Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

[Frost]

I have seen so many threads recently about losing claim on monsters and people 'stealing' pops etc. I am proposing a solution in a new thread, rather than posting this idea in the seven other threads.

First off, let me poison the well here and scorn Square Enix for not exercising a simple concept of:

"The Spirit of the Law"...

When a monster goes unclaimed by ways of a, I will call "faulty" game mechanic, and the GMs take the side of the group that 'steals' the monster, when the party originally fighting it are still in complete control of the monster; is it so hard to exercise the spirit of the law on that? Set a few examples, temp ban some of the more unsavory, dare i say sociopathic, folks playing that thrive on that behavior? I mean it's not specifically stated that you can't do this, but that's not really an excuse...

This is silly kids' stuff you're enabling, Square. Letting these guys wave their fingers extremely close someone's face saying "I'M NOT TOUCHING YOU!" repeatedly... Only the scenario is closer to someone straight up punching another in the face and the assailant saying, "they were in the way of my fist, they should have moved if they didn't want to get hit"...

The simple solution is the leave a monster claimed until all combatants have been defeated.

The next best thing, would be punishing people that exploit a game mechanic for personal gain.


The proposal: Turn the "Call for Help" code into the general claim code.

What I mean by this:


Here's one of several typical scenarios of how claim gets lost:

1) Fighting a monster.
2) Main tank starts to disconnect, can't move away from the monster, can't move the monster.
3) One of two things happen here:
>> a) The tank is forced out of the game and the monster goes unclaimed.
>> b) The tank is forced out of the game, the monster goes unclaimed and all party members are forced to disengage because the current coding makes the disconnecting member drop party before they drop off the server....
4) Sociopathic player/group takes advantage of this and claims the monster, kills it.


Here's what happens when someone calls for help on a monster:

1) Player calls for help.
2) Monster remains in the 'open' status for people to attack it until either:
>> a) Monster is killed.
>> b) Monster kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time.

SO....

Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?

There's many reasons people lose claim:

Disconnects
Taking a melee off the mob, and they disengage after having been the last to act on the monster.
A player dies after being the last to perform an action on the monster.
The monster runs out of range, causing a player to disengage.
A player runs out of range to avoid a devastating ability/spell*.

*Meteor, Astral Flow, and several other things encompass the maximum "stay engaged" range, if you run out of range of them, you are forced to disengage, and you don't have the luxury in most cases to check if you're the last person to take action on the monster, disengage, then run.

It's so easy to say "just don't lose claim". But there's so many situations where 'it just happens'...

The truth is, this should have never been an issue.... but Square has enabled these people who openly steal popped monsters causing this problem to grow rapidly. There's even a saying: "If it's yellow, claim that fellow" because this practice is so accepted...

This problem is tantamount to a burglar saying: "Hey man, if you didn't want your things stolen, you shouldn't have locked them up in your house" and the police agreeing...

Or a guy suing his employer for "Wrongful Termination" after intentionally burning down the office, because there was no rule against it...

Fix that which is broke.

Please.

[Akujima]

"The Spirit of the Law"...

I'm giving you a thumbs up, because you have the guts to say something like this.

[Zatias]

"they were in the way of my fist, they should have moved if they didn't want to get hit"....
rofl I loved this and I agree that NM stealing is wrong, if the alliance fighting it wiped, OK, don't let a pop go to waste. To claim just after it goes yellow because of game mechanics, you sir, are a penis. The claim issue should be fixed if possible!

[Linh]

Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?

I totally agree with this.

[rog]

Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?And if you want to unclaim a mob without dying? Your just sol?


Here's one of several typical scenarios of how claim gets lost:

1) Fighting a monster.
2) Main tank starts to disconnect, can't move away from the monster, can't move the monster.
3) One of two things happen here:
>> a) The tank is forced out of the game and the monster goes unclaimed.
>> b) The tank is forced out of the game, the monster goes unclaimed and all party members are forced to disengage because the current coding makes the disconnecting member drop party before they drop off the server....
4) Sociopathic player/group takes advantage of this and claims the monster, kills it.So you pull hate off the tank, move the mob away from him, and then attack it, so he does not have claim.

It really is not hard to keep claim on mobs, regardless of what happens.

The only "faulty mechanic" here is charm. Everything else works as intended.

[Seriha]

Claim should never be lost unless it's one person acting on multiple mobs or someone pulling pinning crap. Otherwise, the amount of mobs you can keep claimed should be based on your party/alliance size. Giving up claim could then be achieved by your party/alliance leader through another option in the CFH menu.

That's it. There's no defending the current system unless you're someone who likes to steal mobs.

[rog]

or someone pulling pinning crap.

That's it. There's no defending the current system unless you're someone who likes to steal mobs.

But it is ok to steal from anyone who is pinning?

[sruon]

I can't remember the last time I lost claim.

[rog]

I can't remember the last time I lost claim.
I can. It was back at 75, when i was soloing a charybdis. It deaggroed when i was about 30' away, and it was unclaimed for about half a second before i could get to it and hit it with poison.

[Seriha]

Ah, the guy who loves to pin, speed hack, and tells everyone who can't solo something you've claimed to sucks is trying to play the "two wrongs don't make a right" card. We've been over this before on Alla, though. Pinning shouldn't be possible to begin with and SE designing content for (small) parties and enforcing that wish isn't a bad thing. I have no sympathy for those abusing an exploit getting burned in the process of employing it.

[rog]

I don't really pin anything, but ok.

And why shouldn't it be possible? It works in irl, so why not in game? Not to mention it also works in basically ll other games, to varying degrees.

[Seriha]

I must've missed that documentary on national geographic where an animal can take one step to the left and make a predator run a huge circle around a rock.

[rog]

I must've missed that documentary on national geographic where an animal can take one step to the left and make a predator run a huge circle around a rock.
Must have. I used to pin my grandmother on the kitchen table all the time.

[Seriha]

Congrats, you ran from an old woman who didn't wanna kill you. Now when it's someone more serious, they'll push the table at you, push it away/overturn it, climb over it, or start throwing things at you.

[rog]

Congrats, you ran from an old woman who didn't wanna kill you. Now when it's someone more serious, they'll push the table at you, push it away/overturn it, climb over it, or start throwing things at you.
Change table to 5 ton boulder, that is too steep to climb over.

Pinning works fine in irl. Maybe not as well as in ffxi, but it certainly works.

[Linh]

Giving up claim could then be achieved by your party/alliance leader through another option in the CFH menu.

QFT.

Stupid 10 character limit.

Still QFT

[Zatias]

QFT.

Stupid 10 character limit.

Still QFT

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I admit I kinda laughed at this but do you have to be such a smartass? =p

Back on topic(ish) pinning does work irl and ingame. The only reason I would take a pinned mob if it was taking too long for the pinner to kill. Maybe instead of a rage system, there can be a claim time limit, sort of like a battlefield? I know, there are flaws with that idea. Just throwing my opinion out there.

[Alhanelem]

Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?Err.... that happens now, except it's an OR where you have the word AND.

Sorry, the claim system needs no changes. Don't fail at winning, and you won't have a problem. If everyone has been defeated, even if they have reraise, if they take action quickly, then they're using zombie tactics (they're not going to survive and are depending on repeated deaths to get to the end of the fight) which are discouraged.

If you liose, you lose. That's it. If a monster goes unclaimed, it's virtually always because you lost. It's the game's way of saying that.


Giving up claim could then be achieved by your party/alliance leader through another option in the CFH menu.Your party/alliance leader cannot press this button while KO'd- thus a group can even unintentionally monopolize a monster without being able to defeat it.

[Eeek]

Ah, the guy who loves to pin, speed hack, and tells everyone who can't solo something you've claimed to sucks is trying to play the "two wrongs don't make a right" card. We've been over this before on Alla, though. Pinning shouldn't be possible to begin with and SE designing content for (small) parties and enforcing that wish isn't a bad thing. I have no sympathy for those abusing an exploit getting burned in the process of employing it.

Only Alla posters would consider pinning an exploit.

[rog]

Only Alla posters would consider pinning an exploit.
It is an exploit. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded, and wrong.

You might want to invest in a dictionary.

[Eeek]

It is an exploit. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded, and wrong.

You might want to invest in a dictionary.

I don't see pinning as an exploit at all as long as the mob can reach and kill a player who stops doing anything.

Now, trapping the Ironclads and Amhuluk on the cliffs in Abyssea and rendering them helpless? Yeah, that was an exploit.

See also: Wall of Justice.

[rog]

I don't see pinning as an exploit at all as long as the mob can reach and kill a player who stops doing anything.

Now, trapping the Ironclads and Amhuluk on the cliffs in Abyssea and rendering them helpless? Yeah, that was an exploit.

See also: Wall of Justice.You are still exploiting a weakness. It is an exploit just like casting water on tiamat is.

ITT: your wrong.

[Alhanelem]

For the love of all that is holy, SE needs to do start punishing these forum trolls.

[Glamdring]

a. pinning is not an exploit, it's a tactic. Granted, not all jobs can do it effectively, but that's why there are 20 job choices. All you have to do is level a job that can do it.

b. if you "lose claim" you do not necessarily "suck", there's some funkiness with the game hate mechanics that are simply not realistic. If you poison someone and they are still taking damage from it RL they are not gonna stop being pissed at you because you've walked 30 feet away or haven't poisoned them again for 5 seconds. Apparently in Vanadiel they REALLY believe in "turning the other cheek".

c. you will never get people who believe that it is wrong for you to take a mob that they have done the work to obtain (and you have not), claimed, and through some mechanism (death of last player to cause damage, mass charm, etc.) momentarily have go white believe that it is right for you to profit from their efforts by claiming a weakened mob and killing it yourself. You are wasting your efforts by even trying to convince them. Yes I know the rules allow it, RL allows you to travel to other countries to have sex with child prostitutes (or animals) legally, that doesn't make it right, this is a matter of ethics. Taking that mob is unethical. You should be ashamed of yourself for even attempting to take it.

[Alhanelem]

Taking that mob is unethical. You should be ashamed of yourself for even attempting to take it. When the original gorup has zero chance of defeating they mob, no, they shouldnt be ashamed. that mob would just depop and anything it might drop would simply be gone.

However, if I were to be involved in something like this, I would consider inviting people from the group to lot on drops. Either way though, it is better that the mob is actually killed than no one kiling it, the mob depopping, and the pop truly going to waste.

[Glamdring]

When the original gorup has zero chance of defeating they mob, no, they shouldnt be ashamed. that mob would just depop and anything it might drop would simply be gone.

However, if I were to be involved in something like this, I would consider inviting people from the group to lot on drops. Either way though, it is better that the mob is actually killed than no one kiling it, the mob depopping, and the pop truly going to waste.

actually, I believe that the vulture group SHOULD be forced to either wait until the mob is at full strength or it should depop and go to waste. And a mob going white for a second doesn't mean that the popping group has "zero chance of defeating the mob", that's a BS argument people have tried to use to justify stealing it since day one here. Those complaining of the stealing of the mob are still determined to keep fighting and killing it. They may need a player to RR and reengage and kite through weakness, or have a charm wear or whatever, but they are still game or they wouldn't care. The only REAL reason they have "zero chance of defeating the mob" is because it seems some ass-hat stole it while they were trying to reestablish claim on it and won't release it back to the group that actually did the work.

[Seriha]

Your party/alliance leader cannot press this button while KO'd- thus a group can even unintentionally monopolize a monster without being able to defeat it.

Emphasizing the leader keep RR active and use it responsibly is a bit more sensible than the "suck less" mantra floating around justifying the system's current flaws. Besides, some are also too quick to determine when a group has no chance.

Overall, I can understanding not wanting to waste time or stand around with your finger up your butt at a contested mob. Ideally, the better solution would be to further expand on the amount of copies an NM that can be up to encompass all popped mobs much like they recently did with the zone bosses and such. The goal is both minimize the chances to steal and the temptation to.

[rog]

a. pinning is not an exploit, it's a tactic. Granted, not all jobs can do it effectively, but that's why there are 20 job choices. All you have to do is level a job that can do it.
Yes it is. It is ok though, because so is nuking water instead of fire on tiamat, because it is less likely to resist. Pinning exploits poor pathings AI, and nuking water on tiamat exploits his weakness to water. The confusion here is that people associate the word "exploit" with something bad. In fact exploiting something is more often than not, a good thing.

[Capn]

Look! he's standing close to the fence! I'm gonna get him......! oh no! now he stepped back .5 yalms... now I gotta run around this long fence, taking 10 seconds before I can hit him.... ah crap I was almost there and now he's close to the fence again... even though I can see him right there in front of me... I'm gonna run back around the fence!


yea... not an exploit.

but everyone please do continue.. I'm laughing so hard at people rationalizing with the same basic idea that "It's not an exploit, it's taking advantage of a terrain tactic"

[rog]

Look! he's standing close to the fence! I'm gonna get him......! oh no! now he stepped back .5 yalms... now I gotta run around this long fence, taking 10 seconds before I can hit him.... ah crap I was almost there and now he's close to the fence again... even though I can see him right there in front of me... I'm gonna run back around the fence!


yea... not an exploit.

but everyone please do continue.. I'm laughing so hard at people rationalizing with the same basic idea that "It's not an exploit, it's taking advantage of a terrain tactic"Just fyi, not all pinning works that way. It is still an effective strategy even with just a simple rock to kite around. Pinning only became popular (and thus hated) with VNMs, when kaeko found the various spots, such as the ronfaure fence, etc, that worked as you described. However it has been used since the beginning of the game (and earlier, in other games, not to mention since the beginning of time in irl), because even without poor tracking AIs, it works. The time it takes for a mob (or person/animal/whatever) to react is all that is needed to create an advantage.

But yes, it is an exploit, as i explained above.

[Crocker]

And if you want to unclaim a mob without dying? Your just sol?

Eat the death and wipe its only exp, if you know you couldn't handle it you shouldn't of engaged it, what are you trying to do MPK people?

The keeping claim system is broken as been said many times hate is only on 1 person so if they die it goes white and then everyone has to scramble and spam an extra something, anything and everything to reclaim it even if everyone has done a action before the death it still goes unclaimed. With how the system is now its who can solo the best out of the alliance and when they die it unclaims for everyone and that's not right. The monster should stay claimed no matter what until everyone on the hate list is dead even through a charmga but it doesn't so yes this needs to be fixed and should be top priority screw the updates for the year if something game breaking like this isn't fixed.
People that defend its working as intended are the people that steal monsters.




Must have. I used to pin my grandmother on the kitchen table all the time.

Take that out of context and that sounds so wrong... sorry couldn't resist!

[wish12oz]

This would enable people to apoc zombie something forever, and block other people from content. Any system that is added that does not allow stuff to go unclaimed until everyone is dead is a very bad idea simply because it would enable people to block others from being able to do it. Now, if they wanted to add a 10 minute depop timer to every NM inside abyssea, I wouldn't care if they added the claim system you advocate, because that would defeat the ability to hold mobs forever.

[Capn]

Just fyi, not all pinning works that way. It is still an effective strategy even with just a simple rock to kite around. Pinning only became popular (and thus hated) with VNMs, when kaeko found the various spots, such as the ronfaure fence, etc, that worked as you described. However it has been used since the beginning of the game (and earlier, in other games, not to mention since the beginning of time in irl), because even without poor tracking AIs, it works. The time it takes for a mob (or person/animal/whatever) to react is all that is needed to create an advantage.

But yes, it is an exploit, as i explained above.

Right, but pinning and circle kiting are different things. Circle kiting exploits mobs that don't run faster than you (with or without enhanced movement speed items). Pinning is an exploit in the pathing AI.

Although now that I think about it, you're talking about pinning on one side of a rock or object, when you reach the central point between the the mob and the opposite corner. I remember doing this as cor with a blm friend on fortitude many times. while for the most part, I just kept running in a circle since I was solo a lot.

[rog]

Eat the death and wipe its only exp, if you know you couldn't handle it you shouldn't of engaged it, what are you trying to do MPK people?I do not care about exp. I care about being weakened for 5 minutes.


The keeping claim system is broken as been said many times hate is only on 1 person so if they die it goes white and then everyone has to scramble and spam an extra something, anything and everything to reclaim it even if everyone has done a action before the death it still goes unclaimed. With how the system is now its who can solo the best out of the alliance and when they die it unclaims for everyone and that's not right. The monster should stay claimed no matter what until everyone on the hate list is dead even through a charmga but it doesn't so yes this needs to be fixed and should be top priority screw the updates for the year if something game breaking like this isn't fixed.
People that defend its working as intended are the people that steal monsters.Or because we consider the shortcomings of such a change. For example, vnms depop instantly when the hate list is cleared. Do you want the pop to be wasted in such a case? Or would you rather give it up, and let someone else take it?

Take that out of context and that sounds so wrong... sorry couldn't resist!Context? What? That was just a random statement.

[Seriha]

Or they could make dying 3 times after double weakness without unweakening auto-HP you. Forcing 10m despawns is way too harsh.

[rog]

Or they could make dying 3 times after double weakness without unweakening auto-HP you.lol.


Forcing 10m despawns is way too harsh.
What about 30 minutes?

[Seriha]

Depends on the mob. Abyssea's timer alone is enough, though, and I don't think every mob everywhere is being zombie'd. Besides, do what I mentioned earlier and one group taking an inordinate amount of time would be a non-issue unless you're trying to mass AoE brew.

[Glamdring]

lol.


What about 30 minutes?

This is the purpose of the 60 minute rage timer. You may not agree with the time, but this at least has been addressed in SE's judgment.

[Greatguardian]

This is the purpose of the 60 minute rage timer. You may not agree with the time, but this at least has been addressed in SE's judgment.

And the current Claim system is there in order to keep morons from clogging up content.

You may not agree with losing your claim after half your alliance wipes and your mages are too fingersmacking dumb to keep claim properly, but this at least has been addressed in SE's judgment.

[rog]

Abyssea's timer alone is enoughIt takes exactly one person farming time to stay in abyssea forever. Including while that one person is sleeping/working.

[Malacite]

It certainly would help reduce a lot of unnecessary drama. I approve 100%


It's especially frustrating for pet jobs, BST in particular, as sometimes mobs will go yellow while in the process of swapping pets.

[Frost]

There's a massive difference between "Losing claim for a fraction of a second due to one person getting charmed, killed, DC'd, warped, etc etc etc..." and "Your alliance has completely and totally been annihilated". And this thread is discussing the former, and it's a red herring to introduce the latter.

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Speaking of civility, can we make this a discussion?
I like the differing views, even if I don't agree, but some of the back-and-forth here is a little childish. In short, drop the personal attacks please.

[Alhanelem]

And a mob going white for a second doesn't mean that the popping group has "zero chance of defeating the mob" if you wiped, yes, you do have zero chance without zombie tactics and for most jobs except BLU you become useless after dying a second time. It's not a BS excuse, it's normally true.

Someone betting from something is better than no one benefitting from something. now, do not paint me as someone who preys on people who fail to kill NMs. if I see an unclaimed NM and a bunch of bodies on the ground, I will ask them if they're done or not. In most cases they are- If several people have AoA they might zombie it, but outside of that there is rarely a recovery from a full wipe in abyssea, especially given NMs rage after a period of time.

[Frost]

if you wiped, yes, you do have zero chance without zombie tactics and for most jobs except BLU you become useless after dying a second time. It's not a BS excuse, it's normally true.[...]

Again, not talking about wiping here.

[Greatguardian]

There's a massive difference between "Losing claim for a fraction of a second due to one person getting charmed, killed, DC'd, warped, etc etc etc..." and "Your alliance has completely and totally been annihilated". And this thread is discussing the former, and it's a red herring to introduce the latter.

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Speaking of civility, can we make this a discussion?
I like the differing views, even if I don't agree, but some of the back-and-forth here is a little childish. In short, drop the personal attacks please.

It is absolutely not difficult to shift claim to someone who is not in any danger of dying if the person who has sole claim is about to do so, or is about to be charmed. This is the point for a lot of people. Understanding how systems work and acting on that understanding is an important part of the game. The claim system is just another one of those systems. Its workings are very simple and predictable. The opus is on the player to take the appropriate action when a charm, death, or disengage happens or is imminent.

[Alhanelem]

There's a massive difference between "Losing claim for a fraction of a second due to one person getting charmed, killed, DC'd, warped, etc etc etc..." and "Your alliance has completely and totally been annihilated".
I agree, this thread is not offering a good solution to the problem though.


I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Speaking of civility, can we make this a discussion?
I like the differing views, even if I don't agree, but some of the back-and-forth here is a little childish. In short, drop the personal attacks please.
Both a fighting group and a waiting group should be having some consideration for each other. Zombie behavior may or may not work (it usually doesn't) and takes a long time. Especially if the area is crowded, you are wasting other people's time on the off chance that if you die enough times, you might be able to get it killed. In this case, the fighting group really should step aside for the waiting group. At the same time, the waiting group should be polite and civil, and either offer to help or otherwise work out a solution with the first group. If one or the other is being uncooperative though, there is little room for choice. No one likes waiting around for what might be a vain attempt (An LS I was in missed a Tiamat pull once and we sat there for over 7 hours while the group that claimed was constantly dying and doing little damage), and there are rules in the code of conduct that govern this. If a GM determines that a group is taking an unreasonable amount of time or has not made much/any progress, they will give another group the green light to go ahead and take it.

[Frost]

It is absolutely not difficult to shift claim to someone who is not in any danger of dying if the person who has sole claim is about to do so, or is about to be charmed. This is the point for a lot of people. Understanding how systems work and acting on that understanding is an important part of the game. The claim system is just another one of those systems. Its workings are very simple and predictable. The opus is on the player to take the appropriate action when a charm, death, or disengage happens or is imminent.

I understand that you're on the side of the argument on the bias that "If it's in the game this way, then it's intentional" or "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But what is the practical application of having a monster go unclaimed when someone disconnects? Or when one person out of eighteen dies to an instant death move? Or a ranger Weaponskills and the mob is kited out of range? Etc.

When a group of people is in full control of a mob, and it goes unclaimed, that's an error.

This game is you against the environment the game was developed under the premise of teamwork; with the players on one side of the line, and the monster hoardes etc, on the other. At no point was the game ever intended to be players stealing from one another. Players aren't an "unfortunate environmental circumstance"... Defending a glitch as an intended dynamic when it goes contrary to the general theme and presentation of a game is faulty thinking.

It's like playing poker and somehow getting 2 Ace of Spades in your hand from a fresh deck. You don't just 'keep going' and revel in your luck... You stop, fix the error, and move on.

[Frost]

[...]If a GM determines that a group is taking an unreasonable amount of time or has not made much/any progress, they will give another group the green light to go ahead and take it.

There you go, you solved your side of the debate on zombie'ing. Which is not the problem being presented in this thread.

As for what's actually being presented, leaving the monster claimed to the group until everyone is dead is a good solution. If they take long enough to rage the mob then that solution is enacted forcefully on the players.

[rog]

if you wiped, yes, you do have zero chance without zombie tactics and for most jobs except BLU you become useless after dying a second time. It's not a BS excuse, it's normally true.
Kiting is hard. I've recovered from a death while soloing seiryu, without dying at all (except for the first death). It really is not hard to recover from a wipe without zombying.

[Alhanelem]

As for what's actually being presented, leaving the monster claimed to the group until everyone is dead is a good solution. If they take long enough to rage the mob then that solution is enacted forcefully on the players. It's not a good solution because you can have people alive in the alliance but not able to fight. As long as someone has Atma of the Apocalypse, you can effectively keep an NM locked down forever (until someone invokes a GM to make you give it up for taking too long)

[Greatguardian]

I understand that you're on the side of the argument on the bias that "If it's in the game this way, then it's intentional" or "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But what is the practical application of having a monster go unclaimed when someone disconnects? Or when one person out of eighteen dies to an instant death move? Or a ranger Weaponskills and the mob is kited out of range? Etc.

When a group of people is in full control of a mob, and it goes unclaimed, that's an error.

This game is you against the environment the game was developed under the premise of teamwork; with the players on one side of the line, and the monster hoardes etc, on the other. At no point was the game ever intended to be players stealing from one another. Players aren't an "unfortunate environmental circumstance"... Defending a glitch as an intended dynamic when it goes contrary to the general theme and presentation of a game is faulty thinking.

It's like playing poker and somehow getting 2 Ace of Spades in your hand from a fresh deck. You don't just 'keep going' and revel in your luck... You stop, fix the error, and move on.

Having a monster go unclaimed when a person disconnects or dies is simply a side-effect of the much more fundamental rule of claiming. If you disengage the monster, for any reason, while you have sole claim over it, the monster goes white. If you die? You disengage. If you disconnect? You disengage. If you zone? You disengage. If you go out of range? You disengage.

Can it happen that the person with sole claim disconnects and a monster goes white? Yes. Should it ever? Absolutely not. Why? Because characters stay in the game with a red dot for a minimum of 30 seconds after a player has disconnected from the server. That 30 seconds should always be more than sufficient for any other member of the player's party to exert sole claim over the monster. If the disconnecting player is a DD that is attacking the mob (and continuing to automatically do so while disconnecting), move the NM away from said disconnecting DD so that they do not have the opportunity to reassert claim.

Can it happen when a single person in an alliance of 18 dies? Yes. Should it happen? Realistically, no, not unless said person was the only melee engaged on the NM (as auto-attacking a monster is the easiest/fastest way to constantly reassert sole claim). If they were, for some reason, the only melee engaged on the monster, there is still a window in which the 17 mages/others should be reasserting their claim before the monster goes white. This is not an instantaneous process. It is no more difficult than stunning a TP move (in fact, it is easier compared to most TP moves).

You assert that this is a glitch. I assert that everything is working 100% as intended. Alliances never, ever have claim over a monster. One person has claim over a monster at any given time, and the rest of his alliance is able to act on his monster because they are in a party with him. When the player who currently has claim disengages for any reason, claim is in flux for 1-2 seconds. When no one in the player's group acts, claim is forfeit. Once claim is forfeit, anyone in the player's group can reclaim with a single action. As an anti-steal measure, it requires 2 consecutive actions for any outside party to take claim (unless, of course, they were already on the hate list by curing the original party or somesuch).

There is no exploit happening. There is no glitch. The system is working 100% as intended. You forfeit claim when you disengage the monster you have claim over, and no one else on the hate list steps up to reclaim the forfeited claim.

[Akujima]

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Bold part: This is what you actually have to convince the naysayers about. But it will be damn difficult to do so, as their entire philosophy and way of life is based on that one statement. They are "good" only because other people "suck".

[Linh]

This would enable people to apoc zombie something forever60 min rage timer.

Mob stays claimed until everyone in alliance is dead.

Unclaim button through entire alliance's menu (or leader only).

Go do something else if you're not part of the zombie group.

[blowfin]

And the current Claim system is there in order to keep morons from clogging up content.

That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

[Greatguardian]

That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

If the FFXI Claim system survived 9 years of RotZ Kings, I promise you it is not suddenly glitching out in Abyssea. The fault is player error, period.

[blowfin]

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

You're missing my point, it's become more of an issue because players of all types have been jammed together in the same content. No it wasn't as much of an issue before because HNM shells knew how to deal with it and it wasn't exploited on a "knowledgeable player vs. not so knowledgeable player" basis.

I'm not saying it's glitching, you're getting the wrong idea.


It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

I fail to see how that's the case. Competing for claim (for example) on HNM was something that only a handful of the playerbase ever did. Having another group wait for you to finish with the potential there for them to grab your mob if you screw up is something that a large amount of people are only being exposed to for the first time.

Having them know about the claim system is one thing, and I applaud efforts to educate people. Having said that it seems pretty shortsighted to ignore the fact that the details of the claim system are being exposed to many more, and a far broader range of players than they ever have been. Expecting people to be fully educated on the nuances of it is a bit rich really. I'm not sure what i'm saying, maybe that a "suck less" attitude is pretty damn far from helping the problem. Though i'm sure some sections of the playerbase that push that garbage line would gladly keep others in the dark to their own advantage.

[Greatguardian]

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

[blowfin]

Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

[Greatguardian]

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.

[Malacite]

Civility? On the internet?

Surely you jest.

:( (would be nice though)

[Capn]

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

This... a million times this...

I think the problem is, that back in the good old king days... people decided to tell kings to eff off since it was... well... it was kings... lol... now with Abyssea, people have that king-ish content more available, more people are doing it... and complaining about the system.

When you finish learning the system, only then can you complain...

[Glamdring]

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

Not true. Before Abyssea the consensus was that "the HNMLS were going to monopolize the NM, whoops, it's been up for .047 seconds, ___JacktardsLS got claim, see ya, we'll move to Orcish Overlord since these guys are stuck here, wait, we're not an HNMLS, we're not allowed to fight an HNM, let's just move to campaign."

Abyssea moved those HNMLS-types into direct competition with regular players in a general zone. Unfortunately, regular players refuse to relinquish all end-game type content to the exclusive use of those types, nor to become their mindless DD drones/stooges, thus we have conflict. If regular players would simply farm, pop and die within seconds to voluntarily surrender __NM to ___JacktardsLS as they are required to do according to the ___JacktardsLS Code of Conduct we wouldn't even be discussing this issue.

[blowfin]

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.

[Karbuncle]

How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.

Actually its not silly at all.

Its called being prepared. People do it all the time.

I know before any fight, I always look up a good strategy, what to expect, where/when to kite if neccessary, what TP moves to look out for, What Debuffs it can inflict, etc.

Basic things about the game. I would say "Knowing how to keep a mob red" would be "Basic education of the game". Especially if they're so afraid of "Vultures", you think they would research a way to keep mobs red. It just seems like a basic preventative measure.

There is a line to be drawn, but learning the basics of keeping your mob from going unclaimed seems like something people would want to do, especially with all the hate/knowledge of "Vultures" camping ???'s etc.

[Frost]

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.


Except....

People know EXACTLY how it works, and that's why we're complaining. In some cases the current claim system is working contrary to the spirit of the game. Knowing that a DC'ing tank that's auto-attacking a mob and will unclaim the mob when he fully DC's and trying your hardest to pull hate off THE TANK in 30 seconds when it's been well established just so it doesn't happen are two different things. Just because YOU KNOW how it works doesn't mean you can stop it. And just because IT DOES HAPPEN, doesn't mean it's right.

I stand by my original statement this really only became a problem once SE started saying "Hey it went unclaimed, sucks to be you." Back in my HNM days that wouldn't fly... One could easily site racism because the GMs conveniently only popped up when a JP groups' Fafhogg was "stolen", but I'll lean on the side of coincidence... This IS a new thing, and it's been amplified by population density on both sides of the proverbial fence. There's more HNMs being fought and there's more people stealing pops since they believe SE is giving the "The Right" to take anything that goes unclaimed.

Had SE done anything in the past, fewer people would slide their moral flexibilities to the side of theft.

Which is ironic for SE considering you need to confirm 62,000 times to do anything in this game, and yet a monster can go unclaimed without any effort on the part of the group? Really?

[rog]

It takes a minute to dc, not 30 seconds. If you cannot pull hate off someone in a minute, you deserve to lose it.

[Frost]

It takes a minute to dc, not 30 seconds. If you cannot pull hate off someone in a minute, you deserve to lose it.

If you want to get nit-picky then I'll say, there's times where you just can't move the mob...

And no, no one deserves to have anything stolen from them. No one "deserves" to lose the work they put into something when the other 17 people are in complete control.

Hell, if you instated a process as suggested, there's no down side to it. Leaving it the way it is only leaves the door open for theft. Given the two options, which is more fair to the entire gaming populace? One that allows people to steal form one another? Or one that opens up content for people of all skill levels without the fear of theft and having their work go to waist because someone has an oversized sense of self-entitlement?

[Greatguardian]

How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.

That only holds true for the first time someone has run into trouble with the claim system. If they lost a claim and did not know why, and then didn't bother to try and learn why that happened, they cannot blame the game if they lose claim a second or third time.

All it comes down to is the simple fact that people have absolutely no basis upon which to complain about a game system when they have not even attempted to learn how said game system even works.

I am not going around slamming people who lose their claims on NMs and calling them ignorant. I am replying to a mass of people who are posting on these forums, bashing the current state of the claim system and demanding change to it, without even trying to understand it first. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Most of these people would have been much better off simply saying "This happened. Why did I lose claim? Do DoTs not hold claim? I thought my WAR voked the mob, does that not work either?" instead of creating page-long whine-posts, GM threats, blaming "Abyssea" for "Changing how claims work", and accusing everyone but them of Hacking and Botting.

[Frost]

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

[Hoshi]

I'm curious about something I've seen stated several times in these mob going white threads. Has the claim system been the same since the game started? I could have sworn it worked differently up until 2008 or so... back when we used to steal claim on NMs by curing a player in the other ally and then having someone do something to gain a ton of hate like invincible. You also used to be able to reclaim a monster you had hate on much the same way... it happened at countless khims and maybe an ixion or two. I know they changed monster hate in 07 or so... I guess around the time they made it so that mobs would no longer wait at the zone to decimate whoever entered the zone next (and the whole anti-MPK thing).

[Greatguardian]

If you want to get nit-picky then I'll say, there's times where you just can't move the mob...

And no, no one deserves to have anything stolen from them. No one "deserves" to lose the work they put into something when the other 17 people are in complete control.

Hell, if you instated a process as suggested, there's no down side to it. Leaving it the way it is only leaves the door open for theft. Given the two options, which is more fair to the entire gaming populace? One that allows people to steal form one another? Or one that opens up content for people of all skill levels without the fear of theft and having their work go to waist because someone has an oversized sense of self-entitlement?

You continually use the word steal. GMs will rectify situations where NMs are stolen, period. The problem is, we are not talking about stealing.

Ex1:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B's Paladin casts Cure 1 on Group A's Paladin.
Group B's Paladin proceeds to 2hr/Sentinel/spam his Enmity up to cap.
Nidhogg moves out of range of Group A's Paladin, and goes White due to Disengage.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash and claims Nidhogg because he was on the hate list.

Nidhogg was stolen.

Ex2:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B waits patiently nearby, but does not act on any member of Group A.
Group A's Paladin dies with sole claim, there are no other melees hitting Nidhogg and no mage casting on it.
Nidhogg goes White.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash then uses Shield Bash before anyone in Group A acts.

Nidhogg was not stolen.

This is the distinction that GMs made over the years, and has nothing to do with race. As far as they are concerned, unless there was foul play involved, any transfer of claim can be considered legitimate.

[Greatguardian]

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

You know how the claim system works, and you want it changed. Singular, not plural. Yet the only half-legitimate example you have been able to provide is the case of a "Tank" class character disconnecting with hate. As rog pointed out, it's honestly nowhere near difficult to pull hate off a tank in 30-60 seconds =/ especially when said tank is going to be auto-attacking without taking any actions, offensive or defensive, and will likely be bleeding CE unless they're a counterstanced Mnk or an Ochain PLD.

I will absolutely stand by my assertion that it is not difficult at all for a group that understands the claim system to keep claim on a monster.

[Frost]

So a group of 18 people farm up:

A ridiculous amount of trash mobs to get pop items for:

An NM Limule
An NM Clionid
An NM Mandragora
An NM Corpselight
An NM Courel
An NM Eft

As well as taking the pop items those drop and farming MORE trash mobs to pop:

An NM Hectaeyes
An NM Scorpion
An NM Bat
An NM Cockatrice
An NM Manticore

As well as:

An NM Turtle
An NM Gnat
An NM Sandworm

Then pop:

An HNM Mandragora
An HNM Sandworm

To eventually pop:

An HNM turtle.

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

[Karbuncle]

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

Unfortunately, yes. If your group is so afraid of an NM that they can't for 1 second have someone Dia it, Gravity it, or something on it to keep it from going unclaimed, by the games own rules, if it goes white, its free game.

I'm not saying I would take the mob, If the player is in control I morally allow them to continue fighting. But it is absolutely not against the ToS. Its not "Stealing". Its 100% legal.

Thats all he is arguing if i'm reading his posts right. He's only trying to explain to people the difference between stealing and Claiming a fair mob.

If your group is so unorganize/afraid of an NM that not one person out of 18 people stop for 1 second and claim the mob to keep it from going unclaimed, if it goes white, its fair game to any group in range.

Fair? Subjective
Legal by games rules? Yes.
Would i take it? no. I would not take anything until the group is fully wiped. even then, if i dont need the mob i leave it alone.

Example: Yesterday ran by some really really gimp group trying to kill Carabosse. it was a WHM and a WAR i think, they wiped, It went unclaimed and idle, it walked right past me, and i didn't touch it cause it would have been an absolute waste of my time to claim it.

The WHM then Reraise and proceeded to zombie it.



Also:


Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

Claim =/= Deadly weapon. You appear to be trying to tell us that Learning how to keep claim on a monster wont help us keep claim on a monster, this is incorrect. If you learn about a bullet, it would be more akin to learning how to prevent death from being shot.

Like, a Bullet proof Vest, Proper medical treatment, Bullet-proof Glassing, etc.

Its a bad analogy, but i did my best with it.

[Greatguardian]

So a group of 18 people farm up:

A ridiculous amount of trash mobs to get pop items for:

An NM Limule
An NM Clionid
An NM Mandragora
An NM Corpselight
An NM Courel
An NM Eft

As well as taking the pop items those drop and farming MORE trash mobs to pop:

An NM Hectaeyes
An NM Scorpion
An NM Bat
An NM Cockatrice
An NM Manticore

As well as:

An NM Turtle
An NM Gnat
An NM Sandworm

Then pop:

An HNM Mandragora
An HNM Sandworm

To eventually pop:

An HNM turtle.

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

I never said anything about whether or not I would take someone's mob, or what someone's effort to create a pop set is worth (Lacovie is a bad example, it takes maybe 15-30 minutes depending on your luck to make a lacovie set via Gold Box since it's only 2 KI).

However, if everyone scatters and disengages to avoid nukes when they were engaged in the first place, yes, they will lose claim. People (should) know that. That is why, hopefully, they would not be attempting to use such a strategy.

For the record, it is perfectly possible to kite a mob that you have sole claim over while being greater than 30' away. You simply have to take an action against the mob after you have disengaged to reassert your "Non-Engaged" claim. Does Kirin go unclaimed when a kiter out-ranges a Stonega IV? Nope. Would Kirin go unclaimed if a DD who was the last person to hit Kirin turned and disengaged? Yup.

Yes, your intentionally extravagant scenario would result in an unfortunate loss for the party. However, it should not come as any surprise to them that it happened. Sometimes you have to make concessions in strategy in order to cement your claim on a monster. The point that I am leaping around is that all of the melee should not have scattered to the wind in the first place, as they would know that it could cause a claim loss.

[wish12oz]

GMs wont do anything unless someone has had claim on the mob and not done any damage for an hour. Beyond that they dont care. And abyssea mobs don't rage, except smok and maybe rani, he gets some damage reduction. 10 min depop timer or leave it as it is. 10 min is more then enough to proc and kill anything. If it isn't enough for your group, get better.

[Kya]

ppl should kno how keep calm of a Nm this stuff would not happen.

[Hoshi]

ppl should kno how keep calm of a Nm this stuff would not happen.

I usually keep NMs calm by giving them chamomile tea. How do you do it?

[Chocobits]

I've never understood what the act of drawing or putting your weapon away has to do with claim at all? If you can claim without weapons drawn with spells and JA, why does putting your weapon away cause a loss of claim at all? If this particular and completely moronic element of the claim system was completely removed from the equation, problem solved for all scenarios.

I agree with 100% with the spirit of this thread. I think the implementation of the proposed fix, however, would cause other problems that would enable infinite zombying, as others have said.

Removing the disengage being tied to claim fixes the problem.

[Chocobits]

Also, I do not think everyone is "working as intended". If you don't think the claim system is buggy because of engaging/disengaging, then ask yourselves this:

Why can you ranged attack without weapons drawn, but not ranged WS? Doesn't that imply a much larger coding issue with the entire engage system?

[Greatguardian]

Because people are totally worried about all the times that they lose claim when they intentionally hit /attack off. The fact that they used the disengage mechanic to trigger the forfeiture of a claim has absolutely nothing to do with the "ridiculousness" of sheathing your weapon.

Edit: You can use ranged abilities and spells without being engaged. You cannot use Any WS without being in Battle Mode. That does not mean there is a "glitch" with the claim system. That means that WS are not programmed to be usable outside of Battle Mode. Period.

[Chocobits]

Because people are totally worried about all the times that they lose claim when they intentionally hit /attack off. The fact that they used the disengage mechanic to trigger the forfeiture of a claim has absolutely nothing to do with the "ridiculousness" of sheathing your weapon.

Edit: You can use ranged abilities and spells without being engaged. You cannot use Any WS without being in Battle Mode. That does not mean there is a "glitch" with the claim system. That means that WS are not programmed to be usable outside of Battle Mode. Period.

That's the point. What about having your weapon drawn has anything to do with being in "battle mode"? You get the battle music for using any action on a mob. Also, it is not working as intended when a group can claim your unclaimed mob and proceed to kill it while it still has hate on your group. They just follow it around with weapons drawn and finish it off while it finishes you off.

Here are my suggestions for fixing NM claims:

Increase the engage/disengage distance to 40 yalms.
Remove auto-forfeit of claim by putting away weapon.
Replace CFH on NMs with "Release Claim", so that a group still has the option to relinquish a mob they can't reasonably kill.

It doesn't matter (to me at least) that if you "suck less" and keep people dedicated to maintaining claim, you can work through most situations. The fact that it's still possible for a group to camp on top of you waiting for you to lose claim means the system is NOT working.

If these people aren't punishable by the ToS, either the ToS needs updating to include this provision, or the mechanics of the claim system need adjusting to disallow this. This thread was started with the spirit of stopping, not the random group that sees someone wiping as they pass by and decide to claim a mob, but those that don't farm their own NMs and camp on top of those specific mobs (like charming ones) because they have a loophole in the ToS that allows them to exploit a game mechanic.

[Greatguardian]

Er, having your weapon drawn is synonymous to being in Battle Mode. It appears in the upper left corner of the screen when you do so. The battle music change is relatively recent (Originally, you only did get battle music if engaged), and was added specifically to give people a heads up to combat in their alliance rather than as a side effect of fighting mobs.

Do vultures suck? Yes. Are they doing anything illegal by standing around in a point of their choosing, doing absolutely NOTHING to hinder the fight or interfere with the combatants? No. Never. Not in a million years. At best it's rude, but so is /check according to some people =/.

I highly doubt this problem is as widespread as people are making it out to be, too. I have never, not once, seen a group sit around at a spawn point without pops for the sole purpose of stealing other people's NMs. Who the hell does that? It is a complete and utter waste of time unless you know you are dealing with absolute idiots who are going to be wiping/losing claim every pop.

[blowfin]

Basic things about the game. I would say "Knowing how to keep a mob red" would be "Basic education of the game". Especially if they're so afraid of "Vultures", you think they would research a way to keep mobs red. It just seems like a basic preventative measure.

Well sure, it's easy to say that after someone has had a bad experience. As far as it being basic knowledge of the game I'd say it's not really. It's something that people learn over time through experiences of losing claim and etc. It's knowledge that I'd suggest is usually learnt as a reactionary measure, rather than before the fact like strategies. It's probably pretty far off the radar of players who are entering into Abyss for the first time. It's even further off the radar for people who don't have an interest in browsing forums and the like (yes, they're real players too). Hell I've been playing since 2004, have done a lot of content, and I've learnt things about the claim system in the past few weeks that I didn't know. Do you know why I'm learning new things? They just didn't matter as much as they do now in the current game. The hate mechanics have never before caused the volume of issues they are causing now.

[TybudX]

It's probably pretty far off the radar of players who are entering into Abyss for the first time.

Woah, woah, hold on there Tex! What's this there Abyssea you folks are talking about? Is that like a BCNM or something?


Do you know why I'm learning new things? They just didn't matter as much as they do now in the current game. The hate mechanics have never before caused the volume of issues they are causing now.

I find this kind of funny considering the discovery of 'hate mechanics' was probably the most prolific and important spread of information in FFXIs history. It was a major development in the English speaking player base and helped bring the concept of 'tanking' out of the dark ages to what we have now. Granted it wasn't until very, very recently that 'DD tanking' has become more popular, but high end players have been eschewing traditional tanks for everything except fun for a long time now. I know you have posted on Alla in the past, and that the information was there if you wanted to learn it. But then, I was being rate bombed there as recently as this Christmas for suggesting that DDs should carry pdt/mdt sets with them, so as somebody else said... willful ignorance.

Not saying that something should or shouldn't be done about the claim system (actually, I'm with Chocobits on this one), but saying the 'hate mechanics' didn't matter much until recently? It's kind of the core of the game.

[Frost]

Actually that's a pretty elegant solution to the issue; tie the claim to battle music. If you have battle music, you have claim.

[Linh]

If these people aren't punishable by the ToS, either the ToS needs updating to include this provision, or the mechanics of the claim system need adjusting to disallow this.

Took the words right outta my mouth.

[Antipika]

@Chocobits

I don't see any ToS update coming, do you really think that SE have the time to investigate/punish all players "stealing" NMs? Do you even think that evidence can be easily found? MPKer aren't even always punished, so players stealing... Goodluck with that.

Either game mechanisms gets updated either... game mechanisms gets updated. Just forget about the ToS. Will not solve anything.

[blowfin]

I find this kind of funny considering the discovery of 'hate mechanics' was probably the most prolific and important spread of information in FFXIs history. It was a major development in the English speaking player base and helped bring the concept of 'tanking' out of the dark ages to what we have now. Granted it wasn't until very, very recently that 'DD tanking' has become more popular, but high end players have been eschewing traditional tanks for everything except fun for a long time now. I know you have posted on Alla in the past, and that the information was there if you wanted to learn it. But then, I was being rate bombed there as recently as this Christmas for suggesting that DDs should carry pdt/mdt sets with them, so as somebody else said... willful ignorance.

If you're talking about Kaeko's enmity testing i'm well aware of that. I was under the assumption that players had known how the claim system had worked well before that information was compiled though. Willful ignorance? Not really, the only times the claim system has ever effected me much is on BST, and I'm well aware of how to deal with that. My other jobs aren't effected by it anywhere near as much. So, I know very well what the issues are that effect my jobs, which puts me pretty far from ignorant really. Anything beyond that is an exercise in curiosity from my point of view, and either constitutes a waste of time or brain cells, or both.


Not saying that something should or shouldn't be done about the claim system (actually, I'm with Chocobits on this one), but saying the 'hate mechanics' didn't matter much until recently? It's kind of the core of the game.

If you didn't know how it worked 3 years ago chances are you weren't at much of a disadvantage. Even in HNM the times when it was actually useful knowledge to be armed with were few and far between. Now you most certainly are at a disadvantage in Abyss if you have no idea. I'm talking in relative terms too, not the uber-fashionable absolutes. I'm not saying that knowledge of the claim system was useless before Abyss, but it's several orders of magnitude more relevant now.

Core of the game? Sure we can use that term. If you're happy to accept the fact that it's being exposed to countless more players than it was a couple of years ago.

[Seriha]

Do vultures suck? Yes. Are they doing anything illegal by standing around in a point of their choosing, doing absolutely NOTHING to hinder the fight or interfere with the combatants? No. Never. Not in a million years. At best it's rude, but so is /check according to some people =/.

Get enough people standing around and lag starts happening. Historically, some have issues with avatars causing FPS chug, especially with Titan doing something like Earthen Ward to everyone it can. When people start lagging, their performance starts slipping, and given FFXI's age and design, getting a better computer isn't exactly a guaranteed solution, nevermind the asanine implication that someone could have to spend hundreds of dollars on a new rig to help keep claim or guarantee the success of your party/alliance I'm sure would be suggested in counter. Plus if it's a location where adds are an issue, you make it more difficult for the main fighting party to tab around quickly. So no, they're not being harmless.

[Akujima]

'hate mechanics'

Tybud what happened to your sig man? I loved it.

[Chocobits]

Get enough people standing around and lag starts happening. Historically, some have issues with avatars causing FPS chug, especially with Titan doing something like Earthen Ward to everyone it can. When people start lagging, their performance starts slipping, and given FFXI's age and design, getting a better computer isn't exactly a guaranteed solution, nevermind the asanine implication that someone could have to spend hundreds of dollars on a new rig to help keep claim or guarantee the success of your party/alliance I'm sure would be suggested in counter. Plus if it's a location where adds are an issue, you make it more difficult for the main fighting party to tab around quickly. So no, they're not being harmless.


Minimum System Requirements

Operating System: Windows® XP/Vista/7
CPU: Intel® Pentium®III 800Mhz or faster processor
Memory: 128 MB RAM
Graphics Card: NVIDIA® GeForce™ series with 32 MB or ATI® RADEON™ 9000 series
Sound Card: DirectX®8.1 compatible sound card
Hard Drive Space: 9.5 GB free hard disk space
Other: Keyboard, mouse, DirectX8.1 (included with install disc),
CD-ROM drive (used only when installing)

*For PlayOnline/FINAL FANTASY XI: Ultimate Collection, Vana'diel Collection(s), Aht Urhgan, and Wings of the Goddess, a DVD-ROM drive is necessary for installation.
Recommended

Operating System: Windows® XP Professional
CPU: Intel® Pentium®4 processor
Memory: 256 MB
Graphics Card: NVIDIA® GeForce FX™ series or GeForce 6 series
Sound Card: DirectX®8.1 compatible sound card
Hard Drive Space: 9.5 GB free hard disk space
Other: Keyboard, mouse, DirectX8.1 (included with install disc),
CD-ROM drive (used only when installing)

*For PlayOnline/FINAL FANTASY XI: Ultimate Collection, Vana'diel Collection(s), Aht Urhgan, and Wings of the Goddess, a DVD-ROM drive is necessary for installation.

People that think a better computer will magically make the game run better should invest that money in a new brain; theirs' is obviously glitched. This game runs on a Dell Dimension 4000 series with stock parts.

[Seriha]

Yeah, my main point was a mix of the game engine and hardware/driver conflicts is no guarantee graphical lag issues caused by crowded/busy areas would go away.

[Kaych]

I can. It was back at 75, when i was soloing a charybdis. It deaggroed when i was about 30' away, and it was unclaimed for about half a second before i could get to it and hit it with poison.

Just imagen if a WAR /war was there to steal it with a instant provoke O.o

Edit: Woah, had no idea this thread was this long XD I will read the whole thing b4 I post something next time ^_-

[rog]

Just imagen if a WAR /war was there to steal it with a instant provoke O.o
War can't sub war silly.

[Glamdring]

People that think a better computer will magically make the game run better should invest that money in a new brain; theirs' is obviously glitched. This game runs on a Dell Dimension 4000 series with stock parts.

it also still runs on a dial-up connection... not well mind you, but it runs

[Kingofgeeks]

yeah i wanna be a jerk about this topic, but i wont be and just say:

i disagree with you

[Crocker]

You continually use the word steal. GMs will rectify situations where NMs are stolen, period. The problem is, we are not talking about stealing.

Ex1:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B's Paladin casts Cure 1 on Group A's Paladin.
Group B's Paladin proceeds to 2hr/Sentinel/spam his Enmity up to cap.
Nidhogg moves out of range of Group A's Paladin, and goes White due to Disengage.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash and claims Nidhogg because he was on the hate list.

Nidhogg was stolen.

Ex2:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B waits patiently nearby, but does not act on any member of Group A.
Group A's Paladin dies with sole claim, there are no other melees hitting Nidhogg and no mage casting on it.
Nidhogg goes White.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash then uses Shield Bash before anyone in Group A acts.

Nidhogg was not stolen.

Example 1 was already fixed /blockaid on.

Example 2 that's the issue tank dies it goes unclaimed when at least the whm has cured the tank putting the whm on the hate list. We know how the system works we want it fixed if your on the hate list at all it should stay red but it doesn't even if you have someone else provoke and flash spamming and tank dies it still unclaims. You shouldn't have to do extra actions that you normally wouldn't do to keep stuff claimed spamming stun flash or whatever and yes its extra stuff since its stuff you wouldn't do if it never went white!

Tank dies and monster stays red what would you do? I know if I was on blm I wouldn't stun and pull hate and get the mages killed. The monster would go to the next person on the hate list hopefully a DD job and mages would reposition themselfs and fight continues.

Only reason anyone would want the claim system to stay as it is would be the jerks stealing monsters, and you couldn't apoc zombie something with a 15-20 min rage timer and to reset the rage timer everyone would have to be dead making it go idle / unclaimed.

[xbobx]

I noticed an issue with Ranged attack. I have been doing dominion on worms with ranger and sometimes it will not go claimed for a few hits. ONe time it stayed unclaimed the whole fight and I killed it, got exp. A couple of times it went yellow in the middle of a fight. I was solo, I never stopped shooting, or left attack mode.

[Glamdring]

and don't mess with call for help. with all the vultures I see around some of these NMs I fully intend going forward that if we are about to get our mob jacked to call for help just before I die... NO ONE who hasn't done the work will be allowed to profit off of my efforts, period!

not an issue when I solo. I don't take on an NM solo if I don't honestly believe I can take it, after reading up on it and checking my supplies, strength of the job against X, etc. In groups? There are simply more issues. If you need a !! for whatever you are after then you either need a buttload of different damage types to cover the possibilities OR a buttload of luck. You can limit possibilities SLIGHTLY on blue !! with the time of day and on red by fighting on watersday (unless someone finally found a red !! water trigger and I missed it?), but still your group may have to do alot of TP feed to get proc. And before some moron brings up discernment it doesn't proc 100% of the time, you may be having to whack/nuke a mob quite a bit to get your 1st hint, then you need to try the possibles; of course you can get lucky and proc on your 1st WS or cast before you even get a hint.

Unfortunately, all that whacking has the consequence of getting whacked back! And if it's the wrong TP move (like a mass charm) things can turn to a royal cluster____ in a hurry, especially if stun isn't a realistic option. That's one of the reasons low-man has gained in popularity, you can set things up so that hopefully only 1 person at a time is on the whack back list while trying to proc whatever !! you need (yes, I know, there's alot more reasons to low man, I did say "one"). It is a good reason to use bards on the yellow !! front. Even if threnody isn't the trigger you don't have to nuke the mob to get your hints, thus not pissing it off as much.

So, everyone can stand back out of TP range, hopefully healing whoever is taking their turn trying to !! proc and being ready to claim if he gets 1-shot or whatever, but if you aren't getting lucky on your hints it may take quite awhile this way.

Kiting is another issue. Actually had a vulture group running around randomly to obstruct my and the NMs paths, in what I believe was an attempt to make me lose claim due to distance, a real possibility with +movement; luckily, I'm smarter than that, used them as cover and kept slamming Dia and banish on the big fish (think we were going for a zone win for someone iirc). Since then I've used something similar, after the mass charm I use horde to sleep the charmed, then I use them as the cover to keep spamming hate manuvers; they may not like it, but it beats losing a mob we need.

Another thing we've started to deliberately do, alot of the boss NMs have TP moves that affect people outside the fighting group. If we see a group that looks like it's trying to vulture, we bring the NM to them in a variation of MPK. Even if they can Apoc zombie, the reflex is to scatter which can disrupt their chances at jacking the mob.

Unfortunately, SE doen't give alot of options to deal with vultures. That's why CFH-as is-is so important, it's the only way to ruin their jack attempts, but the sucky part is a. no point getting back up to fight it yourself, wasting your popset b. timing it so you don't have to forfeit your mob unless you KNOW you're about to die and noone in your group will get/keep hate (one of the many reasons my thief SATAs stuff onto AFK people), c. getting it off when you are at low HP and running if-like me-you're a lousy typist.

[rog]

NO ONE who hasn't done the work will be allowed to profit off of my efforts, period!And you expect others to be nice?

[Hoshi]

I noticed an issue with Ranged attack. I have been doing dominion on worms with ranger and sometimes it will not go claimed for a few hits. ONe time it stayed unclaimed the whole fight and I killed it, got exp. A couple of times it went yellow in the middle of a fight. I was solo, I never stopped shooting, or left attack mode.

As far as the first issue goes do you know if anyone else around you was fighting worms? It's possible someone in the area had first action. I noticed something similar when I was fighting other xp parties for claim on worms in LTP. As far as things going yellow mid-fight I noticed something similar while soloing dolls on blm in altepa. I was not out of range and I should have had substantial hate on the doll from bind + bliz4 but for some reason it lost interest mid-nuke (and then it died lol).

[Glamdring]

And you expect others to be nice?

no, I'm a born cynic, I always expect the worst out of everyone, and I'm never disappointed. The advantage? all my surprises are pleasant ones! the disadvantage, I'm usually in a crappy mood.

I also boot people who AFK when I'm a party leader.

[xbobx]

"As far as the first issue goes do you know if anyone else around you was fighting worms? It's possible someone in the area had first action. I noticed something similar when I was fighting other xp parties for claim on worms in LTP. As far as things going yellow mid-fight I noticed something similar while soloing dolls on blm in altepa. I was not out of range and I should have had substantial hate on the doll from bind + bliz4 but for some reason it lost interest mid-nuke (and then it died lol). "

I was all alone in the area.

[Alhanelem]

no, I'm a born cynic, I always expect the worst out of everyone, and I'm never disappointed. The advantage? all my surprises are pleasant ones! the disadvantage, I'm usually in a crappy mood.

I also boot people who AFK when I'm a party leader.
Most cnyics are cyncial because of other cynics. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Try being nice sometime. You might be suprised at how helpful it can be.

[rog]

Most cnyics are cyncial because of other cynics. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Try being nice sometime. You might be suprised at how helpful it can be.
What, like being nice will suddenly make others be nice too? Yeah right.

[Greatguardian]

You're not actually nice at all unless you can stay nice even when other people are dicks.

That said, it looks like the BG crowd are some of the nicest players around. I've yet to see a vindictive "I HATE THOSE GUYS I'M GONNA SCREAM AT THEM IN SHOUT AND TRY TO GET THEM BANNED, IF I CAN'T HAVE IT NO ONE CAN" post from any of them when they lose claims, and yes that shit does happen to everyone from time to time.

The difference is, the BG crowd chalks it up as their own mistake and moves on. And people call us immature jerks. The gall.

[rog]

You're not actually nice at all unless you can stay nice even when other people are dicks.

That said, it looks like the BG crowd are some of the nicest players around. I've yet to see a vindictive "I HATE THOSE GUYS I'M GONNA SCREAM AT THEM IN SHOUT AND TRY TO GET THEM BANNED, IF I CAN'T HAVE IT NO ONE CAN" post from any of them when they lose claims, and yes that shit does happen to everyone from time to time.

The difference is, the BG crowd chalks it up as their own mistake and moves on. And people call us immature jerks. The gall.Only because everyone on bg cheats, so losing a pop set they botted isn't a big deal.

[Greatguardian]

Only because everyone on bg cheats, so losing a pop set they botted isn't a big deal.

Oh you. 7890

[Kya]

Like this game we can jack ppl Nms when they cant kill them or do it right way to fight them

[rog]

Oh you. 7890
Don't act like it is not true. I used to post on bg (until i left because i was outraged with all the cheating), so i know what it is like over there. Don't think you can fool me.

[Valaris]

personally ive only had a nm taken once me and 4 other BLM were manaburning CC and for some reason i dont know why when he droped down from the bridge he went unclaimed for about half a second which was enough for a solo ninja to use violent flourish to take claim luckly not even a minute after that CC charmed the ninja and we nuked his ass into oblivion and took our NM back and killed it :D. but yes sometimes nms go unlcaimed for reasons i dont know we werent out of range of it and lack of damage wasnt a issue we got it from 100% down to 20% in less than 2 minutes not sure what happened there.

[Kya]

Lmfao that y to do right there

[Glamdring]

Most cnyics are cyncial because of other cynics. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Try being nice sometime. You might be suprised at how helpful it can be.

actually, I'm extremely nice, to everyone... until you burn me, once. You will never be afforded a 2nd chance to do it again, as you forfeited my trust in the possibility of you being a decent human being the 1st time you burned me. You get the respect-or lack thereof-that you earn in your conduct with me. Don't want to be treated like a jack-ass? don't be one.

As to the guy calling anyone that allows a mob to turn white "garbage", if only any of that were true. The common complaint here is that you shouldn't be allowed to benefit from the work of others. Discussing it brings up what are some apparent flaws in the system, like a mob losing hate even tho' it's still taking damage from the poison or whatever you put on it. The game is supposed to mimic a real world; who in the real world do you know that is not going to be pissed at you after a poisoning, simply because you are 30 feet away? The players here that are complaining are complaining about things like that which simply is not realistic. "You jackass, you poisoned me!!! I'm gonna kill-oh, wait, you're over there, never mind", doesn't seem that realistic to me.

For that matter, 18 guys in plain view have been wailing on you for some time, inflicting thousands of points of damage, 1 dies/is charmed and it takes only a couple seconds for you to decide all the bleeding and stuff is no biggie?! When you can see someone standing not 35 feet away holding a weapon coverred in your blood? Again, where's the realism? Are we all just trying to kill one of 28,000 incarnations of Jesus who's busy "turning the other cheek"?

[Lutschfactor]

nice job. we would have done the samething which is why the claiming system is fine how it is.

[Valaris]

not gonna lie it was very enjoyable lol

[Greatguardian]

If you screw up, you lose rights to your "work" (however hard that actually is, Abyssea is fingerlicking easy and no one has any right to complain about lost effort in that zone). That's it. You screw up, you lose, you die, you potentially lose claim.

You do things right? You don't lose claim. Funny how that's overlooked so often.

When claim is forfeit? Better someone kill the monster than no one at all. Otherwise, that would just be a waste of a Heqet. You know what I say when I screw up and someone gets my NM?

"Well, at least someone got something out of it."

For all this talk about vultures and justice, the general mindset here is horribly immature.

[Malacite]

^ because everything in the world is Black & White and there are no grey areas amirite?

:(

[Briarb19]

like i said. if players were not garbage they wouldnt lose claim. we run with 12 people in the shell. we never lose claim. why b/c we r not garbage players. so once again someone hating coz they are in turn garbage as well.

This argument and others like it are completely irrelevant. It's like saying "You're stupid for taking South Street home and getting mugged as a result. I'm not stupid because I take North Street and don't get mugged. North Street is so easy to take home, so you deserved to get mugged."

This argument doesn't change the 'crime' of mugging, which is the point here. People playing the game shouldn't have to worry about their own time and effort going 'yellow' and some amoral person stealing it, regardless of game skill level. Period.

[rog]

I hate your posts because they are unreadable.

[Annahya]

like i said go on and hate my posts. coz ur garbage u have no reason to cry to Se about making the game ever more easier to get things. and anyone who is going to go against obviously has had mobs taken from them. once again coz ur garbage and cant keep hate on ur own mob. so again please hate more i love when people hate on me for being right

I am not so sure you were being "hated on" so much as critically assessed. Hating, to my understanding, would include insults and the like; such as "ur garbage."


This argument and others like it are completely irrelevant. It's like saying "You're stupid for taking South Street home and getting mugged as a result. I'm not stupid because I take North Street and don't get mugged. North Street is so easy to take home, so you deserved to get mugged."

This argument doesn't change the 'crime' of mugging, which is the point here. People playing the game shouldn't have to worry about their own time and effort going 'yellow' and some amoral person stealing it, regardless of game skill level. Period.

As much as I might agree with this sentiment, the analogy is not perfect. Yes, the advice does nothing to prevent the crime of mugging - but it still assists someone in ensuring that it does not happen to them.

As the issue at hand is the prevention of claim-stealing, while we discuss ways the system could be improved in the future, we cannot discount the fact that there are ways to make the best of the way the system is now.

Personally, however, I have never been a fan of the argument "better that someone got it." Yes, the mob rotting is bad, and someone getting it is good, but if one were to have to choose a better, to me that would be helping the current claimant succeed in their endeavor. If you show up to a pop and it is already claimed, you are no worse off than you expected to be when you set out on your adventure, and if you help them succeed you a) may make a useful contact, or at the very least b) potentially remove them from the pool of compeition by getting them what you are after.

I have been in at least one situation where claim was lost by my group, and the individual who took it was kind enough to kite it so that our group could recover and regain claim from them. Because someone has done this for me, I have done it for others in return.

I am not stating that we all need to venture forth as figurative paladins who only play for others, but what we should be doing is remembering that this is a game that can only be experienced - it cannot be won.

[rog]

wow rog 1,182 posts. do u even have a job. or does teh govt support ur broke ass?
I do not have a job. If you know of anyone hiring near me, please let me know! I have been searching for one for months, with no luck.

[HFX7686]

Unlike the other "social stratification systems" you speak about anyone is capable of rising in FF11 through some simple research and practice.

Basically, if you learn how to not wipe to a mob and not lose claim to a mob (both easily accomplished tasks) you will rise in the social stratification system. Not really a hard concept to follow, eh?

[Glamdring]

there is GREAT money in septic tanks, really, not joking. one of my clients, his earliest business, and still the cornerstone of his business empire, is sucking out septic tanks. Truck does all the work and believe it or not you don't get your hands dirty. Also, you set your own hours for the most part. There you go...

now, as to the "suck less" stance taken by some in these threads, the only thing that needs to "suck less" is their sense of ethics and personal pride. they are proud because they jack the product of someone else's work, take pride in their ability to quickly (but generally not quickly, based on observation) defeat a mob that someone else has already weakened, and somehow that makes them "good". sorry, "good" is the wrong word to describe that type of person; there are myriad correct terms for it but they all boil down to synonyms of "smegma". Look it up.

[Karbuncle]

now, as to the "suck less" stance taken by some in these threads, the only thing that needs to "suck less" is their sense of ethics and personal pride. they are proud because they jack the product of someone else's work, take pride in their ability to quickly (but generally not quickly, based on observation) defeat a mob that someone else has already weakened, and somehow that makes them "good". sorry, "good" is the wrong word to describe that type of person; there are myriad correct terms for it but they all boil down to synonyms of "smegma". Look it up.

No one denies someone who sits around waiting to steal a claim are scum. They are. They're worthless scum who leech off other peoples works, and their pride is meaningless. However, not everyone who uses that term does what you described.

(Might not be your viewpoint)
However, Those using That's as an excuse is nothing more than a mere scape-goat argument. Using the argument "But people who do xxx are bad so yyy is bad too" is something a politician would do. Because it makes stupid people go "er hay yar, thur right", even though it makes no logical sense to jump from that conclusion to the other.

It still doesn't change the fact that the best fix for this is simple player taken percautions to ensure their precious NM remains theirs.

Yes. everyone hates Vultures, but despite all of this, "sucking less" is the best solution. I don't like using that term, it sounds just plain mean/rude frankly. Maybe i should say "Learn more"? I don't know. Either way, this is an easily solvable problem the players can take into their own hands by educating themselves.

Fully educated yourself on holding claim, and you will keep claim 999/1000 times (Leaving room for human error).

[Hoshi]

Yes. everyone hates Vultures, but despite all of this, "sucking less" is the best solution. I don't like using that term, it sounds just plain mean/rude frankly. Maybe i should say "Learn more"? I don't know. Either way, this is an easily solvable problem the players can take into their own hands by educating themselves.


I guess I take issue with the suck less thing because in order to suck less my group has ended up sucking more. We have lost 1 CC out of 3 completed emps on that path so it's not really a matter of losing pops, the first time we lost a CC to charm was the only time it happened. The thing that annoys me is that our solution was to have a melee stay off the mob but close enough in range that they could be on the mob before it went white. This slowed down our kill speed a bit effectively making us suck more. I'm sure you're going to suggest that our mages should suck less and perhaps they should but I'd rather not lose a mob and kill slower than rely on a group of people who already have a lot of stuff on their plate. I think mayhem lantern is a bit of a gimmick and that annoys me...

I also feel like player behavior has changed as time has gone on. There was a time when you randomed for things that others wiped to... although that went out the window when people started abusing it. There was also a time when you gave the drops of a pop NM to the shell that wiped to it and that always used to make me smile. I know I'm wearing rose colored glasses with regards to the past, machina has definitely contributed lots of drama as the years have gone by but I do feel like more people find deplorable behavior acceptable now than a few years ago.

[Karbuncle]

I also feel like player behavior has changed as time has gone on. There was a time when you randomed for things that others wiped to... although that went out the window when people started abusing it. There was also a time when you gave the drops of a pop NM to the shell that wiped to it and that always used to make me smile. I know I'm wearing rose colored glasses with regards to the past, machina has definitely contributed lots of drama as the years have gone by but I do feel like more people find deplorable behavior acceptable now than a few years ago.

If I see someone wiping to a mob i don't need, I'll offer help, give them the drops. If I'm ignore i move on. If someones wiping to a mob i need, I'll offer help, if I'm ignored, I'll claim it and keep the drops.

Sometimes i claim a mob people are wiping too, I always have the intention of giving them the drops. If they go crazy on me in say before i can make that known, They get nothing.

Anyway, The bolded part probably happened once a year at best. I'm sorry but 2004/5 Ground king Drama was 1000x worse than anything in Abyssea. old FFXI had a way way way worse community than it has now. There is no denying or getting around that.

Back then, you had ~40 people staring and waiting for you to screw up in anyway, you had MPK attempts, You had people attempting to Spikeflail your claims, Running in your path at King Behemoth, etc. Especially back before the "Depop" update, People would train spiders to nidhogg and die.

BST masters would Uncharm mobs near a Group fighting.

I don't think the game has changed must in terms of community. Just as many assholes exist now as they did back then. The only reason is more "obvious" now is because Abyssea is largely accessible to everyone. More casual "newb" players experiencing content they dont bother to research for would obviously lead to many problems, Like losing claim.

There were hints of civility like you described, but that same "hints of civility" exist today. With people giving those who wiped drops (I do it sometimes), etc. Its really the same, but more people have access, so its happening "more" because the NMs in question can be popped indefinitely 3 times per minute, where as old days it was 21-24.

(You probably agree to all the above anyway? why do i say it?!)

(I'm not saying everyone is a "casual newb", Only using an example).

That being said, I hate vultures, But they've existed forever. Rather it be the group who lost random and tried to claim anyway, or the guy who sits by quietly and watches your group fight Crion hoping for a free mob.

... I don't agree morally with "Waiting to take a white mob". But if i happen upon it, as listed above, I'll do my thing, If i end up claiming, I'll likely give them the drops if they're civil about it. If i get a rage tell/say for my troubles, I'll blist them and move on.

but thats just me :|

[Hoshi]

Yeah I do pretty much agree with what you said :P. I guess the drama just felt more tightly regulated in the past and maybe that's because I've always been in shells affiliated with fellowship and we tended to interact with other shells that also ran with fellowship people (of course most every shell on asura had people in fellowship for a while there). I don't think that dynamic has been on asura since old fellowship broke.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah I do pretty much agree with what you said :P. I guess the drama just felt more tightly regulated in the past and maybe that's because I've always been in shells affiliated with fellowship and we tended to interact with other shells that also ran with fellowship people (of course most every shell on asura had people in fellowship for a while there). I don't think that dynamic has been on asura since old fellowship broke.

Yah, Its probably just Asura >__>

This server is so fun in a drama way.

[Lutschfactor]

we dont camp other shells that we know are gonna lose the claim. if we r fighting something and another group comes in. and loses claim then one of our players paying attention claims the mob and we show shells how to take on not only 1 NM but 2 NMs at a time without losing claim. sorry if people r still garbage that they lose claim still. stop bitching and complaining that u want all mobs to never become unclaimed. so what if someone puts 6 hrs into farming items. and they lose all 6 NMs. they should have not been doing it after the 2nd one then.

[Millers]

I'm curious about something I've seen stated several times in these mob going white threads. Has the claim system been the same since the game started? I could have sworn it worked differently up until 2008 or so... back when we used to steal claim on NMs by curing a player in the other ally and then having someone do something to gain a ton of hate like invincible. You also used to be able to reclaim a monster you had hate on much the same way... it happened at countless khims and maybe an ixion or two. I know they changed monster hate in 07 or so... I guess around the time they made it so that mobs would no longer wait at the zone to decimate whoever entered the zone next (and the whole anti-MPK thing).
I agree that the claim system use to be different.

I agree with the OP. I've seen nm's do this dispite people being up due to a d/c or a one person death. I do not believe it fair to loose all that hard work because some people are not considerate. I do noth either think it fair to stand there with the only pop area for unreasonable hours. I like the idea of being able to reliquish a mob if you do not think you can kill it reasonably as well as allowing others to kill it realising you were unprepaired. Sadly not everyone cares about others or their hard work. Be nice if people could be considerate however this is often not the case. I do wish SE could do something about the current system just because it is a certian way doesn't mean it is a good way. Theres been many things SE has changed due to it just not working as well as they wished it would. Good post frost ^^b

[HFX7686]

As someone who did end game in 2004/05 I have to say that I don't remember all this top hat and monocle civility. There was a time when people randomed for kings, but it was a very short time. Mostly I remember a lot of arguing, drama, and MPKing.

[Greatguardian]

As someone who did end game in 2004/05 I have to say that I don't remember all this top hat and monocle civility. There was a time when people randomed for kings, but it was a very short time. Mostly I remember a lot of arguing, drama, and MPKing.

^ This. My server was an absolute warzone for many, many years since some of the more famous/infamous bot developers around played on it (heard of FFXIAPP?).

As a few other BG posters have mentioned, the general consensus among most people I know (and myself) is to take a NM if it looks like the group fighting it is completely bumcrap retarded and can't handle the fight, then offer them 50% of the drops (or just the ability to lot on the drops with us) assuming, and now this is important, assuming that they do not go full retard on us and start screaming and freaking out the moment they lose the NM.

If you're going to start calling me a "wormless carrot" (modified for Forum regulations), like hell I'm going to extend you a courtesy. I really am under absolutely no obligation to give you items just because you built a pop set and couldn't kill the NM. At the same time, yes, I think it would be nice if people worked together so I'll work with people when they are willing to work with me.

Best two pieces of advice anyone reading this thread can get:

1) Learn how claiming works. Yes, this could be considered equivalent to "Suck less", but that's not the point. There is never anything wrong with bettering yourself. Once you understand how the claim system works and can put that understanding into practice, you'll find that you won't be losing claim nearly as often.

2) Lose gracefully. Be mature. Even those of us that were preteens when FFXI came out are all adults now. Act like it. There is no need to start screaming, berating, calling people names, and generally being a total asshole just because you lost an NM. Trying to call down the hand of holy justice onto people because you're mad is just childish.

Laugh it off. Take yourself less seriously. One loss is one loss, it's not a big deal. If the claiming group decides to invite you to lot? Awesome, that's a bonus. If they don't? Oh well, not a huge deal. Stay chill. Lower your blood pressure. You'll be a lot happier.

[DebbieGibson]

I for one love how the claim system works. Stealing mobs is one of my favorite pastimes.

[rog]

I for one love how the claim system works. Stealing mobs is one of my favorite pastimes.
Omg, it's Debbie Gibon! I did not know she played ffxi! Starcade is going to be so happy when he finds out about this!

[Chocobits]

I agree that the claim system use to be different.

I agree with the OP. I've seen nm's do this dispite people being up due to a d/c or a one person death. I do not believe it fair to loose all that hard work because some people are not considerate. I do noth either think it fair to stand there with the only pop area for unreasonable hours. I like the idea of being able to reliquish a mob if you do not think you can kill it reasonably as well as allowing others to kill it realising you were unprepaired. Sadly not everyone cares about others or their hard work. Be nice if people could be considerate however this is often not the case. I do wish SE could do something about the current system just because it is a certian way doesn't mean it is a good way. Theres been many things SE has changed due to it just not working as well as they wished it would. Good post frost ^^b

Actually the way the claim system used to work until the enmity = claim patch was, if you spammed Dia/Flash/Provoke on a claimed mob that someone else was fighting, there would come at least 1-2 points during their fight that every mob naturally came "unclaimed" by itself, regardless of hate, last person to act, who had weapons drawn etc. You would not see the mob's name turn white because it happened so quickly. People were getting Fafhoggs stolen left and right because of this. I tested this out with the help of friends by having them solo normal mobs while I spammed actions. If they didn't kill the mob too quickly, I was able to take claim of nearly every mob they fought.

The only difference between then and now was, back then while the people that lost claim would still be on the "hate list" and thus be susceptible to AoE, they instantly lost all hate from the mob and my Dia would have the mob happily smacking away at me. Now, someone can claim a white mob which will proceed to destroy the party with former claim while the thieves only have to deal with AoE. I do not believe this is working as intended.

[rog]

Actually the way the claim system used to work until the enmity = claim patch was, if you spammed Dia/Flash/Provoke on a claimed mob that someone else was fighting, there would come at least 1-2 points during their fight that every mob naturally came "unclaimed" by itself, regardless of hate, last person to act, who had weapons drawn etc. You would not see the mob's name turn white because it happened so quickly. People were getting Fafhoggs stolen left and right because of this. I tested this out with the help of friends by having them solo normal mobs while I spammed actions. If they didn't kill the mob too quickly, I was able to take claim of nearly every mob they fought.

The only difference between then and now was, back then while the people that lost claim would still be on the "hate list" and thus be susceptible to AoE, they instantly lost all hate from the mob and my Dia would have the mob happily smacking away at me. Now, someone can claim a white mob which will proceed to destroy the party with former claim while the thieves only have to deal with AoE. I do not believe this is working as intended.lol, none of that is true.

[Chocobits]

lol, none of that is true.

Can't tell if you're trolling (you do have a tendency to do that) or if you're uninformed. The above is 100% true until it was patched in 2006. *Edit* I think it was 2006. Might've been '07.

Regardless, 35 likes in 3 days means this is a topic a community rep should be responding to. :)

[rog]

No, it's entirely false. Mobs have never randomly deaggroed

[Charismatic]

No, it's entirely false. Mobs have never randomly deaggroed

This.
Been playing this game off and on since the PS2 beta test and never ever ever ever ever had spamming abilities on a claimed enemy magically made someone lose claim. If that were possible, it'd have been fixed a hell of a lot quicker than it was because EVERYONE would be abusing that.

[Glamdring]

I do recall that they changed the claim system awhile back in response mostly to HNM claimers who would simply claim and kite until the rest of the LS showed for the kill, but I don't recall the specifics of the change, except I think that's when rage was implemented. At the time I solo'd almost exclusively on beast, and the only interest I had in HNM was behemoth hides since my main craft is leather; because of the monopolizing HNMLS's and how much they QQ when someone takes "their" mob it simply wasn't worth the aggravation of having to /blist an entire LS after I took initial claim so I stopped doing them with my social shells. They've been good enough to add much easier alternatives to behemoth materials at those levels so I don't even care about that. Also, since I did solo beast for almost my entire career I have enough KS to fight behemoths pretty much any time I feel like it.

In any event, that shows that SE is willing to fix some of the "wtf?" elements in the system. No matter how you feel about it, we all must admit there are plenty of things about it that make you go "huh?" For me it's DoT, if I'm taking damage, and I know who did it I will remain pissed at them, also some of the debuffs. This really isn't that much of an issue if they do revise it to make it realistic, most level-appropriate NMs have such high resistance to anything that even with top skill that DoT is gonna wear very fast, unlike how it acts when landed on us... Some of the debuffs should also spark hate, while they are active. How pissed do you get when para lands on you? Is there any reason to think a mob wouldn't feel the same way?

As to giving a claim away, there's really only 3 ways to do it: 1. die-death settles alot of scores, and noone is advocating getting up and still having hate established; 2. run through water-stuff that tracks by scent loses the scent this way, and eventually gives up if it can't see/hear you as well, deodorize works if you are far enough away that it can't still see/hear, thief has hide; 3. zone/flux since your bod basically disappears from the face of the earth for a time, again it can't track. A reset button won't work, whatever you did to piss it off, you still did it, and it should still be pissed, at everyone that's taken an action on it or healed someone that did..

[rog]

The change was requiring 2 consecutive actions to claim a mob that had hate on someone else.

[Glamdring]

This.
Been playing this game off and on since the PS2 beta test and never ever ever ever ever had spamming abilities on a claimed enemy magically made someone lose claim. If that were possible, it'd have been fixed a hell of a lot quicker than it was because EVERYONE would be abusing that.

point of fact, you generally can't take any hostile action on a mob once it's taken the 1st point of damage, so you couldn't spam anything but cure. I don't recall anytime you could. The biggie that I recall is that if your claim did no damage (provoke) or you had simultaneous attacks there was a chance to fight over claim until 1 side firmly established it.

[rog]

point of fact, you generally can't take any hostile action on a mob once it's taken the 1st point of damage, so you couldn't spam anything but cure. I don't recall anytime you could. The biggie that I recall is that if your claim did no damage (provoke) or you had simultaneous attacks there was a chance to fight over claim until 1 side firmly established it.
You are wrong. Damage has never played any roll whatsoever in claim.

[Glamdring]

positive that, just recently I and another guy were fighting over claims on soulflayers, and we were both whacking on it, neither of us had claim until Numbnuts (my auto) landed its 1st range attack, then it went red. I was there for a trial, he was trying to clear a pulling path for the NM, so don't know why he wanted that particular mob, but he just grabbed another without bitching about it, so it was all good.

[Alhanelem]

Aggressive actions which result in some amount of hate by players cause claim. Damage has nothing to do with it. (Further, for pets, only certain actions can cause claim). Claiming is all about hate, nothing else.

[Hoshi]

Saw another mob go white while engaged yesterday. We were trioing Ovni NIN BLM WHM (no one else around to do anything to mess w/ hate mechanics). Only the ninja was engaged. He remained engaged for the duration of the fight and was not back tanking. I guess it's possible I took hate on BLM but I was 17 away (and standing right next to the WHM) from Ovni, well within the range that he would have just moved to hit me and not deaggroed. In between melee swings by the ninja Ovni went white and then was reclaimed the next hit. I don't remember seeing engaged mobs go white before maybe a year ago?

[rog]

Claiming is all about hate, nothing else.
Unless the mob was declaimed (but not deaggroed) for whatever reason.

[Chocobits]

This.
Been playing this game off and on since the PS2 beta test and never ever ever ever ever had spamming abilities on a claimed enemy magically made someone lose claim. If that were possible, it'd have been fixed a hell of a lot quicker than it was because EVERYONE would be abusing that.

It was possible, and as I said in my post I did extensive testing on it. Claim stealing was possible on any mob by spamming spells/JA. The mob's name color never changed during the period in which claim was lost because it was a < 1 second window. Every mob had a split second window where any nearby player could perform an action on it. It was quickly ninja patched when people began posting about lost NMs.

It's cool you didn't know about it. It wasn't a widely known fact (being one of the few exploits that was hush hush, like the salvage hacks). Just because you didn't know about it =/= it didn't exist though. It doesn't matter because it doesn't exist now; I'm just stating for the record it was possible and I don't gain any kind of super reputation for pointing it out/fabricating it.

[Khiinroye]

Your automaton example is because claiming with automatons is glitched.

[Charismatic]

It was possible, and as I said in my post I did extensive testing on it. Claim stealing was possible on any mob by spamming spells/JA. The mob's name color never changed during the period in which claim was lost because it was a < 1 second window. Every mob had a split second window where any nearby player could perform an action on it. It was quickly ninja patched when people began posting about lost NMs.

It's cool you didn't know about it. It wasn't a widely known fact (being one of the few exploits that was hush hush, like the salvage hacks). Just because you didn't know about it =/= it didn't exist though. It doesn't matter because it doesn't exist now; I'm just stating for the record it was possible and I don't gain any kind of super reputation for pointing it out/fabricating it.

You are a fool. Everyone would have known about it, people spam like crazy when they see people about to wipe. It'd have been found out simply due to that.

[rog]

It was possible, and as I said in my post I did extensive testing on it. Claim stealing was possible on any mob by spamming spells/JA. The mob's name color never changed during the period in which claim was lost because it was a < 1 second window. Every mob had a split second window where any nearby player could perform an action on it. It was quickly ninja patched when people began posting about lost NMs.

It's cool you didn't know about it. It wasn't a widely known fact (being one of the few exploits that was hush hush, like the salvage hacks). Just because you didn't know about it =/= it didn't exist though. It doesn't matter because it doesn't exist now; I'm just stating for the record it was possible and I don't gain any kind of super reputation for pointing it out/fabricating it.I spent years spamming provoke on claimed mobs on the off chance the group fighting it would fuck up and let it unclaim. Never once stole a mob like that, unless they did in fact fuck up. You are wrong.

[Kya]

We all steal NMs dont lie cuz we all do it. i do all the time

[Selzak]

As you read this, I'm in your zone stealing your NMs.

[Lutschfactor]

case in point from lasnight. we were on the way to fight emperdor de altep or whatever. there was a group "fighting" it. mainly had smn pets on it. for the most part were doing ok. but as soon as the pets and smns died. they mob went running after people in thier pt. needless to say. he came unclaimed and our blm claimed it. we all stood on it like ur supposed to and killed it. long story short. they tried to pop again and have everyone stand on it. again they didnt get the kill. it unclaimed and we got it. so why does the claiming system need to change? say it does change to make the game even easier. are we gonna stand there and wait 30-45 mins while people zombie something? no it unclaimed and we showed them how to do it. they tried to learn and do it again. and failed again. system does not need to change. people need to change. people need to not suck

[Chocobits]

I spent years spamming provoke on claimed mobs on the off chance the group fighting it would fuck up and let it unclaim. Never once stole a mob like that, unless they did in fact fuck up. You are wrong.

I don't know what your definition of spamming is. Were you hitting provoke at turbo controller speed (5-10x per second) for the duration of a half hour~ fight?

Also, try anything besides provoke? My 90% success rate was with Dia. I've seen a provoke claimsteal Faf before but it's difficult to say if the other group messed up. And, as I have repeatedly said: I did extensive testing with (mostly) willing test partners and was able to reproduce a claimsteal 90% of the time. I am not somehow wrong that I got control of other people's mobs without them disengaging/running over water/being out of range/dying/dc'ing/switching mobs. This isn't a deaggro. It's a loss of claim. When the glitch happened, which is what it was, a glitch, the former party lost (most of) their hate and my 1 action made their mob begin attacking me, but they would still be affected by that mob's AoE.

It doesn't matter and I'm dropping it because I can't argue with "I couldn't do it so you're wrong", it's not an important issue to forcibly earn belief over.

So how about them current claim stealers? <resumetopic>

[rog]

This isn't a deaggro. It's a loss of claim. When the glitch happened, which is what it was, a glitch, the former party lost (most of) their hate and my 1 action made their mob begin attacking me, but they would still be affected by that mob's AoE.That is called deaggro.

deaggro= all hate is lost. This in turn also causes declaim.
declaim= claim is lost, regardless of hate.

Also, i lol'd at the idea that dia is better than provoke for "stealing" claims. half second, vs instant, yasure.

[Kaych]

War can't sub war silly.

LulzXD

Figured it was easyer to say "WAR /war" instead of "a Warrior and somone who subs /warrior".

Guessed u missed it ^_-

[blowfin]

so why does the claiming system need to change? say it does change to make the game even easier. are we gonna stand there and wait 30-45 mins while people zombie something? no it unclaimed and we showed them how to do it. they tried to learn and do it again. and failed again. system does not need to change. people need to change.

Well, judging by your posts in this thread you're happy to take something the instant it goes white regardless of the situation. It should be changed to prevent people like you from profiting from other people's work. Pretty simple. What are you doing standing over a group in the first place? Find something else to do, are you that lazy that you didn't have other options?

It's probably possible to defend the first time, but if you're going to hover and do it a second time then there's really not much else to say but your group were being jerks.

[HFX7686]

Back in the old days you used to see HNM linkshells spam cures on peoples to get on the hate list of whatever they were fighting. If they managed to pull enough hate they could pull the mob away from who was fighting it, causing the people to disengage and so forth. Supposedly, due to the mob running about wildly and the people with the claim not doing any actions and/or being too far away, the mob would flash white and could be stolen. It was quite popular to try in Behemoth's Dominion since you have such a big area to run around with King Behemoth, who was a kited mob anyway.

If I recall, back before they nerfed the BRD song hate, people used to sub BRD in an attempt to do this particular mechanic. I don't recall if such a thing actually worked since my linkshell at the time didn't do it except for once when we wanted to take a KB off some RMT group, but I did see others attempt it at other camps during the HNM camping heyday. This of course, does not mean it if worked or not, but it was quite popular for a little while, even if it were a myth. I do remember that they did add the /blockaid command during this period of time.

[Kya]

This post is pointless never going chang the calm system i hope they dont so make this game harder not like a 5 year old game

[blowfin]

awww blowfin u mad coz u had claimes taken from u...anyone on bismark. we r fighting the ironclad in altep come "steal" it...oh wait. we dont lost hate

Lulz what? Don't have any problems with mobs being taken off us because we kill them. Only issues I've ever really had have been on BST solo, the most recent being one Fistule out of about 30-40, and that's about 3 months ago now. Try again.

[Sekundes]

While I myself rarely have issues with mobs unclaiming and being stolen, I'm in agreement with Frost that it should not work that way and something should be done to change it. Perhaps everyone being dead is not the answer but surely we could agree on something a little more reasonable. SE's stance advocates poor sportsmanship and encourages mob stealing.

Some may say that the group should have done more to keep claim, I think that people should be worried about having fun and fighting the mob rather than worrying that another group waiting to pop might jack it the second it turns white for any reason. Why are so many against this change? Just how often do you yoink mobs from people who make a mistake?

I play this game because of the PVE concept. I do not play for competition between PCs nor do I want drama. If I want to butt heads with other players I'll play some other game. My purpose in this game is to get stuff and have fun doing it not worry about the possibility that the effort I put forward is going to benefit some other group with a free pop.

I know how the system works, I know how to keep a mob claimed and I rarely loose mobs to anything even when we mess up but despite how little effect this change would have on me, I feel it's worth doing just for the message it would send.

A few of you may not agree or may not share my reasoning but perhaps you could explain why you want to keep the system as is. How often would this change hurt you even if it never benefits you? I see few honorable reasons for keeping the old system the exceptions being someone taking an unreasonably long time to kill given their resources or a zombie strats.

[HFX7686]

A few of you may not agree or may not share my reasoning but perhaps you could explain why you want to keep the system as is. How often would this change hurt you even if it never benefits you? I see few honorable reasons for keeping the old system the exceptions being someone taking an unreasonably long time to kill given their resources or a zombie strats.

Mostly I believe it's a waste of developer time to be messing with the claim system when they could be doing other interesting things, especially since keeping claim is relatively simple when you do a bit of research and learn how. It just seems unimportant to change.

Plus, if you full wipe, why waste an NM? Let someone else have it. It's not like you're going to be able to get it back anyway.

[Sekundes]

Mostly I believe it's a waste of developer time to be messing with the claim system when they could be doing other interesting things, especially since keeping claim is relatively simple when you do a bit of research and learn how. It just seems unimportant to change.

Plus, if you full wipe, why waste an NM? Let someone else have it. It's not like you're going to be able to get it back anyway.

A valid point. Thanks for adding that.

As far as the wipe thing, I'm not saying that it should despawn after everyone dies. If you are all dead and that mob is unclaimed, it is beyond unreasonable to think that anyone will stand by for long enough for your group to get it together to take it down. For most mobs, it's likely that the other group will be done with it by the time you are ready to pop another anyway.

[Yugl]

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Or you could fix both problems if you're going to fix one. Sounds like the unbiased solution to me!

[Frost]

Or you could fix both problems if you're going to fix one. Sounds like the unbiased solution to me!

What's the 'other' problem, as as per your use of "both"? Zombie'ing?

The Zombie'ing problem is already "Fixed" with rage timers. And while I agree some of the timers are a little too long... They are such, I can imagine, because everyones' idea of "a reasonable amount of time" is different, and they ere on the side of 'longer' so that newer players would get a decent chance to kill something they might be unfamiliar with.

Any way you cut it, the Zombie'ing problem isn't a problem with the people zombie'ing, so much as it it with the impatient people watching it. It's why we are seeing these thefts. People think they are the solution to that problem, and just take the mob at whatever point in the fight they feel justified. I'm just as impatient as the next guy, but luckily I got plenty of other things I can do that to obsess over one mob to a point of internet thugery.

Which brings me to my next point: Irony.

I find it ironic reading about a lot of you folks talking of your days sitting at HNM camps and this and that...

Patient bunch of folks you are....

Being able to sit at three camps a day up to 3 hours per camp....

Or for three days waiting for Tiamat....

And yet... You can't find it in yourselves to sit and let some group fight a mob that at worst, has a ten minute respawn, and fifteen, to thirty, to sixty minutes before it rages and kills someone?

C'mon....

[Chocobits]

This post is pointless never going chang the calm system i hope they dont so make this game harder not like a 5 year old game

You are correct sir. That WAS the most pointless post I have ever seen. And it's not a five year old game; it's a nine year old game. Unless you meant five year old's.

And I certainly do hope they never chang the calm, that would certainly make the game harder than a five year old.


Mostly I believe it's a waste of developer time to be messing with the claim system when they could be doing other interesting things, especially since keeping claim is relatively simple when you do a bit of research and learn how. It just seems unimportant to change.

Plus, if you full wipe, why waste an NM? Let someone else have it. It's not like you're going to be able to get it back anyway.

As has been gone over, there isn't really a feasible way to change the existing claim system without causing other issues. And it wouldn't be a wise use of developer time, I agree. That was one alternative suggested.

The primary issue that needs addressing is claim stealers themselves. If the ToS doesn't allow griefing or harassment by means of a player intentionally following another player around and preventing them from attacking mobs by claiming them all (and that IS against the ToS, although it has to be proven it was intentional, which is pretty much impossible anyway), then this type of behavior should fall into a similar category. Idling near specific mobs (ones that lesser skilled/inexperienced players or even HQ players having a blond moment can lose claim to in a clearly non-wipe situation because of Charm etc) with the intention of stealing claim should be a violation of ToS, and I feel the ToS should be revised to take this into account.

In the interests of maintaining (some measure of) civility and sportsmanship, it should really be a no-brainer that people that set up shop for the sole purpose of repeatedly cashing in on the momentary misfortune of another group should be faced with consequences.

I hate analogies because they're all one-sided and twisted to fit/by the author's personal perspective, but I'll use one in this case:

A man pulls up at a convenience store in a suburban area filled with crime. There is a high rate of car break-in smash and grabs in this particular neighborhood, and so it is possible to be a victim of this at any time. Most of the locals are aware of the danger and always keep their car in a line of sight as they shop. This man is somewhat new to the neighborhood though, and doesn't understand the risks. As this man is checking out and handing his change on the clerk, he hears a loud smash. He looks out the window and sees a man attempting to break his window.

He rushes out to chase the hoodlum off. In the meantime, unbeknownst to him, there was a man idling inside the store, seemingly wandering about harmlessly. This man knows of the high car burglary rate, and makes it a habit to be ready for it. He quickly runs up to the counter and asks the clerk to bag the items the man already paid for. For some odd reason, this is perfectly acceptable. The item was already paid for, and the person who paid for it relinquished it, so it became fair game.

If the car burglary hadn't occurred and the man had finished checking out properly, the loitering man would have just loitered around the store and waited for the next potential victim. If the man checking out realized he had purchased more than he could carry (very weak point of analogy, I know but it's late and I couldn't scrape something better off the top of my head), he might not be pleased with letting someone else have his items but there's little he can do about it; that clerk doesn't give refunds, so he would have grudgingly relinquished some items to the loiterer. Since it isn't uncommon for people to purchase more than they can carry, nobody really cares if someone else comes along and gets the leftovers (there's your wipe analogy). Some people are offended by the fact that the clerk lets the loitering man take the items of the people that rush out to protect their vehicle though.

So yeah, a really weird, weak, twisted and one-sided analogy about how (I feel) camping on top of charm/etc mobs for an opportunity at taking someone else's hard work (and by camping I mean habitually, as in repeat offender) is wrong and should be punishable.

[Kya]

see like ppl Cry over pop that they Fail so make it easyer

[Lutschfactor]

its not "stealing" when the mob is white. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Lutschfactor]

[Frost ]I find it ironic reading about a lot of you folks talking of your days sitting at HNM camps and this and that...

Patient bunch of folks you are....

Being able to sit at three camps a day up to 3 hours per camp....

Or for three days waiting for Tiamat....
[/QUOTE]

its called bots

[Bigboy]

see like ppl Cry over pop that they Fail so make it easyer

I musta missed how people were requesting the fights to be easier. But it may be that I can't understand you because you write so poorly. I hope I have responded appropriately to what you were trying to say... one of us is gonna look like an idiot.

[Bigboy]

its not "stealing" when the mob is white. get the fuck over yourselves and hold hate. read on other forums on how to do things so u dont lose hate. when people lose hate and we claim. we show them how to kill the mob. its not our fault they suck at the game and cant keep hate. why punish the good people and shells with loseres that r wasting our time?

It's not "open game" when the mob is white. get the fuck over yourselves and build your own popsets. Read on other forums about how dickish mob stealing is and how the system is bugged to allow it. When you lose hate and I claim, you get pissed at being talked down to on how to do a fight you are capable of, but had a mob stolen from you before you could finish. Why punish the good people and shells by allowing people to steal mobs and waste all our time spent farming pops.

I swear, some people think that having to wait 15 minutes for a group to kill something somehow entitles them to the kill should claim be lost. You think they are wasting your time? When you value your 15 minutes of waiting over all the time it took to build the popset, you're being a prick. You have to be THE MOST ARROGANT player to think you have the right to decide when another group is done and you are entitled to the spoils of their labor. I mean really, by your logic, I should go around collecting gil taxes from everyone who wastes my time or people remotely less geared or skilled than me.

[svengalis]

This post is pointless never going chang the calm system i hope they dont so make this game harder not like a 5 year old game

You mean like the writing in your post? Changing the claim system doesn't make the game easier it makes it less frustrating.

[Hoshi]

You mean like the writing in your post? Changing the claim system doesn't make the game easier it makes it less frustrating.

Yeah but Kya isn't worried about the claim system... they keep posting about the calm system!

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's not "open game" when the mob is white. get the fuck over yourselves and build your own popsets. Read on other forums about how dickish mob stealing is and how the system is bugged to allow it. When you lose hate and I claim, you get pissed at being talked down to on how to do a fight you are capable of, but had a mob stolen from you before you could finish. Why punish the good people and shells by allowing people to steal mobs and waste all our time spent farming pops.

I swear, some people think that having to wait 15 minutes for a group to kill something somehow entitles them to the kill should claim be lost. You think they are wasting your time? When you value your 15 minutes of waiting over all the time it took to build the popset, you're being a prick. You have to be THE MOST ARROGANT player to think you have the right to decide when another group is done and you are entitled to the spoils of their labor. I mean really, by your logic, I should go around collecting gil taxes from everyone who wastes my time or people remotely less geared or skilled than me.

If they (a group fighting a NM) failed to hold claim with no outside intervention a GM won't do crap about them losing a NM because, any other party claiming said NM has done nothing wrong. If harrassment/griefing was involved then sure complain all you want, but if a group failed for w/e reason to maintain hate on a mob then they only have themselves to blame.

EDIT: Do you also take 6 hours to build popsets?

[Habiki]

You mean like the writing in your post? Changing the claim system doesn't make the game easier it makes it less frustrating.

Less frustrating for groups that suck, while making groups that are capable of doing the fights with no issues, have to sit around for 45 minutes waiting for a group to kill something as simple as Blazing Eruca.

Best way to fix this is add more ??? marks for all NMs like they did for the empyrian mobs, that way groups don't have a need to steal your mobs because you take forever to kill them and can't keep your members alive to keep claim.

[Bigboy]

If they (a group fighting a NM) failed to hold claim with no outside intervention a GM won't do crap about them losing a NM because, any other party claiming said NM has done nothing wrong. If harrassment/griefing was involved then sure complain all you want, but if a group failed for w/e reason to maintain hate on a mob then they only have themselves to blame.

EDIT: Do you also take 6 hours to build popsets?

Does anyone take 6 hours to kill something in Abyssea? See how stupid questions don't actually get us anywhere?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Please read the question again, admittedly sarcasm doesn't travel well over the intarwebs, because your reply makes no sense.

[Chikamatsu]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

The whole concept of "I has Apoc atma now you must watch us zombie our NM after we wipe" is extremely annoying and time wasting to others who are wanting to kill said NM. By doing so, you are effectively holding a mob while everyone homepoints to come back. Is this not against ToS? (Geniune question, should prolly look up) This method negatively impacts on everyones Gameplay experiance and is generally a pain in the ass. If you go down, you lost. Game over.

If before it even gets to that point, you lose claim, your obviously not doing something right and should learn to establish and maintain hate.

[Chocobits]

This thread became childish all of a sudden.

I think everyone is missing the point:

One answer to losing claim is to suck less. That might not be a viable option for newer groups, and those groups have a right to experience Abyssea content as well.

Also, we're not talking about one-time claims. We're talking about people that set up shop in front of nm ??? that use charm, with the specific intention of waiting for possible loss of claim to repeatedly, over and over and over again, steal people's mobs. Stop with the "so if I see a group wiping and I take their mob I'm cheating right?" analogies.

Also, can we get a moderator in here to remove all posts condoning botting? They're just troll food. I was there at king camps for 7-9 hours a day, and I didn't bot. I was afk until window watching anime or something, but those few seconds~ when window was open (or by our best approximate guess it was if we didn't have ToD for some reason), I was there spamming.

But here, check this out right, I'm going to give you my LS policy on claiming:

Unless it's a full wipe, we don't take others' mobs. It's their pop, their work and we respect that. If we feel a need to "teach them how to fight a mob", we do it after they have no chance of recovery, and then we offer them some of the drops. Instead of "teaching someone how to fight a mob", you should be taking lessons from us on how to be a human being.

[Chikamatsu]

Something about using the phrase "you're not doing something right" and misspelling "you're" almost seems ironic.

Excuse me while I go sit in the corner and slit my wrists. :(

[Habiki]

Excuse me while I go sit in the corner and slit my wrists. :(

I think all the players in this forum whining should go join you.

[Kya]

They should.....

[Frost]

I think all the players in this forum whining should go join you.

There's so much irony in this statement it hurts lol

[Hoshi]

Are your posts somehow more relevant if you swear like a sailor?

[Chocobits]

What the heck is going on with this thread lol. Half the posts being deleted weren't even offensive, just the ones from Kya/Lutschfactor.

Going a bit overboard mods, and it's ruining the continuity of the thread.

[Zyeriis]

There is definently something wrong with the mods today when page 19 is half removed but still has a ton of inflammatory and "you're stupid lolololol" posts on it that weren't. Report Button Spam go go go! Seriously, report this post, I want to see it get removed for no reason while blatantly inflammatory posts get left as they are.

[Habiki]

What the heck is going on with this thread lol. Half the posts being deleted weren't even offensive, just the ones from Kya/Lutschfactor.

Going a bit overboard mods, and it's ruining the continuity of the thread.

I'm thinking it wasn't just kya/luts it looks like most of your posts are getting deleted as well.

[Baccanale]

Greetings, everyone!
First of all, I wanted to thank everyone that has participated with discussing the claim system in this thread. Unfortunately, it seems that the conversation has gone quite off-topic, which is why this thread will now be closed. I understand how heated these discussions can be, but the main purpose of these forums is to discuss matters in relation to the subject of the thread. I understand how easy it can be for tempers, as well as the point of the thread, to be lost as the thread and the number of participants grows, and when things get out of hand, that is where moderators have to step in. I hope all of you continue to participate in thoughtful and civil discussions about the game, since it will benefit all of us as a community. Take care, and good luck!