sadly GM's appear to have dropped the ball

[Anethia]

Earlier this evening while farming cirein-croin lanterns, my LS sadly ran into a spat of bad luck with charmga. While charmed the NM momentarily went unclaimed and was quickly grabbed up by another group. Therebye causing us to lose not only our claim but the popsets we had spent the previous 6 hours gathering.

Now I know this should not be cause for concern, however, my linkshell witnessed this same group of people "steal" cirein-croin from 3 other parties under the same circumstances. We also witnessed them attempt to steal the NM from a 5th party during the charmga/unclaim and failed thanks to a vigilant black mage.

However, where the complaint comes in is in the GM response to repeated calls from atleast 17 people. Or rather a lack of response while we witnessed this party do this multiple times to mutliple other parties. Not only that but the lack of response to the calls that were made regarding this party harrassing people as well. Quite honestly this is unacceptable; and despite the fact I have tried to keep an open mind considering that the game over all has taken a positive direction, I can't help but feel the GM's recently have become less than helpful regarding player concerns.

In this situation 2 glaring problems have come to my attention: the first and foremost is the threat of losing a claim because of a monsters JA even though there are still atleast 2 or more people uncharmed that are on the mobs hate list within the group. And the second is the GM's dropping the ball on issues that are clearly a violation of the Terms of Service, (Hovering over other groups hoping they will lose claim on a monster they worked to pop and then attempt to steal it is a form of harrassment). I know that atleast 1 GM witnessed this first hand and yet still took no action.

SE I respectfully request that you review the affore mentioned problems and take the proper steps to address them.

[Gennadi]

Mobs that go unclaimed are open to anyone else that can claim them. If you can prove you were harassed and is a violation of the TOS then you have a right to a GM call. Otherwise everything else is open to interpretation.

[Greatguardian]

1) This is not against the ToS. I know, it's happened to me once when I was being dumb and the GM told me very specifically that:

"Unless the other group took an action against/on my party in order to force us to lose claim (my note: example would be cure bombing), then anything White is fair game."

They did not break any rules by waiting for you to mess up. And you did mess up, see 2.

2) When Cirein-Croin readies Charmga, the first thing your Mage should do is turn to cast Stun, Dia, or Flash on the NM as the melee get charmed so that the Mage is the one with claim. If a Melee has claim over Cirein and gets charmed, he will go White. If the Mage has claim over Cirein, he will stay Red.

If the mage remotely has a pulse, there will be absolutely no risk of losing claim on Cirein. If you did not know this, well, now you do. Learning things is always nice, and I hope that this will help you prevent losing claim on NMs in the future.

Edit: It is also absolutely not harassment unless they were, you know, harassing you. Taking your NMs is not harassment. Waiting for you to wipe is not harassment. Repeatedly taunting you without provocation or reciprocation, griefing you (eg: pulling Cep-Kamuy on top of you and intentionally wiping so that it aggros your WHM), and other such things may qualify as harassment in sufficient quantity/degrees.

Your mage/group messed up and lost a fair bit of work, but you were not harassed by anyone based on the information provided.

[Anethia]

Well to the uniformed: our blm had put a DoT on it and our war provoked it, but it still went yellow and got claimed by the other group. And the fact they did this 4 times in succession and attempted a 5th IS a violation since that shows they were hovering over other groups to steal their claim. Afterwards they began harrassing us, asking us if we were going to pop it again cause they couldn't wait to steal it again. This portion we have evidence of.

[Greatguardian]

Okay, I really just don't think you understand how the claim system works. It doesn't matter what actions you've taken on the NM.

Only one person ever has claim on anything at any given time. Not a party, not an alliance, one person. That is always the last person to have acted on the mob. Not the person with the most hate, not someone with a DoT (DoTs do NOT keep claim or prevent depop, that is a total myth and has never been true ever), only the person who has most recently swung at, shot at, or casted on the mob.

Thus, when your WAR was the last person to act on the NM and the WAR gets charmed, the NM goes white because the person with claim disengaged. In order to keep claim, the last person to act on the NM before charm needs to be someone who is not getting charmed. Examples:

Here are some orders of events, and the results:
Blm casts Choke on Cirein-Croin
War uses Provoke on Cirein-Croin
MNK hits Cirein-Croin
Cirein-Croin uses Mayhem Lantern
War and Mnk are charmed
Cirein-Croin goes White.

Why did this happen? Because the most recent action on the NM was the Mnk's punch, meaning the Mnk had sole claim over Cirein. When the Mnk became charmed, then, Cirein went White.

Ex2:
Blm casts Choke on Cirein-Croin
War uses Provoke on Cirein-Croin
Mnk hits Cirein-Croin
Cirein-Croin uses Mayhem Lantern
Smart WHM casts Flash on Cirein-Croin
War and Mnk are charmed
Cirein-Croin stays Red.

Because the Whm was the one to take the most recent action against Cirein-Croin, they have sole claim over the NM. Because they had sole claim, and were not charmed, the NM stayed Red.

Is that a bit more clear?

Also, it really is not a violation to wait around and take mobs that other people legitimately screw up on. As long as they were not inducing said screwing-up, they are within their rights.

[RAIST]

kinda on the fence on this one. If it were a group passing by, or there to pop it and this happened it's one thing....but if they were hanging out and effectively camping for the opportunity to steal it multiple times....

Maybe the GM could have restored your pop set or something...not sure what else they could have done to remedy the situation. Unfortunately, it isn't a clearly defined violation....it's just people being jerks. Afraid the server merge is just increasing the occurence of such bad behavior.

[Greatguardian]

Any and all players are 100% within their rights to stand around in any place they choose as long as they choose, so long as they are not directly interfering with other players. They were not impeding their fights. They were not throwing NMs and mobs at them. They were not cure bombing them. They simply took White NMs after a group messed up.

Absolutely, 100%, not a violation of anything.

[Saefinn]

I'd argue that it shouldn't be okay. Potentially people could spend a lot of time getting pop items to find that as soon as say, their tank dies and loses claim and before somebody else manages to regain claim, somebody nicks it making prior effort a waste of time, where as the people who took claim just needed to be at the right place at the right time. What's the point farming pop items when you can just wait for a party to lose claim? Heck, they'll even wear it down for you, making it an easier win for you. E.G. Dhorme Khimaira took out our tanks when he was at >10%hp and had proc'd and before anybody could regain claim somebody took it and quickly finished it off (admittedly it wasn't a brilliant party, but I answered to shouts in PJ in hope for seals). Sure pop items aren't difficult to find, but it was a complete waste of our time, even though we would have won. Of course I am not suggesting that you ought to be an easy win either, but the opportunity is kind of taken away from you even though your party isn't wiped.

[Greatguardian]

Should it be against the ToS? Subjective.

Is it? No.

GMs did their jobs properly. That is what the thread is about.

[Saefinn]

Well I'm passing my opinion. Does it need a new thread? Not really.

Should the claim system be based on hate or on the party/alliance somebody is in? I would think it would be better.

[Greatguardian]

Making the claim system work based on hate only opens the door for major PLD claim-stealing abuse.

Right now, the cure-bomb-claim-steal methodology only works if it moves the NM far enough away from the group with claim that the Player with claim disengages, causing the NM to go white.

If claim was simply assigned to the player with the most hate, any PLD could cure1 + Sentinel/Curecheat/Invincible and cap VE with a fair amount of CE and potentially rip claim off of groups that aren't capping their TE.

Claim being assigned based on Enmity is also very dangerous, since it would cause Charm-wielding NMs to *always* charm the player with direct Claim. It is extremely easy to have more hate than the sole WHM in a group when the melees are charmed, making it significantly easier to steal Cirein-Croin from any group at all; whether they are informed about claim mechanics or not.

Right now at least, any group that knows what they are doing can prevent loss of claim 100% of the time by taking very simple actions at the appropriate times. It is simply a matter of knowing how it works and what you need to do.

[Zyeriis]

I'd argue that it shouldn't be okay. Potentially people could spend a lot of time getting pop items to find that as soon as say, their tank dies and loses claim and before somebody else manages to regain claim, somebody nicks it making prior effort a waste of time, where as the people who took claim just needed to be at the right place at the right time.
That's called screwing up. They might not have wiped but you don't have to wipe to screw up. They've removed enough consequences for screwing up, they don't need to remove more.

[RAIST]

All they really need to do is make the popped NM's use the confrontation status thing they have on missions/quests in other add-ons--renders the mob unclaimable by non-alliance members until it dies or despawns if I remember right. Think it also blocked non-alliance members from taking action on you as well.

[Runespider]

Well to the uniformed: our blm had put a DoT on it and our war provoked it, but it still went yellow and got claimed by the other group. And the fact they did this 4 times in succession and attempted a 5th IS a violation since that shows they were hovering over other groups to steal their claim. Afterwards they began harrassing us, asking us if we were going to pop it again cause they couldn't wait to steal it again. This portion we have evidence of.

Nothing wrong with this and it has nothing to do with a GM, the mob is silly easy and the only difficulty is the charm/lose claim stage. It's very easy to not lose claim so the realy fault is your group, the others were simply farming the NM is another way and simply grabbing the NM off incompetent groups. Nothing wrong with that, it's not very nice but if it works why not?

This is no more a breach of the ToS than if they killed your charmed people and then took the mob.

[Greatguardian]

Killing charmed players is hilarious. Personally, I only do it when the person who's charmed is a friend of mine. But it is still hilarious.

[Sesh]

I've said this before in a previous thread, but for ZNMs if you pop a mob and lose it to another party the popper can actually reclaim by going within a certain range of the mob. At about 10 yalms or so if I pt stole your mob it will automatically turn red for you and purple for them. I think that would be an awesome system to put in since it's alrdy in the game. However me thinks that SE didn't want to spend the time putting this into abyssea, just because of the extra work it would have made for them, with the sheer amount of pop NMs there are.

[Saefinn]

All they really need to do is make the popped NM's use the confrontation status thing they have on missions/quests in other add-ons--renders the mob unclaimable by non-alliance members until it dies or despawns if I remember right. Think it also blocked non-alliance members from taking action on you as well.

I think this is probably a better solution.


That's called screwing up. They might not have wiped but you don't have to wipe to screw up. They've removed enough consequences for screwing up, they don't need to remove more.

There are still consequences as anybody who dies becomes weakened making the fight harder. So when people do screw up it still has a negative effect on the rest of the party, in the example, we had to work a lot harder to compensate for weakened tanks and what would have been an easy win turned into a bigger challenge. So I think it's still a douchebag move to take a mob, after all, it suddenly becomes an easy win, in that example the people who took the mob killed it in seconds because we had weakened it that much. Easy KI for them, easy seals for them.

[noodles355]

Should the claim system be based on hateIt is based on hate. Unless the new person claiming already has decent hate built up (or uses a butt load of VE abilities), then even if they cast on the mob it can still stay white.

For example, Mnk and Whm are killing a NM. Whm is resting and Mnk accidentally disengages. Mob goes white. If you cast dia on it, the mob will still stay white and keep attacking the monk. If the monk does some other action against the mob to claim it again it will go purple immidiately.

[Secondplanet]

i think the unclaim system in abyssea on certain mobs is broken to a extent. Having mobs go white doing a fight is rather annoying if the sole person with hate dies and there will always be the vultures that want to get an easy kill from that. But on a positive side didn't they make it if someone steals your NM you still get KI's even if their party kills it? Atleast that makes things a bit better, but personally i think which ever group pop's the NM should have sole rights to all drops so if it gets stolen and there is still some hate on the field somewhere that all drops go to the party that pop'd it instead of a group who's main purpose in this game is to be jerks.

People always say its the parties fault or your not skilled enough when they steal you mob but wasn't everyone there at one point, have some compassion to those in trouble and help them become better players for a better Vana 'diel.

[Khajit]

While camping you for stealing the mob post charmga is a dick move i have to ask this...
SIX HOURS? WTF?

[Runespider]

i think the unclaim system in abyssea on certain mobs is broken to a extent. Having mobs go white doing a fight is rather annoying if the sole person with hate dies and there will always be the vultures that want to get an easy kill from that. But on a positive side didn't they make it if someone steals your NM you still get KI's even if their party kills it? Atleast that makes things a bit better, but personally i think which ever group pop's the NM should have sole rights to all drops so if it gets stolen and there is still some hate on the field somewhere that all drops go to the party that pop'd it instead of a group who's main purpose in this game is to be jerks.

They can't vulture if you are competent. As for the steal pt getting the KI, if the mob still has hate on the first pt they will get the KI, if it goes idle they will get it.

[Masekase]

While camping you for stealing the mob post charmga is a dick move i have to ask this...
SIX HOURS? WTF?

Yes I cant understand that either 6 hours for a pop set

[Glamdring]

SE has always held that if the name is yellow, it's a free mob. You lose on point 1. If, however, you lost claim while having hate (and you probably didn't, the hated most likely wanderred out of range or had lost hate), well, that's not a ToS thing, but it would be a technical bug. GMs won't do anything about it, but you should report it to tech support.

See, what you are calling Harassment is actually simply bad manners. Let's face it, if a jackass coughs up his monthly fee he can play. You mentioned tho' that they were harassing yours and others parties before "stealing" the mob, if there's profanity and the like, flaming started by them THAT could be reported. But if all they really did is steal your mob? Nada. Best response to that? Be ready to steal it back.

[Hoshi]

But if they brought back hate based claim on mobs there would finally be a use for paladin in abyssea...

:X

[Zaknafein]

While taking NM's from a party/alliance does not make you break the TOS it does however make you a huge douche. Only possible exemption from douche status would be if that party is continually dying, and rr'ing ala Apoc, or if that group has previously done something douchey to your crew.

[Eeek]

Yes I cant understand that either 6 hours for a pop set

After re-reading the OP, it sounds they (maybe?) spent time farming multiple popsets and lost one of their CCs after Charmga.

The group that nabbed mutiple CCs do indeed sound like jerks, but hey, white CCs are fair game. All mages should be prepared to keep claim on NMs with Charm, and besides, all mages should have some variety of quick-casting spell macro'd anyways.

On BLM, I prefer to cast Sleepga on CC when I see it appear in the chatlog (assuming I was casting something else and couldn't Stun fast enough, or more likely, I missed it because I'm a craptacular stunner). It simultaneously keeps claim on the NM and sleeps the melees. If the melees are DoT'd, it's simple enough to kite everyone until charm wears off while mocking them the whole time for being unable to break my Stoneskin. :D

[Tamoa]

If the melees are DoT'd, it's simple enough to kite everyone until charm wears off while mocking them the whole time for being unable to break my Stoneskin. :D

Our Kannagi nin killed me so fast with aftermath up, didn't even get Mana Wall off! lol ; ;

[Eeek]

Our Kannagi nin killed me so fast with aftermath up, didn't even get Mana Wall off! lol ; ;

Hah! I had something like that happen to me once, but only because our MNK decided to Hundred Fist the Attohwa Corse NM (waaaay too early to try to spell that name!) for fun and got charmed right away. Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Mana Wall were all down! lol :(

I'm usually good about keeping up Stoneskin and Phalanx, though, and my mages' idle sets have -42% PDT (-47% at night) along with the usual movement speed and refresh. I can take a real beating before dying. When I pull hate on BLM, I run up the the melee(s) and just stand there and let the NM hit me a few times and /doze before dousing my hate. I like to tease them. :)

[SheKicksHigh]

lol if you screwed up that nm you deserve to have it taken

[JovialRat]

ya sorry to say, once that NM goes yellow its free for all, now its an unspoken rule that we do not claim till that whole party has died.

[Alhanelem]

GMs haven't dropped any balls. They're simply following the rules and terms as they've been given by SE.

[Juilan]

lol if you screwed up that nm you deserve to have it taken

the only time I think an NM should be taken is if everyone dies or most die and the few remain cant hold it while the others HP since they didnt have reraise... people should seriously exercise the golden role, don't steal monsters unless you want yours to be stolen... I swear the things people do to build negative karma and breed hostility towards them baffles me...

What really needs to be fixed are the hate mechanics, someone mentioned large amounts of VE on the monster makes it so you can keep claim, wouldn't it have been even more simple in the beginning if say

hate != 0 monster says claimed? then run that check on everyone in the alliance thats engaged to it? Would of made HNM fights less amusing.

[Alhanelem]

uh... If you have an entire group of people charmed and someone claims the NM, shouldnt your entire crowd of people be chasing them down and kicking their butts, since you're charmed and all?

[Bumbeen]

Claim system should be more absolute I agree. Entire hate list should have to be cleared before it goes yellow.

[Greatguardian]

It is based on hate. Unless the new person claiming already has decent hate built up (or uses a butt load of VE abilities), then even if they cast on the mob it can still stay white.

For example, Mnk and Whm are killing a NM. Whm is resting and Mnk accidentally disengages. Mob goes white. If you cast dia on it, the mob will still stay white and keep attacking the monk. If the monk does some other action against the mob to claim it again it will go purple immidiately.

Not quite. The situation you described would happen, but not because of Enmity. The "Original" player only requires 1 action taken on a white mob that is aggressive or was previously claimed to them in order to claim it. Any "Intruder" player requires 2 consecutive actions taken on a white mob in order to claim it.

Eg: If you cast Dia and then Dia 2 on the NM while the Mnk was getting up, even if the Mnk had truckloads more hate than you, you would have claim. If you cast Dia and then the Mnk hit the NM, the Mnk would keep claim because they only require 1 action whereas you would have required 2.

There is a fairly massive advantage to the "Original" party in terms of keeping claim.

[Meyi]

Should it be against the ToS? Subjective.

Is it? No.

GMs did their jobs properly. That is what the thread is about.

This is true.

I still feel it's a moral code break. The NM can be popped up to three times now, correct? If so, then it wasn't as if they were simply waiting their turn for the ??? and just happened to take up the white NM while party was charmed. Clearly intentional. And for them to say they couldn't wait to steal again is also harassment in my book.

But I'm not a GM and it's not against the ToS. The GMs are doing their jobs based on the ToS, not their moral conduct.

[Hoshi]

There is a fairly massive advantage to the "Original" party in terms of keeping claim.

I disagree. All it takes to lose a mid-charm Ciren-Croin is two blms with stun. I failed to take claim AS the mob went white with flash in such a situation. After that we always had 1 melee with hate stay out of range to focus on claiming asap during charm. People tend to be very aggressive at claiming that mob as it uses charm... which is fine. Wiping the other group when they got charmed was fun. :D

[Mnejing]

Yes I cant understand that either 6 hours for a pop set

Wouldn't be that unreasonable if they were aoe-burning a set, instead of camping Heqet. Other than that no clue. :)

[Greatguardian]

I disagree. All it takes to lose a mid-charm Ciren-Croin is two blms with stun. I failed to take claim AS the mob went white with flash in such a situation. After that we always had 1 melee with hate stay out of range to focus on claiming asap during charm. People tend to be very aggressive at claiming that mob as it uses charm... which is fine. Wiping the other group when they got charmed was fun. :D

There's no need for it to go white at all. See my previous post on page 1 of this thread on claiming mechanics.

[Hoshi]

I disagree with your post. I cast flash throughout the course of the fight in the interest of having hate on the mob. Being ready to cast flash as Ciren-Croin uses mayhem lantern implies that you're not already mid-cure or doing other white magely type jobs. Sure you could argue that really you should have the blm on top of that sort of thing but often they're mid-nuke. The only answer for us was to have a melee sit out and focus on establishing hate as mayhem lantern was readied. People shouldn't be so eager to gank a mob... but I appreciate that that's how things go in abyssea.

[Glamdring]

Honestly, I've always been of the opinion that NMs shouldn't be able to be claimed until they are back to full strength and all abilities reset, if they simply don't despawn. Noone should be able to benefit from someone else's work.

Another option, and I'll have to try it. Like you, I've had mobs taken when I have hate on them (a disadvantage to kiting with +Movement speed... and bard's cast times). If my hate hasn't completely worn (say a DoT) and someone takes it, I wonder what would happen if I call for help? If it works it would be no less than a vulture crew deserves.

[Greatguardian]

I disagree with your post. I cast flash throughout the course of the fight in the interest of having hate on the mob. Being ready to cast flash as Ciren-Croin uses mayhem lantern implies that you're not already mid-cure or doing other white magely type jobs. Sure you could argue that really you should have the blm on top of that sort of thing but often they're mid-nuke. The only answer for us was to have a melee sit out and focus on establishing hate as mayhem lantern was readied. People shouldn't be so eager to gank a mob... but I appreciate that that's how things go in abyssea.

Then cast Dia as Mayhem Lantern is being charged. Or Slow. Or Paralyze. Or Banish 1. There is a huge, huge, huge window to act in before the NM goes White. Unless you are starting to cast Reraise while the Blm is starting to cast AM1, at the exact moment that Mayhem Lantern is used, there is absolutely no legitimate reason to mess up the claim. Even then, that's straight up a mistake on the part of your mages. You should not need to cast Reraise in the middle of a fight.

Hell, why am I even entertaining such a ridiculous excuse? Cirein-Croin uses 2 TP moves back to back, the latter of which is the only one which has the possibility to be Mayhem Lantern. If a Mage is not ready for that possibility for any reason, when they have such a substantial warning, they done screwed up.

Having basic Enmity from flash is not going to do jack for you to keep claim. People being "eager" to gank mobs also has absolutely nothing to do with Abyssea. I appreciate that that's how things go in MMORPGs.

[Saefinn]

I wonder what would happen if I call for help? If it works it would be no less than a vulture crew deserves.

Give it a try. Perhaps next time they'll learn to pop their own.

[Coldbrand]

GMs don't even reply to you anymore, they just give you stupid premade messages.

[Bumbeen]

GMs don't even reply to you anymore, they just give you stupid premade messages.

This has been my experience as well. even after sending a call that said I want a reply from a GM. Does SE even care anymore? I still just got auto message.

[Karbuncle]

Then cast Dia as Mayhem Lantern is being charged. Or Slow. Or Paralyze. Or Banish 1. There is a huge, huge, huge window to act in before the NM goes White. Unless you are starting to cast Reraise while the Blm is starting to cast AM1, at the exact moment that Mayhem Lantern is used, there is absolutely no legitimate reason to mess up the claim. Even then, that's straight up a mistake on the part of your mages. You should not need to cast Reraise in the middle of a fight.

Hell, why am I even entertaining such a ridiculous excuse? Cirein-Croin uses 2 TP moves back to back, the latter of which is the only one which has the possibility to be Mayhem Lantern. If a Mage is not ready for that possibility for any reason, when they have such a substantial warning, they done screwed up.

Having basic Enmity from flash is not going to do jack for you to keep claim. People being "eager" to gank mobs also has absolutely nothing to do with Abyssea. I appreciate that that's how things go in MMORPGs.
This Exactl.

There is no reason this should have gone past the ~6th post. GG Explained it quite clearly. Yes, It sucks to lose a mob, But stop acting like SE owes you the pop and that someone had to have cheated or the hate mechanics are broken. I know I'm angry if someone steals my mob, But i also know if it gets stolen its no fault but my own. I HATE Vultures, but the best thing you can do for Vultures is fight the mob right so they just wasted their time watching the fight.

Now, Maybe It should be different, but the Claim system/etc is probably so fundamentally embedded in the code of the game any change to it would probably have repercussion we can't foresee. Hell, I'm willing to bet the current dev team probably doesn't even know how to go about changing that code.

That being said, I'll repeat basically what GG has already tried desperately to explain.

The person who performed the very last action on the mob is the one with a claim. Example

"I cast spells all through the fight? Why did it go white?" :
<WHM> Casts Flash
<BLM> Casts Bio
<MNK> Hits
<WAR> Hits

... Who has claim? The WAR! He hit last. This means, If for whatever reason, NO one else touched the mob after the Warrior hit it, and he disengaged, It would turn white. The MNK, BLM, and WHM could all Engage/Disengage forever and it would not go white because the WAR was the last one to perform an action, so he has claim on it.

Solution: As GG Said, When you see Mayhem Lantern charge, Cast a spell on it. Make sure you're the last one to perform an action on it. I.E > Charm goes off > Cast Dia > Kite and it won't go uncharmed.

This isn't really a problem if people would quite making excuses for their failure and just learn from their mistakes like normal human beings. stop trying to find someone to blame, realize its your fault, and learn to prevent future mistakes instead of stomping your feet like a child having a tantrum.

Learn from your mistakes, and move on. yell at your computer maybe even to relieve some stress!


GMs don't even reply to you anymore, they just give you stupid premade messages.

GMs don't seem to respond to anything short of "I'm stuck and can't move" These days... Probably short staffed or overworked >_>

[Alhanelem]

GMs don't even reply to you anymore, they just give you stupid premade messages.
Completely, totally false. I haven't gotten one "premade" message in dozens of GM calls. Ask any GM you talk to. I have made a lot of calls (most of them not abuse-related) in the last month.

What you put in the description makes a huge difference. Think what it's like for the people answering the support calls.

Bad: "PooFlingers LS were being #$^*&^s and stole our NM. BAN EM!"

Good: "I want to report a violation of the terms of service by <Leader of gorup's name>."

[Arlan]

Honestly, I've always been of the opinion that NMs shouldn't be able to be claimed until they are back to full strength and all abilities reset, if they simply don't despawn. Noone should be able to benefit from someone else's work.

Another option, and I'll have to try it. Like you, I've had mobs taken when I have hate on them (a disadvantage to kiting with +Movement speed... and bard's cast times). If my hate hasn't completely worn (say a DoT) and someone takes it, I wonder what would happen if I call for help? If it works it would be no less than a vulture crew deserves.

I actually was thinking the same.
It is no fun when people claim the mob you worked so hard for when another PT can easily take it and finish it off from your parties hard work. It is kinda lame how current system allows this.

[Starcade]

Mobs that go unclaimed are open to anyone else that can claim them. If you can prove you were harassed and is a violation of the TOS then you have a right to a GM call. Otherwise everything else is open to interpretation.

Then kill-stealing and griefing are now legal in FFXI. So is "denying the enjoyment of the game" to those the stealers believe "suck" too much.

These mercenary groups, which basically troll every major Abyssean mob these days, basically use this known exploit in the rules and the code to steal content they have no right to.

And if our only recourse is to "suck less", then the only real recourse would be not to even attempt the content. This has been a known cheat since the days that an HNM would be claimed by someone and a competing shell would attempt to disrupt their connection to the game and steal it.

That is just as illegal as this, because it works on the same principle of "if it's yellow, it's free game".

Such mobs should depop upon declaim.

[Starcade]

Completely, totally false. I haven't gotten one "premade" message in dozens of GM calls. Ask any GM you talk to. I have made a lot of calls (most of them not abuse-related) in the last month.


The point is that most of us don't even talk to GMs anymore. We don't get the chance.

[Starcade]

There is no reason this should have gone past the ~6th post. GG Explained it quite clearly. Yes, It sucks to lose a mob, But stop acting like SE owes you the pop and that someone had to have cheated or the hate mechanics are broken. I know I'm angry if someone steals my mob, But i also know if it gets stolen its no fault but my own. I HATE Vultures, but the best thing you can do for Vultures is fight the mob right so they just wasted their time watching the fight.

They DO owe us the pop -- unless they wish to admit that the following actions, specifically stated as illegal, are actually legal:

-- Kill-stealing
-- Griefing
-- Denial of the enjoyment of the game to others

All those aspects of FFXI appear to be completely legal now, because of the continued allowance of this baloney which basically allows mercenary groups to attempt to steal content they had no right to.

If I pop a mob, I should be the only person with the right to declare who can fight it. Anything else is a kill-steal.

[Khajit]

Because SE obviously designed the game to have lawyers involved over every situation where the original claimer or popper decides on whom is allowed access to "their" content.

[Secondplanet]

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.

[Starcade]

Because SE obviously designed the game to have lawyers involved over every situation where the original claimer or popper decides on whom is allowed access to "their" content.

The Terms of Service constitute a contract between the players and Square-Enix, in which Square-Enix institutes rules over which the players can play, but also that the players can know that those rules are enforced.

If I pop a mob, and I do not authorize (by them being in my party or alliance) a person to kill it, they're stealing the kill. Otherwise, it's not my pop.

[Starcade]

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.

I don't believe in that kind of "fun" -- as my interpretation of that kind of "fun" would almost certainly be considered threatening to even describe, much less to actually do.

Most players' "fun" in this game comes from the open monopolization and denial of content to others. It is one way they can basically echo the old Shao Khan:

"It's official -- you suck."

[Alhanelem]

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.
You don't need to "steal" mobs to realize the fact that any attacking or claiming of a mob that is yellow is not a violation of any rules. That doesn't mean people should do it, of course. They're only pointing out that you can't get banned/punished for it.

[Greatguardian]

Edit: Directed at Secondplanet/Starcade, since the continuity was broken

It has nothing to do with loopholes. It is simply not against the rules. Get over that fact.

Secondly, I don't "steal" jack *** personally. I think it's an utter waste of time to stand around while another group kills an NM. It is wholly unproductive. I may not be a vulture, hell I may not even like vultures, but I will defend the right to be vultures. Ever heard the phrase, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Third, games are supposed to have consequences for failure or losing. How severe these consequences are, and in what way they are implemented, are always at the sole discretion of the game developer. You don't even have a shadow of a case because, in order for the claim to be lost in the first place, the original party would have had to make mistakes. The consequence of those mistakes is a potential loss of claim and loot.

Don't want to suffer consequences? Don't make mistakes. Don't like the existence of consequences? Don't play the game.

[Olor]

"PooFlingers LS

I sort of want to make an LS named that now

[Saefinn]

Greatguardian:


Secondly, I don't "steal" jack *** personally. I think it's an utter waste of time to stand around while another group kills an NM. It is wholly unproductive. I may not be a vulture, hell I may not even like vultures, but I will defend the right to be vultures. Ever heard the phrase, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Third, games are supposed to have consequences for failure or losing. How severe these consequences are, and in what way they are implemented, are always at the sole discretion of the game developer.

I wouldn't want to dispute that. It is up to the discretion of the developer completely. Users will have their opinions and they will offer their feedback as to what they do and don't like. It is completely up to SE whether they implement a system to help prevent people taking unclaimed mobs from parties fighting them or not. It is completely up to SE which feedback they listen to.

To me, this thread, whilst initially moaning about the GMs, actually offers feedback and the opinions of a portion of its users. And I think users ought to be equally free to offer their feedback to SE via the use of the forums, after all, one thing SE looks for from the forums is feedback. I am all for people's rights, and it works both ways but that doesn't mean I think everybody is free to do anything regardless of how it affects other people, hence we live in a democratic society and not a anarchistic one. How Final Fantasy XI works of course is neither, you said it yourself, 'at the sole discretion of the game developer', therefore feedback is there to suggest and not to demand. If SE says 'no', there's nothing I can do but try my best to stop douchebags from being douchebags, if it means casting a spell on an NM instead of raising the main tank or hitting 'Call for Help' so somebody doesn't take advantage of us. Whilst some would argue the latter is petty, but I'd find it'd guess people less of a reason to try and steal, plus it's completely legitimate.

As for consequences - weakened characters constitutes as consequences - if the characters are a persistent failure, you won't win and the party could sit around and point fingers, but if they get their butts into overdrive to take down the NM, then they're more likely to win, but the fight becomes a greater challenge. I have found this challenge enough when it comes to people's mistakes. I like consequences because they make a game a challenge, but that doesn't mean I like all of the consequences that may occur. And actually, it's an enjoyable challenge, I would prefer it if nobody died, but people make mistakes and we have to put up with it, having a weakened state is a decent enough of a consequence in my opinion. And don't worry, you're completely and utterly entitled to your own.

[Greatguardian]

If you wanted to offer feedback on the claim system, you could have done so in the two different threads created in the past week or two specifically to discuss such a thing in General Discussion. That is why I was frustrated with your response. If you missed them, it's because no one really cares and the threads fell off the front page.

Both threads degraded into the same two groups trying to talk at each other.

Group A: Has absolutely no idea how the claim system works. Thinks DoTs keep claim, and that being the person with hate means you have claim. Is very upset when their alliance is half dead and they "somehow" lose claim on their NM and have it stolen. Has repeatedly said "If I can't have the NM, no one can", and petitioned for force-depops on loss.

Group B: Knows how the claim system works. Does not "randomly" lose claim. Tries to inform people as to how the system works, and tells people to apply that knowledge next time and to take their previous losses gracefully. Occasionally, "Suck Less" becomes shorthand. Gets frustrated having to explain how the claim system works to every new poster who walks in without reading a single word of the thread up to that point.

Weakness is a consequence of dying. Losing claim is a consequence of failing to properly maintain claim on your monster.

As far as I'm concerned, the debate is very simple. Unless someone is actively causing you to mess up, or lose claim on the NM, then you have lost claim or messed up of your own accord. Once you have messed up, you are forced to accept the consequences of that mistake. If that means you lost the NM because you messed up, then that's that. Instead of being a sore loser about it, calling GMs and berating other groups in /say, /shout, or on forums, people's energy would be significantly better devoted to simply not screwing up the next time. Not only do you improve as a player, but you do not lose claims in the future.

If people don't understand how the claim system works, take 5 minutes and read one of the hundred posts myself and others have made on these boards explaining it. Once you understand how it works, and learn to take the appropriate actions to maintain your claim, you will find that it is incredibly easy to avoid any NM or mob going white.

[Saefinn]

If you wanted to offer feedback on the claim system, you could have done so in the two different threads created in the past week or two specifically to discuss such a thing in General Discussion. That is why I was frustrated with your response. If you missed them, it's because no one really cares and the threads fell off the front page.

I saw this thread as a form of feedback (even if it has its misconceptions), it highlights what in some people's eyes is a problem and I figured I'd comment on it and share my opinion on the matter and what I think should be done. Naturally 1 thread would be enough, but as I can see it's quite common on this forum for multiple threads to be created on the same subject. Most forums I visit encourage people to use the search function before posting a new thread and mods lock duplicate ones so discussion remains in a single topic. I'll try to be more vigilant myself.



As far as I'm concerned, the debate is very simple. Unless someone is actively causing you to mess up, or lose claim on the NM, then you have lost claim or messed up of your own accord. Once you have messed up, you are forced to accept the consequences of that mistake. If that means you lost the NM because you messed up, then that's that. Instead of being a sore loser about it, calling GMs and berating other groups in /say, /shout, or on forums, people's energy would be significantly better devoted to simply not screwing up the next time. Not only do you improve as a player, but you do not lose claims in the future

I can understand your complaint about the sore losers, I see people throw hissy fits around the game and berate others and I think that it's both pointless and pathetic. In the example I used, some members of the party put all the blame on the leader, called him a noob and said he wasted all of our time, when really, it was a team effort, and as it may hurt my pride as a healer, the blame falls on everyone, including myself, I just said to leader what I say to someone every time something goes wrong, "it happens" and it does. Everybody is human and therefore capable of error.

I can understand what you're saying and you make fair points, I suppose my main problem with it is on the issue of fairness (I know, life's not fair), somebody is capable of taking a NM that's just been unclaimed, so they've got an easy pop and maybe even an easy win. I suspect SE wants there to still be some challenge to the game (even if it's becoming less evident) but systems like that kind of create more shortcuts for any lucky sod out there, so you've got the imbalance: one person suffers the consequence for their error whilst somebody else gets a shortcut. Perhaps have the NM depop a few seconds after losing claim, leaving only a small window for a reclaim and anybody outside of the popping party can claim it. So it's not making the game less challenging, it's just making its mechanics work on a fairer level.

[Yarly]

Okay, I really just don't think you understand how the claim system works. It doesn't matter what actions you've taken on the NM.

Only one person ever has claim on anything at any given time. Not a party, not an alliance, one person. That is always the last person to have acted on the mob. Not the person with the most hate, not someone with a DoT (DoTs do NOT keep claim or prevent depop, that is a total myth and has never been true ever), only the person who has most recently swung at, shot at, or casted on the mob.

Thus, when your WAR was the last person to act on the NM and the WAR gets charmed, the NM goes white because the person with claim disengaged. In order to keep claim, the last person to act on the NM before charm needs to be someone who is not getting charmed. Examples:

Here are some orders of events, and the results:
Blm casts Choke on Cirein-Croin
War uses Provoke on Cirein-Croin
MNK hits Cirein-Croin
Cirein-Croin uses Mayhem Lantern
War and Mnk are charmed
Cirein-Croin goes White.

Why did this happen? Because the most recent action on the NM was the Mnk's punch, meaning the Mnk had sole claim over Cirein. When the Mnk became charmed, then, Cirein went White.

Ex2:
Blm casts Choke on Cirein-Croin
War uses Provoke on Cirein-Croin
Mnk hits Cirein-Croin
Cirein-Croin uses Mayhem Lantern
Smart WHM casts Flash on Cirein-Croin
War and Mnk are charmed
Cirein-Croin stays Red.

Because the Whm was the one to take the most recent action against Cirein-Croin, they have sole claim over the NM. Because they had sole claim, and were not charmed, the NM stayed Red.

Is that a bit more clear?

Also, it really is not a violation to wait around and take mobs that other people legitimately screw up on. As long as they were not inducing said screwing-up, they are within their rights.

Why did this thread go past this post? Discussion ENDED when greatguardian laid out the entire claim system for any player to understand.

You screw up, you get screwed. Unclaimed monsters are free game for anyone. This is not a new concept, it didn't start in abyssea and GMs are going to do something if there is something to do.

[Starcade]

Edit: Directed at Secondplanet/Starcade, since the continuity was broken

It has nothing to do with loopholes. It is simply not against the rules. Get over that fact.

In the immortal words of Yuna, "You're a bad liar."

It is absolutely a loophole for that to happen. Square-Enix has the technology to allow a mob which has been aggroed and "wins" to de-pop. It's the only reason you don't have MPK all over Dynamis, even with the new system!

The current vulture system in Abyssea is an illegal exploit, using the loophole that a claimed mob which depops is declared the same as if it were a roaming mob on the outside.


Secondly, I don't "steal" jack *** personally. I think it's an utter waste of time to stand around while another group kills an NM. It is wholly unproductive. I may not be a vulture, hell I may not even like vultures, but I will defend the right to be vultures.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I see a vulture group take a mob, and I will very loudly call the GM. It's kill-stealing, it's griefing, and it's content monopolization and denial. It's content you don't have the right to.

But Final Fantasy XI has a proud tradition of all four of these things, going back to MPK and ability-spam-to-disconnect at Ground Kings.

To hear some of you talk, it would appear that you believe we have no right to content because we lose to it. That, in fact, the "lesser persons" of FFXI are denying YOU the content. We're the problem, then, right GG?


Ever heard the phrase, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

I've heard it -- doesn't mean I believe it.


Third, games are supposed to have consequences for failure or losing. How severe these consequences are, and in what way they are implemented, are always at the sole discretion of the game developer. You don't even have a shadow of a case because, in order for the claim to be lost in the first place, the original party would have had to make mistakes. The consequence of those mistakes is a potential loss of claim and loot.

Right, but that DOES NOT MEAN that someone else can pick up your table scraps. They never earned the right to face that mob. Else, frankly, you don't own the pop -- it just exists in your inventory and, in fact, at that point, it pops to the world, not to you.

The only way, frankly, you could get away with that is to make pop NMs pop yellow, and not pop pre-claimed. I hope I don't have to explain the cans of worms opened by that one.

Think of a pop item as the piece of content that it pops. If you claim that it can "go yellow" and anyone can take it because "you suck too much to not let it go yellow", then neither the content nor the original pop item belong to the entity in whose inventory the item was.

Frankly, all this is is a diversification of all the bot stupidities which hammered high-level content.



Don't want to suffer consequences? Don't make mistakes. Don't like the existence of consequences? Don't play the game.

No. This game would be about the perfect game for those who don't like consequences.

[Starcade]

Why did this thread go past this post? Discussion ENDED when greatguardian laid out the entire claim system for any player to understand.

You screw up, you get screwed. Unclaimed monsters are free game for anyone. This is not a new concept, it didn't start in abyssea and GMs are going to do something if there is something to do.

Then it needs to be reexamined, because, then, you can't go back and then start claiming people steal kills in any respect at all -- even previous acts deemed kill-stealing would not be, with this attitude.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I felt my brain cells dying after reading that.

EDIT: on Topic: What GG Said, Suck LessTM, etc.

[Starcade]

Should it be against the ToS? Subjective.

Is it? No.

GMs did their jobs properly. That is what the thread is about.

And I will be banned the moment I express the level of my contempt for how wrong you are at that statement.

The GMs fraudulently turn their backs on massive cheating, and this is another example of it.

[RAIST]

not cheating as much as it is just taking advantage of a game mechanic, which I guess SE could proclaim is an exploit and take measures against it (like they did with the landscape tweak).

About the only thing I could see them doing about it would be apply their confrontation status I mentioned earlier if they determine it is a big enough problem to warrant taking any action on it. Otherwise, the game is behaving as intended.

[noodles355]

Any "Intruder" player requires 2 consecutive actions taken on a white mob in order to claim it.\Are you sure it's only 2 actions regardless of hate?

[Greatguardian]

Are you sure it's only 2 actions regardless of hate?

Two consecutive actions by the same player, yes. Provoke > Chi Blast is a solid way for Mnks to quickly claim if need be. The same holds true for when a mob/NM has aggro'd someone, even if it has never been claimed. It takes two consecutive actions to claim a mob that aggro'd someone in a different group, even if it starts chasing you after the first action.

[Nynja]

cirein-croin ...the popsets we had spent the previous 6 hours gathering.
I'm not reading 7 pages to check if this was covered, but it took you SIX hours to claim a heqet and kill a cep-kamuy?!?

[Kazen]

Yeah something seems exaggerated Nynja; I think it took me like 8 hours total to get all of my 50 lanterns.

[Alhanelem]

I'm not reading 7 pages to check if this was covered, but it took you SIX hours to claim a heqet and kill a cep-kamuy?!?
He said pop sets plural, but... one pop set certainly couldnt have taken 6 hours, and I find it hard to believe that they failed C.C. multiple times and had it stolen every time.

[SNK]

If it's yellow. It's fair game. End of Story.

[Tamoa]

There's nothing broken about how the claim system works. It's been like this for years, and I see no reason to change it. Avoiding losing claim isn't that hard. If you screw up once, and lose claim - well you know, I'm sure it's happened to all of us. I know it's happened to me. If you continue to screw up then it's on you.



Also, it really is not a violation to wait around and take mobs that other people legitimately screw up on. As long as they were not inducing said screwing-up, they are within their rights.

And yes, this. It isn't grief tactics to stand and watch a group fight a nm thinking they will screw up and the nm will go white.

[Eeek]

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.

This isn't a single player game. Suck Less.

Oh, and count yourself fortunate that other players can't engage, fight, and loot the same mobs you can or other players can't just straight up kill you before they kill and loot the mob you were fighting.

[Sarick]

Easy way to fix this..

When the mob is unclaimed is defeated the drops that popped it not the one who killed it. If your pop is robbed and douchebags steal it for easy kill then the players group who FIRST popped it gets the loot.

100% fix that doesn't hurt the ability for outside alliance help.

[Khajit]

Easy way to fix this..

When the mob is unclaimed is defeated the drops that popped it not the one who killed it. If your pop is robbed and douchebags steal it for easy kill then the players group who FIRST popped it gets the loot.

100% fix that doesn't hurt the ability for outside alliance help.

Great idea! now people can claim a NM and flux out so that a wandering group grabs the NM without realizing they get nothing for it. Sounds like it cant be abused at all.

[HFX7686]

This is an excellent post that needs to be highlighted again so people will read it again and hopefully learn:


Okay, I really just don't think you understand how the claim system works. It doesn't matter what actions you've taken on the NM.

Only one person ever has claim on anything at any given time. Not a party, not an alliance, one person. That is always the last person to have acted on the mob. Not the person with the most hate, not someone with a DoT (DoTs do NOT keep claim or prevent depop, that is a total myth and has never been true ever), only the person who has most recently swung at, shot at, or casted on the mob.

Thus, when your WAR was the last person to act on the NM and the WAR gets charmed, the NM goes white because the person with claim disengaged. In order to keep claim, the last person to act on the NM before charm needs to be someone who is not getting charmed. Examples:

Here are some orders of events, and the results:
Blm casts Choke on Cirein-Croin
War uses Provoke on Cirein-Croin
MNK hits Cirein-Croin
Cirein-Croin uses Mayhem Lantern
War and Mnk are charmed
Cirein-Croin goes White.

Why did this happen? Because the most recent action on the NM was the Mnk's punch, meaning the Mnk had sole claim over Cirein. When the Mnk became charmed, then, Cirein went White.

Ex2:
Blm casts Choke on Cirein-Croin
War uses Provoke on Cirein-Croin
Mnk hits Cirein-Croin
Cirein-Croin uses Mayhem Lantern
Smart WHM casts Flash on Cirein-Croin
War and Mnk are charmed
Cirein-Croin stays Red.

Because the Whm was the one to take the most recent action against Cirein-Croin, they have sole claim over the NM. Because they had sole claim, and were not charmed, the NM stayed Red.

Is that a bit more clear?

Also, it really is not a violation to wait around and take mobs that other people legitimately screw up on. As long as they were not inducing said screwing-up, they are within their rights.

I know people who have been doing end game for years and have been around mobs that flash red/white/purple and still do not understand that DOTs don't hold claim. I have spent many hours arguing with people about this because they wanted to call GMs because they believed people were hacking somehow to get claim on a mob that was DOT'd.

[Sama]

This is an excellent post that needs to be highlighted again so people will read it again and hopefully learn:



I know people who have been doing end game for years and have been around mobs that flash red/white/purple and still do not understand that DOTs don't hold claim. I have spent many hours arguing with people about this because they wanted to call GMs because they believed people were hacking somehow to get claim on a mob that was DOT'd.

Confirming DOT don't hold claim.

[CrystalWeapon]

He said pop sets plural, but... one pop set certainly couldnt have taken 6 hours, and I find it hard to believe that they failed C.C. multiple times and had it stolen every time.

I've stayed out of the arguement b/c really it's hard to piss me off so I'm eh about the whole issue. Just coming in to clarify some info. It was multiple popsets that were farmed, and it was our last one for the night that got stolen. The arguement is more or less thia venting anger about a nin who was waiting for charms to gank other peoples C.C. pops.

He successfully stole one of ours, two from a duo, one from yet another pt, and almost stole one from some japanese group. Generally when we do this I am the blm and I gravity / kite C.C. when charm hits and it doesn't go yellow. Sadly I was thf this particular run, and dispite a war provoking and not dying it still went yellow. I'm thinking someone else in our group did an action afterwards which went unseen and then died. When it was stolen we still had 6/8 people alive and well, there was no chance we would have died if the mob was left alone. The guy was just being a dick to be a dick that night.

As far as harrassment he was a bit of an ass afterwards, but I would be lying if I said it didn't give me a laugh. "We're 27/50 now, you guys have any more popsets?" and a seacom of "AFK, banned." Nothing bad enough to get a warning for, just enough to get a rise out of the people he was stealing from.

On the advice "Suck less," you can only control your own actions. You can try to direct people but whether or not they listen is up to them. It was an odd circumstance in this case b/c the war was waiting above and he voked the second the mob charmed, but like I said earlier 1 of the 2 people that died must have taken an action I didn't see and died afterwards.

[Alhanelem]

Personally, to me, there's a huge difference between happening upon a wiping group and being a literal vulture, standing there waiting for people to fail at NMs because you're unable / too lazy to get your own, because that's just being an a$$ for the sake of being an a$$.

I would rather claim an NM that's about to depop than let it depop; however I sure as hell wouldn't pitch a tent by an NM ???, hanging around and hoping for random people to come by and fail.

[Greatguardian]

I've stayed out of the arguement b/c really it's hard to piss me off so I'm eh about the whole issue. Just coming in to clarify some info. It was multiple popsets that were farmed, and it was our last one for the night that got stolen. The arguement is more or less thia venting anger about a nin who was waiting for charms to gank other peoples C.C. pops.

He successfully stole one of ours, two from a duo, one from yet another pt, and almost stole one from some japanese group. Generally when we do this I am the blm and I gravity / kite C.C. when charm hits and it doesn't go yellow. Sadly I was thf this particular run, and dispite a war provoking and not dying it still went yellow. I'm thinking someone else in our group did an action afterwards which went unseen and then died. When it was stolen we still had 6/8 people alive and well, there was no chance we would have died if the mob was left alone. The guy was just being a dick to be a dick that night.

As far as harrassment he was a bit of an ass afterwards, but I would be lying if I said it didn't give me a laugh. "We're 27/50 now, you guys have any more popsets?" and a seacom of "AFK, banned." Nothing bad enough to get a warning for, just enough to get a rise out of the people he was stealing from.

On the advice "Suck less," you can only control your own actions. You can try to direct people but whether or not they listen is up to them. It was an odd circumstance in this case b/c the war was waiting above and he voked the second the mob charmed, but like I said earlier 1 of the 2 people that died must have taken an action I didn't see and died afterwards.

The guy was a dick. Somebody screwed up. But it is nice to see someone who accepted the loss without getting angry.

It most definitely is the case that you can only control your own actions. When playing with a group, you can only do your part and hope/trust that other people do theirs. It is entirely possible for 5/6 people there to be doing their jobs properly and still lose because someone messed up. It sucks when it happens, but it's just what happens with group play.

I won't advocate throwing the blame on one person, or avoiding playing with others. I think it is perfectly possible for people to succeed at the game with other people, even if they're not ideal (most of my friends aren't, that doesn't mean I don't group with them). People just need to accept that what happens, happens. People are allowed to be dicks, and they're allowed to pounce when someone screws up. Heck, I fully expect to lose my mob if I screw up. It's not that I think every other FFXI player is a horrible, horrible person waiting to pounce on me, but rather that I have no real rights to an NM if I screw up badly enough on it to lose claim.

Regardless, that much anger over losing in a video game is just not fun. That's pretty much what it comes down to. If I lose, I lose. I get another set and move on. I hope they got it out of their system. And I hope, sincerely, that people in general will chill the frumble out about their claim losses and just play the game.

[CrystalWeapon]

Personally, to me, there's a huge difference between happening upon a wiping group and being a literal vulture, standing there waiting for people to fail at NMs because you're unable / too lazy to get your own, because that's just being an a$$ for the sake of being an a$$.

I would rather claim an NM that's about to depop than let it depop; however I sure as hell wouldn't pitch a tent by an NM ???, hanging around and hoping for random people to come by and fail.

In this case this guy was definately being an ass to be an ass. He attempted to steal 2 of ours popsets, failed on the first so he went steal another groups. Successfully nab'd our next pop when it was around 20% hp. We were for the most part all above 80% hp as well little chance of wiping. In any case next time we do this fish we'll keep an eye out for him, and will yell twice as much as we already were to keep our other members on their toes. That or I'll just go blm myself.

[Sarick]

Great idea! now people can claim a NM and flux out so that a wandering group grabs the NM without realizing they get nothing for it. Sounds like it cant be abused at all.

My post wasn't clear, this applys when a group **POP's** a NM "not" > claims. To be honest if someone claims a NM then targets another nob and a group steals it the KI can be given to the person who claimed already provided they didn't die. This is the case even if the player is outside party/alliance.

As for the players who advocate "anything yellow is fair game" I pity them, that attitude puts them in the same category as the persons camping to steal mobs to get jollies. Based on what I've read about this shady character he/she was a total jerk with the utmost disrespect for anyone. He deserves nothing less then someone stealing his account because he accidentally visited a malicious web site. Think of it this way. People who create these sites after all are the same thing in relationship to this player being bottom feeding vulture with no morale, respect or common curtsy for the community. Let karma be the judge of character.

[Greatguardian]

You're calling SNK/Viewpoint malicious and shady? Really? Really?

[Cream_Soda]

You're calling SNK/Viewpoint malicious and shady? Really? Really?
I've played with the guy. ITS TRUE!

[Khajit]

My post wasn't clear, this applys when a group **POP's** a NM "not" > claims. To be honest if someone claims a NM then targets another nob and a group steals it the KI can be given to the person who claimed already provided they didn't die. This is the case even if the player is outside party/alliance.

As for the players who advocate "anything yellow is fair game" I pity them, that attitude puts them in the same category as the persons camping to steal mobs to get jollies. Based on what I've read about this shady character he/she was a total jerk with the utmost disrespect for anyone. He deserves nothing less then someone stealing his account because he accidentally visited a malicious web site. Think of it this way. People who create these sites after all are the same thing in relationship to this player being bottom feeding vulture with no morale, respect or common curtsy for the community. Let karma be the judge of character.

And it's not possible to do the same thing with pop NM HOW? People in this game apparently dont even understand the claim system we have. It's ridiculous to expect most of the playerbase to understand how the new system would work. That's not even talking about all the mkp opportunities you get from the mobs aoe.
Even if they werent doing that a person could legitimately bio a mob to death. What's to stop the opposing groups from calling for help so that the annoying person taking an hour to sit down and DIE doesn't get drops? What's to stop the fact that any old prick can disband from their party at 1% and get all the drops?
Your entire idea brings about more problems and abuses than the current system after 5 minutes of thought than the playerbase has found with the current system after several years.

[SNK]

Based on what I've read about this shady character he/she was a total jerk with the utmost disrespect for anyone. He deserves nothing less then someone stealing his account because he accidentally visited a malicious web site. Think of it this way. People who create these sites after all are the same thing in relationship to this player being bottom feeding vulture with no morale, respect or common curtsy for the community. Let karma be the judge of character.

Ok wow. I'm curious as to who told you what because I'm seriously loling at you for this. Who told you what about me? lol


I've played with the guy. ITS TRUE!

brb camping Serket.

[Meyi]

I never thought I'd say this since it goes against my own moral code, but yesterday my static stole a yellow Briareus that went unclaimed at 1%. Needless to say the Japanese was freaking out. We were kind and invited him to alliance so he could lot all of the items that dropped. :D

[Mordanthos]

we are all fighting over what right this is violating and blah blah blah, when we should really be looking at this horrible childrens style game mechanic where a mob loses 100 percent agro or in this case, the claim, becuase everyone in the group is charmed, dont blame the other group, blame SE for there moronic mechanics that just dont work for anything properly.

[Greatguardian]

we are all fighting over what right this is violating and blah blah blah, when we should really be looking at this horrible childrens style game mechanic where a mob loses 100 percent agro or in this case, the claim, becuase everyone in the group is charmed, dont blame the other group, blame SE for there moronic mechanics that just dont work for anything properly.

That's not what happened, nor is it the problem. Read again.

[Starcade]

If it's yellow. It's fair game. End of Story.

Then it should pop yellow, because "Your Pop Item" is not yours. The NM can be, then, legally taken by any party, abrogating the ownership of the content the pop item represents.

[Karbuncle]

Then it should pop yellow, because "Your Pop Item" is not yours. The NM can be, then, legally taken by any party, abrogating the ownership of the content the pop item represents.

Pop Item represents initial Claim on the Enemy, You pop means you have the initial Claim. They do not represent unconditional claim.

From that point on its in the players hand to ensure this monster presented to them remains their own.

This Forum is up in arms about how simple abyssea is and how easy FFXI, but apparently keeping a mob claimed is super hard?

[Nynja]

He said pop sets plural, but... one pop set certainly couldnt have taken 6 hours, and I find it hard to believe that they failed C.C. multiple times and had it stolen every time.

Thats just it, I dont see how they lost 6 hours because 1 Cirein got jacked, unless they actually spent 6 hours on Heqet/Cep.

I read it was later clarified that it was 1 Cirein that was jacked...but thats not 6 hours lost.

[Greatguardian]

Thats just it, I dont see how they lost 6 hours because 1 Cirein got jacked, unless they actually spent 6 hours on Heqet/Cep.

I read it was later clarified that it was 1 Cirein that was jacked...but thats not 6 hours lost.

It's pretty much already been confirmed that the OP was just exaggerating out the ass to wahhhh and rage about their lost Cirein rather than having any sort of legitimate point.

Losing gracefully is a sign of true sportsmanship, especially when your opponent refuses to show the same courtesy.

[SNK]

Then it should pop yellow, because "Your Pop Item" is not yours. The NM can be, then, legally taken by any party, abrogating the ownership of the content the pop item represents.

We just finished a guy's Ochain from a group of people that wiped to a T3 in the range. The only reason it didn't despawn after Tidal Wave one shotted everyone was because their WHM was out of range and afk when it started beating on her. Was yellow for a good 10-12 seconds before we claimed it and killed it for 5 damage with Chi Blast.

When you wipe to a T3 you don't get to try again because once it goes passive, then it's gone and nobody gets anything. I feel no qualms or shame about killing that T3 because their whm could have killed it with Holy or something but instead she was at about 4% Hp before we took it.

Keep crying harder mental case.

[Kya]

This Post is Pointless cuz should know it charms ppl should had ppl out it rang and kit it.

[Leonien]

I have also been a victim of said actions in the OP.
And GMs also did nothing.

The tos for normal NMs is because GMs dont want to deal with the drama-lama LSs that like to steal from each other.
But this is a different story.

The thing is. It is NOT a normal NM (e.g Heqet). It is a force pop NM (e.g. Cerein-Crion). A NM you spend time to get the pop sets for. A NM you put in work and effort to pop.
No matter the arguement, it is not the same as each other.
The fact that another group receive no punishment for taking another group's time, effort and of course their force pop NM is sheer blasphemy.
It is these kind of things that make it a crime. Where there should be justice. There is none.

[Greatguardian]

Blasphemy? Justice? Really?

It has absolutely nothing to do with how much time, or "effort", a group puts into getting a pop set. That pop set is used to give you the initial claim on the monster, nothing more. It prevents you from having to compete with other groups for a spawn claim. That is the reward you get for putting forth the effort to create a set. You are not, ever, entitled to the NM itself beyond that initial claim.

Once you forfeit that claim, the NM is no longer yours. If you want to reassert your claim, the NM becomes yours again. If you fail to reassert your claim, and someone else claims it, the NM becomes theirs.

Those are the rules. Period. Regale us all with your thoughts on justice as much as you like. That will not change the fact that it is absolutely not against the rules to take an NM that goes white. Ever. No matter who spawned it, or how long it took to spawn.

What is against the rules is taking actions against other players which would cause an NM to go white. Those rules are enforced, strictly.

[Starcade]

Blasphemy? Justice? Really?

It has absolutely nothing to do with how much time, or "effort", a group puts into getting a pop set. That pop set is used to give you the initial claim on the monster, nothing more.


Then it doesn't even give you that. If I can steal a monster, given any loophole in the game which allows me to do so, then it's not even their initial claim. All they did was put an aggressive monster into play, especially because they have done nothing to get on it's hate list. If they can lose the spot because they are not on the hate list, then the monster (as I said before) should only pop purple/red if the content is exclusive to the popping alliance.

Any other result renders kill stealing, content monopolization/denial, and griefing completely legal in FFXI, because the most effective way to advance in Abyssea vis-a-vis NMs is to identify when a group is badly inferior to killing a desired NM, steal it, spit in their face, and tell them to go play WoW.


It prevents you from having to compete with other groups for a spawn claim. That is the reward you get for putting forth the effort to create a set. You are not, ever, entitled to the NM itself beyond that initial claim.

There's no reward unless the content is exclusive to the popping alliance. If you are not ever entitled to the NM beyond the supposed "initial claim", you were never entitled to it in the first place. The only reason that kill steals are not more prevalent is because of the fact that the game has attempted (with some success) to tighten up the situation.

But minus making the content NM specifically exclusive to the popping alliance, the NM was _NEVER_ theirs to begin with, and neither was their pop.

Do you see how ridiculous you sound?


Once you forfeit that claim, the NM is no longer yours. If you want to reassert your claim, the NM becomes yours again. If you fail to reassert your claim, and someone else claims it, the NM becomes theirs.

And that's the problem. No one else has the right to claim it -- EVER. Unless you basically want to say that the initial claim did not belong to the popping alliance, because the monster can not, then, belong to the popping alliance (beginning, middle, nor end).


Those are the rules. Period. Regale us all with your thoughts on justice as much as you like. That will not change the fact that it is absolutely not against the rules to take an NM that goes white. Ever. No matter who spawned it, or how long it took to spawn.

Then it's similarly not against the rules for me to do anything in my power to ensure that NM goes white if I wish to steal it from you. Two can play the loophole game, and you don't want me playing that loophole game.

[Finuve]

all rules are fair, just like all laws are fail, follow them completely without disregard, anything under the law or rules is always justified logically

[HFX7686]

But minus making the content NM specifically exclusive to the popping alliance, the NM was _NEVER_ theirs to begin with, and neither was their pop.

Uh, if the mob is red to you then it is your mob. That's at the absolute bottom of basic game mechanics.

[Karbuncle]

Then it's similarly not against the rules for me to do anything in my power to ensure that NM goes white if I wish to steal it from you. Two can play the loophole game, and you don't want me playing that loophole game.

Actually, You're wrong.

If you're going to whine and complain, you should at least try to educate yourself on the ToS.

Performing Actions which lead to the mob going white (I.E, If you had a PLD cure your tank, then spam abilities on himself to get the NM to chase him, and then run out of range of you guys causing disengage and it going white).

That is "Stealing". It is 100% Against the ToS. There is no gray area about that.

Sitting by, watching a mob, and claiming it if the party wipes, while something i would not do, Is not stealing. The mob is white by that groups own actions, not mine = "Fair" Game.

If i cause it to go white through my Actions = Stealing

------------

To the guy @ top of page. I can tell you're being sarcastic. But Really? We're not going to go into a "Holy crusade" Against SE's ToS because some people apparently don't know how to keep a mob claimed. Some laws are stupid, some rules are stupid, sadly though, some rules we must accept. Its their game and their rules. They could revise them though,

so

If you feel that watching someone fight an NM without taking any action to cause your mob going white or for your group to forget basic understanding of Claim mechanics should be bannable, ask the reps to do so, because thats whats happening here x.x

People are losing claim because its more important for them to run out of range of a 200 dmg nuke, or kite blindly in to the sunset when Crion uses Charmga, instead of stopping and taking an Action on a mob to keep the vultures from getting their meal ticket.

I hate people who sit around waiting for someone to wipe, I hate vultures, they're literally the worst type of player in the game. but really, the best thing you, and i, can do to waste their time is learn how hate mechanics work. Make sure you keep your mob claimed. Its not hard, It just requires you to focus on a fight.

People complain Abyssea is too easy, so giving yourself something to focus on shouldn't be hard?

While all 4 of you may riot for a change to claiming (Well, If Starcade goes it'll only be 1 because he'd probably kill you all cause he assumes you're cheating IRL for getting there before him), but it seems like production time they could save for something that really needs to be fixed.

This is another "problem" that can be easily solved by players taking simple precautions. I hate Vultures, but when it comes to my group, they never get a meal.

[Starcade]

Uh, if the mob is red to you then it is your mob. That's at the absolute bottom of basic game mechanics.

No it's not -- not without some exclusivity that no one else can ever get the mob.

Let me give you another example of kill stealing to explain how this operates:

I -aga a series of mobs for low-level FoV. I can only red one of them at a time -- a common griefing tactic is to steal the others. That is no more nor less a kill steal than direct actions to "turn a mob 'white'".

If the current apparent "rules" stand, NONE OF THE MOBS WERE EVER MINE. The entire concept of "claim" is, in fact, an obsolete anachronism, because all it takes is a cooperative GM to basically steal anything you want.

Besides, if the NM is not exclusive to the popping alliance to the end (be it victory or despawn), then the pop belongs to the world, not to the individual alliance -- and, hence, should pop unclaimed.

[HFX7686]

No it's not -- not without some exclusivity that no one else can ever get the mob.

Let me give you another example of kill stealing to explain how this operates:

I -aga a series of mobs for low-level FoV. I can only red one of them at a time -- a common griefing tactic is to steal the others. That is no more nor less a kill steal than direct actions to "turn a mob 'white'".

If the current apparent "rules" stand, NONE OF THE MOBS WERE EVER MINE. The entire concept of "claim" is, in fact, an obsolete anachronism, because all it takes is a cooperative GM to basically steal anything you want.

Besides, if the NM is not exclusive to the popping alliance to the end (be it victory or despawn), then the pop belongs to the world, not to the individual alliance -- and, hence, should pop unclaimed.

Read the post above yours. It replies to this in full.

[Starcade]

Actually, You're wrong.

If you're going to whine and complain, you should at least try to educate yourself on the ToS.

Performing Actions which lead to the mob going white (I.E, If you had a PLD cure your tank, then spam abilities on himself to get the NM to chase him, and then run out of range of you guys causing disengage and it going white).

And that's just as legal as the current situation -- and would openly be a proposed course of action by any alliance seeking a loophole to steal NMs.


That is "Stealing".

So is the original thing we're arguing -- the point is, if the original scenario is not "Stealing", "Griefing", "Monopolization", AND "Denial of Enjoyment", then neither is taking direct actions to ensure the similar result.

You can't have what is a logical contradiction. If the pop is theirs, the NM is theirs -- absolute and to the end. NO UNAUTHORIZED PARTY CAN CLAIM IT.

If a person can take the mob when unclaimed, the pop was never the original player's, and neither was the NM ever his or hers either! It belonged, then, to the world, and any person can take any action to attempt to disrupt the original player.

This was how HNMs worked pre-bots, from what I've been told. Someone would claim it, and everyone else would rush in and spam the person to disconnection. How that is any different than claiming a lost NM, I have no idea?

If the NM goes yellow, THE FIGHT IS OVER AND THE PARTY HAS LOST.

But that's BOTH halves of it.


Sitting by, watching a mob, and claiming it if the party wipes, while something i would not do, Is not stealing. The mob is white by that groups own actions, not mine = "Fair" Game.

If i cause it to go white through my Actions = Stealing

You're taking someone else's content in both cases. It's stealing in either both cases or neither -- pick one.

[Karbuncle]

And that's just as legal as the current situation -- and would openly be a proposed course of action by any alliance seeking a loophole to steal NMs.

I don't understand half of what you say. But i'll be generic.

Performing Actions to cause a mob to go white = Stealing. NO gray area. So you're wrong.
Watching a Party wipe and claiming a white mob that is white because of that parties actions and not you're own = Fair by the ToS.




So is the original thing we're arguing -- the point is, if the original scenario is not "Stealing", "Griefing", "Monopolization", AND "Denial of Enjoyment", then neither is taking direct actions to ensure the similar result.

You can't have what is a logical contradiction. If the pop is theirs, the NM is theirs -- absolute and to the end. NO UNAUTHORIZED PARTY CAN CLAIM IT.

Unfortunately, While I might actually agree with this, SE doesn't seem too. The only thing I'm defending is the fact, despite if we kick or stamp our feet or cry on the forum, SE has deemed "White = Fair game" (Probably because they're under-staffed with GMs or just too lazy to care about taking actions against people these days). So the only thing we can do is keep our mob claimed.

Do I hate Vultures who sit around waiting to take a mob when it goes white? More then you can imagine
Is it Legal by the ToS? Yes, Saddly.
Do my mobs go white? No. I educate myself.


If a person can take the mob when unclaimed, the pop was never the original player's, and neither was the NM ever his or hers either! It belonged, then, to the world, and any person can take any action to attempt to disrupt the original player.

This is such a devastating attack on logic that i can't even begin to comprehend your thought patterns. I don't think i can type slowly and relate it to reading. So read this slowly.

Pop items are ownership of the Initial claim on the Enemy. From this point on it is in the players own hands to keep the mob claimed them. Think of it like buying an Ice Cream. When you buy the Ice cream, It is now yours, But it is in your own hands to keep it from Melting. The Store isn't going to refrigerate it for you. You have to refrigerate it yourself.

this comparison is hard to explain, But in this light. Buying Ice-cream = Initial ownership of edible product, after that its up to you to keep it "Edible" (not melted) (read; NM Claimed). Sorry if that comparison is hard to understand, its the best i could think of off the top of my head.

Either way, Your pop represents Initial rights to the mob. From this point on its up to the "owner" to keep said product/mob his own.


This was how HNMs worked pre-bots, from what I've been told. Someone would claim it, and everyone else would rush in and spam the person to disconnection. How that is any different than claiming a lost NM, I have no idea?

This is a grief tactic, Once again, Players are forcing a certain outcome. This is Cheating. IF you had proof of this, This is against the TOS. There is no Gray area.

Waiting for a mob to go white = Fair, Performing actions which cause said mob to go white (Force-DC'ing someone <i've never heard of this>, Cure-boming then JA spam, Causing Spike Flail, Etc) = STEALING.


If the NM goes yellow, THE FIGHT IS OVER AND THE PARTY HAS LOST.

But that's BOTH halves of it.

If the NM goes White, By the initial owners fault. Its not "Over" persay, he has the same chance to claim the NM as other people in range (more so, He only needs 1 Action, other players need 2).

I don't know what you're trying to argue because you're so confusing. But I feel i should repeat myself. Claiming a NM that has gone white by no ones actions but the initial claimer is "Fair" by the ToS. Causing the NM to go white by any outside actions then claiming is Stealing the mob, and IS against the ToS.




You're taking someone else's content in both cases. It's stealing in either both cases or neither -- pick one.

Unfortunately for you, This world can exist in "Black and White". there is no "ITS ONE OR OTHER BRO". Your logic again has failed.

Stealing = Performing Actions which cause a NM to go white then claiming it yourself.

"Fair game" = Waiting for the mob to go unclaimed by the original groups own actions, or lack there of.

Do i hate vultures? yah, But really, According to FFXI ToS they are in the right. Maybe this should be changed. But i don't see them revising the ToS this late in the game, especially with obviously understaffed GMs (maybe they're not, But i know 9/10 If i make a GM call I get an auto-response, No one even bother talking to me anymore).

If you feel they were griefing you by watching you fight, You can try to report for that.

Edit: I keep using the word "Cheating" instead of "Stealing" a lot. You're rubbing off on me.

[Khiinroye]

You keep saying content monopolization/denial. I do not think those words mean what you think they mean. I have never heard of anyone going to pop something and getting a message saying "YOU ARE NOT IN XXX LS. CONTENT DENIED." message. There is no "monopoly" because anyone can pop a mob at any time that the ??? is up. If you see someone who you think might be a vulture and you know that your group is likely to let the mob go white, you are not obligated to pop the mob at that particular point in time. You are also free to pop the mob, and maintain claim the entire time, denying the vulture the chance to take the mob from you.

You are entitled to the initial claim, and are entitled to the mob for as long as you maintain claim. Most groups manage to maintain claim until the mob is defeated, and thus there is no denial or monopolization. If you make a mistake and lose claim, then it become free content to everyone, even the initial party. Once the mob is claimed to someone, they have the exclusive right to the mob until they lose claim out of their own mistakes or kill the mob.

Anyone is allowed to take a mob that has gone white from the initial claimer's mistakes from anyone else. If you take the proper actions to maintain claim, nobody can take the mob from you.

My linkshell's policy is to not claim unless there is a full wipe (AoA zombie tactics counts as a full wipe) or if the other group is known for kill stealing.

Here's an example: a kid is on a swing. He has the right to use that swing while he is on it. But if he launches himself off it, and some other kid catches the swing and gets on, then the first kid no longer has the swing. If the first kid lands and gets back on it before another kid gets on, then the first kid once again has the right to the swing. This is not swing monopolization or denial of enjoyment by the second kid, it is simply taking a free swing and putting it to use.

Another RL analogy (better than the mugging one): You are in Times Square with a nice new $100 bill. You leave it on a bench and go to the bathroom or some such, and come back to find that someone took it while you were gone. Appropriate action would have been to put it in your pocket and take it with you. The DC causing a claim loss would be like the wind blowing it out of your hand and you losing it while just sitting there staring, instead of chasing after it (pulling hate and moving the mob). Someone taking action on you to cause the mob to turn white would be the equivalent of getting mugged.

I wouldn't mind seeing a week or two where mobs instantly despawn when claim is lost (not on idle, on lost claim). All these "somebody stole my mob!" threads would become "my mob depopped, FIX NOW!" threads. (lolYilbegan)

[Kya]

once more this is pointless post over nm that Charm ppl some one Delete this post now >.> going same way as other post about new way how mobs should be calm

[Hoshi]

once more this is pointless post over nm that Charm ppl some one Delete this post now >.> going same way as other post about new way how mobs should be calm

There you go with that chamomile tea again...

[Rezeak]

I haven't read the entire topic and honestly the fact people can steal ur mob is a massivly fair trade that u didn't have to do Glaviod or Cloris which are massive time sinks.

the Carabosse > Cirein-croin emperyan path is a really easy path compared to the rest of the emperyan infact i'd consider it the easiest sooooo yea stop being emo.

[CrystalWeapon]

We were robbed, We lived, we learned. Only 1 popset out of the entire 25~30ish? we needed to finish the 50 laterns was stolen. We completed it last night with the same guy hovering over our party waiting for a chance to steal during multiple pops. After the previous incident everyone was more on their toes and said person never got their chance to steal.

While I'd like to see GM's come down and summon Tiamat on people who behave like this guy did, I serriously doubt SE wants to change the claim system again or their policies. If they did they would have commented by now on any of the similar topics.

[Habiki]

I think instead of stealing Cirein-croin people should wait for everyone to get charmed then kill their group and let it depop, and then watch all the whining begin on the forums.

[Kya]

this post sooooooo pointless. Lol i should do that one day kill charm ppl

[Mightyg]

I can see how this could be abused by other groups, frankly in the case of losing claim when charmed, they should enforce a no steal rule, especially with popped nms, these aren't your kings where if you fail you fail, it's fair game. It's different.

[Hoshi]

Needs more GM Dave?

[HFX7686]

If a mob charms, keep your mages out of charm range. Make sure they are doing actions on the mob, especially if it readies charm. Have them kite. It's not that hard.