RDM Auto, why the cap?

[Glamdring]

red mage auto caps at level 74, no idea why, red mage job doesn't. also, troll rdm autos have Dispel, why don't ours? I coulda sworn I've even seen one refresh!

a legitimate explanation please? I personally think that when they raised our lvl cap to 90 they forgot a couple heads, Stormwalker and Harlequin. They both still accumulate magic skill, no reason they shouldn't get spells as well.

given the screw-ups in the whm AI, there are MANY times I prefer to use the rdm frame as my soloing healer buddy. If it actually levelled the way it should that would be a huge help.

[Jar]

red mage auto caps at level 74, no idea why, red mage job doesn't. also, troll rdm autos have Dispel, why don't ours? I coulda sworn I've even seen one refresh!

a legitimate explanation please? I personally think that when they raised our lvl cap to 90 they forgot a couple heads, Stormwalker and Harlequin. They both still accumulate magic skill, no reason they shouldn't get spells as well.

given the screw-ups in the whm AI, there are MANY times I prefer to use the rdm frame as my soloing healer buddy. If it actually levelled the way it should that would be a huge help.

This SO MUCH of this

sometimes you dont really need to be cure VI bombed from whm and rdm auto would do alot more than silence the Immune to silence NM..

[Glamdring]

not to mention not casting blindna on me when I have 30 HP and Bio as well...

[Dfoley]

The honest answer:
The devs dont really understand pup.

Harly has gotten nothing either and they could definitly beef him up a bit.

[Kristal]

The Stormwaker automaton head (in combination with the Stormwaker automaton frame) has not seen any new spells since the level cap was raised from 75 to 90. It's current spell repertoire is limited to level 75 still, and as such has become all but useless in the lvl 90 game environment. Giving it access to Cure V, Stone IV, Water IV, Aero IV, Fire IV and Blizzard IV would do a lot to bring this automaton up to date. Given the Red Mage casting similarities of this automaton head, Refresh and Dispel would also be supportive to definiting it's role further.

The Soulsoother head (white turban) is superior in healing spells while lacking elemental damage spells, but it's healing role is crippled by enfeebling effects of any kind on the automaton and master. The Spiritreaver head (black turban) has superior elemental damage spells, but is unable to heal the master, itself or party members. The Stormwaker head (red turban), with above mentioned spells added, should fill the gap between the two other heads.

Another automaton frame and head that has fallen into complete disuse is the initial automaton: the Harlequin. It's lacking any noticable distinction from the other frames and heads, and serves little more purpose then occupying a spot in the automaton equipment window.

[Glamdring]

now if we could just get them to respond to posts/issues raised in job forums... sounds like people are with me on this one.

[Anza]

The Stormwaker automaton head (in combination with the Stormwaker automaton frame) has not seen any new spells since the level cap was raised from 75 to 90. It's current spell repertoire is limited to level 75 still, and as such has become all but useless in the lvl 90 game environment. Giving it access to Cure V, Stone IV, Water IV, Aero IV, Fire IV and Blizzard IV would do a lot to bring this automaton up to date. Given the Red Mage casting similarities of this automaton head, Refresh and Dispel would also be supportive to definiting it's role further.

Absolutely. I'd differentiate it by also giving it tier II enfeebles, like RDM. Would give it a legitimately useful niche, but nothing overpowering. Soulsoother would still be the choice for party healing and status removal. Spiritreaver would still be number one for magic damage.

[Alhanelem]

It is not capped, it just doesn't learn new spells. Given that RDM only gets tier IV, they may want to leave it this way. Plus, the RDM frame has a better chance of procing !!

If it learns tier V, then it won't be able to do that anymore.

This is a really trivial issue now though, because most people only use white or black, not red.

[Glamdring]

we don't use red because it's magic stopped moving at 72, not because we don't like it. It's still generally a better healer soloing than soulsoother, at least rdm keeps you alive, whm could care less if you die. If they won't fix the whm AI to make it useful soloing mobs that have even a single enfeeb move then rdm NEEDS to grow up and gain casting. And harley just needs to grow up at all. As to proccing, blm would be better if you stopped it casting Aspir2 all the time, personally, I have Minikin on whenever I have a mage pup out in aby for just that reason.

FYI, Drifter is freaking SWEET with sharpshot out. Strong Arm, too, but drifter works better.

[Alhanelem]

we don't use red because it's magic stopped moving at 72, not because we don't like it.False. I've barely ever used red since the white and black heads came out, even before hte level cap rise.

It's only good use now is the slight chance of tier IV magic proc. Which will be ruined if it gets tier V.

White AI is not broken, either. It just doesn't operate the way some people would like. Especially in the current state of the game though, you can usually remove your own status effects to avoid the auto doing it to you.

Also BLM AI isn't "broken", I saw that "bug" report. Real BLMs would use drain and aspir whein their HP/MP is low. If you dont want the auto to cast drain after deus ex, use repair / rest /maneuvers. I would be fine with it using aspir too, as long as there was a way to force it to use something else until its MP was lower- I do not like abusing ADD. I would rather keep my automaton up at all times if possible.

[Jar]

False. I've barely ever used red since the white and black heads came out, even before hte level cap rise.

It's only good use now is the slight chance of tier IV magic proc. Which will be ruined if it gets tier V.

White AI is not broken, either. It just doesn't operate the way some people would like. Especially in the current state of the game though, you can usually remove your own status effects to avoid the auto doing it to you.

Also BLM AI isn't "broken", I saw that "bug" report. Real BLMs would use drain and aspir whein their HP/MP is low. If you dont want the auto to cast drain after deus ex, use repair / rest /maneuvers. I would be fine with it using aspir too, as long as there was a way to force it to use something else until its MP was lower- I do not like abusing ADD. I would rather keep my automaton up at all times if possible.

hell thinking that you will get your pet to proc also is a dumb idea.... just drop it procing wont mean crap most the time anyway unless you are doing +2 stuff....
It doesnt matter that YOU yourself find the crippling AI of the whm and blm easy to deal
the fact is that the RDM SHOULD get spells like a 90rdm like a whm and blm get spells like a 90 whm and blm.
if your just here to say you wouldnt use is so dont do it i would love to use the rdm because nukes AND heals over endless silence on the immune to silence NM is retarded.

Alover DPS would be alot better with the rdm over the whm if you dont need the cures

and the blm frame lost alot of luster inside abyssea because i will NEVER set magic atma and nuke with my pet over coming BLM and its is a PoS in DPS over the VE and Sharpshot frames w/o atma..

[Alhanelem]

hell thinking that you will get your pet to proc also is a dumb idea.... just drop it procing wont mean crap most the time anyway unless you are doing +2 stuff.... It's about the only thing it's good for. If you give it the higher tier spells,t here will be no reason to use the white or black heads, because the red will be able to do anything.


and the blm frame lost alot of luster inside abyssea No it didn't. The automaton can achieve an outright ludicrous amount of magic attack and Abyssea only magnifies that. If your event group is in bad need of magic damage, its tier V nukes can stomp those of a real black mage. Additionally, Not everything is in abyssea.


if your just here to say you wouldnt use is so dont do it i would love to use the rdm because nukes AND heals over endless silence on the immune to silence NM is retarded. Uhm... I hate to tell you this but if your automaton is casting silence and you don't want it to, then you're doing something wrong. You're either using the wrong attachments, or you are commanding it to use enfeebles.

[Drac]

White AI is not broken, either. It just doesn't operate the way some people would like. Especially in the current state of the game though, you can usually remove your own status effects to avoid the auto doing it to you.

Also BLM AI isn't "broken", I saw that "bug" report. Real BLMs would use drain and aspir whein their HP/MP is low. If you dont want the auto to cast drain after deus ex, use repair / rest /maneuvers. I would be fine with it using aspir too, as long as there was a way to force it to use something else until its MP was lower- I do not like abusing ADD. I would rather keep my automaton up at all times if possible.

As a BLM if i could only cast spells every 30s i would not waste my time with drain or aspir, especially on mobs resistant to those spells. It is not working as intended thus it is broken.

As far as whm AI i wouldn't classify it as broken, but i would say that is undesirable. And because the functions of it are undesirable it needs to be reviewed and changed in accordance with a more realistic and desirable set of rules.

[Alhanelem]

It is not working as intended thus it is broken. It IS working as intended, you just don't agree with how it is implemented. There's a huge difference. Not working the way YOU like it != a bug.

As a blm if I could only cast spells every 30 seconds I would still use up my MP and could not Deactivate and Reactivate myself to refill my MP, so I'd still need to use drain and aspir.

The fact that you can ADD is the only reason that we wouldn't want the automaton to cast drain/aspir. But personally, I avoid doing that.

[Drac]

The difference between a working as intended and not, is that you get stuck with no practical way out. If my maton is not @ 100% health, ADD doesn't apply.

I was never the intention of the dev team to trap our matons in a loop where it would only cast these spells. this is a byproduct of NM design and limitations of AI. Only when you combine these aspects that are independently working do you get something that is NOT working as intended. I'm sure the DEV team did NOT want to put this restriction on us. But because there are far too many factors to consider when designing confrontations some of the smaller details will get overlooked.
Since i don't believe that the confrontations should be changed to match this issue, it is the AI that should be change to avoid this kind of unintended result.

[Jar]

It's about the only thing it's good for. If you give it the higher tier spells,t here will be no reason to use the white or black heads, because the red will be able to do anything.
i read this like 5 times and it doesn't make sense.. not even warranting the reply i gave it..


No it didn't. The automaton can achieve an outright ludicrous amount of magic attack and Abyssea only magnifies that. If your event group is in bad need of magic damage, its tier V nukes can stomp those of a real black mage. Additionally, Not everything is in abyssea.
setting atma that would be put to better use buffing the master and having the auto on RNG or VE frame.... overall DPS makes the BLM worthless inside abyssea and for the most part outside as well because of the new weaponskill RNG got. if these is some magical NM i dont know about that is to dangerous for me to go in and punch it than id still opt for the RNG frame winning because of the defense down on Armor shatterer


Uhm... I hate to tell you this but if your automaton is casting silence and you don't want it to, then you're doing something wrong. You're either using the wrong attachments, or you are commanding it to use enfeebles. If a monster has the other debuffs on it and you dont need cure or regen it will cast silence and silence is high on the debuff priority so it happens ALOT...

[Alhanelem]

i read this like 5 times and it doesn't make sense.. not even warranting the reply i gave it.. Then, no offense- but you need to take a crash course in English. It makes perfect sense: If the red head got tier V nukes (since it knows all tier IV already) and cure VI, there would be absolutely no reason to use the white or black heads- The only advantage to them would be a slightly higher skill level.

In short, red head learning the next tier of nuke and cure means white and black heads are obsolete.


setting atma that would be put to better use buffing the master and having the auto on RNG or VE frame....Setting atma that you need to help your group with something they need... well, there's no reason not to do it. I remember the early days of PUP and everyone was begging for more pet gear because they wanted the pet to do everything, it was all about the pet pet pet pet pet. Now you're complaining that someone suggests that they set up atma to focus the pet. The PUP community really confuses me sometimes...
There are many situations that call for many different things, and you're being naive if you think the only valid way to play is by stacking DD atma so the master can pump out WS, something that any random DD can do. Don't get me wrong, I love big smites and Shatterers as much as the next guy, but you need to wise up and realize that sometimes the situation calls for something different. That's supposed to be one of PUP's strengths- flexibility.

[Telford]

Then, no offense- but you need to take a crash course in English. It makes perfect sense: If the red head got tier V nukes (since it knows all tier IV already) and cure VI, there would be absolutely no reason to use the white or black heads- The only advantage to them would be a slightly higher skill level.


Stormwaker only gets access to tire III nukes.

Stormwaker was a nice combo of healing, enfeebling, melee and moderate magical damage to make up for all the Magic Mortars that get past you. At 75 I would often use it when I soloed easy stuff or did campaign, it kept me alive, didn't act like an idiot casting -na's, nuked better than a rdm, and didn't spam aspir and drain because it was slightly out of hp/mp. But at 90 tire III nukes don't cut it.

It should get tire IV nukes, but not cure V, leave that to the whm's/soulsoother, and I do like the idea of giving it tier II enfeebles (and Dia/Bio III) making it the go to enfeebling head.

I also feel bad for poor harlequin, left to collect dust for so long, but that's another topic.

[Alhanelem]

I would be in complete support of changes that gave those heads/frames more uniqueness- just not those that would make it directly compete with the function of the other heads. My bad on the nukes... I really haven't used it in a long time.

I actually have a few special uses for harlequin. It still feels like the best frame to use for the solo ENM60- it's tougher than the mage frame but can still give me cures- just enough for the fight. It's almost ironic that outside of not having the shield, it feels more like a PLD than the valoredge frame actually should.

That said, I've always looked at harlequin as the starter frame- something that's supposed to be abandoned once you have access to the later stuff.

[Jar]

Then, no offense- but you need to take a crash course in English. It makes perfect sense: If the red head got tier V nukes (since it knows all tier IV already) and cure VI, there would be absolutely no reason to use the white or black heads- The only advantage to them would be a slightly higher skill level.

In short, red head learning the next tier of nuke and cure means white and black heads are obsolete.

Setting atma that you need to help your group with something they need... well, there's no reason not to do it. I remember the early days of PUP and everyone was begging for more pet gear because they wanted the pet to do everything, it was all about the pet pet pet pet pet. Now you're complaining that someone suggests that they set up atma to focus the pet. The PUP community really confuses me sometimes...
There are many situations that call for many different things, and you're being naive if you think the only valid way to play is by stacking DD atma so the master can pump out WS, something that any random DD can do. Don't get me wrong, I love big smites and Shatterers as much as the next guy, but you need to wise up and realize that sometimes the situation calls for something different. That's supposed to be one of PUP's strengths- flexibility.

Yeah you didnt make sense because you where wrong i see that now..


also telling that there are situations that you need to use the blm head doesnt make sense because i states that there are zero cases that the blm head with mages atma will out perform DD atma + RNG or VE frame..

nothing hits hard enough to make you pull back.. and even than RNG pulls back just as good and does more damage

if this is just a you like the blm head thing i dont care, but please dont state things that are false.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah you didnt make sense because you where wrong i see that now..It might have helped if you pointed that out instead of just saying "it doesnt make sense." If I didn't screw up with my facts, it would have been a logical, sensical statement.

I'm really confused though why you continued to bash the previous post apart after already addressing it, and compeltely ignoring my next post after that....

It's not an "I like the blm head" thing. It's a simple fact that sometimes different things can be put to good use. Don't tell people that acting like a full on DD (which is perfectly within PUP's ability- I do so myself under normal circumstances) or <insert strategy here> is the only way to play or the only useful way to play it. PUP can do a lot of different things and is able to adapt to different events, and different situations.

[Jar]

It's not an "I like the blm head" thing. It's a simple fact that sometimes different things can be put to good use. Don't tell people that acting like a full on DD (which is perfectly within PUP's ability- I do so myself under normal circumstances) or <insert strategy here> is the only way to play or the only useful way to play it. PUP can do a lot of different things and is able to adapt to different events, and different situations.

ok other than being a DD to the fullest or soloing what other situations are there do you go pup specifically to be 75%of a blm? or do you go to be a pup?

I fail to see ANY situation the blm frame would be useful other than getting azure. These different situations you speak of simply don't exist. with the atma thing in abyssea right now the blm pet is weak because you greatly weaken yourself to make it even do mehh damage~ just as playing as say war/whm sure it works for solo and stuff but overall your crippling yourself.

[Glamdring]

I use the blm head for building Azure, the red can to, but it takes longer. I also use any except red in parties since red won't cure anyone but myself and itself. I just choose based on the damage type we are low on. However, I always preface a whm auto that we still need a healer since he's only good for back-up. Ranger is sweet, but in Aby he's gonna give you a steady diet of Ruby light so alot of parties have issues with it. Still leveling up VE, but supposedly he's awesome when you get him up there and he gives alot of pearl. But blm is prolly my DD frame of choice right now, Azure is generally a good thing if in Aby, I simply don't use it solo because I have issues keeping hate off it for the ADD tactic.

[Alhanelem]

do you go pup specifically to be 75%of a blm? or do you go to be a pup?
I read that as "Do you go to be a PUP or do you go to be a PUP?"

PUP can do many different things.

Additionally, the blm head is not "75% of a BLM" in anything other than spell repertoire (e.g. no AoE magic, no sleep). The automaton can easily beat most black mages on per nuke basis with the appropriate setup. The automaton can cure. The automaton can do ranged attacks. The automaton can melee. PUP can do a lot of things, and you're extremely narrowminded if the only thing you think it can do is melee. Crap, I hate doing it myself, but I've seen people main heal on PUP. PUP is a versatile job that can adapt to do many things.

As glamdring noted- I love using sharpshot, but between your power and his, it can be difficult to avoid getting ruby light unless you're really on the ball in terms of paying attention.

I can solo farm for key item chests on PUP- Put on atma of the ultimate and the ice/MAB atma (forget the name), nuke down a few ephemerals, Swap the ice atma for atma of gales and atma of the ultimate for something else and use gust slash to get amber, then go all out DD for pearl and a bit of ruby. Gold chests galore if you're quick enough. Two PUPs can do it really quickly.

[Jar]

I read that as "Do you go to be a PUP or do you go to be a PUP?"

PUP can do many different things.

Additionally, the blm head is not "75% of a BLM" in anything other than spell repertoire (e.g. no AoE magic, no sleep). The automaton can easily beat most black mages on per nuke basis with the appropriate setup. The automaton can cure. The automaton can do ranged attacks. The automaton can melee. PUP can do a lot of things, and you're extremely narrowminded if the only thing you think it can do is melee. Crap, I hate doing it myself, but I've seen people main heal on PUP. PUP is a versatile job that can adapt to do many things.

As glamdring noted- I love using sharpshot, but between your power and his, it can be difficult to avoid getting ruby light unless you're really on the ball in terms of paying attention.

and you wanted me to take a course in English? i stated the blm pet Is weaker than a blm nothing more the fact that you can change to another frame for diffrent results is the ONLY things im telling you is right. and so far you have yet to answer this..

IN WHAT SITUATION ON WHAT MONSTER ANYWHERE DO YOU NEED TO BE BLM OR WILL BLM OUT DD MASTER + PET DD COMBO?

your auto will NEVER out nuke a blm after the latest few updates, i know my blm for one will do at least twice the overall damage your pet will do. not even using Aoe..

[Alhanelem]

IN WHAT SITUATION ON WHAT MONSTER ANYWHERE DO YOU NEED TO BE BLM OR WILL BLM OUT DD MASTER + PET DD COMBO? in any situation where magic damage is more effective than physical damage? in any situation where a monster absorbs one or the other damage type? There are lots of situations. I did answer it already, you just ignored it. Open your eyes for the love of all that's holy. PUP is a great DD, but it's not JUST a DD.

You clearly don't know how to set up the automaton for magic. The automaton can get more magic attack bonus than all but the best black mages.


and you wanted me to take a course in English? I'm not reading you. Where exactly was my English bad in that post? It all looks pretty clear to me.

[Jar]

in any situation where magic damage is more effective than physical damage? in any situation where a monster absorbs one or the other damage type? There are lots of situations. I did answer it already, you just ignored it. Open your eyes for the love of all that's holy. PUP is a great DD, but it's not JUST a DD.

You clearly don't know how to set up the automaton for magic. The automaton can get more magic attack bonus than all but the best black mages.

I'm not reading you. Where exactly was my English bad in that post? It all looks pretty clear to me.

you cant get anywhere close to a BLM with nukes also almost nothing takes more magical than physical damage anymore try posting a monsters name over what used to happen in old content nothing that is heals by any type of damage is always healed by that in abyssea also and chaing just for the small amount of time it would hurt them is detrimental.

[Alhanelem]

you cant get anywhere close to a BLM with nukesYou absolutely can. And me and a friend took advantage of this to easily duo the antlion NM in Abyssea - Attohwa, as an example. Good luck doing that with valoredge or sharpshot.


almost nothing takes more magical than physical damageAbsolute nonsense. Lots of things do, and there are many NMs out there that absorb physical damage at certain times.


Ever fought culebre? One of the EASIEST ways to beat it is to have the BLM automaton tank it. Yes, that's right, tank it. He will kick its ass and take minimal damage doing it.

[Jar]

You absolutely can. And me and a friend took advantage of this to easily duo the antlion NM in Abyssea - Attohwa, as an example. Good luck doing that with valoredge or sharpshot.

Absolute nonsense. Lots of things do, and there are many NMs out there that absorb physical damage at certain times.


Ever fought culebre? One of the EASIEST ways to beat it is to have the BLM automaton tank it. Yes, that's right, tank it. He will kick its ass and take minimal damage doing it.

Antlion NM /dnc with eva build is a joke... solo

"Absolute nonsense. Lots of things do, and there are many NMs out there that absorb physical damage at certain times." Isnt actually naming anything that's actually fought also I stated. anything that changed from physical absorb to magical absorb changes so fast that coming blm auto with atma and all that crap would hurt your DPS overall

also while you for some reason think that you can even get close to a blm spamming 6K~ nukes
ive SEEN many pups do blm and it is crap ive also done the math and blm auto is SHIT compared to a real BLM
you can cast on a VERY slow delay for about as much as a blm
but a blm will burn all its mana as fast as it can and almost nothing lives for the whole MP pool thanks to refresh atma
toss me more than a single instanace where blm is usefull.
i see absolutely ZERO situations that i would use the blm frame inside abyssea.

keep saying that blm auto beats a real BLM you troll you obviously dont have blm and have never seen a real one.

Try coming back with more than just i am right you are wrong too these posts are getting redundant. insisting that your blm auto can beat a BLM player is overall insanity because you keep stating and thinking that the result will change, when it is quite one sided that BLM players will whip your shit on nuking.

[Alhanelem]

Antlion NM /dnc with eva build is a joke... solo And takes forever, and requires special gear that you wouldn't use for ordinary circumstances. No special preperation is required to do it other ways.


also while you for some reason think that you can even get close to a blm spamming 6K~ nukes
ive SEEN many pups do blm and it is crap ive also done the math and blm auto is SHIT compared to a real BLM Sorry, you havent' seen any one who's doing it right then. I can easily do better than that. It's not crap if you know how to do it.


Try coming back with more than just i am right you are wrong too these posts are getting redundant.You know, I couldn't agree more, because you're doing the same thing. You pulled one random number out of your rear end but that's about all you've done.

I'll give you some of my abyssea #. 5835 bliz IV to Gunge Slug; 5892 Blizzard V vs a mesa wivre; 6487 blizzard V against a licorice (vulnerable to magic). Both mobs oneshotted. BLMs I know have a hard time topping that without a magic crit or their full empyrean set bonus proc.

This isn't just about "beating BLMs," either. You aren't always going to have a BLM around, and there are times agianst various monsters, where you can contribute more by using a strong nuke than by doing something else. any argument to the contrary is invalid simply because it would not be true. It seems that under your logic, You're saying that if it's not absolutely, always, totally 100% better than just having a BLM, then you should never use it, which is horrible poor logic.

oh and if you need another use for it: Go solo Culebre. I can't think of an easier, pain free method of soloing it than having the BLM automaton tank it. yes, tank it. You heard me. You don't need the best atmas for this either. Just repair oils, maybe minikin, a regen atma and an MDB atma. Equip both magic defense attachments and always have 2 water, 1 ice maneuver up. Your automaton will take almost no damage from its attacks and keep hate by nuking it.

When you and/or your automaton get torn apart meleeing Fuath, don't expect me to raise you.

I can keep adding more and more examples of places you shouldn't melee or places where BLM frame is good, but it's not going to change your mind, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Jar]

Actual Damage is calculated by multiplying the following factors in order and flooring after each step..... here are EACH of the things you look for when doing magic damage..

1 Lets Start off with D... your D value on pup is FAR lower than a BLM players because automation INT is ONLY boosted by maneuvers and atma while players get cruor buffs gear and atma

2 multi target damage reduction is for aoe spells only not applicable for pup

3 resists! while inside abyssea this factor is more off null because of magic acc bonuses on atma

4 Staff bonus ! wow i dont really see a pup getting a staff bonus of 25% they dont get any!

5 day/weather mehh not huge but when it hits blm can FORCE it to proc 100% of the time pup cant..

6 lol magic bursts.. are next both can do it but i dont see pup doing it as much because you cant plan it as easily

7 MAB/MDB! pup with 3 ice maneuvers can reach +45 MAB from loudspeakers +10% from optic fiber about 50 little less +60(if nuking ice) from beyond +50 from ultimate and id assume that you would use minkin for 3rd so +160 with 3 ice menuvers(lol 3 wtf)

in just full AF +2 set with 2 MAB earrings you sit at +39 on blm can add searing cape +5and like Artimis medal or ugg for +ill go with 5 tho its more ohh shit look at that +49.... about the same as your pup with 3 ice up ........ than same atma for ... +159....

8 is damage adjustments based on monster type and thats not going to change for either job soo its null too

out of ALL that i fail to see how the BLM that CAN nuke just as hard but nukes MUCH faster will lose.


can i get a this was all fabricated out off my ass again please? id love too see how your going to say pup out nukes blm now..

[Alhanelem]

Thanks for posting the magic damage formula which I already knew for me. That was so informative, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

You just talk about someone doing "6k" nukes, and when I ask for more, you don't give it, instead you give me this B.S.


The automaton can get more magic attack bonus than anyone. More than enough to overcome the staff bonus. You forgot about the ice maker, which MULTIPLIES your total MAB. This is the kicker that makes automaton nukes so strong.

No one does magic bursts planned anymore, they usually happen by accident. If I really want to, I absolutely can plan to do them, however.

D value is lower, yes. but not enough to matter here. INT is still > enemy INT on trash mobs. Additionally, Empyrean gear gives +13 INT to automaton, plus the maneuvers = still a decent amount of INT.

Lets see here, for MAB:
3 ice maneuvers. All calculations factoring base Optic Fiber where applicable.
Loudspeaker I: 22 MAB
Loudspeaker II: 27.5 MAB
Mana Channler: 5.5 MAB
PUP relic feet: 5 MAB
Atma of the Beyond: 30 MAB
Atma of the Ultimate: 50 MAB
Atma of the Bayign Moon: 30 MAB
Total: 170 MAB

Ice maker: +60% to your total MAB, effectively (Multiplier applied immediately after magic attack bonus)

Total: 272 MAB (effectively)

Atma of the Beyond also adds 30% damage for Blizzard V.

You can also push the damage higher with magian trial weapon and an ACP body augmented with pet MAB.

The end result is what matters. You still haven't posted any actual numbers. All you've posted is the theory which I already know.

[Jar]

OMG you put ice maker on lmao and Mana Channeler

total Epeen 1 nuke do you need it? so your going to cut spellcast delay and Wipe all the ice maneuvers you have up just to overload over and over again as you cast at half a blms speed? your failing to prove your point man lol you D int is also a big deal im on blm now and as elvaan i have 81+160 int lmao thats not a big deal? you cut the 50 int i had given you to epeen more MAB omg im done troll wins here xD

also Blizzard V on blufalo 6.3K bro

[Alhanelem]

If you're using activate/deactivate, spellcasting delay is irrelevant. BLMs don't continously cast bam bam bam either... unless they like dying. The automaton doesn't have that problem. Even if it dies, you can just bring it right back. Also, the mana channeler is only 5 MAB. I could take it off and the numbers wouldn't be much different. It was simply to illustrate what is possible.

Look, try to wrap your head around this: No one's saying that the blm puppet is there specifically to replace a black mage. It still pumps out respectable numbers that other players must put forth effort in order to achieve. It is there for utility and flexibility, two traits you don't seem to comprehend. There are mobs out there that you don't want to get close to. And before you say "just go BLM" not everyone wants to play BLM. The automaton can also do things players can't, like cast while moving, which is extremely useful. No one is here trying to say that DDing on pup is bad and BLM puppet is just flat out better. No one is saying this. It does, however, have its uses. Crap is situational.


you cut the 50 int i had given you to epeen more MAB omg im done troll wins here xDGenerally, MAB adds more damage than INT. unless your INT is so low that you're recieving a penalty to damage.

You're darn right you're a troll. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I guess your "I am a jerk" signature should have clued me in. Time to ignorelist you and find someone worthy of discussing with.

[Jar]

If you're using activate/deactivate, spellcasting delay is irrelevant. BLMs don't continously cast bam bam bam either... unless they like dying. The automaton doesn't have that problem. Even if it dies, you can just bring it right back. Also, the mana channeler is only 5 MAB. I could take it off and the numbers wouldn't be much different. It was simply to illustrate what is possible.

Look, try to wrap your head around this: No one's saying that the blm puppet is there specifically to replace a black mage. It still pumps out respectable numbers that other players must put forth effort in order to achieve. It is there for utility and flexibility, two traits you don't seem to comprehend. There are mobs out there that you don't want to get close to. And before you say "just go BLM" not everyone wants to play BLM. The automaton can also do things players can't, like cast while moving, which is extremely useful. No one is here trying to say that DDing on pup is bad and BLM puppet is just flat out better. No one is saying this. It does, however, have its uses. Crap is situational.

Generally, MAB adds more damage than INT. unless your INT is so low that you're recieving a penalty to damage.

You're darn right you're a troll. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I guess your "I am a jerk" signature should have clued me in. Time to ignorelist you and find someone worthy of discussing with.

yeah every blm cast less than 1 spell a min ............................................................................................................... and the Troll is you not me troll.

just because smn can pop out heavinly strike for alot every min doesnt make them any less useless because its NOT enough damage if you really think a blm will die from going bam bam bam youve never seen how much 1 BAM takes out of the mobs HP.. doesnt take long to kill things and mana wall and enmity douse are things.


i also wasnt telling you that pup cant drop a good number here and there im here to inform you that in all situations a blm WILL beat a pup+blm pet.

[Kristal]

Jar, an automaton WILL outnuke a BLM on a case-by-case basis, and often over time as well. Even in Abyssea.
But they are restricted by cast timers and maneuvers, BLMs are not. BLMs are limited by enmity however. If a BLM can ride the enmity train without crippling it's casting, it can indeed get ahead of a PUP. But very few BLMs have those skills. Mana Wall and Enmity Douse are crutches designed to close the gap with PUP, not steam ahead.

[Alhanelem]

Phew, at least someone here gets it. It's not an end-all replacement, but it can help in a pinch. That's all there is to it.

[Jar]

you guys srsly think that being able to cast 1 nuke about every min (much less than that because you need 3 ice maneuvers loloverload even with good burden its hard to keep 3 of the same maneuvers up and one atachment wipes them every nuke lmao) that beats a blm nuke that you are even close to a blm? sure you get the same spell and you can cast a good nuke or too but not even close to the amount that you need to keep up with a blm that is even watching hate inside abyssea. does your auto ever cast anything but blizzard V? if it isnt riding both V and IV timers (in pup case it would be fire V timer) than the extra 4~K dmg between nukes is what seals the deal.

if you think there really is something that a blm cant go full out on when the DDs are doing the same (my group runs with 4 empyreans) you are nuts i can pop out as many stratigems as i want and nuke about 5 times in the time it takes you guys to wait for cast delay or even more times if your waiting for deactivate. hate is moot becase once it is caped for your auto it will go for the master now and blm can just enmity douse and keep at it nothing last long enough to need more than 1 enmity douse.

if your just going to argue that when you ride overload with ice maneuvers you can drop 1 nuke that beats a blms that your all the sudden better your retarded.

[Alhanelem]

loloverloadeasily avoided with the multitude of overload rate reduction gear available. I have no trouble putting up 3 ice on every nuke. the overload preventing water attachment makes it that much easier.

There is absolutely no excuse for overloading on anything at all anymore.

[Jar]

easily avoided with the multitude of overload rate reduction gear available. I have no trouble putting up 3 ice on every nuke. the overload preventing water attachment makes it that much easier.

There is absolutely no excuse for overloading on anything at all anymore.

yeah i give up .. really you dont even overload now....... what cant pup do than omg!!! errbudy should level it because the AI is perfect we dont need asuran and we are the best nukers evarrr!

you should stop spouting *** if you can toss out the no overload numbers for burden that makes it so you can keep up 2 ice ill belive you but atm even good burden is 15 and all the overload gear (excluding mythic h2h) raises overload threshold by 15. meaning maybe 1 maneuver over what you used to be able to do

you lose 1 burden ever 3 sec meaning to lose what it takes to put up 3 in a row would put you at 2:25ish min of downtime to fully reset burden sure you can ride it for a little while but you WILL overload its mathematically imposable to keep 3 ice up and not overload
also id love to see your burden set putting your int above your pets lol huge waste of space

[Alhanelem]

if you use all three easily accessible items for reducing overload rate, and you use the condenser and throw up a water maneuver before building ice, I unequivocablly GUARANTEE you will NOT overload. You will absolutely for sure get the first 2 ice no problem, and then the water maneuver you used first absolutely guarantees that the third ice will work successfully- either you don't overload, or the water maneuver prevents the overload (and yes, it does work even though it's being pushed off by the third ice).

[Jar]

if you use all three easily accessible items for reducing overload rate, and you use the condenser and throw up a water maneuver before building ice, I unequivocablly GUARANTEE you will NOT overload. You will absolutely for sure get the first 2 ice no problem, and then the water maneuver you used first absolutely guarantees that the third ice will work successfully- either you don't overload, or the water maneuver prevents the overload (and yes, it does work even though it's being pushed off by the third ice).
numbers or gtfo

I Put numbers and added in overload gear and it doesn't add up

[Alhanelem]

Ignore the #$^%(@ numbers. It works. Put on your gear and just try it. You have to intentionally try to overload to make it happen. Numbers and theory are no substitute for actual hands on experience. now excuse me while I one shot my 7th pudding in a row with no overload. My ice burden should be through the roof, but it works just fine. Any overloads that might have happened are prevented by the condenser. I'd be happy to show you a video of me using my water ice ice ice rotation and having no trouble whatsoever.

Side note: Minikin ended up being as good/better than Baying Moon- With minikin, and no mana channeler, I achieved about the same damage as I did with Baying Moon and mana channler. Plus you get the refresh, which means I don't need to wait much to avoid the automaton casting aspir II.

Edit: here's a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6wB6mCq3kM It's even available in high definition for your clarity pleasure- I actually went on much longer than that but the file size was getting to be too much for my 0.5Mbps upload. This is, at an absolute undeniable minimum, very useful for quickly building azure light in a lowman group. When you're done, you can just switch your atmas and frame tp focus on DD and gett pearlescent. PUP is easily capable of getting all four light types in a reasonable manner. Not many can claim to do that.

[Kayn]

Ignore the #$^%(@ numbers. It works. Put on your gear and just try it. You have to intentionally try to overload to make it happen. Numbers and theory are no substitute for actual hands on experience. now excuse me while I one shot my 7th pudding in a row with no overload. My ice burden should be through the roof, but it works just fine. Any overloads that might have happened are prevented by the condenser. I'd be happy to show you a video of me using my water ice ice ice rotation and having no trouble whatsoever.

Side note: Minikin ended up being as good/better than Baying Moon- With minikin, and no mana channeler, I achieved about the same damage as I did with Baying Moon and mana channler. Plus you get the refresh, which means I don't need to wait much to avoid the automaton casting aspir II.

Edit: here's a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6wB6mCq3kM It's even available in high definition for your clarity pleasure- I actually went on much longer than that but the file size was getting to be too much for my 0.5Mbps upload. This is, at an absolute undeniable minimum, very useful for quickly building azure light in a lowman group. When you're done, you can just switch your atmas and frame tp focus on DD and gett pearlescent. PUP is easily capable of getting all four light types in a reasonable manner. Not many can claim to do that.

was this Jar dude actually suggesting pup-nuking without an ice maker?...

i stopped taking him seriously after that. and no at the present state of the game, a blm can't out nuke a pup, a very good blm can be quite on par, but thats it really, they can do a lot of other stuff with magic that pup can not hope to acomplish, but single target magic damage sorry mate but pup is king, we are not limited by hate in any way thanks to deactivate, and outside of abyssea, mp is not an issue for us.

also LOLOverload.

[Alhanelem]

a blm can't out nuke a pupJust so we're playing fair here, lets be clear: the automaton can easily obtian massive magic attack bonus. BLMs can get more, but they need all kinds of gear, some of which is rare. Also, we're talking about automaton and BLM casting the same spell. BLMs do have other nukes and can nuke more frequently (but nuking much faster than the pup will put the BLM at risk, whereas the PUP is basically never in any danger while nuking)

[Drhatchet]

OMG you put ice maker on lmao and Mana Channeler

I lost all respect right here. Especially w/ DaD, you shouldn't give two shits about the recast. If your nuking without ice maker, you are super gimping yourself. You can triple ice off a fresh activate without even using condenser now. No reason to not use it.

EDIT: I know of a few blm who do consistant 8k+ bliz V on everything from bluffalo to most non-resistant nms. I haven't used the blm frame in some time (since capping it way back when 90 came out), but in your vid I saw only 6k+ nukes on mobs weak to magic. Topic is completely derailed at this point anyway :D.

[Gael]

8k+ on blm only if the set proc, its not really often lol.

I kinda have a good blm gear, i only missing the 3 items from voidwatch (and when i will have at least the Genesis locket, i will change my grip to have the critical magic one) : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/43563
I never do more that my automaton, unless i have a set effect.

In the video, the 6k nuke on the pudding is a very poor number for a pup. In fact the guy who did it nuked with his melee gear...
A pup can almost hit a constant 8k on the pudding : http://premod-shdow.servhome.org/pup.gif
While a good blm does only 6kish : http://premod-shdow.servhome.org/blm.gif

Both with MM, beyond, ultimate, light day, Waning Gibbous 76%.

On a normal mob, the difference between blm and pup nuke is not so big, but pup always win in term of spike dmg (of course blm win on DoT, even if its more "can win", cause blm is limited with MP and hate). Outside abyssea, on the same mobs, i always have +500/1k dmg when i'm nuking as pup, instead of blm.

[Alhanelem]

I lost all respect right here. Especially w/ DaDI don't normally like to do the DAD thing, but in touchy hate situations, sometimes it's required. And in those situations, the time between nukes is not a big deal. Better to get your best nuke off in these cases when you're not going to let your automaton cast constantly.


In the video, the 6k nuke on the pudding is a very poor number for a pup. In fact the guy who did it nuked with his melee gear...The lower damage is more because of minikin instead of ultimate (to avoid the automaton using Aspir)- I had higher numbers using ultimate, obviously- I was just trying to illustrate how you CAN spam ice maneuvers without overloading. I do have the relic gear for more MAB, but I do not have magian pet MABs, because I don't care enough about it and 6k+ is still on par with a BLM casting ST nukes. I don't really take too kindly to the poke, but the point remains- if you want to use the BLM head, you can make it kick some serious butt.