FFXI Job Direction?? Dev Team, Please Respond. [Archive]

Leonlionheart

05-31-2011, 10:32 AM

I'm sure this will come in update notes like they always have.

That being said, I think it's safe to assume that they will continue the current trend:
WAR: heavy hitting and unbelievably high tp gain, no real defense and stupid high enmity gain.
MNK: high dps but slower tp gain, defensive.
WHM: cure better than thou
BLM: nuke better than thou
RDM: debuff better than thou
THF: TH better than thou
PLD: lol
DRK: I assume they'll continue to try to buff both sides of DRK, damage and magic, although probably to no avail.
BST: hard to say since nothing has really been added to bst but stronger jug pets
BRD: can't go wrong with capping haste, so no matter what SE does unless RDM gets Haste II for 40%+ haste SE doesn't really need to give anything to BRD to be able to keep it's place in parties.
RNG: increase damage output to offset the loss of no haste. rng TH shot was unforseen, maybe they will add more to that
SAM: increase SC and MB damage from their SC i assume. Maybe native regain?
NIN: hard to say, they've had some pretty substantial upgrades since 75. Reduce TP gain more maybe.
DRG: more heavy hitting but no defensive side. updates to the forced breath abilities maybe
SMN: really needs ALOT to make it comparative to any other job atm, and SE seems to be giving it nothing but trash and niceties that aren't really needed.
BLU: this job has a lot already, heavy nuke damage, heavy physical spell damage, and more MP efficient (and more powerful) cures than both RDM and SCH atm. It could use a new head butt though.
COR: has gotten quite a bit since 75, although it's still nothing compared to BRD.
PUP: lol
SCH: has gotten a lot since 75, a lot more buffing and nuking power but has strayed away from the curing side. this might be it's direction
DNC: needs waltz recast reduction. Maybe SE will help them out in that department D:

anyway speculation based off of how SE has handled things since 75.

Seriha

05-31-2011, 10:56 AM

Asked for similar a bit back, but it pretty much went ignored. The fact we're supposed to get some kind of 'Job Adjustments' in June according the plan would suggest something is in the pipes, but for all we know that just be a few minor tweaks while some jobs need many and major. I'm still waiting for them to make on their promise to overpower some jobs to emphasize their vision of them. We arguably got a hint of that with WHM and its current curative prowess, while other jobs like MNK and WAR could be open for debate depending on how you consider the availability of Emp WS, which from my perspective, are still kind of rare on Sylph.

Soundwave

05-31-2011, 11:17 PM

B B B B B B B BUMP

Eeek

05-31-2011, 11:38 PM

Nebo

06-01-2011, 01:57 AM

- SAM, MNK, and WAR will receive ridiculous DD buffs.
- PLD will receive more seemingly-random buffs as SE desperately tries to find a way to make it the only 'real' tank.
- NIN will be somehow adjusted and 'discouraged' from tanking.
- THF will be nerfed by accident. Repeatedly.
- RDM and BRD scare SE and they will not receive a substantive adjustment.
- PUP and BST confuse SE too much to receive a substantive, relevant adjustment.
- BLM will continue to receive new nukes that cap their enmity and drain 1/2 their MP pool in one nuke.
- WHM will continue to exclusively receive new and higher-tier curative spells and abilities.
- BLU and COR will wait and hope that they strike gold and their new spells/rolls are actually useful. It's always hit or miss for them.
- DRG will receive another jump or two. Why? Just because.
- SE will consider introducing a Level 49 level cap on SCH and DNC.
- DRK was scheduled to receive an adjustment, but SE kept missing the deadline.

You forgot about RNG DD. That's ok. So did SE.

BAZINGA!

Edit:

THF will get a new useless steal job ability that shares a recast timer with Mug.

FTFY

All joking aside though, I am quite interested an optomisitic about some of these job adjustments. Many of the things that have gone into the game recently have come directly from suggestions and conversations on these boards.

And while there are some completely ridiculous ideas flowing around, they seem to only go with the good ones, and it has been an improvement overall, imo.

Edit 2:

Oh wow, just reread that link...I almost forgot that they promised to fix perfect dodge back in 2006 lol.....yeah. Here's hoping. Mind you the idea they listed there is full of suck. Maybe that's why they scrapped it.

Malamasala

06-01-2011, 02:04 AM

SMN: really needs ALOT to make it comparative to any other job atm, and SE seems to be giving it nothing but trash and niceties that aren't really needed.

Can we just sticky this at the top of the forum so the Developers don't accidentally forget it like every single update?

The job is just utter failure.

1. It has almost exclusively defensive wards, but they are all so terrible that in 10 years playing, I've been in the tank party 3 times.
2. You have(had) access to all high level BLM spells, but attached to spirits with the limitations of random spells every 30 seconds after you engaged a monster. (Statistically speaking the only thing living longer than 30 seconds is NMs). Majority of NMs use AOE moves that either kill the spirit, silence the spirit, stun the spirit, or interrupt it.
3. It has ALL debuffs the game has to offer, but never use them because they share the same timer as either the DD pacts or the buff/cure pacts.
4. It shares almost all armors except job specific with BLM. It doesn't use ANY of the shared armors because they don't help SMN.

And that is just the 4 most obvious design flaws. (Why make a defensive support job that nobody wants? Why add nukes that you can't use? Why the gigantic global recast on stuff other jobs have split recasts? Why add new armors without purpose?)

Someone should just rename the job to Masochist Mage. (Alternatively Predator Claw mage)

Glamdring

06-01-2011, 03:20 AM

Can we just sticky this at the top of the forum so the Developers don't accidentally forget it like every single update?

The job is just utter failure.

1. It has almost exclusively defensive wards, but they are all so terrible that in 10 years playing, I've been in the tank party 3 times.
2. You have(had) access to all high level BLM spells, but attached to spirits with the limitations of random spells every 30 seconds after you engaged a monster. (Statistically speaking the only thing living longer than 30 seconds is NMs). Majority of NMs use AOE moves that either kill the spirit, silence the spirit, stun the spirit, or interrupt it.
3. It has ALL debuffs the game has to offer, but never use them because they share the same timer as either the DD pacts or the buff/cure pacts.
4. It shares almost all armors except job specific with BLM. It doesn't use ANY of the shared armors because they don't help SMN.

And that is just the 4 most obvious design flaws. (Why make a defensive support job that nobody wants? Why add nukes that you can't use? Why the gigantic global recast on stuff other jobs have split recasts? Why add new armors without purpose?)

Someone should just rename the job to Masochist Mage. (Alternatively Predator Claw mage)

lol, watched a 72 smn/blm once trying to raise with light spirit (yes, it does have raise). Guy kept the thing out for a few minutes, it just buffed itself and he eventually ran out of MP. so he rested, warped, /whm, came back, raised the corpse, resummoned the light spirit and the 2 of them just sat there belittling it in shout until it depopped. one of the funniest moments I've ever seen playing this game.

Nebo

06-01-2011, 03:26 AM

I noticed the link you posted was from 2006.

They did one of these in 2010 as well, in case you haven;t seen it?

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=21769

Glamdring

06-01-2011, 03:50 AM

as to job direction...

pup: the only things we can be absoutely certain of; whm AI will never be fixed, scanner will never be made to function, rdm pup will remain capped at level 72 and harlequin at 50.

Beast: all depends on where the majority of new content is placed. If it's in Abyssea then all we'll get is new jugs, outside then we might get a tame or charm upgrade

Bard: a new tier to haste and elegy, if we are lucky, threnody II; oh, we'll also get another tier of requiem... that every mob over level 65 is still immune to.

Thief: Mug II, essentially Mug with shield/weapon bash included. Gil Finder II, very handy since nothing in Abyssea HAS gil.

Dancer: honestly? expect a nerf.

Paladin: expect some type of JA that allows it to absorb hate from the party or else suppress hate gain by other party members; it won't work and DD will just use it as an excuse to go all out on damage... kinda like they do now in abyssea.

monk: JA Grapple, causes a bind effect with DoT-on par with Bio II, reduces enemy evasion on par with gravity

ranger: lots of needs, but I would only expect some new ammo recipies, with relatively easy ingredients. Oh, and maybe a new end-game level X-bow

corsair: SE has no idea how to make this a loved job. expect reduced price on cards and maybe something that allows you to barrage.

scholar: raisega, warpga

red mage: just another tier of elemental nukes and 1 more level of cure, MAYBE an enhanced stoneskin

white mage: a JA that allows you to remove weakness from 1 party member... by taking it on yourself. Usable only when you don't have weakness, so 5 minute recast

ninja: Utsusemi: San, 'nuff said

warrior: some type of tier 2 defender

black mage: Curse, kinda like break (a 15 second earth-based sleep), this'll essentially be like a 15 second Bad Breath

blue mage: some type of revampped 2 hour, otherwise just some heavy-duty spells, maybe 1 for much higher defense.

dark: a native refresh trait, a couple of dark based debuffs

sam: regain, prolly 1/tic

dragoon: upgrade to wyvern defense, magic defense and melee damage, nothing for the master

summoner: expect something on your bloodpact timers. Since it won't be instantaneous, expect the summoners to still bitch about it. also, expect a new avatar, prolly bahamut, at 99 only, and he'll be along the lines of Odin/Alexander- a 1 and done.

AyinDygra

06-01-2011, 04:27 AM

These forums are as close as we'll get to a direct line of communication with the developers. These are exactly the topics we should be hearing back from them on. SE has been far too secretive in regards to future planning in relation to jobs in particular. We get about 2 weeks notice before changes occur with major version updates. Maybe we'll get a sentence or two at a Fanfest developer panel. Perhaps it's Japanese culture or something, about saying they're planning something that they later decide against, and end up scrapping it... that they think it would be embarrassing? I think it would show good sense if they can either discard bad ideas, or run with good ones.

Keeping everything in development a secret until it has been fully developed, programmed, and then unveiled to the public before getting feedback, will continue to lead to "issues" with implementation that could have been avoided with community input. Some elements that, once programmed, are "too difficult to change" due to the extensive revisions necessary, even if they wanted to, become impossible (or not cost effective) to change.

Such posts would also drive community conversation in directions that are compatible with the vision of the development team. We've seen this in several threads on this board (too few so far, but good examples are: the crafting skill cap increase thread, the revised 2hour abilities thread, and Corsair 11 rolls thread) If players feel that the development team is taking the jobs in undesirable directions, they can get that feedback too. Without posts stating the direction and vision of the development team, players have to "assume" the direction, and make plans accordingly. They may think "Past FF games (the most logical frame of reference) have shown 'this job' to do 'this', so that's where SE must be headed. I'll play 'this job', because I enjoy that style of play. That's the direction I want to go too."

For some jobs, (like White Mage,) that's a pretty easy trend to look at... best healers in the game. Some are "balanced" already and don't want to see changes, but know they're coming anyway as the level cap keeps going to 99, (like Monk.) Some jobs have needed certain "fixes" (some small, some quite large) for a long time with no resolution within sight. (like Puppetmaster's automaton AI)

What are the developers thoughts? What are they thinking/planning? Do they acknowledge the issues at hand? (We don't even have to know what they're really "doing", but what direction they're headed would be nice.) The more detail the better. Also, the more interaction the better. Clearly it's best for them to be working on getting things into the game, but maybe they should schedule some meaningful time each week for community interaction. For all we know, maybe they already do this, but the amount of feedback that we're getting on these (English) boards leads one to think they're mainly using the boards to release "twitter-like" advertisements about upcoming version updates while giving lots of "that's too difficult/time consuming to change" answers to feedback threads, which, while quite possibly is the honest reason for the dismissal of the idea presented, makes us wonder what IS worth the time and effort? What direction ARE they going in?

Saving these revelations for version updates isn't the best idea, in my opinion.

Aldersyde

06-01-2011, 05:45 AM

PUP and BST confuse SE too much to receive a substantive, relevant adjustment

I've always felt that SE won't give bst significant buff because they are too concerned with making them too strong and upsetting their conception of game balance. Consequently, this fear makes them bend over backwards to make sure they don't get significant buffs. I'm not saying bst is weak, I love bst, but I do believe bst gets shafted a lot compared to other melee dds.

My prediction for bst is that by lvl 99 is that we still won't be able to charm in the prime xp area (Abyssea), they still won't have a ws better than rampage (lol at Cloudsplitter and building Farsha), and our best jug will be a damn crab again (although the vnm version would be pretty cool). Personally, I hope for an ability to charm large mob via ability or trait, or large mob jug pets but with the way SE has adjusted bst in the past, I can't see it happening. Doesn't matter though, I'll still play and love bst.

Seriha

06-01-2011, 08:04 AM

BSTs will pretty much need to accept that their future will likely lie in jugs, and to be blunt, it's for the better.

1) "Everyone who subs BST is better than BST main!"
A common argument prior to Abyssea. All you needed was your BST the same level or higher and the only real penalty you faced was not getting Leave until 70. Some need to try to get over the concept of being a WAR with a pet, too. Jugs offer a diversity WARs lack, even though Sic point costs could probably use some work.

2) "There's nothing to charm in endgame areas!"
In part, one could surmise that some NMs were isolated because SE wanted the focus to be on that mob. Could they have put non-aggro critters nearby? Perhaps. But this basically leads into the following...

3) With enough appropriately leveled mobs to throw at an NM, a BST (or group of them) is basically invincible.
This is largely why you don't see Charm as an option in Abyssea. Fast respawns, usually plenty of mobs at a camp, and you can level them up. Add a dash of Familiar and the ability to restore your 2 hour easily and BSTs could reliably hold VT+ mobs for half hour stints. Even without that, you basically reintroduce problem 1 while things like atma and temp meds further boost longevity of both the pet and master.

Jugs basically solve all three of those problems, while carrying perks like atma transfer and the ability to control TP moves used or completely dump your own enmity via Snarl. Plus you don't have to worry about claim system drama like when using Charm. Now, I know some might not like the pets available, the expense, or even Call Beast's recast timer, but if skewed too much you basically recreate problem 3, just replace charmed mob availability with as many jugs as you can carry (which can be a lot with 240 potential inventory slots).

Alhanelem

06-01-2011, 08:16 AM

The bowels of hell. That's where it's heading.

Hoshi

06-01-2011, 08:21 AM

You forgot about RNG DD. That's ok. So did SE.

BAZINGA!

I think I love you lol.

Duelle

06-01-2011, 08:38 AM

These forums are as close as we'll get to a direct line of communication with the developers. These are exactly the topics we should be hearing back from them on.You'd think so, but save for a topic on the DRG forums, I don't think the devs have actually said much of anything. Those of us with ongoing discussions *coughredmagecough* are curious to see if anyone from SE is lurking in our threads.

Nebo

06-01-2011, 09:59 AM

I think I love you lol.

:o

3) With enough appropriately leveled mobs to throw at an NM, a BST (or group of them) is basically invincible. This is largely why you don't see Charm as an option in Abyssea.

I'd be inclined to agree with this reasoning if DD + WHM couldn't already kill everything in Abyssea, with lot sof jobs capable of soloing.

Greatguardian

06-01-2011, 10:05 AM

You'd think so, but save for a topic on the DRG forums, I don't think the devs have actually said much of anything. Those of us with ongoing discussions *coughredmagecough* are curious to see if anyone from SE is lurking in our threads.

If they actually reply positively to the RDM subforum's melee crowd, I will gladly toss my Duelist's Chapeau. Destroying the most powerful mage in the game, one Accuracy buff at a time.

Luvbunny

06-01-2011, 10:14 AM

Beast is actually pretty good now, perhaps SE can add more DD gears and raise up a little of their damage output. Another small tweaks could be to lower the call beast timer, add more HP to jug pets, slightly raised jug pet attack, give a bit more boost to reward results, and give us stout servant 3 + 4. With those minor tweaks, BST is perfect, a DD that use pet to add overall damage output.

As for Summoner, the job is not in a really bad state. SE could tweak the duration of the buffs so that they are actually useful... make hastega last 8 minutes, stoneskin already last very long - could absorb a lot more damage, whispering wind + spring water heal at least 500-600 hp basically slightly make all of our buffs pact better and longer. Another tweak would be if you have the elemental avatar out, party would gain "bar+elemental" aura status, maybe around 30-40, not enough to offset the ones from whm but good enough as nice added bonus (and stack with WHM and BARD spell). Tweak the Avatar favor by expanding its radius to 20 yalms, and make avatar DD physical to be 15% less than normal. Summoner needs to have Auto Refresh 1-4, or give us more MP if you keep it the way it is. Give us Stout Servant 2 as job traits at 90. And lastly, make our merited tier 2 BP to be able to proc only either red or blue based on damage type (slashing, piercing, etc). At least with that, SMN can add a bit more of usefulness as buffer via BP or Avatar Favor (even just having avatar out can help give party a "bar+element" status), can do a bit of DD if needed via BP Rage, and can actually help with proc weakness.

Duelle

06-01-2011, 12:19 PM

If they actually reply positively to the RDM subforum's melee crowd, I will gladly toss my Duelist's Chapeau. Destroying the most powerful mage in the game, one Accuracy buff at a time.I'd probably be so happy I'd make a tribute video. Then again, like almost everything in FFXI, there would be a "but" attached to it.

Soundwave

06-01-2011, 12:34 PM

I noticed the link you posted was from 2006.

They did one of these in 2010 as well, in case you haven;t seen it?

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=21769

Ya I saw this one but I did not include this because it happen so fast. With the old one from 06 they at least gave time for feedback, instead of here is everything enjoy sorry if its broken and you don't like it.

Also AyinDygra post was exactly the posts I was looking for and hope SE looks at that as well.

Last, I would hope we get a type of response but in the mean time don't let this thread fall behind.

Ravenmore

06-01-2011, 12:51 PM

Theres a quick and dirty way to fix rng. Remove the sweet spot, add fools gold to mobs outside of unions maybe even in gold boxs. Not perfect but least haste then becomes a decent stat for them, no reason to pass them over in exp parties. Also get ride of times on blu proc or make it were 2 or 3 differnt type of WSs can proc blu at any time slot.

Aldersyde

06-01-2011, 05:21 PM

:o I'd be inclined to agree with this reasoning if DD + WHM couldn't already kill everything in Abyssea, with lot sof jobs capable of soloing.

Basically this. How could bst having charm in Abyssea areas break any type of game balance when other jobs are capable of even more broken feats (unlimited mp, sky high crit rate, empyrean weaponskills that do god-mode damage)? Last time I checked, one of the primary complaints of the community was that Abyssea nms were too easy. If this really is the case, what real advantage would bst have over other jobs in Abyssea if they had the ability to charm mobs?

I believe it's especially silly that in a zone filled with natural enemies, charm is useless. Abyssea might be the current end game loot zone but it's also the primary xp zone. It makes no sense to bsts who have leveled the old school way (charming mobs) to go into a zone slated for xp and not be able to play the game the way they have always played it. Some bsts choose the job for the sole reason they could do it solo. There's tonnes of camps in Abyssea filled with natural enemies that are never occupied because most players gravitate to camps with the easiest, least threatening mobs. Why make these camps if hardly anyone uses them? The majority of bsts would make use of these underused camps rather than popular camps in Abyssea, at least that's how old school bsts worked previously.

If its a matter of Abyssea's mechanics, i can accept that. To most bsts though, having their prime job ability stripped away from them in the premier locale for xp is a slap in the face. Putting in the same work as other empyrean weapons and having the weapon skill be barely better than our nyzul ws is a slap to the other cheek.

Hoshi

06-02-2011, 12:01 AM

Even with those suggestions I don't see my linkshell using ranger in abyssea. SE would have to make it so that ranger could cover multiple reds and had atmas equivalent to the melee ones before ranger would get used for anything other than the rare blue party. It will be interesting to see if 99 is once again outside of abyssea in which case ranger might be useful for some fights again... that would be nice.

Malamasala

06-02-2011, 01:04 AM

The problem as always is that half of you use "useful" as a synonym to "best". As in, all jobs are useless, except WAR+NIN+WHM because they can cover red!

A job is fine in my eyes if it gets to use its abilities. BST for example is not fine, because it doesn't get to charm. It is by no means terrible, but it isn't fine. Same with SMN that has near zero purpose to use wards or spirits. Just predator claws all day long. (Slight exaggeration). I'd actually rate RDM and DRK as jobs in need of updates as well, since RDMs are not meleeing much and DRKs aren't casting many spells.

RNG, COR and such I'd not really say have any problems. Costs gil, hard to buy ammo, doesn't do best damage, is about all negatives you can find. Nothing about the actual job is bad, just lacking gear.

I wish SE had the same focus, on fixing the things we do not use. But sadly SE is always working on adding something new (that we may or may not use). Even when it sounds like they are listening (They say they work on adding new avatars which can be kept out longer) they end up programming something completely different (2 hour avatars).

I'd love to see some actual feedback from SE though. It always seems like they avoid all threads related to job issues. I'd agree with them if there were only people here saying they wanted to be stronger, but when people complain on bad puppet spell selection, bugged spirits, lack of charm use, it isn't because we want to deal 9999 damage, it is because we want to use our abilities and spells.

Hoshi

06-02-2011, 06:35 AM

Yeah there is probably a distinction between useful and best. I prefer the term waste of party space. If you have a friend and their only job is (insert your favorite job here) and you already have the jobs you need to get things done AND an extra party spot I'm sure you'll bring them along. If you need that spot for (insert required job here) you're not going to have a spot for them.

Consider another situation where player A has 1 high demand job and 4 less useful jobs... they're going to get stuck playing the useful job whether they like playing that job all the time or not while someone else in the group who only leveled useless jobs will get to play what they enjoy playing to their hearts content. I imagine that some people complaining about the versatility of some jobs vs others are stuck in this kind of a situation. Their favorite job may not see the light of day while a job that they leveled at a different time/dynamic of xi history may be all they play.

Soundwave

06-02-2011, 10:34 AM

Ohhhhhh Camate!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get your butt in here and reply to this thread please!:cool:

This thread is slowly going off track. It's not about what direction of what we think the jobs are heading in...but the actual direction SE is taking them so we can actually comment on that.

A road map to jobs please!!!!!:p

Alaik

06-02-2011, 11:23 PM

All the things listed for future THF upgrades: DD enhancement at endgame, offensive perfect dodge, being able to freely manage hate (Note added after accomplice/collaborator so obviously it's not those), a new TH and a new steal.

Well, 2 useless abilities out of 5 ain't bad.

Keyln

06-02-2011, 11:36 PM

While I will refrain from making specific wish lists of my favorite pet jobs (not pet as in actual pet jobs...), it would be nice to hear from SE what they plan to do in the future about the various jobs.

Finuve

06-03-2011, 12:20 AM

A job is fine in my eyes if it gets to use its abilities. BST for example is not fine, because it doesn't get to charm. It is by no means terrible, but it isn't fine. Same with SMN that has near zero purpose to use wards or spirits. Just predator claws all day long. (Slight exaggeration). I'd actually rate RDM and DRK as jobs in need of updates as well, since RDMs are not meleeing much and DRKs aren't casting many spells.no no no...dont give them any ideas, we dont want to spend all day casting, we want to toss out a few spells here and there to increase our DD and save ourselves when we take hate

what DRK needs is to actually be able to DD again, its sad my randomly geared DNC out DDs my Quietus DRK, and DNC is terrible DD compared to WAR MNK NIN

Alhanelem

06-03-2011, 01:06 AM

I think blood pacts should implement a charge system to give you more freedom over their timing.

Duelle

06-03-2011, 02:48 AM

no no no...dont give them any ideas, we dont want to spend all day casting, we want to toss out a few spells here and there to increase our DD and save ourselves when we take hateWhat DRK in part needs is much shorter cast times. Most DRK spells should be around the same cast time as Stun to minimize melee time lost. While I'd love an enmity drop spell, I don't think any job would get something like that.

Selzak

06-03-2011, 02:52 AM

Dear SE, I was wondering if you can tell us what direction the ffxi jobs are heading in?

A link to great examples you given us in the past.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_1.html

Thanks for taking the time to read this.:cool:

**Edit**
I never saw that post on POL, and that is something that I definitely agree would great to see more of. Some jobs have a serious lack of direction, which I think is the basis for a lot of complaints whether it's realized or not.

Dark Knight is a good example of this. The recent adjustments were fantastic, since DRK's inability to...use its abilities...was a glaring problem. However, I think that instead of delicately trying to make DRK DD exactly like a WAR but different, a unique role should be defined. Stun Knight only has Stun and Weapon Bash...and Absorb Spells + Useless Elemental magic isn't worth much.

Summoner is still struggling for its identity, but progress has been made here, too. Splitting Blood Pacts was a definite step in the right direction, but secretly I think the most exciting adjustment for SMN was Avatar's Favor. SMNs should bring some unique benefits to a party, but most importantly SMNs should be encouraged to have their avatars out somehow.

Paladin has no lack of identity, but out of all jobs it's probably struggling the most right now. There needs to be some serious consideration of PLDs as soon as possible. This seems like a tough problem that has a solution somewhere within the game's mechanics and not within the job itself.

Thief is rocking Abyssea, and has also gotten some great attention with respect to its role in a party. THFs can chime in here and disagree if I'm wrong, but this seems like one job that SE has done very well with over the past few years.

Dragoon is another job that proves SE can fix things.

Ranger is one job that shows how SE can break things. This job needs perhaps one more layer to it. It used to be the job that you throw gil into for damage, now it's just the job that you throw gil into.

Soundwave

06-03-2011, 06:06 AM

Well said Selzak!

Return1

06-03-2011, 06:17 AM

Anyone that thinks DRK needs a lot now is just wrong. The Last resort buff essentially makes them the strongest DD in the game outside abyssea , and a competitive one inside, unless you have a BRD/WHM + DNC in the party as well. If they really want to make a strong boost to DRK's magical side, they could boost Absorb spells. f they made Absorb Spells last 3 minutes and have the boosted stat remain static instead of decaying constantly, the effects would actually be worth casting the spells.

SMN has found its place in my opinion. You're a defensive support job that throws out supplemental damage. Earthen Armor with Scherzo is an amazing combo and is extremely effective for new NMs and Voidwatch. The fact you can solo well and have strong bursts of magic and physical damage types is a blessing people need to take advantage of.

PLD also has benefited. The addition of mobs that hit very hard, have high accuracy, and strip shadows, make them more desirable. If SE keeps the newer, more difficult fights churning out, we'll see PLD return in a real tanking role. The fact they made the recent VIT change was a precursor telling us of their intention.

THF is another example of SE getting it right. THFs wanted to be allowed to melee/DD on bigger mobs. SE made it so they would be encouraged to melee by making TH effects build as they do damage. To get rid of that pesky "THFs feed the mob too much TP" argument, they made AGI, a stat THFs have good amounts of, lower the TP given to mobs per hit, and release tons of good Subtle Blow gear, especially in slots that won't eat up Haste gear. The THF adjustment is probably my favorite adjustment as they fixed THF by not just giving boosts by damage, but by increasing its own unique way of contributing to groups.

Soundwave

06-03-2011, 06:52 AM

Glamdring

06-03-2011, 08:19 AM

PLD also has benefited. The addition of mobs that hit very hard, have high accuracy, and strip shadows, make them more desirable. If SE keeps the newer, more difficult fights churning out, we'll see PLD return in a real tanking role. The fact they made the recent VIT change was a precursor telling us of their intention.

good luck selling that one to the player-base that already "knows" better. Honestly, the Abyssea content has been as devastating to paladin as the old XP penalty being published in an early how-to guide was to beast. They removed it in year 2 or 3 of release but we beasts still get crap about it. Paladin is going to take almost as long to recover from Abyssea, and the 75-90 boosts to other jobs. This is all barring some radical redesign of the game.

Not with me mind you, having played some jobs that have long been discriminated against I've gotten used to doing things in ways other than the cookie-cutter approaches on wiki and alla, so I know there are other ways to get things done. Paladins are welcome in my parties, just not in a DD role.

Return1

06-03-2011, 09:03 AM

Alhanelem

06-03-2011, 09:23 AM

pup: the only things we can be absoutely certain of; whm AI will never be fixed, scanner will never be made to function, rdm pup will remain capped at level 72 and harlequin at 50.
Um, harle/rdm are not capped to those levels. not learning more magic != capped. Scanner already functions, it just doesn't do what we want it to do. WHM AI isn't broken, strictly speaking, though the majority of us would like some changes to its default behavior.

Sparthos

06-03-2011, 10:00 AM

Even the guys at BG were talking bout how they found PLD useful for the newer NMs and voidwatch. PLD will become more desirable because SE is designing more PLD friendly fights. High Accuracy means eva tanks lose their main advantage. Real hard hitters remove something like WHM+WAR/SAM tanking it from 100% to dead. The ability to strip shadows, like spamming ga spells, or AoE melee attacks. No 20mp a tick in Atmas helps too.

I will not be surprised when the next tier of Voidwatch scheduled to come out in the August update, and new NMs they'll add to the next revamped system, makes PLD important again.

While part of me agrees with you, Voidwatch has been a drop in the sea known as post-Abyssea FFXI. Really, the system is so incomplete and rewards so few it has failed to even divert the smallest iota of attention away from Abyssea.

Really it's starting to smell like VNMs all over again.

Soundwave

06-03-2011, 10:09 AM

I may be wrong but VW seems to require a bit to many ls members to do the event and I don't see many HNMLS now a days, at the current time you may be able to do VW in lower numbers if possible but if the Tiers get much harder I don't see the events worth wild, will turn into AV/PW situation...people may want to do them but the amount of people and the effort required will not be worth doing in the end.

Ravenmore

06-03-2011, 10:21 AM

Its more to do with the effort reward. Most of the gear is crap or side grade. Only reason you joined a "HNMls" was the ones that went after ground. Many other endgame shells did ZNM, KS99, dyna, limbus, sky so on but avoided ground. If VW had rewards that people wanted and not BS gear like Accursed Belt it would be done.

Sparthos

06-03-2011, 10:30 AM

Has nothing to do with numbers.

VW loot doesn't justify it's existence. You have a few "good" pieces here and there but overall you're better off sitting in Abyssea where everything falls into your lap rather than chase down hard mobs with not so diverse lootpools for minor upgrades if any at all.

T1s only have one unique drop and if you don't get it? You get garbage.
T4 has some unique armor but it's exceedingly rare and yet again if you don't get the unique drop, you're utterly screwed. The initial awesomeness of the top tier mobs is ruined by opening the chest to be rewarded with random jewels and other placeholder garbage.

If there's one thing about XI that's remained constant is events where loot is not in abundance fall to the wayside after the gung-ho shells run through it and get a taste of what the gear situation is like. Not even knocking it for its complete copy/paste of a previous event (ANNM), it seems SE fell right back into the claptrap that doomed such events like VNM and Moblin Maze Mongers with Voidwatch.

ZNM? Good rewards, plenty of rewards.
Nyzul? New sets, improvements over previous gear.
Voidwatch? Side-grades +1, copy/paste content.

Karbuncle

06-03-2011, 10:42 AM

If i did Voidwatch, It would honestly be for getting the Aura-Gear, and the Deluxe animator, then i'd be done >__>

Oh, and the Harpe from the Harpy, Just for fun.

Soundwave

06-03-2011, 11:07 AM

that's why I said "I may be wrong.":o

Rezeak

06-03-2011, 11:47 AM

Off topic : I just want to say as far as Void watch goes it's pretty good SO FAR

and by that i mean there is enough there for pple to play it and understand the system there may only be a few peice of gear that are :Q__ and alot that are meh or +0.05 on the old best gear but thats ok because this is part 1 there is going to be a second part and until then i'm not going to right it off just yet.

On topic : Asking for a road map for jobs is kinda a tough question cause i'm sure every jpb adjustment they have too look and the balance and decide what job needs what so planing it for 12 months is pobably impossible outside that the basic stuff we can prolly guess.

By my guess we'd prolly get a few of these

WAR and MNK will prolly get a few tweak nothing major till 99 or new merits
THF i'd imagine will get some more hate tools or DD tools now SE have fixed TH
RDM and SCH may get some cure tool so they can function as a healer in abyssea
BLM more spells maybe meee-tea-orrrr
WHM iono more cures/ways to sustain mp outside abyssea (honestly no idea)
DRK prolly some magic tweaks i can't see melee buffs until 99/new merits for this job
PLD a way to hold hate over other jobs.
BST SMN more /random pet tweaks
DRG hoestly if they not reducing call wyven time soon or making it so a wyven doesn't die as much there just ignoring DRG (prolly some new jump too lol)
SAM i believe there due a decent buff now not sure if SE will wait till 99 tho
BLU more spell and therefore more job traits lol
COR it should be a buff on 11 rolls but they gave us the lol roller's ring (pure fail SE)
PUP iono... i stay away from this job
DNC little more healing power maybe a new samba/step i dunno.

Lazus

06-03-2011, 05:28 PM

Ravenmore

06-03-2011, 05:35 PM

Well soundwave you got part of your wish.

Return1

06-03-2011, 06:21 PM

Voidwatch has some nice pieces. People haven't really mastered the system, and these are just the first part of the voidwatch system. I'm expecting more powerful mobs, more powerful atmacite, more gear with Sphere effects, higher powered gear, and with the newer gear, an increaseddesire to do Voidwatch. Hell I already want a few things from voidwatch, especially Ganesha's Mala.

If I had to guess a rection for jobs:

WAR: More reasons to use various weapons. Maybe not a job specific change, but a change to the battle system or ways to fight mobs. The Abyssea procs, Jailer of Temperance, and the damage type Limbus zone are good examples. Would not be surprised to see a native DW to make 2 one handed weapons better for said system.

MNK: More damage enhancements to continue the trend on MNK getting JAs and Traits for damage. Guard fix.

THF: THF is on he right track. Steal/Despoil and Mug recasts lowered to 1 and 3 minutes respectively, and a new Despoil type of ability tied to Mug. The lower recasts would let THF help more with dispells and additonal debuffs in a way unique to them. Possibly a debuff to enhance critcal hit rate on a target.

WHM: A way to remove Weakness from tanks, possibly at the cost of weakening yourself. Boost to "emergency" healing, possibly a JA to instantly restore HP, in the line of Martyr.

RDM: A way to dispel auras. Slight boost to curative power. Possibly a Plague like debuff and an addle effect for mob TP moves. Haste 2, maybe up to 30%. New Phalanx tier.

BLM: More insanely powerful nukes, including Meteor. Possibly a trait to return a percentage of damage dealt by a damage spell to your mp pool (EX: 2000 damage Fire V returns 20mp). JA to greatly enhance MB or ignore a target's magic damage reduction traits.

PLD: More ways to mitigate damage, and new CE boosting hate tool (Possibly like a second flash type spell). Mostly a change to the new NMs and HNMs that come out, making them inconvenient to blink tank, such as AoE melee attacks or constant use of shadow stripping spells.

DRK: Possibly Absorbs for Attack, Haste, and Enhancement stealing. Hopefully a fix to the problem of short duration and decaying effect of stat absorbs. Absorb-Haste would really fit in with the theme of DRK speed. A new native WS that doesn't suck for Scythe and Greatsword would be nice.

BST: More Damage based JAs that involve a pet. Trait to improve TP gain. Possibly a way to transfer tp from pet to master or vice versa. Maybe a JA/Trait to SC with pets.

BRD: More defensive buffs. A new March.

RNG: Enmity shed. Retooling of damage calculation to enhance damage to make up for lower speed/lack of auto attack unless they cave and add an auto attack. Probably a shift to more dangerous mobs that require you to stay out of range.

SAM: An adjustment to the SC system. Possibly a JA to enhance your new WS Greatly on a one minute timer. SCs will probably debuff in some way.

NIN: More ways to lower mob TP gain. Possibly small party enhancement JA to crit rate.

DRG: A new jump. Ways to boost wyvern stats and breaths. More control over your pet. Possibly a Hasso/Seigan mode to make your pet sacrifice auto-attack rounds in order to do more powerful breath spells, or to have your pet sacrifice breath spells to enhance your TP gain.

SMN: More defensive buffs. New Physical Bloodpacts. A new way to enhance your avatar's abilities by sacrificing HP/MP or enhancing perp cost. Boost to Favor effects.

BLU: New spells, and JT. A new ability to add an ignore defense of level correction effect to your next BLU spell. Possibly a new ability to enhance the potency/duration of enhancement or cure effects of your next spell.

COR: Boost to 11s and more ways to stack the deck to obtain 11s.

PUP: Have no idea how PUP even works. Possibly a way to boost either master or puppet damage while lowering the other.

DNC: Separating Waltzes into groups 1 and 2. 1 being single target HP recovery, 2 being AoE HP recovery or status removal. New steps and a Flash Flourish.

SCH: Double weather storms. Strategems to enhance party member actions instead of the user's.

Just some guesses at future changes.

Soundwave

06-03-2011, 10:50 PM

Well soundwave you got part of your wish.

True True...but I'm sure I was not that only one who was wanting something like this.

**Edit**

next update is level 95 ya?

Malamasala

06-03-2011, 10:57 PM

I think blood pacts should implement a charge system to give you more freedom over their timing.

No! Charge system is a terrible idea. Charges only allow you to zerg things in 1 minute time. Charges do nothing for a job if you are constantly fighting something over a large period of time.

Play COR if you want to experience it. You just end up shooting twice, then waiting 56 seconds on one QD and 1:56 on the second.

Knowing SE developers though, that is exactly what SMN will get, and it will be yet another failure that makes all SMNs complain about lack of updates. Don't waste more time on crap SE.

Malamasala

06-03-2011, 11:07 PM

SMN has found its place in my opinion. You're a defensive support job that throws out supplemental damage. Earthen Armor with Scherzo is an amazing combo and is extremely effective for new NMs and Voidwatch. The fact you can solo well and have strong bursts of magic and physical damage types is a blessing people need to take advantage of.

It hasn't, because a WHM has en-stoneskin on cures so additional stoneskin is not needed, and BRD has their own Scherzo song. And for some reason WHM+BRD is a lot more common than SMN in a tank party. Most likely because they want haste + march, and a SMN wouldn't be able to add that to a WHM+SMN party.

Solo is also pretty moot when there is nothing worth soloing. NMs in abyssea needs triggers, and you don't have them. Normal exp mobs you solo slower than almost all other jobs. (BRD might be slower at soloing). The job is fine for soloing things outside of abyssea where you got kiting room.

Honestly though, I was happy I managed to solo the chigoe NM for shiva's boots (0/30ish when AF3 feet came), but it took me generally 15-30 min, while a SAM can just waltz over there in their awesome gear and 2 hour it to death in 20 seconds. (I've had a friend do that for me occasionally). And I must say that if it takes 90 times as long time to solo on SMN as on SAM, it isn't really a good solo job. (Sometimes it is good of course, but in general it is terrible)

AyinDygra

06-03-2011, 11:13 PM

Well, that's nice, they added a "version update teaser." (it may not sound like I'm happy, but it's a good start) (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9208-dev1017-Job-Adjustments-and-Refinements?p=114599&viewfull=1#post114599)

Very interesting updates on the way for some jobs in the short term. With a roadmap on the way for other jobs, we now have something to look forward to. (It's still not really the "thinking and direction" that the Dev Team has in mind for WHY they're doing certain things. We still have to guess about the "future" of the jobs.) However, those are some solid topics to talk about now.

It would be nice if people would stop filling this thread with their opinions about what they think the Devs are thinking. To completely honest, I really don't care what other people think the Devs are planning... "Your guess is as good as mine." in this instance. The only thing that really matters as an answer to this thread, is communication from the dev team.

(In my view, the only "guesses" that fit in THIS thread are absurdities that provoke real answers from SE. My apologies if that was what anyone was trying to do!)

Malamasala

06-03-2011, 11:20 PM

It would be nice if people would stop filling this thread with their opinions about what they think the Devs are thinking.

I'm pretty sure it has already been proven that they do not think at all. It always seems to be more like they sit at their coffee break and go "Oh, I just had this great idea about letting PUP have throwing weapons." Only a year later they'll remember that PUP uses animators in that slot and the whole update was a waste.

Return1

06-03-2011, 11:31 PM

It hasn't, because a WHM has en-stoneskin on cures so additional stoneskin is not needed, and BRD has their own Scherzo song. And for some reason WHM+BRD is a lot more common than SMN in a tank party. Most likely because they want haste + march, and a SMN wouldn't be able to add that to a WHM+SMN party.

Solo is also pretty moot when there is nothing worth soloing. NMs in abyssea needs triggers, and you don't have them. Normal exp mobs you solo slower than almost all other jobs. (BRD might be slower at soloing). The job is fine for soloing things outside of abyssea where you got kiting room.

SMN + BRD is becoming popular for the difficult new mobs because of the way Scherzo and Earthen Armor stack to great effect. BRD, WHM, SMN, PLD fits in tank PT. It also offers you 2 DD slots. My current Voidwatch group has a core of RDM, SMN, BRD, PLD for the most part.

Also, my friend, the aforementioned PLD, likes to solo plates for his Ochain when no one else is around. The option is there.

Duelle

06-04-2011, 03:05 AM

I'm pretty sure it has already been proven that they do not think at all. It always seems to be more like they sit at their coffee break and go "Oh, I just had this great idea about letting PUP have throwing weapons." Only a year later they'll remember that PUP uses animators in that slot and the whole update was a waste.This, as well as the whole "sticky notes on a dartboard" approach they've taken to Red Mage.

Malamasala

06-04-2011, 06:01 AM

SMN + BRD is becoming popular for the difficult new mobs because of the way Scherzo and Earthen Armor stack to great effect. BRD, WHM, SMN, PLD fits in tank PT. It also offers you 2 DD slots. My current Voidwatch group has a core of RDM, SMN, BRD, PLD for the most part.

Also, my friend, the aforementioned PLD, likes to solo plates for his Ochain when no one else is around. The option is there.

Well, SMN has been useful for tank parties since it was added. The problem is that it isn't useful enough to not be replaced by some safety net. Like replace the SMN with another WHM, or another PLD. I believe my LS usually had the fool proof tank party of WHM, WHM, BRD, RDM, PLD, PLD. Always cured, always hasted, always refreshed. And either two tanks, or one in spare.

The only exception was in Einherjar, where they threw in a BLU for crowd control. (Not that you want to be SMN in Einherjar. Release causes all yellow mobs with hate on alliance to attack you. An old bug SE never fixed... not that they EVER fixed SMN bugs.)

Soundwave

06-04-2011, 07:59 AM

While a change system can be a bad or good idea it depends on how its used/implemented.

Charge system can be talked about in this thread for smn
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5763-Adding-Charge-system-to-summoner.

Return1

06-04-2011, 11:11 AM

Well, SMN has been useful for tank parties since it was added. The problem is that it isn't useful enough to not be replaced by some safety net. Like replace the SMN with another WHM, or another PLD. I believe my LS usually had the fool proof tank party of WHM, WHM, BRD, RDM, PLD, PLD. Always cured, always hasted, always refreshed. And either two tanks, or one in spare.

SMN really wasn't that useful in the past for tank parties. That AA rotation crap was always garbage, the Hastega was inferior, and AoE SS didn't reduce enough to be much more than a joke. SMN used to be hate free, tpless damage ensuring the tanks could keep hate easy and the mob may never use a tp move if it didn't have regain. Changes to the playerbase understanding of enmity really hurt SMN as it killed half the reason people wanted them.

Now Earthen Armor paired with Scherzo makes it so you really don't have to worry about being one shot by particularly bad TP moves, which is nice considering mobs are growing stronger and stronger outside abyssea. This is far more valuable than a second tank. The addition of Favors makes SMN good to keep around mages as well. So now they protect the frontlines against severe damage, give the backlines support refresh, and can deal controlled Physical or Magical damage as the situation calls for it. That's a flexible and unique role that they can fulfill.

SMN is in a great place right now to be perfectly honest, it's just that SMNs all whine because they want to be broken like they were in past FF games, which really doesn't fit into an MMO.

Neisan_Quetz

06-04-2011, 11:17 AM

SYNTAX ERROR: Avatar Favors + Offensive Bloodpacts, does not compute.

Return1

06-04-2011, 03:21 PM

It's a very simple formula:

Avatar's Favor + Bloodpact Rage > 0

Leonlionheart

06-04-2011, 05:38 PM

This, as well as the whole "sticky notes on a dartboard" approach they've taken to Red Mage.

Why do people complain about RDM?

It's been overpowered to the point it can do everything BY ITSELF since it got meritable spells.

Not only could it solo better than everyone, but it was essential to party play too.

And for those who complain about RDM melee, well it's never been that in FFXI. It may have in FFI or FFIII, but it was never even close to that in FFXI. It gets some gear, it can use some swords, but its just never going to be worth while.

Return1

06-04-2011, 07:12 PM

And for those who complain about RDM melee, well it's never been that in FFXI. It may have in FFI or FFIII, but it was never even close to that in FFXI. It gets some gear, it can use some swords, but its just never going to be worth while.

RDM was always intended to be a hybrid melee in ffxi. Hi2u enspells. Players just pigeonholed the job into a backline job. Convert was made so they never needed to rest mp. Refresh was added so MP users could rest less and melee more. Fast Cast was supposed to cut down on castng and make it easier to get spells off on the front lines. Spikes were for the front lines. RDM was put on light melee armor. RDM was given fairly nice swords, fencing swords. RDM got composure which increases melee damage by upping accuracy and decreasing time spent buffing, and the new Est. Set enhances this even further. Tier 2 enspells. SE is releasing loads of new melee Armor with RDM on it.

All of that is fairly good proof. Hell abyssea was designed so anyone could effectively melee, though RR unbalanced it and left SAM and DRK in the dust, and completely removed the need to rest at all. SE has been pushing all mages to melee more in fact. Through JAs, JTs, new WSs, spells, gear, and battle systems that encourages them to be on the front lines.

Don't believe me?

WHM: Given an entire job mode designed for being in the front lines that focuses on increasing MP efficiency. A spell that can greatly enhance melee accuracy, some tests parsing 35+ to acc, adds light damage, and gives subtle blow. Multiple native WSs capable of restoring large chunks of MP. New gear.

RDM: Covered above.

BLM: loloccult acumen. Spikes. Spirit Taker. Faster casting. New gear.

SMN: Spirit Taker, certain Avatar's Favor, Auto-Refresh II, MP recovery through syphon, and New gear.

BRD: Fencer, Crit defense, JAs can be used to keep specific songs on yourself, Military Parade, New gear.

SCH: loloccult acumen, Self SC, TP Regain spell, less casting of buffs through longer duraton and shorted casting times, New Gear.

Most of these changes have been made since the new introduction of battle systems that reward individuals based off of factors such as damage received and dealt, hp healed, enhancements granted, etc. The rewards of Beseiged, Campaign, WoE, and Bastion are heavily skewed in favor of those on the front lines. Better balance in these systems is probably why these jobs have seen a lot more useful front line ability boosts since their introduction.

Seriha

06-04-2011, 07:29 PM

Not only could it solo better than everyone...Untrue. Other jobs had soloed most other things RDM had, oftentimes more quickly. Holding back a job from updates because you fear they'll solo other new things is folly. Rather, if SE is afraid of someone soloing their new precious NM, they need to design it so you can't. Rage timers, regens, regains, limited combat area, draw-in, fixing pinning, shadow-passing TP moves or ranged attacks, etc..

...but it was essential to party play too

Not really. BRDs and CORs were superior refreshers back in the day, and anyone who felt RDMs healed better than WHMs had only dealt with bad WHMs (Who only got more powerful with /SCH and Solace/Misery). Slow and Para could also be handled by WHMs, so the low-man argument is kinda moot since I doubt people tried thanks to the RDM TP burn bandwagon. Put simply, the job isn't needed for anything now and in its current incarnation is basically third-rate everything, if not worse (especially in the melee department).

There's some justified concern floating around. Sure, you'll get the trolling counterpoints to try and goad people into fights about it, but people aren't inviting RDMs to proc, main heal over WHMs in Abyssea, buff whore, nuke, melee, or even solo crap for them. And if they are, it's a last resort kind of deal or other primary roles are covered. Regardless, no job should have to solo to try and adhere to its concept.

Return1

06-04-2011, 08:03 PM

The future''s gonna suck for all these people who use Abyssea as some sort of standard for what a job needs. Have they really not realized we're going to have nine more post abyssean levels and more upgraded/relevant content outside of abyssea than inside? Then where will their arguments be?

RDM will be desirble again when it sinks in that a WHM + WAR/MNK/THF/NIN doesn't instantly mean you win anymore. More Refresh will be needed, mp management necessary, and debuffs will become essential. When that time comes, RDM will be sitting pretty with the most crippling debuffs in the entire game.

Leonlionheart

06-05-2011, 05:44 AM

Untrue. Other jobs had soloed most other things RDM had, oftentimes more quickly. Holding back a job from updates because you fear they'll solo other new things is folly. Rather, if SE is afraid of someone soloing their new precious NM, they need to design it so you can't. Rage timers, regens, regains, limited combat area, draw-in, fixing pinning, shadow-passing TP moves or ranged attacks, etc..

Not really. BRDs and CORs were superior refreshers back in the day, and anyone who felt RDMs healed better than WHMs had only dealt with bad WHMs (Who only got more powerful with /SCH and Solace/Misery). Slow and Para could also be handled by WHMs, so the low-man argument is kinda moot since I doubt people tried thanks to the RDM TP burn bandwagon. Put simply, the job isn't needed for anything now and in its current incarnation is basically third-rate everything, if not worse (especially in the melee department).

There's some justified concern floating around. Sure, you'll get the trolling counterpoints to try and goad people into fights about it, but people aren't inviting RDMs to proc, main heal over WHMs in Abyssea, buff whore, nuke, melee, or even solo crap for them. And if they are, it's a last resort kind of deal or other primary roles are covered. Regardless, no job should have to solo to try and adhere to its concept.

RDM is the least of your worries then, since essentially MNK RDM THF PLD DRK RNG BST BRD SMN DRG SAM NIN COR SCH DNC aren't needed for anything.

In the end all you really need is a WAR a NIN and a WHM and you can get everything the game has to offer right now.

RDM on the other hand brings a LOT to the table. Slow II is up to 12% more potent than Slow, Paralyze II is also retardedly powerful. Yeah, BRD is better, and it always has been to some extent. Don't get ahead of yourself saying that RDM really needs something to pick up the slack, because in reality it doesn't. It's still as powerful as it was back at 75, same as BRD and COR. You just don't NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED refresh anymore.

Plus now with the right atma it can do Blizzard IV that can compare with Freeze II (Since they can refresh themselves they don't need to burn an atma on refresh).

Sparthos

06-05-2011, 06:58 AM

Mobs in Abyssea dont need debuffs, Cure IV isnt going to keep up with AOEs/high HP pools and Refresh/Buffs being self-contained makes a support line a joke.

RDM nuking means nothing as you don't have all the trigs and damage is in no short supply. In Abyssea, RDM brings nothing to the table.

The only reason why RDM made all the parties back when was due to a support line being needed to keep MP going, debuffs were critical when wiping actually meant wiping and Cure IV was pretty much enough to keep DD up.

SE gave away all the tools that made certain jobs desirable through Atma so is it no surprise BRD/COR/RDM popularity has tanked.

Duelle

06-05-2011, 08:00 AM

RDM will be desirble again when it sinks in that a WHM + WAR/MNK/THF/NIN doesn't instantly mean you win anymore. More Refresh will be needed, mp management necessary, and debuffs will become essential. When that time comes, RDM will be sitting pretty with the most crippling debuffs in the entire game.So it gets to continue being a heal bot, buff bot and mezzer instead of a Red Mage. How sad.

Return1

06-05-2011, 08:42 AM

Cry me a river.

The only problems RDM has are the people playing it.

Neisan_Quetz

06-05-2011, 08:59 AM

I would say it's that being a generalist job is looked unfavourably upon in MMO settings (no one wants a job that can do a lot of things but not very well) but Rdm is still in a better position than most other generalist jobs that I can think of.

EDIT: NVM, just saw it happened late last year as well.

Eeek

06-05-2011, 11:16 PM

So it gets to continue being a heal bot, buff bot and mezzer instead of a Red Mage. How sad.

It's not SE's fault that you, and most other RDMs on the RDM forum, are incapable of recognizing and utilizing RDM's strengths. To boil RDM down to a cure/buff bot is an insultingly facile strawman argument that insults the intelligence of most competent players and subsequently reduces any credibility you may or may not have had among rational posters.

On that note, I don't hear much, if any, complaining from RDMs with the drive and willingness to go out and properly equip their RDM for meleeing. You can rightly point out that it's difficult to properly gear a RDM for meleeing, but anyone with well-geared DD jobs will just scoff at that idea. It takes time to properly gear a melee? Nowai!

Get back to me when you have (and can prove it) a 90Almace with a proper offhand (OA2-4 sword? Joyeuse? I don't know RDM's best offhand weapon), a capped haste TP set, a Ceremonial Dagger TP set, multiple WS sets, PDT gear, MDT gear, gearsets for defensive buffs and utsusemi casts, and gearsets to fulfill RDM's more magey duties. Oh, and don't forget top-of-the-line DD Atma, but that's not the hard part (although important nonetheless).

I'd have no problem with that guy/gal meleeing. They're doinitrite, and most importantly, likely have the common sense to differentiate between the time to melee and the time to mage.

I want to hear complains from well-geared melee RDMs, not the scrubs who think a sword and and maybe a few pieces of melee gear make a melee RDM. No, Enspells do not close that gap. But 99% of the time, it's the woefully ignorant who slap on a Joyeuse and engage in full mage gear.

Sadly, these are the RDMs that everyone sees trying to DD. It's why DD RDM has such bad rap.

See also: THF, DNC, BLU, PUP, BST, PLD.

Malamasala

06-06-2011, 12:30 AM

SMN is in a great place right now to be perfectly honest, it's just that SMNs all whine because they want to be broken like they were in past FF games, which really doesn't fit into an MMO.

I think you got that backwards. What SMN does, is exactly like in past FFs. We just deal damage. What we complain about is that all other parts of the job is not working. I can't debuff, because it isn't worthwhile. I can't buff, because they are all useless. I can't heal, because the recast is too long. I can't give out refresh, because I need to assault my pet to build TP for nukes. And spirits are not even worth mentioning.

What we whine and complain about is that we want these new things to work. Spirits that never existed before would have been nice... if they worked. Wards is a new and fresh thing... which serves no point. We got utility rages, that share our DD pact timer so they can't be used. For every thing new to FFXI Summoner, something prevents it from being used.

Now Earthen Armor paired with Scherzo makes it so you really don't have to worry about being one shot by particularly bad TP moves, which is nice considering mobs are growing stronger and stronger outside abyssea.

While it is nice, my Earthen Armors have never saved anyone. Either it is on, and they never get any high damage TP move, or it wears off and they get hit right after. And it can't be denied that spending 120 MP over and over again on something that "may" help is a complete disaster in game design. You could as well make RR last 5 minutes, and have all mages constantly re-applying RR "incase I die".

I'd agree with you if SE changed Earthen Armor to 15 min duration. Until then you are just sponging MP while playing the lottery that your tank should end up 1-shot suddenly. I might be insane, but I don't think it should cost you 2000 MP to save a tank from death. Look at BRD, it pays ZERO MP for the same thing, which is vastly superior in support.

You can play classic SMN just fine though, because if all you do is 70BP it over and over, the blood boon and elemental siphon will let you keep going far longer than any other BLM. But I doubt anyone has complained about the damage output of SMN. It is everything else, spirits, wards, low level rage pacts, perpetuation, mana cede, etc. that needs adjustments. Paying 100 MP for 100 more damage is just ridiculous. I'm not touching mana cede unless I'm in Abyssea these days.

Alhanelem

06-06-2011, 02:25 AM

the Hastega was inferior
the Hastega was inferior, but now it's superior. Hastes everyone at once for the same effect as the haste spell, and it lasts longer.

SYNTAX ERROR: Avatar Favors + Offensive Bloodpacts, does not compute. The effect of avatar's favor on blood pacts, especially physical ones, is very minor. They are still completely useable.

Neisan_Quetz

06-06-2011, 03:14 AM

It's minor on physical bloodpacts because Avatar Attack is either very high or capped with only 1-2 pieces of gear, possibly 3 with Favor up, -20 MAB is horrible for damage, especially for damage that's stuck on a 45 second timer at best.

Alhanelem

06-06-2011, 03:20 AM

No, its just a few points of physical attack doesn't matter much at all, while a few points of MAB does matter measurably.

Malacite

06-06-2011, 07:25 AM

Well, for starters they could maybe allow Avatar's favor to work on the freaking avatars themselves and not just the PT. Removing the 15% damage penalty would be nice too, since they're gimp enough as it is (I still think that was an unnecessary and back-handed drawback they put into that ability)

And BPs DO suck for damage, even the 70's unless you're inside abyssea and even then it's irrelevant - The whole big draw to them prior was because you could deal 1k+ damage to things like Kirin and not eat dirt because of it. Well, Abyssea kinda throws the whole notion of consequences out the window for the most part. Between Infinite-MP WHM's with Cure 6 and obscenely powerful weaponskills like Ukon's Fury, there's not much point to having a SMN around for damage.

And lord knows as others have pointed out, it's not good for much else anymore. Just about every buff a SMN can provide, other jobs can as well and in some cases they do it better. The only real reason to have a SMN around right now is for Voidwatch, and even that is totally random as it gives you absolutely no clue what pacts to use, and with a 1 minute timer it can get rather hectic.

A good start for fixing SMN would be something that players have been asking for since the game came first came out, which is individual timers for each blood pact.

Seriha

06-06-2011, 08:13 AM

I want to hear complains from well-geared melee RDMs, not the scrubs who think a sword and and maybe a few pieces of melee gear make a melee RDM. No, Enspells do not close that gap. But 99% of the time, it's the woefully ignorant who slap on a Joyeuse and engage in full mage gear.

You're looking at one, not that I trust you to really care to. Prior to the cap increases, I pretty much had all there was to offer for the job, and in terms of the melee game, that hasn't changed all that much. I've also got plenty of other dedicated DDs leveled and have no difficulty distinguishing the strengths between the jobs, nor will I sit here and demand someone have a level 90 Empyrean just to enter the conversation. Like it or not, there are levels before that. Like it or not, setting atma to devote yourself to melee will be depriving you of the more mage-y atmas that, even now, can't guarantee a RDM a spot in a party if a leader has a choice over a WHM or BLM. And we all know the moment a RDM starts slacking at their "mage duties," you and everyone else so vehemently against the notion will throw some form of hissyfit by picking a fight, kicking them, and/or taking some kind of screenshot and running off to BG with it like it makes you a pro. So, if you wanna tell people to stop talking strawman, than stop talking like every RDM is meleeing in full errant and that Abyssea is forever.

Duelle

06-06-2011, 09:44 AM

It's not SE's fault that you, and most other RDMs on the RDM forum, are incapable of recognizing and utilizing RDM's strengths. To boil RDM down to a cure/buff bot is an insultingly facile strawman argument that insults the intelligence of most competent players and subsequently reduces any credibility you may or may not have had among rational posters.Because that's not been the general way our job has been looked at since people started needing refresh and became desperate for heals, right?

And if you want to talk about insulting, selling the class as a magic swordsman only to find yourself buff and heal-botting in the content that matters is much more insulting, and even borders on bait-and-switch. Where're our combat proficiencies, which are part of the Red Mage concept? Oh right, they took the back burner in design when they decided to give us enfeebles and refresh. And when enfeebles stopped mattering, what took over? That's right, cure-botting, hasting and spamming refresh. Why? Because the DPS generated by RDM is a far cry from what is expected in the front lines (even moreso in a world where WS spam is king and sword happens to have weaker WS selection, further aggravated by the native lack of Vorpal Blade), and our "utility' never has and never will be a selling point or justification for that in front line context. It's been tried before, and it has failed.

On that note, I don't hear much, if any, complaining from RDMs with the drive and willingness to go out and properly equip their RDM for meleeing. You can rightly point out that it's difficult to properly gear a RDM for meleeing, but anyone with well-geared DD jobs will just scoff at that idea.False. An AH DRK, SAM, WAR, THF, BLU and NIN will blow an AH RDM out of the water. Where there are gear options for those jobs, we have to go to much greater lengths to actually get gear that starts making up for our lacking melee. And I say that as a guy who has played DRK and SAM. Made even worse by the easy to obtain gear that was tossed around like candy that lacked RDM in the list of jobs that could use it.

Get back to me when you have (and can prove it) a 90Almace with a proper offhand (OA2-4 sword? Joyeuse? I don't know RDM's best offhand weapon), a capped haste TP set, a Ceremonial Dagger TP set, multiple WS sets, PDT gear, MDT gear, gearsets for defensive buffs and utsusemi casts, and gearsets to fulfill RDM's more magey duties. Oh, and don't forget top-of-the-line DD Atma, but that's not the hard part (although important nonetheless).Which has to do exactly with what? Almace is a fix through gear, and thus null and void in the context of melee. And not having it doesn't disqualify me from critiquing the job's lacking design, since unlike you I keep concept and practice in mind, not just practice for the sake of efficacy.

If you want to see why I say what I say, go do some reading on this class (http://www.wowwiki.com/Paladin) (skip down to endgame expectations if you don't feel like reading the lore and the other bits on it). Try to not be biased and limited to "i h8tz tiz gam3" and "tiz iz diffrnt!1one!!", because all it does is prove you to be even more close-minded than I originally thought. That class has gone through the same hoops RDM is currently going through. All of it, from the lolmelee crap to the arguments between the front line and back line camps, and even including little self-important trolls like you looking down on the melee camp. Despite being designed with the exact same openness and utility of RDM, that class can front line, tank and heal based on what the player wants to do because the developers eventually pulled their heads out of their collective rears and made it happen.

I don't care how the devs accomplish it (since I do know certain aspects of XI are very limited due to the engine), but those kind of options are what I want to see open up to Red Mage. Not Magic Burst bonuses that are several years too late, not fixes through gear, not troll-face-implemented Shield Mastery, and certainly no purely healer-oriented traits. The option to front-line and be viable, the option to back-line heal and maybe even just focus on nukes, with all being acceptable in group content. Not your worth in a party being measured entirely from buff cycles and cures.

I'll even encourage anyone who feels their job is pigeon-holed to speak up as well, since I do feel for the NINs that don't like tanking and SMNs who have been all-around terrible for a good number of years.

Greatguardian

06-06-2011, 10:11 AM

Neisan_Quetz

06-06-2011, 10:16 AM

Not gonna lie though, I sure as hell wouldn't mind an update to melee proficiency (Why even add Enspell 2 SE) and/or or at least Cure V, but Rdm doesn't 'need' it.

Seriha

06-06-2011, 10:47 AM

Inb4 someone tells me you can't fit enough gear into 80 slots to play melee RDM effectively again, despite already having shown a hypothetical 72-77 slot Inventory that covers everything you'd need out at any given time in the RDM subforum.Because you can't, especially if you're dipping your hands into every cookie jar like a "good RDM" should be. Abyssea's somewhat negated the need for Convert and hMP sets, but once 91-99 content rolls around, it's a safe bet we'll be needing them cluttering our inventories again. And once you drop atmas, our melee drops like a rock and the glaring gap in equipment options for melee only becomes more obvious. Now, the inventory issue could be avoided if we could also equip things from our Sack and Satchel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Thus, we go back to needing better hybrid gear that isn't a trashy compromise so that maybe, just maybe, a RDM could hold some echo drops, let seals fall to their inventory, and have room for other miscellaneous drops without playing the inventory game while magically doing everything everyone demands of them.

Eeek

06-06-2011, 11:06 AM

Oh geez, where to start.

I pretty much had all there was to offer for the job, and in terms of the melee game, that hasn't changed all that much.

POIDH.

I'm also shocked that you're so blase about RDM's access to a WS as powerful as Chant du Cygne. Nothing's "changed all that much"? It's quite the opposite. Chant du Cygne is on par with the most powerful Empyrean weaponskills like Victory Smite and Blade: Hi (among others). A MNK or a NIN without access to their Empyrean weaponskill via a WoE Empyrean or Full Empyrean is simply subpar, and it's no different for RDMs serious about their DDing.

Also, new r/ex gear such as Zelus Tiara (+8% Haste) or Calmecac Trousers (+3% Haste/+2% DA/+2% TA ... and it's not a drop from Proto-Ultima or a mission reward from ASA) are not big improvements for serious melee RDMs?

nor will I sit here and demand someone have a level 90 Empyrean just to enter the conversation.

Sorry, but that's the way it's always been for the 'weaker' DDs. They simply have to work harder to compete, and it's not unreasonable for them to need a WoE or Full Empyrean to enter into the equation. DDs have never been on equal ground.

can't guarantee a RDM a spot in a party if a leader has a choice over a WHM or BLM.

My RDM, from 49-90+, always received fast invites for Abyssea exp. Leaders like me because I don't suck. I can heal better than most WHMs simply because I pay attention, and DDs love me because I keep every single DD in the ally hasted (it's just that important). I can nuke and crowd-control better than most BLMs simply because I pay attention, infuse the right Atma for the job (if I'm taking on that role), and I use proper Enfeebling and Nuking gear (it helps that I played BLM for years before leveling RDM).

And we all know the moment a RDM starts slacking at their "mage duties," you and everyone else so vehemently against the notion will throw some form of hissyfit by picking a fight, kicking them, and/or taking some kind of screenshot and running off to BG with it like it makes you a pro.

Don't want to be kicked from an Abyssea group? Suck Less, pay attention, and adjust your playstyle to address the needs of the party/alliance. I've never been bored enough to pull out a sword (even though it's fully capped and merited) because I can analyze a given situation and adjust my mage play to further complement and strengthen my party/alliance. Not everything demands the full healing or nuking power of WHM and BLM respectively, and RDM can adjust its approach to make kills faster and smoother. RDM is very powerful in the right hands.

Also, no one gets kicked from Abyssea exp groups these days, not that I've seen since no one seems to care, and I can't recall anyone being kicked from +1 seal NM groups. Even the people who really deserve it like full Aurore THFs, NINs, BLUs, DNCs, or BSTs (I kid you not, I've seen more than one full Aurore BST -.-).

stop talking like ... Abyssea is forever.

Actually, I'm on record as saying the exact opposite. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8581-Will-there-be-additional-Abyssea-type-zones?p=107389&viewfull=1#post107389)

stop talking like every RDM is meleeing in full errant

But that's exactly what happens, although these days it's full Teal instead of full Errant. Or another smattering of decidedly non-melee gear.

On another note, you can't hide behind Guru status here. You can and will be called out when you're off-base, and if you're smart, you'll see it as an opportunity to reconsider your stances or learn something.

EDIT: Haha, I shouldn't have bothered to reply. Greatguardian nailed it again, and in far fewer words than I used. I tip my hat to you, good sir.

Seriha

06-06-2011, 12:02 PM

POIDH.For 75, TP set was basically Joyeuse/Justice/V.Stone/Walahra/PCC/Suppa/Brutal/Goliard/Dusk/ACC ring/Rajas/Cerb/Speed/ASA/Dusk. It's a haste heavy build with a spritz of ATK and ACC, both of which are still a RDM deficiency. Newer gear that's come since doesn't change much since you could cap Haste before, nor does it really change the ACC/ATK situation much. Some I've chucked. Some I've sold. Goading's more accessible than Speed despite lesser haste. Atheling is a legitimate upgrade. The C. trousers are debatable next to the ASA, as it translates to a big ACC gap where the minimally gained DA/TA could be lost in misses (nevermind Joyeuse still being one of our primary weapons diluting that perk). Beyond that, our TP sets are pretty much still the same with WS considering things like Anguinus over Warwolf. Once atma exit the picture (Hence my Abyssea comment), our good WS, which are mult-hitters, further exacerbate the juggling against STR/ACC/ATK and secondary mods thanks to lesser base skill and no native melee traits.

Not quite a thousand words, but in absence of a pic, you'll have to deal with it.

Sorry, but that's the way it's always been for the 'weaker' DDs. They simply have to work harder to compete, and it's not unreasonable for them to need a WoE or Full Empyrean to enter into the equation. DDs have never been on equal ground.Pit Strong DD vs. Weak DD with equal effort put into both (nevermind the impossibility short of the exact same gear) and it's still no contest for the weaker. That's part of the problem. People flock to the stronger by default even if it means taking a gimp Strong against the pimpest of the Weak that would outdo them.

Meanwhile, your head's still up your butt if you think Empyreans or even WoE WS are standard.

My RDM, from 49-90+, always received fast invites for Abyssea exp.So, by admitting you didn't level the job the old way, you've pretty much confessed no first-hand experience on the actual issues myself and others have brought up over the years. Hint: This isn't a problem that just materializes at 90.

Leaders like me because I don't suck.Leaders on your server are clairvoyant? I must learn their secrets to constructing the perfect PUG and how seeing a name and possible search comment divulges one's full potential. Or maybe this is where you say you only EXP with your LS or a static. Most don't.

<lines of self-back patting>POIDH time? Is this where I say I'd been my preferred LS RDM doing the back-line gig in various events prior to the cap increases where myself and others felt the brunt of pink magery with no hinted direction from SE other than a seeming sense of inaction? I mean, I guess we could look forward to the job map, but that's not really any different than the years we sat around before that hoping for fixes and changes.

On another note, you can't hide behind Guru status here. You can and will be called out when you're off-base, and if you're smart, you'll see it as an opportunity to reconsider your stances or learn something.I must have been asleep or something when I conveyed that posting on Alla somehow makes me unconditionally right. Please link. This isn't the first time you've brought it up, let alone as yet another attempt at an insult toward myself or anyone who posts there. Yes, I've called you out on your own behavior here and its carry-over to BG, and it seems I've struck a nerve. When you can convey that precious knowledge of yours without running away for support or poisoning it with your sour attitude, maybe you might actually teach me something. I know your eyes are rolling right now, so prepare for it again, but I do learn things when there's actually something to be learned.

Otherwise, I'll just give you the advice that you're never going to change my mind about RDM in its current position, as we're intrinsically conflicting in both personalities and play styles. I, however, want options for the job. You? "Screw 'em! They're retards."

Greatguardian

06-06-2011, 12:45 PM

Because you can't, especially if you're dipping your hands into every cookie jar like a "good RDM" should be. Abyssea's somewhat negated the need for Convert and hMP sets, but once 91-99 content rolls around, it's a safe bet we'll be needing them cluttering our inventories again. And once you drop atmas, our melee drops like a rock and the glaring gap in equipment options for melee only becomes more obvious. Now, the inventory issue could be avoided if we could also equip things from our Sack and Satchel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Thus, we go back to needing better hybrid gear that isn't a trashy compromise so that maybe, just maybe, a RDM could hold some echo drops, let seals fall to their inventory, and have room for other miscellaneous drops without playing the inventory game while magically doing everything everyone demands of them.

As I recall, your primary complaint with my inventory was the lack of Dark Magic Skill gear. Frankly, I was still being very generous with that set. An ideal RDM isn't ever, ever going to keep their full Nuke sets and staves out while they have their TP/WS sets and Swords out. Why? Because we have a Mog Sack and a Mog Satchel for those things.

RDM changes roles in the field. Even with only 80 active inventory, you have plenty of room for things that you are going to need available to you *At any one point in time*. If the situation changes and you need to swap to staves and grab your Nuke sets? Chuck TP/WS/Swords into your Sack and grab Nuke/Staves/etc out of it. It takes 30 seconds.

Here's the thing: Warrior is only good at one thing. Being a Warrior, aka Hitting stuff. Black mage is only good at one thing. Being a Black Mage, aka nuking shit. Red Mage is good at everything. Can you reasonably expect Red Mage to be better at blowing things up than Black Mage? No, but it is (was). Sorry, BLMs. Prior to Elemental Celerity and the crapload of Nuking buffs BLM has received post-Scars of Abyssea, RDM was clearly the superior nuking choice.

Can you reasonably expect a Red Mage to ever be able to Melee DD as effectively as a MNK, a NIN, a WAR, or a THF? No. Never. Not in a million years. Why? What can that MNK, or NIN, or WAR do aside from DD effectively and tank? Can they Nuke? Can they heal? No. These are specialized jobs, who excel at their chosen function. Red Mage is not a specialized job concept. It is an amalgam of different specializations that it can swap between in the field.

No matter what, all jobs and roles in FFXI are always best played via specialization. Specialized DDs are the strongest DDs. Specialized Healers are the strongest healers. Specialized Buffers are the strongest Buffers.

Red Mage is not a job designed to be able to do everything at the same time. Red Mage is a job that is designed to be able to change its specialization, and occasionally utilize multiple, mutually appreciative, simultaneous specializations, without changing jobs.

Can you heal, buff, Dia, and DD effectively at the same time? Hell, I hope you can, easily. Healing, Buffing, and the Dia spell are acceptably proficient without the use of the Main/Sub slot.

Can you heal, buff, Nuke, and DD effectively at the same time? No. Why? Nuking and DD'ing conflict. You cannot use staves while DD'ing, and you cannot nuke effectively in a sword.

What does this mean? If you're doing something which obviously conflicts with another potential specialization, store the gear for said specialization in your sack/satchel. If you suddenly need to disengage and start nuking/kiting, toss your DD gear into your satchel and grab your Nuking gear out of it. I'm sure you can handle autorunning for 30-60 seconds while you spam enter and scroll down, right?

I really don't want to see the "I want Hybrid Gear that's better than all the specialized gear combined" argument brought up again, but it's not like its gained any more merit since the last ten times it's been thrown out. Keeping conflicting sets out at the same time is stupid. There are some sets that should never, ever be stored, like PDT, MDT, and Refresh/Idle. But really, why the heck would I need instant access to my HMP set if I'm in Abyssea? Or my Bio set if I'm using Dia on everything? Work smarter, not harder.

Duelle

06-06-2011, 05:36 PM

I'll bet an AH RDM can cure better than an AH PLD. Ugh. I'm so frustrated. PLD was billed as a Swordsman with Healing magic, but no one lets me main heal in parties. Why does everyone expect PLD to be on the front line? What's the point of even giving them access to Apollo's Staff if they're not going to Cure? It's downright insulting, SE!Bad argument to start. Nice try but PLD has been one of the few jobs that actually lives up to concept and how it was sold. The knight in shining armor that uses a sword and shield and protects his allies. Hell, even the weak white magic is up to par with what you expect out of a Final Fantasy paladin.

Protip: Red Mage is easily one of the single most powerful stand-alone jobs in the entire game. Players who are good enough to play it effectively while melee'ing appropriately already do so and no one with a brain complains.Counterpoint: The job is currently not streamlined and suffers in actual party content because of it. Keep in mind that this game as a whole is built around partying, which already proves the job fails when its components are not all relevant in the very thing the game was designed around. It's sad that some people here cannot wrap their brains around the idea of a hybrid job being capable of choosing their role and being beneficial to their LS/groups instead of having to be pigeonholed into one role alone.

Here's the thing, though. Good RDMs also know when to chuck the sword and throw on the staff. There is no "Always Wearing A Sword" approach to a job like RDM that will ever be successful. Staves enhance spells. Swords enhance frontline damage. When your duties are limited to Restorative/Buff duties, you aren't losing much by equipping a sword (CdC will outweigh the benefit you get from Cure Potency+, and you're able to use RR/Apoc/MM without much of a loss). When your duties include Enfeebles on resistant NMs, any sort of Nukes, Movement/Kiting, or the versatility granted by being able to change your Main/Sub slots, you wear a bloody staff/wand/whatnot and use Mage atmas.I felt you were going to play this card, but fine. Gameplay currently favors the backline caster with buffs much more than any other aspect of the job itself. Nukes didn't even matter until Abyssea, Atma and all that gear that was covered in +MAB entered the picture. Furthermore, front lining does not and should not include buff duties, as you already lose valuable melee time with what we have to cast on ourselves. Occasional utility is fine because you can pitch in during emergencies (much like the class I mentioned in my last post can when front-lining), but that is not part of what you should be doing in the front lines.

RDM is one of the most inventory and macro-heavy jobs in the game to do well. But I tell you what, the fact that not everyone with level 90, 10,000 gil and a pulse can a be sooper dooper awesome magic swordsman is not a problem with the Red Mage job. It is a problem with shitty players who only have level 90, 10,000 gil, and a pulse.Right, the job is an exclusive club. Screw the people that liked the job from previous games, only the elite get to play Red Mage! /sarcasm

The job used to fill a niche as being able to cover heals in an age where White Mage was the only real healer and Summoner could pseudo cover until you got to mobs that actually hit hard. It was in high demand not because of versatility or anything else, but because it could cure, haste and refresh, which were the three things parties cared about during the leveling process alone. By the time you hit the level cap everyone else is conditioned to expect that from a RDM to let the "real" melee and "real" nukers do their thing. Even with all the whining about RDM not being enough of a healer, I still got dragged along to cover heals.

Sure, we have Avesta and the clowns that immitated him ruining things for the rest of us who don't give two damns about soloing HNMs and gods (and in my case wish it had been nerfed to hell for the sake of class balance), but what the melee camp wants is simply the option to open up. As mentioned before, that is currently not the case, and the developers have basically been choosing random things to give our class instead of saying "well, this is what we're gonna do with you guys". Hopefully the upcoming posts on class direction will shed some light and will put the questions and issues to rest. If the answers are as definite as I hope they are, then I'll be able to drop the matter and move on.

Karbuncle

06-06-2011, 06:02 PM

Bad argument to start. Nice try but PLD has been one of the few jobs that actually lives up to concept and how it was sold. The knight in shining armor that uses a sword and shield and protects his allies. Hell, even the weak white magic is up to par with what you expect out of a Final Fantasy paladin.

I'm rather positive he was being sarcastic >.>

Ravenmore

06-06-2011, 06:17 PM

When were you playing that you would take a SNM main healing over rdm. Really rdm has been a healer in exp ever since the player base came around to seeing how retarded it was to exp on IT++ making 2 healers pointless. Endgame they went to the thier main role of debuffs, back heals, party buffs. Rdm is not the olny job that is really differnet then other games. Everytime some one spouts off that crap I really wish they didn't give 11 the Final Fatasy name

Supersun

06-06-2011, 06:22 PM

Also, new r/ex gear such as Zelus Tiara (+8% Haste) or Calmecac Trousers (+3% Haste/+2% DA/+2% TA ... and it's not a drop from Proto-Ultima or a mission reward from ASA) are not big improvements for serious melee RDMs?

Compare a 75 DD to a 90 DD.

Now compare a 75 Melee Rdm to a 90 Melee Rdm

So yeah while Rdm melee gear might have improved I can safely say that pretty much every other job except Blm, Sch, and Smn has received more powerful melee gear then Rdm.

So excuse me for not being exactly enthusiastic when every other job found bill gates credit card in their christmas stockings. Sure we got something too, but finding coal in out stocking compared to everyone else is hardly a buff.

And really, when reading your post of what you do in an average party I couldn't find one thing that a Blm/Whm couldn't do nearly as well if not better then Rdm in those situations.

The only advantage Rdm would have over Sch/Whm and Blm/Whm for what you are doing is MP management and there are bigger issues in your party if you are running out of MP.

Damane

06-06-2011, 06:22 PM

Ravenmore

06-06-2011, 06:54 PM

Soundwave

06-06-2011, 07:06 PM

Regardless, I think the road map for jobs would be really good right about now to stop all speculation....and allow people to comment on things that are going to happen so the dev team can actually make informed decisions based off what we say.

One thing is for sure....a lot of people been asking adjustments for summoner...I'd be really disappointed if SE does not listen to the people.

Ravenmore

06-06-2011, 07:28 PM

I'm sure we will get a road map soon. Them even saying it in the minor update notes is a big step in the right direction. Couple of years ago we were lucky to get hints at vanfest and update notes week or 2 before the update.

What imm'm really wondering about is how they going to let us use the test server, is it going to be log on anytime we want to, random invites or sever invites so on. If we can use gear that we have on our char so we can get a realisc view of how the content will play out for your avg player not going though on GM god mode like how they show off for community sites.

Soundwave

06-06-2011, 07:54 PM

Guessing the Job road map will come a bit before August, I hope to see it by July and not just before the August update.

I'm somewhat scared of this road map, I really wonder if they have even considered anything we have said about any jobs or will it be...."here you go enjoy we are sure you will like it."

Ravenmore

06-06-2011, 08:03 PM

They listen some what holding final judgment till I see what knid of damage boost pld jas get, and if they used any of the ideas for cover mention on here. Might not have to wait and see if they listen to us.

Soundwave

06-06-2011, 08:05 PM

._./\._. Time for foood!

Return1

06-06-2011, 09:43 PM

I think you got that backwards. What SMN does, is exactly like in past FFs. We just deal damage. What we complain about is that all other parts of the job is not working. I can't debuff, because it isn't worthwhile. I can't buff, because they are all useless. I can't heal, because the recast is too long. I can't give out refresh, because I need to assault my pet to build TP for nukes. And spirits are not even worth mentioning.

Earthen Armor and Hastega are amazing buffs. You don't have to build tp to nuke, you just do it to do more damage, so you have to choose between enhanced damage or more magical/refresh support. A lot of the buffs can be used and give decent effects. Enspells and ATK+ are decent DD bonuses, not BRD or COR powerful mind you, but still better than sitting there whining about how useless you are. You also don't have to only use refresh favor. You could use MAB favor, etc.

While it is nice, my Earthen Armors have never saved anyone. Either it is on, and they never get any high damage TP move, or it wears off and they get hit right after. And it can't be denied that spending 120 MP over and over again on something that "may" help is a complete disaster in game design. You could as well make RR last 5 minutes, and have all mages constantly re-applying RR "incase I die".

It's called knowing your situation. A lot of the new mobs have dangerous moves that can one shot you. This trend will only continue outside of abyssea. Some mobs have the ability to hit you with weakness, making their normal melee hits likely to kill you, unless you got EA+Scherzo. EA + Scherzo is a massive boost to things with powerful AoEs as well. Meteor is suddenly easy to handle, Astral Flow is made into a joke, and any tp move that doesn't inflict death is survivable, even if it's an AoE like Citadel Buster.

I'd agree with you if SE changed Earthen Armor to 15 min duration. Until then you are just sponging MP while playing the lottery that your tank should end up 1-shot suddenly. I might be insane, but I don't think it should cost you 2000 MP to save a tank from death. Look at BRD, it pays ZERO MP for the same thing, which is vastly superior in support.

Wrong.

BRD's Scherzo is free, but only half as strong. It also takes up one of 2 spells a BRD can put up, halving any Refresh or Offensive bonus they can give. That's a horrible argument you're trying to use against EA. Also, all of these new fights are 30 minutes long, and with a decent EA duration, it caps you at 1200mp cost, even less if you have the 450 summoning magic build putting you at 3:30 duration. On top of that, it doesn't have to be a hit that would one shot you, but a hit that would put you in danger of being killed immediately afterwards.

You can play classic SMN just fine though, because if all you do is 70BP it over and over, the blood boon and elemental siphon will let you keep going far longer than any other BLM. But I doubt anyone has complained about the damage output of SMN. It is everything else, spirits, wards, low level rage pacts, perpetuation, mana cede, etc. that needs adjustments. Paying 100 MP for 100 more damage is just ridiculous. I'm not touching mana cede unless I'm in Abyssea these days.

No one's saying those aren't valid points. I however prefer to look at the upside to summoner currently. SMN is the only job capable of high Physical or Magical damage bursts at will. SMN has the best of the emergency prevention tools, which stacks to become greatly enhanced with BRD's song. SMN lends itself well to zerg fights. SMN can offr mild support enhancements. SMN can offer crowd control through despawning adds or in emergencies can attempt a sleepga.

Sure there's room for improement, but that goes for every job. SMN is in a really good place right now.

Supersun

06-07-2011, 03:48 AM

Only in abyssea does rdm lose out to other jobs just subing whm. Outside of abyssea rdm and whm are still the best healers to have in your tank party. Cure 6 cost to much MP when outside of abyssea you tank should never need that kind of single cure power though out the fight. Also with out a rdm and refresh 2 good luck with mp.

This is half true. There are certainly much better refreshers then Red mage due to most other types of refresh stacking with whm's via /rdm.

And while certainly Red Mages are in fact better healers now, at 99 all the other refreshers will receive a huge buff to their healing when they receive Cure 4 with refresh and convert.

99Brd/Rdm is looking to be a stupidly powerful job with +35% haste, +12 MP/tick refresh, Cure 4, Convert, +80% slow (at least between Brd + Whm). Rdm will not likely be able to compete with this unless they receive some powerful new enfeebles to make up the lack of stackable refresh and less then White Mage powered healing.

Soundwave

06-07-2011, 11:32 PM

Page two, no no no!

Dallas

06-08-2011, 12:22 AM

Sure there's room for improement, but that goes for every job. SMN is in a really good place right now.

I'm glad there are other people happy with the job. SMN could use 2 things:

1) Some sort of pet: enmity tool not attached to BP: Rage. SMN can't do much outside the scope of "one BP every 45 seconds" without serious risk of dying. Good gear doesn't fix the problem.

2) Staff mastery. SMN is the only job that melees exclusively with staff. If SE is ever going to make a job master of this weapon, SMN deserves it. Throw in some simple staff stances just for fun: 1) that turns every hit into a cross between Spirit Taker and Aspir Samba (low %age damage converted to MP, but also works on undead) 2) that turns every hit into a cross between Drain Samba and Stoneskin (low %age of damage restores stoneskin)

Eeek

06-08-2011, 12:39 AM

Meanwhile, your head's still up your butt if you think Empyreans or even WoE WS are standard.

For some DD jobs, yes, they absolutely are standard. The weapsonskills are just that good. I can understand folks who don't want to pursue a full Empyrean, but the WoE Empyreans are a reasonable and powerful option that are simple to complete on any schedule with or without assistance from friends. Every DD who takes their DD jobs even somewhat-seriously, and does not own a Relic/Empyrean, should have a WoE Empyrean or be working on one provided the weapon grants them a top-tier WS. Some of the weaponskills are not worth the effort.

So, by admitting you didn't level the job the old way, you've pretty much confessed no first-hand experience on the actual issues myself and others have brought up over the years. Hint: This isn't a problem that just materializes at 90.

Do we really need to drag out the 'players have to level their jobs in 4k/hour crab parties to be a good player' argument? Smart, dedicated players will play well, and poor players will be poor. Always.

And I like how I have no first-hand experience with RDM's issues despite being around the job for years, studying the job, gearing the job, and playing it extensively in the field. Anyways, most good players are well aware of the capabilities of jobs they do not have leveled. It's a part learning the game.

I've never meleed on my RDM in a group setting because I'm fully conscious of RDM's abilities and what contributions are needed from me for the group to be successful (it's as simple as looking at the party/ally list). Playing RDM feels like playing a God on the battlefield, and that's without /SCH (I don't enjoy leveling, but it's at 30 now and I will force it to 49 somehow ; ; ). RDM isn't primarily a one-trick pony like WHM or BLM - RDM can do damn near everything I'd want to do as a mage in the field. I absolutely love RDM's ability to switch on-the-fly between defensive/supportive play and offensive play, and I can make all sorts of subtle adjustments to play that vary from mob to mob and from area to area.

If I wanted to melee, I would have leveled an actual melee. While I did build a RDM melee set before taking a break (<3 summertime), I only intend to use it for fun in solo play. I don't care to put in the necessary effort to make RDM an effective melee in group play. If I ever make an Empyrean, it'll be a Twashtar without question.

I mean, I guess we could look forward to the job map, but that's not really any different than the years we sat around before that hoping for fixes and changes.

RDM's been an incredibly powerful job for years, so I can understand SE's hesitation in tweaking it too much. Something does need to happen in the next 6 months or so, though. It's easy to assume that the Devs will somehow boost RDM's enfeebling capabilities, but as happened with Break, they seem hesitant. I do think Cure5 will happen by 99.

I'm not sure what else the Devs would be willing to do. They could adjust RDM-casted enfeebles to be inherently more accurate on mobs/NMs that are highly resistant or outright immune to certain enfeebles, but that could break solo RDM. I'm afraid we'll mainly see additional tiers of spells as happened with Refresh 2. I wouldn't be surprised to see spells like Para3/Slow3/Phalanx3 show up in the next-tier merit system after level 99.

without running away for support or poisoning it with your sour attitude, maybe you might actually teach me something.

I'm fully aware that you don't care about my opinions simply because they're different than yours. That's understandable and incredibly common as has been demonstrated through psychological research. I write more for others than for you. I don't know why RDMs across all FFXI RDM Forums are so strangely obsessed with RDM melee while most RDMs I've encountered and spoken with in-game over the years don't care much about it. I write for myself and those who don't want the job so fundamentally adjusted as to cripple it.

I write because these official forums are probably the among biggest threats to FFXI in its history.

Seriha

06-08-2011, 01:03 AM

I write because these official forums are probably the among biggest threats to FFXI in its history.I'm sorry, but if you think meaningful RDM melee will spell the end of FFXI (It's not all about damage, if you've been paying attention to any ideas floating around), that's your problem. Bad players will be bad players regardless of what happens, but to be so vehemently against adding potentially useful tools for the good players to make them that much better just has me scratching my head as it conflicts with that sense of skill and efficiency you're trying to impose of the caster-only role. We're otherwise conveying added risk should yield added reward, not more party hassles just to get people angry because someone somewhere was doinitrong.

So, while you might think Cure V a good addition, the conflict of opinion here is that it's only further homogenizing the mage jobs instead of diversifying them and giving them all reasons to stand out. At current, a 99 RDM/WHM and a 99 SCH/RDM aren't going to be all that different. And in the game's current climate, neither job are particularly a first choice. Just as we can't hope blindly for good updates toward a job, we can't hope blindly for content that would make either relevant again. Neither job are solely healers. Cure V will undoubtedly push both in that direction with no strong hope of dabbling in their other aspects since both will have haste, refresh, status cures, enfeebles, and a big cure. Exit Abyssea and a RDM won't be aggressively healing while throwing out nukes. MP just doesn't support it. SCH conflicts through Arts use, as well. RDM's simple distinction from SCH should be the frontline aspect, as SCHs are the ones stuck with the historically lesser damage staves, a diminished club proficiency compared to WHM, and no native skills or traits to imply they should be swinging much, whereas RDM at least gets Composure and Enspells with Refresh and Convert arguably conceptualized so they don't have to rest between fights, thus losing TP in the old days. We, the players, unfortunately perverted that intent into brute force healing.

Soundwave

06-08-2011, 10:53 AM

I'm glad there are other people happy with the job. SMN could use 2 things:

1) Some sort of pet: enmity tool not attached to BP: Rage. SMN can't do much outside the scope of "one BP every 45 seconds" without serious risk of dying. Good gear doesn't fix the problem.

2) Staff mastery. SMN is the only job that melees exclusively with staff. If SE is ever going to make a job master of this weapon, SMN deserves it. Throw in some simple staff stances just for fun: 1) that turns every hit into a cross between Spirit Taker and Aspir Samba (low %age damage converted to MP, but also works on undead) 2) that turns every hit into a cross between Drain Samba and Stoneskin (low %age of damage restores stoneskin)

1.) I would like to see this due to the fact that its hard when your in a jam I hate to have to use spirits to attempt to get the mob off me, I would much rather have what you say sounds good to me.

2.) Not a fix to summoner but defiantly should of been done a long long time ago.

Ravenmore

06-08-2011, 01:59 PM

This is half true. There are certainly much better refreshers then Red mage due to most other types of refresh stacking with whm's via /rdm.

And while certainly Red Mages are in fact better healers now, at 99 all the other refreshers will receive a huge buff to their healing when they receive Cure 4 with refresh and convert.

99Brd/Rdm is looking to be a stupidly powerful job with +35% haste, +12 MP/tick refresh, Cure 4, Convert, +80% slow (at least between Brd + Whm). Rdm will not likely be able to compete with this unless they receive some powerful new enfeebles to make up the lack of stackable refresh and less then White Mage powered healing.

Refresh 2 is still better then /rdm refresh. Not to mention they can keep refresh 2 on them self for 9mins with little effort getting the gear needed for it. Way it is now relic brds are more lol then rdms. Those people I would feel sorry for but for the most part they were given it to begin with.

Supersun

06-08-2011, 04:15 PM

Dallas

06-08-2011, 04:21 PM

1.) I would like to see this due to the fact that its hard when your in a jam I hate to have to use spirits to attempt to get the mob off me, I would much rather have what you say sounds good to me.

2.) Not a fix to summoner but defiantly should of been done a long long time ago.

#2 is a fix in the sense that SE acknowledged years ago that there needed to be a job that specialized in staff.

Ravenmore

06-08-2011, 05:11 PM

Sure, refresh 2 is more powerful then refresh, but ultimately it only adds 3(4) more MP tick as opposed to inviting a Brd which will add 9.

I'd feel MUCH safer in the hands of a Whm+Brd at 99 with both of them having 12 MP/tick then Whm+Rdm with 6 (unless something changes)

The issue with Brd is more that for NMs killing speed isn't that large of an issue anymore since the majority of the fight you are trying to proc anyway, and for exp they aren't required anymore and even with a Brd it only affects 1/3 of the alliance unlike a Rdm that can Dia III and give all 18 people a +17.6% attack bonus.

Why wouldn't you take both ? Were are you only getting 6 tic refresh from, highy douht the the whm and rdm would have no refresh gear. Out side of abyssea taking the bare min is not as effective.

Again relic brd are now no longer have a free passs to get everything they want.

Supersun

06-08-2011, 07:20 PM

I wasn't including refresh gear since most of it is fairly universal now and all 3 of those jobs can more or less equip the same amount of pieces.

and why WOULD you take both. If you ever needed THAT much healing you'd probably just use pets to tank it anyway like what people are doing with Voidwatch NMs.

Not to mention that instead of Whm + Brd + Rdm you could go Whm + Whm +Brd. You lose 3(4) MP/tick, but still keep 12ish minimum, and you lose the T2 enfeebles but still keep the T1 versions (that aren't very far behind anyway unless saboteured). For those minor losses though you get the healing power of another white mage.

Really, people are overplaying Refresh 2 thinking that once we leave abyssea Rdm will be SE's gift to the world.

+3 MP/tick was big when most mages had +0 MP/tick and no natural way to recover MP.

+3 MP/tick isn't anywhere near as impressive with other mages already having at least +6 MP/tick and a full MP bar every 10 mins especially when Brd can give +9.

(Also I'm assuming you are talking about Relic Bards being lol because of Crooner's Cithara. Though just to throw out the lvl 90 version adds +3 to all songs. That would give +13 MP/tick which is a lot. Not necessarily worth a relic weapon though still a lot. I'd think a 90 G horn would beat the pink harp still though I could be wrong.

Or are you talking about Brds being lol because of abyssea and not needing MP regeneration from other jobs and killing speed not being the biggest of issues. )

Soundwave

06-08-2011, 10:23 PM

#2 is a fix in the sense that SE acknowledged years ago that there needed to be a job that specialized in staff.

I dunno...to me it just seems like icing on the cake noting ground breaking.

"SE: Oh here you go summoners here is your cake enjoy."

Eeek

06-08-2011, 11:13 PM

I'm sorry, but if you think meaningful RDM melee will spell the end of FFXI (It's not all about damage, if you've been paying attention to any ideas floating around), that's your problem. Bad players will be bad players regardless of what happens, but to be so vehemently against adding potentially useful tools for the good players to make them that much better just has me scratching my head as it conflicts with that sense of skill and efficiency you're trying to impose of the caster-only role. We're otherwise conveying added risk should yield added reward, not more party hassles just to get people angry because someone somewhere was doinitrong.

I dislike all the melee talk specifically because it encourages the Devs to place emphasis on RDM's unquestionably worst aspect instead of augmenting the things that RDM does well and what RDM's are generally expected to do. Melee should be a hobby on the side, not the core aspect of the job. I don't want SE to ignore what actually makes RDM good in favor of melee adjustments that ultimately won't matter because it's insane to give RDM the capacity to DD as well as the specialized DDs.

Melee RDMs often get hassled because they A) pull out their swords at the wrong time, and B) are generally not geared well enough to be effective. Someone on BG make a good point a few weeks ago: if in a pickup group doing something easy (like a +1 seal NM), and a RDM pulled out an Almace and high-end melee gear, would that bother you? I thought about, and yeah, I doubt I'd mind a RDM meleeing in that situation provided the group isn't debuffed to hell and dying. It's gotta be better than a full pink melee-thing, and I appreciate someone who can think and put real effort into their gear, macros, and playstyle.

So, while you might think Cure V a good addition ...

I never said such a thing. I said:

I do think Cure5 will happen by 99.

I said nothing about Cure5 being a "good addition." I merely said that I thought it would happen.

At current, a 99 RDM/WHM and a 99 SCH/RDM aren't going to be all that different. And in the game's current climate, neither job are particularly a first choice.

Thankfully, I don't think RDM and SCH will be too similar come 99 (I also think RDM should be /SCH, not /WHM). I think RDM will skew more towards support and enfeebling while SCH will be better at nuking and crowd control (AoE Gravity on a pack of mobs is a thing of beauty, as one example).

Exit Abyssea and a RDM won't be aggressively healing while throwing out nukes. MP just doesn't support it.

I've found out, by accident, that RDM's MP supply will still be fine while healing aggressively and nuking. I've done it by accident a few times in Abyssea after infusing Merciless Matriarch instead of Minikin Monstrosity. With a 7MP/tick Refresh2 (applied with Composure, obviously) and an additional 4MP/tick in my idle set, I didn't need to make any adjustments to my playstyle. I did have to use Convert 2 or 3 times over the course of a few hours, but I didn't come remotely close to riding the timer. I honestly thought I'd have more MP issues than I actually did.

SCH conflicts through Arts use, as well. RDM's simple distinction from SCH should be the frontline aspect ...

As I previously mentioned, I believe RDM's distinctions should be in the support and enfeebling departments as well as the capacity to cast a wide range of spells without the need, like SCH, to switch arts and use charges (although this does affect RDM/SCH to an extent). SCH's better capacity for crowd control and nuking is what differentiates it from RDM in my opinion. SCH's functional limitations by arts and charges are the limiting factor which pulls it back from 'overpowered' territory. It's not as speedy and flexible as RDM and needs much more forethought.

I've never been fully comfortable using stances in FFXI as I don't like the limitations that usually come with them. This is why I don't want to level SCH, and it's why I'll likely struggle somewhat to adjust to RDM/SCH when I eventually finish leveling that subjob to 49.

We, the players, unfortunately perverted that intent into brute force healing.

And I believe players did this because RDM frankly isn't very good at melee but is a very good mage.

Malamasala

06-09-2011, 02:30 AM

I dunno...to me it just seems like icing on the cake noting ground breaking.

"SE: Oh here you go summoners here is your cake enjoy."

I see it is one of those "should have been in the game from the start" parts. Like dual wield for THF. Except seeing how SE went with THF, I guess SMN will get Staff Mastery at 95.

SE just keeps ignoring SMN for what it is.

Avatars should be used primarly. Too bad they have too long recast on Rages, so you have to swap to something else between.
Swapping to spirits doesn't help, because they are too random. Better swap to something else.
Next up is staff, your last resort as a Summoner... and that sucks terribly as well.
Leaving you the backup choice of casting cures from your /WHM sub.

Either they fix staff melee, spirits, or BPs. We can't keep going as the job who has 3 options that all sucks so we turn to our subjob spell selection.

Seriha

06-09-2011, 02:49 AM

I'd chalk it up more to a shortage of healers and making a last resort more tolerable with it, but the overall lack of interest in people playing support roles isn't a unique thing to FFXI. It is, nonetheless, a route people can come to socially exploit if they find the right suckers, as RDMs didn't really endgame for RDM gear. There was far too little of that to be had from Kings, Sky, or Sea and the continued trend of slow or stagnant growth with the cap increases are a big part of our issue. Regardless, melee and support aren't mutually exclusive terms.

But as I said before on the RDM board, if you're more keen on mage updates, make a thread devoted to that instead of pissing in the cheerios of the melee camp and trying to banish us off into solo land or some niche scenario where you expect melee RDMs, that you frown upon, will magically have an Almace whose sole purpose is for stronger melee. Then again, they'd have be giving up MM/Beyond/Ultimate if you want them being anything of a decent nuker alongside the melee. Being super all at once, which seems to be this nagging fear people have, isn't possible with MP constraints. And if you weren't running out of MP curing and nuking often without MM on, I'll just say you weren't being aggressive enough. It's not hard to run out just spamming Blizzard III and IV when timers are up, as was what I pretty much did when working on my Ice staff in the various Abyssea zones with 16/tic over your 7. Sure, meds can prolong things a bit, but they're never a guarantee. And again, all of this goes out the window once we exit Abyssea.

Greatguardian

06-09-2011, 03:45 AM

A WoE sword is arguably less work than a single TotM staff. There is absolutely no excuse not to have Chant du Cygne for anyone who is even half serious about wanting to pursue melee options on RDM. Period.

Thank you for reaffirming my point about mutually antagonistic and mutually appreciative roles, though. Healing/Buffing and DD'ing? Appreciative. Nuking and DD'ing? Antagonistic. A good RDM, whose primary party role is Healing, will likely do more damage by adding Melee/CdC than adding Nukes. Especially if there is a Bard or a Dancer in the party. Haste is a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything.

Supersun

06-09-2011, 04:12 AM

And I believe players did this because RDM frankly isn't very good at melee but is a very good mage.

Catch 22

SCH's functional limitations by arts and charges are the limiting factor which pulls it back from 'overpowered' territory. It's not as speedy and flexible as RDM and needs much more forethought.

What limiting factor? The 2-3 second JA delay from switching to one art to another and possibly popping the addendum?

The recast on Light Arts ad Dark Arts is one minute. If you need to switch from your current Dark Arts, to Light Arts, then back to Dark Arts, then back to Light Arts again in under a minute that's not a problem with the job's flexibility but something else.

Likewise Sch gets a stratagem every 48 seconds and can hold up to 5 at the same time. They have a toolbox of JAs for their spells that they can use more often then a Thf uses Sneak Attack.

Sch should focus on Nuking and Crowd Control...isn't that just Black Mage -1 because I thought that was Black Mages role. You also neglected the fact that Scholars have a White Magic side. Should they just never use that in any situation that matters since they don't have a specialized role for their Light Arts?

You say that Rdm should be an enhancer, but how can you honestly say that is the direction Rdm is heading? If any Sch is heading in that direction. More then HALF of Schs new spells since 75+ have been Enhancing spells (well, same with Rdm but self targeting spells don't do a whole lot of good with as an "enhancer"). That and pretty much anything Rdm gets that is enhancing Whm also gets but is also AoE.

I'm not exactly making a baseless claim that Red Mage really only has 2 directions it can travel as a job without homogenizing it. It can really only travel in an enfeebling route and a melee generalist route. This wouldn't be a problem if SE didn't make a conceptually superior Red Mage with stances minus the melee. You may not like stances, but that's no reason to hold Red Mage back as a Sch -1 for the rest of the game.

A WoE sword is arguably less work than a single TotM staff. There is absolutely no excuse not to have Chant du Cygne for anyone who is even half serious about wanting to pursue melee options on RDM. Period.

I disagree by a LONG shot. A TotM staff is stupidly easy to get on Red Mage between partying for staff kills inside of abyssea or just meleeing things down to low HP outside of abyssea then landing a killing shot. The last few trials tend to take a little time, but it's nothing difficult and progress does get made.

WoE is one of the biggest luck crapfests in this game and as it stands atm if you don't have a pet job you likely won't get invited unless you static with a few friends in flux 2 or try and solo for coins in flux 3 which is painfully slow.

There's a reason people joke about how getting an Emp is easier then an WoE (especially for the benefit gained)

Greatguardian

06-09-2011, 04:22 AM

Getting an Emp is tons easier than a WoE for someone with a mule, with a high level of game skill, or with friends who are solid at the game and can keep a schedule.

Getting a WoE is possible, over time, for anyone. That's why it is absolutely a reasonable requirement. If a RDM isn't using Chant du Cygne, what the hell are they melee'ing with anyways? Death Blossom (which can arguably take longer to get if you don't have Nyzul complete)? Fast Blade? They're definitely not getting Vorpal Blade with a mage or Nin sub, and Rdm/War is total crap.

Edit: Dare I even suggest Sanguine Blade? =/ I don't even want to think about that.

Sparthos

06-09-2011, 04:23 AM

Catch 22

What limiting factor? The 2-3 second JA delay from switching to one art to another and possibly popping the addendum?

The recast on Light Arts ad Dark Arts is one minute. If you need to switch from your current Dark Arts, to Light Arts, then back to Dark Arts, then back to Light Arts again in under a minute that's not a problem with the job's flexibility but something else.

The limiting factor involves almost always being in Add: Black/White for the specialized spells.

If you're on SCH, you're likely /RDM which means choosing your role beforehand. If you choose to nuke, you'll be in Add: Black which means you're locked out of status cures and RR. If you choose to heal then obviously you can't access Sleep II or your high tier nukes. Switching repeatedly wastes stratagems.

A WoE sword is arguably less work than a single TotM staff. There is absolutely no excuse not to have Chant du Cygne for anyone who is even half serious about wanting to pursue melee options on RDM. Period.

There's no way a WoE is less work than a TOTM staff unless we're talking Fire/Light here. You could finish Wind or Ice in a day given you put in the hours.

WoE unless you have a group clearing chambers comes down to alot of luck or sheer grindage as you solo mobs one by one for coins. Even for the casual player, I think you'd make better headwind doing PUG Briareus/Sobek at this point.

But you are correct, any "serious" RDM melee should have (or be working on) CDC at this point. Death Blossom and Vorpal just don't compare.