Puppetmaster's Asuran Fists <Where?>

[Mizuharu]

Ever since the update last year that increased Puppetmaster's combat rating up frmo 225 cap (@Lv.75) to 256(@Lv.75), many had hoped that we'd be able to access Asuran Fists. Now, I know Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite do more damage than Asuran Fists anyway, and I'm most likely blowing hot air posting this, but here are a few arguments for why we should be allowed to quest for this Weapon Skill...

1) We're the only other job that actually mains Hand-to-Hand in this game.
2) The only reason we originally could not obtain this Weapon Skill was because PUPs could not reach the skill level to open quest without merits/gear. (Asuran Fists quest is 250 Hand-to-Hand. Puppetmaster's new cap at 75 is 256.)
3) Every job besides PUP gets access to at least one WSNM Weapon Skill if not multiple.
---a) Empyreal Arrow - RNG
---b) Decimation - WAR BST DRK RNG
---c) Black Halo - PLD WHM BLU WAR MNK BLM SMN SCH
---d) Evisceration - THF COR RDM DNC WAR RNG BRD BST NIN
---e) Steel Cyclone - WAR DRK
---f) Tachi: Kasha - SAM
---g) Ground Strike - DRK WAR PLD
---h) Asuran Fists - MNK
---i) Detonator - RNG COR
---j) Impulse Drive - DRG SAM WAR
---k) Spiral Hell - DRK WAR BST
---l) Retribution - PLD WAR MNK SMN BLM WHM BRD SCH
---m) Savage Blade - WAR RDM BLU PLD COR DRK

So I ask again; why isn't PUP allowed to obtain Asuran Fists?

(Arguments thus far)

1) Was originally MNK only, should stay MNK only. (But Dancing Edge/Shark Bite use to be THF only and then DNC was added on. "But those aren't WSNM WSs" Fine. Detonator. Originally RNG only, COR was added on due to them getting the combat skill requirement. Speaking of COR, they were added to Savage Blade and Evisceration also. I realize they reached those skill levels originally when the job was first released, but the 225 on PUP was a joke. (Which is why it was raised last year, no?))

2) PUP doesn't need it because they have Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite. (BST mains Axes and rarely, if ever, use scythe and daggers. They don't "need" Sprial Hell nor Evisceration; but they still get them. COR's main damage is from marksmenship. They don't need Savage Blade/Evisceration. MNK mains Hand-to-Hand. Why do they need Staff/Club WSs? Again; because the Dev team gave them the combat rating. Thus, because they got the combat skill without merits/gear before or at level 75, they were allowed to partake in the WSNM quest. And, as I said before, Puppetmaster's Hand-to-hand skill cap is now 256. Asuran Fists quest is 250.)

3) The time spent adding PUP onto the weapons could be used to fix the Automaton AI. (You think that adding Puppetmaster onto one weapon would take longer than rewriting an AI program? You think it'd take that much effort that they'd say "well, that's all they'll get for a while. Let's save the AI program for next year." It's been how long since WHM/BLM frames have been out? And they still havn't done anything about -nas before Cures and high thresholds for Aspir/Drain. The AI works for solo play. They meant PUP to be a solo job that can still DD in party formats (like BST.))

4) If they wanted us to have it, they'd have done it when we received the combat update. (True. But there's so many things that certain jobs should have gotten, and are now getting (Yonin/Innin on seperate timers. Longer duration on Last Resort. Just to name a few.) I am hoping to get a Dev to notice this thread and at least say yay or nay.)

5) Just make Stringing Pummel a blue proc! (Why should this be the only Mythic WS to proc? None of the others proc because the Dev team know that WSNM WSs are easier to get than Nyzul WSs; compare a set 300 points to a weapon that needs 250~16,000.)

6) Puppetmaster can't wear the type of weapon the trial weapon is for Asuran Fists. (DNC can't use the type of weapon for Evisceration. RDM and COR can't use the type of weapon for Savage Blade.)

7) There's only a one in three chance that, during blunt hours, the WS is Hand-to-Hand. And then a one in five chance it's Asuran Fists. (True, true. But, like people have said, procing !! is such a small part of the game. And, honestly, I admit to originally writing this thread for blue procing on PUP. But now it's just for equaility... To get what every other job has;access to their main weapon's WSNM.)

8) Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better. (While this is true, if you met a MNK that didn't have Asuran Fists, most of you would insist on laughing at them. If you met any job that doesn't have the WSNM for their main weapon (save maybe for a mage), you'd tell your linkshell all about it and everyone would have a good laugh. Atm, PUP is expected to not have it because they don't have access to it. Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better damage for PUP, yes. But Ascetic's Fury/Victory Smite is better for MNK with damage.)

9) It'd ruin the lore behind the quest. (Honestly, the lore behind quests/NPCs is ignored when needed. The PLD starter NPC? He also plays a role in the DRG quest. And teaches Impulse Drive. A DRG/WAR/SAM WS. Why isn't PLD included on it? (Because of low combat ranking in polearm.) Or, and this time it isn't some minor quest thing, what about Aegis? The NPC in the past that weilds it is Cerane I Virgaut, where as the NPC you see during the CS is Perseus. Hell, the original owner of Annihilator was Elivira, but then the CS shows Elrica (might be related in some way since both are humes, but...) You look up any other relic weapon wielded by an Allied Army NPC, and they're the NPC for the CS.

And, I can't believe I almost forgot about this, what about Gungnir? It is the javelin wielded by Odin, and yet Odin is seen wielding a completely different polearm, which he calls Gungnir. (In the Dev Team's defense though, they did make the relic weapons before they planned on making Odin a monster. And while it is not called Gungnir directly, they are names the polearm was also known by.)

All in all, if they need to make a loophole around lore, they can.)

[Taruzard]

I have to agree with this, if only for blue brocs. Perhaps the devs haven't realised PUP can't use it yet. Then again perhaps the devs haven't realised that until high levels (and even after we're still restricted to certain pieces) PUP is stuck with useless (beyond using mage frame to have less chance of overloading) mage gear. Hmm. XD

[Dfoley]

Outside of abyssea:
SP is better then every other (non-VS) ws for h2h, so I dont see a need nor desire for an 8 hit ws that cant crit, da, or TA.

Blue triggering is such a tiny part of the game that its completly irrelevant to the other 95% of situations where a pup might be WSing.

Monks get pissy enough when you remind them that we are beating their DD when you count our pet, I fail to see a need to rub it in further.

[Dimi]

Outside of abyssea:
SP is better then every other (non-VS) ws for h2h, so I dont see a need nor desire for an 8 hit ws that cant crit, da, or TA.

Blue triggering is such a tiny part of the game that its completly irrelevant to the other 95% of situations where a pup might be WSing.

Monks get pissy enough when you remind them that we are beating their DD when you count our pet, I fail to see a need to rub it in further.

Blue triggering might be a tiny part of the game for your style of play, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone, or that the OP doesn't bring up a valid point, with every job excluding pup having access to a WSNM WS. Don't be so dismissive! :)

[Ahtos]

PUP don´t need a crappy WS just for blue !!. Let SP trigger blue !! too and the problem (?) is solved.
If PUP ever get access to AF to trigger blue !! than that doesn´t mean ppl will invite a PUP just for that. A MNK still beats a PUP cuz they can use all 3 blunt weapons and have access to almost all (blunt) blue trigger ws.

[Vazerus]

I'd like the option just because as was mentioned, every other job does have a wsnm of some sort, while pup does not.

[Mizuharu]

This is more so for PUP equality than stagger now!

[Thango]

Because PUP don't need WSNM, SP and VS is enough. About blue !!... I agree with Ahtos.

[Yoky]

Seriously Pup doesnt need AF. I dont want another blue proc or need another blue proc. Plus I really dont want SP to be a blue proc cause all I would hear is "Never do that again" great...just want i need to be bored in Abyssea...I really dont want my best weaponskill taken away cause it proc'd blue.

I think what h2h weapons really need is an elemental WS that can get amber light/red !!. Other then that, leave the weapon skills alone.

[Lazus]

I think pup need some red !! triggers to begin with, even with them being able to use and skill up daggers and clubs they stil don't learn the red procs for them

[Anza]

I think pup need some red !! triggers to begin with, even with them being able to use and skill up daggers and clubs they stil don't learn the red procs for them

PUP does have access to dagger/club red procs, just requires an appropriate subjob. /NIN or /DNC get both Dagger red procs (Cyclone and Energy Drain), /WAR gets Seraph Strike. So if you need to help out on procs, bring an appropriate subjob.

Also, you do get Aeolian Edge on PUP, so that's what I end up using if I need Amber light for some reason and I'm on PUP. You can get pretty nice augmented Yataghans from Dominion Notes in Grauberg.

[Jackastheripper]

Agreed! PUP needs what everyone else gets. I don't have SP because it's hard to find people to do Nyzul anymore. Let us have something besides Howling Fists.

[Gropitou]

While you're at it, why not question why Destroyers (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Destroyers Destroyers) can be used by all these jobs (WAR / MNK / RDM / THF / PLD / DRK / BST / RNG / DNC) but NOT PUP?

[Alhanelem]

PUP doesn't need asuran fists. Pummel and Smite are better on paper.

MNK can keep Asuran. I don't want it.


While you're at it, why not question why Destroyers (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Destroyers%20Destroyers) can be used by all these jobs (WAR / MNK / RDM / THF / PLD / DRK / BST / RNG / DNC) but NOT PUP? Because people still use destroyers. Oh wait, they're garbage now.

[Mizuharu]

PUP doesn't need asuran fists. Pummel and Smite are better on paper.

MNK can keep Asuran. I don't want it.


MNKs have A Fury and Smite. They don't need Asuran Fists either. But they still get the option of having it because they're H2H users... We're H2H users and don't even get this WSNM Trial let alone any other ones.

[Alhanelem]

MNKs have A Fury and Smite. They don't need Asuran Fists either. But they still get the option of having it because they're H2H users... We're H2H users and don't even get this WSNM Trial let alone any other ones.
Again, we don't need it. So what's the point in adding it?

Asuran Fists has always been a MNK thing, there's no reason to give it to anyone else, especially if they don't need it. It's just being bitter about being a have-not.

In a metagame where your usefulness is judged almost solely by the number of triggers you have, adding Asuran Fists does basically nothing for PUP. PUP, and also SMN and a few other jobs, will always be scorned in abyssea because they don't have as many triggers.

[Mizuharu]

Again, we don't need it. So what's the point in adding it?

Asuran Fists has always been a MNK thing, there's no reason to give it to anyone else, especially if they don't need it. It's just being bitter about being a have-not.

In a metagame where your usefulness is judged almost solely by the number of triggers you have, adding Asuran Fists does basically nothing for PUP. PUP, and also SMN and a few other jobs, will always be scorned in abyssea because they don't have as many triggers.

Well then, let me ask you this. If I'm being bitter about PUP not getting Asuran Fists, then what about all the other recent additions to the game? PLD getting Phalanx; a formerly RDM exclusive spell. SCH getting Stoneskin/Blink/Spikes natively. SAMs getting this new "Chainbound" effect this monday. (They already have plenty of ways to self skillchain. Why add another?) Aren't all of these brought about by players "being bitter about being a have-not"?

People say it'd be a waste, but MNKs rarely use this WS unless it's for staggering now a days. For PUPs it'd be the same way. As for that we won't use this, let me ask this also...

How often do you see a COR using Savage Blade? Or a RNG using Decimation/Evisceration?

[Alhanelem]

but MNKs rarely use this WS unless it's for staggering now a days. For PUPs it'd be the same way.Which is why it would be a waste. PUP already has a WS that is job specific and is practically named after the job. I see nothing wrong with MNK having asuran exclusively.

Every job that couldn't reach the required skill by 75 for any quested WS can reach it now. Should we add all of those jobs to every quest WS? I'm sure the people who already know and actually use those WS wouldn't like that.

[Mizuharu]

Every job that couldn't reach the required skill by 75 for any quested WS can reach it now. Should we add all of those jobs to every quest WS? I'm sure the people who already know and actually use those WS wouldn't like that.

After they bumped PUP's Hand-to-Hand skill up from C- to B- while the cap was still 75, they met the required skill level for Asurun Fists. Your argument is invalid on that...

[Ahtos]

MNK can´t use the club ws Hexa Strike cuz its a WHM only ws. It's the same story.
PUP can´t use knuckles type weapons, means they can´t even use the trial weapon.
Like i already said MNK still beat PUP even if PUP had this crappy ws. MNK can use 14/15 blunt WS with any SJ, PUP 7/15 w/o a certain SJ, well u get the math i hope.
Why should ppl invite 2 or 3 more ppl just to cover all blunt ws if one job can do 93% of all ws ?

[Alhanelem]

After they bumped PUP's Hand-to-Hand skill up from C- to B- while the cap was still 75, they met the required skill level for Asurun Fists. Your argument is invalid on that...
Uh, no, that doesn't invalidate my argument. But whatever...

I doln't know why you all feel so entitled to this, nor do I know why you want it so bad. You've acknowledged that you probably wouldn't use it much/ever, so why are you begging for it? Asuran fists, by its very name, is built for monks. Why would anyone else learn it?

I was among the first max level PUPs on my server after it came out. I know all too well what it was like in the early days. That doesn't mean I give two farts about Asuran now. They can honestly keep it. I'll stick to Victory Smite.

[Mizuharu]

MNK can´t use the club ws Hexa Strike cuz its a WHM only ws. It's the same story.
PUP can´t use knuckles type weapons, means they can´t even use the trial weapon.
Like i already said MNK still beat PUP even if PUP had this crappy ws. MNK can use 14/15 blunt WS with any SJ, PUP 7/15 w/o a certain SJ, well u get the math i hope.
Why should ppl invite 2 or 3 more ppl just to cover all blunt ws if one job can do 93% of all ws ?

Furor Cesti (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18781/furor-cesti)
Scogan's Knuckles (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18741/scogans-knuckles)
Heofon Knuckles (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18776/heofon-knuckles)

PUP can clearly wear certain Knuckles... I'm sure it wouldn't break too many backs to have Square-Enix add PUP onto Knuckles of Trials.

Quick little question before I head off to bed... Why is everyone so against this? Besides the "lolwhytakeapupovermnk?" ordel. Does no one on this forum solo on PUP against NMs? Has no PUP on here ever thought "Jeez, too bad I can't blue stagger this NM even though it's Hand-to-Hand because I don't have Asuran Fists..." or, before I mentioned it, has any PUP ever thought about how every job besides PUP has a WSNM WS? DNC got Evisceration though it's described as a front-line healer using TP instead of MP to cure their allies. And has anyone thought about the new players to the game that can't get to Nyzul Isle due to lack of interest from the senior players?

The only reason, as someone mentioned before, that Puppetmaster did not gain access to the Asuran Fists trial was because, prior to the combat skill increase, their Hand-to-Hand combat skill rating was 225 capped at 75. After the cap was raised, they gained 31 skill levels (256). Asuran Fists quest is at 250.


Uh, no, that doesn't invalidate my argument. But whatever...
You're right, sorry. What I meant to say is that your argument was flawed.


I doln't know why you all feel so entitled to this, nor do I know why you want it so bad. You've acknowledged that you probably wouldn't use it much/ever, so why are you begging for it? Asuran fists, by its very name, is built for monks. Why would anyone else learn it?

So, in your words, because this weapon skill is centered around one job, it's impossible to involve other jobs for it. Say, isn't Decimation from Brutus, the Ex-Beastmaster that now raises Chocobos in Upper Jeuno? Why does WAR get it? The only thing they share with BSTs is that they can use Axes too. Or, for that matter, Retribution. Shantotto's a BLM. So, since the starter NPC is a BLM, shouldn't it be BLM exclusive? Or mage exclusive at the most.

The answer is simple; they meet the required skill level for the skill by level 75. And so does Puppetmaster ever since the combat rating update.


I was among the first max level PUPs on my server after it came out. I know all too well what it was like in the early days. That doesn't mean I give two farts about Asuran now. They can honestly keep it. I'll stick to Victory Smite.

Did you know there's a lack of interest in Nyzul Isle? And some puppetmasters aren't able to get a group together for making Empy relic/WOE Hand-to-Hand for Victory Smite. While I myself might not use this weapon skill because I have Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, other Puppetmasters could use it until they obtain Stringing Pummel and/or Victory Smite rather than spamming Howling Fists.

[Ahtos]

Quick little question before I head off to bed... Why is everyone so against this? Besides the "lolwhytakeapupovermnk?" ordel. Does no one on this forum solo on PUP against NMs?
You still don´t get the point ^^ why should i solo with my PUP if i can do only 7 (well 8 with AF) blunt WS ? You just waist time if its the ws you can´t use and one more WS doesn´t mean i can proc the !! everytime. It's a 33% chance for H2H trigger and then a 20% chance for AF, or a 6% chance for AF during blunt time..... after all its not worth to waist the dev's time.


Has no PUP on here ever thought "Jeez, too bad I can't blue stagger this NM even though it's Hand-to-Hand because I don't have Asuran Fists..."
Same thing again, MNK can´t do blue !! cuz its Hexa Strike....


or, before I mentioned it, has any PUP ever thought about how every job besides PUP has a WSNM WS? DNC got Evisceration though it's described as a front-line healer using TP instead of MP to cure their allies.
I don´t care if i got a quested ws or not, PUP got SP so why should i want AF ? As WS for DMG ? no thanks. Just for a friggn possible blue !! ? even more no thanks.
Thats means DNC shouldn´t get any WS cuz its a front-line healer ? DNC can use WS and heal the pt, that isn´t so hard.


And has anyone thought about the new players to the game that can't get to Nyzul Isle due to lack of interest from the senior players?
If some ppl can´t even get 2 friends and do nyzul with them, then those ppl should think about it what they doing wrong ^^

[Mizuharu]

You still don´t get the point ^^ why should i solo with my PUP if i can do only 7 (well 8 with AF) blunt WS ? You just waist time if its the ws you can´t use and one more WS doesn´t mean i can proc the !! everytime. It's a 33% chance for H2H trigger and then a 20% chance for AF, or a 6% chance for AF during blunt time..... after all its not worth to waist the dev's time.
Same thing again, MNK can´t do blue !! cuz its Hexa Strike....
I don´t care if i got a quested ws or not, PUP got SP so why should i want AF ? As WS for DMG ? no thanks. Just for a friggn possible blue !! ? even more no thanks.
Thats means DNC shouldn´t get any WS cuz its a front-line healer ? DNC can use WS and heal the pt, that isn´t so hard.
If some ppl can´t even get 2 friends and do nyzul with them, then those ppl should think about it what they doing wrong ^^

If it was made available to PUPs though, you'd most certainly quest it, wouldn't you? See, you argue against it, but if it was made PUP accessable, you'd quest it. Just like everyone else.

[Alhanelem]

PUP can clearly wear certain Knuckles...Very specific exceptions- and. There are always exceptions, but generally speaking PUP can't use those weapons. BLU can't use rapier swords, most jobs other than WHM and PLD can't use maul/hammer clubs... etc.- and often those exceptions are tailor made for a specific job. One or two weapons out of many should not be taken to mean "oh, it can use those!"


Has no PUP on here ever thought "Jeez, too bad I can't blue stagger this NM even though it's Hand-to-Hand because I don't have Asuran Fists..."No, I haven't- because having one more blue !! proc doesn't change that hardcore abyssea groups won't let jobs with fewer procs go on those jobs- one more blue WS isn't going to change that. PUP doesn't proc in abyssea. If the automaton could do tier 3 and tier IV nukes of a specific element on command and automaton WS were part of the proc system, then PUP might actually get to go. But that won't happen. Sad reality of any regular abyssea group is your usefulness is determined purely by how many procs you can do. It doesn't matter how much damage you can put out (which is no longer an area PUP struggles in- one reason this ticks me off so much)- you dont have a bunch of procs, you're useless.


And has anyone thought about the new players to the game that can't get to Nyzul Isle due to lack of interest from the senior players?You don't need a full party for nyzul anymore, and it's waaay easier than it used to be. People still need this for the mythic weaponskill quests, so it really shouldn't be that hard to find people.

The bottom line is: It might have been nice to have when we were 75 before Pummel, but now, there's not much reason to be asking for it. MNK can keep their signature move- let us get something new instead.

[Mizuharu]

Again, if it was made accessible to PUPs, you'd still quest it, yes? I havn't seen a no to that yet.

[Alhanelem]

Again, if it was made accessible to PUPs, you'd still quest it, yes? I havn't seen a no to that yet.
Probably not- I'm too lazy to invest time earning weaponskill points for a WS I'll rarely use if ever.

[Mizuharu]

Probably not- I'm too lazy to invest time earning weaponskill points for a WS I'll rarely use if ever.

Wow... Didn't know the well geared PUPs were so quick to pass off having everything for any situation.

[Ahtos]

Why should ppl waist there time and unlock a WS, if they almost never use this one ? It's a single WS and as PUP you only "need" it for a possible (!!!) blue !!. I would be ok with that if the blue trigger @night is only AF but there are 14 other WS and PUP can only use 7 (or 8 with AF w/e) of those WS.
Idk why you still ignore this fact: Only jobs are usefull in abyssea who can proc the most !! (in this case it's MNK) and PUP don´t count to those jobs, even if they had AF.
If you really want AF, lvl MNK just simple.


Wow... Didn't know the well geared PUPs were so quick to pass off having everything for any situation.
We can´t have everything for any situation or did i miss the fact we can use all weapons, all WS and we can say hello to god ?


And no i wouldn´t do the quest cuz its a almost useless WS.

[Alhanelem]

Wow... Didn't know the well geared PUPs were so quick to pass off having everything for any situation.
In what situation would I use Asuran Fists over Victory Smite or Stringing Pummel, both of which are better?

Pummel allows Darkness, and Smite can do double light. We certainly don't need it for skillchains.

[Ahtos]

In what situation would I use Asuran Fists over Victory Smite or Stringing Pummel, both of which are better?
But you can´t proc blue !! ww

[Mizuharu]

In what situation would I use Asuran Fists over Victory Smite or Stringing Pummel, both of which are better?

Pummel allows Darkness, and Smite can do double light. We certainly don't need it for skillchains.
But you can´t proc blue !! ww

For PUPs who can't Nyzul Isle for Stringing Pummel. You all may have tons and tons of people who's names you can just pull off the top of your head and know they'd be interested, but others might not.

Nyzul can be easy at 90, yes. However. If you get a bad floor then you're boned and that's a wasted tag. You can get 4 tags (3 with NPC one on you) a day for a typical player (4 npc 1 on you with Captain rank.) consider that you burn 4 on one day, you're looking at clearing 5~20 levels a day depending on if you get unlucky or not. Now, you could go the next day and just use one tag, but that's isn't the case when it comes to most Nyzul Statics. They normally meet up once/twice a week. So every week, once a week, you climb 5~20 floors a run (or 0~20 if you're VERY unlucky...). That would take you 5~20 weeks to get (assuming I did my math right...)

5 floors = 1 tag = 1 day's worth of a charge
100/5 = 20; so 20 tags would be needed to climb to 100

Assume you do 4 runs the first day that's 20 down. Each run after that is 1 tag a day; so 16 days total at the lowest. Compared to something that takes 60 Magic Morter > Dragon Kicks.

[Ahtos]

And 16 days are long ? Even a month wouldn´t be the end of the world.

You don´t need tons of friends, just 2 and if you can´t even get 2 friends then you doing something terrible wrong.
You can join a floor 100 run and get ur weapon and while you climing up with ur friends, you can get the 250 points with ur trial weapon. You can unlock SP after you got ur runic disc.
Well or you solo the 16k points if you don´t wanna do all floors, thats just 3200 SC lol.

[Mizuharu]

Compared to a measly 300 ws points for something we didn't get because of the skill level required by 75? Yeah, it can be a bit long. So far the only reasons people are completely against it is that A) it was originally MNK only therefore it should stay that way or B) they'd themselves would never use it thus they feel it's pointless. If you find it so pointless, why keep arguing against it? A Dev team hasn't said yay or nay to it. So far we're pretty equal on terms of people who want and don't want it PUP accessible. And no, I'm just saying "NOT EVERYONE'S AGREEING WITH ME QQ". This was bound to happen since no one can agree 100% on almost any given thing. No one would force you to get it if it was there to have.

And going along with your train of thought that "why should PUP get this when no other job but MNK can get it", why should Stringing Pummel be a proc when none of the other mythic WSs can proc?

[Alhanelem]

But you can´t proc blue !! ww
Asuran isn't the only blue !! proc, but it doesn't matter. Every group is going to have a MNK, so there will never be a need for a PUP to do this. Having asuran fists wouldn't change that.

[Zaknafein]

Asuran isn't the only blue !! proc, but it doesn't matter. Every group is going to have a MNK, so there will never be a need for a PUP to do this. Having asuran fists wouldn't change that.

Lol every group is gonna have a monk... and a whm... then your set. Oh wait. Not every group of people out there is band wagon'd so hard they can't see str8. Being a Pup yourself you'd think anything that would broaden the range of staggers beyond "Mnk and Whm can duo abyssea durr hurr" would be a good thing. Or maybe your a new age lolabyssea burned pup who never felt the stigma of exclusion? Either way being against your own job getting an additional blue stagger for your main melee stat is sort of odd.

[Alhanelem]

Oh wait. Not every group of people out there is band wagon'd so hard they can't see str8.You're not in much of a position to talk about bandwagons, given what you've said about what you think PUP can and can't do. Monks are common- it's a base job that everyone has access to from the beginning. No matter where you go or what group you join, there's probably going to be a MNK somewhere. You don't have to be on the bandwagon- Because it's a basic job, you just flip coins or spin a die, you're going to land on a monk before long. Yes, we can bend over backwards and come up with creative ways to do things. But you don't strike me as one of them, nor is this a reason to take away one of the things that MNK has that no one else does.


Or maybe your a new age lolabyssea burned pup who never felt the stigma of exclusion?I was the first english speaking PUP75 on my server when it came out. I also am part of an LS of talented players who know how to get stuff done.

Instead of using the fallacy of attacking the person, how about a real argument? So far, you don't have one yet. I'm against this because
1) we simply don't need it; and
2) it takes something away from MNK that was previously unique to it. I know all too well what it's like to have things special taken away from you- something which is about to happen again in tomorrow's version update (SAM getting an ability that's basically a copy of a DNC flourish). I would rather them give us new things to improve our job than just hand us something some other job has.

With Pummel doing darkness and Smite doing light, the only purpose whatsoever of giving PUP asuran fists is to give them one more blue !!- something that really won't change anything and certainly won't make PUP more allowed in events.

[Zaknafein]

You're not in much of a position to talk about bandwagons, given what you've said about what you think PUP can and can't do.
I didn't say anything about what pup can/can not do.


I was the first english speaking PUP75 on the server when it came out. I also am part of an LS of talented players who know how to get stuff done.
If you've been a 75+ pup for that long why would you not want access to another blue stagger that your favorite job currently lacks in it's main combat skill?

[Zaknafein]

your ninja edit kinda borked my response...

[Alhanelem]

I didn't say anything about what pup can/can not do.You've said plenty about it. You've basically said the magic frame is useless and no one would ever want to or should use it.


If you've been a 75+ pup for that long why would you not want access to another blue stagger that your favorite job currently lacks in it's main combat skill? Because, for the 14th time, I don't need it, and another blue proc would not make me any more popular. The only thing I'm going to be on PUP for is either to kill things or to provide a little flexible support. No one asks a PUP because they can proc something, and adding one more blue proc is not going to change that.

The only thing that COULD change that is giving PUP skill in more weapons, or giving the master more direct control over which spells the automaton casts (to be able to proc all the BLM yellow procs)

Regardless, you're still going to see mostly WAR/MNK/NIN doing blue because between these three (technically WAR and NIN can do them all but MNK can do many of them and is more popular) they have all the weapons covered.

[Zaknafein]

You've said plenty about it. You've basically said the magic frame is useless and no one would ever want to or should use it.
Huh? lol I have no idea where you gathered that from. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else idk.


Because, for the 14th time, I don't need it, and another blue proc would not make me any more popular. The only thing I'm going to be on PUP for is either to kill things or to provide a little flexible support. No one asks a PUP because they can proc something, and adding one more blue proc is not going to change that.

The only thing that COULD change that is giving PUP skill in more weapons, or giving the master more direct control over which spells the automaton casts (to be able to proc all the BLM yellow procs)

OK so since you personally have no need for it because your group "always" has a monk then no other pup's should want this either. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense.

[Alhanelem]

Huh? lol I have no idea where you gathered that from. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else idk.Actually, I am (see other thread), and I apologize for that.


OK so since you personally have no need for it because your group "always" has a monk then no other pup's should want this either. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. Yup. It does make perfect sense. Out of all the things you could possible imagine SE giving PUP, this is about the most useless thing they could give. I suppose if you're solo/duoing on PUP or you absolutely can't find a MNK anywhere, there is a slight chance that you'll get asuran fists as a proc and be unable to do it. OR, you could just not fight the NM during blunt time and have someone else proc. Again, PUP doesn't need this. I don't know why you're so vehemently defending this like it would be some great godsend for PUP or would solve all of its problems. For one, we probably won't be doing abyssea forever, and giving us asuran fists on the sole basis of one event where it might possibly come in handy to have in rare cases is not a very sound decision. SE can invest their time and energy better elsehwere.

[Mizuharu]

Whoa hi Zak where have you been lol

[Zaknafein]

Whoa hi Zak where have you been lol

Got my annoying as hell monthly banning from PoL which fell on a friday when there is no call center hours. Worked out tho cuz friday a dozen of my friends showed up unannounced to badger me into going canoeing/camping with them. Was two days str8 of BBQ/partying, fantastic weather, and it didn't hurt that my friend Rose was going.

I'll get a bottle of Bacardi otw home from work tomorrow. Call up PoL tell them how much they suck at life for cancelling my content ID's every freaking 1st of the month regardless of me doing everything they ask for 6 MONTHS STR8, even switching cards just to make sure that wasn't the issue!! Then I'll be back in the evening.

I spoke to Kiali over the weekend she told me to tell everyone she says "HAI!"

[Alhanelem]

Why do you get banned every month?

[Mizuharu]

I don't think he means "banned" banned but every month POL says his credit card is invalid.

[Zaknafein]

Why do you get banned every month?

Excellent question lol!! I only wish I had an answer :)

[Ahtos]

The question is, why do you want AF for blue proc !! ? I only see i want, i want.... but no real resaon why.

Because you think everyone and there mother will invite you now cuz you have AF ? NO
Because you can proc all blue H2H !! ? Yes, cuz its only a small chance for AF, also NO
Because MNK got it and you QQ about it ? LOL

Idk if you guys playing on a private server but normaly there is always someone in the PT who can do blue !! Smart ppl going during blunt time and that means hello MNK not PUP! (not because we don´t have AF!!!)
Maybe you only lvled PUP but (and this is unbelieveable) there are ppl out there who lvled more than one job. I really wanna see the person who invite a PUP over a MNK for a blue !!. It's either a noob or a moron. (Yes i know PUP don´t get an invite cuz we don´t have AF lol)

[Xanaduu]

i dont see y pup shouldnt get AF, not like mnk would lose anything if we got it, or pup would gain anything from having it... its more of having it to have it, no pup doesnt need it but would be fun to be able to break that WSNM if not for just kicks and lols. stupid post i know so no1 has to shoot me down XD

[xbobx]

I want to know why Cannabal blade being exactly like Sanguine blade gives ruby and not amber like Sanguine.

[Alhanelem]

I want to know why Cannabal blade being exactly like Sanguine blade gives ruby and not amber like Sanguine.
Because cannibal blade is not treated as magic damage and sanguine blade is.

[Dfoley]

Outside of abyssea:
AF is better then ascetics fury, so for the 90% of monks without VS, AF is the go to ws of choice.
SP>AF outside of abyssea, and face smashes it inside.

That is the real reason pup dont have it and probably never will. It has nothing to do with blu procs, or being useful low man. Its the fact that monk, as one of the main DD in game, rely on AF for their big dd ws outside of abyssea where the game is planed to go.

If you want AF, do what every other self respecting pup did... level monk, it shares so many of the same merits it be stupid not to. Then you can have AF, and 14/15 blue procs.

[Mizuharu]

The question is, why do you want AF for blue proc !! ? I only see i want, i want.... but no real resaon why.

Because you think everyone and there mother will invite you now cuz you have AF ? NO
Because you can proc all blue H2H !! ? Yes, cuz its only a small chance for AF, also NO
Because MNK got it and you QQ about it ? LOL

Idk if you guys playing on a private server but normaly there is always someone in the PT who can do blue !! Smart ppl going during blunt time and that means hello MNK not PUP! (not because we don´t have AF!!!)
Maybe you only lvled PUP but (and this is unbelieveable) there are ppl out there who lvled more than one job. I really wanna see the person who invite a PUP over a MNK for a blue !!. It's either a noob or a moron. (Yes i know PUP don´t get an invite cuz we don´t have AF lol)

Will everyone and their mother have me come PUP for farming? No; I mostly BLU or NIN for that for Procs/Tanking. But if we do have those other jobs, I do get to come PUP because mine is a reliable source of DD. So on the off chance we start fighting something and the stagger is H2H and there is no MNK present because we were really just farming KI/Seals but someone would like the equipment from it, then yes. I would like to be able to cover ALL of the Hand-to-Hand staggers due to that being my MAIN COMBAT SKILL.

Becuase I want to proc all blue H2H? Well, seeing as the only other combat skill I get is Dagger which I will beat a PUP down with Lobo if I see someone seriously trying to main Daggers over Hand-to-Hand. (staggering/skilling up just cause we have the combat skill sure, that's cool.)

Because MNK got it and I'm QQing about it? You mean like EVERY OTHER PUP HAS DONE AT SOME POINT prior to Stringing Pummel (and a few after that like myself)

I don't know about your PUP, but mine is actually welcomed at events like Abyssea, Einherjar, Sea/Sky/HNM and is accepted for generally anything. If yours is bad and you can't go PUP to events to help your friends/linkshell mates out with it, then don't assume everyone with PUP will be forced to come something else over that.

[Elvyn]

The question is, why do you want AF for blue proc !! ? I only see i want, i want.... but no real resaon why.

Because you think everyone and there mother will invite you now cuz you have AF ? NO
Because you can proc all blue H2H !! ? Yes, cuz its only a small chance for AF, also NO
Because MNK got it and you QQ about it ? LOL

Idk if you guys playing on a private server but normaly there is always someone in the PT who can do blue !! Smart ppl going during blunt time and that means hello MNK not PUP! (not because we don´t have AF!!!)
Maybe you only lvled PUP but (and this is unbelieveable) there are ppl out there who lvled more than one job. I really wanna see the person who invite a PUP over a MNK for a blue !!. It's either a noob or a moron. (Yes i know PUP don´t get an invite cuz we don´t have AF lol)

So.... so many things wrong with this.... ill put them in numerical order for you...

1) All you see is I want I want? Well hell yea, this is a game we PAY to play... so forgive me if I put forward what I want from a game.

2) Why would everyone and there mothers invite you? Surely there mothers should be in the same pty to avoid conflict!?

3) Blue procs??? Yea that would be kewl on the off hand but... refer to "1)"

4) When did this all become about procs? Simple it didn't (but 90% of your answer seems to reference it)

So to put an end to this "QQin" we don't need a reason to have AF, its been long overdue since pup got the H2H update and I'm sorry I don't/can't get VS or SP but dose that mean as a pup I have to fall back on WS like TC and DC that mainly factor in MNKS footwork and kick attacks ability?

Another little thought for you before I go..... Why did COR get Ev, Why dose BST have SH? None of these jobs are first choice to proc blu but they have them, at some point these WS where made available for them.... so whats the HARM (see I canz bold to ;3 )
in giving pup 1 more WS... we dont want a new flashy one with new aminations... we just want... AF!

[Jar]

your ninja edit kinda borked my response...

internet rule 14 man just give up on that guy

he will never change his mind its like arguing with a woman.

[Xanaduu]

still funny to me that pple use the argument that pup shouldnt get AF cause it was MNKs main big dmg ws, but its still a WSNM WS, its like saying cor shouldnt have access to detonator cause we get leaden salute and wild fire @.@ makes no sense to me.
mnk will still make AF better than a pup so i see no harm in giving it to pup just to give it to pup "why bother?" why not? :P

[Lazus]

I see both side of the argument, but think i'm more on the side that AF should be given to pup. Like other said hand to hand is pup main and pup doesn't have a wsnm as is, also mnk will do better dmg on AF just because they get excess to way more dd gear then pup can even dream of.

[Alhanelem]

Giving it to PUP takes a MNK only thing away from MNK.
PUP doesn't need the WS, either for best damage or for skillchain purposes. PUP's own quested WS is better, as is Victory Smite.
There's no good reason to give it to PUP, and MNKs can keep it.

I'm a PUP and I don't want it, and I'm sure no MNK wants their big MNK-only WS to not be MNK only anymore.

No matter how much or how little time investment it would take to make the change, the dev team has better things they can do than to give PUP a WS that most PUP would rarely ever use if at all.

[Mizuharu]

Giving it to PUP takes a MNK only thing away from MNK.
PUP doesn't need the WS, either for best damage or for skillchain purposes. PUP's own quested WS is better, as is Victory Smite.
There's no good reason to give it to PUP, and MNKs can keep it.

I'm a PUP and I don't want it, and I'm sure no MNK wants their big MNK-only WS to not be MNK only anymore.

Take away a MNK only thing? It's not like we're asking for Black Belt/Counter/Higher Guard/Boost/anything like that. We're asking for access to a WS for our main weapon. Just like how every other job has one they can quest for. Didn't COR take the "big RNG-only WS" detonator from RNG? You'd say no because their main combat skill is Marksmenship and they met the skill level by 75. Just like we can since the combat rating upgrade.

There is no good reason to give it to PUP? Is there a bad reason besides your "MNK-only WS" argument? Or that you yourself don't want it?

[Alhanelem]

We're asking for access to a WS for our main weapon"we," or more accurately you, are just asking for something we don't need. Fix the WHMa uto's behavior. Give PUP something new. Don't waste development time on changing quest for PUPs to do it and changing the items and WS for pup to use them. We don't need it, and that's all there is to it. It would change nothing and not really benefit anyone.

[Mizuharu]

Fix the WHMa uto's behavior. Give PUP something new. Don't waste development time on changing quest for PUPs to do it and changing the items and WS for pup to use them. We don't need it, and that's all there is to it. It would change nothing and not really benefit anyone.

I think doing the coding for the Asuran Fists quest would take the same, if not less, time than the WHM AI; which if you aren't use to it by now, then damn. And you aren't reading the other posts of other PUPs agreeing with me or are you reading just what you want to see?

[Alhanelem]

I don't care if it takes 5 minutes or 5 months, the dev team's time is better spent elsewhere from giving us a WS that serves us little purpose other than to say we have it, which is the only compelling argument i've heard so far.

There are people agreeing with me too. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean you're right or your opinion is the best one. It irritates me when you throw around words like "we" without describing what "we" is- Your implication is that it's "the PUP community" but you'd be naive to think and assume that every PUP wants or needs Asuran Fists.

We've done just fine without it in the several years PUP has been implemented. I don't see why we need it now.

[Mizuharu]

When I say we, I mean the puppetmaster community that would like this weapon skill. And isn't Savage Blade for COR just so they can say they have it? Yes, they should spend their time fixing the AI system, but this wouldn't take even a fraction of that time to do. And so far your only compelling argument is that the time should be spent on the AI system; which, again, this would only take a fraction of that time...

[Alhanelem]

I mean the puppetmaster community that would like this weapon skill.Except you do not represent The Puppetmaster Community, as I am a part of that and disagree with you. As do other people. You cannot assume that just because you think something that everyone else does.


And so far your only compelling argument is that the time should be spent on the AI system; which, again, this would only take a fraction of that time... I've listed many compelling arguments. One example of things they could do instead is probably the least compelling of all of them.

I don't see what's not compelling about the simple fact that we haven't needed it for the last several years, we don't need it now, we have better stuff, there's just no reason to add it over adding anything else you could ever conceive adding. It's just not useful once you have stringing pummel, and no PUP should ever be without stringing pummel.

If we don't need something, why add it? The only real reason I keep seeing is essnetially "just because."

[Xanaduu]

what about newer pups or pple that dont have the time for nyzul that cant get SP let alone VS? it would help them and lets face it, SE has done alot of dumb stuff that never made sense in the past... why would they stop now? XD
also, adding pup to the wsnm would be easier than doing the AI fix that they seem to be avoiding like the plague and would probably be used as a "this should keep em quiet for another week" ploy >.> could totally see that happening

[Lazus]

what about newer pups or pple that dont have the time for nyzul that cant get SP let alone VS? it would help them and lets face it, SE has done alot of dumb stuff that never made sense in the past... why would they stop now? XD
also, adding pup to the wsnm would be easier than doing the AI fix that they seem to be avoiding like the plague and would probably be used as a "this should keep em quiet for another week" ploy >.> could totally see that happening
True, I have SP and love it, but not all pup have it and they can't solo it or depending on servers may not be able to get people for it. Beside AF is at least a blue trigger which does have a use if you want certain drops. And SE is clearly bent on not fixing the AI, they just missed another chance with the lat major update. (Anyone notice all the topic Alhanelem seem t be in he arguing about something ad usually telling everyone that they are wrong? wondering if it just me)

[Ahtos]

Almost everyone acting like the SP is hard to get like a relic weapon. If you don´t have @ least 2 friends (or a LS) @ the point you hit lvl 75 than you should leave the game immediately. If not even 2 ppl from your LS wanna help you, look for another one cuz you got one with some selfish morons.
Nyzul Isle isn´t a event like the old dynamis where you need a couple of hours and alot ppl to finish it, you don´t even need 30min (30min is the max anyways) and only 2 other ppl.
The "i can't get help with nyzul isle" argument is a poor exuse for ppl who are too lazy to ask other ppl for help.


what about newer pups or pple that dont have the time for nyzul that cant get SP let alone VS?
If those ppl don´t even have time for nyzul isle then how they can lvl there jobs in the first place ? 30min in nyzul isle is nothing compared to the other stuff in ffxi.


Take away a MNK only thing? It's not like we're asking for Black Belt/Counter/Higher Guard/Boost/anything like that. We're asking for access to a WS for our main weapon. Just like how every other job has one they can quest for. Didn't COR take the "big RNG-only WS" detonator from RNG? You'd say no because their main combat skill is Marksmenship and they met the skill level by 75. Just like we can since the combat rating upgrade.

Because its only a WS it isn´t important like the other MNK-only stuff ? If its not such important why you want it so badly and how many Detonator spamming RNG do you saw b4 COR ? You can´t really compare those or other quested WS with MNK and PUP.
BTW the funny thing is you don´t really lvled your MNK but you wanna talk about things you never did b4. You never got AF for your MNK, no wonder why (next funny thing cuz its crap for PUP) you want it for PUP.

[Dfoley]

SP (nyzul) isnt hard. I started late and only recently did nyzul. Yes it took the better part of 5 weeks to finish just doing 20 floors every Sunday, but with a static 3 man group and picking up a random 2 each week it was no issue at all.

If you can't do nyzul, then I dont know what to tell you, because 2 hrs once a week is about as casual as you can get.

The rest of this thread is pointless though, PUP dont need Asuran Fists, not for damage, and not for blue procs (which are a tiny part of the game that will slowly be phased out).

That being said, ill /sign the petition to NOT get it.

5 minutes of coding time spent on giving us a useless ws is 5 minutes farther away from a better ai.

[Mizuharu]

BTW the funny thing is you don´t really lvled your MNK but you wanna talk about things you never did b4. You never got AF for your MNK, no wonder why (next funny thing cuz its crap for PUP) you want it for PUP.

I play another account for someone when she isn't able to get on. MNK90. You -really- shouldn't go by FFXIAH just to see if someone knows what they're doing half the time.

Why, just looking on yours (I'm assuming it's Ahtos on Raganrok Server; another reason not to go by the website. Not sure who's who. though, in my case, all three of the Mizuharus that show up are me.) it says you're level 90 on everything. Impressive... If, you know, it wasn't so easy to burn a job up to 90. Then again, I shouldn't go by that since idk if you actually do play all those jobs and have them all geared properly. I see merits, but those are just as easy to get now a days.


Except you do not represent The Puppetmaster Community, as I am a part of that and disagree with you. As do other people. You cannot assume that just because you think something that everyone else does.

Again, I'm talking as a PUP part of the community that would like the WS. Just as you don't speak for everyone saying they don't want the WS because, looking through here, there are quite a few posters that do want it. But this will most likely be ignored by the developers just like the AI thread. See? Neither of us are most likely going to get what we'd like~ All's fair in the end.

[Lazus]

5 minutes of coding time spent on giving us a useless ws is 5 minutes farther away from a better ai.

Which they have showed no interest in doing anyway.

[Alhanelem]

what about newer pups or pple that dont have the time for nyzul that cant get SP let alone VS? There's no excuse for this. I still see people shouting for it. Many myhic WS are good, and as long as there are people that need them there will be people doing nyzul. if you're lucky enough to get your weapon before you reach the top, you can stop once you get at least halfway up if you've been having trouble getting in, when the number of WS points starts to become more reasonable. As for nyzul itself, it's easier than ever. If you are really fast, it's quite possible to do 10 floors in a run. I have cleared a set of 5 in less than half of the allotted time- so I know it can be done.

As for victory smite, if you're patient enough you can solo farm the coins for revenant fists +2.


Which they have showed no interest in doing anyway. Eh, one can always hope.

All that really needs to be done is to treat cures and -na spells as seperate spell groups (like already exists for other types of spells plus the current cure+na group) so you can specifically choose to get a cure or a -na spell.

[Mizuharu]

There's no excuse for this. I still see people shouting for it. Many myhic WS are good, and as long as there are people that need them there will be people doing nyzul. if you're lucky enough to get your weapon before you reach the top, you can stop once you get at least halfway up if you've been having trouble getting in, when the number of WS points starts to become more reasonable. As for nyzul itself, it's easier than ever. If you are really fast, it's quite possible to do 10 floors in a run. I have cleared a set of 5 in less than half of the allotted time- so I know it can be done.

No excuse? Okay. Yes, there's always someone doing Nyzul Isle most likely. Just maybe not the floors you need. Now a days, if there is a Nyzul Shout, it's always for boss floors for equipment.

But, for your sake, we'll go ahead and say that everyone should have mythic weapon skills.

Okay, done.

MNK still gets Asruan Fists cause of 250 combat skill. And please don't say the whole "master mnk" storyline. They managed to get everyone else into the quests for WSNM WSs. Even BRDs get Evisceration. Explain how they'd fit into the storyline for a quest that teaches "the deadliest dagger attack." Or, hell, the PLD job NPC is the started for the Impulse Drive quest and also part of the DRG AF quest, but his WS is meant only for WAR/SAM/DRG. Why not PLD? Didn't hit that 240 mark under/at 75. All in all, they don't need PUP to fit into the "master monk" storyline behind the starter NPC.

Eh, one can always hope.

All that really needs to be done is to treat cures and -na spells as seperate spell groups (like already exists for other types of spells plus the current cure+na group) so you can specifically choose to get a cure or a -na spell.

The AI system for the WHM frame is pretty much a mock version of the NPC AI; save for the fact that NPCs has a much shorter delay between spells than the automaton and buffs are included into the NPC's AI and that we can prompt certain actions, not all. If they fix the WHM Automaton AI, they're going to have to fix the NPC AI along with that. How long do you think that'd take?

[Dfoley]

I have to agree that there is no reason not to be able to get the nyzul ws now adays. You can even go as a pup now and still contribute. Back in the day it was mnk and sam onry and it sucked for it.

Dont rely on a shout for someone doing the floors you need/want, MAKE A STATIC, it takes 2 hrs once a week and you can go 20 floors minimum a weekend (best my group ever did was 25 floors, but its all on the luck of the floors you get).
We did 20, 40, 60, and did a mid week 70, 90, mid week 100. Took us 4.5 weeks and aside from me, my brother, and 1 friend, everyone else changed weekly.

IT IS SO EASY, i cannot stress it enough.

As for why pups shouldnt get asuran fists:
1) We are clowns/performers, not martial artists, it says it with everything we do and everything SE gives us including our class description, af look and name, the much later MA trais, lack of DD based JA.

2) we cant even use all types of h2h weapon, specifically the one type needed to unlock it.
pup can use:
baghnakhs
claws
katars
sainti

mnk can also use
knuckles * trial weapon for asurans fists
cesti * how the trial weapon is described in the quest text.

I dont think its an accident that we dont have it, even after having our h2h skill uped to B+. The lack of an A+ skill translates into SE thinking we arent real DD and thats why our pets get A+ skill and bad ass ws. I am honestly supprised no ranger has complained about armor shatter yet.

[Alhanelem]

Just maybe not the floors you need.If you need a certain floor, start a party yourself. If you really can't get 2 friends or 2 random people to go, I see a problem here.

@ previous post: in b4 someone mentions scogan's knuckles again- its a special weapon made for PUP.


If they fix the WHM Automaton AI, they're going to have to fix the NPC AI along with that. How long do you think that'd take? While it's similar, the NPC AI is a seperate beast. The NPC just casts whatever spell it wants, the only rule he has is he won't cast a buff on you that you already have.

[Mizuharu]

As for why pups shouldnt get asuran fists:
1) We are clowns/performers, not martial artists, it says it with everything we do and everything SE gives us including our class description, af look and name, the much later MA trais, lack of DD based JA.

2) we cant even use all types of h2h weapon, specifically the one type needed to unlock it.
pup can use:
baghnakhs
claws
katars
sainti

mnk can also use
knuckles * trial weapon for asurans fists
cesti * how the trial weapon is described in the quest text.

I dont think its an accident that we dont have it, even after having our h2h skill uped to B+. The lack of an A+ skill translates into SE thinking we arent real DD and thats why our pets get A+ skill and bad ass ws. I am honestly supprised no ranger has complained about armor shatter yet.

If we're not martial artist, we wouldn't get Martial Arts traits and we'd all be using daggers or staying completely on the side lines while our pet did all the damage (rather than doing this when the situation calls for it)

Furor Cesti
Scogan's Knuckles (It's still an exception to the rule Tah.)
Heofon Knuckles

are Cesti/Knuckles that PUP can wear. They can clearly make exceptions. RDM and COR can't wear Sapara swords normally but the Sapara of Trials is an exception to this rule.

If we "aren't real DD", why would Stringing Pummel be so highly praised despite it being a PUP WS?


While it's similar, the NPC AI is a seperate beast. The NPC just casts whatever spell it wants, the only rule he has is he won't cast a buff on you that you already have.

The NPC follows simple rules for spell casting.

Remove status effects from PC.
Remove Status Effects from self.
Cure PC.
Cure Self.
*(if in combat) Cast enfeebling spells on the target. (If an Enfeeb lands, it will not recast until it wears)
*(if not in combat/none of the above need to be done) Enhance PC and Self.
*While normally true, the NPC might swap these around depending on what buff it's casting (Pro/Shell/Haste) They normally never cast Stoneskin/Blink unless all enfeebing spells they have access to are on the target or they were casting it prior to engaging a monster.

While the Automaton's AI system, as taken from your wiki (without any maneuvers present)
PC/Auto HP:100%~75% Status Removal → Silence → Slow → Blind → Paralyze → Bio II → Poison → Cure VI
PC/Auto HP: 75%~0% Status Removal → Cure VI → Silence → Slow → Blind → Paralyze → Bio II → Poison

Same rule; if an enfeeb lands, the Automaton will not cast the debuff again on the same mob unless it's removed/wears off naturally. They're basicly one in the same save for the buffing rule on NPC. Only that the automaton has a longer spellcast delay between spells and that we can prompt certain enfeebs with maneuvers.

[Dfoley]

Exceptions to the rule dont change the rule. Its like I before E unless after C. Its still a rule, even if there are exceptions to it.

I ment PUP alone isnt considered a DD, you HAVE to factor our pet in to compare us to DD like SAM or RNG or MNK or WAR. The reason SP is highly praised is because they gave a lesser DD a more powerful ws because we needed the mods back at 75 to compete. Then abyssea and the level increase happened, and crit ws became godly and acc no longer mattered. Its like when you look at a mage ws and ask 'why do mages that never melee and have B skill at best have better ftp mods'. Its because they needed it at a time.

We arent martial artists, think Cirque du Solei. Nimble, agile, physically fit, and as a result we have enough muscle to fight with our hands, and hence why our MA tier is so far behind someone who does nothing other then fight with their hands.

[Alhanelem]

Furor Cesti
Scogan's Knuckles (It's still an exception to the rule Tah.)
Heofon Knucklesyes. EXCEPTIONS to the RULE. The general RULE is PUP can't use those weapon types; except in a rare special case where such a weapon is specifically made for PUP. No existing weapon of those types was made usable by pup when or anytime after it was released. Just drop it already.

PUP uses hand to hand weapons, yes. But they're not martial arts profressionals to the degree MNKs are. We get the martial arts trait yes, but much less of it than a MNK. Maybe you don't know the story behind asuran fists, but it is an attack to be used only by the greatist martial arts masters, of which PUP is not.

[Mizuharu]

yes. EXCEPTIONS to the RULE. The general RULE is PUP can't use those weapon types; except in a rare special case where such a weapon is specifically made for PUP. No existing weapon of those types was made usable by pup when or anytime after it was released. Just drop it already.

Don't think I will. Explain the Saparta of Trials then. The general rule is that only WAR/THF/PLD/DRK/BLU can wear, but the trial one is for WAR/RDM/PLD/DRK/BLU/COR. When they added DNC they added them to Evisceration though they normally can not weild dagger type daggers (such as this one (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16450/dagger)) WSNM weapons always made exceptions for jobs so long as that job could reach that skill naturally by 75. Can't see why PUP wouldn't apply to this rule.


PUP uses hand to hand weapons, yes. But they're not martial arts profressionals to the degree MNKs are. We get the martial arts trait yes, but much less of it than a MNK. Maybe you don't know the story behind asuran fists, but it is an attack to be used only by the greatist martial arts masters, of which PUP is not.

For every WSNM trial it mentions at this is an attack meant for "the greatest" of said weapon. On it's release, Monk was the only Hand-to-Hand job and thus Asuran Fists was exclusive to them. Every other job could not reach the skill level they had set for Asuran Fists. I don't really think you have too much of a case with Asuran fists being for "the greatist martial arts masters" because ever weapon has been treated like that, yet every job has access to at least one of them if not multiple.

[Ahtos]

It's like talking to a wall lol If you don´t accept other options then don´t post in forums ^^
8 pages now and its the same crap over and over again. You asked a question, ppl gave you an answer why PUP don´t have AF, you ask again and ppl gave you the same answer, you ask again,...... funny huh?! It's more like talking to a little kid cuz they wanna know everything even you already gave them an answer.

Btw. PUP's main weapon isn´t the H2H, its the Puppet. Yes its the Master's highest combat skill (and it was Throwing b4 the H2H skill increase) but that doesn´t mean PUP is the world champion in martial arts and should get every H2H weapon and WS.
PUP don´t have access to Spharai too, its the same story.

[Alhanelem]

I'm still seeing no good reason other than "we deserve it" or "just because other people get trial WS."

Asuran fists does not help PUP DD better. It does not help PUP skillchain better. It does not help PUP be more wanted in events or parties. It solves no problem that PUP has.

No time should be invested in this whatsoever. Give PUP another unique WS if you want, that does do something to solve a problem. Give PUP something it really needs. Give it anything but Asuran Fists, which it doesn't need at all.

@ AI stuff: I'm not disputing or discussing how the automaton AI works. But NPC AI and the automaton AI are not the same thing, were made at different times, and most likely use their own code. Fixing one doesn't necessarily fix the other.

[Mizuharu]

It's like talking to a wall lol If you don´t accept other options then don´t post in forums ^^
8 pages now and its the same crap over and over again. You asked a question, ppl gave you an answer why PUP don´t have AF, you ask again and ppl gave you the same answer, you ask again,...... funny huh?! It's more like talking to a little kid cuz they wanna know everything even you already gave them an answer.

The feeling's mutual...


Btw. PUP's main weapon isn´t the H2H, its the Puppet. Yes its the Master's highest combat skill (and it was Throwing b4 the H2H skill increase) but that doesn´t mean PUP is the world champion in martial arts and should get every H2H weapon and WS.
PUP don´t have access to Spharai too, its the same story.

Oh yeah, throwing! Ah claiming DI on PUP... Fun times... And obviously PUP can't use Spharai... BLU COR SCH DNC are not listed on any relic weapons, why would PUP... If fact, why even compare asking for this WS to asking for relic access?

Though Tah, you're always interesting to talk to on certain things and this was fun but I think I'll leave this topic be at least until a Dev member looks over it and says their piece. I'm leaving this topic open though for everyone else that wants to post their thoughts on this here.

[Alhanelem]

Well, they don't post in threads when people ask for their attention, they've stated this, so that's a vain hope at best...

[Yoky]

So I find this funny.. All you "pup's" QQ'n over not having Stringing Pummel and not having a nyzul climb group and not having A. Fist.. how bout this.

1) Find a couple friends and get to farming weapons (if you dont have them)
2) When you get your weapon use those friends to skillchain or get to WS'n on your own and with your automaton (with how much you are complaining it would take you less time to get SP, get solo WS'n and quit complaining)

So all in all, it's very easy to get the nyzul weapon and very easy to get the WS. I got SP when i was on floor 20. There are enough people still without the weapons that would be willing to farm with you. Also I dont wanna hear your complaining bout "OMG thats so many points I need to get" no need for it, you do enough stuff that you could get points from that you shouldnt be complaining. SIMPLE AS THAT.

If you dont have SP you are just LAZY, get to work on it and quit complaining.

[Alhanelem]

Also you can accumulate WS points between nyzul runs, and keep climbing in the meantime. The point requirement will be reduced for every floor you gain (even if it's not a full set of 5, as long as you exit before the time is up it counts) and when the point requirement meets up with the points you've earned, you're done.

[Mizuharu]

Okay, yes Nyzul can be very easy to climb for Stringing Pummel. Yes, you could solo the coins for Victory Smite. But, again, every other job gets a WSNM except PUP. Because they all met the skill level by 75. After the update, we met the required skill level at 75. That's the only other reason other jobs got their WSNMs.

But then you'll argue about the lore behind the WS when the other jobs ignore the story behind their WSNMs. Or the fact PUP can't wear the weapon-type Hand-to-Hand that the Knuckles of Trials are, though there have been exceptions for PUP on H2H weapons and other jobs on other weapons (Ex: DNC using Dagger of Trials when they normally can't wear regular daggers.) So I'm just mentioning those here to save you all the trouble.

[Jar]

Okay, yes Nyzul can be very easy to climb for Stringing Pummel. Yes, you could solo the coins for Victory Smite. But, again, every other job gets a WSNM except PUP. Because they all met the skill level by 75. After the update, we met the required skill level at 75. That's the only other reason other jobs got their WSNMs.

But then you'll argue about the lore behind the WS when the other jobs ignore the story behind their WSNMs. Or the fact PUP can't wear the weapon-type Hand-to-Hand that the Knuckles of Trials are, though there have been exceptions for PUP on H2H weapons and other jobs on other weapons (Ex: DNC using Dagger of Trials when they normally can't wear regular daggers.) So I'm just mentioning those here to save you all the trouble.

Pup can use Eviseration!(sp) but cant unless /jobthat canWSNM it

[Mizuharu]

Pup can use Eviseration!(sp) but cant unless /jobthat canWSNM it

Evisceration is only available to Thieves, Corsairs, Red Mages, Warriors, Bards, Rangers, Beastmasters, Dancers and Ninjas. While other jobs can obtain the required 230 Dagger skill, they will be unable to use Evisceration.
(taken from http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Evisceration)

It's not like Energy Drain...

Energy Drain is only natively available to Thieves, Red Mages, Bards, Rangers, Dancers, and Ninjas. While other jobs can obtain the required 175 Dagger skill, they must use one of the aforementioned jobs as their support job in order to gain access to Energy Drain.

(taken from http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Energy_Drain

[Jar]

Evisceration is only available to Thieves, Corsairs, Red Mages, Warriors, Bards, Rangers, Beastmasters, Dancers and Ninjas. While other jobs can obtain the required 230 Dagger skill, they will be unable to use Evisceration.
(taken from http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Evisceration)

It's not like Energy Drain...

Energy Drain is only natively available to Thieves, Red Mages, Bards, Rangers, Dancers, and Ninjas. While other jobs can obtain the required 175 Dagger skill, they must use one of the aforementioned jobs as their support job in order to gain access to Energy Drain.

(taken from http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Energy_Drain

Hmm i swear it was in the list last time a proced with cyclone.. meh.. dont even have a dagger to check atm..

[Alhanelem]

(Ex: DNC using Dagger of Trials when they normally can't wear regular daggers.)Umm... what? Since when could dancer not use "regular daggers?" As opposed to what kind of daggers? DNC can use the vast majority of daggers that aren't a mage dagger or a few that are THF only. But many daggers, especially harpes.,are THF/DNC.

[Xanaduu]

i believe they meant dnc cant use baselard type daggers save for magian now and oh... look at that >.> the eviseration dagger. i just looked up every baselard type dagger and its only those 2 exeptions, well and the fake mandau, point is i guess... y add dnc to WSNM dagger when a baselard is not thier useable weapon type and not for pup? >.> seems like they added dnc to it easy enough... easy to do for pup 2 @.@. that is 1 of the main reasons pple dont understand y pup doesnt have it yet. so if we get it we get it... if we dont... i think pple will live... some1 lock this thread now plz^^ *looks for asprin*

[Yoky]

btw: I have capped dagger and no you cant use eviseration. so your arguement fails. I dunno why you even want Asuran Fists beside the fact that you can do a backflip. SP is a stronger WS.

[Mizuharu]

btw: I have capped dagger and no you cant use eviseration. so your arguement fails. I dunno why you even want Asuran Fists beside the fact that you can do a backflip. SP is a stronger WS.


Who are you talking to? The guy that tried to side with you about PUP not getting Asuran Fists by saying Evisceration was PUP accessable? Or me who corrected him, but you took it as me saying we get Evisceration and tried to make it a failed argument? He was mistaken; not a fail.

Why would a BST want Spiral Hell? They main axes. Why would a BRD want Evisceration? They never melee by the level they can get it. Why would a RNG want Decimation? Their main damage is always from ranged attacks. Save for some newer players, everyone has done all the WSNMs for their jobs since Abyssea came out and blue staggering was installed; if not before because they could. That's the only reason.

Why should we get Asuran Fists? Why shouldn't we? You say it sucks and that Stringing Pummel is better; which it is. It's vastly better. But then, why should BST get Spiral Hell? Rampage/Primal Rend will always top it. RNGs will always stay out of melee range by the time they can learn Evisceration/Decimation. You ever see a PLD tank with a Great Sword rather than a shield/sword? (Actually, scratch that last one. There's always going to be one of those PLDs leveling up thinking Great Sword will be better because it hits harder...) Any mage job meleeing on anything that requires a group effort? Hell, even solo a BLM or SCH is going to depend on nukes over melee damage. RDM I'm not going to say can't melee because they were originally made to be melee/mage hybrid. They can effectively solo most things with the right subjob, gear, and knowing when it's okay to melee or to focus on magic.

And that lore bit is crap since none of the other WSNMs actually stick to their lore if other jobs were added onto them. (Ex: Brutus is an ExBeastmaster. He starts the Decimation WSNM quest; which BST can use, yes. Along with DRK/WAR/RNG. RNG I can see being -kinda- like BST because of the lore for that job, but DRK and WAR? lol. Only reason they're on that? They got the skill level for the weapon by 75.)

[Alhanelem]

everyone has done all the WSNMs for their jobs since Abyssea came out and blue staggering was installedNot really, unless you're a quest completionist junkie, no one wants to waste time earning WS points for a WS they won't ever use.

[Jar]

Not really, unless you're a quest completionist junkie, no one wants to waste time earning WS points for a WS they won't ever use.

i got them all to proc because procing is a big thing and from how SE has moved on with voidwatch and dyna having procs i doubt it will go away.

[Deadvinta]

Empyreal Arrow, not Arching Arrow.

Now settle down and have fun with Stringing Pummel instead. PUP would probably get a WSNM weaponskill that ended up being crap anyway.

[Alhanelem]

Let SP trigger blue !! too and the problem (?) is solved.
I like this idea, though non-PUPs will hate it. :p


After they bumped PUP's Hand-to-Hand skill up from C to B+ (not B-) while the cap was still 75, they met the required skill level for Asurun Fists. Your argument is invalid on that... That doesn't invalidate my argument. There is no precedent for changing quests following a balance change like this. In fact I'm not sure that any job has had it's combat skill cap increased the way PUP's was. At the time, they obviously felt that Asuran should remain MNK exclusive. They had already given us several MNK-exclusive WS prior to that, do we really need to step on their toes any more than we already have? The Trial Weapon is not a type of HTH weapon that is standard to PUP, and they generally don't change allowed jobs on items, other than when a new job is introduced.

[Mizuharu]

I like this idea, though non-PUPs will hate it. :p

That doesn't invalidate my argument. There is no precedent for changing quests following a balance change like this. In fact I'm not sure that any job has had it's combat skill cap increased the way PUP's was. At the time, they obviously felt that Asuran should remain MNK exclusive. They had already given us several MNK-exclusive WS prior to that, do we really need to step on their toes any more than we already have? The Trial Weapon is not a type of HTH weapon that is standard to PUP, and they generally don't change allowed jobs on items, other than when a new job is introduced.

Why should they make a mythic WS proc Blue when no other Mythic WS can? They made the WSNM WSs proc because most everyone can get them with ease; where as Nyzul it depends on the floor you're on.

The Dagger of Trials isn't the standard type of dagger DNCs can use. And we already discussed that I meant to say your argument is flawed. All you're doing is going back and rewording your previous statements, making it seem like it's something new to the table. That's all we've been doing; back and forth. Anytime I bring up a counter argument, you bring up what I just countered but restructured. Honestly, it's old...

1) Was originally MNK only, should stay MNK only. (One of two compelling argument so far. But Dancing Edge/Shark Bite use to be THF only and then DNC was added on. "But those aren't WSNM WSs" Fine. Detonator. Originally RNG only, COR was added on due to them getting the combat skill requirement.)

2) PUP doesn't need it because they have Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite. (BST mains Axes and rarely, if ever, use scythe. They don't need Sprial Hell. COR's main damage is from marksmenship. They don't need Savage Blade/Evisceration. MNK mains Hand-to-Hand. Why do they need Staff/Club WSs? Again; because Square-Enix gave them the combat rating. Thus, because they got the combat skill without merits/gear before or at level 75, they were allowed to partake in the WSNM quest.)

3) The time spent adding PUP onto the weapons could be used to fix the Automaton AI. (Really? You think that adding Puppetmaster onto one weapon would take longer than rewriting an AI program? You think it'd take that much effort that they'd say "well, that's all they'll get for a while. Let's save the AI program for next year." It's been how long since WHM/BLM frames have been out? And they still havn't done anything about -nas before Cures and high thresholds for Aspir/Drain. The AI works for solo play. They meant PUP to be a solo job that can still DD in party formats (like BST.))

4) If they wanted us to have it, they'd have done it when we received the combat update. (True. This, honestly, is the only good point any of you have made. But there's so many things that certain jobs should have gotten, and are now getting (Yonin/Innin on seperate timers. Longer duration on Last Resort. Just to name a few.) I am hoping to get a Dev to notice this thread and at least say yay or nay.)

5) Just make Stringing Pummel a blue proc! (See above post before this list.)

6) Puppetmaster can't wear the type of weapon the trial weapon is for Asuran Fists. (Again, see above the list.)

7) There's only a one in three chance that, during blunt hours, the WS is Hand-to-Hand. And then a one in five chance it's Asuran Fists. (True, true. But, like people have said, procing !! is such a small part of the game. And, honestly, I admit to originally writing this thread for blue procing on PUP. But now it's just for equaility; having access to our main weapon's WSNM.)

8) Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better. (While this is true, if you met a MNK that didn't have Asuran Fists, you'd be appalled. If you met any job that doesn't have the WSNM for their main weapon, you'd be appalled. Atm, PUP is expected to not have it because they don't have access to it. Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better damage for PUP, yes. But Ascetic's Fury/Victory Smite is better for MNK with damage.)

9) It'd ruin the lore behind the quest. (Because the lore for any other quest had mattered for the rest of the WSNMs.)


Please, if I missed any points you or someone else had made against this, let me know.

[Alhanelem]

5) Just make Stringing Pummel a blue proc! (See above post before this list.)Again, if anything, this is what I would do, but 90% of the playerbase would probably be railing SE if they did this.


While this is true, if you met a MNK that didn't have Asuran Fists, you'd be appalled.Only because it is a proc. Otherwise I'd be glad they have something better to use.


(Because the lore for any other quest had mattered for the rest of the WSNMs.)You know, some people care about the story and the lore. After all, isn't it supposed to be one of FFXI's greatest strengths over other MMOs?

[Mizuharu]

You know, some people care about the story and the lore. After all, isn't it supposed to be one of FFXI's greatest strengths over other MMOs?

And then along came Abyssea...

That's more of a joke response than a serious one lol. Honestly, the lore behind quests/NPCs is ignored when needed. The PLD starter NPC? He also plays a role in the DRG quest. And teaches Impulse Drive. A DRG/WAR/SAM WS. Why isn't PLD included on it? (Because of low combat ranking in polearm.) Or, and this time it isn't some minor quest thing, what about Aegis? The NPC in the past that weilds it is Cerane I Virgaut, where as the NPC you see during the CS is Perseus. Hell, the original owner of Annihilator was Elivira from, but then the CS shows Elrica (might be related in some way since both are humes, but...) You look up any other relic weapon wielded by an Allied Army NPC, and they're the NPC for the CS.

And, I can't believe I almost forgot about this, what about Gungnir? It is the javelin wielded by Odin, and yet Odin is seen wielding a completely different polearm, which he calls Gungnir. (In Square-Enix's defense though, they did make the relic weapons before they planned on making Odin a monster. And while it is not called Gungnir directly, they are names the polearm was also known by.)

All in all, if they need to make a loophole around lore, they do.