PS2 Limitations: What are Rumors, What is Truth?

[Gwynplaine]

Ever since the last update triggered a glitch in the PS2 to react as though the HDD was full, rumors and speculation about its limitations have flared up. Some limitations like the auto translate memory has been acknowledge by Square, but otherwise it's difficult for any casual player to tell what is true or just a rumor. I wasn't sure where to put this, I'm addressing it like a Twitter question but I don't know if any forum reps will be interested in suggesting answers.

Here are the most common rumors I hear players talk about:

Rumor 1-The PS2 HDD capacity is nearly full. Or, the maximum partition space a single PS2 HDD game can use up is 8GB which FFXI is nearing. The partition limit sounds like it could be realistic. If it were I don't know how much trouble it could be to expand further or if it's possible. If partition space isn't an issue then I doubt HDD space really is an issue.

Rumor 2-There's a hard coded limit built into FFXI on how many zones the game can index. This sounds unlikely to me and I've never seen any solid info.

Rumor 3-A large population of Japanese players still use the PS2 for playing FFXI. Was this ever, or is it now still true? Something you hear a lot and it feels possible, but no real solid info.

Hopefully this at least helps communicate the popular gossip players are passing around. I'd appreciate any helpful info that could be provided.

[rog]

#1 is true, but can be changed.

#2 is also true, but unless there is not even a single free byte left in ram, can also be changed.

#3 was definitely true in the past, and probably still is, but not 100% sure.

edit: apparently #2 has already been fixed.

[Dsherman]

Here is my own rumor (unconfirmed) about that glitch that said the PS2 HDD was full on the Update that occurred December 6,2010........ SE Botched something on the preliminary update they made available on November 30.

There was no Server downtime on November 30. So people already running the game were not forced to exit and receive the November 30 update.

It is my belief that anyone that just kept the game running the whole time, plus anyone that just simply didn't try to play FFXI from November 30 until December 6 had no problem with the December 6 update. Those of use that did receieve the November 30 update got that error and had to do the "Clean Install" to get the December 6 update to work.

If this were true, SE probably overlaid the bad data as they set up the December 6 update..all before anyone knew there was a problem.

I have received NO confirmation of this from SE.... it is only my own personal experience. But it is plausable.

[Delsus]

Here is my own rumor (unconfirmed) about that glitch that said the PS2 HDD was full on the Update that occurred December 6,2010........ SE Botched something on the preliminary update they made available on November 30.

There was no Server downtime on November 30. So people already running the game were not forced to exit and receive the November 30 update.

It is my belief that anyone that just kept the game running the whole time, plus anyone that just simply didn't try to play FFXI from November 30 until December 6 had no problem with the December 6 update. Those of use that did receieve the November 30 update got that error and had to do the "Clean Install" to get the December 6 update to work.

If this were true, SE probably overlaid the bad data as they set up the December 6 update..all before anyone knew there was a problem.

I have received NO confirmation of this from SE.... it is only my own personal experience. But it is plausable.

The only way this would be possible is if PC users also downloaded the bad data, a prelimenery update adds DATs but they sit inactive until an activation code is added to them so playing the game without these DATs should cause no issues.

About the rumors, I beleave the issue with the PS2 hard drive is that the ffxi partition is the issue, which is why SE decided to change it so that it deleted the old DATs before installing the others, this action by SE proves that the ffxi partition is the issue here.

There isnt a limit of zones in ffxi, the limit is in the PS2's RAM, it only has 32MB which is pathetic for todays standards, all they could do is try to make a type of page filing to get round this problem, but I dont know how easy that would be.

however I cant say the exact numbers of japanese playing on the PS2 but as far as I beleve is that the Japanese prefer to play on consoles rather than PC which would enforce the argument that the main japanese playerbase plays on PS2

[Gwynplaine]

Hmm, interesting responses. It would be great if someone at Square could address some of these at some point. Because as you can see from a lot of other threads it turns into hysteria about the PS2 ending the game etc. when they may not know what they're talking about.

I'm not sure about that "bad data" notion. The way Square made it sound was like the method PS2 was downloading new updates made it think like it was using up/downloading twice the amount of stuff it really was. So it acted like it was full.

[Kaosis]

It's kinda funny and strange that PS2 is still considered so strictly. If any player now were to try to play FFXI on PS2 they can't. The only currently in use model is thin and has no HDD. The PS2 game is also very hard to find if at all. And PS3 doesnt support PS2 games anymore and it is not on PSN. If they were to drop support for PS2 and make it downloadable for PSN in some fashion then PS2 limitations will be no more. Might become 360 limitations afterwards :P

[Futan]

[...]

#2 is also true, but unless there is not even a single free byte left in ram, can also be changed.

[...]

edit: apparently #2 has already been fixed.

Kind of curious where you got the source code to know that the supposed area limit is hard coded? Hard coded, of course, meaning it's in the source code opposed to an external .DAT. And that's something that would only need to be loaded into memory upon changing zones, while a bunch of other much more memory intensive things are being unloaded from memory, so there should be no issue with memory that causes an area limit.

[Lilsanchez]

They did fix it to an extend. Earlier SE let the PS2 house a bunch of junk files that where completely unessisary anymore. Just remove all of them and you probably instantly have at least a gig of freespace. They made it so it gets rid of the junk files now dont it?

In any case, I really hate how they are limiting the PCs gameplay because of the PS2. They really should make different installments of the gamen for PS2 and other systems. Might even persuade PS2 players to move away from the dark ages of PS2.

[bungiefan]

It's kinda funny and strange that PS2 is still considered so strictly. If any player now were to try to play FFXI on PS2 they can't. The only currently in use model is thin and has no HDD. The PS2 game is also very hard to find if at all. And PS3 doesnt support PS2 games anymore and it is not on PSN. If they were to drop support for PS2 and make it downloadable for PSN in some fashion then PS2 limitations will be no more. Might become 360 limitations afterwards :P

PS2 FFXI and the HDD are still in print in Japan, as are non-slim PS2s last time I checked the Japanese PlayStation.com store. Compatible PS3s are globally discontinued though.

Japan had a lot of HDD support in games, and they got the HDD in 2001. Sony of Japan couldn't just discontinue it, especially with most Japanese online games charging a monthly fee on PS2. Nobunaga's Ambition Online, Final Fantasy XI, Front Mission Online, Net de Bomberman, Minna no Golf Online, both Resident Evil Outbreaks, and probably a few games I'm missing required the HDD (Resident Evil Outbreak merely used the HDD if present and let you join games where others were using the HDD), and all had a monthly fee to play in Japan.

Meanwhile, SCEA stripped out HDD support from a bunch of games that got brought over, and delayed the HDD release until 2004, only to discontinue it a few months later, because there wasn't a lot of pressure here from games requiring it.

The game launched on PS2 in Japan, with a PC version being released 6+ months later, and the PS2 version has been constantly in print in Japan, with yearly collections on disc for PS2 until at least 2008. It's always been easy for them to get it.

EDIT: So I checked for a link to provide, and I guess they finally stopped selling model 50000 non-slims in Japan, and the HDD is no longer listed on the Japanese site for order. At least I can't find it with the current layout. Still, it took them much longer to do so. I was able to order one after WotG released.

http://www.jpbutton.com/?page_id=3113

Elmer, the guy who runs that site, lives in Japan. The HDD and compatible PS2s were still on shelves new in 2009 there. The information he collected then said ~30% of JP players were on PS2 then.

[Zackan]

So thats the reason why its so hard to drop ps2.

Aside from the fact that the japanese dont want it dropped.. its because this is a PS2 game, ported over to the PC and 360

By dropping the ps2 they are gonna drop the Core design of the game.

[rog]

Kind of curious where you got the source code to know that the supposed area limit is hard coded? Hard coded, of course, meaning it's in the source code opposed to an external .DAT. And that's something that would only need to be loaded into memory upon changing zones, while a bunch of other much more memory intensive things are being unloaded from memory, so there should be no issue with memory that causes an area limit.
Check the memory? Your current area was stored in a 1 byte variable, which limits it to 255 possible values. According to someone in another thread this was changed recently, so the new the cap would be 65535, which obviously will never be reaches.

And no, it can't just be checked when zoning. It needs to constantly be in memory, just like your x,y,z position.

[Gwynplaine]

According to someone in another thread this was changed recently, so the new the cap would be 65535, which obviously will never be reaches.


What is the other thread or reference you're talking about? Is it on this forum or somewhere else?

[rog]

What is the other thread or reference you're talking about? Is it on this forum or somewhere else?
On here. Not sure what thread it was. May have been deleted even, not sure.

[Firesped]

imo, I think the solution is to port the game to the ps3 with a native client that uses the same .dat files. And if that is done, can the "code" be expanded or fixed from there? Which brings up the questions. How hard is this to do? How much will this cost to do it? Are the FFXI players willing to buy the ps3 version to pay for these costs?

The PC version has proved that the design of the game can be pushed graphically past what was done on the ps2. I have had friends watch me play and say that this game looks awesome.

The design and background of Vana'diel seems that it has many more areas that can be opened for future expansion but it saddens me that this would be cut back by ps2 HDD limitations.

I hope this this post fits with this topic.

[Yarly]

Do people think that FFXI will magically be super pretty/optimized and *** like newer games if PS2 support is dropped?

[rog]

Do people think that FFXI will magically be super pretty/optimized and *** like newer games if PS2 support is dropped?
I'd settle for 100+ inventory slots.

[Nathos]

Well if PS2 were dropped, we could maybe have an actual expansion with new zones, art, story, graphical engine upgrade, auto-translate update, and so on.

Hard to do tho due a lot of Japanese ppl still play on PS2 and other ppl around the globe. They would have to do something to convince ppl to move to new systems, like a PS3 downloaded version or even some type of discount with Sony on PS3 or something.

[rog]

Well if PS2 were dropped, we could maybe have an actual expansion with new zones, art, story, graphical engine upgrade, auto-translate update, and so on.

Hard to do tho due a lot of Japanese ppl still play on PS2 and other ppl around the globe. They would have to do something to convince ppl to move to new systems, like a PS3 downloaded version or even some type of discount with Sony on PS3 or something.Auto translate is the only one of those that are being held back by the ps2.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Dropping support for the PS2 is a red herring.

Final Fantasy XI is first and foremost a PS2 game, it was written for that platform first. And when it came to other platforms, the game wasn't rewritten from the ground up, but was instead ported to the PC (and from the PC to the Xbox 360). No matter what you're playing FFXI on, everything under the hood of the game, from mechanics to graphics, is at its core PS2 code. Simply disallowing PS2 hardware will not change the PS2 legacy for PC and 360 players.

So, really, what you're asking for is one of two options:


A kludge fix, on top of a kludge, on top of another kludge, all onto a system of code already being held together by liberal amounts of duck tape and chewing gum. You're talking about a game written for the PlayStation 2 and then ported to Windows 98. At best, solutions won't be as elegant as you would prefer. Realistically, there will be new problems caused in the name of "trade-offs," and the "solution" may be worse than the problem.


A total rewrite of the code base from the ground up, a "Final Fantasy XI All-Stars" or "Final Fantasy XI: The Wiley Wars." It involves almost as much work as making a new game entirely. It involves almost as much money as making a new game entirely. And this for a game that has a declining player base, in spite of a price tag as low as $10 (or $5 digital download)? Even if the publisher in question weren't hemorrhaging cash on Final Fantasy XIV, Adam Smith would have words for you.

Final Fantasy XI is almost a decade old. It's showing its age. Continued support of the PS2 isn't your problem, the passage of nine years is your problem. And unless you have a flux capacitor lying about, there is no fix for that, not even if you scapegoat PS2 players.

"If only id would drop support for DOS, Doom II would look and play like Halo!" It doesn't work that way.

[rog]

Of course. No one expects the game to be rewritten like that. But it would solve the problem of being limited to 32mb of ram.

[Ethereal]

So the ps2 is holding us all back for new skins and huge new expansions with all new zones an new jobs. The game will eventually die if they stay going the way they are.(keeping everyone on same playing ground as ps2) SE now has a new dedicated team to XI, so that would lead me to believe they want to keep going with it. So what about the idea of having 2 versions of xi, one with the original servers for people that refuse to leave the ps2. These servers will continue on getting reskins and no new zones or jobs. (Maybe they can use the old servers that are being migrated)

Now there will also be new servers for pc/xbox/ps3 people to have the option to migrate to in order to enjoy new content. Now this may require another dedicated team to the ps2 people but it keeps everyone happy and playing. Maybe the ps2 people will see how well the game advanced and how fun it looks and decide to migrate to the newer systems.

[Gwynplaine]

So the ps2 is holding us all back for new skins and huge new expansions with all new zones an new jobs.

Not so far as we know, the only true limit acknowledged by Square so far has been for the auto translator. The rest seems unlikely. And as for jobs the only thing holding new jobs back is most likely the sheer difficulty of pointless redundancy at this point. But I really didn't want to turn this thread into an anti-PS2/new jobs discussion. Some interesting and useful stuff so far though.

[Antipika]

So the ps2 is holding us all back for new skins and huge new expansions with all new zones an new jobs. The game will eventually die if they stay going the way they are.(keeping everyone on same playing ground as ps2) SE now has a new dedicated team to XI, so that would lead me to believe they want to keep going with it. So what about the idea of having 2 versions of xi, one with the original servers for people that refuse to leave the ps2. These servers will continue on getting reskins and no new zones or jobs. (Maybe they can use the old servers that are being migrated)

Now there will also be new servers for pc/xbox/ps3 people to have the option to migrate to in order to enjoy new content. Now this may require another dedicated team to the ps2 people but it keeps everyone happy and playing. Maybe the ps2 people will see how well the game advanced and how fun it looks and decide to migrate to the newer systems.

That is just a terrible policy towards customers. You can't tell someone who purchased the game on PS2 : Ok so you'll enjoy a low tier version of the game, while your monthly fee will go toward the development of new content for PC/X360 users.

That is just completely wrong. Especially when PS2 users are the most loyal ones.
---
Regarding the thread initial topic, asking "What is the truth" doesn't make much sense. If something isn't confirmed by SE, then we cannot be completely sure. And if anyone is giving precise facts that weren't released by SE it would mean either :

- Information were leaked from internal sources (Sony / SE / Microsoft etc.). Publishing them wouldn't be allowed.
- You have reverse engineered the game, which is a violation of the User Agreement.

At best what we can do is guess and then we fall into the "rumors" category.

[Rezeak]

The only potential issue with the ps2 is storage space thats it lol and even then i'm sure there work arounds like an option to uninstall old/unused content maybe who knows.

The main reason that there isn't gonna be another big expansion has nothing to do with ps2 limitations it has to do with a lesser player base meaning newer content has a smaller budget so old content being revamped or reused is the best way to get a large amount of content for a small price.

There was no zone cap to begin with they used 1 byte of data for the reference for each zone and once there reach the limit they just remade it so that it used 2 bytes instead or so i've read.

The problem with auto translate and items is probably more to do with them being hard wired into the game commands in such a way they can't be altered because it's prolly coded in such a way u'd need to probably debug the entire game or something along those lines or a ram issue like rog said.

Honestly theres no real issue with items anymore since locker, satchel and sack and the addition of the porter moogle and Auto translate honestly it does what it could potentially do anyway no amount of expansion on it will allow me to chat to other language more than it does already there some optimizing for SE to do on useless text like controller buttons and such.

At the end of the day the Dev team should really just comment on the questions asked so we can just leave this pointless discussion.

Either way do u really Squareenix will recode FFXI because it will take money and it can only come from what we spend on the game atm which is used for major updates which would mean we'd choose a year without any real update where even more pple will just give up on FFXI for a new FFXI which would need to be resold and compete against FFXIV?

And even if they did drop ps2 they'd prolly just say programming,xbox360,xp limitations next.

[rog]

And even if they did drop ps2 they'd prolly just say programming,xbox360,xp limitations next. And if they did, we'd know they're lying.

[Rezeak]

Well we don't know how they did the 360 port so it could have the same or similar limitations to the ps2

[Ethereal]

That's why implementing something for both parties keeps everyone happy. I really don't see how that's unfair at all, could even adjust monthly fees if they feel the difference is worth a change. If you want to refer to the same type of updates we get now as a lower tier version of ffxi thats up to you...but i think unless we get some real new content I can see everyone dropping out eventually. Abyssea/reskinned zones was a nice addition with the new mobs and superpowered characters, but I already see people getting bored of it.

I read that the WOTG expansion pushed PS2 very close to it's limit, which is why we havent seen anything all new since. All it is, re-skins and tweaks to old content to make it seem like new stuff.

I'm not completely in this thread to bash on the ps2, I have a ps2 version (mainly for fishing lol) and pc myself... but like I said, if we did hit a cap for real new content because of the ps2, well I think something needs to be done about that, some sort of compromise.

Now this is an opinion, but for MMPORGs, I think they should evolve with technology. Expansions after expansions, the amount of disk space itself continues to grow. I'm sure SE wants to add stuff, and has so many ideas, but they are scratching their heads trying to come up with a way to implement it in a way where ps2 can handle it. I never really agreed with playing MMPORGs on a console anyway...anything that is typically played for very long periods of time per day should probably be done on a PC to be honest. I have 2 friends that had XI on ps2 and when their playstations died, they couldn't seem to get their hands on the fat ones for hard drives, only the slim ones. So I mean, it's an evolving ongoing game being played with a dead technology.

[Juri_Licious]

Square Enix do this.

1. Drop PS2 Support

2. Focus on updates that were not capable before due to 32 MB of Ram, PS2.

3. Later with these updates release a new collection with all the content and a release of that on Xbox 360, PC & PS3

-Side note

Apparently you can't even buy the PS2 version of FFXI anymore in America. And it's extremely expensive on ebay.

That's a sign already.

[Cream_Soda]

Create new servers for ps3, xbox 360, PC and allow players if they choose to move there and update the game

Let the ps2 players stay on the current servers.

[slakyak]

Apparently you can't even buy the PS2 version of FFXI anymore in America. And it's extremely expensive on ebay.

That's a sign already.

It's rare/ex in the UK as well. There was a NA ps2 with it pre-loaded on eBay but it wasn't cheap and that's one console over the whole site!!

[Siros]

They will never drop ps2 support due ta the amount of JP players still using it.And not every1 can afford ta just up an buy a new system.Im lucky enough ta live in Japan an cofirm alot of them still use the ps2.Plus being military i am fortunate enough ta afford the other 3 platforms(had the original ps2 still working)so i have it on all 4 platforms.and the game sux ass on 360,it lagspikes everytime u zone into a new zone,and goodluck trying ta do any campain.. lol.The only good thing about FFXI being on 360 is the graphics are better than ps2.Plus how could u alienate all the ps2 players onto their own server?,then i couldnt play with my 2 brothers who play on ps2.That would cause way too many problems for ppl. But SE should release a ps3 version of the game for those who cant get the old ps2 anymore,i know it is hard ta come by now days.I mean seriously,how can u put it on 360 but cant figure it out for ps3?

[Cream_Soda]

Plus how could u alienate all the ps2 players onto their own server?,then i couldnt play with my 2 brothers who play on ps2.

not at all. The new servers would be an option. You wouldn't have to leave if you didn't want to.

[Hotsume]

I think the decision should be made with an official poll.

Make it happen SE.

[Firesped]

ooh a poll! I think the best way for that to be done is to be built into the game and have the moghouse moogle have the option.

Another interesting fact I remember hearing was there was a set max number of attributes all gear could have because of the way the game was coded for the ps2. I heard this at a fan fest from the devs. I think it was 7 but I'm not entirely sure that was the number.

I personally have 2 ps2s with FFXI installed on it and a ps3 with FFXI installed on it. On the ps3, the partition is 13 gb. One of my ps2 is Japanese.

[Gwynplaine]

Yes that's something that Square has said for certain. There's only so many "Lines" or "single stat types" you can put on a piece of gear. For example base stats like DEX INT MND are all one "line". Haste+3 would be one "line". And then elemental resistance would be another. I don't remember what the limit was but it's posted somewhere a while ago. I don't know if that's a PS2 limit, I guess by implication it would be but even so there's only so much info you can put on those item boxes.

[Laraul]

Omigod... THERE ARE NO PS2 limitations regarding this game... The HDD issue has been resolved! And no one here is a PS2 developer...

The idea that the PS2 is limiting the game is ridiculous... compare it too other PS2 games... God of War, FFXII, GT4, Shadow of the Colossus...

[Laraul]

There isnt a limit of zones in ffxi, the limit is in the PS2's RAM, it only has 32MB which is pathetic for todays standards, all they could do is try to make a type of page filing to get round this problem, but I dont know how easy that would be.

What's not pathetic is the 2560bit wide bus the PS2 GPU utilizes... that's 1024 reading, 1024 writing, 512 read or write.

The PS2 is not holding this game back... in anyway what so ever. Rather the aging engine is the issue.

I'm not sure what you'd expect if they did drop PS2 support.

[rog]

What's not pathetic is the 2560bit wide bus the PS2 GPU utilizes... that's 1024 reading, 1024 writing, 512 read or write.

The PS2 is not holding this game back... in anyway what so ever. Rather the aging engine is the issue.

I'm not sure what you'd expect if they did drop PS2 support.
You realize the ps2 has a total of 32 mb of ram, right? The gpu/cpu obviously aren't holding it back at all.

[Gwynplaine]

The only real rumor at this point seems to be this 8GB partition accusation. If it turns out that's not true then I don't see any real explicit way the PS2 is holding back new developments in the game.

[Laraul]

It's 10 gigabytes...12 Gigabytes for TetraMaster + PlayOnline + FFXI. A full install of FFXI on the PS2 still likely uses less 8GB once installed. Leaving 2GB for storing updates temporarily when they in the process of being downloaded. It's very likely that unexpected issue was caused by duplicate files that weren't properly removed after installations of updates. In any case this issue has been fixed.

[Vraelia]

If I remember correctly, in a PoL Update, SE took out Tetra Master. It is no longer affecting anything. All that is currently present is PlayOnline, and FFXI. TO my knowledge, anyways.

[Gwynplaine]

It would be cool if a PS2 user and an Xbox owner could post here giving testimony as to how much space FFXI takes up on their HD.

Right now the entire Playonline folder on my PC which contains all FFXI files is at 10.8 GB. It's probably a little less with pics taken in game etc.

So as of right now with all expansion and addons how much space does FFXI occupy on PS2 and Xbox?

[Ragmar]

It would be cool if a PS2 user and an Xbox owner could post here giving testimony as to how much space FFXI takes up on their HD.

Right now the entire Playonline folder on my PC which contains all FFXI files is at 10.8 GB. It's probably a little less with pics taken in game etc.

So as of right now with all expansion and addons how much space does FFXI occupy on PS2 and Xbox?

PS2 player since 04~
HDD Capacity: 38,144 MB
Free Space 24,448 MB

All expansions. No costomizations just the same out of the box package as every other PS2 supported FFXI player.

[Laraul]

Tetramaster is still installed (in a separate partition). It has no influence on the FFXI install.

Stop blaming PS2 players...

Top 10 Ways to Know You're a PC Snob (http://www.gamespy.com/articles/780/780989p1.html) from 2007...

The 32MB of RAM has no real impact. The PS1 had 2MB of RAM.

And FFXI for the PC Recommend 256MB of RAM. Eight times more that the PS2. So you could assume the PS2 is much more efficient with memory. So obviously the problem is the PC! It's holding the game back! OMIGOD! KILL PC VERSION! Blah blah blah...

No one can prove anything here. It's mindless speculation.

[rog]

Tetramaster is still installed (in a separate partition). It has no influence on the FFXI install.

Stop blaming PS2 players...

Top 10 Ways to Know You're a PC Snob (http://www.gamespy.com/articles/780/780989p1.html) from 2007...

The 32MB of RAM has no real impact. The PS1 had 2MB of RAM.

And FFXI for the PC Recommend 256MB of RAM. Eight times more that the PS2. So you could assume the PS2 is much more efficient with memory. So obviously the problem is the PC! It's holding the game back! OMIGOD! KILL PC VERSION! Blah blah blah...

No one can prove anything here. It's mindless speculation.[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

256 mb of ram is recommended because a computer is never only running one program. ffxi will never actually use 256mb of ram.

[Gwynplaine]

PS2 player since 04~
HDD Capacity: 38,144 MB
Free Space 24,448 MB

All expansions. No costomizations just the same out of the box package as every other PS2 supported FFXI player.

Ok that's interesting. So aside from a possible partition issue or something, there's at least 24 gigs remaining so far.

[bishop]

Omigod... THERE ARE NO PS2 limitations regarding this game... The HDD issue has been resolved! And no one here is a PS2 developer...

The idea that the PS2 is limiting the game is ridiculous.

Yeah those reskins of zones and equipment in the game really have me convinced of that. Oh wait I'm getting trolled.

[rog]

Yeah those reskins of zones and equipment in the game really have me convinced of that. Oh wait I'm getting trolled.
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] They reskin zones/gear repeatedly because it's very easy for them to do so, very quickly, costing very little. It has nothing to do with the ps2. Nothing. At all. Reskinning gear/zones requires exactly the same space/memory as brand new zones/gear. It allows them to push out a lot of new content without much effort.

[FrankReynolds]

I have the PS2 version, 360 and PC. the graphics / play on PS2 are crap compared to PC/360. Blame it on whatever you want, but i doubt its like that because the PS2 is too powerful.

I think the best outcome here would be if SE recoded the game allowing for expansion of areas gear etc, while still allowing a low detail setting that would run on PS2. I'm sure they could continue the stats like "major" & "Superior" that they use in abbysea to overcome the line limitation on gear etc. I have no clue what specific limitations Coding for PS2 Implies, But I Know that in today's world there is a lot that can be done to compress files etc.

[bishop]

It allows them to push out a lot of new content without much effort.

So the reskins isn't just a work around the ps2 limitations, rather it's just SE being cheap and lazy? Gotcha.

[rog]

So the reskins isn't just a work around the ps2 limitations, rather it's just SE being cheap and lazy? Gotcha.
If that's how you want to look at it, yes. You could also look at it as them trying to get more content out, in a shorter period of time, while working within their budget. Up to you.

It may be seem boring looking at the same zones, and gear we've seen for 8 years now, but would you rather have 3 original abyssea zones, or 9 reskinned zones? Would you rather have 300 pieces of reskinned gear, or 50 pieces with original models?

[Kailea_Nagisa]

wow lol "there are no PS2 limitations" is this what we are going with now?......

The PS2's RAM is one limitation
PS2 HDD is another in a way (even though there is still plenty of space)
The graphics chip and CPU are again limitations

really the only big limitation is the RAM though, the GPU would only matter if graphics where enhanced, and CPU for the same reason.

But the PS2 RAM is the main reason why our inventory and MH and all our other storage is maxed at 80

[Juri_Licious]

Someone should make a petition for them to remove PS2 support so they can focus on way better updates.

And for the people who can't help there fanboysim of not being able to play on a Sony related system.

Eventually much later on when things get updated, make a new collection and also release that collection on PS3.

But regardless, even if there isn't a PS3 version for this game ever. They need to remove PS2 support, it's holding the game back to it's true potential.

Just take a look at the PS2 version of Phantasy Star Universe, servers = dead. Step out of last gen and enter this gen.

[rog]

PS2 HDD is another in a way (even though there is still plenty of space)
The graphics chip and CPU are again limitations

really the only big limitation is the RAM though, the GPU would only matter if graphics where enhanced, and CPU for the same reason.Neither of these matter. The only working ps2s will be in museums by the time ffxi is large enough to fill 40 gb. And the gpu/cpu are again, not a limitation. They are plenty powerful enough to get the job done, and then some. The graphics do not need to be the same on the ps2 as they are for other systems. For example, they are not even close to the same right now. You can't even read a characters name on the ps2 unless you're right next to them, meanwhile you can see them clearly from 50' away on a pc.

The ONLY limitation imposed by the ps2 is it's 32mb of ram. That's it. Nothing else.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Someone should make a petition for them to remove PS2 support so they can focus on way better updates.

And for the people who can't help there fanboysim of not being able to play on a Sony related system.

Eventually much later on when things get updated, make a new collection and also release that collection on PS3.

But regardless, even if there isn't a PS3 version for this game ever. They need to remove PS2 support, it's holding the game back to it's true potential.

Just take a look at the PS2 version of Phantasy Star Universe, servers = dead. Step out of last gen and enter this gen.

Can not drop PS2, the player base for it is to large, and as for PSU.... that game died for other reasons then being on PS2 -.-

PSU not being world wide is what killed it over here in the states, PS2/PC died, 360 is still alive only because it is some what world wide. If PSU was PS2/PC/360 combined and world wide, it would still be going.

[bishop]

It may be seem boring looking at the same zones, and gear we've seen for 8 years now, but would you rather have 3 original abyssea zones, or 9 reskinned zones? Would you rather have 300 pieces of reskinned gear, or 50 pieces with original models?

I'd rather go with new original content altogether. But I guess sucks for me, and whoever else wants it because of these budget issues.

[Coldbrand]

Yeah I'll take the originals. For the love of god drop this 11 year old system already.

[JagerForrester]

A question has been bugging me. If all the PS2 players left or changed platforms to where the PS2 no longer needed to be supported, would removing the PS2 from the game be possible? Or are we stuck with PS2 limitations as long as this game shall live?

[rog]

A question has been bugging me. If all the PS2 players left or changed platforms to where the PS2 no longer needed to be supported, would removing the PS2 from the game be possible? Or are we stuck with PS2 limitations as long as this game shall live?
Nah, once the ps2 players move on, the only limitations that would remain would be their budget.

[NightDagger]

I originally started playing FFXI on PS2. I took a 3 year break back in 2008 & have just returned a month or so ago. I initially started playing the game again on my old PS2 (original PS2 1st release NA). After only 1 day i was like WTF the graphics are less then pathetic. I can not for the life of me understand how i played the game before & thought it was soooo amazing. I had to go out & buy a 360 just so i could play FFXI again. (I own a Slim PS3) Once i got the "Ultimate Collection" installed and started the game up I was Then amazed with the game again. But either i am to use to HD t.v/Games now or they have really been slacking with keeping the PS2 up & removed some of the graphics files in order to make room for the newer add-ons.

NightDagger
Server - Lakshmi

[JagerForrester]

Nah, once the ps2 players move on, the only limitations that would remain would be their budget.

So, let's brainstorm some ways to get the current PS2 players to change platforms.

...

You guys got pitchforks?

[Juri_Licious]

So, let's brainstorm some ways to get the current PS2 players to change platforms.

...

You guys got pitchforks?

I have some from the Halloween event.

[RAIST]

A question has been bugging me. If all the PS2 players left or changed platforms to where the PS2 no longer needed to be supported, would removing the PS2 from the game be possible? Or are we stuck with PS2 limitations as long as this game shall live?

There might still be some limits present in the PC version, since it was kind of just a wrapper built around the PS2 coding so it could run on the PC (in other words, the PC is kind of an emulated version of the PS2). So the PC version would likely need some rehashing to get rid of some of the legacy PS2 crud that's still in there...so it would take a while for them to get it out. On the upside though, with a new shell they could finally get away from the DX8 restrictions and code it for DX9 and actually let our new graphics cards enhance it some.

Would be nice...but not gonna hold out much hope for it anytime soon. My old v5 PS2 is still chugging along just fine...was tinkering with FF12 just now from the hard drive. As long as they are still working, peeps will still play on them I guess.

Raist

[slakyak]

Is it as easy as just binning the PS2 and cranking the graphics up?? I get the stuff about new content but I remember SE saying that FFVII with a new set of graphics would have taken longer than FFXIII to develop!

I thinks it's all Sony's fault for no supporting the PS2 games on the newer versions of the PS3 (especially when the PSX discs work!!). It's a big deal to buy a console that you can't play any of the games you've racked up over the years on. I bet there's a few of the people playing on PS2 have a PS3 in the lounge.

That said I don't think there will ever be an official release for PS3 cos of the effect on FFXIV sales, add to that the fact that they'd loose a fair number of subs if they canned the PS2 and I think that you'll see them milking the last drop out of the current systems before they even start looking at dropping anyone. Especially now they have bought some time with the HDD issue.

[Morlen]

i remember starting on ps2 years ago
i for one dont care much for LeeT graphics, it was neat, fun
only real big issue i had was lag in promies(when it was done with 18 lol) and walking through jueno, or dynamis

but for the most part, i rreally miss playing it on ps2, as opposed to my laptop, which the specs far outweigh ps2 specs
but meh, idc, let SE do whatever it wants for ps2, ill still be here, and ill glady fight alongside anyone who's on a ps2
thats a surefire way im gonna know they know what they doin, been on ps2 for that long? yea, they a veteran of the world. id play on my ps2, except it fell off the table and broke years ago, long after sony discontinued fat ps2 and HDD

so go ahead all u complainers, SE is after all, a business. and if a portion of their business is on ps2, dont EXPECT them to tell that portion to f*** off and buy another platform because "the majority of our players want better graphics and bigger zones"

have fun with the flameage! ima go get my hotdogs and a stick
and a beer










and another beer









and some marshmellows

[RAIST]

PSX is emulated quite easily in comparison to PS2. They are after all, what... 16-bit programs and ran on a RISC chip I think (don't require much power, and a small subset of instructions probly easily accessible on the chipset for PS3, as part of the alliance that designed the Cell Processor were also behind the PS1 core). The PS2 games don't emulate as well on the PS3 because of the disparity between the core processors in the systems. That is why they originally had a daughterboard in them with the PS2 Emotion chip on them--you esentially had 2 consoles in one with the 1st gen models. IDK if the emulator is still out there on the PSN, but there was one that played like 30% of the PS2 titles just fine via emulation.

In their defense, they TRIED to have full backwards compatability, but it proved to be too unstable and costly to continue with it. There was a limited number of chips stamped out, then they had to go back to the drawing board because of issues with the original design team splitting off and various patent issues and what not--they actually had to cut off parts of the core at one point and come up with a new die for the PS3. In the end, they just couldn't afford to keep the Emotion chip in there and sell it at a price the public would accept.

Raist

[Effilil]

1. if HDD partition size is a problem for the PS2 version, SE might be thinking of a way of expanding that partition size for new content
2. I would love a PS3 version of the game to appear....I've been wanting to see one since PS3 came out...it would end up being just a port of the game over from PS2/pc/hexbox (laugh, the rrod on xbox's are the reason it's been dubbed "hexbox"), but it might bring some new players into the game
3. yes, the game is 9 now, but that doesn't mean it's old and clunky....Nintendo has had amazing sales porting games from 20+ years ago to the DS....including the original Final Fantasy games...and many are still better than most new games IMO
4. (unrelated, but sort of on topic) PSU died for ALOT of reasons that have nothing to do with what platform it was on....Phantasy Star Online is still out there, and has a solid playerbase, even if it is kept alive by the players, and think about how old that game is (it's a Dreamcast game..a system that still gets new games in Japan too)
5. it will take time to implement any changes to the format, and yes, it will cost money....Rome wasn't built in a day, and it sure as heck wasn't built for free
6. I'm sure SE has had debates about all of this at meetings already....they're not thinking of ways to annoy/bore/irritate the players...they're trying to think of ways to keep us playing the game we all love, even if some tasks irritate us because of the repetitious nature of them

PS2 may force limits on what the programmers can do for the game, but in the end, it's the players who really make or break the game
I for one am going to play until the last servers are finally shut down

[Juri_Licious]

-snip

As for RROD, true if you have the older model but my friends have almost all of them had to replace the original PS3 that came out. YLOD + RROD apparently color deaths are on both.

As for Phantasy Star Online in Japan, that's only the Blue Burst version aka the PC version.

It doesn't actually get true games. A company has been making littleish games on it the past two years and that's about it.

And players don't make the content they just pay for it.
Obvious is obvious.

PS: FFXI with out the PS2's shackles will improve the entire game as a whole.

[Megatron]

fan boys will be fan boys.

[svengalis]

This game will never receive a graphics update that's the biggest limitation if you ask me. I would love to see some FF XIV styled graphics running in this game but thanks to PS2 support that won't ever happen.

[Neofire]

As for RROD, true if you have the older model but my friends have almost all of them had to replace the original PS3 that came out. YLOD + RROD apparently color deaths are on both.

As for Phantasy Star Online in Japan, that's only the Blue Burst version aka the PC version.

It doesn't actually get true games. A company has been making littleish games on it the past two years and that's about it.

And players don't make the content they just pay for it.
Obvious is obvious.

PS: FFXI with out the PS2's shackles will improve the entire game as a whole.Fortunately for ps3 owners SE would never turn its back on the user base.

[Seiver]

This game will never receive a graphics update that's the biggest limitation if you ask me. I would love to see some FF XIV styled graphics running in this game but thanks to PS2 support that won't ever happen.

without the PS2, making FFXI look like FFXIV wouldn't be to hard. there using the same races, and a fair few of the same mob types. the only real task would be rebuilding the world as the engine is already there

[rog]

without the PS2, making FFXI look like FFXIV wouldn't be to hard. there using the same races, and a fair few of the same mob types. the only real task would be rebuilding the world as the engine is already there
But they won't. They could do that now. But they don't, because it's not worth it to them. The ps2 does not need to have the same graphics as other systems.

[Morlen]

do ya really need the best of the best graphics? i mean, come on, its not FF1 graphics lol, arent they good enough on ps2?
i dont know anyone who decided to pick up an old game like FF1 and say "The graphics suck on this, im not playing it anymore! SE needs to up the graphics on this now!"

/sarcasm off

[JagerForrester]

You know how we updated from analog to digital television? I can see the FFXI PS2 version become that on a smaller scale. Customers either give in and buy a digital television, or complain, and they got their transmitter boxes for their stubborn old TVs.

[CaelThunderwing]

as for PS2 Limitations they are working w/ 32MB Physical System RAM, a Custom "GS/Graphic Synth" GPU, an MIPS Based Processor "Emotion Engine" @ 766mhz so be glad the game is this far as it is since its the reason its held back , the PS2 is why the game is still rated for 56k (though these days you lag more on dialup .)

[rog]

the PS2 is why the game is still rated for 56kNo...

The ps2 supports 100 mbps.

[Gwynplaine]

They reskin zones/gear repeatedly because it's very easy for them to do so, very quickly, costing very little. It has nothing to do with the ps2. Nothing. At all. Reskinning gear/zones requires exactly the same space/memory as brand new zones/gear. It allows them to push out a lot of new content without much effort.

Yeah, that is a common myth I hear from a lot of players who don't get how zones work.

Reskinning zones, enemies, and armor etc. saves time, not disc space. I'd speculate that the long stretch of reused content has allowed Square to focus on FFXIV. The only way in which they've reused zones without taking up space is by instancing (which isn't the same). All the reskinned iterations we've seen (Dynamis, WotG, Abyssea, etc.) are their OWN individual zone and take up their own disc space. They are not just like the single zone on your HD multiplied ad-hoc and given some mood lighting.


No...
The ps2 supports 100 mbps.

I've wondered about this. If the official download speeds on the box have any legal/official bearing on how much they can require you to download or something.

[CaelThunderwing]

No...

The ps2 supports 100 mbps.

yes and no But because of the 56kHalf of the Network adapter. + at the time Broadban was far more expensive.

[rog]

yes and no But because of the 56kHalf of the Network adapter. + at the time Broadban was far more expensive.Has nothing to do with the ps2. The network adaptor supports up to 100 mbps.

[Gwynplaine]

I've got a question maybe someone here can answer. Why is it the entire Program File "Playonline" folder takes up around 10GB and then windows add/remove programs list shows FFXI and each of its expansions taking up 7.8GB?

If that were true then all of it should take up about 31GB but it doesn't. So what's this 7.8GB figure, is windows making it up? Or is that some kind of pretend maximum the install tells it it may potentially use up? Is it related to this 8GB partition figure in relation to the PS2?

[rog]

I've got a question maybe someone here can answer. Why is it the entire Program File "Playonline" folder takes up around 10GB and then windows add/remove programs list shows FFXI and each of its expansions taking up 7.8GB?

If that were true then all of it should take up about 31GB but it doesn't. So what's this 7.8GB figure, is windows making it up? Or is that some kind of pretend maximum the install tells it it may potentially use up? Is it related to this 8GB partition figure in relation to the PS2?
Windows lies. The ps2 uses different files.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

SE could encourage people to mob thier PS2s, the HDD is the just a standard one, you can actualy use just about any size you want with a slight rewiering.

[rog]

SE could encourage people to mob thier PS2s, the HDD is the just a standard one, you can actualy use just about any size you want with a slight rewiering.
Not sure how sony would feel about that.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

SE could encourage people to mob thier PS2s, the HDD is the just a standard one, you can actualy use just about any size you want with a slight rewiering.

A game company will not encourage it's user base to mod their systems -.- I can tell you a great way to get people to move....

with the next expansion (if there is one) make it for PS3, now take everything up till now and the new expansion and put that on one disk, and release it as the new PS3 FFXI collection. Then sell the new expansion as a seperate disk for PC along with the new collection as another option.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Not sure how sony would feel about that.SE already screwed their relations with Sony, so I don't see the harm.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

SE already screwed their relations with Sony, so I don't see the harm.


it was more of the other way around......... but again it wont happen, SE could get sued over it to be honest

[rog]

SE could get sued over it to be honest
No they can't.

Or i suppose they can, seeing as sony is in the middle of a bullshit case against geohot for his work modding ps3s, but as i said, it's bullshit.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

No they can't.Please, people can get sued for staring these days. Yes they can.

[Nattack]

Please, people can get sued for staring these days. Yes they can.

everyone accepted a user and software agreement when they joined the game, covering SE's booty - and spelling out "someday, all things will come to an end. your account does not belong to you, and we can take it away at any time."

[Zyeriis]

everyone accepted a user and software agreement when they joined the game, covering SE's booty - and spelling out "someday, all things will come to an end. your account does not belong to you, and we can take it away at any time."

I think you took the conversation out of context. They were talking about getting SE to urge ps2 owners to mod their system which would result in some form of lawsuit from Sony.

[RAIST]

they may have had some funky contractural agreement with Sony that went along with the them selling the network adaptor/harddrive/FFXI bundles.. but considering those aren't being sold worldwide by Sony anymore, yet the game IS on other platforms...I'm sure SE has some wiggle room.

Raist

[Kaych]

Assuming that its the PS2 that is holding SE back from creating "new & better" content, I think they should do most of theyr new content on PS3 and PC. That way, the PS2 players can still play FFXI, Zilart, CoP ToAH, WotG and Abyssea. Nothing gets taken away, but if they want new stuff, do as the rest of us. Upgrade your platform^_-

I am not a big WoW fan, but what I do like about it is that they upgrade stuff each expantion-pack. Areas are completly new, monsters, bosses etc. This is what SE should IMO.

The point of this thread was to give facts so that the rumors gets busted once and for all. PLease, if you make a statement, can you have a link or something that confirms what you sayO.o?

And please SE, can you answer some of the questions that has been asked and discussed here?

[Teraniku]

Dropping support for the PS2 is a red herring.



A total rewrite of the code base from the ground up, a "Final Fantasy XI All-Stars" or "Final Fantasy XI: The Wiley Wars." It involves almost as much work as making a new game entirely. It involves almost as much money as making a new game entirely. And this for a game that has a declining player base, in spite of a price tag as low as $10 (or $5 digital download)? Even if the publisher in question weren't hemorrhaging cash on Final Fantasy XIV, Adam Smith would have words for you.




The way to get around this issue is to actually develop a solo FF game that takes place in Vana'diel. Then adapt the code of the solo game to the MMO. Only problem is file compatibility.

[Volkai]

The way to get around this issue is to actually develop a solo FF game that takes place in Vana'diel. Then adapt the code of the solo game to the MMO. Only problem is file compatibility.
That doesn't get around the issue at all. Then they're making TWO games! Also, "adapt the code of the solo game to the MMO"? Do you really think that would be quick and easy to do?

What you're talking about may sound simple, but involves far more work than even rewriting the code to FFXI from the ground up.


The point of this thread was to give facts so that the rumors gets busted once and for all. PLease, if you make a statement, can you have a link or something that confirms what you sayO.o?

And please SE, can you answer some of the questions that has been asked and discussed here?
I second both of these.

[Bigtop]

SE could encourage people to mob thier PS2s, the HDD is the just a standard one, you can actualy use just about any size you want with a slight rewiering.
I am not a computer-whiz at all, but I know my son took his hard drive from his PS2 and somehow used it on his PS3 (its wired to it just double checked ) he plays ffxi just fine has been using PS3 since we bought it for him.

[Yarly]

This thread is the only PS2 related thread that should be in existence.

[Gwynplaine]

I wrote a blog post that discusses why re-skinned content doesn't "save disc space", as the myth goes. Some of you might find it interesting/useful.
http://parchmentpaper.blogspot.com/2011/03/explaining-why-reskinned-graphics-dont.html

[rog]

I wrote a blog post that discusses why re-skinned content doesn't "save disc space", as the myth goes. Some of you might find it interesting/useful.
http://parchmentpaper.blogspot.com/2011/03/explaining-why-reskinned-graphics-dont.html

This just makes natural sense but I think the problem is when people extend this same method to zones. Zones do not work in the same way.That's actually false. They could certainly use the same zone file for multiple zones. However they would have to be identical zones (except npc, mobs, etc), which none are.

[Gwynplaine]

I suppose they could. But they never have, and there's no purpose. That's what instancing is for.

I get your point though. It's not so much a matter of "working that way" as it is more like, it's just now how they're utilized.