Treasure Hunter Job Traits?

[Kennocha]

I am curious as to what impact the treasure hunter job traits of these two do:

Treasure Hunter II
Treasure Hunter III

I had expected it to work like gear the enhances TH and increase the add effect by one, but these traits do not seem to do this? My TH effectiveness is always base level 3 even at level 15?

Any thoughts? Really can't find anything useful online quite yet.

[thefinalrune]

I think its generally accepted that TH2 and TH3 are just individual TH+1 traits. The TH proc counter more or less confirms this since with no TH+ gear your first proc as a level 90 Thief is always TH4.

[Laphine]

hmm i thought it was generally accepted that each TH trait is 50% increase in drop rate. Since we can't have THII or THIII without the lower ones this implies that THII is 100% increase and THIII is 150% increase on drop rate. TH+ gear is also said to represent 1% increase to drop rate on top of the traits. This means that TH+ doesn't represent much of an increase on common drops, but on rare stuff, they can be more worthwhile than the traits.

IMO SE only did implement TH boosts they way they did because players already followed that nomenclature.

[Xanthe]

Each TH trait or TH+ from equipment adds to the base level that is applied to a target. The base is applied on the first hit against a target with no message of any kind in the log. Any THF having any level of TH has a chance to subsequently increment the TH level on any hit up to once per attack round or WS. Increments are the only time TH information is shown in the log, though this will not show up for procs during a WS. This is easily testable solo:

- Melee a target with TH3 only (no equipment or signet/atma) until proc shows in the log (TH = 4)
- Swap in Knife/Armlets/Poulaines for one attack round, then remove again (Assumption: TH = 6)
- Continue to melee with TH3 only (no equipment or signet/atma) until proc shows in the log (TH = 7)

Even though it never showed TH = 6 in the log, your next increment shows TH = 7 because the highest base value is always applied on the first hit regardless of proc. If there is a proc on the first hit the log will reflect base+1.

In Kennocha's case, seeing a TH = 3 as his first proc at level 15 is not surprising as that is TH1 base trait plus Treasure Hound kupopower plus the first increment proc.

As for Laphine's comments, the log feedback that we have been provided disproves any variance between the effect of TH traits and TH+ gear. They both simply add to the base TH level applied to a target. What the effect of those levels is can now be more effectively tested thanks to having a quantifiable level of TH on a target.

[Laphine]

I don't see how? the only way to prove that traits and boosts (and gear+) are equal is thru real test. I am talking about the effect they provide. I agree that TH trait + gear + boosts define a TH level, a level whose only purpose it's so lower TH values do not overwrite higher ones. However, i doubt their effect is the same, and old tests (my reference) have shown this.

[Nebo]

Treasure Hunter is a lie. It's a number on a screan that SE gave us so that THF could feel worth a melee slot :D

All kidding aside, don't you think it's time they actually told us how treasure hunter works from their perspective? It's not mystical or cool or fun to have all these stats in a game that you cannot see (Hai2U Accuracy).


OO OO SE put that in the new PC UI:eek:

[Arcon]

hmm i thought it was generally accepted that each TH trait is 50% increase in drop rate. Since we can't have THII or THIII without the lower ones this implies that THII is 100% increase and THIII is 150% increase on drop rate. TH+ gear is also said to represent 1% increase to drop rate on top of the traits. This means that TH+ doesn't represent much of an increase on common drops, but on rare stuff, they can be more worthwhile than the traits.

I don't think it's generally accepted, because it is clearly wrong. That would mean a previous 40% drop item would turn into a 100% drop rate (and that's with TH3 only).

It's not entirely proven that trait TH and gear TH is the same thing (all we know it provides the same TH base level, which is shown in the chatlog). It could be possible that the TH trait has additional properties, that TH gear doesn't posess. However, to my knowledge no testing has ever shown any indication of this, and would, in fact, be extremely hard to test. My guess is they do exactly the same thing, why SE would have the Treasure Hunter effect differ from the display in the chatlog kinda defeats the whole purpose of displaying it in the first place. Why go through the effort of implementing something that shows us something wrong in the end?

I believe it's commonly accepted that each trait upgrade stacks with each gear upgrade, and the total is the TH value you have, which is used to calculate drop chances.

[Laphine]

How is it wrong? are you sure drop rate doesn't cap unlike so many other stats in the game? Maybe it does at something like 95%. An 800% increase in the drop rate of something that naturaly drops 50% of the time won't mean shit then.

Considering so many other traits in the game, TH trait with a high natural value and gear adding 1% on that seems pretty logical to me. Our gear says "Treasure Hunter" +1. Any other gear that increases the effect of a trait by a numbered amount changes that trait by such amount. Counter+1 increases counter chance in 1%. The base counter is 10% though, we don't get an extra 10% (making it 20%) with counter +1.

Still, I said generally accepted because the tests that conclused both ideas are linked on the wiki. Considering the wiki is the most known medium, it's not unreasonable to expect those ideas being the most common ones. But i guess ppl tend to prefer mounth to mounth anecdote.

Although i expected it to be accepted as such, i'm not saying THII is without a doubt an increase of 100% in drop rate. In reality there was a thread on BG back in july last year where a "new" theory was proposed and pretty much proven due the super high samples used (closing 10k kills). Enedin, the one to propose the 100% increase with TH2, was also there discussing this new understanding that was based on TH adding new chances of an item to drop. They only compared TH0 vs THII, and the numbers did seem to converge. Here (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/95489-TH-testing-final-results?p=3944899&viewfull=1#post3944899) is the conclusion on that. Still TH+ gear and boosts were never taken into consideration. Maybe they do work the same way. This means that with TH10 we have 10 extras rolls to try to make an item drop.

[Seshomaru0214]

Thats a really good way of looking at it with the rolls and all on drops because even with those really rare drops 10% and under even TH10 wouldnt garuntee a drop. personally most i ever proced was TH11 on Rani no blue yellow or red was procured and was definately not full moon (which i heard increases drop rate (not sure if thats true)) and he dropped everything and the kitchen sink, may have just been luck but the whole idea of each TH level basically being liked you get another chance for the item to be selected and loaded into drops sounds pretty realistic.

[noodles355]

hmm i thought it was generally accepted that each TH trait is 50% increase in drop rate. Since we can't have THII or THIII without the lower ones this implies that THII is 100% increase and THIII is 150% increase on drop rate. TH+ gear is also said to represent 1% increase to drop rate on top of the traits. This means that TH+ doesn't represent much of an increase on common drops, but on rare stuff, they can be more worthwhile than the traits.

IMO SE only did implement TH boosts they way they did because players already followed that nomenclature.
This was the case before the TH update. TH1 and TH2 added 50% drop rate, Knife and Armlets added 1% each. There were comprehensive tests done on it.

This isn't how it works now, obviosuly, but it is how it used to work.

[Covenant]

I believe any "+1" or "enhances" is the old % where a player is given only .10 increase. Many gears and description share this slight bonus. So at best, if there is no treasure hunter cap would be a +60% or 70%.

[noodles355]

What you believe is irrelevant. Sorry, but very comprehensive tests were done in Misereaux coast years ago confirming that TH1 and TH2 both added a 50% increase in drop rate, and Armlets and Knife added around 1% each. Ther is of course the possibility that there was a cap on drop rate below 100%, which is why with TH2 (+100%, or double) an item with 50% or higher drop rate could still not drop, however the general rule is still the same.

It's irrelevant anyway as both gear and traits just increase the starting TH level by 1 now. What the difference in drop rate with each level is has yet to be determined. But a TH trait adds +1 on the starting level, and equipment also adds +1. As does atma.

I really wish people would stop posting ideas and theories about something that was proven years ago. If you want to see the data have a hunt through allakhazam. The original tests were on there. And no, I'm not going to spend a few hours to find them for you.

[Laphine]

I always believed that was the case Noodles. Except that BG thread last year really did prove otherwise (there were samples bearing 10k kills over there). TH traits - the only thing that was tested, especifically, TH2 - works like adding new rolls to an item. This is actually better than a simple 100% increase most times.

We could extrapolate this and say TH3 adds yet another roll to the table to a total of 4: the first try (TH0), the TH1 try, the TH2 try and the TH3 try. We can't extrapole this to gear, atma, and the TH boosts, however. The tests never compromised them in any way. These boosts could even work like the old way of thinking, being a straight 1% increase on drop rate. This is an interesting thing to test now i guess.

[Arcon]

I'm still having a hard time believing that trait TH somehow behaves differently from gear TH or any additional TH from either Kupower, Atma or upgrades. I'll have some time to play again soon, then I'll do some testing on it.

I still think people underestimate how powerful additional rolls are. Even with only TH3, it would turn 50% drop rate into almost 100% drop rate, bar cap (which I don't think there is, personally). I know it's a lot of assumptions on my part as well, I'm just finding it hard to believe. I'll do some of my own testing to make sure.

To play around with some numbers:
http://ffxiut.com/th

[Michae]

I think we should just all agree that even though we do not know how it works we know that it does. Thf was my first job when I started 5 years ago and thf is still mainly what I play today and I can tell you th makes a difference, how I do not know, but it does. Even my th6 base compared to my roomies th5 base makes a diff in the rate we each get drops when it comes to minor things like getting coffer keys or unlit lanterns or drops from nm, such as spell scrolls we have been farming for his blm due to the out of hand price of them lately on the ah.

And since I know it works, and works well. We can do all the testing we want and still wont know until se tells us. I have noticed alot of things during my years of play that contradict the testing thats been done on TH and other things.

However I must say it still gives me delight when ppl in a pt swear up and down the thf can die without loosing th or just have to be in the pt for th to be in effect and watch the drop rates go from nil to nearly everything when I survive a fight and get th on the nm.