Earlier in the thread we (mostly Hiko, while I did some confirmation testing) did testing on some of the Zanshin gear rates. Unkai body +2 is ~10% Zanshin, back is ~5%. From very early testing these don't seem to translate directly to Hassanshin rate, but rather provide a reduced bonus. Exactly how much it has been reduced isn't clear, but it seems that it may be around 25% of the original Zanshin rate.

Again, this is very preliminary testing, so none of this is confirmed. Hopefully some more in-depth testing can be performed soon.

[Byrth]

So, I was the one who hand-waved and made the Zanshin Rate*25% figure. It seems approximately correct based on the testing I've read across the forums. Also, I can make a further guess that it'll be Floor(Total Zanshin Rate/4), so 47% Zanshin would probably get you an 11% Hassanshin rate, 48% would be 12%. 100% Zanshin would cap out at 25% Hassanshin. I'd love to see further testing to confirm or disprove this hypothesis, but it seems the most reasonable given the way we know SE handles other things in the game.

As far as playstyle implications, I'm not sure there really are any. Ikishoten may be a good idea now because the other options are lackluster, but it still isn't a reliable part of an x-hit. Still, all of SAM's WSs are heavily modified by TP, so TP overflow doesn't hurt. It might be possible to make some kind of 6-hit that's a little heavy for 6 without sacrificing anything, and becomes a 5-hit when you get a Hassanshin proc.

[Ryozen]

Think it's more likely than Floor(GearA/4) + Floor(GearB/4) + Floor(GearC/4) + Floor(GearD/4) + Floor(Trait/4) ?

Maybe I'm just preparing myself for disappointment, but that seems more in line with Squeenix flooring at what seems to be just about every goddamn possible point.

[Arlan]

Stupid request, but I wonder if it would be possible to make a difference in the chatlog between regular attacks and zanshin attacks? For example

Zhronne's attack hits the Ramponneau for 234 damage.
Zhronne's zanshin attack hits the Ramponneau for 228 damage.

This way the chatlog would let us see the difference between these two different attacks and would make it easier for us to make a better evaluation of the impact Zanshin has on our overall performance.

This isn't a Stupid Request.
I actually think its a cleaver one.

I play on xbox, so i dont use praiser or w/e third party programs PC players use.
I would like SE to add this request the OP is asking for as well because it can be very beneficial for all players from what I see.

Note: not everyone plays on PC.

Nice post.

[Byrth]

Think it's more likely than Floor(GearA/4) + Floor(GearB/4) + Floor(GearC/4) + Floor(GearD/4) + Floor(Trait/4) ?

Maybe I'm just preparing myself for disappointment, but that seems more in line with Squeenix flooring at what seems to be just about every goddamn possible point.

I'd bet it's not individual flooring steps. That would be more work on their end.

Also, it's not possible to separate Zanshins from normal attacks.

[Malacite]

Hey, thanks for quoting my comment. It would have been lost otherwise.

You are the only one who has yet to provide anything useful to this thread (or even this forum section), and yet you slink in here talking trash to people who are contributing first impressions.

Put out or get out.

Do some testing, or go the hell away with your nonsensical 4-hit builds (OMG GUISE I JUS SED POSIBLE LOL) and other ilk.

And your incessant, 12-year old trolling just exudes knowledge and profound, divine wisdom.

Get over yourself, please.

[Ryozen]

Attacking a Fortalice with Wooden Katana and Sword Strap, otherwise naked:
1315 rounds, 1254 of which the first hit connected. Of these, 139 have had a second round.
~11.08%, which would follow floor(Zanshin/4).

Continuing to parse for now.

Byrth, do you think you could provide some info on how many rounds (or Hassanshin procs) it would take for a 95% confidence interval? I'm afraid my statistical knowledge is pretty weak.


blah blah blah
If you don't actually contribute to this thread with your next post, you're going on my black-list on yet another forum.

[Ryozen]

4065 melee rounds, 3880 of which the first hit connected. Of these, 335 have had a second round

Base Hassanshin Rate ~11.44% ±1.00%; in the neighborhood of 25% of base Zanshin rate.

Going to start working on a data set for Unkai Domaru+2 and Sugemino. Expecting something around 15%, if gear is treated the same way as the base trait.

[Ryozen]

Looks like Hassanshin doesn't proc on WS. Very sad. :(

[Leylia]

I did some testing for the "Hassashin" ability with gear on today. Granted it is not extremely much but at such a "high rate" accurate enough.

Gear used:
Domaru +2 (+10)
Sugemino (+5)
Mimikazari (+?)

I had 624 Melee rounds (no miss ones) and I got 102 extra attacks with said set on seaboard vultures in Misareaux. 8 of these were "triple attacks" thanks to the Kikugosaku I am using. That said I had 94 attack rounds where Zanshin triggered which leaves me of at a trigger rate of 15.85%.

This pretty much confirmes (goes along with) the Zanshin/4 = Hassashin idea. It also means that maybe the zanshin rate of the earring is higher than 1% but for that one has to do way more attack rounds.

[Ryozen]

Funny you mention it.

I just finished doing some testing on the Unkai Mimikazari. Fourth Staff, Mimi, otherwise naked.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o91/Nyosan/Mimikazari.jpg

47.44% ±1%, which doesn't really help a determine if it's 2% or 3%. 2.5% perhaps, but I'd be a little surprised if it wasn't a whole number value.

[Taint2]

Funny you mention it.

I just finished doing some testing on the Unkai Mimikazari. Fourth Staff, Mimi, otherwise naked.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o91/Nyosan/Mimikazari.jpg

47.44% ±1%, which doesn't really help a determine if it's 2% or 3%. 2.5% perhaps, but I'd be a little surprised if it wasn't a whole number value.


Good stuff!