Unbalanced racial traits.

[Glitch]

I have been playing a Taru since PS2 release in the US (before that I was playing a Galka and switched when I got my 2nd account), and I've loved it for years.

However, after the release of Abyssea I found that there were many things that pose a near-impossible challenge for Tarutaru because of the directly proportionate widening of the HP gap between the least (Taru) and greatest (Galka) max HP pool. Inside Abyssea Tarutaru melees tend to get one-shotted by attacks that a Galka or Elvaan simply scoff at. Even Humes and Mithra find no difficulty standing up to attacks that lay a poor Taru into critical HP or worse. Outside of Abyssea it's not so bad. There are still very few things a Taru can't do that another race could.

Before this comes across as a complaint, which to some I'm sure it already has, I would point out that it's more a point of balance or the lack thereof.
Tarutaru having low HP is offset by a high MP pool. The problem is that both are disproportionately lower/higher than that of the other races when compared to the next step up/down i.e. The differences between Hume/Mithra and Elvaan and between Elvaan and Galka are significantly less than the differences between Tarutaru and Hume/Mithra.

The enhancements to HP and MP in Abyssea amplifies the gap considerably. On the other hand, due to the high level of refresh that can be obtained rather easily in Abyssea the higher MP pool of the Tarutaru does not provide a benefit equal to the disadvantage to HP. Before someone makes an obvious point let me clarify that statement. Yes, there are things that Taru mages can do that Galka and Elvaan cannot, and sometimes even Hume or Mithra. The point is, there are a great deal more things that these races are capable of on melee jobs that Taru simply are not, or have a nearly impossible time doing.

According to the most widely accepted Enmity formula, Max HP plays a measurable role in determining both Enmity gain and retention. This is indeed noticeable when comparing two equally equipped tanks of Taru and any other race.

Outside Abyssea, as I mentioned before, the gap isn't as extreme and players can be happy with the balance of a particular race's strengths compared to others. However, as refresh has also become increasingly easier to stack up, the gap is beginning to widen slowly. As level caps increase and more and better sources of refresh become available it will grow.

The ability score gap between races is rather negligible in Abyssea. Yes, a Taru will out-nuke any other race when equally geared/atma'd/etc. Other races will be the top of the pyramid in other abilities, like weaponskills that correspond to their highest ability and so on. The ability score gap, while noticeable, is well balanced and makes little difference to the overall capabilities of any job for any race. Instead, it does just as it was intended to do; distinguish each race in their natural roles without unbalancing their capabilities.

Specific equipment has been added that counterbalances each race's weaknesses, and a lot of it. But let's face it, who doesn't laugh at the Elvaan BLM who's wearing a crap-ton of MP+ gear instead of full MAB/INT for nuking? The same can be said of Tarutaru on melee jobs. If you are wearing HP+ equips you are sacrificing STR, DEX, Accuracy, Attack Power, special traits such as Double Attack %, or Haste %.

My point. I would very much like to see some way to balance the large gap between the highest and lowest Max HP and Max MP pools within Abyssea. Perhaps special Atma available only to each race that is comparable to some of the popular ones for the jobs that the race is at a disadvantage on, but with added benefits to HP or MP to help bridge the gap a little. Or maybe special quests that grant an extra racial Abyssite that enhances the necessary attribute.

[DebbieGibson]

Just play Monk. Then strip off all your AF3 in front of everybody!

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're getting one shot on a frequent basis you're doing it wrong/don't know what PDT/MDT/eleresist sets/shell do. Also get merit abyssites it isn't that hard for Taru melee to tank anything, less leeway sure but getting oneshot consistently doesn't happen if you're prepared.

[wish12oz]

If you're getting one shot on a frequent basis you're doing it wrong/don't know what PDT/MDT/eleresist sets/shell do. Also get merit abyssites it isn't that hard for Taru melee to tank anything, less leeway sure but getting oneshot consistently doesn't happen if you're prepared.

This^


Also: GO CAT DEX 4TW!

[Meyi]

I thought you were going to mention how at 75, Elvaan had like +5 more STR than Tarus but Tarus had +7 more INT than Elvaan. (I don't know if this is still unbalanced at 90 or if it'll be unbalanced at 99).

Other than that, races have always had their pros and cons. It's not so bad that the majority of it can't be offset by armor. And now, with Abyssea, you can level so fast that you could always make another character for that job.

[RAIST]

Merits? Not sure just how big the disparity is at 90...but I would like to think +120 from merits could take up a good chunk of that slack.

Edit:
http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/i/kinematicf/FFXI/StatCalculator/

According to this app, max hp merits covers around 1/2 of the base gap from Taru to Hume, about 1/4 the gap to Galka. Not perfect, but it's a start I guess.

[Alhanelem]

Merit HP.

I'm galka, tend to play jobs with MP, and put most of my hp/mp merits into MP. You put yours in HP, it closes the gap. Your RSE gear boosts HP. You can offset these racial differences.

[rog]

You can offset these racial differences.
No, actually you cannot. Galkas can merit hp, and tarus can merit int too, fyi. And RSE is entirely worthless.

[Kincard]

Things are definitely stacked against Tarutarus in Abyssea, because a couple fights into the content you'll have essentially infinite MP, which makes the MP advantage that Tarutarus have pointless. Base stat differences don't matter much at all because the boosts are so large that they tend to overshadow the few points that racial differences have.

Basically, the problem isn't that there's racial differences, but that Abyssea made it so that only one really matters (HP).

And as Rog said, RSE is completely worthless.

[rog]

Things are definitely stacked against Tarutarus in Abyssea, because a couple fights into the content you'll have essentially infinite MP, which makes the MP advantage that Tarutarus have pointless.
True for whm. Not at all true for nukers, especially for blm with manawall (though of course even without using manawall, you can easily nuke through mp very quickly).

Max mp is even more useful in abyssea actually, because cruor buffs are stacked for hp over mp, so convert (which every mage/rdm has now) is basically a matter of getting mp as high as possible. Also, martellos and elixirs recover mp based on your max mp. The higher your max mp, the faster you can recover it.

[Cruentus]

Honestly, this is simply what you get for trying to make a Tarutaru do a physical job. You should have stuck with being a black mage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: I don't know how calculating physical damage works.

[Alhanelem]

No, actually you cannot. Yes, actually you can


And RSE is entirely worthless. No, it's not. It certainly wasn't worthless to me playing DRK, where you have like 5 MP if you're a Galka or 6 MP if you're elvaan.

[rog]

Yes, actually you can

No, it's not. It certainly wasn't worthless to me playing DRK, where you have like 5 MP if you're a Galka or 6 MP if you're elvaan.
If a galka has 300 hp more than a taru without merits, what is the difference in hp when both have 12 hp merits?

And drk is a pretty terrible example. I mean, if you had said something like elvaan rse for low level blm, then sure, but lol.

[Selzak]

Outside Abyssea:
base MP > base HP

Inside Abyssea:
base HP > base MP


Deal with it... Tarutarus have had the advantage in this gap for years, and when that finally changes and becomes situational, suddenly racial stats are unfair.

[rog]

Outside Abyssea:
base MP > base HP

Inside Abyssea:
base HP > base MP


Deal with it... Tarutarus have had the advantage in this gap for years, and when that finally changes and becomes situational, suddenly racial stats are unfair.Actually it is situational regardless of where you are. I am happy being a taru, and would not change to any other race if i had the choice.

[Charismatic]

I've always thought Elvaan was the best race in the game because I find the stat spread to be favorable for everything save a couple of jobs. Seriously, there's maybe 2-3 jobs where I felt being Elvaan gave a notable disadvantage (before abyssea anyway).
In this Abyssea era, I don't even care anymore. Base stats hardly mean a thing anymore since everything's boosted up to retarded levels and everything is super easy. Hell, I don't even know what the stat gaps look like anymore because I just don't care.


I personally think Mithra is and always has been the worst race in the game stat-wise... so I don't think any taru should be complaining!

[Alhanelem]

And drk is a pretty terrible example. I mean, if you had said something like elvaan rse for low level blm, then sure, but lol. It's not a terrible example. It's a valuable example. RSE is specifically there for when you need to compensate for racial differences.

[rog]

It's not a terrible example. It's a valuable example. RSE is specifically there for when you need to compensate for racial differences.
No, it is there for when it is better than other available gear.

[Dfoley]

Dont the base stats for attributes cap at 99? Making most of the stat related issues pointless other then hp/mp.

I know my monk is at 99 base str and I could have sworn that was before I put the final point into it (for my pup and drg which arent capped).

So if its just hp you are concerned about....meh, try being an elvan mage outside of abyssea with a cure spell that takes litterally 1/5 your mp bar or a nuke that drains 1/4th of it.

[rog]

Dont the base stats for attributes cap at 99? Making most of the stat related issues pointless other then hp/mp.

I know my monk is at 99 base str and I could have sworn that was before I put the final point into it (for my pup and drg which arent capped).

So if its just hp you are concerned about....meh, try being an elvan mage outside of abyssea with a cure spell that takes litterally 1/5 your mp bar or a nuke that drains 1/4th of it.No, my blm has 101 base int.

if you care: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll220/ffxiRog/101int.jpg

[Riggs]

I agree, Abyssea is all about who has the most HP

But they need to increase the hp of all races not decrease them

[Alhanelem]

Attribute differences are trivial, especially in abyssea where everyone's stats are inflated. HP/MP has always been the biggest difference.

Max HP has always been a far bigger concern than max MP. One of my primary jobs is summoner... I still have more MP than I could try to use. Despite haivng the most, the job really doesn't need as much as it gets (and INT is also totally irrelevant to a summoner)

[rog]

Max HP has always been a far bigger concern than max MP.
Not really. Max hp does absolutely nothing, unless you are in danger of being one shotted, which is basically never, except on things like rapido, which will oneshot you regardless of your max hp.

[svengalis]

I just think its funny that I have more HP without cruor buffs then tarus have with cruor buffs.

[rog]

I just think its funny that I have more HP without cruor buffs then tarus have with cruor buffs.
You have over 2k hp without buffs? Or are you comparing galka mnk to taru smn?

[Alaik]

As stated on the first page, base stats outside of MP/HP taru were nowhere near the most FUBARed and MP is and always will be more important than HP. lol@implying hate is hard to cap regardless of your HP, one more attack round for a taru THF which is what? 1.3 seconds?

[scaevola]

MP efficiency mattered for most of FFXI's history, but since it doesn't in Abyssea, it may be instructive to look at WoW raiding to see what Elitist Jerks and Tankspot have to say. People have been debating it for 6 years now, but nobody has been able to satisfactorily debunk the claim that in a situation with functionally unlimited MP, the only thing that matters on the tank (or anyone taking damage for that matter) is Max HP. The difference between being dead in 3 full-strength hits and 4 full-strength hits is huge, and to argue that the split between Galka HP and Taru HP doesn't matter is insane.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: Still not sure how damage calculations work. Or maybe I'm wrong and the amount of times being killed in one more hit happens a lot more to people other than what I've seen/experienced, I just don't know.

[Fearforever]

this needs to be sorted out, im tired of being a Lv90 taru NIN with all 6 abyssites of merit and only having 2.1-2.5k HP and a hume friend of mine has 4/6 merit abyssites with over 3k HP on a BLU >.>

[Neisan_Quetz]

The base HP difference (before buffs) between the 2 is a little over 200 HP... seems to me you're missing out on a lot of info.

EDIT: base difference is less/more depending on sub of course.

[rog]

The difference between being dead in 3 full-strength hits and 4 full-strength hits is huge, and to argue that the split between Galka HP and Taru HP doesn't matter is insane.
It doesn't matter when you can survive 10+ hits. There are no realistic situations where you would take that many hits without a single cure, and so there is absolutely no difference.

[Auredant]

so not true...ill take an elvaan whm anyday....elvaan blus are decent as well...and as u said urself, max mp for whm isnt that important in abbyssea...so ill take the race with the highest mnd tyvm.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Who still takes full strength hits (if they're that highly damaging) in the first place if you had half a brain? 2007 has past son.

[Hoshi]

I don't find it more difficult to keep tarutaru tanks up vs humes or elvaan tanks (we lack galkas so I can't make that comparison T.T). Most of the tanks in my shell are taru and it doesn't feel like a huge disadvantage. I don't tank so I can only observe others but I am almost always a support job in a tank party. Regardless of job they tank on it seems like the largest difference between tanks who live and tanks who don't make it is good support, smart use of JAs and items, and proper gear swaps. As far as melee being squishy, I'm not convinced that's a taru-centric problem. I'm leaning more toward the PDT/MDT sets (or lack thereof).

[scaevola]

It doesn't matter when you can survive 10+ hits. There are no realistic situations where you would take that many hits without a single cure, and so there is absolutely no difference.

Then nothing matters at all, and FFXI theorycraft is completely obsolete.


Which may be the case.


As far as melee being squishy, I'm not convinced that's a taru-centric problem. I'm leaning more toward the PDT/MDT sets (or lack thereof).

The WoW version of PDT (there is no gear-based MDT but WoW PvE magic damage is generally designed to be avoided, not survived) is Armor, which is generally lumped together with HP by tanks and theorycrafters under the umbrella term "effective health". Increasing your Armor/PDT increases your effective health, because the flat, constant damage reduction of Armor/PDT basically makes each point of your HP count more. When talking about PDT/MDT, you are talking about HP expressed in a different mechanic, HP the Galka still has more of.

More importantly, a taru and a galka can both wear the same mdt/pdt gear and would do so in the same situations. The latter has all the survivability options of the former and 15-20% more HP on top of that. It's absurd and always needed to be fixed, even if it only now became more obvious in Abyssea.

[Alaik]

The WoW equivalent would be resillience in PvP and turns out, there are plenty of pieces that don't focus primarily on stamina (The HP raising stat) but have resillience that are used for exactly the same reason as PDT/MDT sets. To lower damage. In fact barring tank jobs who have a choice of amazing armor/STR/stamina all in one, most jobs don't survive well even if they do have nice HP. A rogue can hit 130k HP, but he's still gonna use vanish if he pulls hate on a boss.

Also, comparing WoW to FFXI is really not wise, two VERY different games.

[Rezeak]

Skill and gear will out weight race choices massivly to the point were race choice doesn't matter at all.

Getting one shot: This my friend is more down to you or your healer than your race unless your healer is letting you die cause of taru death TH.
Point here is if a mob can one shot you when ur tanking u are lacking something to tank it (atma, gear,skill or job) or the mob can just one shot pple thats all there is to it race has never been a factor here.

HP vs MP : the agument here is max mp isn't important cause of refresh or w/e... either way i still notice BLMs WHMs and SMNs running out of mp so mp pools still matter to the point if your losing mp overtime a taru will outlast any mage. (even tho other factors matter more than mp)

HP and hate : hate is broken atm anyone that can do a 3k WS will instantly cap VE hate which hp loss effects.
Races max hp is way way way way....x100.... way way down there as a reason someone doesn't have hate.

[Bumbeen]

Not going to have easy abyssea forever(hopefully), taru sucks compared to galka for tanking the end. subject close.

[scaevola]

The WoW equivalent would be resillience in PvP and turns out, there are plenty of pieces that don't focus primarily on stamina (The HP raising stat) but have resillience that are used for exactly the same reason as PDT/MDT sets. To lower damage. In fact barring tank jobs who have a choice of amazing armor/STR/stamina all in one, most jobs don't survive well even if they do have nice HP. A rogue can hit 130k HP, but he's still gonna use vanish if he pulls hate on a boss.

Also, comparing WoW to FFXI is really not wise, two VERY different games.

DDs in general in FFXI are equivalent to WoW tanks; DDs in WoW are much less durable on the whole but won't pull aggro unless somebody actually did something wrong. As for resilience, are you suggesting that max HP doesn't matter in PvP?

[Zumi]

Well you picked Tarutaru probably knowing full well they have less HP then the other races and now you're complaining about them having less HP?

Should of picked another race if you wanted to have more HP seriously.

[Glitch]

As I imagined, this isn't very constructive.

I apologize for not being more clear in my original post.
The entire reason for this thread was not to debate whether the hp gap is unbalanced because there's absolutely no question about it. It is; I simply listed the facts as to why. The point was to gather constructive opinions about how to deal with it, or if it was the intention of the Dev team to push races into certain roles so much so that they actually find some jobs very limited.

Many of the points I already covered were still brought up as counter arguments, so I'll address a few of them directly.

The difference between Taru and Hume/Mithra HP is ~200 at level 90.
The difference between Hume and Elvaan is only ~100, between Elvaan and Galka is only ~100. Thus only proving my point that it is not proportionate.
While the MP gaps are fairly similar, they are not quite as large. Couple that with the fact that Cruor buffs add a higher % to hp than to mp and it increases the HP gap vs. the MP gap.
Finally, attacks from high level mobs and NMs do much more damage relative to any race's max hp than the cost of spells relative to max mp. This means that even a 1 for 1 trade off would not be balanced.

Obviously, if you aren't finding tarus getting 1 shotted by powerful AoEs and tp moves you are referencing fights that use strategies that do not fit in to the profile that my post was designed to address.
For the record, mobs that you just have a tank and maybe 1 DD on while the mages spam cure do not count toward the "if you're getting 1 shotted you're doing it wrong" argument. That's an pointless statement because it's so blatantly obvious. Obviously I'm not including those situations on either side of the argument. I am only referring to situations that are not a matter of skill when it comes to taking damage. Try being the whm and curing your tank while staying out of range of tp moves that have greater than 20 yalms AoE. There are times where my LS uses only the Galka whms within curing range of the tanks for just this reason.

Even more disturbing is people believing that there are no mobs that can kill you with 3-4 hits before a mage can have the opportunity to cure you. Ever heard of triple attack? Or how about those times when you accidentally hit Turul when his spikes were up at 10% hp and you are still trying to proc TH? While any other race survives most of the time, a Taru will almost always eat dirt. (Tip: Smart thfs of any race will 1-hand their thief's knife when fighting mobs like this to avoid committing suicide.)

Grab a taru WAR and have him/her cleave for you. It works, but you almost need an extra whm to make sure he/she doesn't die if sleeps are late.
Grab a taru and have him tank ICs, or tank Rani or Pantokrator while proc'ing before brew. Better yet, have a Taru on any job tank Indrik and eat scintillating lance followed by a critical hit because mighty strikes is up. I've seen tanks of other races get killed by these things too, but for Taru it's almost 100% certainty. The list starts to get pretty big if you stop and think about how many of the endgame NMs have rather devastating attacks or spells.
I'm not saying it can't be done, for most of them. I'm saying that you have to be pretty incredible to do it.

The argument of trying to offset the disadvantages is, and I apologize for the offensive term, ignorant.
Anything you can do to offset the difference weakens you in the core abilities of the job in comparison to a race that doesn't have to use it. This is absolutely the way the game was designed to work, and rightfully so. The problem is that thes sacrifices can be too significant. Arguing to use atmas or abyssites to offset the low hp is even more ignorant because you didn't stop to think that the other races will have the same abyssites and access to the same atmas, which all function on a percentage base and simply amplify the hp gap by twice the amount that they amplify the mp gap.

Someone even dropped an argument to the general effect of "stick to mage jobs". Which, if taken seriously, doesn't even merit any more of a response.

If you still think mp is problematic enough outside of abyssea for the extra mp of a taru to make anywhere close to the difference the low hp makes you need to check your mages and maybe hire new ones. I know several galka mages that never run into mp problems and they are very good at what they do. Let's do some math. RDM refresh 2 = 5/tic, ballads with +2 brd pants and crooner's add up to 9/tic; and I'd like to point out that the pants and harp are rather easy to obtain. That's higher than abyssea refresh with just the two standard jobs that have always been in charge of refreshing mages. The bright side is, as my original statements mentioned, the hp gap outside of abyssea isn't really all that prohibitive either.

Now, I did fail to mention that because of the ridiculously low enmity cap the fact that hp plays a role in enmity equations is not of great concern. I was simply making a point that it is just another disadvantage that adds to the disproportionate
penalties Taru suffer compared to their strengths. I would like to mention that if the enmity cap was raised significantly, while the hp gap still wouldn't be terribly dividing for enmity, it would be more noticeable.

If you haven't found Taru hp to be a significant drawback to those members of your linkshell during abyssea events there's only a couple of explanations. Either your Taru melees are incredible or you aren't fighting the kind of mobs I was talking about in my original post. I mean that with no offense. I'm not calling anyone a noob or w/e.

This is the last I'll see of this thread. I'm not even going to bother visiting the forum again for a month or so and I won't bother to search for it later. Please dispose with the arguing and criticism and offer constructive thoughts that the Devs can read.

[Romanova]

Well you picked Tarutaru probably knowing full well they have less HP then the other races and now you're complaining about them having less HP?

Should of picked another race if you wanted to have more HP seriously.

This is a silly counter to his point imo. A lot of people made their characters 9 years ago. To say they now have to be stuck with that fault forever is rather silly.

I love the ffxi system of being able to do things all on one character, but that doesn't mean we need to deny some faults with that system as well. While you have to do things separate in other mmos it's a lot easier to lvl a new character over again in them vs. trying to rebuild a 9 year old character from scratch that at this point probably contains an insane amount of jobs/gear/mission completions/etc. etc.

[Fearforever]

^ What Glitch (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/members/9144-Glitch) said.

If the current trend continutes for the rest of FFXI's life in endgame (HP buffs etc.) the HP issue needs to be fixed so they're in-line with other races.

My main char is a taru (usually NIN) with 6/6 Abyssites of merit my 2nd char (a Mithra) has more HP on WHM with only 4/6 abyssites.

I know tarus are ment to have less HP than a Mithra but no way should a Mithra WHM with 12 MP merits have more HP than my NIN with 12 HP merits + 6/6 merit abyssites.

tarus NEED more base hitpoints on the climb to 99 or anything worth doing would likely kill off a taru tank in 1-2 shots.

[Malamasala]

Only balance issue I've seen is that taru MP is so great that they get an unfair advantage with Myrkr.

[Coldbrand]

Maybe you shouldn't of picked such terrible (non-Galka) races then.

[Meyi]

I'm a Taru and I rarely have an issue with HP. I die a lot but that's due to my own cockiness, not my race; I died just as much on my Elvaan.

Think of lack of HP as a great discipline. Galka and Elvaan White Mages had to conserve their MP back in the day and watch how much they casted versus resting. And in a Taru's defense, we have the best Intelligence, the highest magic, and the second best Agility. You shouldn't have to worry about HP; you should be able to evade it. :)

I like the races having their own unique status. But I have to agree that the gaps are a little too large. It'd be nice to see them condensed a little. At least Abyssea helps with this gap bridging, for the most part.

[Coldbrand]

No. Homogeny is the worst kind of design. I'm not looking to play World of Warcraft and it's 5% difference between roles crap.

[Xellith]

Just give races extra bonuses. Galka ws bonus. Elvaan magic dmg-% bonus. Mithra crit bonus. tarutaru physical damage taken-% bonus. Hume a minor of everything? w/e I knew i was gonna get screwed as a taru when I started... but taru are so cooooool :)

[Fearforever]

Maybe you shouldn't of picked such terrible (non-Galka) races then.

Back when i started playing the game i choose taru because of the looks, i liked it.

I didn't know anything about tarus lack of HP untill it was too late, there is very little infomation on the character creation screen, it does list HP/MP but it doesnt stand out at all.

why should I be punished with over 400-600 HP LESS than a Galka inside abyssea when a Galka WHM only has 100-250MP LESS than a taru... is that fair? No.

[Alaik]

Back when i started playing the game i choose taru because of the looks, i liked it.

I didn't know anything about tarus lack of HP untill it was too late, there is very little infomation on the character creation screen, it does list HP/MP but it doesnt stand out at all.

why should I be punished with over 400-600 HP LESS than a Galka inside abyssea when a Galka WHM only has 100-250MP LESS than a taru... is that fair? No.

100-250 MP Less? You're full of it.

[Romanova]

No. Homogeny is the worst kind of design. I'm not looking to play World of Warcraft and it's 5% difference between roles crap.


WoW uses healing spells , we should just get rid of those too. You know...because WoW sucks and we shouldn't ever have anything like them.


(they are also not the first MMO to try and balance racial classes, hi2u EQ).

[Zumi]

Back when i started playing the game i choose taru because of the looks, i liked it.

I didn't know anything about tarus lack of HP untill it was too late, there is very little information on the character creation screen, it does list HP/MP but it doesnt stand out at all.

why should I be punished with over 400-600 HP LESS than a Galka inside abyssea when a Galka WHM only has 100-250MP LESS than a taru... is that fair? No.

That's not really a good excuse there were tons of guides out there before FFXI even came out in the US, about the races pros and cons. For example importer sites like FFXIonline.com had detailed guides about the races and jobs.

Basically your saying that race should just be for looks and have very little to do with stats like they did on FFXIV? SE could change it but then picking a race would be irrelevant if everyone had the exact same stats and hp/mp values.

[Romanova]

That's not really a good excuse there were tons of guides out there before FFXI even came out in the US, about the races pros and cons.

which is what caused a ton of manthras out there because brady guide made it sound like if you wanted to be a thief you HAD to be a mithra. Just because there were guides, doesn't mean those guides were good, and that a decision made 9 years ago has to be the same forever.


Basically your saying that race should just be for looks and have very little to do with stats like they did on FFXIV? SE could change it but then picking a race would be irrelevant if everyone had the exact same stats and hp/mp values.

I actually see nothing wrong with this. When I tried FFXIV the ratio of different races seemed to be about the same as FFXI (but oddly enough a little more galka).


I actually think what they could do if they refuse to allow a race change option, then they could add merits to "balance" the races.

ie. taru can put an extra 20 merits into hp to be at the same place as galk hp. Galka can put w/e extra mp merits it is to have the same amount as tarus. Do this for all races, so at least it's something they have to work for.


I would also not mind the race change option (I love my model, but again I know lots who picked their model 9 years ago based on lolbrady guide, and should have the option to change if they want to).

[Zumi]

brady guide might of been bad, however there were plenty of guides on the internet created by import players that were actually good.

[Romanova]

brady guide might of been bad, however there were plenty of guides on the internet created by import players that were actually good.

when the game first came out most people were still using dial up. Only reason I was even able to try ffxi in the first place was because I had a ps2 (my comp would never had been able to handle it).

Access to information was way different back then then it is now. Only guide I remember back when it first came out that was actually in English was mysterytour. And then not everything was translated, or it was hard to understand. then when somepage.com came out it was a godsend. (still miss that site, don't go there though it's full of viruses).


Take a moment and really think about what you're saying. Is it really the end of the world if people after 9 years want to change? really? Is it really going to break the game if they balance out the races? I don't see the harm in it whatsoever.


Also, even remotely thinking that guides back during release knew what we know now would be insane, ontop of the glaring fact as mentioned in this thread those guides obviously didn't take into account abyssea or lvl 90s.


[edit] nor let's not forget for example someone when first starting the game wanted to be a blm so rolled a taru and played it for 7+ years, then decide they want to do something new and be a pld or nin and never getting to use it because they rolled a taru 7 years ago.

[Fearforever]

I live in the UK and FFXI had ZERO advertisements or guides out over here for at least 1 year after EU release, so when i started I knew nothing and there was no help around because I didn't know about any US fansites.

choosing a race shouldn't be all about stats and HP it should be about general looks, since everyone perfers different chars.

I'd like for the gap to be closed up abit, like an earlier poster said there is a 100HP~ difference between Mithra/Hume/Elvaan/Galka yet a taru has twice that gap between the races

[scaevola]

tarus NEED more base hitpoints on the climb to 99 or anything worth doing would likely kill off a taru tank in 1-2 shots.


Or put another way, anything that wouldn't 2-shot a Taru would be completely trivial for a Galka, so either the game is balanced to be an impossible meat-grinder for Tarus or to allow Galkas to go on autopilot. What's it gonna be?

[Habiki]

With how easy it is to lvl and gear a character with abyssea you would think instead of just complaining about current races stats people would just lvl a mule with w/e race they wanted to be it costs a dollar.

Originally SE invisioned people having one job per character and because the player base decided to not go that way due to the difficulty at the time it lead to many other problems down the road like current inventory issues.

Instead of asking constantly for changes to racial stats on these forums take one day and lvl the job you want with the race you want, being able to send your mules seals you could start collecting all the ones you need for your new character.

This way everyone doesnt look exactly the same with the same capabilitys, each race has its own strong points and weakness's and should be used to the playerbases advantage not frowned upon because people can't bother to gear correctly to survive.

Doing crazy damage is nice and all but if your lying on the floor dead your not doing things right, because your damage is all you care about. That five minutes being weakened takes way more from your dmg then using a PDT set or MDT set.

[Korpg]

Actually, I think Hume got the short end of the stick there.

I mean, look at the other races. They excel at something, usually 2 things.

Hume? Just CHR....who cares about CHR? BST to charm anything? BRD to sing songs? CHR has become one of the most useless stats in this game, and that is the ONLY thing Humes are good for.....

[Fearforever]

Actually, I think Hume got the short end of the stick there.

I mean, look at the other races. They excel at something, usually 2 things.

Hume? Just CHR....who cares about CHR? BST to charm anything? BRD to sing songs? CHR has become one of the most useless stats in this game, and that is the ONLY thing Humes are good for.....

Hume doesn't need anything they excel at, they're designed to be in the middle of all other races and they fit in fine.

[Korpg]

I think there is a difference between Hume and everyone else.

Tarus with their MP and higher MND/INT makes better mages than Humes.

Elvaan with their higher HP and higher STR makes better DDs than Humes.

Galkas with their higher HP and higher VIT makes better tanks than Humes.

Mithra with their two bigger assets makes them more desirable than Humes....

What do we have that everyone else has? More "balanced" stats? What good does that do to us? There is not a situation where STR and INT are used at the exact same time. Well, maybe BLU, but thats besides the point!

We Humes are mid-roaders. We don't do as much damage as everyone else, we can't survive better than others, we got othing! My BLM has 8 INT merits and it still is 6 INT lower than a taru with the same merits. Probably the same as an Elvaan WAR if I merited STR instead...

I also have 12 mp merits, what good will that do when my WHM's mp is about the same as a taru PLDs mp??? Almost the same HP also! WTF??!?!?!

[Meyi]

Actually, I think Hume got the short end of the stick there.

I mean, look at the other races. They excel at something, usually 2 things.

Hume? Just CHR....who cares about CHR? BST to charm anything? BRD to sing songs? CHR has become one of the most useless stats in this game, and that is the ONLY thing Humes are good for.....

Actually, Humes are tied with Tarus and Elvaan for highest CHR. Humes have nothing they excel it, and nothing they fail at.

[RAIST]

you guys do realize it's more than just HP coming in to play with how much damage a taru takes vs a galka? It's like 10 more VIT on the base stats as well, plus the gear choices taken. Might want to take another look at the stat differences:

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/i/kinematicf/FFXI/StatCalculator/

I was amuzed about the reference to fell cleave death when sleeps don't come in time. I have a Taru friend that hosts cleaves for us a lot...we never sleep them...Rach just straight tanks them.

[Romanova]

This way everyone doesnt look exactly the same with the same capabilitys,

again, why does that even matter?


each race has its own strong points and weakness's and should be used to the playerbases advantage not frowned upon because people can't bother to gear correctly to survive.


why should we give SE more money for this? you say its $1, but then when you compare it to every other mmo where you can have up to 8-10 for free on the same account, then it seems pretty money hungry. Especially if you were to say level all 5 for particular jobs that's an extra $5 a month as well as mules you might have on the side.

Also, even with abyssea, there are still tons of missions/gear/quests/key items that are still important outside of it. If we only look at stuff that's relevant at 90 (remember some of the best atma come from completing things like dynamis lord) then it still takes a very long time.

[Korpg]

Actually, Humes are tied with Tarus and Elvaan for highest CHR. Humes have nothing they excel it, and nothing they fail at.

Thanks for correcting me.

And also proving my point.

WTF ARE WE GOOD AT????

[Neisan_Quetz]

Humes are good at sucking at everything obviously (over a specialist, but you aren't as bad as they are when it comes to what they suck at, so that's a plus I guess?)

[Coldbrand]

Humes are good at nothing, this was available for you to see right at the character creation screen. Anything you can do, we can do better, we can do anything better than you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No you can't!

[Auredant]

I think there is a difference between Hume and everyone else.

Tarus with their MP and higher MND/INT makes better mages than Humes.

Elvaan with their higher HP and higher STR makes better DDs than Humes.

Galkas with their higher HP and higher VIT makes better tanks than Humes.

Mithra with their two bigger assets makes them more desirable than Humes....

What do we have that everyone else has? More "balanced" stats? What good does that do to us? There is not a situation where STR and INT are used at the exact same time. Well, maybe BLU, but thats besides the point!

We Humes are mid-roaders. We don't do as much damage as everyone else, we can't survive better than others, we got othing! My BLM has 8 INT merits and it still is 6 INT lower than a taru with the same merits. Probably the same as an Elvaan WAR if I merited STR instead...

I also have 12 mp merits, what good will that do when my WHM's mp is about the same as a taru PLDs mp??? Almost the same HP also! WTF??!?!?!

Mithra and their 2 "assets" eh? O.O

[Zatias]

OMG race actually plays a role now? =p

I see what you are saying but I thought the purpose of choosing a race was to specialize in your favorite jobs (i.e. Taru playing as mages will naturally be better as said mage than any other race, and naturally Elvaan will hit the hardest as DD than any other race; notice the "naturally" before you bring gear into this lol) If you like all jobs as many people will say, play as hume, they are average in everything... if you are so concerned about race performance XD

Although, as said already, race shouldn't matter in the least if you have the right gear, buffs and atma setup. It's a matter of personal taste and always has been.

[hideka]

You have over 2k hp without buffs? Or are you comparing galka mnk to taru smn?
lol i have 2k hp as a mithra mnk w/o curor buffs and no relic or obscene hp gear. just those nifty HP merits.

[Nynja]

I think there is a difference between Hume and everyone else.

Tarus with their MP and higher MND/INT makes better mages than Humes.

Elvaan with their higher HP and higher STR makes better DDs than Humes.

Galkas with their higher HP and higher VIT makes better tanks than Humes.

Mithra with their two bigger assets makes them more desirable than Humes....

I've never heard someone bitch and moan so much lol...

But hey, guess what:
Tarus with their low HP and STR and VIT make less desirable DD/tanks than humes
Elvaan with their low INT and mp make them less desirable mages than humes
Galka with their low INT and mp make them even less desirable mages than humes.
Mithra...theyre basically humes+1...same hp mp, humes have slightly higher str+vit+mnd, mithra have much higher dex+agi, and humes have much higher lolchr

In a game like FFXI which promotes multiclass per character, a balanced race like hume wins out. But even then, most of the "advantages" are very minor.

a taru BLM will have 919MP and 89INT
galka BLM will have 492MP and 79INT
elvaan BLM will have 645MP and 75INT

Taru>Galka: First of all, if a taru were chain nuking their full MP pool, they'd probably wind up dead. Secondly, that 10 INT is not going to account for that much discrepancy in damage, considering all the other gear involved. Third, a galka BLM can practically fulltime Uggalepih Pendant.


oh, and your original statement has flaws:
Tarus have the lowest MND stat along mithra

[scaevola]

Humes are good at making you look less like an emotionally stunted manchild when a friend asks what you're playing.

[Coldbrand]

Humes are good at making you look dead inside and boring.
Fixed that for you.

[Korpg]

Fixed that for you.

At least we send your kind into the mines.

[Meyi]

Thanks for correcting me.

And also proving my point.

WTF ARE WE GOOD AT????

You're good at not failing at any job.

Edit: Also, Taru have the worst MND in the game. Humes have much more MND than Taru. I believe you were looking at Elvaan as having higher MND than Humes.

[Korpg]

Actually, the point of most of my posts here is to show people that it really doesn't matter about racial differences.

Humes are great at nothing. But we don't suck at anything either.
Galkas are great at mining. Anything else, they suck at.
Mithras are great Dancers. Anything else, they suck at.
Tarus are great footballs. Anything else, they suck at.
Elvaan are great............screw it, they suck at everything.

Does a well geared Taru BLM outnuke me when I'm BLM? Probably. But there are too few out there to boast the damage output I put out on a daily basis.
Does a well geared Elvaan WAR outdamage me when I'm WAR? Most likely, but again, too few out there to boast the damage.

It all comes down to how you gear the character, not just how your character has certain stats going their way.

[Malacite]

Pro Tip: Merit HP 12/12 and build a decent PDT/MDT set.

[Fearforever]

Pro Tip: Merit HP 12/12 and build a decent PDT/MDT set.

Already have 12/12 HP merits, still have under 1150 HP on a NIN, and oh thank you... i hope it works for EVERY single job i have >.> and i'll be needing more inv space to carry it all around. /sarcasm

[Return1]

I'm sorry, but who dies in abyssea when serious? Usng a Taru to tank is no different than using a galka. They don't die unless the WHM went afk to play with cats o something.

Also, outside of abyssea, Taru tanks could have the advantage of a lower Earthen Armor/Scherzo proc number.


People keep complaining about abyssea as if it will matter after 9 more levels of old content revival and new events.

[Bubeeky]

I have never had an issue with hp...I like pokin' fun at my HP as a taru, but in spite of my HP I'm better at survival overall than a lot of other ppl that have more hp....the actual number of your HP means so much less than your skill :)

[Bumbeen]

I have never had an issue with hp...I like pokin' fun at my HP as a taru, but in spite of my HP I'm better at survival overall than a lot of other ppl that have more hp....the actual number of your HP means so much less than your skill :)

You've never had a situation where you would have lived had you had more HP?

[RAIST]

You've never had a situation where you would have lived had you had more HP?

well.. duh... anyone would survive longer if they had the hp.

The point is more that skill/knowledge of gameplay/gear/merit/food/atma/etc. allows you to mitigate a large portion of it.

[Bumbeen]

well.. duh... anyone would survive longer if they had the hp.

The point is more that skill/knowledge of gameplay/gear/merit/food/atma/etc. allows you to mitigate a large portion of it.
And my point is that max HP still matters no matter your skill/gear/merit/food/atma

[Korpg]

And my point is that max HP still matters no matter your skill/gear/merit/food/atma

But what's the point in having 5k HP when you never go below 3k HP when tanking?

[Nynja]

If you're getting nuked for 1600 dmg and you only have 1300 hp...because your whm is too lazy to keep shell up, thats not your racial HP's fault. Shell5 (Unmerited I believe) should cut 1600 down to 1200, equipping basic DT- gear like Twilight Torque should drop that down an extra 60 dmg (not sure if DT comes before or after MDB from shell).

And if somethings going to 1shot you, its going to 1shot you...deal with it lol.


and wtf at the guy asking for everyone to have 5k hp to survive everything. Seriously? Seriously....why not give everyone a permanent blink of death trait or whatever, that modifies anything that reduces your HP past 0, leaves you with 1 hp!

[Olor]

Play XIV. Choose your stats. For now...

[Bumbeen]

But what's the point in having 5k HP when you never go below 3k HP when tanking?

I was saying that just because skill matters more than how much HP you have, does not mean that your HP is not significant.

People say "as taru you have to use skill and gear to make up for the lower hp". But you can just as easily use the same skill and gear on a galka which means you aren't making up for anything, it's still a disadvantage that cannot be overcome via skill, gear, merits, atma, etc.

[RAIST]

Part of that knowledge/skill is knowing your limitations and developing a better strategy. In other words, if a target is capable of one-shotting you, let someone else take the beating. My poor Galka BST friend and his pets are forever getting smacked around while my squishy mage stays at the edge of casting range.

[Korpg]

I was saying that just because skill matters more than how much HP you have, does not mean that your HP is not significant.

People say "as taru you have to use skill and gear to make up for the lower hp". But you can just as easily use the same skill and gear on a galka which means you aren't making up for anything, it's still a disadvantage that cannot be overcome via skill, gear, merits, atma, etc.

And Galkas are in a disadvantage for being mages.

What's your point?

This "unbalanced racial traits" complaint is a cry for uniformity. Do we really want to all be the same, or do we want something different? Next thing is, the OP is going to complain that WARs and MNKs do a lot more damage than SAMs and DRKs, so SE better fix this "unbalanced job traits."

What is the point in having 20 different jobs when there are 4 different types of "jobs" a player can be: Physical damage dealer, Magical damage dealer, tank, and healer. Pet jobs are either physical damage dealers (DRG, BST, some PUPs, some SMNs) or magical damage dealers (some PUPs, some SMN), so they don't count as a separate "job."

Besides, when do you really see a Taru NIN get oneshotted from a spell or ability that doesn't also oneshot a Galka NIN? Same for PLD Tarus and Galkas.

[Bumbeen]

And Galkas are in a disadvantage for being mages.

What's your point?


But what's the point in having 5k HP when you never go below 3k HP when tanking?

My point was that you appeared to have missed the point of my post. I wasn't saying people should have 5k HP. I was saying that skill/gear/merits cannot make up for the HP discrepancies between the races in FFXI. I was not addressing you in my earlier post, just the idea that "skill/merit/atma is more important so taru hp doesn't matter" is correct, which it isn't. And the reason is because you can be galka and have the same skill/merit/atma that a taru has, so the problem still exists.

and for the record I think it should remain as is. If you want to play a tank class level an elv or a galka.

[scaevola]

Besides, when do you really see a Taru NIN get oneshotted from a spell or ability that doesn't also oneshot a Galka NIN? Same for PLD Tarus and Galkas.

One-shotting is the most extreme example of a larger problem. The most important aspect of both tanking and dealing damage is staying alive. Staying alive is binary; you live or you die. At any given time, there will be situations that bring you closer to dying. Usually, this will not be a single ability but rather a combination of mechanics designed specifically to kill you if not managed properly. The more health you have, the more leeway you and your partners get in navigating these combinations. If there is any situation in which, all things player-side being equal, a Galka would have an easier time living than a Taru, there is no comparison between the two. Let's examine a few of these potential situations.

-Caturae TP move/-aga combo
-holding Shinryu for procs
-any NM with gimmick spikes
-NMs with noteworthy Max HP Down mechanics like Bukhis or Briareus
-NMs with noteworthy (either especially strong or undispellable) DoT mechanics like Kukulkan
-NMs with severely jacked-up signature TP moves (Indrik, Glavoid (though in this case specifically a Taru NIN could safely count on Miga to beat Disgorge), maybe even Itzpapalotl)
-other NMs with high-level -agas that are either especially powerful or frequent (Fuath); I've seen Taru NIN/WARs get one-shot by -agas from Durinn/Dvalinn as the WHM was busy Erasing everything but MDef Down after Cackle, which would assuredly not kill a Galka NIN/WAR.

This doesn't even get out of Abyssea, when evidentally every Voidwatch NM above tier 1 has multiple shadow-stripping AoEs that will not-uncommonly kill Taru melee, but don't do enough damage to Galka to even force them to adjust their play (and subsequently compromise tanking/damage output) with a competent healer.

We could quite easily envision multiple situations in which Galka health saves the day.



EDIT: Oh, and also, to reiterate my first post, a big reason why this is a problem is that Galka are no longer at a significant disadvantage when playing mages, because the massive amounts of Refresh currently available coupled with Convert for all jobs mean Max MP, while not totally insignificant, is not nearly as relevant as Max HP.

[Korpg]

I could also quite easily envision multiple situations in which it doesn't matter if your max HP has 300 more than another tank, it all determines on the skill of both the tank AND the healer.

Usually, in my group, a taru NIN tanks. Does she die alot more than the other tank (hume NIN)? No, not really. Would an extra 300 hp helped save her? Depends if I'm the healer. And by how much overkill did the mob do to her. Or how fast the damage came. Or many other variables.

Which leads to my point. In most situations, 300 hp is not going to make a whole lot of difference between tank survival and tank defeat.

[scaevola]

I could also quite easily envision multiple situations in which it doesn't matter if your max HP has 300 more than another tank, it all determines on the skill of both the tank AND the healer.

1) Yes, I too can imagine many situations where 300 Max HP doesn't matter. Like....farming lights. Or perhaps killing Tier 1 NMs for seals! Unless it's something like Dvalinn or Blazing Eruca, that's, you know, actually capable of killing anyone ever.

2) again with the skill argument. That super skilled Stephen Hawking Taru NIN would be better off as a Galka, period. I mean, is your point that Taru NINs are more skilled than Galka NINs because Galka NINs don't need to be? That would be kind of a weird thing to say!

3) even if you were right, does it necessarily follow that Galka HP isn't a gamebreaking advantage just because it isn't necessarily gamebreaking in every single situation imaginable? I mean, I'd think it would be enough to say it makes a difference rather often!


Usually, in my group, a taru NIN tanks. Does she die alot more than the other tank (hume NIN)? No, not really. Would an extra 300 hp helped save her? Depends if I'm the healer. And by how much overkill did the mob do to her. Or how fast the damage came. Or many other variables.

Tell you what. You send me parses of all the times your Taru NIN has ever been killed, I'll determine how many of those were from hits of 300 or less, and you can tell me about how that doesn't matter.


Which leads to my point. In most situations, 300 hp is not going to make a whole lot of difference between tank survival and tank defeat.

It will make a difference in enough situations to be worth addressing.

It is a balance issue that affects the whole game. It was less of an issue when healers could conceivably run out of MP or pull aggro, but the current state of the game means that any mechanic that a Galka tank can't just shrug off means almost certain death for a Taru. I never cease to be amazed at the vigor with which people decry how easy this game is but fail to even consider what specific mechanics lead it to be that easy.

[Korpg]

1) Of course its the skill argument. A bad tank is going to die if they don't keep shadows up (or in case of PLDs, keep curing themselves, although who uses a PLD anyway?). A bad healer is going to run out of mp before the mob is dead, therefor going to wipe when the mob dies, but only if a bad tank keeps getting hit. A great tank can keep from getting hit most of the time without worry about losing hate (i.e. doing damage) or being a mp sponge (i.e. needing cure 5 all the time).

2) I guess I'm lucky. My WHM and NIN friends are very good, and they both take turns being WHM and NIN with each other. One is a taru, the other, hume. By your logic, the WHM must always be a taru and the hume must always be the NIN. I guess your WHM and tank isn't in the same caliber as my friends, so that might be true for yours.

3) I wish I could send you parses, but I don't take any. I don't need to take any because they rarely die, and the times they do is usually my fault (I take the blame for anything that goes wrong, including ruby kills).

4) What situations does 300 max hp make a difference between? If you say the difference between surviving a -ga, then why doesn't the tank have Shellra V on? Any "one-shot" TP moves can be taken care of by Migawhatever, and any melee hits that kills the tank is because of lack of cures. Those don't count because the tank didn't go from 100% HP to 0% HP in one shot.

Edit:
5) Again, there are ways around those "one-shot" TP moves. Migawhatever is a prime example. Also, if the healer gets aggro from an outside source, why are they fighting there anyway? It all leads to skill! Skill for the tank and healer isn't about how to keep shadows up or do a lot of damage or when to cure, it also has to do with placement of the mob, where to stand, and when to turn your back.

[scaevola]

1) Of course its the skill argument. A bad tank is going to die if they don't keep shadows up (or in case of PLDs, keep curing themselves, although who uses a PLD anyway?). A bad healer is going to run out of mp before the mob is dead, therefor going to wipe when the mob dies, but only if a bad tank keeps getting hit. A great tank can keep from getting hit most of the time without worry about losing hate (i.e. doing damage) or being a mp sponge (i.e. needing cure 5 all the time).

All. Taru. NINs. Regardless. Of. Skill. Would. Be. Better. Off. As. Galka. Refute this.


2) I guess I'm lucky. My WHM and NIN friends are very good, and they both take turns being WHM and NIN with each other. One is a taru, the other, hume. By your logic, the WHM must always be a taru and the hume must always be the NIN. I guess your WHM and tank isn't in the same caliber as my friends, so that might be true for yours.

No, it doesn't matter, because the game is easy. You might have a better time understanding what I'm saying if you stopped to consider why!



4) What situations does 300 max hp make a difference between? If you say the difference between surviving a -ga, then why doesn't the tank have Shellra V on?

For the, what, 5th time? If WHM weren't overpowered, the HP discrepancy would be less of an issue.



Any "one-shot" TP moves can be taken care of by Migawhatever,

one-minute cooldown


and any melee hits that kills the tank is because of lack of cures. Those don't count because the tank didn't go from 100% HP to 0% HP in one shot.

You are being deliberately obtuse. Why would it matter if it specifically comes from one hit or not? Is it not okay if, for the purposes of this dicussion, we could consider "one-shot" to be shorthand for "confluence of abilities that lead to the character's death in a short time before any healer can react"?



Again, there are ways around those "one-shot" TP moves. Migawhatever is a prime example. Also, if the healer gets aggro from an outside source, why are they fighting there anyway? It all leads to skill! Skill for the tank and healer isn't about how to keep shadows up or do a lot of damage or when to cure, it also has to do with placement of the mob, where to stand, and when to turn your back.
Or you could have a level 1 PUP/WHM with the Speed Shoes Kupower just kite everything to death, amirite?

Taru tanks have it harder than Galka. This matters, because for Tarus to be playable as tanks at all, incoming damage needs to be balanced around their pitiful HP, both regular/blinkable damage and high-damage hits that are potentially avoidable. Doing so means these mechanics become completely trivial for Galka and probably Elvaans as well. Can you honestly not see how that might contribute to how easy this game's become?

EDIT: I should give a bit more context on my position; I play a Hume and spend most of my time soloing stuff on DNC/NIN (Fuath's IMO probably my hardest solo kill to date, but I'm not sure how others would gauge that vs. the rest of what I've done). This has kind of given me perspective about both ends of the HP scale; there have been so, so, so many times I've either lived by a few hundred health until I can get my next Waltz off, or died by a few hundred. There is absolutely no question in my mind I'd die more often than I do if I were a Taru and live more often if I were a Galka; maybe not TOO much more often, but enough to gladly say I'd be the first in the door for a paid race change.

[Miiyo]

dat mod and call it a day or cut out a picture of a galka, cut out the head and tape it to your screen.

[Korpg]

All. Taru. NINs. Regardless. Of. Skill. Would. Be. Better. Off. As. Galka. Refute this.



No, it doesn't matter, because the game is easy. You might have a better time understanding what I'm saying if you stopped to consider why!



For the, what, 5th time? If WHM weren't overpowered, the HP discrepancy would be less of an issue.




one-minute cooldown



You are being deliberately obtuse. Why would it matter if it specifically comes from one hit or not? Is it not okay if, for the purposes of this dicussion, we could consider "one-shot" to be shorthand for "confluence of abilities that lead to the character's death in a short time before any healer can react"?



Or you could have a level 1 PUP/WHM with the Speed Shoes Kupower just kite everything to death, amirite?

Taru tanks have it harder than Galka. This matters, because for Tarus to be playable as tanks at all, incoming damage needs to be balanced around their pitiful HP, both regular/blinkable damage and high-damage hits that are potentially avoidable. Doing so means these mechanics become completely trivial for Galka and probably Elvaans as well. Can you honestly not see how that might contribute to how easy this game's become?

EDIT: I should give a bit more context on my position; I play a Hume and spend most of my time soloing stuff on DNC/NIN (Fuath's IMO probably my hardest solo kill to date, but I'm not sure how others would gauge that vs. the rest of what I've done). This has kind of given me perspective about both ends of the HP scale; there have been so, so, so many times I've either lived by a few hundred health until I can get my next Waltz off, or died by a few hundred. There is absolutely no question in my mind I'd die more often than I do if I were a Taru and live more often if I were a Galka; maybe not TOO much more often, but enough to gladly say I'd be the first in the door for a paid race change.

So, basically you are saying that we should either eliminate racial differences or have a race change service to suit different roles at different times?

In other words, become like WoW?

I know that people have been comparing this to WoW, but I think this game still has some distinct features that separate this game from the others, and you want to take that away.

Why not ask for all races to have the exact same stats regardless of job. Lets all have STR/DEX/AGI/VIT/INT/MND/CHR at 100 and HP/MP at 1000. That shows some real originally!

But thats besides the point. Skill does have an impact on doing your job. If you suck as a DD, you won't do that much damage. Most tarus out there can't nuke harder than me, although they have a lot more MP than me. Does that make them better mages? Probably not, can they nuke more than me? Yeah, but do they grasp the situation and can they adapt when needed? AKA can they stop nuking when the mob is whacking on them and hit Enmity Douse instead?

Besides, you are talking about a group setting. This game isn't just for the soloist, you have to rely on people too for some content.

Tarus and Galkas are great for cosmetic appeal, but at the end of the day its the skill of the player that determines how strong the group is.

Edit: Oh yeah, and my Taru friend would not be a Galka if you paid her 100 bucks to change. She wouldn't play as a Galka tank, and I seriously doubt she would play as her Hume hubby either. Would she be a better tank as a Galka NIN? No, because she would be unhappy and out of her style of play if she played a Galka. Race is nothing more than cosmetic appeal for players, and have some psychological effect on style of play.

[RAIST]

again.. your strategy goes a long way to mitigating the racial differences. Reducing the mobs TP gain, reducing critical damage, stunning, WHM curing to grant SS, or something simple as keeping a regen going with carbuncle can make a big difference in the long run. The little things done by the GROUP have a major affect on the outcome. If someone is not up to par, it can mean disaster.

As for solo....have to pick your targets and your setup more carefully. I've seen Berstuk eat a galka that got caught off-guard by waterja and couldn't stun it in time. I've seen a Taru just flat out rape that NM. It's more about knowing your target and being prepared for what it is capable of and having a plan in place to manage it.

[Korpg]

again.. your strategy goes a long way to mitigating the racial differences. Reducing the mobs TP gain, reducing critical damage, stunning, WHM curing to grant SS, or something simple as keeping a regen going with carbuncle can make a big difference in the long run. The little things done by the GROUP have a major affect on the outcome. If someone is not up to par, it can mean disaster.

As for solo....have to pick your targets and your setup more carefully. I've seen Berstuk eat a galka that got caught off-guard by waterja and couldn't stun it in time. I've seen a Taru just flat out rape that NM. It's more about knowing your target and being prepared for what it is capable of and having a plan in place to manage it.

But race has nothing to do with either of those scenarios. Did the Taru win because they had more MP? Or did the Galka lose because they have less INT to "absorb" some of the damage?

Yes, there are stat differences between races, but the differences does not make or break a success. Odds are, if a Taru DNC dies to a NM by a margin of 10 damage overkill, a Galka DNC will die from the same NM in a few short seconds, assuming the same skill level between players. One more hit would be gained and lost from both situations, and in the grand scheme of things, one hit doesn't mean jack. Its like getting pee'd off for closing your umbrella from a rainstorm finally letting up, just to have a bird take a dump on your head. If you kept your umbrella on for one more second, that crap would have been on your umbrella, but you still have to clean it off regardless.

[RAIST]

But race has nothing to do with either of those scenarios. Did the Taru win because they had more MP? Or did the Galka lose because they have less INT to "absorb" some of the damage?

that is the point.. they were both NIN's, not mages. See a lot of NIN soloing that thing. I did it for some of my NIN seals (Hume, NIN/DNC in lol gears no less) and not once was I ever in danger of dying from it as I kept my steps up to stun the AOE's. HP does not matter so much if you are prepared to prevent what would be taking that HP away, or replace it when it is taken.

[Bumbeen]

I have no idea why you guys keep talking about skill since you have the same skill whether you are galka or taru.

[Korpg]

I have no idea why you guys keep talking about skill since you have the same skill whether you are galka or taru.

Skill as a player, not skill as in weapon skills or skillups.

It is possible to have the same 450 skill on Summoning Magic as a Galka or Taru, knowing what to do as a SMN are two different things with two different players.

[Hexacore]

it may be instructive to look at WoW raiding to see what Elitist Jerks and Tankspot have to say...the only thing that matters on the tank (or anyone taking damage for that matter) is Max HP...and to argue that the split between Galka HP and Taru HP doesn't matter is insane.

Pretty much.

If you want to be an elite tank, probably re-roll Galka.

For everyone else who plays just to enjoy the game or accomplish goals for us mere mortals, any race will do really.

[DebbieGibson]

Skill as a player, not skill as in weapon skills or skillups.

It is possible to have the same 450 skill on Summoning Magic as a Galka or Taru, knowing what to do as a SMN are two different things with two different players.

Did you really think he was talking about combat/magic skills?